Why do so many plebs call Evangelion a "deconstruction"

NGE killed anime

Because all anime fans like to pretend they know more than they really do.

>You need to experience every single shitty thing that has influenced a piece of fiction to understand it!

Christ, tell me you're just kidding. What, did you also read the entire Bible just to prepare your mind for Evangelion?

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Sure Eva took plenty of elements from other shows but the result in vastly different.
None of the characters in Ideon have any more depth than "War is bad but we have to survive, what do?"

>that thing that was only an ironic joke here
Excuse me?

Same reason people can't stop bringing up Ideon in relation to Eva after they learn it exists. Trying to put on airs of superiority and knowledge when they're still mostly clueless.

>>144729944
>being an uncultured fucking pleb

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>>144729498
>Ideon, Devilman, Gundam, Nausicaa, Yamato, Mazinger, and other works that influenced it
Eva brought out the themes that were the absolute best from this selection without artistically depriving itself of being a masterpiece, unlike every work you mentioned in your post. Thus, Eva 'decontructed' those pieces, taking the best parts, and made itself into the magnum opus of anime as a whole.

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>>144730258
>uncultured

Nigger, you and I watch anime and post about it on an anonymous imageboard. What the fuck makes you think I was ever cultured, or that you were in any position to criticize

>>144729498
None of those are deconstructions.

>NGE only broke the mold for starting cancerous waifufaggotry.
Nice try, but that was Gundam 0079.

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anyone here have a better version of this image?

>>144730355
Eva is shit.

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>>144730461
It doesn't matter what your opinion is of it. It's like taking the single most recognizable thing out of another art form, and calling it shit. It's too big and too established for you to effect anymore.

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What if it didn't happen.

Would we be here talking on the internet like this?

I doubt it... not necessarily this board, but the whole place probably wouldn't exist.

Eva made 4chin

>>144730696
Anime as a whole would've never taken off in the west. Japan would be a Burgerland territory. France and Germany would have more able bodied males to defend themselves. Net loss for weebs, but net gain for the world.

>>144729498
Why do so many plebs call Evangelion a "deconstruction" when they have never even read John Fisk's article that defines the meaning of the word "deconstruction"?

(hint: it's all about the polysemy of the text dawgs)

>>144729498
>other works that influenced it?

A "deconstruction" in this colloquial sense by default has to be influenced and reference others. If it's fully original, it can't be "deconstructing" something. The question you should have actually asked is how can people say that it's a deconstruction if they never saw the works that are supposed to be deconstructed there.

>>144730632
>it's popular
>you can't x
Ok. Evangelion is baby's first suffering anime.

Go hang yourself, OP-

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>>144730994
>when you realize you opinion isn't actually worth anything and all you can do it lash out
There, there lil guy.

>>144730435
Well, I don't know about you, but I'm a pretty clever lad when it comes to these things.

>>144731387
Oh ok, my bad

>>144730632
>argumentum ad populum
And anyway, One Piece or Dragon Ball Z are more recognizable and known than Eva.

"It's a deconstruction" = "I'm barely familiar with the genre but I have some preconceived notions about it and this show goes against them"

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>>144731565
By your logic, Twilight is the most recognizable and known literary work beside the Bible. Meanwhile, connoisseurs of literary work would balk at you for mentioning such things.

This is a thread for anime connoisseurs(750+ watched). See yourself out.

>>144729498
I watched/read all of those, and love many of them. NGE is still a masterpiece and the best I've seen from this medium.

>>144730258
Have you also watched and read all the works that influenced the works you mentioned?

Evangelion is shit. I can never understand why so many autists put it on a pedestral.

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>>144730453
Here you go.

>>144733093
Amazing direction, narrative, animation and writing? Creative ideas, setting and use of visualized introspection? Besides those I don't really know.

I've seen all anime you cited (with the exception of Devilman) and they are all vastly inferior to Evangelion and severely different.

Ideon's movie is the only thing that comes even remotely close to the style of Eva, but just because it kills most of the characters doesn't mean it is similar nor introspect the same way Eva is.

Weak bait.

>>144730355
>Eva 'decontructed' those pieces, taking the best parts
What are those parts?

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>>144730355
Fucking this;

OP is buttblasted.
/thread

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>>144733268

>>144729944
>bible
You meant to say the Talmud, pleb.

>>144729498

The thing about Eva is that it's iconic. It's a show that feels like a super robot show - and a 'serious' super robot show - before it gets weird. And dark.

Look, we sort of have an idea how a story is supposed to go. Even Devilman has the hero become the leader of the Devilman army before the shit goes down, and Mazinger's Kouji gets stronger.

Here, Shinji is demonstrably in a worse position than he was in the start of the show. Everything is falling apart. The manipulation by the adults work. The evil conspiracy runs its course with very little trouble on the part of the 'heroes'.

There's a lot of earlier stuff, but Eva did it well and in a thematically solid way. Either that, or it was a product of it's time.

>>144733311
So people just say that but doesn't really know, nice

>>144733352
>reading the literary Jew

Wew there, laddie

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>>144729944
>What, did you also read the entire Bible just to prepare your mind for Evangelion?
Yes.

>>144733268
Devilman - story
Devilman - setting
Gundam - character development
Nausicaa - waifus
Mazinger - animation style
Yamato - bros

I'd add to this
Space Odysse/Kubrick - shot composition
Okamoto/Godard - editing

>>144730865
>Why do so many plebs call Evangelion a "deconstruction" when they have never even read John Fisk's article that defines the meaning of the word "deconstruction"?

I blame tvtropes

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>>144733445
>psychology
>not psychoanalysis

Kek, plebs.

I've actually studied Freud, Klein and Winnicot's main theories that were present in Eva. Fight me.

>>144733311
That's not what spoonfeeding is. He's asking you to back up your argument.

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>>144733487
>spoonfeeding underaged retards

>>144733508
I found the psychological parts more interesting in form than in content. I've never seen introspection visualized in a similar way in film.

>>144733352
You meant to say the Kabbalah, surf.

>>144733352
The Magi and the Spear of Longinus are from christianity.

>>144733567
Kabbalah is not a "book", retard. Most of the Kabbalistic esoteric elements is present into the Talmud.
Please educate yourself.

>>144733537
>>144733516

>>144733613
Doesn't really matter, all the Christian and Kabbalistic symbolism is used on a completely superficial level and a deeper understanding of it contributes nothing to your ability to follow the show. Someone would do better to brush up on their Jung than their Bible or Talmud.

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>>144730453
Here you go

>>144733110
>Seph
Nice meme

>>144729498
>NGE only broke the mold for starting cancerous waifufaggotry.

Someone hasn't seen Ranma or Tenchi Muyo.

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>>144733786
Took a jpg by mistake ;-;

>>144733720
>superficial level
It's not, you got memed and just went with what /a/ told you. First of all, Anno didn't even say the things people say, it was Tsurumaki. Second of all, he only said the show had no "christian meaning", that doesn't mean any meaning at all. It serves a purpose for the plot, atmosphere and to reflect certain thematic points. Yes, the message and themes of Eva aren't related to christian theology, but it's not like if you took out the religious elements the show would provide the same experience.

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>>144733887
Actually the symbolism is not as shallow as people think it is but there isn't much symbolism either. You just need to read about the Sephirotic system in the talmud, (the tree of life: The path to god) and how the Tree of Life works.
The fact that the angels have Hebrew names is irrelevant.

>>144733887
I'm not saying it would be the same without the imagery or that it serves no purpose, I'm saying that a deep understanding of the source texts is completely unnecessary and is if anything likely to mislead a viewer if they cling to it too hard.

>>144733445
source of gif? does japan understand evafaggotry?

>>144734390
I don't think it's necessary to have an unerstanding of anything to watch Eva, it expresses the atmosphere, style, story and message very well on its own. But knowing the background can be interesting. For example if we understand the relationship between Lilith, Adam and Eva. We understand why Adam and Lilith were the original beings (not Adam and Eva) and then it makes sense that the Evas are created from Adam. It's like how understanding norse mythology isn't important to understand the lords of the rings or enjoy its settings but if you do you can make some interesting connections.
>>144734196
How does this help? I'm kind of interested.

>>144734196
So what do you make of this quote by Tsurumaki:
>"There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us. Because Christianity is an uncommon religion in Japan we thought it would be mysterious. None of the staff who worked on Eva are Christians. There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool. If we had known the show would get distributed in the US and Europe we might have rethought that choice"

I'm not trying to instigate or anything, I like the show and want to understand your ideas on it.

>>144734536
SZS, and it's probably ironic.

Though I'm saying this as someone who hasn't read or watched it.

>>144734536
So long, mr. Despair. It's required watching to browse /a/ properly.

>>144729498
please don't use that word
poststructuralism makes me physically sick.

>>144733487
you must be delusional if you believe that these hacks are anywhere near the master's level.

>>144734682
That infamous line is mostly correct in the sense that they just added the mythology for the heck of it initially. It wasn't a foundation for the series per se.
However, most people fail to realize that AFTER the mythology was choosen, they actually did read quite a lot about it. We are talking from a pre-HTTP era internet here, so they actually went to libraries and took several books about BIology Physics and Judaism to make all the sci-fi and mythologic elements in Eva.

You woul only find terms like "Chamber of Guf" or "Dirac Sea" "Hayflick Limit" and "Apoptosis" if you went deep into such books. Today with wikipedia, nothing is obscure anymore.

Anyway, regarding the Sephirotic system, take this passage for instace:

https://triangulations.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/guf-a-jewish-soul-myth/

All of those mechanics are kinda or represented in the EoE when Unit 01 becomes the Tree of Life itself.

What is more interesting, is that not only it is literally represented, but also symbolically. While Adam and Gedou represent the father, Yui represent the Knowledge, Lilith Represent GOD itself (athough Lilith is an apocryphal demon) Rei represents the holy spirit and unit 01, represent the heart.

All which in the Judaic theology are essential elements to reach a higher plane of existence, the same as god. The Instrumentality process could both be viewed as a philosophical forced evolution process, as well as an theological forced sublimation of the human existence to the same plane as god.

>>144733508
>psychoanalysis
literally worthless.
It only works on the specific demographic of the hysteric bourgeois Viennese upper class.

The only ones whom psychoanalysis benefits are authors looking for eccentric characters.

>>144733487
Anno is a talentless hack director senpai
also, all of these things you listed are varying degrees of awful or unrelated to eva.

>>144729498
Because they are Tasteless casuals.

>>144735175
At being a hack?

>>144729498
Does Eva have the worst fanbase of all time? The anime in itself is pretty good imo (nothing excellent, but good), but jesus fuck the fanbase.

They absolutely LOVE to boast how this is the SUPERIOR mecha. "oh but it's so sadistic" "oh but the suffering" "oh but the complex characters", "oh but the Oedipal symbolism", when the characters are not particularly complex and most of the suffering is very much standard. It's like they've been watching shit for most of their lives and when something decent comes along they treat it like the new fucking Mona Lisa.

Whenever you even dare question the fact that it may not be THAT groundbreaking or good, they viciously attack you accusing of liking Shonen and "perfect characters with no flaws".

Watch Mazinger Z if you like Eva, you fucks

>>144735274
>It only works on the specific demographic of the hysteric bourgeois Viennese upper class.

You have no idea how ignorant and laughable your shallow attempt of discrediting the only way of thought that went the deepest into understanding and revealing how the human mind works sounds.

I choked a little, child.

>>144735501
Psychoanalysis is a method that was built using the hysteric Viennese upper class.
Do you think the same method will work on an African tribesman?
A Japanese?
An American?
A Soviet?
An Arab?
Or even someone from the Austrian countryside?

Do you really believe that?
Why?

>>144735429
You know what is fun? That the expression 2DEEP4U is literally and objectively true for little haters like you that try too hard to sound superior indifferent but fail miserable to hide your rage and discredit the series in such a superfluous way as just vomiting terms like "Oedipal Symbolism" and "Complex characters" without actually understanding any of it.

>>144735429
Nadeshiko is the pinnacle of mecha anime tho.

To seem intelligent. NGE is not a deconstruction, though it does play off of common genre elements.

KotOR2 is a deconstruction of star wars for example, because it breaks down constant elements of the star wars series that the setting does not necessitate or require

>>144735501
>psychoanalysis
>actually having anything to do with how the mind works

Do you also leech yourself to balance your humors?

>>144735770
that is not what deconstruction means

Eva isn't shit, but it's not the masterpiece so many of you faggots seem to act like it is.

>>144735833
Yes it is, in this context.

I think the EVA TV series is pretty average but that fucking EoE movie blew my mind. Watched it half a decade ago and since then I just cant find a piece of anime that could top that fucking movie. God bless Anno for remastering it for BD.

>>144735608
Your definition of Psychoanalisis is actually WRONG.
The psychoanalysis is a philosophy, a práxis. It was a DISCOVERY, almost by accident.

Freud initially watched Charcot's classes treating hysterical women, yes, but that was just the initial spark, them Freud had one of the most breakthrough realizations in the history of man. Something no one ever realized until then: That our mind is not only the logic we can see and hear in our thoughts, but that it had a much bigger and deeper level, the unconscious.

The psychoanalysis is a study of how the mind is formed and all the escape channeling the unconscious creates to deal with traumas leading to neurosis.

Your question is wrong, let me ask you this instead: Do you think unconscious mind and somatization and neurosis are exclusive traits of rich people, son? Do you think the basic mind organization it vastly different in African people?

Before criticizing something, you should at least try and get past reading just the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article about it, friend.

>>144736011
That's nice question.
I have a better one:
Do you believe that unconscious mind operates the same way for all people in every cultural context?

>>144736011
>Freud had one of the most breakthrough realizations in the history of man
Jesus. This fucking meme again.

>>144735889
2deep4u.

I want to be a good-looking human wreck like the cool kids in Evangelion.

>>144729498
Devilman is unironically better than any of the other works mentioned in this post.

>>144736154
>cool kids in Evangelion
Kaji?

>>144736011
Freud was a psuedoscientific quack whose only real contribution to his field was popularizing it.

>>144736098
Again, an ambiguous misleading question.
We must understand what you assume "Operate" refers to.
If it refers to each culture having different morals and way of thinking that are embedded into the unique identity of each person, than this has nothing to do with conscious.

Conscious refers to the structure of the organization of the mind.

So, if you mean "operate" as in the sense that repressions and traumas are channeled into neurosis, than YES. The difference is that the traumas and logic that repress our basic instincts are done differently by each culture, since moral is different from human to human.

Freud actually has an essay about how moral affects the repression and neurosis mechanisms.

>>144736130
>I disagree with something that is recurring
>must be a stupid meme, I can't be wrong
Here is your (you), friend.

>>144736308
>psychoanalysis/psychology are pseudoscience
NOW THIS IS a meme, indeed.

A false one. Since the effective of talk therapy in specific modern Freudian-derivative methods has objectively proven to be effective by scientific studies with psychiatric drugs even if the unconscious mind can't be pass through the falsifiable principle for obvious reasons.

Philosophies are all pseudosciences too, you know.
How is your materialistic life going? Pretty shallow and empty, I suppose.

>>144736561
>effectiveness
>can't go through
Autofixed.

>>144729498
>Why do so many plebs call Evangelion a "deconstruction" when they have never even seen/read: Ideon, Devilman, Gundam, Nausicaa, Yamato, Mazinger, and other works that influenced it?
The first point does not require the second one, that's why.

>>144733860
ty friend

>>144735175
What? Where did I imply that they were or weren't? The guy asked what aspects influenced Anno's works and I answered.

>>144735595
>that mari and hegel quote
Fucking brilliant, kek.

Who is the one paired with Asuka? Only one I don't recall.

>>144735274
>Anno is a talentless hack director senpai
>also, all of these things you listed are varying degrees of awful or unrelated to eva.
Anno credited all of those as an inspiration. Then it's kind of easy to establish what aspects influenced him. With some he specifically mentioned them.

>>144729498
>Why do so many plebs call Evangelion a "deconstruction"
Because they think "deconstruction" means whatever tvtropes thinks it means, and they've never heard the name Jacques Derrida.

Waifus haven't been a joke since 2006, anon.

You're the joke.

>>144736978
>Anno credited all of those as an inspiration. Then it's kind of easy to establish what aspects influenced him. With some he specifically mentioned them.
Not him but while he did mention he was influenced by Ideon, And Gundam, in different occasions, he didn't actually made a simplified relationship like the ones you did.

And he just mentioned Mazinger as being an anime he enjoyed as a kid, nothing more.

Please state the sources of your claims, thank you.

>>144735259
>All of those mechanics are kinda or represented in the EoE when Unit 01 becomes the Tree of Life itself.
So you mean the Tree of Souls is the Tree of Life in that chart? Eva becomes it in the sense that it contains all the souls of mankind?

>>144737011
While that's true, it's not like there's an actual definition. Derrida was just fucking around with semiotics when he proposed the concept, and in the end all he ever concluded is that deconstruction is what happens when you break down structuralism. It was inevitable that someone would come along and plant their crappy flag on it.

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There are people who don't like Evangelion who have kept at least 2 threads on the front page of /a/ for a decade.

>>144737086
He did mention Okamoto and Kubrick being an influence, Sadamoto said the story of Eva is kind of like the one in Ideon, he also mentions Devilman in the same post. We know Anno worked on Nausicaa, he wanted to make a Kushana spin-off and Kushana and Asuka has the same backstory, hence my "waifus" comment. The Yamato one I just pulled out of my ass.

>>144737815
The Tree of Life is actually both several physical entities in eden, that create souls that will become a human as well a a single symbolical/esoterical path to god (The Sephirotic) containing all the 9+1 sephiras. Only god can create souls and life, and the Trees of live(or souls) are a manifestation of god itself.
It's kinda of a "condensated/overlaped" concepts into one single thing. Which Eva also does such as Rei being a the same time, Shinji's mother, Humanity's mother, a regular girl, and God itself.
This concept of condensing is also present in psychoanalisis:

(check deslocation and condensation)
https://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/psychoanalysis/psychterms.html

Old jewish mythology has actually much more in common with eastern esoteric religions than modern Christianity. That "manifestation thing" has a lot in common with japanese Shintou.

>>144738055
I know all those works were somehow influential to Anno, mostly in the sense were the kinda of shows Anno worked on or just enjoyed watching. I think Anno mentioned somewhere he liked watching Yamato too.
My problem was just with the simplification of relating those things as they were actually stated by the staff and not kinda of pulled out of your ass.

>>144738377
It was supposed to be a simplification. Some things we have to deduce ourselves, Anno didn't write a whole book on his eva influences. Specificaly only the Ideon and Okamoto parts were mentioned.

But look into Kushana's backstory, she also had a mother who didn't recognize her and treated her doll as a daughter.

With Devilman I think it's easy to see. The ending of EoE and Devilman is very similar. The both have an apocalyptic ending. They both have demons/angels as primordial beings.

With Gundam it's just a hint but in particular CCA reflects on some mother issues and Amuro Ray is kind of reluctant to pilot the Gundam.

I mean, I just mentioned simplifications since I just treated those as a starting point. If someone is interested they'll anyways look into all of those relations. If someone isn't and will actually take everything I wrote to heart then that means they're silly and irrational so I don't care if they do anyways. They'll be as easily swayed by anyone writing anything.

P.S. Ultraman wasn't brought up here oddly enough.
>>144738295
I'd read into all of this but Eva and maybe Gravity's Rainbow are the only reasons I'm interested in Kabbala at all, so I kind of lack motivation.

>>144738377
>It might not be an exaggeration to say that if you add "Ideon" and "Devilman" together and divide by two, you get "Evangelion".

Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, co-creator of Evangelion

http://eva.onegeek.org/pipermail/evangelion/2006-November/003855.html

>>144739590
>sadamoto
>co-creator
KEK.

Is Devilman any good?

>>144740364
I watched it more for "historical" reasons. I'd say it has some really good parts, but you after be a bit lenient with a lot of it if you want to enjoy yourself. The OVA adaptation was pretty good and cuts down a bit on the cheese but it adapts only 2/5 volumes.

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>>144740364
It's basically a more homosexual version of Eva.

>>144740364
Its great. Full of playful edginess.

>>144729498
I saw Gundam, I want to see Devilman and Yamato though.

>>144733786
They're exactly the same, kek.

>Thread about Eva influences
>Not mentioning Ultraman
Fuck all of you

>>144742875
I mentioned him already.

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>anime
>deep
Watch some kino

>>144742956
Will it help me become /tv/ cancer?

>>144735705
>vomiting terms like "Oedipal Symbolism" and "Complex characters"
Technically he was making fun of the terms others use.

>>144743073
t.pleb

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Hack fraud.

>>144733495
TVTropes didn't invent that definition, I think.
I heard it's somewhat older, dating back to earliest online comunities discussiong Watchmen, but I don't know anything more.

>>144733537
>>144733311
Behold!
Idiocy!

>>144743534
it's still no less offensively wrong

>>144733508
>Freud
Might as well have read fantasy books

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>>144740364

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>>144743926
>>144740364

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>>144743926

>>144743345
>No homages!
>Not ever!

>>144744192
>Gainax rips something off
>It's a homage!
Every time

>>144729498
To be fair the people who call Evangelion "deconstruction" probably have never seen Eva either

>>144733720
>symbolism
I love this meme. Could you point to me exactly where symbolism is used in NGE? Before you do it I'd suggest you to think about the definition of symbol.

>>144743740
It's pretty right if you accept a loose interpretation of the term.

Not to say calling a fictional work "a deconstruction of X" carries any insight though.

>>144745935
Viewing a genre as a structural entity is a correct, but ultimately worthless assumption.
It doesn't say anything.

>>144729498
>NGE ... broke the mold
You don't understand what a deconstruction is.

>>144729944
>You need to experience what's being commented on in order to understand the commentary
ftfy

>>144744891
The very first instance of symbolism happens 45 seconds into the first episode, that's in the opening credits, even.
The first instance of symbolism in the series proper is visible at roughly 20 seconds into the episode.

Do you understand what symbolism is?

>>144746229
>The first instance of symbolism in the series proper is visible at roughly 20 seconds into the episode.
What are you referring to?

>>144730764
Germany has an excess of furries, not weebs.

>>144746528
The first episode, obviously.
I'm referring to the doves flying away right after the half second cut to Rei in the street

>>144729498
The original anime is pretty good and EoE is one of the best animated things ever made.

The Rebuilds are a heaping pile of shit and you should feel ashamed if you like them, though.

>>144746981
Oh, thought so. That's 80 seconds into the episode, not 20.

>>144747105
not if you don't count the 60seconds of OP

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>>144729498
Eva has a fun edge that I have yet to see replicated or precede it.
Nagai's works have the edge and violence all the way through.
Tomino's work have a real life tone to them all the way through.
Eva feels like it might jump to silly or serious at any time and it's well done.
This has nothing to do with the deconstruction but it's something that makes it special

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>Have at least 1 eva thread in the catalog every day since /a/'s conception

hmmm

>>144736011
>Freud had one of the most breakthrough realizations in the history of man
more like asspull
>Do you think the basic mind organization it vastly different in African people
Yes, obviously

>>144729498
>when they have never even seen/read: Ideon, Devilman, Gundam, Nausicaa, Yamato, Mazinger, and other works that influenced it?

But we did.

You're just a youngfag who wasn't around for that era, and thinks everyone is as pleb as you.

Don't lump us in with your Type B otaku shitfest.

>>144729498
What does it mean to "deconstruct"? Does it mean that the show did something differently compared to the rest?

>>144733185
The writing is shit, almost everything is shit bar the animation which is its only saving grace. And even then it us wasted on such a shitstain like eva. Disgusting.

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>>144729944
>you need to experience an anime that influenced an anime that influenced the anime industry

I was actually speechless after what you just said, anon

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>>144730453
>>144733110
>>144733786
Here you go.

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>>144733110
>>144733786
>>144750127
Fixed that for you.

>>144750127
>1090
>9
WHAT?!

>>144749909
You are shit

>>144749909
In other words you have literally no idea what you're talking about. No grasp of direction, or photgraphic composition. No grasp of plot structure. No grasp of character writing. No grasp of illustration or animation. No genre savvy. No basic knowledge of the context of the show's creation. You're completely media illiterate. You know literally nothing relevant to even forming let alone utilizing a grading criteria. You have eyes and you sat braindead in front of a screen while the show played. That's the grand sum of what you have to bring to the table. We might as well sit a chimp down to it and ask it what what it thought for all the use you are.

Overrated anime. Needs to die.