Question about Fate series loop/multiverse

Good question! Honestly due to the limited information we have about how multiple universes work the Type-Moon I'd lean to it being 2. 3 is a valid thought though while 1 is almost certainly incorrect.

As far as we know, each route is its own separate universe, so she'd just be summoned the Grail manifests in that same universe.

3 is extremely unlikely, because otherwise she'd know everything about the 5thwar by the time she reached the Fate universe

>>145274237
Except EMIYA.

>>145274237
Nasu did said that every choice in the VN is valid and happens within its own universe.

That's why he can get away with all the parallel universe spinoffs he has been churning out in the past 5 years or so

It's 2 because she's still alive
unlike all the other servants which are basically images

>>145274009
multiverse
fuck kaleidoscope magic

>>145274161
>>145274237
But at the end of HF Holy Grail is nuked forever. That means if option 2 is the case, then she can't jump to other time period in the future, and her contract is moot which means she's practically kill forever in that particular universe

>>145274354
didn't she make a deal with the grail on her death bed or something? if that was the case then when the grail was destroyed then she'd probably die for real

>>145274354
The Fuyuki grail isnt the real Holy Grail or even the only Grail.

Knowing how much of a dick Gaia is, she'll just summon Saber whenever there is a wish-granting device called the Holy Grail

Not like it matters since Solomon nukes all of humanity in all universes in 2016 :^)

>>145274435
Meant Alaya, not Gaia*

>>145274386
No she made a deal with Alaya that if she found the Holy Grail during her lifetime she'd become Guardian after death, that's why time stopped for her at the moment of her death, Alaya is not certainly not going to let such a chance to get her as a Guardian go to waste

>>145274354
So there are a shit ton of holy grails according to Apocrypha. While taking place in a different universe it's highly likely that she can still be summoned to other wars to learn that her wish is impossible. The Fuyuki holy grail is just the best one.

>>145274710
>The Fuyuki holy grail is just the best one
Best one in terms of what? Story/narrative, or is it actually more special than say the endless Grailbowl that is happening in Grand Chaos mobile game

>>145274710
>her wish is impossible.

OP here, I thought that her wish is possible, but the Grail wish fulfilment uses equivalent exchange, so someone/other people would get railed for her to be able to go back in time and undo the past. This goes against her moral so she decides against it. Am I right or did I just dream that up?

>>145274793
No idea about Grand Order, I only have a company phone and can't really put that game on that.

In Apocrypha terms it was mentioned as the greatest grail in the means that it created the most magic power which allowed you to be granted the 'biggest wish'.

>>145274710
According to earlier statements the Church has investigated almost 800 other incidents over the centuries that involved something being called "the Holy Grail." None of them were the actual Holy Grail.

They sent investigators to Fuyuki and found out it was just a mages ritual. It's not the Holy Grail, but a lot of damage could be done from mages fighting one another, so the Church stepped in to keep everyone in line.

But no, Fuyuki's grail isn't the real grail, let alone the "best one." I mean, fuck, it's corrupted by all of the evils in the world. It's literally the worst grail.

>>145274869
Is that mentioned in the Fate route? I do remember that being mentioned but I thought the Grail was unable to change the past. I could be wrong.

>>145274926
I think so. So Kirei goes like "Shirou what is your wish" and Shirou was like "fuck you." Then Kirei goes to Saber and she says "fuck you" too. This implies that both Shirou's and Saber's wish were possible, but they declined it considering how much damage the Grail would do to innocents. Something along that line

It's important to remember that, just like R07, Nasu didn't really have the parallel universes fleshed out, internally. The mechanism is basically a rationalization for any deus ex or alternate universe storyline (e.g. spinoff) that he'd like to implement.

>>145274009
Servants aren't killed so much as de-summoned.

Saber doesn't die in UBW, but she does so in HF.

Whatever the case, she can always be summoned again IF she doesn't break her contract with the world.

1 is wrong, 2 is right, 3 is not confirmed, possible but unlikely.

>>145274869
>>145274926
Her wish is technically possible, but unlikely because
1. The Grail is corrupted
2. There are True Magics that mess with time, so maybe the grail could do something similar. But it would have to mess with time and alter a powerful prophecy related to Avalon, which is beyond even True Magic, so I bet it can't.

Besides, Saber's story is about accepting herself so the contract isn't needed.

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>>145275052
Thanks anon. I guess 2 makes the most sense.

>powerful prophecy related to Avalon, which is beyond even True Magic, so I bet it can't.

On an unrelated note, how the fuck did Saber beats Gil. It says that Avalon is "ultimate absolute protection" that could nullify any attacks and prevent harm to the user. How is that not super duper OP? How is that Ea, the mother of all Noble Phantasm can not break through Avalon despite Avalon would eventually be derived from Ea since its the mother of all Noble Phantasm? I generally liked the VN and looking forward for the next 2 routes, but that final battle seemed like a lot of hax going on

>>145275248
>hax

Welcome to the Nasuverse, where everything is hax to some degree and powerlevels are meaningless since 80% of fights happens on a conceptual level.

Ea is not exactly the mother of NP's, it's an extremely poweful NP (world vs Exaclibur's fortress) that's unique to Gil, so it can be said to be the first NP, since Gil was the first Heroic Spirit.

Avalon negates any attack by transporting the user to a completely different dimension that nothing else can reach.

If every Servant had complete access to 100% of their skills every time, most fights would be completely different, so everyone is locked to some degree because of plot.

>Saber has a crap master that prevents her from spamming her most powerful weapon and doesn't use the most powerful shield that passively makes her nearly immortal
>Lancer has been forced on a scout mission so he can't fight at 100% and have a good fight
>Gil is extremely prideful and only uses Ea on those he deems worthy

And so on.

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>>145275248
>How is that Ea, the mother of all Noble Phantasm
>despite Avalon would eventually be derived from Ea since its the mother of all Noble Phantasm
The fuck are you talking about

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>>145274009
number 2
since she's still alive she will be summoned to any place or time period where there's chance to obtain holy grail in that timeline, it doesn't have to be Holy Grail War

>>145275248
what do you mean with EA is the mother of noble phantasm? it's the strongest NP indeed, but EA does't' have descendant and it's only unique to Gil.
i assume you're talking about GoB right?
also Excalibur and Avalon aren't derived from GoB, it was an original NP made by the fairy in different dimension. Gilgamesh doesn't have those.

>>145275452
>>145275428
I guess I misunderstood then. There's a scene where Shirou pulls out Caliburn and Gil pulls out the original, older Caliburn and rektd him. I thought that Ea is older than everything and similar to Gil, means that Ea is the mother of all NP.

Anyway, if
>Avalon negates any attack by transporting the user to a completely different dimension that nothing else can reach.
then what's the counter? It seems like it's the most OP thing in the universe,way stronger than anything Gil has. The least Gil can do is pull out similar NP, because just like Caliburn is based on older blade, Avalon must be based on something, or Gil should also have Avalon.

>>145275701
The counter would be some stupid spicy meme like

>This attack always lands before the opponent has the ability to activate an ability that negates attacks

etc.

Fate universe is literally kids going

>I shoot you with my eye lasers!
>Nuh uh, I got an eye laser immunity coating
>Oh yeah? Then I shoot you with my anti-eye laser immunity coating laser!

etc

>>145275701
>counter
there's no such thing
not even fragarach
not even gae bolg
yeah, avalon is too fucking OP

>>145275701
There is no counter. Not that it matters, since Saber only uses it once at the end of Fate.

Contrary to Excalibur, I don't think Avalon works like other NPs.

Caliburn, the sword in the stone might be based (as long as legends go) on the sword in the tree so Gil might have a Caliburn, but he doesn't have neither an Excalibur or an Avalon, which were given to Saber by the Lady of the Lake.

>>145275761
There is one artifact that works like that, Fragarach, but even if something of the sort existed for defense, unless Nasu decided it was so, it probably wouldn't work.

The moment Avalon is activated, not even time reversal, cause-effect reversel or nullification would work.

>>145275854
>Contrary to Excalibur, I don't think Avalon works like other NPs.

Ignore this line.

I was thinking that Avalon wasn't summoned to her side like Excalibur, but since it was used as a catalist in the 4th and 5th war, it was there anyway.

>>145275815
>not even gae bolg

Gae bolg got haxxed pretty hard for plot reason. In theory it should be able to beat Avalon.

From the wiki description:
>Once Gáe Bolg's name has been called, the cursed spear reverses the nature of causality, the meaning of "cause and effect" in the order of things, to make it so the cause of the "lance being thrust" comes from the effect of the "opponent's heart being pierced" by it. It determines the opponent's fate simply through its use, an always fatal move that pierces the heart with one thrust. It is also possible for him to activate it without actively striking the heart.[6] It is an attack on destiny itself, and while not a surprising fact due its wielder's demi-god heritage, it is a top-notch power even with its seeming limitations in power due to being a step away from the Authority of the gods.[7]

> It determines the opponent's fate simply through its use, an always fatal move that pierces the heart with one thrust

Saber survived getting Bolg'd because Kirei told Lancer to scout rather than murder everyone. I'd believe that I guess.

But then again how could Lancer loses to Gil if he has a surefire moves that reverses causality and always hit.

Rereading the Gae Bolg description, Lancer got robbed super hard by the plot armored protags. He should've won the grailbowl on paper

>>145275952
Lancers real powers are S class Jobbing.

>>145275952
>Saber survived getting Bolg'd because Kirei told Lancer to scout rather than murder everyone. I'd believe that I guess.

Saber survived Gae Bolg because her Luck stat was enough that the could "challenge" fate.

Funny enough, she would've died if Kerry was her master.

Gae Bolg would not beat Avalon since Avalon transports the user to a different dimension nothing can reach, even True Magic.

Until Nasu goes, "Nope, it actually works this way", it's just the way it is.

>>145275977
Then Gil is SSS class jobbing

At least Lancer didn't get defeated by a mere human who just seriously tried to learn magic 2 weeks ago on melee combat.

>>145276054
Not even the Throne itself can reach Avalon.

>>145276054
>Saber survived Gae Bolg because her Luck stat was enough that the could "challenge" fate.

What kind of bullshit explanation is that?? Wow this series is falling apart real fast in front of my eyes

>>145276087
Not really.

Gae Bolg works by trying to lock someone's fate and then creating a path.

Give someone the ability to change fate and Gae Bolg no longer has 100% mortality rate.

>>145275952
no,in practical nor theory gae bolg will never work against avalon.
avalon isolates the user to a different dimension, gae bolg cannot pierce through dimensions. thus Gae Bolg is rendered useless

>>145276087
gae bolg is a pathetic B rank NP, if you have A rank or more luck, youre most likely to survive gae bolg

>>145276120
>Give someone the ability to change fate

But Saber doesn't have that ability specifically.

It seems to me basically with the "Luck Stat" surviving Gae Bolg is like Master Ball in pokemon. Due to limitation in the Gameboy RAM of not takiing into account every single permutations of RNG, master ball has 1.5 x 10^-15 fail rate and Saber roll that super unlikely chance of master ball failing

>>145276146
>thus Gae Bolg is rendered useless
But Gae Bolg "locks" the fate and reverses causality. Just based on description and writing, one can hide in Avalon dimension all day, but once he/she go back to real world he/she would get pierced.

I don't particularly care about statbooks and grade. I guess the only conclusion is that Nasu's writing when Gae Bolg was being used was utterly hyperbolic false hype and nothing more.

>>145276146
>avalon isolates the user to a different dimension,
Which also means that the user cannot interact with the other (original) dimension, unless the user has something that can interact across dimensions, which Avalon is useless for, because it's purely defensive. So, Shirou wouldn't be able to actually defeat an opponent, unless he goes back, in which case Gae Bolg could interact with him again.

Either both Avalon and Gae Bold are useless, or both are useful.

>>145276298
Pro tip: next try reading the VN below mach 45 speed anon.
Gae bolg will pierce the heart WHEN HE ACTIVATES IT, the curse will fade away once the NP deactivated,
and gae bolg is not a passive NP so it can't stay activated for too long

>>145276397
yes, avalon is pure defensive.

>>145276397
>>145276298
>>145276054
>>145275952
You guys are way overthinking it. It's basically >>145275761

Even the toppest tier literature, like LOTR, or Tolstoy stuff has plotholes in it. Fate started as low brow eroge for niche audience. It surpasses expectation and was surprisingly good for sure, but it is also meant to be not taken seriously. The series is riddled with to many meme writing, intentionally bad sex scenes, and plot armory to be taken seriously.

>>145276772
indeed it has so many plotholes,
but in this case it's not really a plot hole since there's an obvious answer

>>145276817
I'd give you the one with Bolg vs. Avalon I guess. But Saber avoiding getting Bolg'd due to her luck stat is an utter asspull. And then there's also a question on nothing counters Avalon. Saber equipped with a chopstick and Avalon if she's persistent enough could beat Gil, since eventually Gil got to sleep, take a piss and eat. Saber can keep haxing her way through spamming Avalon and stab Gil in the eye with chopstick once he's tired/asleep

I always feel bad for people who get into Stay Night or Zero and then gradually discover the rest of the Fate franchise and realize it's a convuluted mess of exceedingly low artistic merit even compared to those two.


The only other entries even remotely worth a damn are Hollow Atraxia and CCC and both of them are laden down with a titanic amount of horseshit writing as well anyway.

>>145276921
You can make this argument about any matchup ever in the history of mankind.

You can't really call Saber's A-Rank Luck an asspull, it's at worst just a "coincidence that gets her out of trouble" and at best a testament to a main character's tenacity and/or importance.

You wouldn't have much of a story if Cu wrecked Saber and Shirou right out of the gate like that. Same as you wouldn't have much of a story if Frodo was caught or killed by the Ringwraiths early on.

>>145276921
>But Saber avoiding getting Bolg'd due to her luck stat is an utter asspull

It's really not. Luck is literally a measurement of ones ability to define their own destiny and to defy their prescribed one in the Nasuverse, her A rank luck acting as a counter to a technique which uses fate itself as a component isn't an asspull.

It didn't even make it miss or anything, it just lets her have the chance to dodge - if not for her instinct or agility stats, she'd have still been skewered anyway.

And yes, Avalon is absurdly powerful. That's literally the point of it, and it's why in every war she participates in something prevents her from having free access to it.

>>145276921
it's not really an asspull, it's just gae bolg is a nor really a great noble phantasm since it can be countered with luck.

also saber cannot spamming Avalon anon, it consumes so much mana, and gil can fight for days nonstop without getting tired

Fate time loop and throne of heroes never make any sense.

It's just nasu trying to sound smart.

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>>145274009
With Type Moon EVERYTHING IS CANON. No matter what bad ends they are all canon. Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai are weird because only one person can exist with MEODP, which means KnK is in an alternate world while the other 2 are in the default one. Since Fate and Tsukihime are in the same world.

Since Saber dies in a route/ vanishes she has to die in the middle ages to end up in the afterlife which either she goes to Avalon or Throne of Heroes. If I recall she isn't a legitimate "Hero" yet because she is still alive in the past and has basically been taken out of her life to fight in a hgw. It's been a while so probably forgot some stuff.

>>145277051
Gae Bolg's not really a great noble phantasm because on its own it's just a big pointy stick that leaves wounds that can't heal, and that you can also make explode when thrown if necessary.

It's only Cu who is able to use the causality reversing, kill-literally-anything-it-actually-hits attack since its a technique he developed himself.

It's why it's B rank despite how utterly absurd that attack is.

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it's already been stated in the game itself that gae bolg CAN be dodged with Luck, so it's definitely not an asspull

>>145277031
>Luck is literally a measurement of ones ability to define their own destiny and to defy their prescribed one in the Nasuverse, her A rank luck acting as a counter to a technique which uses fate itself as a component isn't an asspull.
Is this explained beforehand? Nope. Is this explained in the VN? As far as I remember, nope. This is some tertiary statbook/author interview shit. It is an asspull without calling it an asspull. How come her A rank luck didn't protect her from becoming Saber Alter? How come her A rank luck didn't protect her/Shirou from any of the bad endings?

>>145276983
Yeah I guess your right in that sense, although I would argue that Frodo hiding from the Ringwraiths is within the realm of possibility within universe as the event was happening but Saber ducking out Gae Bolg needs to be explained in supplementary material afterwards.

>>145277088
I'd like to preface this entire post by stating that it's based on things I read about the Nasuverse over 10 years ago, so the likelihood of things being correct due to the bullshit asspully nature of the Nasuverse.

I thought it was a case where while both Shiki's eyes are MEODP, Ryougi's eyes were different in that they allowed her to see and sever the concept and origin of a being. Tohno's eyes are those that enable him to see the death of a being.

A good example of how they differ would be the TYPEs (which are themselves an excellent example of Nasu's nonsense). Ryougi would be able to view their Origin and sever it, destroying the target, but because the TYPEs supercede the concept of life and death, Tohno would be unable to do anything against one and die almost instantly.

>>145277153
>Luck can change fate

That's literally changing the definition of the word "fate." Fate is something that is pre-described. Jesus this whole thing is a mess

>>145277293
>it's an asspull if a character uses one of their abilities right after being introduced without it being exhaustively explained before
Is Archer creating new swords while fighting Lancer an asspull? Is Gae Bolg itself an asspull? Is Berserkwr having multiple lives one? What about Rider's eyes? Would it have been an asspull if she just whipped out Excalibur and blew Cu away before he could use it?

The answer is no.

So why the fuck would it be an asspull for Saber to use one of her skills when introduced to counter another skill that was from a character who was also just introduced?

And yes, this is explained if you actually bother to read the stat info in the game itself.

>>145277378
fate in our world and fictional world is different moron.
not to mention that in real life fate has many variation in religions or other.
anon i suggest you go back reading harry potter, tolkien or other normalfag literatures if you cannot handle niche works and so easily triggered like this

>>145277378
Changing or challenging fate is literally one of the oldest tropes in fiction.

There are myths literally millenia old about it. Why are your knickers in a twist over a series filled with mythological heroes and monsters making fate a force which can be overcome?

>>145277501
>So why the fuck would it be an asspull for Saber to use one of her skills when introduced to counter another skill that was from a character who was also just introduced?

Because it never explained within the story/narrative. You have to dig deep into supplementary material and even then it's a half assed RPG game answer.

>anon i suggest you go back reading harry potter, tolkien or other normalfag literatures if you cannot handle niche works and so easily triggered like this
There are asspulls in LOTR too. There are asspulls in Potter too. Some asspulls are more blatant than others. IDK why Fatefans get so defensive over any criticism of the franchise, even from their own peers who are also fan of the franchise

>>145277771
anon, the thing is you're making a lot of retarded questions while you can find the answers in the medium you're reading.
and before you even finishing it you're commenting about asspull this asspull that. you can't criticize something that you're yet to understand

>>145277771
There is a reason they tell you to check your stat page ingame anon, this is pretty much DnD.

>>145278153
at this point i'm not sure if he remembers if stat page exist

>>145274009
If Saber dies, then she's dead. She's not a heroic spirit, she doesn't get copied, she gets transferred to where the grail calls her.

Maybe after her death in let's say UBW or HF (as you proposed), she'd get to become a Heroic spirit. So it is possible for her to be summoned again.

So it's 1 and then the latter part of 2 after she becomes a Heroic spirit as the result of her death, her actions, etc...

>>145275248
>>145275052
No, she doesn't get sent back to the beginning of the timeline. She would die.

Again, Saber is not a heroic spirit. She plays the role of a Servant but without being a post bodily death entity.

>>145277378
She has a divine attribute that can changed the fate. That divine attribute being kicked in is due to high luck.

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>>145278281
>She's not a heroic spirit
wrong she's a heroic spirit though not a proper one
>>145278333
it was blatantly stated by saber herself to shirou to not worry about her life since she will not die if she's killed and just got sent back to the point before her death in the past.

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Lancer > Saber

>>145278447
She's not a heroic spirit. This is revealed in the Fate route.

You never seen her go spirit mode like how the other Servants can. She cannot turn herself to be immaterial willingly because she's not a spirit.

>>145278447
>it was blatantly stated by saber herself to shirou to not worry about her life since she will not die if she's killed and just got sent back to the point before her death in the past.

That's bullshit she told Shirou because he kept putting his life on the line. Saber didn't want him to die and she wants the honor of fighting battles by herself as what is prescribed by her own sense of duty.


Saber has giving misnformations before. And so has the other characters.

>>145278281
>>145278333
>>145278507

Servants don't die. Even Saber, as a pseudo Servant is not an exception. Normal Servants are sent back to the Throne while Saber is sent back to her dying bed, ready to be summoned again and again until the breaks the contract with the world or gets her wish granted.

And when one of those two happens and she does die, she isn't sent to the Throne, she is sent to Avalon, and only then will she never be summoned again.

>>145278507
read again, she's heroic spirit and have heroic spirit's traits though not all, do you even know what servant is?

>>145278577
Servants don't die because they are already dead when they are heroic spirits.

Their copy dies but the original that's in the throne is different.

Heroic Spirit Gilgamesh for example, doesn't get sent back. His copy is erased. The original still exist. This is why they don't retain memories of their summonings because their copy died.

When it comes to Saber, she is not a copy. So if she dies, she's dead. But she could be a Heroic Spirit after. That means she will remember everything up until her death. In other words she would remember Shirou. But any elimination past that, she won't remember what happened.

>>145278616
She's not a spirit, period. She's a human with strong powers and blessings who's been summoned right before her death.

In Fate, she was sent back because she didn't die. Had she died, she would have just been dead. In Fate Zero she didn't die also, the grail was "destroyed" and she was sent back.

>>145278682
>This is why they don't retain memories of their summonings because their copy died.
This has been retconned over the years.

>>145278616
saber cannot die until she obtained the holy grail or content with her fate not having the holy grail (fate route)

other than that she will be summoned over and over again to a place or time period whe she has a chance to obtain holy grail, though it's not have to be in the magus' Holy grail war. It was stated in the VN, and DEFINITELY not to encourage shirou.
Read again

another hint: read nasu's interview about saber's possible fate after UBW and HF.
remember that saber got killed in HF

>>145278768
meant to this >>145278682

>>145274009
You're trying to make sense of the convoluted mess that is the plot of an eroge series?

>>145278682
>But she could be a Heroic Spirit after

She can't. Saber is perhaps the only person who cannot be sent to the Throne.

In her dying breath she made a contract with the world and offered her service as an HS in exchange for a shot at the Grail, which worked only because she gained the right to become a HS in life and didn't need to die to enter the Throne like almost everyone else.

Her contract explicitly forbids her from dying before obtaining the Grail. She gets an infinite amount of tries until she gets it or breaks the contract.

>>145278814
Merlin cannot also enter the Throne, btw.

>>145278735
It's in the original work and in realta nua. It's canon. The servant doesn't retain their memory.

Archer having his memory was when his role was a Counter Guardian, not the role of a Servant. He wasn't summoned by the Grail when he was doing his deeds as a counter Guardian.

When a Grail summons, it copies the original spirit. The exception is Saber because her wish was the grail itself, so she was sent straight to the Grail wars instead of her becoming a spirit first.

>>145278768
>saber cannot die until she obtained the holy grail
That's what she tells herself. But she doesn't say it as if she is immortal in face of killing. Rather, she affirms that because of her conviction. She's saying she cannot afford to die essentially.

Again, she is not a spirit. She can die. Spirits are post death of the body. When her body dies, then she can become a heroic spirit. But she'd have to die first.

I don't care what Nasu says, he is contradicting his own work, like he has a lot.

>>145278814
>She can't. Saber is perhaps the only person who cannot be sent to the Throne.
Why not?

>>145278814
>In her dying breath she made a contract with the world and offered her service as an HS in exchange for a shot at the Grail, which worked only because she gained the right to become a HS in life and didn't need to die to enter the Throne like almost everyone else.

Wrong, she was granted the responsability of being a Servant, not a Heroic Spirit.

She can still enter the Throne of heroes after death.


>Her contract explicitly forbids her from dying before obtaining the Grail.

So if she's dead, her shot at getting the grail is forever gone.

That doesn't mean she's a spirit.

>>145278863
>then she can become a heroic spirit

Still nope.

>I don't care what the author, characters or plot says

There is no hope for you.

>>145278863
>That's what she tells herself
at this point you're just making your own fanfiction anon.
and again she's a spirit, her body STAYS in the place where she's almost die, hence explaining how she's unhurt when summoned as servant.

>>145278940
>nope because I say so

You have no argument.

>There is no hope for you.
I'm not an idiot like you who appeals to authority. Think for yourself instead of being so intellectually bankrupt.

>>145278949
She is not a spirit. A spirit can immaterialize on their own will. Saber hasn't done so because she can't.


>her body STAYS in the place where she's almost die, hence explaining how she's unhurt when summoned as servant.
She gets transferred back to the past of her near death after the grail war. But that's not being a spirit. She has to die to be a spirit first. Being close to death is not death.

She's unhurt when summoned as a Servant because the grail heals her and she is closed to Excalibur's sheath (Avalon).

>>145278863
Yes it was canon in stay night, I'm not denying that. But in later works like Grand Order (which are also unfortunately canon) Servants can recall their memories of wars they've been summoned into.

>>145279064
Summoned by the grail? I didn't know about Fate Grand Order.

Then there's a contradiction. It's safer to say Nasu changed his mind or was being inconsistent unknowingly. Fate Grand Order is it's own thing with its own rule.

But we're talking about Fate Stay Night.

>>145278932
Saber can't enter the without being on her own volition Throne because of Avalon.

By pulling the sword out of the stone, she is The Once and Future King.

There is no Future King if she dies, so as a part of her kingly duties, she must stay in Avalon until then. However, the world changed and her role as a king is no longer needed, so she can just stay dreaming in Avalon, which is where Last Episode comes in.

Merlin explains all of this.

And again, she can't die until she obtains the Grail, which is why she is summoned again and again from her death bed. Her time will only flow if she gets the Grail, or breaks the contract.

Christ, do you mongrels even read the source material?

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>>145279029
>A spirit can immaterialize on their own will
that why she's called not proper heroic spirit for fuck sake.
>She has to die to be a spirit first
yes, that's why she's making a contract in the first place anon, so she could become a heroic spirit without beind dead first.
>She's unhurt when summoned as a Servant because the grail heals her and she is closed to Excalibur's sheath (Avalon).
jesus christ anon

>>145279029
>I'm not an idiot like you who appeals to authority. Think for yourself instead of being so intellectually bankrupt.

At least I think taking into account the work, instead of projecting my headcanon.

>>145279029
>She's unhurt when summoned as a Servant because the grail heals her and she is closed to Excalibur's sheath (Avalon).

This is some top kek material.

If anything she is summoned though the Grail as a Servant, which is why Mordred's wound is healed, since as a pseudo Servant she can use mana to heal wounds, so the Grail restores her.

Upon death or defeat she is sent back to her state right before being summoned, and is ready to be summoned again.

someone screencap this guy
>>145278281
>>145278507
>>145278682
>>145278863
>>145278932
>>145279029

>>145279099
By pulling the sword she became immortal where she can't die of age and thanks to Avalon she cannot die easily, she has amazing ability.

But she is not fully immortal.

And even if she can't enter the throne (thus she can't be a heroic spirit there), that doesn't change the fact that if she dies she's dead.

So in this case, my previous second claim (that she would become a heroic spirit after her death) is wrong. Saber would die, and not be awared the Grail. It's that simple.

>Her time will only flow
Yes, againg. But that's one part of immortality. She doesn't die of age but can die of others way (albeit very hardly with Avalon by her side).

>>145279121
She's not a spirit. She was never called a Heroic Spirit after Saber revealed she wasn't a Spirit in the VN.

>>145279121
>so she could become a heroic spirit without beind dead first.
The contract is to get the grail without being a H.E. She gets to play the role of a Servant.

Simple philosophy 101. Being a Heroic Spirit is not the property of being a Servant. One can be a Servant and not be a spirit.

>jesus christ anon
I'll take that as your concession.

And you can't argue against the fact that Saber can't dematerialize. Or that she isn't dead (which is always necessary to be a spirit).

This is a priori knowledge. It's like saying all unmarried men are bachelors. All spirits were dead (in body). This isn't fucking complicated, you retard.

>>145279193
You don't think, you can't even do so. You're incompetent at connecting the dots.

The only argument you could do was a fallacy, that's sad.

>>145279264
She was not with Avalon after killing Mordred. It's why she was suffering deadly wounds.

When Emiya Kiritsugu summoned her, he had Avalond. Shirou had it in him as well. When Saber is in proximity, she heals. This is evident in the VN.


>Upon death or defeat she is sent back to her state right before being summoned, and is ready to be summoned again.

That's bullshit.

>>145279279
Resorting to meme shitposting isn't going to prove your argument.

>>145279280
>if she dies she's dead.

Yes, but you are skipping over the very simple fact that upon any kind of defeat she is just sent back in time to the state BEFORE she was summoned. She gets to retain her memories, but the state in question (Mordred's fatal wound) remains unchanged.

>As King Arthur I make the contract to search for the Grail.
>I can only search for it as long as I am alive
>I cannot die UNTIL I obtain the Grail

There is absolutely nothing that changes this. It's a fact. She just cannot die, since she is sent back to that state.

>This is evident in the VN

Except it's not.

>Upon being summoned recovers instantly from a mortal wound because of Avalon
>Yet takes a much longer time to recover from Gae Bolg or Berserker

>>145279121
>>145279193
>>145279264
>>145279458
Here, you dumb fucks:

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2087/

No where did she admit (when she finally revealed the truth) that she is a Heroic spirit. She claim she wasn't and that's she's just a Servant (the role) but not the entity of a spirit.

>>145279280
oh god this is legit not a troll.
>you can't argue against the fact that Saber can't dematerialize.
i never said saber can't dematerialize you illiterate moron, i was saying that saber cannot dematerialize because she's not a proper heroic spirit not a real body.
then you fucking explain why saber's body is gone when she's dead.

>which is always necessary to be a spirit
Arcueid Brunestud is still alive and she can be a fucking spirit as much as she want
>inb4 she's a true ancestor
it doesn't matter, your point that you have to die to become a spirit

>All spirits were dead (in body)
we're talking about nasuverse not real world you idiot

>>145279330
There is also a very simple reason for it.

Time is stopped for her at the moment of death. Whatever happens next is of no importance and she just goes back to the previous state.

That is how she can be fully summoned.

>>145279481
Try reading, I didn't claim she was an HS.

Fact of the matte is, you're trying to apply a certain logic to a fictional situation that just doesn't work like that.

>>145279458
>Yes, but you are skipping over the very simple fact that upon any kind of defeat she is just sent back in time to the state BEFORE she was summoned.
Before any deaths, she gets sent back. She keeps her memories.

But OP asks what if she gets killed. Then she wouldn't be sent back, she'd just be dead.

Would she be sent back right before death? That didn't happen in HF.

>Except it's not.
It is. As shown in the link in the thread.

The Gae Bolg wound was far stronger and same goes for Berserker.

>>145279570
After being summoned her time is stopped. Any mortal wound will just result in her being sent back to before Bedivere returns for the third time.

Her dying would create a paradox and we all know the World doesn't like that.

>>145279507
>i never said saber can't dematerialize

She can't, it's irrelevant what you think. Saber is a spirit who cannot dematerilize. You haven't challenged that assertion because either you believe it to be true or you can't argue against it. Either way, Saber is not a spirit.

>i was saying that saber cannot dematerialize because she's not a proper heroic spirit not a real body.
That doesn't make sense. Either she's a spirit or she has real body. Choose.

>Arcueid Brunestud is still alive and she can be a fucking spirit as much as she want
Arcueid can revive herself because her entity transcends her body. She actually dies in the VN but revives. Saber doesn't get revived.

>it doesn't matter, your point that you have to die to become a spirit
This doesn't change the fact that you're comparing someone that was revived and someone who hasn't, dumbfuck.


>we're talking about nasuverse not real world
The VN uses the same definition for spirit. It hasn't offered a definition that's different. A spirit in the Vn is defined the same, just like a park or a ball is..

>>145279532
Yes her time was stopped. She was taking out of her own timeline. That doesn't mean her body cannot die. It means he went to a different time and place. This isn't complicated.

If you time travel and get killed, you're dead. If you time travel as a copy of a spirit, that's different.

When you time travel, time stops for you at the moment of traveling.

This is what happens when a hack writer makes up the rules of his own universe as he goes. Everything follows the rules except the important characters, who always seem to be some kind of exception.

>>145279481

"King Arthur will not die until she obtains the Holy Grail. No, King Arthur cannot die.
Then, you're…"

"…Yes. Time stopped for me, King Arthur, at the moment of death.
According to the timeline, I should be already dead, but it will not be able to fulfill the contract that way.
King Arthur is summoned as a Servant and must die after she obtains the Holy Grail."

"So time itself isn't stopped, but you're stopped in time, huh?
…It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the fight as a Servant. Because the result of obtaining the Holy Grail and fulfilling your contract is determined, so…"

"That is correct. Eventually, I will obtain the Holy Grail and fulfill the contract. That is why I can be summoned into many ages before I become a heroic spirit, on the condition that my becoming a heroic spirit is already determined."


saber cannot die, check mate

>>145279720
>She actually dies in the VN but revives
hold on, let me ask you first. what is your view about her "dies but revives"
what kind of die are you talking about?

>>145279719
>After being summoned her time is stopped
No. During summoning (at the hill after her battle), the times stop. Any effect after will still happen on her.

If you claim she cannot die because time stops, than that by logic no effect can she experience. By that reasoning, she wouldn't remember anything.

The claims aren't consistent with other premises.

>>145279747
>"King Arthur will not die until she obtains the Holy Grail. No, King Arthur cannot die.
>Then, you're…"
According to Rin.

>>145279803
Arcueid dies in body. Her entity continues to exist. This didn't happen to Saber.

>>145279747
cont.

King arthur cannot die can be interpretated as she is not allowed to die if she wants the grail. It's like saying to someone you cannot fail this test (if you want to become this profession). Of course, no one read it in Japanese, so this particular sentence is in the air to interpretation.

However, a being that cannot die would be bad writing considering what happened in HF.

>>145279847
>with saber's approval
"That is correct. Eventually, I will obtain the Holy Grail and fulfill the contract. That is why I can be summoned into many ages before I become a heroic spirit, on the condition that my becoming a heroic spirit is already determined."

check mate

>>145279947
>no one read it in Japanese
and the japanese agree that saber is still alive

>>145279959
She's saying this is correct to the statement that she can be summoned without being a heroic spirit. There is nothing about absolute immortality.

>>145279996
~cont
i mean saber will not die

>>145279996
You don't know that, And I wasn't talking about the realta nua ending, whcih happens after Saber achives her goal (or doesn't).

>>145280032
It's hard to accept the death of a character, and this can be even tragic when you really like her. But Saber (at least in the VN) dies in one of the routes and possibly after some bad ends.

>>145280005
she's correcting all about rin's statement

>>145280060
>You don't know that
check the japanese wiki

>But Saber (at least in the VN) dies in one of the routes and possibly after some bad ends.
dies and back to the camlann in the moment before she died

>>145280060
Yes she dies on the present but it still doesnt alter her dying on the hill, since that much is already set.

Lets assume for the sake of argument that if she dies its over.

Since her contract prevents her from dying before getting the grail then it would be a paradox and the world would just bend over backwards to not let her diw and the result would be the same.

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>>145274009
Hey, good question!

When Saber dies in any HGW she is simply taken back to the moment that she creates her contract with the Grail i.e. as she lies dying on the aftermath of the Battle of Camelann.

If she is aware of any time passing or if her summonings in her perception of time occur literally instantly after the last one is hard to say. Basically its a feedback loop. If she doesnt achieve her objective she is brought back to the point where she created her contract and is summoned from there again.

>>145280172

This is the answer.

Anyway, this is open to intepretation. I am willing to consider that Saber can be snatched right before certain death and at her near end in HF, she somehow didn't fully die (on the verge of death she was teleported back).

Or the other interpretation is that she can die and never get a chance at the grail. Either way both are tragic. The idea that she can die in body and be revived with another is silly and contradictory to things said.

I'll still slide toward the latter since her body didn't even disapear after Shirou stabbed her in the chest.

>>145280144
She said yes to the fact that Saber can't die if she wants her grail.

Like I said, cannot die can be interpreteated as you're not allowed to die if you want X. But of course, the translation is not better than the original sentence so it's better to judge that instead. Hence, room for some interpretation.

I would say however for a VN that repeats so many things the only instance that could resemble Saber having absolute mortality is in that passage alone.

>>145280157
If she dies in the present and also dies in the hill, the only way for that to happen is if she has two bodies, is a spirit or gets revived after her present death. She's not a spirit as explained already (and as people already agree). There is no indication she has two bodies. So that leaves revival. But there hasn't been explicitly stated.

>her contract prevents her from dying before getting the grail
Prevents her from dying if she wants her reward.

>>145275248
Both Avalon and Ea are bullshit overpowered in very different ways. Both were not fully made of Gaia; Ea is made of alien material that Shirou can not recognise and Avalon was made by faires in a parallel universe.

Ea's attacking power is second to none however it can not influence separate dimensions or parrallel universes. Avalon's ability essentially transports its user to its parallel universe where they are immune to all damage from the other one.

>>145280157
cont.

>Since her contract prevents her from dying before getting the grail

The grail teleporting Saber before she dies when she's on her way to death at the verge would make sense. But that would mean HF saber didn't get stabbed. I haven't read that scene in a long time so perhaps this can be valid.

>>145276087

>What kind of bullshit explanation is that??

Hardly bullshit. The fact that servants have canonical stats is established immediately in F/SN and Saber happens to have an extremely high Luck start

Nasu was a huge fan of D&D and RPGs which is why F/SN is built like one.

>>145277331

Ryougi can't kill TYPES

>>145280315
But the wounds she suffers during the war dont matter.

Shell just go back to the hill with mordreds wound.

>>145274009
There is an infinite numbers of Sabers in their infinite avalons.
Kaleidoscope an sheeet.

>>145275701
Avanlon is of the same class as Ea.
It's not a human noble phantasm.

>>145276087
Luck is literally the ability to change a certain fate. It's the reason Taiga is the most powerful character in TypeMoon.

>>145280289
>Avalon's ability essentially transports its user to its parallel universe where they are immune to all damage from the other one.
Except that's not at all what it does.

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>>145280270
check mate
>死ぬ事ができない
saber cannot die
it emphasis in saber being cannot die as in immortal instead of "not allowed"

>>145274354
The world is required by contract to give her the option to get the Grail, and in exchange she's a CG after death I think if she gets it. Abandoning the deal means she goes to Avalon.

>>145281078
From extra material:

"The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that *stands in the land of Avalon*.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Sabre."

>>145281714

She only ends in Avalon after the Fate route

Nasu brought up the possibility of her just normally ascending to the TOH in HF and UBW since she didn't reconnect with her sheath

>>145282002
>that can even repel the assault of True Magic
Remind me, what is it that the Second does?

>>145282704
It just works.

>>145282704

The second is the Kaleidoscope

Ability to gather energy and connect with other parallel

>>145279091
No, the problem is that in F/GO. You'll find the servants making references to all previous works from F/SN to Apocrypha to CCC. They clearly have some recollection to what happened in their past wars.

Jeanne directly remembers Shakespeare fucking with her for example. F/SN servants make comments about other F/SN servants. The degree of which changes depending on how "traumatic" or "significant" the event is. Hell, even Prototype servants make references to their past wars.

>>145284577
kaleidoscope i aint gotta explain shit

>>145284724
Kinda hard using that considering that Solomon in F/GO has nuked any and all timelines/universes. The Kaleidoscope is completely fucked. The counter force is fucked as well.

>>145284767

Just wait until Heroic Spirit GUDAKO appears.

>>145280172
>If she doesnt achieve her objective she is brought back to the point where she created her contract and is summoned from there again.
That's fine and all, the question is where does she gets summoned to? Option 2 or 3 from OP? Is the timeline still rigid, she retains her memory and got summoned to different time period, or she doesn't retain her memory and got to redo the 5th grail war (practically changing universe).

We know that she did the loop once in F/Z, retain her memory and then got summoned again in the future, so I would incline to believe #2. Even if she dies in HF, she'll get summoned again for Grail War in the future, or in the past.

>>145280957
>It's not a human noble phantasm

It is still made through human imagination though. By that logic, most NP is not human NP, a lot of weapons are given by God, etc. For example, how is Rider's Bellophorn a human NP? Humans can't make pegasus. This logic breaks the entire universe

>>145287556
She made it herself, it's her blood.
Rider is also not a typical servant.