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Jojo Part 5

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Hey /a/ I'm rereading part 5, and for me it's one of my least favorite parts, but I've seen some anons defend it as top tier. Anyone care to explain why they think that? I think Giorno and Diavalo are a little bland and the overall plot isn't too interesting, but I'd like to see some arguments

>ITT Explain why Part 5 is not shit
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It's not top tier. Just finish it and move on. The only thing that could make part 5 interesting is an anime adaption since it's nonstop action.
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Giorno might be the worst Jojo, but the group is overall the best JoJo gang. Just think of Bruno being the MC also Mista was funny as fuck and Trisha was a qt.

Also post Narancia
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>>140200770
It's got some very creative stands, the Passione gang is fun to watch, it's just that without any really good translations, you miss a bunch of details.

For example, Mista adores Clint Eastwood.
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>>140201102
To add on, Giorno has a bunch of aspects to him that aren't quite as clear, like when he's not able to be the cool-headed badass he tries to be.

Diavolo is a bit bland though. At least in comparison to the others.
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>>140201102
Both of those translations are bad.
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>>140201248
The new translations are way better though. More accurate than 1-3.
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>>140201221
>>140201102
>>140201006
Appreciate the actual, responses, didn't realize some of the stuff that was lost in the bad translation

Also I still like it and I was actually loving it but for some reason when Diavolo first tries to kill Trish I lose interest immensely for some reason, thankfully the climax is hype as fuck
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sup gays
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Is Bruno a vague asshole or do the translations make him seem more mysterious and unclear than he actually is?
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>>140201448
Yeah, that's when it really falls apart in terms of the translations. The wiki being based off of those scans makes it even hazier. It's best to wait until it gets animated, or when it gets fully translated. Which ever comes first.
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>>140201538
He's the team dad who has to try and balance the mission with his teammates. He admits various times that it's not as easy as he wishes.
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>>140201701
But after he becomes a zombie he starts acting super weird.
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>>140200770
A lot of Giorno's character isn't as visible as in other jojo. If you're paying attention, it's heavily hinted that Gio is merely faking being as Jotaro as he is in front of the others. He's got skills and brains, but he isn't invincible like some like to say.

Besides Diavolo is still a well written opponent, sure being paranoid and being uber proud in King Crimson isn't flashy, but it does the job. Besides he's badass, every time he appears someone die, shit gets done when he's on the scene.
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>>140201766
I feel like Araki could have done more with Diavolo having a split personality, thats what set him apart from Kira who also was a guy who wanted to be left alone
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Is it wrong for me to like Battle tendecy more than Steel ball run I just dont know if I should.
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>>140202315
This is /a/, you're not allowed to have opinions. You like SBR the best out of all the Jojos besides JJL
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>>140202315
Nah not really, I feel like Battle Tendency is the first instance of Jojo getting good
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>>140202117
maybe but it's useless to think about whatifs. I prefer to focus on seeing that whatever was done in part 5 was generally done well.
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>>140201998
That's the point. He thinks fate is on his side, when it's him just messing with everything.
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Reminder that every part is good.
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>>140202591
Really nigger you think Phantom Blood and Vento Aureo are good kill yourself my man.
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>>140202591
I don't think anyone saying any part is bad
For me when I saw threads talking about favorite parts, people who would say part 5 rarely seem to give any reasons why the personally like it, and I wanted to make sure I was missing something, hence why I made this thread
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>>140202716
If we didn't have Phantom Blood we literally wouldn't have any other part. Plus how can you hate based niggas like Speedwagon and Zeppeli
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>>140202959
Speedwagon= over rated piece of shit does literally nothing only cucks himself in giving the joestars money and yell all phantom blood
Zeppeli= you got me there he is pretty based.
Also just because something good came out of something horrible does not justify it.
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>>140202894
I liked part 5 because of the diverse and likable Brojo gang. If you don't treat Giorno as the main character (he really isn't) and instead treat it as a story of bros just trying to save a girl, it's a pretty enjoyable part.

And some of those fights get outright batshit. I still love the Oasis and Green Day fight.
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>>140203125
I think Speedwagon overhype def became a think after the anime aired, but dude literally turns his life around and becomes this amazing benefactor
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>>140200770
The translation butchers a lot of things. When they didn't understand something, they'd make things up. They mistranslated 'resolve' as 'conscience' and 'consciousness' on numerous occasions, and the conversations and speeches the characters give on resolve are Giorno's major character development moments. Giorno is still meant to have near total clarity of though for the most part, which is why everyone follows him and his plans until he drives the car into the river during the White Album fight, and he realises he can't just pull everyone out of bad situations unscathed all the time. Diavolo was bland because he was literally meant to have one character trait, he's so far gone into paranoia and schizoid delusion that the only thing he cares about is remaining anonymous, he's willing to murder his daughter who's never met him on the off chance that someone SOMEHOW managed to get his location or name from her despite the fact she doesn't even know he exists. The fights are also pretty fucking good, i gave me the most 'action movie' vibe from all the parts.

And the translation butchers characterisation, all he characters felt samey when in reality they're all crazy diverse, not as visually diverse as the SC crew but in terms of personality and how they play off one another they're excellent. The main plot was pretty simple though, rise up to gain the boss' trust then betray him and hunt him down. And Araki didn't capitalise on Giorno being the son of fucking DIO. That had more plot relevance in 6 with the bastard children than it did in 5, where the whole selling point was 'LOOK ITS DIOS SON WHO ACTS LIKE DIO AND JOINS THE MAFIA'.

It's not my favourite part at all, but it's around mid way for me since I read it in Italian. Pretty much everyone who read it in another language and then tries reading the current English translation will tell you that it's terrible and makes stuff up while also getting a bunch of other stuff flat out wrong.
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>>140200770
I think it's good.
I honestly liked Giorono because of all the bullshit he pulled with the stand to win fights. He's a good JoJo, not as good as the others but still good enough.
The gang, as many have said before are pretty damn good and have very good interactions.
The fights in it are some of the best and insane. Power creep is kinda of an issue towards the end. The Green Day and Oasis fight is probably the best one, but Oasis for example is one of the most bullshit stands out there just because he's fuck huge range and deadly ability.

My only complaint about it is the final fight. It just builds up to it, then you have the chase after the arrow and then...nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's honestly the most disappointing final "fight".
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>>140203498
Yeah some of the fights are great, the final Diavolo, the Grateful dead, little feet, stuff like that...but for some reason White Album and the two stand users after the first interaction between with Diavolo bore me for some reason

Also Gold Experience Requiem is fucking amazing
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>>140203498
I felt the same way. In hindsight I'd say part 5 is one of my favorites just for the supporting cast. Giorno is by far the blandest JoJo bar maybe Jonathan, but his crew carry his lack of personality incredibly well.
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>>140202959
I honestly really liked Phantom Blood. I don't get why so many people hate it so much or act like it's really bad. I think it definitely has its flaws, but it was the first piece of work, and I enjoy it for what it is. Also Jonathan is best Jojo.
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>>140200770
i'm also rereading Part 5 now (finished my Part 4 reread early)
What I like about it is the story structure is very well thought out-- part 4 may be superior in drama and characterization, but its plot is weaker-- more episodic and Josuke's time travel paradox is never resolved.

Part 5 is also charming because it's where Jojo got truly Bizarre beyond all possible reckoning.

God bless araki.
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>>140204413
There wasn't a time travel paradox. Why do so many people think that the stranger was future Josuke?
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>>140204440
Araki likes to change and drop plot points at times so it's entirely possible that it was supposed to be Josuke and he just never followed up on it.
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>>140204274
I wasn't saying it was bad, I was just saying that people who say its bad should appreciate the fact that it's the first jojo and because of it we have all the other parts that are great and weird.
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>>140204550
Exactly, but it was never hinted besides them looking similar (which makes sense since Josuke tried to emulate him). It was never implied to be him by Araki at any point so you can't really call it 'unresolved', since there was nothing to resolve. It could have been meant to be Josuke but that chapter didn't at all try to suggest that, he was just a random delinquent. Sorry anon, it's just that the people who always parrot it saying that it was definitely meant to happen are retarded. There's really no suggestion of it ever made and it's never brought up again. I don't know if Araki had even come up with BtD yet.
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>>140201763
Probably because he's a zombie.
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Its my favorite part and gio is my favorite giogio. I don't know about all of you but the whole thing really clicked with me. Mind you I love all the parts for their different reasons.
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>>140204584
Oh, yeah, I was saying you were, I was speaking more in general. I agree with you, people should appreciate it more, it's what set up everything we have now.
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>>140206632
Same here. It's something about his face that's very expressive. Just by looking at him, I can imagine what he's thinking all the time.

To me Jojo was never about the central plight of the protagonists, except in Phantom Blood. Giogio is a comfy main character that gets shit done and is a joy to watch work with the gang. And that fits Vento Aureo perfectly.
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>>140200770
part 5 is also my least favorite part, but i agree with others, bad scans and translations are a big part of that. I'm actually looking forward to seeing it animated and giving it a second chance. There are some cool stands and great fights, i really enjoy Doppio vs. Metallica. always remember that there are no bad parts of jojo, just some you like more than others
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Part 5 pissed me off because Fugo didn't even get a fight, that mirror one was mostly Giorno and Abbachio. Is Purple Haze Distortion worth the read?
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I feel like part needed a proper introduction to the
group. Part 4 started too slow but when reading part 5 I felt like I skipped two chapters or something.
Also I couldn't get over the names. I guess it's worse if you speak Italian.
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>>140200770
They just like it because it's one of the prettier Parts and the Japanese adore it
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>>140200770
The fights are top tier. Bruno is awesome. Doppio is awesome. Narancia and Trish are cute.
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>>140202315
>Is it wrong for me to like Battle tendecy
Yes, it's the worst part.
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>>140208943
I dont think its fully translated yet
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>>140208943
It's pretty metal, definitely worth reading. And the reason Fugo didn't get a full fight was because after not going with them after the betrayal he was meant to rejoin the boss and they were to fight him instead of Green Day and Oasis. Araki wrote his Stand with being a villain in mind, hence why it was difficult to write as a protagonist. He ended up dropping it because he was apparently going through some tough shit at the time and had grown so attached to the characters he couldn't bear writing them killing each other, let alone drawing it. So he introduced Ciocolatta who had a similar Stand and made him the most evil despicable character you can imagine and had Giorno absolutely destroy him as a kind of therapy for himself. And while he didn't write PHF he helped come up with the concept and dos the illustrations for it, so it's the closest LN to being canon.
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>>140210177
I wish Araki wrote a biography or something because it seems like he leads a really interesting life
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>>140200770
>>ITT Explain why Part 5 is not shit
Because Part 6 exists

Pic related is just one of the reasons

If you take Anasui out of the plot it would make no fucking difference, anything he has done could have been done by Wheater Report.
Also that fucking forced romance with Jolyne.

>While they are about to die "Jotaro let me marry you daughter because I know I'm the best for her"
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what's this expression supposed to convey?
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>>140200770
The whole part is just a bunch of stuff that happen. There's not as dramatic of a plot as the other parts, and the characters aren't as fleshed out as well as other parts.

However, it does have some of the best stands in the series and the fights are always top notch.
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I liked 5 a lot, much more than 6 and 3.
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i feel that araki meant to build up the hype around diavolo as he did with DIO (part 3), you know, his face being revealed at the end, having an aura of mystery and this otherworldly sensation around him, with this huge and vast influence of minions who are loyal to him, but araki failed to make diavolo as remarkable as dio since he lacked dio's charisma
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>>140201221
Diavolo is "bland" in that his tone is very official and polite, even when he's trying to kill everyone.

Someone who was French managed to read a translation that was 100% accurate, and due to the wonders of the French language with tones being visible through text, found a whole lot of shit was horribly wrong and mis-represented with the awful scanlation most have already gone and read. Hence the startup to re-translate it all once again.

...Until they stopped for localization.
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>>140215590
>Diavolo is "bland" in that his tone is very official and polite, even when he's trying to kill everyone.
what do you mean? the way he speaks? that he has a formal way of expressing himself? since i've only read the english translations, such details escapes me, are there particular differences between the villains manners?

i can imagine that kira for example, has a very formal and restrained way of speaking compared to dio, who would strike me as more extravagant and dramatic
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>>140203498\
>Oasis and Green Day fight
7 pages of mudah and dumping the scumbag into the combustible garbage bin.
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>>140200770
The thing I hate most about Part 5 is Gold Experience. It's "Asspull: The Stand", and that's before GER even happens. It's just too convenient. There are no rules for its powers, nothing clever like Crazy Diamond's restorative abilities. It just has a solution for almost every situation.
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>>140200770
Giorno is not bland his personality is a mixed between Jonathan and Dio
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Part 5's probably just the worst.

Phantom Blood has the excuse of only being an adventure story for 3/4 of its run and basically just being a really good prologue for Joseph's story. Part 3 is very similar, but has better fights, villains and is just the most "safe" one overall. 6 is really underrated since it's the best at nothing, but its plot is a lot more interesting and it does a lot of thins really well.

5 just has a strong supporting cast and literally nothing else. It was poorly planned out, with a boring protagonist AND antagonist, and while the fights are cool it's just especially lacking compared to the others. Bruno-Mista-Narancia and their interactions with Trish are all it's got.

There's a reason Araki felt horrible, painful sympathy for Kira but doesn't give a single fuck about the fact that Diavolo is dying eternally.
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>>140215568
I really like Diavolo. He is just a different kind of villain in comparison to Dio.

Diavolo is all about the paranoid fear of exposing oneself to others. His distaste to his previous life which resulted in him having a daughter, created even a split personality.

The execution of his double self is masterful. The cheery personality that turns to him, talking through a phone, showing signs of clairvoyance is an additional property to his time eating stand.

He is not suffering from illusions of grandeur like Valentine. He is a down to earth guy, having a phobia of exposing himself to others.

Of being seen and his vulnerabilities leaking out. For most people this is a non issue because most people are like herbivores, preferring to turn a blind eye to the real nature of this world, living in bliss thinking that nothing bad will ever happen to them.

Doesn't hurt to be too careful.
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>>140216305
considering his environment, that he was the head of the mafia, his paranoia is reasonable,
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>>140216305
The problem is that in a traditional narrative this kind of character is better suited as a protagonist, supporting character, or incidental villain. A proper "villain" meets and opposes the protagonist in a meaningful way. There's meaning in the stark contrast between Giorno and Diavolo, but it's more ABOUT Diavolo's problem and how Giorno opposes his paranoid selfishness as a character than Diavolo's actions and characteristics elevating Giorno.

Dio brings the best out of Jonathan and Jotaro. Kars contrasts with Joseph excellently and makes his trickery, guile and luck all the more impressive. Kira has a similar relation to Josuke as Diavolo does to Giorno, but we understand Kira better. He has more nuance, which creates a better relationship with Josuke and his gang. Pucci is fucking weird and a bit understated, but because of this he's pretty memorable and how he relates to Jolyne and the themes of the story is a lot more satisfying. Etc.

Basically, Diavolo's detachment is a good contrast with Giorno, but it sacrifices the weight of his antagonistic presence in return and the story just wasn't sufficiently built around this.
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Kraftwerk is pretty badass.
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>>140200770

I think Giorno is bland as shit but Diavolo is a great villain, or maybe I just really like KC, his power and the overall concept behind him, his attitude, more or less but the other things make him stand out a lot imo.
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>>140214834

That was part of his character, he was a maniac after all in a way, and Jolyne said yes because, fuck it, the world is ending.
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>>140216794
I keep reading complaints in Bleach threads about how Kubo matches opponents so that they match each other's strengths and weaknesses.

In Vento Aureo, Araki did not do this and yet I see complaints again. imo part 5 has a more realistic approach to the clash of it's main characters.

The reason of fighting doesn't have to be always some personal feud, conflict of interests is the most common reason of war and this is what we read here.

I don't care so much about the presentation, as I care about the essence of things which in this case translates into the penultimate stance of Diavolo.
>>
I will try to explain why I love it

>Giorno
Most people say he is "bland", but he is literally Jonathan and Dio mixed together. Jonathan was fast thinking and courageous, but he was kind of a hot head and did things out of rage sometimes. Dio was calm, cool and collected, but he thought he was way better than others.
Giorno is fast thinking, calm, courageous, but he doesn't work that well under pressure, and sometimes he thinks that he is the only one that can do anything in the fight, which may end up fucking them. (White Album, Green Day are great examples) But he is extremely reliable, being strong and also a more competent healer than Josuke in some aspects. Mista in the White Album fight, getting shot multiple times just because he believes in Giorno's resolve. Same thing with Narancia and the Clash fight, his main goal was to help Giorno, because he knew Giorno would be able to help him. (Seeing as Giorno was the only one that knew what was going on, and that Giorno could get him a new tongue and what not). Even Abbachio does this, in his Man In The Mirror fight, he cuts his own hand just to get the key to Giorno. When Giorno doesn't run, he gets mad, but when Giorno shows that he didn't run because he could save everyone, Abbachio was kind of glad. Trish in the Notorious B.I.G fight, she was a bitch that didn't really like anyone there and didn't want to be there, but when she saw she could save Giorno, and that Giorno could save everyone, she risked her life to get his hand. Bruno, mostly in the first Diavolo fight, he gets saved by Giorno not once, but twice, which makes him respect him more, which makes Bruno's death even sadder, when you think that Giorno wanted to save Bruno by putting the turtle inside the receiver, but ended up having to "revive" him. Fugo didn't have one of these moments, but I'm pretty sure something like this happens in PHF, which I haven't read, sadly. In general, Giorno has hidden layers to his personality.
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>>140214834
Fuck you Anasui is awesome.
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>>140217115
yeah pretty much this, hopefully when part 5 get a anime they see him in a different light
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>>140215568
Diavolo is literally Part 3 Dio. Dio is only a good villain because Part 1.
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>>140217115
Welp, part 2 to my huge ass rant

>Diavolo
Diavolo is the only thing I agree on being "bland". His goals don't make that much sense, neither does his Stand, but he is...interesting.
You see, the biggest thing that makes Diavolo a bad character is the fact that his backstory is extremely poorly translated. I think he would be a good character if we really knew where he came from. Either way, Diavolo is not that interesting, he tries to be all high and mighty, and he is kind of like Kira in the sense of "erasing any evidence", but Kira was pretty stealthy and had a plan, Diavolo was just kind of...there.
However, Doppio is great. He is all calm and cute, but he can't control being taken over Diavolo whenever he gets mad. He also truly thinks he is another person, and can only use Epitaph. But, as we saw, he CAN break his rules, and use King Crimson's arm, and I always asked why didn't Diavolo just say "I gave you King Crimson", but it's because, if he did that, he would be kind of breaking his own autistic rules of "We are totally different people".
There is a video somewhere called "Why Diavolo is a great villain and why Part V is GOAT" which explains his personality in a way I couldn't, but I think that video tries too hard to make Diavolo cool. Either way, the whole fate thing for Diavolo sound correct, and that redeems him a bit.
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>>140217075
>I keep reading complaints in Bleach threads about how Kubo matches opponents so that they match each other's strengths and weaknesses.

That's not what I'm talking about.

>The reason of fighting doesn't have to be always some personal feud, conflict of interests is the most common reason of war and this is what we read here.
This is also not what I'm talking about.

I'm saying that in most cases a villain, in SOME fashion, elevates the hero. Either they end up reinforcing the hero's strengths, cause them to (directly or indirectly) tackle their weaknesses, or serve as a counterpoint to help express the hero's strengths better. This has nothing to do with "Ah, you're a water person, I'm an ice person, the perfect fight..." or personal issues between the characters. Diavolo is simple by the nature of his vice, but this leads to him not elevating or emphasizing Giorno's strengths and weaknesses much more than nearly any antagonist would.

He's a good character and a good villain, but the story would need to be specifically crafted to work around this. Otherwise, he just ends up as being less interesting as the story's core antagonist, which bleeds into Giorno seeming a bit duller as well.

TL;DR, Araki picked a good but difficult to use character and didn't plan out his story well enough beforehand.
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>>140217273
And Dio even being in Part 3 fucks over Part 1's ending.

The only reason we like Part 3 Dio is his charisma.
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>>140217614
The only reason we like Part 3 Dio is his stand and roadroller.

Maybe Araki should give Diavolo a roadroller.
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>>140217350
And now for part 3, fuckeeers

>The Crew
I think the crew is the best one in the series. They are all so...different from one another.
Like how people say "Polnareff is the only good character in part 3!", I always saw that comment as a way to say "Polnareff is the only different character in part 3!". Joseph was mostly serious (with some stupid moments just to remember us that yes, he is Joseph), Avdol was mostly serious (with stupid moments after he came back to try to give him a personality), Kakyoin was mostly serious, Jotaro was full serious, and even Iggy was serious and boring. Polnareff was a goof, that had serious moments. He was the opposite from the others, which made him interesting.
In part 5, everyone is different, mostly because of their reasons to be in Passione. Bruno is the group's "mom", he is the one that would sacrifice anything for his crew, which he does. Twice. He dies trying to not only protect his crew, but a girl he just met, and he is revived and dies again, doing the same thing. Mista is the goof, but with a very noble spirit. If he wasn't in Passione, he would be in jail, so he tries to make the best out of this opportunity. He is also no scared to make sacrifices, he is serious when he fights, but he is pretty goofy, making jokes on how they are just in it for "the money", and stuff like that.
Narancia is really interesting. He is there for his friends, not for the organization. He is scared all the time, but he stills fights because of his friends. He was betrayed once, but when he sees Trish's hand bleeding, he can see how they are one of the same, they were betrayed; they were all betrayed. So that is the only group that can accept him. In the end, he is extremely scared, and wants to go home, and ends up dying. Which brings up one of the coolest Giorno moments, when he makes a bed of flowers from Narancia's homeland.
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>>140217670
I will just keep going

>The Crew (2)
Abbachio is a mystery to me, but I will try to explain how I see it. He sees Passione as a way to repay for what he did, he thinks that if he does his best, even if he dies, he is repaying for being corrupt and getting his friend killed. He is also very strict, trying to show Giorno all the time that he is better than him and what not. Never liked Abbachio that much, but he is kind of cool.
Fugo is my favorite. He really is in it for his own gain, and he knows he is better than most of them. He knows his Stand is the strongest, and it is stated that he is extremely smart, so, if you mix his lack of being loyal, with his brains, you can see that he had total reason to leave the gang. If he did stay in the gang, there would be a huge chance that no one died, but he knew the risk was still too much. I haven't read PHF, but I'm sure it makes his personality that much better.
And last but not least, Trish. She is mostly a bitch the whole part, but you can't really blame her; she is stuck with people she has never met, to meet a father she never met, and a bunch of people want to kill her (even her dad). Even if there are times she could help, she doesn't want to. She doesn't want to help these people that pretty much kidnapped her. But when she does help, you can see her courageous side (Notorious B.I.G). She is definetively not one of my favorites, but she is still a pretty good character, and a huge plot point.
>>
>>140217855
I know no one is reading this shit but whatever

>The Part In General
Now, just miscellaneous shit.
The part is pretty short, it's not that dragged out. The fights have the perfect length each, and the plot chapters are quick and condensed. A lot of people say "BUT IT'S SO CONFUSING" because of shit like GER, King Crimson, and some other shit, but it's mostly because the part consists mostly of the characters fighting, and creating bonds through such fighting. They learn a lot about each other, mostly because of Giorno being a newcommer.
The stands are also top tier. Sex Bullets, King Crimson, Gold Experience, Purple Haze, Sticky Fingers, Kraftwerk, Green Day, Oasis, Grateful Dead, Metallica, GER, all of these are extremely well designed stands with great powers.
The fights are my favorites too. If you dislike Grateful Dead, you have a terminal case of shit taste. They really show who the characters are, seeing as in other parts, the character development came from "chatting", in part V, it's all about fightings; they are living the lives of gangsters, after all. The fights are extremely fast paced with Araki's best implementations of creative ways to use stands. I won't talk about everything, but one of my favorites is how Giorno develops Gold Experience. The Baby Face fight is when he LEARNS he can heal, he doesn't just do it and is like "Oh I had this all the time oops" like Star Finger and shit like that.
All in all, my favorite part. Can't fucking wait for the anime.
>>
>>140217570
Why can't the 'hero' shine by overcoming obstacles set by the villain or by the world itself.
Why must the villain become a stepping stone.

The story of Giorno is a story of how camaraderie overcomes solitude. And we've seen this already in almost all of Araki's works.
I can't see how this is any different from Jotaro and his friends banding against Dio or Josuke and his, banding against Kira.

Why must there be external conflict and not internal in order to achieve elevation, why can't Giorno sing a requiem to his old self and become the hero, his new ideal self.
>>
>>140218082
I read it all anon. You pretty much nailed how I feel about the part except that I disagree on the diavolo stuff.
>>
>>140220407
It's okay, I'm still kind of undecided on how I see Diavolo, I think he is ok but I dunno, I'm rereading Part V right now, so my opinion on him may change. I'm also trying to fix the grammar errors in the bad translation and put them in the color scans, and more now than ever I see why the old translations suck butt
>>
>>140218772
>Why can't the 'hero' shine by overcoming obstacles set by the villain or by the world itself.
They can.
>Why must the villain become a stepping stone.
They don't.

>The story of Giorno is a story of how camaraderie overcomes solitude. And we've seen this already in almost all of Araki's works.
Yeah, I agree. I never said otherwise.

>Why must there be external conflict and not internal
I was talking EXCLUSIVELY about internal, because that's where the other villains are stronger despite Diavolo falling in the middle in terms of complexity (and paradoxically being the simplest).

>I don't see how this is different from...Dio or Kira.
Then you're not separating quality of character from quality of role.

Dio is an extremely simple villain in 3 and this works because it's a very simple story. Dio is outlandish and exciting because he's a maniacal figure whose greed and selfishness contrasts with Jotaro's stoicism and morality.

Kira is on the other side of the spectrum despite fitting the same framework. Instead of a simple, caricature villain, he's a fleshed out character with understandable but twisted motives. He's probably the most nuanced, relatable final boss Araki ever wrote, and because of this we get greater insight into Josuke as well. His EXISTENCE gives more weight to Josuke's compassion and ability to make friends. He has several facets to him, which helps in establishing him as the antagonizing agent more thoroughly.
[To Be Continued]
>>
>>140220772
So you have Dio, a rather simple villain who works because he's engaging on the surface level, and Kira, a villain with depth who is enticing because has nuance. Both villains fall into a similar narrative structure, and they both entertain the audience pretty directly. Enter Diavolo.

Now, I'm not saying Diavolo is a bad character. In fact, he's pretty interesting. The problem is he's the main villain in the same kind of story structure and with a similar tone and pattern of events as Part 3-6. By his nature as a character, Diavolo can't provide anything himself that the other villains can't. He's entirely single minded and tries to preserve anonymity, so his interactions are limited. On top of this, Jojo as a series had a pattern of villains having more influence on the broader scope of the narrative and being more intimately antagonistic with the reader. Dio is pretty much just reactionary, Kars is a more proactive threat and more clearly symbolizes antagonism towards humanity than Dio, Part 3 Dio pulls back by being more of a shadowy mastermind but sends more threats directly at the party, and Kira's a bit odd in that the scale is lower and he's less involved, but he lays cunning traps and is more well known by the reader.

So Diavolo, by being paranoid, regresses backwards to a role like Part 3 Dio...except without the presence or bombastic, rewarding characterization. So the only truly unique thing he's got going for him is the entire point of his character...which is a big step down from Kira as well.

So Diavolo can't carry on charisma or character, so what COULD he carry on without changing him. The answer is Theme.

By changing the narrative to be consumed in the thematic shadow of Diavolo's vices you give more weight to Diavolo as an antagonist. If the entire part revolved around fights where discretion was key or something similar, people would find him to be a better antagonist. He's a great character, but the story makes him less effective.
>>
>>140222664
With this I can agree. Diavolo is indeed a type of villain who does not fit the type of story Araki tried to tell his readers.
It somehow causes friction, resulting in a less enjoyable experience. Yes, all true.
>>
>>140223210
And if they actually had him as a reflection of how the crew acts to protect Trish instead of just having them band together, it would make the Requiem more satisfying. Giorno would have to grow beyond his childish naivety and understand that discretion and caution are extremely important, but not relent in his goal of being the Gang Star with his friends.

It really just writes itself, so it's a shame the actual comic is pretty much just "no but friendship tho".
>>
>>140214834
Part 6 is great, when I first read it, I had it partially spoiled for me that some crazy shit happened at the end, so there was always this cool sense of dread that I got while reading it. Plus Weather Report is sick as fuck
>>
>>140210177
Well Fugo has Purple Haze Distortion in the Jojo game, so I think that makes it canon.
>>
>>140200770
It IS the weakest part for a lot of people.
Usually of the stand parts people either hate six or five, some unlucky bastards both.

Part five maybe the weakest of them all but it is still hype has fuck. Push though.
Wait until Rome, then you'll know it was worth it.
>>
>>140200770
>I've seen some anons defend it as top tier. Anyone care to explain why they think that?
It's just good ol' 4chan contrarianism.
>>
>>140224841
I don't know how you can hate Part 6 when you get to the bullshit that is Heavy Weather Report.
>>
>>140217350
OP here, thank you for that video its pretty great
>>
>>140225293
It's tragic but some cases of shit tastes are terminal. I personally think six is really stronger. Stronger than most people seem to rate it at least.
>>
>>140225648
Maybe it's because I just finished Part 6, but it's definitely one of my favorites. It had way less dropped plot points compared to Part 5. The only one that comes to mind right away is Emporio's mom's bone.
>>
>>140226423
Its amazing that we had a part where Jojo's actually lose in the end, and we finally have all of dios empire taken out
>>
>>140200770
Best fights and best stands. For people that mainly like Jojo for the action and fights, it's easy to see why they would consider it among the best.
>>
>>140224851
It's one of the most popular parts in Japan though. Considering it came out before 4chan existed I don't believe "4chan contrarianism" plays any factor in that.
>>
>>140200770
What scans should I read for this part? the normal ones or the colour ones?
>>
>>140217115
All the examples you're giving for why you like Giorno is why I hate Giorno. You keep saying that everyone is risking their lives to save Giorno. It's always Giorno, Giorno, Giorno. Everyone likes Giorno. Giorno is the most important crew member. He's an inspiration to us all. Giorno can do no wrong. If only Giorno were here.

Giorno sucks because he's perfect. Every time he fucks up, he either turns it around and pulls out some bullshit solution to the problem to make him look cool, or his attitude during the fuck up makes some other crew member be like "Wow, what an inspiration Giorno is." Then that crew member defeats the enemy because Giorno inspired them. Giorno's actions don't have negative consequences. And unlike any other Jojo, Giorno doesn't have any redeeming personality talks to make up for that. Even Jotaro has his shitty one liners. Giorno doesn't.
>>
>>140230038
Part 7 fags are so fucking obnoxious. "M-muh flawed MC" or "You can't like smart characters". Fuck off retard, nobody in japan cares about your stupid overrated part and shitty MC.
>>
>>140204440
>>140204550
>>140204584
>>140204841
I feel like Araki had a different idea for BTD when he first wrote Josuke's backstory, even before thinking up Killer Queen or Kira, especially since it did mention how the guy appeared to come from an intense fight. Then started to forget what he wanted to do with it as he continued with the series until settling on what is currently BTD.
That or an editor told him no.
>>
>>140230038
Everyone sucks Dio's dick too though.
>>
>>140227771
Well since everyone other than Pucci and FF, rip best girl is revived, I guess that probably means his sons are alive as well
>>
>>140230452
Johnny a shit, but Giorno is obnoxious. Even Jonathan is more flawed.
>>
>>140231722
Yeah, but DIO is an antagonist. Antagonists are better when they're smart because it gives the protagonists an edge. DIO's goals are evil, so when he amasses all his followers, it makes him scary that he can convince people to do his bidding.
>>
>>140231932
Nigga wanted to be a gangster, sounds pretty evil.
>>
>>140231932
>because it gives the protagonists an edge
I worded this badly. I mean it gives the protagonists a challenge to surmount.
>>
>>140231770
I mean, Giorno is a cold blooded murderer, but that isn't really portrayed as a flaw.
>>
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>>140230452
Fucking this. Johnny is easily the worst Jojo and SBR is nothing special at all.
>>
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>>140230452
>>
>>140232156
And of course the SBR babby can't do anything but post bait meme images like a stupid little shit that he is. Fuck you faggot.
>>
>>140232266
>This butthurt that people like Jojo.
Get out.
You shouldn't be shitting on any part.
>>
>>140232266
Good Lord are you angry.

I'll respond to your argument. Sure you can like smart characters. But being smart doesn't mean being perfect. Josuke is smart. He usually wins in the end, but he doesn't always have the upper hand. Joseph is almost always several steps ahead of the enemy like Giorno, but it doesn't always work out in his favor, like during the Esidisi fight.

I like Johnny's flaws because his character arc is about overcoming those flaws. His goal in the race is to "get back to zero." He feels remorse for his actions and he wants to make up for it.

When a character has flaws, those flaws create suspense. The reader doesn't know if the character is going to succeed or not because they know things can go wrong as a result of those flaws.

With Giorno, you already know he's going to win in the end. There's no suspense about what's going to happen. Giorno doesn't give any indication that he won't always win, so reading his fights isn't engaging.
>>
>>140200770
Its my least favorite part and wouldn't bother me much if someone told me skipped it, but its got some of the best fights, stand designs, and supporting cast of the series.
I still like it even though its basically watered down SC and has one of the biggest asspulls in fiction.
>>
>>140232266
shame on you
>>
>>140232902
>With Giorno, you already know he's going to win in the end. There's no suspense about what's going to happen. Giorno doesn't give any indication that he won't always win, so reading his fights isn't engaging.

Thanks for providing me with the stupidest thing I will read today. Always nice to get that out of the way and move on with the day.
>>
>>140233190
Why is it stupid?
>>
>>140232266
Why you are so angry about this?
>>
>>140233244
Because it's 100% bullshit you pulled out of your ass. It makes no sense. Unless you were spoiled you don't fucking know what's going to happen, period. You can pretend "oh it's so predictable" but you're talking out your ass. But even considering that, the Jojos win most of the time, even if they lose it's more of a draw, so the statement is even more retarded and weightless.

There's no suspense is also bullshit, compared to SBR where "oh muh god will sandwich zepelli and his epic pizza meme die?!1/1" is the big moment yet in that case you DEFINITELY already know what's going to happen.

Don't act like SBR is inherently better written than VA or any other part, it's not. In reality it's possibly the worst written part because it completely crumbles mid-way as Araki realizes he packed too much into it and just randomly kills or writes off all the characters and more or less abandons the race (which is 10x more interesting than the corpse bullshit because it was fresh) until the very end. VA or any of the other parts aren't fine literature, but at least they are cohesive and don't get derailed at any point to the extent of shit meme ball.

As for Johnny I don't care how "flawed" he is or whatever. He's an annoying crippled sack of shit with stupid powers and a dumb hat. He's garbage.
>>
>>140233536
>Nigga too retarded to know what dramatic tension is thinks you can only "know" what's going to happen if you get spoiled.
>>
>>140230038
Hey man, I know that I pretty much digged my grave there, but to be honest it is a pretty comfy grave. I may have given out all the reasons you hate him, but I gave all the reasons I love him. I really can't see why not being flawed is bad. Yes, being flawed means you can fix yourself, but Giorno is about transforming. Giorno shows that, even if you arr born in a bad condition, have no biological father to take care of you, abusive parents, suffer from bullying and all that shit, you shouldn't give up. You should show that you are a good person all the times, and you should have dreams. And that is Giorno for me. He had a shitty life but he never showed his grumpy side, his evil side, or any of that shit. He just showed that he could be a great person, and we see that his friends love him, and we see Giorno achieving his goals ONLY BECAUSE he earned the trust of a lot of people.
He is inspirational, that is all.
Also, he has my favorite fashion and he his hair is great, perfect design, perfect personality, perfect stand, and having a flaw =/= good character, so there, my reasons to love Giorno.
>>
GAYS
>>
>>140217670
>Hating on the crusaders
>Writing them off as "serious all the time"
>Joseph
>Serious

Fuck off with your twinky, faggy ass crew
>>
>>140228209
>It's one of the most popular parts in Japan though
Nice meme
>>
>>140232067
I agree on Johnny being a shit but SBR got really good whenever Valentine or Alt Diego were the focus
>>
>>140238558
>being mad over someone saying something bad about SC

i'm sorry, i guess, but your crew is pretty shit. polpol is cool tho
>>
I liked both part 5 and 6. I think they are underrated.
>>
>>140240609
>Says someone who made an entire essay on why part 5 is not shit
>>
When do you guys think part 5 anime will air? I'm thinking Summer 2017.
>>
>>140241827
Opinions.
Either way, i still think part 5 is based and part 3 is not that much, but whatever, let's not discuss about it
>>
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>>140214834
>talking shit about 6

fuck off nigga
>>
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>part 5 is bad
that has to be a meme
>>
>>140233536
Holy shit you are so mad.
>>
>>140242170
I skipped part 5.

No regrets.
>>
>>140242894
Skip your life.
>>
>>140242894
>skipping parts meme
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