So I watched Adolescence of Utena for the first time last night

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Also this is hands down the best clip show episode I've ever seen.

>>145213042
Anthy is great and genuinely did nothing wrong.

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>>145213269
I will agree that Anthy is great, but she clearly did a shit-ton wrong.

Actually when Utena started apologizing to her during the attempted suicide the first time I watched I thought it was a load of bullshit. On the second watch I picked up more on why Utena is actually a pretty shitty friend to Anthy in a lot of ways.

Everyone in this show has such fantastic character development it really blows my mind.

if utena was discussed like NGE, it would be filled with BLACKED and poo in the loo, etc. more discussion isn't better

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>(in that it doesn't fall completely apart)
Well, this part here is your opinion. I personally don't think Eva ever falls apart, even taking Rebuild into consideration.

That said, the reason Utena isn't talked about much is that Eva is more popular. It's more influential, more people have been exposed to it (through Adult Swim or word of mouth), and it still has content being produced. It's a series that is important to anime in general, so it won't be going anywhere.
Of course, Eva has many detractors, and this is due to its popularity in addition to people just having varying opinions. Utena is generally lauded because people who dislike it forget about it or don't get far enough to properly shitpost.
Both Utena and Eva are amongst my favorite anime, personally. I'm not sure if I'd consider Utena better than Eva, but Utena is something I can rewatch and enjoy every time.

Favorite Utena track?

https://youtu.be/MVljz_kQ3Xs

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>>145213394
Utena objectified her all too often and never tried to understand her until the last arc, she was pretty much no better than the other duelists in a lot of ways.
>but she clearly did a shit-ton wrong.
Yeah I was joking, she's still amazing though.

>>145213042
>Why does /a/ talk about Eva nonstop but I never see any Utena threads? I actually think Utena might have the deeper characters between the two and the execution is miles better
I agree, but I think Eva will always have more appeal for otaku. Utena is a little too female oriented and too 'normie'. The MC fucks a brown guy, for christ's sake. And even if that sort of thing doesn't turn them off, they still won't be able to empathize with it anywhere near as well as they can with a boy like Shinji. I mean, do you think they'll relate to the witch/princess idea if they've got a Madonna/whore complex themselves?

>>145213425
You're not wrong, but I do wish it got a bit more discussion.

>>145213482
I was being too harsh in the OP, Eva doesn't completely fall apart. That said, it's obvious it went in directions that weren't initially planned. Utena feels meticulous, like everything was planned out from the start and almost every shot conveys something about the theme.

>>145213500
Can't find a link, but that one really happy song where it's the main theme played on xylophones. It's so soothing.

>>145213663
Yep. My first watch, I was so caught up in Utena's perspective that I really didn't consider a lot of what Anthy was doing. In that way I felt just the same as Utena when I realized all the shit that was going down.

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>>145213733
You've got a good point. Shinji (despite his flaws) is still a male hero who learns to become a man and (kind of) saves the day (depending on how you interpret it).

Utena is in large part about how you CAN'T save the day, you can only save yourself. And by doing so you lead by example, not by force.


Have some art drawn by the creators.

>>145213500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7jaPrhCF_M

>>145213500
>>145213787

Found the song I was talking about. Damn this series had a phenomenal OST.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTgFGlsgk2s&list=PL05008AF2CAA19C3B&index=44

>>145213946
>boobs touching

>>145213946
Nah, Eva isn't about saving the day.

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>>145214584
Anon...

>>145214586
You're mostly right. I suppose what I meant was that Shinji gets to influence the world around him in very large ways as he sees fit. Utena is partially about how that's an unrealistic goal.

>>145214917
I suppose so, but it's not like it's portrayed as an unambiguously good thing, and he was also just being used most of the time to that end. It's more about interpersonal relationships than anything.

>>145215156
I agree with you, it isn't portrayed as unambiguously good, and the end of the TV series is much more about Shinji's internal journey than his decisions about the outside world (one reason why I prefer the TV ending). I was thinking more about EoE where the ending is ambiguous, but I think it leans more toward being hopeful than depressing. Regardless, it was Shinji's decision what would happen to everyone else on earth. Either stay in the "coffin" of instrumentality (to use Utena terminology) or to interact with others in painful reality. Utena is different in that she decides that she herself will leave behind the world of Ohtori, and it's Anthy's job to follow her, which is a pretty big thematic difference.

Utena and Eva have a lot of similar ideas and themes which isn't that surprising given that people who worked on Eva went on to work on Utena.

>>145215626
Haha, you pointed it out before I could. Then there's everything with Kaworu.

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>>145215857
Yeah, the people who worked on these shows laid on the gay subtext pretty thick.

Bless them.

>>145215981
I'd still like to see a collaboration between Anno and Ikuhara. I mean, he had to time to work with Mamoru.

>>145216169
That would be an incredible duo. Would love to see what they could come up with together.

>>145216343
Maybe someday.

>>145216388
...Together We'll Shine

I don't know if Anno could hack it today based on 3.0, but maybe he'd pull it together. That reminds me I need to see what else Ikuhara has done. I've never seen any other show he's made, but Utena has me intrigued.

>>145216456
I think he could. There's a lot to appreciate there that's overlooked. Plus, Godzilla seems cool.

To tell you the truth, I haven't seen any of his other shows either. Sailor Moon doesn't count.

>>145213482
Why is Eva more influential than Utena though? Is it just because it's more male friendly? Both have similar structures in that they start seemingly generic and then get really fucked up later as you learn more about the characters. I suppose since Utena came after Eva, it was less revolutionary as these kinds of themes had already been explored.

>>145216671
I haven't even watched Sailor Moon. Is that allowed here?

>>145216678
I don't think it has anything to do with gender. Utena is just longer and less accessible.

>>145216721
It should be okay, as long as no one finds out.

>>145216786
Eva also has better graphic design if I'm being honest. The Eva units themselves look badass as hell and the angels are cool too. The whole look of Eva is fantastic, and while Utena definitely has its own visual theming going on, Eva is more visually impressive.

>>145213733
>and too 'normie'. The MC fucks a brown guy, for christ's sake
I'm so tired of everyone equating races with skin colors other than white or pale with suddenly the PC police is in town. This show is hardly "normie", by any stretch of the imagination. I will agree it's female oriented, which is probably why it has such a large female cult following.

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>>145216898
I think what that anon was saying is that the /pol/ memesters of the site would freak out over some of the content.

>>145216678
Eva starts normal then turns into what people know as Eva. It also is pretty easy to understand, even to people who don't try to dissect it (and I personally think a lot of Eva's analysis is over-analysis). The most important thing is that Eva was (in general) quite different from other mecha series at the time, as well as anime in general. It was such an overwhelming success that it influenced future anime for quite a while, and even today it still prints money and is referenced frequently in anime/manga.
Utena is much longer and less accessible because it's full of symbolism and meaningless nonsense right from the get-go.
I think demographics played a part, Utena is obviously aimed at females while Eva is aimed at males, but I don't think that's the reason why Eva is more successful. Eva was just a lot more efficient in doing what it set out to do. It is something people can appreciate without having to view it as artsy. Utena is "artistic" from episode 1.

>>145217008
Those are good points. I love the artsy fartsy bullshit in Eva the most, so Utena being a whole show of almost nothing but that is just what I want.

>>145216857
I agree, though contradictory to that there's almost more I appreciate in Utena visually. That might be because of all the recurring motifs.

But yes, in the end I agree.

>>145216671
Sailor Moon SuperS was the most similar to Utena in tone. It shares the same writer and is deliciously creepy in writing and storyboarding.

>>145217008
Also, almost nothing in Utena is meaningless IMO. Even Chu-Chu can be interpreted as being Anthy's familiar, expressing the emotions she is unable to. Or perhaps Chu-Chu represents Akio since they share design motifs (both have an earring and a red tie) with Chu-Chu's constant eating symbolizing Akio's consumption of those around him. The thing with Utena is that almost anything can be interpreted as almost anything.

>>145217185
The visual motifs in Utena are amazing in their own right, especially because of the theming they convey. It's just that if I was an average viewer watching both shows for the first time, the action of Eva would draw me in a lot more than the cinematography of Utena.

>>145216898
It is 'normie' in the sense that it deals with socially adept people who participate in romantic, sexual relationships. Obviously the actual execution of the show isn't 'normal' but how the fuck can anime nerds relate to a popular 14 year old girl who has sex?

>>145217353
Of course, and I think that holds up when considering both as a whole.

>>145217353
>Even Chu-Chu can be interpreted as being Anthy's familiar, expressing the emotions she is unable to.
This is pretty much it. I wouldn't say ChuChu represents Akio because he leaves the tie and earring behind and goes with Anthy.

>>145213153
Slightly off topic I guess, but the dream episode of Macross is by far the most genius clip show episode I've ever seen.

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>>145217546
To me, this is the kind of shot you wouldn't normally get with Eva but is plentiful in Utena.

The color green throughout the series represents jealousy and possessiveness (Saionji) and here in Mikage's flashback we see the whole scene is framed in the color green because he's jealous of Akio getting with his woman.

The frames of the windows are yellow, Nanami's color, which signifies childishness and infatuation. Mikage is childlike in his understanding of others due to his semi-autistic tendencies and he's infatuated with this woman (and her brother...).

And lastly the silly hand pointing at Akio is there to show you that in Mikage's "computer-like" mind that this is a particular thing he remembers vividly. But this silly hand explicitly pointing out the focus of the scene belies the fact that there's a lot more going on in the shot that you wouldn't realize at first.

Also this is the same room where Mikage invites Mickey to join his seminar, showing how he seduces people to his cause in much the same way Akio did in this same room years before. Though Mikage hates Akio in some ways, he has become very much like him in others.

>>145217877
Also (credit to Vrai Kaiser for this observation) this is the last flashback scene with a yellow backdrop, symbolizing Mikage's loss of innocence after he realizes that the girl of his dreams isn't who he imagined her to be.

>>145217877
Maybe I'm completely wrong here, but it's more of "the point" compared to Eva, I think.

>>145217877
I remember someone pointing out that in Miki's flashback of his sister she had a hair style similar to Anty's, but in her own flashback it looked like her normal hair style.

>>145218240
Holy shit.

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>>145218125
You're not wrong. Utena deliberately set out to be "artsy" as another anon put it. Eva is more direct in how it tells its story, while Utena wants you to scratch your head over every little thing.

Sorry for the small image, but this shot is one I think of when I think of Eva. Gendo at his desk having just taken over Nerv with this shadowy cross behind him. The symbolism here is more in your face than Utena, but that doesn't necessarily make it worse. It's certainly visually striking.

>>145218240
God I really need to rewatch it and concentrate on every little thing

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>>145213042
>Why does /a/ talk about Eva nonstop but I never see any Utena threads?

It's a majority male board.

It's not that none of us have ever watched Utena, but not as many as Eva and probably not with as much youthful vigor as we watched that show.

Utena's pretty good though, would recommend even with all the reused animation. Actually, partially because of the reused animation, there's something adorable about it nowadays.

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>>145218240
You're making me want to rewatch the series for a third time.

Here's a picture of her flashback

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>>145218274
>>145218411
Yup, found it.

>>145218455
There are actually threads about it pretty frequently. Maybe there would be more if they decided to make a second film.

The reused stuff is the best part, and not just in a quaint way.

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>>145218491
Beat me to it. I even went and made my own screenshots.

>>145218469
>>145218545
I really need to rewatch it too. Skewed memories seem to be a big thing in it.

>>145218455
For me, Utena reignited my youthful vigor, and I eventually learned to love all that repeated animation. And Shiori is actually the worst.

>>145216678
at a fundamental level NGE had a massive budget and staff and was made to be big. Utena had Ikuhara not expecting to make back his money.

NGE is a lot more accessible, (more immediately resonant themes, frequent great cuts of animation) and while I believe utena looks great, it's not due to animation quality.

>>145218607
Shiori dindu nuffin. Akio and Ruka are the worst, and Saionji is purely for bullying

>>145218597
Memory's unreliability is a huge theme in SKU. Utena herself has forgotten what really made her want to be a prince in the first place until the very end of the series. Most of the characters view some piece of their past with rose-tinted glasses and have forgotten what those times were really like.

I would say it was unrealistic except similar stuff has happened to me as far as memories go.

>>145218692
>Bowl of eggs (in the forest)

>>145218692
Akio is definitely worse than Shiori, agreed. Ruka at least had noble intentions though, he just wanted to help Jury before he died even if the way he did it was super shitty. Shiori hurts Jury just so she can feel better about herself, she's way worse than Ruka.

>>145218779
I think she hurt Juri out of possessiveness/jealousy and denial of her own sexuality. I'm not excusing her actions but they are shown mending their relationship at the ends of the series. And Ikuhara confirmed that Shiori loves her back.

>I finally realized the truth. To think that she loved me back! What a miracle! But... "The loser in love is the one who lets their heart be ruled by it." Everyone's adopted a provocative attitude toward someone of the opposite sex that they like at least once or twice, to get that person to notice them. So it's okay if I do that. This love will crumble if we touch. But when people don't touch, the love eventually dies away. That's why I decided to keep your love prisoner. To make sure that you love me forever. That game will make our love 'eternal.' I'm sure of it. We were 'lovers lost from the beginning.'
-Kunihiko's commentary on episode 17, "The Thorns of Death."

>>145218712
>I would say it was unrealistic except similar stuff has happened to me as far as memories go.
My memories' gotten so hazy and I'm still young, it truly is suffering

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>>145213500
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TTkQRGUzo

>>145219088
When were they shown mending their relationship? I could have just forgotten.

The last part of the Jury episode in the final arc shows Shiori waiting for Juri to walk past, and then wordlessly catching up to her and walking behind her. This implies to me that the direct hostility of Shiori has passed, but the two characters still don't understand or communicate with each other. They both walk the same direction (they don't face each other) and if they talk there is no indication of it.

Then in the badminton scene, Juri asks for a picture of Utena to put in her new locket and there's a shot of Shiori looking extremely pissed listening in on the conversation. It doesn't seem to me like their relationship was mended (which is one reason Juri doesn't get to leave Ohtori).

I hadn't considered the "denial of her own sexuality" angle really. Though now I wonder how I hadn't since everything in this show is so homoerotic. To me, Shiori's relationship with Juri seemed to not be sexual. I never really got an indication that she was attracted to Juri in that way, but I'm sure I missed a lot of things.

>>145219228
I've been smoking too much weed since starting college, (Senior here) and my memory is completely shot. I did this to myself but goddamn it sucks sometimes. I've remembered stuff that didn't happen to me before, so I can relate to Utena on that front.

>>145219289
The final episode. I should rewatch it but I remember Juri mentioning that she's working on her relationship with Shiori(don't think this part was in the final episode though) while she stands by. Shiori joins the fencing team in the end and is shown practicing with her.

>>145219672
I forgot about those scenes after Utena disappears, you're right. After rewatching that scene, Juri doesn't say anything about fixing her relationship with Shiori, at least in this episode. She shouts "Next!" and you see Shiori appear. So it's obviously implying their relationship is improving like you said. That's good; I'm glad the side characters seem better off at the end of the show. Eva's side characters don't fare so well.

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So rewatching the first episode now I noticed that the fact that the arena is inside a dome (Akio's tower) is foreshadowed in the song as Utena walks up the stairs. So many little details.

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>>145220364
And when Utena asks him what the castle is this is his response. I don't think Saionji knows Akio is End of the World yet based on his reaction in his car scene. So I don't think he knows about the projector.

Does he know he's telling the truth or not?

>>145219845
>I'm glad the side characters seem better off at the end of the show
Yup, I love the little things like that.
>>145220364
The weirdest thing about the first episode is that Utena is very popular and has been there for at least a semester but didn't knew who Saionji or Anthy were.

>>145220560
>Does he know he's telling the truth or not?
Saionji is a baka

>>145220615
That is a very odd detail. Utena is completely oblivious of all of the student council members of her school, but I don't know if that's super hard to believe. Utena is self-centered and doesn't care about school rules (or ruling the school) so the student council didn't interest her before Saionji messed with Wakaba.

On the rewatch, I realize that Utena's not very considerate of Wakaba when she decides to leave her crying friend to go beat the shit out of who hurt her feelings without really talking to her about it.

>>145221060
Utena's very misguided and inhumanly naive

>>145221247
She's only inhumanly naive if you've never met a fourteen year old girl. She's really inhumanly lovable.

>>145218692
>Ruka are the worst

Ruka whole motivation was trying to give Jury what she always wanted (a miracle)at almost any cost. He was willing to pay for it with his health, the time he had left and even his friendship with Jury if it came to that. Along the way he was willing to hurt others but the moment Jury got "hurt"/lost her necklace he stop pushing for it and instead was trying to confort Jury.

>>145221467
Maybe not inhumanly but definitely the most naive. Even Nanami with all her wackiness was more observant!

>>145221703
I love how later on Nanami abandons the dueling game saying she "Gave up that stupid stuff." Really shows how much she's grown. Nanami might actually be the most observant of the student council members in one way because she's the only one besides Utena to drop out of the duels altogether.

She's definitely my favorite of the student council members, even though at first I really didn't like her.

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>>145216169
They look cute together

>>145222157
What do you think they talked about?

I bet it was cute anime girls.

>>145222157
Are they actually friends?

>>145213042
>Why does /a/ talk about Eva nonstop but I never see any Utena threads?
Utena really wasn't popular at all here until like 2009. And EVERYONE has seen NGE.

Evangelion still has some content coming out. So naturally, there's more discussion.

We actually do have more Utena threads then you think, probably one every month or so. Also during Ikuhara's (the director) other shows, tended to have some Utena discussion.