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A fujoshit told me Shinji x Asuka this wasn't canon even

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A fujoshit told me Shinji x Asuka this wasn't canon even thought they clearly want to fuck each other and more and always end up together in the end. What say you, /a/?
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Nobody wins Evangelion. Shinji least of all.
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In various moments throughout Instrumentality, Asuka tells Shinji that he's a worthless unloveable brat whose very sight makes her sick.

Shinji attempts to strangle her upon realising that she will never stop to hurt him(I don't mean the last scene, I mean Instrumentality again).

I won't say that they are just hateful because that is clearly not true - for instance, Asuka tells Shinji she hates him while being on top of him - but saying she's just being tsundere is retarded.

Shinji is starved of human contact and after Kaworu's death he believes he has no one to turn towards except Asuka. He considers her nothing more than an object, an outlet for his sexual urges and a cure for his social anxiety.

Asuka is capable of seeing that much, which is why she despises him and toys with him. She regards herself as superior to him and considers him her plaything, an outlet for her pent-up frustration(conveniently he's the source of a lot of it as a superior pilot). She isn't interested in him as a person. Sex with Shinji(or rather the potentiality of it)is a means of establishing complete control over him and making him her property, which is her main goal in this relationship. Because she doesn't consider him developed enough to have empathy for other humans, she shows him none. Moreover, her attitude towards Shinji makes her enjoy giving him pain.

When Shinji realises that, first in Instrumentality and later in the final scene, he decides to do what he's been doing forever - get rid of the pain. Except this time instead of running away he opts for physical elimination of the pain's source.

Then Asuka caresses him - does what he asked of her - and he breaks down crying.

They can only hurt each other.
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>>134127727
I think this is the right answer
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>>134128830
Pretty much on point. I still ship them though, but it's more on a fantasy level of if they grew up, got real psychological help and could grow to learn and love eachother.

Shinji can't love anyone until he loves himself. Asuka is also very repulsed by the idea of letting anyone see a weak side of her so there is no room for love there either.
>>
Shinji has feelings Rei, Asuka and Misato but he's confused to what type of feelings they are which leads him to push them away. Karls the first person he opens up to but then he feels betrayed confusing him even more.

TL;DR There is no canon Shinjix, he has mixed feelings for everyone which stop him from pursuing them.
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All that matters is that Rei is the best girl.
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>>134127708
>What say you, /a/?
What? About shippers?

>>134129494
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
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>>134129673
I don't need help sleeping but Rei really is best girl.
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>>134130044
it certainly became more true now that you wrote it here on an anonymous imageboard
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>>134130135
It doesn't become more or less true, it just is true.
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Nice try, but this thread won't bring back moot.
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>>134130044
I almost laughed, really.
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>>134130214
Rei is the best. Now and forever.
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>>134130164
Then it follows that the assertion of this fact is an entirely pointless task. Why are you doing something pointless? Do you have nothing interesting to do in your life?
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>>134130333
At the moment, no, I'm pretty much done doing anything resembling work for the day.

But it's not pointless, because it's contextually directed to the OP.

Because, all that matters is that Rei is best girl, regardless of what some Kaworu fan says.
>>
Literally the worst anime for shipping characters. The Eva fandom is incredible.
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>>134127708
Rei: Incest
Asuka: Douchebag
Kaoru: Loving eachother with Shinji

It's clear whom Shinji is supposed to choose
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>>134130441
It's Sunday you fucker. What kind of work, are you a priest or something? You've probably been shitposting here since morning.

And the OP has nothing to do with Rei but you're still trying to stir up shit.

>>134130526
The ability to pander to any kind of audience no matter the intellectual level is the true genius of Eva. Too bad it forces people like me, who just want to talk about it, with retards like >>134130558
>>134130441
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>>134130658
Are you surprised this thread attracted shitposters?
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>>134130820
I'm not surprised, because every Evangelion thread does. Which is exactly the reason for my frustration.
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>>134127708
>Implying anyone would listen to a fujoshit
You just wanted an Asuka thread, didn't you?
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>>134130917
I feel ya, but what is there to do? You should know well enough that yelling at them does nothing.
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>>134130281
Never and no.
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He was too fucked up to deal with things like that. Kaworu was his escape and he ended up dying.
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>>134130658
When you grow up, you'll realize that there are obligations even during weekends. Not necessarily paid work.

What I said has something to do with the OP, because all that matters is that Rei is the best girl.

>>134131029
Forever and ever, Rei is the best girl.
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ITT: Butthurt Asukafags (redundant, I know)
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>>134131159
>when you grow up
>muh Rei
Cancer.
>>
>>134131004
You're right, but tolerating it doesn't help either, faggots like >>134131159 just run amok tsundere-fellating each other with other waifufags.

There must be something that can be done. Discussion becomes all but impossible once they show up in greater numbers.
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>>134130820
>>134131004
>>134130917
FYI You're both shitposters for getting butthurt at a statement. If you weren't butthurt, you'd turn it into discussion rather than meta.

But alas, shitposter you be.
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>>134131299
We can have all the discussion we want. So can you.

All that's required is a simple statement or topic, there's plenty of them ITT.

Whether or not Asuka is a good romantic partner is one topic.
Whether or not Rei is best girl is another.

You chose to shitpost instead of discussion. You are the cancer, anon.
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>>134131299
I doubt anything but constant mod intervention could help at this point. I can't even imagine anything else that'd help improve the state of things now.
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>>134131362
>fans the flames of shitposting while decrying shitposting
Reifags just need to make like Robin and suicide already.
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>>134131362
>>134131453
What the fuck would you even expect me to discuss with someone whose sole statement is "Rei is best girl"? The veracity of that statement?
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>>134131483
But that's what you were doing anon, getting the same type of response in return is entirely your fault.
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>>134131534
Determinism leaves you to blame. You could have elected not to be a faggot, but in the end you didn't.
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>>134131518
You could discuss with the OP again, better yet, not reply if you didn't think of anything.

But you could ask "why is Rei best girl" and then you could talk about how much of a best girl Rei is.
Instead you shitposted and got buttmad.
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>>134131563
>muh determinism
Opinion invalidated. It was nice trying to see you squirm though, shitposter asukafag-kun.
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Asuka's jelly doughnut
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>>134131621
>muh muhs
Opinion invalidated. It was nice to see you squirm though, shitposter Reifag-kun.
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>>134131670
>muh muhs
Thanks for the chuckle. Didn't see that one coming.

In all seriousness though, you going to determinism to whine really was the end of any rational debate.
Reminder that every time you reply denying your off-topic shitposting sins, you make things worse when you could just drop it and talk EVA instead. Like everyone else before did, until you fagged out.
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>>134131467
I think all the waifufags need to be ostracised, plain and simple. Otherwise there will never be peace.

>>134131580
I would maybe consider that a good idea, if I didn't know that waifufags consider repeating their point "an argument" and having a different opinion than they do "shitposting".
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>>134131797
>The debate ends because I said so
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>>134131806
Your prejudice there is the factor that disallows any good discussion though, because you are the one that ends it after all and makes it so that there can be none.

Reminder that every time you reply denying your off-topic shitposting sins, you make things worse when you could just drop it and talk EVA instead. Like everyone else before did, until you fagged out.
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>>134131806
That's an idea, but it seems like most people would rather delve into the arguments than leave them alone, not to mention waifufags can argue all day without getting tired. At best, maybe you can try and keep them in an isolation thread for waifuwars and general shitposting along those lines while people who actually want to discuss the show can do so in separate threads, but there's no way to enforce that.
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>>134131924
It ends because you ended it in this post: >>134131563
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>>134131999
So you admit then I'm right then, alright.
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>>134131985
>>134131806
Get real. You don't want to discuss the show. If you wanted to, there's literally nothing stopping you from making threads.

There's tons of topics to assess ITT but none of you try to make discussion. Also: if you don't concede a point in a discussion, you're not really discussing.
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>>134127708
the last thing I want is asuka being happy. I rather have shinji end up kaworu than fucking asuka.
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>>134131362
>expecting Asuka vs. Rei to turn into a worthwhile discussion after all those years
Really?
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>>134127708
>Shinji x Asuka
back to /reddit/ cancer
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>>134132113
Keep trying to butt into a conversation that doesn't involve you, but as you refuse to contribute to it at all - by not presenting or assessing ideas for the improvement of Eva threads - all you're doing is shitposting. If you'd like to contribute, do so instead of crying about how much you feel left out.
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>>134132224
But I DID present an idea: for you two to stop bitching and start posting EVA.
Seeing as you refuse, it's obvious you are the problem, shitposter.
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>>134132216
>implying anything in the op post is about rei
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>>134132113
With whom should I make discussion then?

>>134127727
I agree with this guy.

>>134128830
I wrote this.

>>134129044
This guy agrees with me on the important points.

>>134129324
I agree with this.

All the other posts are waifu wars and meta. Perhaps I would have less of a problem making discussion with them if they actually cared to elucidate their points instead of spewing forth slogans.
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>>134132265
We are posting Eva. So sorry you don't like the topic being discussed, but you're free to create your own topics or otherwise opt out.
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>>134132216
The OP doesn't mention Rei at all though. Also even Rei and Asuka make for great discussion, it's all about the type of poster involved.

I've seen many great discussions detailing the characters very well, juxtaposing them and comparing flaws and weaknesses. Understanding their development.

Many good points get brought up during the course of such a discussion.

Check out this guy: >>134132316
He knows where it's at. You? You're just a shitposter.
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>>134131806
>>134131467
there is no problem because rei is inherently best girl. why can't asukafags just accept it already?
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>>134132316
>With whom should I make discussion then?
Anyone you please, as long as it stays on topic. You already posted a lot so you're in the clear.

I for one agree that Asuka and Shinji aren't fit unless you assume a whole new story developing, and if one were to do make such spacious adaptations for everyone, soon you'd find that suddenly everyone is a good fit.

>>134132317
>metaposting
>eva
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>>134132398
Okay I'll bite. Explain to me why Rei is best girl, starting with a formal definition of "best girl", so that we can know what we're talking about.
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>>134132435
Literally posting about Eva. Whether you like to indulge in it or not is up to you.
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>>134127708
Did you have an aneurism while typing that out?
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>>134132473
asuka is an annoying, whiny, violent, psychopathic slut who constantly verbally and physically abuses shinji. rei is none of that.
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>>134132493
>meta-posting
>eva
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>>134132590
>muh abuse
>all lowercase
Back to Facebook.
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>>134132695
Literally posting about Eva. Whether you like to indulge in it or not is up to you.
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>>134132435
>and if one were to do make such spacious adaptations for everyone, soon you'd find that suddenly everyone is a good fit.
Well that is completely true.

>>134132590
That isn't really what I was asking you about, though at least it gives us some information on what a "best girl" isn't - so your idea of one is that she doesn't possess those negative qualities you mention.

Though I musty say that's a little disappointing, I would expect a fan to mount a stronger argument in defense of their favourite character.
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>>134132703
my post was readable with proper spelling, stop bitching about it. only reason why you bitched about it was because you have no arguments about why rei isn't best girl.
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>>134132590
>Rei is none of that

That's right, she is none of that. In fact, she's none of anything. She is nothing. She has the personality of a classic RPG character. It's left almost entirely blank so that you can project whatever bullshit you want onto it without breaking character.

So of course she would be best girl to you. You don't want any personality, you just want a manekin you can dress up to be your perfect girl.

How disgusting.
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>>134132789
You could always go back to Gaia if you want to type like an underaged shithead.
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>>134132473
Not him but isn't "best girl" sort of self-explanatory? It's an all-round statement, so I would assume it means the character or "girl" overall.

Combining all their traits, their abilities, their actions as well as their accolades and disposition, we'd get who is best girl or somesuch.

You could narrow it down and just focus on one thing, but then you'd have to be the one to specify which area to consider.

What >>134132590
says for instance is more or less true save for the "slut" part, which is only half-true really. But as we'd all agree, Asuka really acts out the bitch role and is as such, a really unpleasant person to be around, whereas Rei who is mostly quiet yet helpful comes off as a nicer person.

If Asuka had something else to offer, we'd perhaps have something more even, but she doesn't and even in the EVA-game makes things routinely worse for everyone else. Rei is rock-solid in that regard and you can always trust Rei to do her genuine best and make really tough calls. Again Rei obviously ain't perfect at the EVA-game, but still solid enough to be the shield NERV desperately needs.

>>134132767
>Well that is completely true.
Which is why shipping is more or less a dumb game that has become far too important in EVA, even for the people who ow the franchise.
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>>134128830
thanks for good read before this thread goes to asuka v. rei trash like all other eva threads
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>>134132372
If you think that's a shitpost why do you even reply.
You're complaining about meta-posting but that's exactly what you're doing yourself. Acting like an indignated faggot and crying "shitposter" won't make the tread better.
If you really think "best girl" discussions lead to anything seek help.
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>>134127708
>What say you
I hate mexicans so much.
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>>134132827
>That's right, she is none of that. In fact, she's none of anything. She is nothing. She has the personality of a classic RPG character. It's left almost entirely blank so that you can project whatever bullshit you want onto it without breaking character.
Not him, but that's where you started slandering and lying rather than assessing character. I hold that what you wrote is just as true for Asuka, if not even more true nowadays.

You don't need to project anything onto Rei to figure she's fairly good, but you do need to project to write what you just did. Because in the end the only one who's doing any projection on the character is Asuka fans (among female waifufans), and they know that and tries to throw their sins onto Rei fans.

Your argument defeats itself when you say "Rei is nothing", having episodes worth of character development and characterization does not end up in nothing.
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>>134132939
Because even shitposters need to be set straight. Here's my advice: just shut up.
We might get a discussion going if you do.

>>134132970
"What say you" isn't really mexican, is it? Not a murrican here, by the way. Just curious.
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>>134131626
woah wtf
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>>134133084
>Because even shitposters need to be set straight
You're really precious
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>>134132921
>Not him but isn't "best girl" sort of self-explanatory? It's an all-round statement, so I would assume it means the character or "girl" overall.

>Combining all their traits, their abilities, their actions as well as their accolades and disposition, we'd get who is best girl or somesuch.

That doesn't yield any result that isn't an opinion. Anyone could weigh various points differently. Not to mention that clearly not everything is taken into account. Asuka is an awful human being and that's held against her, but few people appreciate that she's a supremely crafted character that peerlessly gets the audience emotional(in one way or another)through her behaviour. Similarly, people who say Rei is best often only take into account what is superficial about her.

I'm generally opposed to judging the characters on the basis of what kind people they are in-universe. It flattens the discussion and mandates a self-insert point of view when talking about them.

Not to mention that I'd prefer to hang out with Stalin rather than anyone from the cast of Evangelion.
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>>134127708
I say a fujoshit is more right than you.

Also someone delete this thread already.
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>>134132970

CARAMBA
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>>134133414
>That doesn't yield any result that isn't an opinion. Anyone could weigh various points differently
Yeah but when we include them as an overall, we get a concrete result. We weigh the points realistically.

>Asuka is an awful human being and that's held against her, but few people appreciate that she's a supremely crafted character that peerlessly gets the audience emotional(in one way or another)through her behaviour.

No, that's included. Because after all, Rei is also a supremely crafted character that by the way, with more effect gets the audience emotional. This is why Rei is the center of pathos in so many places of NGE, and even in Rebuild which is definitely hostile to Rei's existence, uses Rei as it's tipping point for emotional heavy-hits.

If Rei appears as a better character and better human being (in terms of being good-aligned), then we have to give the point to Rei.

>Similarly, people who say Rei is best often only take into account what is superficial about her.
That is most certainly a lie and true for Asuka, not Rei.

>I'm generally opposed to judging the characters on the basis of what kind people they are in-universe.
I suspect that's because you know doing so is a lost cause for Asuka. If you rather admit, that in-universe, Rei is a better kind of person than Asuka, then we can leave that area of discussion dead and move on to another.

>Not to mention that I'd prefer to hang out with Stalin rather than anyone from the cast of Evangelion.
That's a mistake. Sure Stalin is a great historical figure whom you'd get many answers from, but Evangelion contains literal aliens and giving up your chance to hang out with someone extraterrestrial is definitely picking a lesser option.
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>>134128830
>>
>>134133758
The reason why Asuka fans like Asuka is deeply ironic. A real inhospitable person like Asuka is rejected and ostracized much like Asuka is in NGE. But precisely because Asuka isn't real, Asuka-otaku can rape the character however they want, because Asuka will never and - has never - been able to hurt them.

This is only a valid point to raise for Asuka fans because they hold the belief that they're somehow everyone's better for liking a 2D-representation of a mentally ill teenager that's "realistic".
Not being able to detect the inherent self-delusion is what makes it a particularly swollen boil of otaku escapism.
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>>134133970
Reifag navel gazing is always humorous to watch.
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>>134133970
>But precisely because Asuka isn't real, Asuka-otaku can rape the character however they want, because Asuka will never and - has never - been able to hurt them
That's the beauty of 2D.
>>
>>134133758
Pretty much this. There is not one single likable trait asuka has, I find it laughable anyone can like asuka over rei.,
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>>134134026
Not as much as Asukafag damage control.

>>134134045
Exactly.
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>>134134026
Rei's navel is a miracle of the universe.
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>>134133640
>Rei is the center of pathos in so many places of NGE, and even in Rebuild which is definitely hostile to Rei's existence, uses Rei as it's tipping point for emotional heavy-hits.
That's definitely true, but pathos is a different kind of emotional than interpersonal drama. And that ties into my general point, that Asuka and Rei cannot really be compared to each other, because their purpose in the story is completely different. Rei is there to be the Christ-figure(or new Eve if you prefer)and Asuka is the Lilith. One is a force for good made almost inhuman by her own benevolence, and the other is a selfish being that's at the same time a foil and a double for the protagonist. And while Rei is stronger as a standalone, Asuka's quality lies in her interactions with Shinji and her own brand of angst, which is a welcome break from his. Really all of the differences between the two could be summarised with the madonna-whore complex in some way, but a value judgment doesn't follow from that.

>>134133640
>I suspect that's because you know doing so is a lost cause for Asuka. If you rather admit, that in-universe, Rei is a better kind of person than Asuka, then we can leave that area of discussion dead and move on to another.
Nah. I genuinely don't care about a character's kindness towards the hypothetical me when assessing their merit as a fictional character.

>That is most certainly a lie and true for Asuka, not Rei.
Nah. Usually it's reasons like >>134132590 for reifags, with all due respect.
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>>134133640
This is utter nonsense. Everything you say here is an opinion.
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>>134132590
>asuka is an annoying, whiny, violent, psychopathic slut who constantly verbally and physically abuses shinji
Those are all true.
>rei is none of that
Rei did hit Shinji once but he was trash talking Genduu.
>>
>>134133471
What makes them right? Shinji and Asuka are very much into each other.
>>
>>134134255
>That's definitely true, but pathos is a different kind of emotional than interpersonal drama.
But inherently related to emotional response, and Rei is not without interpersonal drama either. The height of punches and emotional hits do stem from Rei.

>And that ties into my general point, that Asuka and Rei cannot really be compared to each other, because their purpose in the story is completely different
Different things can be compared. In fact the very purpose of the word comparing entails comparing different things. Otherwise we'd be comparing Rei with Rei or Asuka with Asuka.
The differences you list, regardless of whether not I agree with them or they're as quantifiable as you suggest, are things that can (and will be) compared.

In that overall comparison, Rei does win out.

>Nah. I genuinely don't care about a character's kindness towards the hypothetical me when assessing their merit as a fictional character.
You're very alone concerning that, if we replace "kindness" with extroverted behavior. Consider people claiming that they don't like Rei because she's quiet.

But then, at least agree that as a person, Rei is far better than Asuka. Lay the subject dead.

>Nah. Usually it's reasons like >>134132590 for reifags, with all due respect.
That is most certainly a lie.
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>>134134084
Nah, Reifags come up with the dumbest shit.
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>>134133758
>my post got capped
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>>134134341
>This is utter nonsense. Everything you say here is an opinion.
Opinion that can be substantiated and shown to reflect reality, in such an obvious way that delving into it is unnecessary. Like saying water is wet, for a simple analogy.
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>>134134474
>Shinji and Asuka are very much into each other
You're taking way too many shortcuts to reach this conclusion.
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>>134131626
WTF is she doing
>>
>>134133471
>>134134474
Asuka likes Shinji, Shinji jerks it to Asuka. For a relationship that's certainly a start. However, there's too many things inbetween them for it to work out, as it is with everyone.

The fujoshits might cry for Kaworu as "the one", but when they do they inherently admit that they don't care about either Shinji or NGE, just homosexual shipping. Because canonically, Kaworu betrayed the hell out of Shinji for literally no good reason at all. They would never, ever fit, and not only that Shinji's affections for Kaworu exists as a result of desperate needs being superficially fulfilled.

In all honesty, only Rei or Misato are good choices for Shinji romantically, but one is an adult and dead, and the other is an angel clone and by the end of the series not at all an available option.

>>134134357
You my friend, gets point for being right.
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>>134127708
That fujo understood Eva bettar than you, anon.
AYY LMAO.
>>
>>134134503
>The height of punches and emotional hits do stem from Rei.
The relationships are conducted differently. It's true that Rei has screentime more rarely and when she does, she tends to deliver hard. But the Shinji-Asuka contact is more frequent and nuanced, they get more time to interact with each other like normal people are supposed to.

I also have to disagree that all of the most emotional scenes are with Rei. Consider Asuka's episodes and most importantly EoE, where all that previously accumulated tension between her and Shinji is brought to a climax.
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>>134134548
Cut the psuedointellectual shit. Your analogy is shit because water is, by definition, wet. This is not true of anything you have said.
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>>134127708
>2015-11-29
Why the fuck are people still having problems seeing that both Asuka and Shinji, despite having problems coming to terms with and expressing it, actually do care a lot about one another.
Fucking hell, EoE has been released for years now, rewatch it if you're having a hard time understanding the dialogues and visual ques presented.
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>>134134821
It most definitely is, anon. Otherwise telling me why would be a piece of cake, no? But you can't, so all you do is act butthurt.
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>>134134739
Shinji also admires and respects Asuka as a person, as we see in "dance like you want to win". They even have friendly banter early on. It does turn sour, but it's not as awful as people say.
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>>134132590
Are we talking about Haruhi?
I hate that bitch.
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>>134134796
>bettar
>ayy lmao
>being a fujo
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Eva threads, where you spout as many pseudo-intellectual arguments using as many English 101 terms as possible to make it sound like your viewpoint is more grounded than another anon's.
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>>134133084
I could see why tho.
>what say you
literally translation from
>Qué dicen?

How we say in my country.
Si conocés a un mexicano, matalo.
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>>134127708
i'll post something similar to what i did in a thread last night
nobody won the shinjib owl. asuka came the closest, but she still didn't win.
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>>134127708
Shinji x Hand is cannon
deal with it
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>>134134809
Note that I didn't say NGE is devoid of such scenes including Asuka. But your original post and argument claimed that as if it was an Asuka-specific thing, which is definitely untrue and as we've established, instead peaks with Rei.

Getting back on point though, Rei really does appear as better than Asuka in the person arena, and that's a valid point to raise when we compare them. It's a fair point to raise because both are characters that were developed well and realistically, and neither are "Mary Sues" or clear "Anti Mari Sues". (the latter means that the character isn't deliberately made out to look bad)
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>>134135171
I didn't claim Rei didn't, just that Asuka did more. But that's hairsplitting.

>It's a fair point to raise because both are characters that were developed well and realistically
Well, maybe true. But at the same time, with all her human shortcomings, anxieties and moments of geniune likeability, Asuka is definitely more relatable than Rei, who is pretty much literally saintly in her conduct.
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>>134135171
Why would a well developed good person be better than a well developed bad person?
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>>134135445
I think you've made yet another mis-characterization of Rei, much like when you claimed Asuka had more emotional impact.

Rei is not saintly in her conduct, she does some bad things as well. Much like >>134134357
points out, slapping Gendo was absolutely uncalled for. It wasn't a good thing to do and Rei should be scolded for it.

There is a far more nuance than you acknowledge here. Rei initially isn't accepting of Shinji, but grows to be.

As for who is more relateable, I certainly don't relate to Asuka. If anyone does, they're either ignoring half the character or have serious mental problems.

>>134135493
Your question answers itself. Because you in your question are just considering who is the better person. That they're both well developed lends credit to one being good, and the other being bad, without either being strawmen(girls) or lies on pedestals.

In the overall question as mentioned earlier, Rei is a better person. Then it's understandable why people like good people in fiction. Rei has the qualities of both being a well-developed character, a good person, an interesting figure and an important one to the story.
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>>134135680
>Your question answers itself. Because you in your question are just considering who is the better person.
This does not follow. Taking morally acceptable actions does not inherently make a character more interesting or relatable.

Also, your assertion that only mentally ill people could relate to Asuka is ridiculous. If it were true, no one would relate to any of NGE's cast without having a mental illness.
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>>134136145
>This does not follow. Taking morally acceptable actions does not inherently make a character more interesting or relatable.
Now you're moving goalposts. Your question doesn't entail any of those considerations at all.

The original question doesn't consider it either.

>Also, your assertion that only mentally ill people could relate to Asuka is ridiculous
No, because I also include that they would have to ignore half the character if they do. You can partially relate to any of the characters.

Rei > Asuka
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>>134135680
I must disagree with you. It's certainly true that Rei has human interactions and some of them are troubled(though I don't consider slapping Shinji a bad thing, especially considered in comparison whit other shit that transpires between characters of Eva). But contrary to Shinji, Asuka, or pretty much anyone else, she always has the best intentions. You never see Rei doing something selfish(except arguably in EoE, where her reluctance to join with Lilith and the decision to put the future of mankind in Shinji's hands could be interpreted as such). She never toys with Shinji like Asuka, makes him her tool like Gendo, or uses him for company like Misato(I'm not saying that this is the totality of their attitudes for Shinji, but it's a recurring situation). Neither does she try to use anyone to ease her anxieties like Shinji does. She's the only character who interacts with others without any sort of ulterior motive, and in that way, she definitely is saintly.

A good example would be when she talks with Shinji before the Ramiel fight. She says that she pilots Eva for the sake of "everyone" and makes it clear that she doesn't mind dying in the process. What Shinji tells her(and what I think contributes to the development of her sense of self)after they defeat the angel is that she shouldn't treat herself with such abandon - in other words, that it's okay to be selfish.
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>>134136542
The question was "what makes a good character?", and for me, good behavior is not a part of that equation. Being interesting and relatable are. For me, the outward actions of a character are much less interesting than what motivated and informed them to take that action.

Also, of course no one can relate to a character in full. This applies to Rei more than almost anyone in NGE. However, relating to a character has much more to do with sharing emotions or motivations with that character than it does with exact experience.
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>>134136850
>I must disagree with you. It's certainly true that Rei has human interactions and some of them are troubled(though I don't consider slapping Shinji a bad thing, especially considered in comparison whit other shit that transpires between characters of Eva).
Then you can't really disagree. These are troubled, and just because they aren't the worst crime in EVA doesn't make it any less valid.

>You never see Rei doing something selfish
Considering slapping Shinji is selfish, we do. Not really an valid point to make.

>She never toys with Shinji like Asuka, makes him her tool like Gendo, or uses him for company like Misato
Nor is she required to. Rei does use other for company or wants to be accompanied, her flaw is not doing things for herself. She is selfless to a fault.

>She's the only character who interacts with others without any sort of ulterior motive, and in that way, she definitely is saintly.
When she talks to Shinji after the first encounter Ramiel, it could be argued she is subtly egging him on to fight. So while Rei does indeed see the greater picture, she isn't as innocent as you imply, even if it is relatively little.

She uses Gendo and later Shinji to ease her anxieties, holding on to Gendo's glasses as a memento.

There are a lot of people who need to be told that it's "OK" to be selfish. Consider Japan, a culture that prides selflessness - I'm sure many can releate to Rei's abandon for herself, and find hope in how she acknowledged herself at her deepest core.
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>>134136987
>The question was "what makes a good character?"
>ctrl+f "what makes a good character?"
>1 result found
>your post

In other words, you're moving goalposts. Not only that, the outward actions of a character as well as it's inner motions are what makes a character interesting or not. It can't be left out either way.

When it comes to determining which is best, Rei takes the point because she is both interesting and relateable, while also having a well-defined arc with a personal conclusion, something Asuka does not quite have even twenty years later. The story ends for Asuka, sure, but without a well-developed or thorough ending.

As a character, Rei may have less screentime but is all in all, the better character. Moreover I'd say thinks like "likeability" or "relateability" is largely irrelvant in the way you phrase it. It's your subjective opinion that is totally different from one anon.

What the character is at an objective level is what matters most.
>>
Shinji is what Anno uses to represent the otaku fanbase
The eva fanbase is a bunch of faggots
Ergo, shinji is a faggot
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>>134137281
Well it appears that this discussion is about why Rei is best girl, and for me, that is related to the quality of her character. If you use a different metric, that's fine, but it appears that you don't since you've been entertaining this discussion for so long and explicitly refer to my question.

And to be fair, you are absolutely correct in saying that Rei has a more conclusive and satisfying character arc (though I reject your assertion that Asuka doesn't have any conclusion to her arc). But that was never my problem. My problem was your assertion that making outwardly acceptable actions made for a better character. And yes, actions are still important, but only so far as they inform or are informed by a characters motivations and emotions, as they are meaningless without them.

Finally
>What the character is at an objective level is what matters most.
This means nothing. There is nothing "objective" about a character. You always like or dislike a character based on your own subjective ideas of what makes for a good character and what you like about a character. And sure, certain things are widely considered to be part of making a good character, but even these things are still subjective and oftentimes culturally informed.
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>>134138073
>Well it appears that this discussion is about why Rei is best girl, and for me, that is related to the quality of her character.
I'm solely talking about the question asked, and you're moving goalposts. Your tangent is irrelevant and you should instead concede your point as lost.

Then we can move on to discuss quality of character.
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>walls of text

Yeah this is definitely the shipper thread.
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>>134137142
>slapping Shinji is selfish
How is it selfish? What does Rei gain from it? Nothing at all. It can only be selfish if she were to benefit from the action, and there is no benefit, neither perceived nor actual, for her. Saying it's selfish would be valid if she tried to antagonize Shinji, or boast to Gendo about it, or maybe try to bring them closer to each other for some reason that benefits her directly, but it's clearly none of that.

>She is selfless to a fault
So in principle you do agree with me. And since selfishness is a basic human trait, that does make her less relatable to the average human.

> it could be argued she is subtly egging him on to fight
That's a big stretch, especially considering that she is very direct in her communications - slapping Shinji being the best example.

>holding on to Gendo's glasses as a memento
I don't think that would count as "using Gendo", really. She picked up the glasses he left behind, because they reminded her of the first moment someone showed her kindness.

>Consider Japan, a culture that prides selflessness
I think Shinji's brand of selflessness(that is in fact the desire for acceptance)is much more appropriate when discussing this, especially considering that he is closest Eva has to the "everyman" character. I'm not saying that it's not like you're saying it is - just that most people would rather relate to Shinji, not Rei in that case, and for good reason.
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>>134137281
>relatable
ahh, how so? You fucking autists think you can relate to a character who has lived through more trauma than a war refugee? Sadsacs, the lot of you.

>characters as objective
What's the matter with you?
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>>134138240
The question I asked was this >>134135493.
When I say "better" I'm referring to the quality of the character and everything past that has been discussion to that effect. I have not once moved the goalpost. Now respond to what I'm saying or fuck off, I'm sick of the posturing.
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>>134137281
>The story ends for Asuka, sure, but without a well-developed or thorough ending.
That's just wrong. Rewatch EoE.
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>>134138455
That's just wrong. Rewatch EoE.
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>>134138073
>character arc
>hits the reset button
>then at the very end leaves the decision making to Shinji
She has always seemed like an empty plot device to me.
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>>134138603
Really? How witty. Do tell me, what more is there to be resolved about Asuka once the credits roll? I'm genuinely curious.
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>>134127708
A fujoshi once told me: OP IS ALWAYS A FAGGOT, NO EXCEPTIONS!_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

___________baka____________
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>>134138311
>How is it selfish? What does Rei gain from it? Nothing at all.
You're being more dense emotionally than Rei is here anon. Rei gains the momentary satisfaction of slapping Shinji for having said something she didn't want to hear. She is selfishly hurting Shinji, as a reaction. She gets to protect her image of Gendo as a good father by antagonizing Shinji.

It's obvious.

>So in principle you do agree with me. And since selfishness is a basic human trait, that does make her less relatable to the average human.
I don't agree with you because Rei possesses both. Just like the average human does.

>That's a big stretch, especially considering that she is very direct in her communications - slapping Shinji being the best example.
Rei is both direct and indirect, slapping Shinji come because she didn't like what she said. Direct in the case you want to infer as being direct, would be telling him outright. Many things Rei says are subtle, or unsubtle all depending.

>I don't think that would count as "using Gendo", really. She picked up the glasses he left behind, because they reminded her of the first moment someone showed her kindness.
In other words, Rei holds Gendo in such high regard initially because that's the feeling of security she gets from him. It counts, and just like any real relationship, it's a two-way street. Rei abandons Gendo once it is clear he is no longer the person she hoped he would be.

>I'm not saying that it's not like you're saying it is - just that most people would rather relate to Shinji, not Rei in that case, and for good reason.
Some would, some would not. More mature and advanced people already lodged into the self-sacrificing system would relate to Rei, as they've no doubt given up a lot already.
Regardless, they do relate and so my point is complete.
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>>134127708
Ignoring all the best girl shitposts above (which have NOTHING to do with the actual question)

EoE has an open ending, so it's hard to say what's canon.
What's sure is that they care for each other.
What's not sure is that they end up together.

We can see the final caress and Shinji crying at the very end as the acceptance of each other's feelings, but really, it's just an interpretation, so pick up what you think it's true and move on.
>>134128830
I don't agree with a lot of things you wrote, but this line got my attention
>They can only hurt each other.
Assuming it's true, doesn't Shinji realize, when rejecting Instrumentality, that happines in life comes also with pain, the latter being an inevitable consequence of human relationships?
They may have hurt each other so far, but it doesn't mean they can't move on and achieve not only pain, but also joy
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>>134138376
>ahh, how so? You fucking autists think you can relate to a character who has lived through more trauma than a war refugee? Sadsacs, the lot of you.
I've made it my point earlier that if one were to relate to these characters, it would only be partially. If you do fully relate, you have my sympathies and wishes of well-being.

>What's the matter with you?
What's the matter with you? Don't like getting outside your safe space bubble or something? Afraid to have the sanctity of your opinion violated?
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>>134138398
You just moved it though. Your question doesn't not at all entail what you meant. You may want to write a new question or redefine your old one, but for now you should concede that you were wrong, and that considering as it was written and as it was written earlier, Rei is better than Asuka.

Concede that and we can move on.
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>>134138832
Basically everything. Because EoE doesn't resolve anything more for Asuka than it does for say, Misato. The development portion and characterization aspect of it is entirely gone.

The attempt at development they had was forced and basically ended up being an indirect admission that "yeah, this character isn't going any where. We can't develop it any more, it's reached a dead end. So we must use magic to fix or develop further".

But unlike Shinji, we do not actually see any development internally using said magic, and so Asuka is a plot device more than a character.
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>>134138761
Then you're either bullshitting or just bad at grasping characters. The development between Rei and Shinji has been present since episode one, and moreover the deteriorating relationship between Gendo and Rei has also been present since early on.
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>>134139127
>We can't develop it any more, it's reached a dead end. So we must use magic to fix or develop further".
>and so Asuka is a plot device more than a character.
Looks like it's high time for someone to post the Reifag parody cap. Just as foretold in the Deadsea Scrolls.
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>>134139199
Looks like it high time for a butthurt Asukafag to accept he's wrong.
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>>134139267
I'm not even the anon you've been replying to, just lurking for a bit.
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>>134139305
Sure thing butthurt Asukafag.
>>
>inb4 Asukafag posts his self-made mspaint image which he then screencapped himself which he doesn't realize makes him look incredibly autistic
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>>134138858
>Rei gains the momentary satisfaction of slapping Shinji for having said something she didn't want to hear. She is selfishly hurting Shinji, as a reaction. She gets to protect her image of Gendo as a good father by antagonizing Shinji.
It seems the one who doesn't understand Rei is you friend. Rei is not one who revels in punishing the evildoer. She genuinely thinks she is defending a just man and nothing indicates that she is taking pleasure in doing so. The only time she even comes close to doing this is during the elevator scene, and even then she only responds to Asuka after severe goading and, at least in my opinion, mostly to make her stop screaming. This is even supported by her own selfless nature and why she pilots Eva. She doesn't revel in protecting people, she does it because people need her protecting.
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>>134139325
>>134139366
You could stand to make your samefags more subtle.
>>
Reminder that 4.0 never
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>>134139018
And what exactly was my old question? For that matter, what is my new question? Where did I shift the goalposts? Tell me exactly where so I can genuinely respond to this.
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>>134139366
>makes him look incredibly autistic
He'd fit right into this thread.
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What's going on in this thread?
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>>134139393
>It seems the one who doesn't understand Rei is you friend. Rei is not one who revels in punishing the evildoer. She genuinely thinks she is defending a just man and nothing indicates that she is taking pleasure in doing so.
You don't understand Rei nor selfishness. A fact is that Rei slapping Shinji for having uttered his opinion, one he's entirely entitled to having and is in a better position (being Gendo's legitimate son) uttering, Rei slapping Shinji was uncalled for.

Rei here exaggerates her response because her feelings were contradicted. Selflessness in this case would be accepting that, but Rei acted selfishly and decided to strike Shinji instead.

The elevator scene is one I don't see at all on the other hand. That one is entirely on Asuka and no one else.

If there's one thing you need to understand about Rei, is that she's selfless in the true sense of the word, she can tolerate insult and damage towards herself but if it's about something conceptual, something external to herself - she reacts. When Rei strikes Shinji, it's for no one else but herself. It's to satisfy her, evne if just momentarily. Gendo can just as easily, or even better be defended through words. The slap convinces no one. It only satisfies Rei for a brief moment.

It's a childish and extremely basic and human reaction. It's a protective action, but selfish nevertheless.
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>>134139574
Shippers should just die.
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>>134139532
If you're this out of the conversation, and if my post wasn't clear enough, it's obvious you don't want to concede and just want to be the contrarian since accepting that Rei > Asuka hurts your fandom too much.

Until you concede, good bye.
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>>134139613
Don't worry too much about it.
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>>134138858
>Rei possesses both. Just like the average human does.
She does posses both, certainly, but the proportions are anything but an average human's.

>Direct in the case you want to infer as being direct, would be telling him outright.
Nah, slapping someone's shit in response is more direct than any kind of verbal reply.

>Rei holds Gendo in such high regard initially because that's the feeling of security she gets from him
She doesn't do it for a sense of security, if she valued any sort of security she wouldn't do half the stuff she did. If anything, she does it because she feels appreciated by him. But she just enjoys that fact. She doesn't actually do anything to garner Gendo's kindness.

>Rei abandons Gendo once it is clear he is no longer the person she hoped he would be.
Yes, and later she makes judgment upon him from the position of an impartial arbiter. The very fact that she assumes it should tell enough.

>>134138867
>doesn't Shinji realize, when rejecting Instrumentality, that happines in life comes also with pain, the latter being an inevitable consequence of human relationships?
Of course he does. But I don't think that would make pain any less painful for him. And there's also the possibility that when rejecting Instrumentality, he didn't quite expect that the person he'd end up with once out of tang would be Asuka.

>They may have hurt each other so far, but it doesn't mean they can't move on and achieve not only pain, but also joy
Certainly. But the final scene doesn't appear like they've made progress. Shinji expresses sadness(unless you're considering these to be tears of joy, but IMO they weren't that). Asuka expresses disgust. I think the point may be not that it's impossible for them to be happy with each other, but that they can achieve it only with their own actions and not through a third party like Rei's divine intervention.
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>>134139613
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>>134139663
They need to be purged.
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>>134139784
I'm just going to post screen captures and official art from the series, without any context or commentary

Read into it what you will :^)
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>>134139127
I don't get you at all. Asuka's own inner anxieties were resolved. Asuka's problems with Shinji got the best possible resolution(that is, a moment of complete honesty between each other). You seem to be expecting some sort of deus ex machina closure to the problems she and Shinji had since ever, and that's retarded because it would go completely against what Evangelion is about. If events were to transpire like that, Shinji's character arc would be over by ep3, Rei's by ep6, and Asuka's by ep11. What you're expecting is, essentially, that their problems should be magically cured the moment they get out of tang, when all they did in the tang was basically establish once for all, what their actual problem is.
>>
Who's your favourite Kaworu?
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>>134139737
>She does posses both, certainly, but the proportions are anything but an average human's.
Same goes for Asuka and most of the EVA-characters. An irrelevant observation as any.

>Nah, slapping someone's shit in response is more direct than any kind of verbal reply.
Not at all. It doesn't convey anything but dissatisfaction with what he said. It's indirectly speaking through actions. Nothing is more direct than honestly verbally stating why. A slap conveys her opinion indirectly.

>She doesn't do it for a sense of security, if she valued any sort of security she wouldn't do half the stuff she did.
Then why keep the glasses, why seek that sort of comfort? It's not about physical security, but emotional security. Rei is could but if NGE was any indication, she is very heavily moved by someone caring because her own assessment of herself is that she's replaceable in the physical sense.

>If anything, she does it because she feels appreciated by him. But she just enjoys that fact. She doesn't actually do anything to garner Gendo's kindness.
Besides being obedient and committed to the cause, and wanting to help Gendo, you mean.

Rei isn't one-dimensional or singleminded in that sense though. If things change, so will Rei.

>Yes, and later she makes judgment upon him from the position of an impartial arbiter. The very fact that she assumes it should tell enough.
She's not at all impartial here. She breaks his glasses, calls him out as the man who keeps her captive in episode 25, and earlier he says that she hasn't genuinely felt thankful to Gendo. Shinji is the first one she's seen genuine kindness. Before that, when Asuka calls Rei for "the favorite", Rei has to respond that it was not the case, and that "she knew that VERY well".

Rei wants something from Gendo, a security of protection, that she knows might not be as genuine as she hopes. Stockholm-syndrome deluxe maybe.

So when she slaps Shinji, it's to protect that, and through that please herself.
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>>134139961
I think the point being made any inner anxiety was not shown as resolved and that you're jumping to a conclusion that they were.
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>>134139981
forgot image
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>>134139640
Fuck off. I was the one who offered the last argument before you fell into the fallacy fallacy and decided you didn't have to respond to anything until I "conceded" a point that isn't even clear to me. You got defensive first and are being intentionally belligerent to prove a point about a very slight clarification and so that you don't actually have to talk to me.
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>>134139981
Karl
>>
>>134140101
It has been duly noted that you are just a butthurt Asukafag unwilling to concede a reasonable point others naturally do in this thread already.
>>
>>134139961
They weren't, and any anxieties that were resolved, were for Asuka resolved by a "Deus Ex Machinae" in the way you described it.

It's not that her issues should be magically cured, no, that IS the problem to begin with. Endgame Asuka is a poorly developed character that is moved forwards solely by power of plot, rather than the characterization and development the series is lauded for. Her development is so vague that any asukafan can project whatever they want onto it, be it failure or success. Ironically, it can be labeled as the ultimate device of otaku esapism because of Asuka's lack of concrete development near the end.


So when we get to EoE, what sort of development do we have?

>Asuka in a bed, motionless
Same as in NGE. No development here.
>Asuka getting used as a sex-object doll, parodying asuka otaku who jerk off to the motionless Asuka who can't hurt them
Still not character development, but a good scene and criticism nevertheless.
>Misato ordering Asuka carried into EVA02
Still not character development, but the character still "moves". It can't do this by itself.
>Asuka is unable to pilot the EVA, until the EVA activates itself for her
Not character development either. Yet again, a third-party acting on Asuka, rather than Asuka acting
>Her mother reveals herself to her, giving her what she always wanted out of nowhere, telling her sweet things and whatnot
Is the character developing here, or is it just being moved by forces it cannot control while remaining passive inside the "womb" ?
>She then fights and dies over the course of five or less minutes
That ends the character, for now - until we see it later until the end.

Are we now to assume there was any development here, and we should all agree there was nothing onscreen. Evangelion dropped the ball on Asuka. If she was used for anything, it was as a plot device to make Shinji react and move, and to create a fight scene. In the end, her character remains unresolved.
>>
I bet you autists also think that Asuka hates Shinji in RoE.
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>>134140555
I bet you're a butthurt shipper that holds on to the dear feeling that just maybe Asuka loves shinji xxx forever even after 14 years despite having no established connection beyond "yeah knew that guy for a few months", for the ULTIMATE LOYAL WAIFU PANDERING FANTASY.

My stance is that RoE Asuka is just a pandering character that is so shallow you can't for certain ascertain whether or not she likes or hates him, both interpretations are possible and that is done by design.
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>>134140555
>>134140700
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>>134140750
>filename
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>>134140700
>ULTIMATE LOYAL WAIFU PANDERING FANTASY
But it's not because nonshipper waifufags such as myself don't get much out of it.
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>>134140750
Asuka takes Misatos role in RoE after the timeskip. Misato wants him dead at this point, so someone has to support him somehow.
I'm sure Mari will be involved as well.
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>>134140887
You're not up in arms about it, and you eat it up, hence you are getting more than enough out of it. Then again you're obviously lying.
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>>134140006
>Besides being obedient and committed to the cause, and wanting to help Gendo, you mean.
If she did all of that for Gendo, what was her reason for doing it before he showed her kindness?

>>134140429

>Is the character developing here, or is it just being moved by forces it cannot control while remaining passive inside the "womb" ?
Okay. So you just don't get what Asuka's problem was. If you paid any attention to the scene, you would notice that Asuka's mother doesn't appear out of nowhere, but rather that she was always with Asuka This is important because for all of EVA Asuka tries to do things on her own and tends to fail miserably. The entire point of that scene is to show that Asuka learns she can(and must)rely on others and not behave like she's self-sufficient and all other people are just playthings.

And you can't say she's passive - she's doing all the killing.

>She then fights and dies over the course of five or less minutes
She loses because Shinji doesn't come to her aid - further reinforcing the point of her acknowledging that she needs other people.

Moreover, even though he isn't comatose, Shinji behaves much like she does in that part of the movie, being dragged around all the time by Misato. And even when he does man up, it's because of Yui's action and not his, that he's capable of doing anything. But I don't see you leveling the same complaint in his case.

>That ends the character, for now
Yeah, except for all that shit that happens during Instrumentality, where may I remind you she and Shinji have a deep and meaningful that does exactly what you're talking about - resolution. And you'd know that if you were paying any attention to the dialogue.
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>>134141246
>If you don't completely hate it, you must love it
You a Reifag or something? For the record, I'm not the anon you were replying to earlier.
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>>134141265
>If she did all of that for Gendo, what was her reason for doing it before he showed her kindness?
Lack of option, and lack of truly knowing anything else. She's a laboratory baby.

But your remark is missing the point: Gendo showing Rei kindness strengthened their bond, Rei is after this incident is now shifting to become more loyal to Gendo than NERV. There is a duality.
>>
Karou just keeps getting dumber with each adaption. At least Karl actually had some character though.
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>>134140700
I mean it's kind of plausible given that he's no ordinary boy. He did kind of accidentally kill the entire world, so that's not someone you forget.
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>>134141265
>If you paid any attention to the scene, you would notice that Asuka's mother doesn't appear out of nowhere, but rather that she was always with Asuka
She literally appears out of nowhere. Nor was she "always there with Asuka", she was inside the EVA, and this revelation in itself does come out of nowhere, since this never happens for Asuka despite her being in similar situations before. It's something that is written in to force some sort of movement.

Asuka doesn't learn to rely on others in that scene, nor anything of the sort. That is you inserting things into the empty hollow that is the scene.

>And you can't say she's passive - she's doing all the killing.
I distinctly remember the MP-EVA's doing the killing. Wait, let me check.
Yep. They're doing the killing.

>She loses because Shinji doesn't come to her aid - further reinforcing the point of her acknowledging that she needs other people.
Actually, it reinforces the point that Asuka can't develop without someone else forcing her. She couldn't get out of bed alone. She couldn't get to EVA02 alone. She couldn't pilot EVA02 without help. She couldn't defeat the enemy without help.

Basically, this is admitting that the character is a lost cause and can't do anything without being helped. That Asuka is at all there at the end is thanks to the rapture Rei and Shinji invokes, which claims all souls and gives them a new chance at life.

Asuka is for all intents and purposes, entirely passive, even in the finale, where rather than reacting like a normal human being when being choked, just lies there. You can interpret that any way you want sure, that she was being accepting and nice, but it's not a healthy reaction for someone supposedly who recently "resolved her issues".

>Yeah, except for [..] Instrumentality, [...] she and Shinji [..] resolution.
Only for Shinji. Asuka is largely left out, and has no real resolution whatsoever in the same level.
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>>134141725
IIRC, Asukas mother was essentially in a "coma" of sorts while in Unit 02, only coming out of it when Asuka finally realizes she's in the EVA.
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>>134141914
Asuka never realized she was in the EVA until she was literally shown that she was in the EVA.

Asuka was, for all intents and purposes, power-boosted into serving as a plot device, effectively abandoning any character development for the character. It was a passive thing, an object, to be moved around.
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Guys, Tiffany Grant wouldn't want us arguing like this.
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>>134141972
Literally everyone in EVA is a plot device if you really want to reduce things that much.

But Kaworu is still the biggest plot device of them all
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>>134142012
At least half the people arguing are dirty Reifags and Kaworufags, so I think she'd appreciate us fighting the good fight.
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>>134142034
But I'm not reducing anything here. It's literally what happened. I mean, if Asuka wasn't such an obvious puppet being kicked around, only barking on command, I would agree.
You can't give a character a "magical revelation" it never worked for, but was forced to having by the entire plot for proper character development.

Much less character development that's worthy of Evangelion.

>>134142012
>>134142059
>good fight
You're on the side of evil, just fighting for a fake idol rather than the truth of Evangelion.
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>>134142059
>She's her own waifu
I gotta give her credit for her dedication.
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>>134138945
What sanctity - maybe that's why you're insane? You presume to relate to a character you can never meaningfully relate to. Enjoy your vapid mindgames of unending edge, bruh.

HANL
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>>134142012
>>134142059
i had heard on here that tiffany grant was insane but i didn't know it was like this
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>>134142147
Anon, you're putting too much thought in a series that doesn't deserve it.
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>>134142213
What the actual fuck are you going on about.
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>>134142160
>>134142012
Do you think she wears the plugsuit when she's sodomizing Matt Greenfield?
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>>134131626
Time to have some rice balls
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>>134141725
>this revelation in itself does come out of nowhere
That's completely ignoring the fact that we're explicitly told that Eva-01 has Yui's soul on the inside and that it's the source of much of its abilities. By analogy Eva-02's abilities must come from somewhere. You're ignoring a basic element of the lore here.

>distinctly remember the MP-EVA's doing the killing.
She kills them and then they kill her. Whatever. Point is, she fights a fight and she loses because it's what, nine against one? And the nine turn out to be immortal after their first death.

Which makes your point
>She couldn't defeat the enemy without help.
retarded, because in her position no one could.

>can't do anything without being helped.
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT YOU RETARD. Asuka was trying to develop on her own without relying on others throughout the whole series. NO ONE in Evangelion develops without help from others. Not Rei, Not Shinji, Not Misato and not Asuka. And Asuka is supposed to showcase that fact, every time she fucks something up the show bangs you over the head how it's because she wouldn't accept others' help.

>rather than reacting like a normal human being when being choked, just lies there
You're missing the part where she strokes Shinji's cheek and he stops doing that. There, lesson learned.

>Only for Shinji. Asuka is largely left out
LOL like at least one third of Instrumentality examines her motivations and outlook.
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>>134142264
It's a good series and deserves it.
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>>134142256
>i had heard on here that tiffany grant was insane but i didn't know it was like this

Don't tell me you haven't seen the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzvIn0mdXtY
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>>134142256
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzvIn0mdXtY
She's so insane that she's sane.
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>>134142313
Its a good series, but expecting it to not have random plot development for the sake of plot is idiotic.
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>>134142304
>That's completely ignoring the fact that we're explicitly told that Eva-01 has Yui's
It is, for a good reason: EVA02 is obviously not EVA01. Not in configuration, origin or how a person was introduced into it's core to begin with.
My argument also reveals this event in EoE to be a flaw in the story that makes it less believable in exchange for what is a rather forced plot development for Asuka.

>She kills them
>they kill her.
Pick one and only one.

>Which makes your point
>retarded, because in her position no one could.
What makes you think that? I'm sure Shinji could have. Either way this is conjecture and I think it's more likely that Shinji could have defeated the MP-EVA's with his EVA.

It's not a moot point because it only adds to the whole, you'd be ignoring everything else Asuka couldn't do alone. Asuka can't do shit on her own, and that's a fact.

>Asuka was trying to develop on her own without relying on others throughout the whole series. NO ONE in Evangelion develops without help from others. Not Rei, Not Shinji, Not Misato and not Asuka.
The others could develop alone. Shinji did, Rei did, and Misato also did.

The difference is that they tried. They had varying success, but Asuka never actually tried. She just deluded herself more and more, until it didn't work any more, and then she broke. It's not about accepting others help, it's about Asuka's own toxic personality hindering her in making progress. You CAN develop yourself without help. It might be hard, but it's possible, and Shinji showed that, Rei showed that, as well as Misato.

>You're missing the part where she strokes Shinji's cheek and he stops doing that. There, lesson learned.
You're jumping to a conclusion. Like I said, that's more indicative of serious mental problems, it's the wrong reaction to being choked.

>LOL like at least one third of Instrumentality examines her motivations and outlook.
Not in EoE, and either way, instrumentality is someone helping her as well.
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>>134139176
I was too harsh, what I meant by the post is that Rei's character development never got the clean ending it deserved, and she was turned into a plot device for the final plot ( which was essentially between Shinji and his mother ).

Just my opinion...
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>>134142383
Perhaps, but expecting a "random plot development" to have the same value as a well structured and developed one is what's actually idiotic. I'm only asserting as a fact that it was forced, that it was rather arbitrary, and the conclusion based on that is that the "development" is shallow.
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>>134142572
What are you talking about? Rei giving the middle finger to Gendo and retaking her original form is a very, very clean ending.

Unless you mean "happy ending", then it's all a matter of perspective. A happy ending with Rei happy at the end doesn't make sense for EoE at all. But Rei growing into a giant that influences all mankind and all that jazz? That's a good clean ending that makes sense and has meaning.
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>>134142272
I'm saying your opinion is invalid because its basis doesn't hold up. You have no idea how to relate to Rei, and pretending otherwise just sounds deluded, and really proves how little you appreciate her as a character.
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>>134142304
>>134142540
(cont)

The point is that Asuka could not develop further. She was over, lying motionless in the bed unable to react to Shinji masturbating to her, she was nothing more than a masturbatory fantasy for the otaku self-insert and EoE demonstrates that clearly.

To make Asuka anything else, all the other characters has to chip in and carry her there. Without a real active part from Asuka, it was merely just a plot device.
>>
Its been awhile since I've been in an Eva thread. Have they always been this pretentious.
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>>134142651
ehh, I love her running up with an N2, and I love her questioning her relationship between gendou but I can't see her accepting adam and submitting to Shinji as meaningful character development...
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>>134142688
Who says I relate to Rei, and if I do, how the hell do you know what part I relate to Rei with?
For the record, no, I do not fully relate to Rei at all. Nor do I at all relate to Asuka or other characters.

I say that if you DO fully relate to a character that has mental issues, then you have my sympathies.
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>>134133305
>>134134692
>wtf

Is this some kind of meme?
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>>134142733
I live that 'toxic' aspect of personality and the idea of development, but Misato, Shinji and Rei all get knocked back to square one in the later half of the series as if there was no development at all, which I think is mirrored in Anno's use of cycles and repetition in Rebuild. He's obsessed with the self-destructive nature of humanity, and I think he believes in the need for a community just like Miyazaki. They both don't believe there is room for positive growth in Japan due to the alienated prototype for personalities in post-war japan ( which is probably just normal human fuckedup ness along with the dissociating nature of a post-modern view of ideology and narrative ).
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>>134142806
Dude you're responding to my response. I literally don't care unless you are the original poster who explictly said he related to Rei the most. GJ falseflagging shitlord.
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>>134142801
Well, why not? Rei isn't just that introverted girl with relationships. It's made clear in NGE that she's far more, there's an occult side to Rei which she questions alongside her relationship with Gendo, Shinji and the others.

Her body is an artificially made clone and her placement in it isn't exactly the product of a consensual and loving intercourse between a man and a woman. Her Lilith origins might scare her, but they are her origins and not accepting it means rejecting herself at her deepest core.

Here's why Rei returning to Lilith has meaning, as represented through visuals: Rei doesn't change her shape to something unrecognizable, and doesn't stop being "Rei" when she does. Instead, she takes with her all that she's learned, how she sees herself, and still sticks to it after returning to Lilith.
>>
how do i make my grandma watch evangelion?
she doesnt want to because cartoons are kiddy shit
>>
I just skimmed the discussion and saw people discussing eoe and asuka.
I always found EoE kind of shitty treatment for Asuka. Her fight scene was cool, but then I think about the film opening with Shinji fapping to her comatose body. And then her getting violently torn to shreds.
I know Anno is supposed to like her, but it didn't feel like it at all.
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>>134142763
yep
many thesauruses are opened the second an eva thread begins
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>>134143164
This, instead asuka should be a mary sue who kills all the angels and whenever she's not on screen all characters should go "where's asuka?"
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>>134142970
>but Misato, Shinji and Rei all get knocked back to square one in the later half of the series as if there was no development at al
Clearly not true. They get knocked back, but this in itself is also development. It's a regression, but haven't you ever heard about negative developments, or things taking a turn for the worse? That's it.
What they do right but Asuka doesn't, is that they still remain active in their further development. They still act and think, and don't come to a standstill.

Anno might, just might not be as insightful as you think he is, but rather a talented otaku who has no qualms sacrificing integrity and solid character development for "quick selfish fixes", much like Shinji jerks off to Asuka to make himself feel better even if just for a moment.

Then he feels like shit.

>>134143107
Your grandma is a cool person.
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>>134143164
>>134143226
But that's the very proof he does love Asuka and is a huge biased Asukafaggot.

Think of where Asuka starts before EoE:

-dead corpse-like shell of a human being unable to do anything whatsover

But then in the course of the movie, she gets "powerboosted" through pure power of plot hax into having a decent fight before she dies? Then she's alive at the end?
If anything, Anno gave Asuka far, far more than she was ever entitled to or could logically be developed into being. That's why there was no development, only the plot conveniently carrying her from A to B.

Although, perhaps Tsurumaki is to blame for that, since the scene was apparently something he wanted in and directed.

>This, instead asuka should be a mary sue who kills all the angels and whenever she's not on screen all characters should go "where's asuka?"
You mean, like in Rebuild?
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>>134143351
>missing the point of asuka that hard
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>>134143416
>pretending there is a point missed so you can make a retort
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>>134143449
The point is that Asuka and Rei are shit
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>>134143513
Whatever man.
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>>134142540
If Eva-01 has powers and Eva-02 has the same powers, and Eva-01's powers are explained by the Yui inside, then Eva-02's powers too must be explained somehow. It's really simple and not forced at all. If this explanation weren't introduced, you'd be arguing that there was a plot hole right now.

>it's more likely that Shinji could have defeated the MP-EVA's with his EVA
Maybe thanks to the S2 organ, but that's a power that's there because plot and has nothing to do with Shinji's capabilities as a pilot.

>The others could develop alone. Shinji did, Rei did, and Misato also did.
No they couldn't. Rei needed Gendo and Shinji to develop a sense of self. Misato needed Kaji and Shinji to come to terms with her issues. Shinji was dragged around by others, given remarks and scolded on what to do for literally the entire series.

>Asuka never actually tried
Except when she did, like in that episode with the spider Angel. You're cherrypicking, both here and in regards to other characters' development.

>it's the wrong reaction to being choked.
Choking the first human being you meet after the world ends is not the "right"reaction either desu. You're going to fail hard if you're trying to take that scene in such context. And also why would it be the wrong reaction? He stopped choking her in response, so as far as I'm concerned it was the best possible reaction.

>instrumentality is someone helping her as well
It's the same for everyone else because not being able to make progress entirely on your own is the point since day one, literally since the moment Shinji decides to get in the robot in episode 1.

Also notice the parallelism between Shinji's first fight and Asuka's last fight. Telling.
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>>134143064
I don't see it that way but i understand where you're coming from. With the ways things progress for Rei III i see the intimations of humanity scrapped from her personality, and the subjugation of the Rei character by the Lilith prototype, which is why she was happy to leave the decision entirely in humanity's hands and act entirely as tool. That being said I don't have any clear thoughts on her picking Shinji besides rejecting Gendou, but does that choice have any meaning?

The only change to outcome is that she won't act as Gendou's exclusive tool, and whether that is personal trauma, Lilith's intuitive rejection, or her personal desire to be with Shinji is hard for me to begin weighing. ( i'm sure there are even more reasonable options as well, which is part of why I don't think she had a clear or interesting character arc finale ).

>>134143228
>have you ever heard of 'x'
Useless; you're begging the question of what is meaningful development. I didn't say there were clearly crystalized character development finales, its you who made that claim.

>asuka doesn't
In EoE she does as she doesn't sit down, accepts her past with her mother, and decides on action. I'd argue that she does in the show too, its just that her self-destructive nature dominates as she never had well defined self-worth.

Does Misato move beyond Kaji? It sort of felt that way, but most of all it just seemed like Misato never changed from the person she was, the one who decided to get into Nerv in the first place. I like her character, I think she is incredibly well developed ( best exposition ) and that she doesn't change over the course of the series.
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>>134143196
so many azn fukboi tears in /a/ these days

why don't yall go to the comf threads already, kk?
>>
i fucking love eva threads
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>>134143228
>quick selfish fixes
You impulsively watch anime and post on /a/ instead of choosing to do meaningful progressive things in your life. The reason evangelion's character stand up to scrunity and always will is because they are deeply human and incredibly flawed, I'm not sure if you can comprehend that yet.
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>>134143657
>If Eva-01 has powers and Eva-02 has the same powers
They don't have the same powers, and are fundamentally different.

It's forced. Even if they were identical in setup, then you'd still run into the problem that EVA02 never did this before. Why now out of all times, when there's been just as much of a need before?
There isn't a single thing about EVA02's behavior that testifies it's capable of this, rather it's lack of personality shows that it's rather incapable of it.

>Maybe thanks to the S2 organ, but that's a power that's there because plot and has nothing to do with Shinji's capabilities as a pilot.
Much like Asuka's at all being able to pilot at this junction. Regardless, you were wrong and there are definitely others capable of doing so.

>No they couldn't. Rei needed Gendo and Shinji to develop a sense of self.
Rei already had a sense of self, and her development takes place independently. There is no third party who dictates how Rei should develop. Rei absorbs and changes, and Misato is the same.
There is no "giant powerup" for Rei or Misato as there is for Asuka. They always thought things out, accepted things and changed accordingly. In real life, outside instrumentality.

But Asuka, she was literally comatose and dragged around. She was literally unable to respond or do anything, until she was entirely independently from her own will, moved by the plot.

>Except when she did, like in that episode with the spider Angel.
Remind me, what did she do there? Because all she did in that episode was bitch about not being leader and make things worse.

>Choking the first human being you meet after the world ends is not the "right"reaction
Didn't say it was either.

>It's the same for everyone else because not being able to make progress entirely on your own
It's not the same because Asuka wasn't able to make progress period. She had more support organs than Rei, for instance. She didn't make it.
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>>134143657
>>134143888
>Also notice the parallelism between Shinji's first fight and Asuka's last fight. Telling.
There is no paralellism.

In episode 1, Shinji blacks out and is literally not present mentally or physically for the fight. He does not even remember what happened. It cuts to a hospital scene, and only at the end of episode 2 do we get to find out how the Angel was defeated.

In EoE, Asuka is present mentally for the entire fight, and is the entity being powerboosted, with Shinji it's just EVA01 doing it's thing.

Damn, the original is so much better than Rebuild.
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>>134143351
I guess that's one way to look at it. Like a shounen hero yelling so much that they get a powerup.
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>>134143673
>With the ways things progress for Rei III i see the intimations of humanity scrapped from her personality, and the subjugation of the Rei character by the Lilith prototype, which is why she was happy to leave the decision entirely in humanity's hands and act entirely as tool. That being said I don't have any clear thoughts on her picking Shinji besides rejecting Gendou, but does that choice have any meaning?

That Rei clearly states that "I'm not a puppet for you to control", should have enough obvious meaning for you not to ask.
I think you're being intentionally dense now.

>The only change to outcome is that she won't act as Gendou's exclusive tool, and whether that is personal trauma, Lilith's intuitive rejection, or her personal desire to be with Shinji is hard for me to begin weighing
Considering Rei comes before Lilith, where it comes from is obvious. Also refer to episodes 23, 24 and 25 for more background. Rei's relationship with Gendo has reached it's end point by that time.
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>>134143351
eh, what? She wakes up from her trauma/depression coma due to a familiar feeling of LCL and the spirit of her mother, and then finally feeling safe and secure unleashes her rage - where's the development? She self-destructs into nothing, yet again, having achieved nothing. I think you've been brainwashed by shounens into believing that being sugoi killer is something redeemable, interesting, or worth mentioning - its not.
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>>134143673
>Useless; you're begging the question of what is meaningful development
No, only what development is. It can go both ways.

>In EoE she does as she doesn't sit down, accepts her past with her mother, and decides on action.
Not true. In NGE, and EoE, Asuka's own actions was to sit down and attempt to kill herself. She does not decide anything on her own.

She does not accept her past with her mother, nor decide on action, all of those choices are essentially made for her, and provided to her. These were not options that Asuka could make or develop into, they had to be forced.

>>134143787
I've already done plenty of progressive things and I continue to do so. That said, I get it but you don't want to accept what those flaws entail. You only want the romance of being flawed rather than the harshness of it.
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>>134143756
It's like watching a cockfight, but legal.
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>>134144157
>eh, what? She wakes up from her trauma/depression coma due to a familiar feeling of LCL and the spirit of her mother, and then finally feeling safe and secure unleashes her rage
Not in EoE.

In EoE, she doesn't get over any trauma or depression. She is given a momentary carrot to follow, and she follows it obediently into her death.

She doesn't feel something familiar, and then wakes up, it's the spirit of her mother coming directly to her and reassures her, activating her EVA for her.

It's like you give a spoiled child who has been denied access to a treat, the very treat it seeks. Before it was sullen and down because it couldn't get what it wanted, and when you give it to the child, it boasts and cries out in victory.

But the child never changed. It is still a selfish little thing, just like Asuka is a broken doll in a giant womb.

You can't fix someone's problems by just giving them what they want for free. That's why Asuka dies, and that's why her problems are not fixed even by the end of evangelion.

The message can't be "let's give our spoiled children all the sweets they want and never teach them how to get their own".
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>>134144079
>obvious meaning
The inherent meaning to that sentence is that she is acting irrationally and is being a contrarian for, well, the sake of an ego. Whether that's Lilith or Rei influence is entirely in the eyes of the beholder, and regardless, doesn't really add to her character as in the past she has

>>134144201
>meaningful development
I'm sorry you don't seem to comprehend what's being said. Feel free to reread it until you do.

>asuka got put in the robot
All i see is your hand, as Asuka's, reaaaaaccccchiiing
I've also addressed what I believe is the culmination of her character arc in the show, and continue to confuse the argument by conflating the two, you'll have do it alone.
>>134144201
>romance flawed harshness
I've never mentioned any romance in any of my posts in this thread, sorry you're confused I would post with my evathread trip but then people don't respond haha.
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>>134144365
>I'm sorry you don't seem to comprehend what's being said. Feel free to reread it until you do.
I understood it but as was said, it's not relevant. Feel free to reread it until you concede.

>All i see is your hand, as Asuka's, reaaaaaccccchiiing
>I've also addressed what I believe is the culmination of her character arc in the show, and continue to confuse the argument by conflating the two, you'll have do it alone.
I fail to see the point you're making here.
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>>134144365
>The inherent meaning to that sentence is that she is acting irrationally and is being a contrarian for, well, the sake of an ego.
What exactly is irrational about it? It sounds distinctly like a rational thing to say. It is contrary (to what Gendo wants) for sure, but that doesn't change the fact that the meaning is quite obvious.

>Whether that's Lilith or Rei influence is entirely in the eyes of the beholder
It most definitely isn't.

This is because Rei is prior to making the decision, physically separate from Lilith. Hence the decision being made before joining means that it has all of Rei's weight behind it.
Moreover, when Rei as Lilith then assumes Rei's form, not Lilith, it's clear who she sees herself as. This is the image of herself that she formed in her heard that became reality, a giant bewinged Angel.
>>
>>134144365
>>134144429
Forgot to mention this:
>I've never mentioned any romance in any of my posts in this thread, sorry you're confused I would post with my evathread trip but then people don't respond haha.

You're confused, my man.

It doesn't mean "romance" as in love and couples when I said "the romance of being flawed", it meant that you (and fans at large) are fetishizing and glorifying flaws that would normally be looked down upon or not approved of.

An Asuka fan might say "I like Asuka because she's flawed!", but the same fan would instantly and quickly deny said flaws actually existing, or that they are at all a bad thing. It's normal to treat 2D waifus this way.
>>
>tfw Bluray extras never
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>>134144356
>wakes up from === getting over
Yes, because we all know rage is certainly rational and founded on emotional stability rather than a bandaid with which to ignore your feelings. You guys project so hard I don't know where to begin.
>her mother comes directly and reassures her
Compare the scenes in EoE to shinji caught in the angel and you'll see you're reading way too far into it - just like asuka did. She was the one who decided to make attribute her mother onto the eva.
>selfish little broken doll in a giant womb
This is pretty good.
>you can't fix someone's problems by giving them what they want for free
Hadn't ever interpreted it like that but its not bad. I prefer to think of it was the natural progression of a self-destructive nature.
>problems fixed
You mention this like its 1) meaningful 2) a point of contrast between her and other characters
Its always been the route of my argument to point out that none of the characters changed very much ( comparing end point to beginning point ).

>>134144429
>development goes both ways
You never made the argument that the downturn/painful development led to character progression, you simply left it assumed without specific examples. That's why i said you were begging the question - you didn't provide an argument.

>>134144530
>its a rational thing to say, its obvious
What am i supposed to say to this? Do you understand what an argument is, you've put up the strawman that, "Rei of course would do this as it is a natural progression/finalization of her character development,".

You haven't added anything at all, yu've just repeated yourself.
>rei maintains her clone body's shape
That's an argument! Thank you that is interesting.
She still choose to become a tool, and left it the decision in someone else's hands.

>>134144650
>flaws that would be normally looked down upon or not approved of
What am I suppose to say to this stupid ad hominem? I'll repeat what I've said before in another post.
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>>134143888
>are fundamentally different
Really? Where do you take that from?

>There is no third party who dictates how Rei should develop.
Certainly, but She doesn't create her own development - it's started by interactions with Shinji and Gendo like those in the Ramiel episodes.

>Remind me, what did she do there? Because all she did in that episode was bitch about not being leader and make things worse.
Confirmed for cherrypicking. Asuka does indeed bitch for most of the episode. Then when the confrontation with the angel happens, she admits her mistakes and formulates a plan of action that involves her being the squad's meatshield. She takes one for the team, Shinji and Rei carry out their tasks and the angel is killed.

>It's not the same because Asuka wasn't able to make progress period. She had more support organs than Rei, for instance.
Asuka's arc starts with Asuka being a bitch, then there's progress(the episodes between her arrival and the fight with Zeruel, roughly speaking)where she learns to cooperate with others and then after she stasrts losing she regresses. Saying Asuka doesn't make progress is defensible in terms of a certain timeframe, but stating that she doesn't develop is nonsense.

>>134144003
Maybe I was too hasty in saying they're parallels to each other, but there's definitely some similarities that shouldn't be ignored. Both start with the Eva being unable to move and pounded by the enemy, both are won thanks to the mother-spirit-inside-Eva's intervention. That's important.

>Damn, the original is so much better than Rebuild.
I'm happy that we are at least able to agree on that much.
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>>134127708
Shinji is a gay. end of story.
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>>134144757
>What am I suppose to say to this stupid ad hominem? I'll repeat what I've said before in another post.
That isn't ad hominem.
>>
butthurt reifags
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>>134144867
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>>134144757
>>134144650
The characters are interesting and remain interesting is that they are deeply flawed, fall into habits and manifest their ego in self-destructive ways.

I read in your opinion that you'd prefer if the only character portrayed were characters striving for the ubermensch/existential ideal, and succeed with minimal difficulties. I mean sure if that's what you want, that's what you want, what am I supposed to say to that beyond:
post-modern society isn't for you and you shouldn't watch anime as the only characters approximating that are stupid/vacuous/impossible.
>>
>>134144757
>Yes, because we all know rage is certainly rational and founded on emotional stability rather than a bandaid with which to ignore your feelings. You guys project so hard I don't know where to begin.
What's your point?

>Compare the scenes in EoE to shinji caught in the angel and you'll see you're reading way too far into it - just like asuka did. She was the one who decided to make attribute her mother onto the eva.
No, the mother reaches out to Asuka.

In contrast to the Leliel and EoE situation, Shinji is again blacked out here and doesn't have any say. The same as with Zeruel later on.

>This is pretty good.
What makes it good is that it's true.

>Hadn't ever interpreted it like that but its not bad. I prefer to think of it was the natural progression of a self-destructive nature.
It's the only real interpretation really. How else could you accept the giant contradiction that asuka improves by retreating to the womb of her mother with EoE's rejection of the primordial mother's womb?

>Its always been the route of my argument to point out that none of the characters changed very much ( comparing end point to beginning point ).
Well then you've failed that. My point is that Asuka does not change on her own and has no real character development by the end, because there's nothing concrete about it whatsoever.
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>>134144757
>What am i supposed to say to this?
Anything that makes sense. You're supposed to ratify that it is irrational. Because this:

>"Rei of course would do this as it is a natural progression/finalization of her character development,".
is the actual truth here.

>That's an argument! Thank you that is interesting.
I mentioned that earlier. It is also too obvious to miss.

>She still choose to become a tool, and left it the decision in someone else's hands.
Only if you abstract the definition of a tool to the point where any interaction is becoming someone elses tool. Rei primarily,a s her motivation states she does this because she's not Gendo's puppet. The scene later shows it as a "homecoming", with black-on-white text in a second-login intermission says "welcome home", responding to Rei's "I'm home" statement.

So no, Rei choose to return to her former self, and as any other person would, let mankind's destiny be mankind's destiny, and as per Rei's earlier development - that she wanted to help everyone - make sense.
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>>134144781
>Really? Where do you take that from?
NGE.

EVA01 is made from Lilith, EVA02 is made from Adam. They are two different models, production and test type. They have different features.
Moreover, Asuka's mother was introduced into EVA differently than Shinji's, Yui was swallowed whole while Asuka's mother only had part of her copied into EVA02, leaving the real Kyoko dead.

>Confirmed for cherrypicking. Asuka does indeed bitch for most of the episode. Then when the confrontation with the angel happens, she admits her mistakes
Confirmed for having misremembered. Not even once does Asuka do anything like "admit her mistakes". Not even once. Give me a line of dialogue. Give me a scene. You can't because there is no such thing.

>Asuka's arc starts with Asuka being a bitch
and ends.

>then there's progress(the episodes between her arrival and the fight with Zeruel, roughly speaking)where she learns to cooperate with others
Did she really learn to cooperate? She always was a thorn in the side, even during that time. She regresses for sure, but she was always regressing. Never progressing.

She does develop (as a character), but not in the positive sort of way that has any form of permanence to it.

>Maybe I was too hasty in saying they're parallels to each other, but there's definitely some similarities that shouldn't be ignored. Both start with the Eva being unable to move and pounded by the enemy, both are won thanks to the mother-spirit-inside-Eva's intervention. That's important.

Not in a way that supports your side of the argument. It supports mine because this is something EVA01 is innately able to do, while it for EVA02 for the entire NGE series remains a non-factor. It never happens in NGE. Not until EoE, and even when it happens, it's completely different.

Then it also supports my point because my point is that Asuka did not develop herself, but her mother helped her as a third party.
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>>134144799
>calls me a waifu fag apologizing for perceived human flaws in a character because I can't 'deal with them'
yeah that's ad hominem nigga you haven't addressed why you believe flaws to be bad, or why they shouldn't be portrayed, or why I shouldn't make 'x' argument

ad hominem nigga

>>134144955
>rage
What's your point?
>mother reaches out
Where's the proof? Shinji is awake during this sequence; you're a delusional apologist.
>its true and that's good
You're a miserable cunt.
>its the only interpretation
I made it; you didn't.
>improves by retreating
1) never happened the eva is the eva and exists beyond your speculation of what it symbolizes
2) you're begging the question of what my opinion is; I never stated that opinion
>route of my argument
I've made the case for Misato and Rei remaining in stasis. Claiming i've failed is just being a rude cunt.

>>134145075
>the truth
You're projecting that there is only one truth for a piece of fiction with many disparate unexplained plot points. Who sounds irrational here?

>I mentioned that earlier; its too obvious to miss
That's inherently contradictory.
>abstract the definition of a tool
>returns to her former self, any human would
So you believe that every human is inherently repetitive and imbues an active force against growth - I do too.
>let mankinds destiny be mankinds
I agree, and I was the one who original made this argument.
>as per Rei's earlier development
Rei sacrifices herself again and again for humanity and then chooses to leave it up to self-destructive and scared Shinij to 'help everyone'

There's something contradictory in that statement.
>homecoming
Yes, as in she accepts the angelic nature of Lillith, which she is derivative of and is not in whole, but in part, as the identity she identifies with. which was my original point, which is why i say that Rei I,II, and Rei III/GNR are totally different characters in my mind one striving for humanity and the other distancing herself from it.
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>>134144946
>I read in your opinion that you'd prefer if the only character portrayed were characters striving for the ubermensch/existential ideal, and succeed with minimal difficulties. I mean sure if that's what you want, that's what you want, what am I supposed to say to that beyond:

That's a strawman, and let me reassure you that I don't subscribe to it. I hold that "asuka fans" pretentiously and falsely claim to uphold those post-modernist values you claim EVA has. Rather than being a genuinely developed appreciation for character, it is more like a memetic badge of honor worn by Asuka fans that has no real value at all.

Because when we get down to the question of what her flaws are, and how disruptive it is for their inflated version of Asuka, they all spazz out and reject the canonical version of Asuka.
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>>134145344
>yeah that's ad hominem nigga you haven't addressed why you believe flaws to be bad, or why they shouldn't be portrayed, or why I shouldn't make 'x' argument
It's not ad hominem because it's not directed at you,unless you felt hit by that remark. I suppose you did, and maybe you've outed yourself now.

Instead, try assessing the actual argument I made.
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>>134145385
>strawman
You're ad hominem'ing me, I really can't do anything but make suppositions to what your argument/opinion was.

>no real value at all
You're insane, it is fiction buddy.

>because yaddda yadda yadda
another unfounded ad hominem attack where you don't quote anything i say

coolstorybro
>>134145422
>ousted
You responded to my comment, and haven't added anything in your responses to my responses. Wow, what a great discussion we're having! Please, conflate me with your ideal of a generalized Asuka fan and then continue to belittle that representation without addressing any of the salient points i've made regarding the plot or characters!
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>>134145344
>no reply
I'll take that as you conceding.

>Where's the proof? Shinji is awake during this sequence; you're a delusional apologist.
It's in NGE. Shinji wakes up not remembering. Ritsuko says he blacked out. The entry plug is also blacked out as well and only come on after the fact.

>You're a miserable cunt.
You're butthurt.

>I made it; you didn't.
You didn't make shit.

>1) never happened the eva is the eva and exists beyond your speculation of what it symbolizes
It was merely interpretation, but it would be a consistent with the overall intepretation.

>2) you're begging the question of what my opinion is; I never stated that opinion
Whatever.

>I've made the case for Misato and Rei remaining in stasis. Claiming i've failed is just being a rude cunt.
You made your case, but obviously you failed since neither remain in stasis, and they both move forward for their owne ngine.
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>>134145293
>Not even once does Asuka do anything like "admit her mistakes".
Then what is the conscious decision to cooperate with others after a series of bumbling failures from trying to act on your own, if not an admission of mistake? She takes the defensive position in Rei's place and motivates it with not wanting to stay in her and Shinji's debt. She might not say it because she's prideful, but her actions show that she understands her limitations.

>Did she really learn to cooperate?
Yes she did. See above, where the angel was defeated using her plan, the dual angel episode(where, funnily enough, she learned to cooperate because the alternative was to have her pride wounded by getting replaced), she did cooperate with the falling-from-the-sky angel. You're literally ignoring Asuka's development. True, she was always cuntish, but her actions showed that it wasn't all just being a cunt.

I see we're walking in circles here, you're refusing to acknowledge basic facts. If you want to talk about "the canonical Asuka" I strongly suggest you rewatch NGE with a mind as free of prejudice as you can manage, because she's a much more nuanced character than would follow from your claims. And I would recommend paying more attention to Asuka's actions and less to her words.
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>>134145561
Your post doesn't have anything topical or of value. I can take it that you're just shitposting. Goodbye, enjoy being wrong.
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>>134145344
>You're projecting that there is only one truth for a piece of fiction with many disparate unexplained plot points. Who sounds irrational here?
You're evading reality by claiming there's more truths, you're also evading answering why it would not be the truth. Which makes sense, because you can't.

>That's inherently contradictory.
It's not, it's just that you're too dense to see even the obvious.

>So you believe that every human is inherently repetitive and imbues an active force against growth - I do too.
I don't, and that is not the point either.

>Rei sacrifices herself again and again for humanity and then chooses to leave it up to self-destructive and scared Shinij to 'help everyone'
Such a good girl. Let's shed a tear together for how great Rei is.

>Yes, as in she accepts the angelic nature of Lillith, which she is derivative of and is not in whole, but in part, as the identity she identifies with. which was my original point, which is why i say that Rei I,II, and Rei III/GNR are totally different characters in my mind one striving for humanity and the other distancing herself from it.
That doesn't quantify totally different character, but one character struggling with reconciling two different aspects of herself. Ritsuko and Naoko struggle balancing themselves as mothers, scientists and women, for one.

Rei is afraid because she's afraid to loser herself, to lose her shape. She says this in episode 25. That's why it's such a positive indicator that Rei remains her own shape in EoE.

That's why Rei does not "regress" to being her former self, but rather she recovers what she had lost of herself while powering on forward with what new she had learned. She regains thematically what her captors had robbed from her, her true potential. Everything they'd kept from her, sealed away in a dark basement.
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I don't really enjoy wasting my time reporting, but god dam this thread.
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>>134145762
>Then what is the conscious decision to cooperate with others after a series of bumbling failures from trying to act on your own, if not an admission of mistake?
Anything but.

Asuka starts that episode shouting and bitching that she wants to be leader. Even though she's clearly not cut out for it. Rewatch the episode, see what she does at the end? I'M THE LEADER AND I CALL THE SHOTS.
Rather than Asuka cooperating, it's Shinji and Rei going along with her because she can't be reasoned with.

Like I said, there is no such "admission of her mistakes". There are no actions that admits that she's wrong either. You were bluffing and you were caught.

It's made very clear in that episodes that no, Asuka did not learn much less even try to cooperate. This is something I can say entirely without prejudice or bias, because it's a fact and I'll demonstrate that:

When Asuka formulates said plan after again trying to act as the leader, the other two submits seeing as it's the best. While Rei accepts her plan, and wants to take defense, Asuka rejects that notion because SHE wants to do it.
Asuka isn't conceding, she isn't cooperating, she is demanding. If Matarael wasn't the weakest angel they've ever encountered, they'd probably be dead.

This is the canonical Asuka. Not the one you bluffed about.

She doesn't learn.
She doesn't improve.
That's why she ends up comatose after trying to kill herself.

She didn't have that basic aspect of humanity Shinji, Rei or Misato had, ability for change and introspection.
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>>134132590
Spoken like a true kuk
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>>134146181
>asukuks thinking their opinion matters
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>>134145621
conceding what exactly?
>>134145621
>shinji is awake
https://youtu.be/eHsDrC4j1cA?t=27s
I hate youtube.
>i made it
Yeah, I did
"I prefer to think of it was the natural progression of a self-destructive nature. "
Where did you say that?
>interpretation ; w/e
Stop throwing words in my mouth and stating your opinion as fact if you want to have a discussion that goes somewhere.
>they both move forward for their own engine
Nice job saying nothing bruh.
>>134145840
Neither did yours cunt.
>>134145897
You haven't made a single point of discussion.
>evading the truth
no contest
>contradictory
Yes it is, you have to state an opinion in order for it to be self-explanatory.
>force against growth
Well you're going to hide by not stating an opinion, again. How interesting!
>shed a Tear for Rei
I was pointing out how her character seems to change after she III's, and I have never argued that I could relate/sympathize with her as a tragic heroine. again, throw opinions down my throat haha
>two qualities of themselves
Yeah, I'm just saying that in my opinion she heavily weighs on side in her final form and it appears to me like she is rejecting her humanity ( which was the driving development of her character for the rest of the series: her trying to be 'hhuman' ).
>does not regress, regains, afraid to lose herself
Cool, yeah she rejects her humanity to become otherly reuniting with 'herself'. That's contradictory as she won't remain herself by reuniting with lilith, but will become something new again - that jives well with her 'fear of losing herself'. I understand your opinion that she is reaching some culmination, and that wholeness is the crystalization of her as a character, but that's where we differ in opinion.

I saw character development for a human the entire series, which culminated in her development into an other/angel.
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>>134146267
desu senpai the majority of your post is garbage so I'll just respond to the topical posts. I'll assume you conceded the rest of the points.

>You haven't made a single point of discussion.
Obviously I have, otherwise you wouldn't be replying to them in your post.

>Yeah, I'm just saying that in my opinion she heavily weighs on side in her final form and it appears to me like she is rejecting her humanity ( which was the driving development of her character for the rest of the series: her trying to be 'hhuman' ).
Then you misunderstood Rei. Rei never aspired to be "human" or to be more "human like". This is not that kind of character. This isn't fucking Yuki Nagato you're dealing with here. Rei is the real deal, the character that doesn't adhere to the cliche of a pinocchio girl. No rather Rei is picking up whatever human traits she can and learns about them, without putting it on a pedestal as the ultimate form of existence. What Rei actually is or isn't was never the point, that's why Rei's assertion isn't that "I'm HUMAN!", but "I am myself". Now finding out what you are is a challenge which the copout of clinging to a group has nothing to do with.

>Cool, yeah she rejects her humanity to become otherly reuniting with 'herself'. That's contradictory as she won't remain herself by reuniting with lilith, but will become something new again - that jives well with her 'fear of losing herself'.
Rei as Lilith is the origin of humanity itself. Her base humanity is the prototype of all humanity. Rei remains herself just like you remain yourself whenever you decide to change yourself. You decide to start working out or learn something, you change, but you are still yourself regardless. You don't lose yourself, you change yourself. Rei was afraid that the change would be so great that she'd be unrecognizable, and that people would forever distance her from the Rei they knew.
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>>134146267
>>134146592
(cont)
Rei adopting the form she recognizes herself as, rather than an unspeakable alien form Lilith could potentially have, is how Rei proves that she retains what she's been through as Rei Ayanami well into her reborn liltih phase.

>I saw character development for a human the entire series, which culminated in her development into an other/angel.
When the moral of the story is that humans are also Angels, and Rei herself shows that non-human life forms (biological anyhow) also thinks, feels and knows rejection and love, that's not such a bad thing.

After all, Rei was only human because she had been stripped down from her arguably more whole and greater self. It's a classic story when you consider it.

Rei as Lilith, an Angel of immense power is downcast, brainwashed to be a human, and abused/neglected and trapped. If you'd accept Rei as a heroine of a story for a moment, it follows the regular trip of normalcy, then into the underworld (of humanity) and triumphant back again into real realm she hailed from, only more wisened and changed by the experience.
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>>134146686
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>>134146093
Jesus Christ you are deluded.

Shinji and Rei never contest Asuka's bid for leadership. The role itself clearly isn't the point of contention, it's how Asuka plays it.

The problem lies in her not letting them make contributions and wanting to have the spotlight all the time. When she formulates a plan that divides the roles equally, the crisis is momentarily resolved.

>Like I said, there is no such "admission of her mistakes". There are no actions that admits that she's wrong either.
Except she clearly states that she's gonna take the most dangerous role because she doesn't want to be in Shinji and Rei's debt anymore. But I see you're conveniently ignoring that.

>You were bluffing and you were caught.
Projecting much?

>the other two submits seeing as it's the best
They kept quiet for the entire episode. Are you saying that Shinji and Rei are such doormats that they would endanger humanity for the sake of Asuka's feelings?

You can't deny that the plan worked perfectly and that's exactly why they accepted it - the problems were not because they had an issue with Asuka's leadership, but because Asuka wasn't really acting the part beforehand.

>Asuka rejects that notion because SHE wants to do it
You seem awfully focused on the fact that she isn't very nice in her communications with Rei. Have you perhaps thought about why she wants to take that particular role and protect the people she's been pushing around for the whole episode with her own body?

If it were just about having her way, then she'd surely take offense because killing the angel is the most glory. And I think you'll happily agree that Asuka is a glory hound.
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>>134146093
>>134147198
>If Matarael wasn't the weakest angel they've ever encountered, they'd probably be dead.
That's pure speculation on your part. Ifs are not arguments.

>She didn't have that basic aspect of humanity Shinji, Rei or Misato had, ability for change and introspection.
Saying that is like equating Rei with a hollow "teh rei xD" or claiming Shinji is nothing but a whiny bitch.
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>>134147198
>Shinji and Rei never contest Asuka's bid for leadership. The role itself clearly isn't the point of contention, it's how Asuka plays it.
I never said they contested it. I said that Asuka, despite multiple failures as you put it, still tries to act the leader. What did she learn? Nothing.

>The problem lies in her not letting them make contributions and wanting to have the spotlight all the time. When she formulates a plan that divides the roles equally, the crisis is momentarily resolved.
Precisely, but as I demonstrated: that still happens in that episode. She formulates the plan, and she doesn't accept input from the others because of her personal pride getting in the way.

She wants to hog the glory. Rei and Shinji being more cooperative accepts it and does their part well.

>Except she clearly states that she's gonna take the most dangerous role because she doesn't want to be in Shinji and Rei's debt anymore. But I see you're conveniently ignoring that.
See above. That's her ego again, it's her demanding the "dangerous role" so she can satisfy her ego. Again, not really cooperative.

>Projecting much?
Not the one that said that she "admitted her mistakes" and had nothing to show for it breh.

>They kept quiet for the entire episode. Are you saying that Shinji and Rei are such doormats that they would endanger humanity for the sake of Asuka's feelings?
Not the entire episode, and for the most part Asuka can just be ignored. Look at how Rei leads by action, Asuka is there talking smack while Rei is in the front getting shit done. Pic related.

>You can't deny that the plan worked perfectly and that's exactly why they accepted it -
I can because they wouldn't know if it worked unless they tried it. The problems were because of Asuka's ego. She causes Rei harm, Shinji harm, and it's actually her fault they get stuck in the EVA's there to begin with. It's her fellating her own ego that makes her unaware of the acid dropping on her. Rei noticed.
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>>134147198
>>134147308
Picture also related. It's Asuka desperately trying to mimick Rei.

>Are you saying that Shinji and Rei are such doormats that they would endanger humanity for the sake of Asuka's feelings?
No, but they are very passive. Doormats even.

>Have you perhaps thought about why she wants to take that particular role
I have and the conclusion is clear as day. She's egoistic and she's a problem maker more than a problem solver. She relies on luck and the charity of others to get by. She never learned anything that episode.

>If it were just about having her way, then she'd surely take offense because killing the angel is the most glory.
No, she wouldn't, because Asuka says it's the most glorious one to take defense:

>Shinji: But that's dangerous!
>Asuka: That's why!

She is still the selfish glory hound she's always been. Rei and Shinji shows cooperative spirit (volunteering to do work, and then accepting that Asuka wants it more because it's really a toss up). Rei nor Shinji shoulnd't have to waste time on Asuka's ego. Rei certainly finds it easy to do her role as best as she can if it's no risk otherwise.

>That's pure speculation on your part. Ifs are not arguments.
Matarael is the weakest angel. It literally just cried acid that hardly harmed the EVA. It died to a FUCKING PALLET GUN, the only Angel in the series to ever do so. Matarael got picked on by all the angels at school.

>Saying that is like equating Rei with a hollow "teh rei xD" or claiming Shinji is nothing but a whiny bitch.
Not at all, it's observing a fact. She didn't have that sort of introspection or ability to change. That's my point.

That's also why she, unlike Shinji, Rei or Misato, does not change and ends up a masturbation fantasy in EoE. That's why she had to be carried into her EVA, and activate plot hax for her to fight. Then she dies and gets saved by Instrumentality.
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>>134146592
>conceded/didn't address
Man you're shitposting is fierce. You take some moral high ground now, in the final two posts, in which you reveal any semblance of an opinion.
>this isn't yuki, human, what she really is
She is a human clone in body, which you've asserted is an important part of her identity, and I agree. That she associates, works for and with humans, is obvious. That she would try to understand herself and others through understanding her humanity is obvious.
>i am myself
Sure, but all of the characters may these tautological statements of self; humanity is the lense the viewer chooses to understand the characters through ( in my case, i'm not sure what you'd call your understanding of this 'otherwordly Rei' ). I'd argue that's the only way that the individual can assert its selfdom, is by tautology, and humanity is only through the interpretation of others, or in order to contextualize your actions towards others.

That Rei is inhuman is obviously true, and that she was examining her humanity is as well. I proposed that she examined it in order to understand herself and develop her identity, and you propose that it was only instrumental in her rejection of her humanity b/c you presume that the most natural route of answering her existential is to embrace Lilith.

>you don't lose yourself
It is argued either way by various philosophers and the unassailable unity of an individual is usually ratified under auspices of an otherworldly soul which the series alludes to at by way of Yuis and Rei's transmogrification.

>uniting with herself
As i've always argued I don't believe Rei to be lilith, and I reject the idea that reuniting with Lilith is reuniting with 'herself' for the exact reason you mention:

you change yourself, you don't destroy yourself ( lets leave philosophers to argue those vagueries )

And I see bonding with another ( as in instrumentality ) is destroying yourself by bonding to deeply with 'other ( humanity/lilith).
>>
>>134146696
alright, I see where you're coming from
and its a much greater context
but that's why its flat - we learn nothing of lilith - we learn nothing of GNR
>>
>>134147866
>She is a human clone in body, which you've asserted is an important part of her identity, and I agree. That she associates, works for and with humans, is obvious. That she would try to understand herself and others through understanding her humanity is obvious.
This is isn't at all an overt thing and is a far cry from "trying to be more human".

>Sure, but all of the characters may these tautological statements of self; humanity is the lense the viewer chooses to understand the characters through
Right. This is because whether or not you're human or an "alien", the theory is that if you posses what we recognize as consciousness, this question is fundamental to the core. That's why Rei, a being who is stripped of her "humanity" through her body being a replication of humanity, can also ask herself these questions. So it is not to be human, but to assert what you are. In Rei's case, her conclusion was never "I am human", or her path was never "I want to be human".

So my point is that she is not examining her humanity any more than she is examining herself.

>It is argued either way by various philosophers and the unassailable unity of an individual is usually ratified under auspices of an otherworldly soul which the series alludes to at by way of Yuis and Rei's transmogrification.
In Evangleion we have souls. We have transmogrification. Part of the canon, even for "human" characters. Quite literally if you take the lore into account, their souls are ALL otherworldly. But in the very real sense, Rei's journey is much like our own in the real world, an unbroken line of consciousness only interrupted by trauma and finally, death.

>As i've always argued I don't believe Rei to be lilith, and I reject the idea that reuniting with Lilith is reuniting with 'herself'
Well, when you put it that way, neither do I. She doesn't destroy herself, but regains parts of herself rather. Hence it's a homecoming, not a farewell. A "tadaima", not a "sayonara".
>>
>>134147908
>>134147866
>but that's why its flat - we learn nothing of lilith - we learn nothing of GNR
Because GNR is Lilith, and Rei is GNR, as well as Lilith, we do. It's Rei.

GNR, Lilith, Rei I, Rei II, Rei III, all names for the same character, the same evolving entity in Evangelion. We only give this dear child many names to better understand her complex journey. She changes so much a different name to go along with the change is necessary.
Regardless of her name at any given point, Rei is Rei, and who Rei is, is established as an ephemeral quality that's impossible to violate, and as such a replication of Rei would always be rejected as not being Rei despite being virtually identical physically.

that said I know I'm extrapolating far more from your post there than I should have.
>>
>>134147308
>Asuka, despite multiple failures as you put it, still tries to act the leader.
But that isn't the problem. I won't repeat my point if you're refusing to acknowledge it.

>she doesn't accept input from the others because of her personal pride getting in the way
It's not about input, it's about the contribution. Note Gendo earlier in the episode, here clearly portrayed as the model leader. He doesn't take input from people, but he works alongside them and shares their burdens while not overshadowing them - that's leadership.

>Rei and Shinji being more cooperative accepts it and does their part well.
Cherrypicking again. Does Asuka not do her job well? She does, but you turn a blind eye.

>demanding the "dangerous role" so she can satisfy her ego. Again, not really cooperative.
Other fights clearly show that Asuka wants to go in for the kill in order to satisfy her ego. Notice how she flips her shit whenever she is relegated to a role other than attacking the Angel in other episodes.

>The problems were because of Asuka's ego
Yes exactly. And she allows the angel to pour acid on her precisely because of that being her fault. It's meant as an act of self-sacrifice you'd be quick to point out if it were Rei.

>No, but they are very passive. Doormats even.
So essentially you are claiming that they accepted Asuka's plan(upon which the fate of the world rested at the moment)because they were doormats? Who's dumber, the fool, or their follower?

>Asuka says it's the most glorious one to take defense
Dangerous != glorious. Again, see Asuka's reaction in any other situation that has her relegated to a role other than offense.

>Matarael is the weakest angel.
And none of that matters because at the time we're talking about it completely held NERV by the balls.
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>>134148500
oops wrong quote>>134147554
>>134147787
>>134147839

also cont.

>she, unlike Shinji, Rei or Misato, does not change and ends up a masturbation fantasy in EoE.
She does change, but as I pointed out it's not a change in the same direction, it's an improvement followed by a regression.

>>134147839
Wow, you're really grasping at straws.

Anyway I'm rather tired, so I'll be leaving. I'm also pretty certain you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. Do what you want with what you read here, I don't think anything's capable of convincing you, because you're clearly dead set on the idea that Asuka's superficial mannerisms determine what kind of character she is. Needless to say the outlook is rather shallow and ignorant of much what happens in the show(or as with the above posts, twisting them into what fits the predetermined mold). It's amusing because your interpretation hinges entirely on the bitchy exterior that she displays for show and sees everything else in the light it casts, never considering that maybe, maybe she doesn't always say what she thinks. Good night.
>>
>>134148260
>far cry
She could choose to not do those things, which would make my assertion a far claim. Don't rebut without a frame of reference - please.
>Humanity
Ok we essentially agree, and I don't know how to discuss the topic of 'seeking the essence of humanity as a means to justify yourself' versus 'the identification of the self as a tautology of conscious experience'. Existentialism is befuddling.

>herself
Ok i get it, but that's why I regret it as a conclusion to her character - she's running away as much as she's moving forward. I guess you're right though that she was always otherworldy and her souls would need to reunite with her body.

>>134148475
>identity
Hmm, ok. I'd argue that we only learn about the human Rei, as she was trauma'd into a pseudo identity reset that she always had to recover from and reestablish herself from in form. But ok, you're saying her angel essence would logic and act in a Rei-like way which is why Rei is Rei; again my only point of contention is the discontinuity between Rei II and Rei III, but from your position the argument is meaningless as that's only one embodiment.

Basically I reject the otherwordly, and love the existentialism in evangelion. The parallelism/contrast among angels and humans is something I've always rejected - they are polar opposites and only exist by destroying each other (ying/yang of the eggs). I liked it when humans, humans, humans.

The continuity is a cool thing though, and if there were context on the ends ( GNR given some meaningful actions, or lilith doing something we could interpret from episode 23/retcon) I would be super cool with it.

That's why I said she existed as a plotpoint because I feel like there's not enough context.

Thanks for the discussion.
>>
>>134148500
>But that isn't the problem. I won't repeat my point if you're refusing to acknowledge it.
It is a problem nevertheless. I don't acknowledge your point because of that. She didn't learn or admit her mistake.

>It's not about input, it's about the contribution.
Strangely similar words here. Contribution is input, and input is contribution. It's a moot point you're making because Asuka is not fit to be a leader. Simple as.

>Cherrypicking again. Does Asuka not do her job well? She does, but you turn a blind eye.
Not cherrypicking. Your defense is just a strawman, because my point concerned how they cooperated, not how well they did their jobs. Asuka wants to be leader and forces her way through, even though she's not fit.
She did her job objectively worse than the others. Picture related, crashing on top of EVA00 because she was too busy worrying about how "cool" she looked.

I'm seriously not cherrypicking. The entire episode, and all of Asuka is like this. She's not "doing her job well" when she bosses people around and talks behind their back in that episode either.

>She does change, but as I pointed out it's not a change in the same direction, it's an improvement followed by a regression.
There is no improvement. Not in this episode.

>I don't think anything's capable of convincing you, because you're clearly dead set on the idea that Asuka's superficial mannerisms determine what kind of character she is
I can be convinced, but in this case, there's no convincing me because I'm right here. The screencaps, you bluffing that she admitted her mistakes, and all the posts ITT prove that. It's not a superficial thing, it's how Asuka is at the core.
The "fantasy Asuka deep inside that's a good girl" literally doesn't exist. She's this foul insecure creature that's been ruined by her childhood. That's the real Asuka.

Internally, she never improved either but spiraled down into suicide. That's the real Asuka. Not your waifu imagination of her.
>>
>>134148779
>Ok i get it, but that's why I regret it as a conclusion to her character - she's running away as much as she's moving forward.
Not really, you perhaps haven't learned Rei's lessons. You too are afraid of change, just like Rei's was. Who's to say it's not going to be better? She was running away from herself in NGE when she admitted she was afraid of who she'd become.

This: >I guess you're right though that she was always otherworldy and her souls would need to reunite with her body.
is Rei's reality. She cannot run away from it. She will either remain a reduced version of herself, or a full version of herself.

>again my only point of contention is the discontinuity between Rei II and Rei III
What would said discontinuity be? Rei dies and is resurrected. The soul is the same, the conscious is the same, but the physical body is not. A very classic but still very interesting sci-fi philosophical scenario, how much do memories matter?
There is no discontinuity, only a heartwrenching sacrifice of everything Rei had worked for. Her memories with Shinji and the others, much of them are gone. What Rei realized there with Armisael, also lost in terms of memories.
But that's when we remember that EVA operates with has a consciousness and soul.

That's why Rei's scene with the glasses is significant. She has the reason she needs to crush them now. Gendo resurrected her again, didn't show up at the hospital but Shinji did, and she's bitterly alive again. She doesn't remember and she's all alone now.
But she knows something she should not have known: that when she cries there in her apartment, that it isn't the first time she's done so.

Rei cried the first time when she fought Armisael, her first teardrops were shed then. She could not have known this after she is resurrected. This is why she recalls that she has no memories of having cried, but she knows that it's not the first time regardless.
>>
>>134149131
>The continuity is a cool thing though, and if there were context on the ends ( GNR given some meaningful actions, or lilith doing something we could interpret from episode 23/retcon) I would be super cool with it.
About continuity and things that were there from the start: Here's one of the things that GNR/Rei did.

This is episode one. Episode one! Rei peering at Shinji, through the void and time.

Thanks again.
>>
Who gives a flying fuck about Shinji, Mari is Asuka's waifu now
>>
>>134149537
>Mari is Asuka's waifu now
see
>>134129673
>>
>>134149131
>conciousness is the same
Ahh, it is clear it isn't and that's the crux of your argument that she continually changes.

>heartwarming sacrifice
While you can agree with the decision, or not I don't think you can call it heartwarming -_-'

>glasses scene
That's what I mean about her being different everytime she dies.
>>134149204
Damn I knew this scene and forgot about it, I guess you're right about EoE and this scene. Going to presume here: she just wants to be with/of use to Shinji?

Interesting contrast point. Now if to win the evangellybean you only need to create a sensible timeline that incorporates >quoted, with that infamous reflection of Rei in the eyes of ¿Gendou/ritsuko? that someone found in a stillframe?

There's one more point too, I can't remember something about Armisael in the directors cut. Then you could probably canonize GNR's retroactive affect on the series, and a solid continuity for GNR/(Rei).
>>
>>134149625
soooo what is (rei)'s opinion about how Rei-I/II/III feels ? She accepts all the crap because she is herself who will be herself reunited with herself and therein cannot not be herself if she doesn't go through the crap to reunite with herself that is herself?
...
It feels like I could run with this regarding evil-Yui.
>>
>>134149704
Rei is Rei i/II/III.
>>
>>134149846
you need a certain lack of self-awareness to be simultaneously multiple existences (re: your picture and Rei-II). Sooo it isn't a complete interpretation yet, but you're definitely close.
>>
>>134149625
>Ahh, it is clear it isn't and that's the crux of your argument that she continually changes.
Rei changes over time. She says that herself.

>While you can agree with the decision, or not I don't think you can call it heartwarming -_-'
Heartwrenching, I mean. Maybe autocorrect.

>Ahh, it is clear it isn't and that's the crux of your argument that she continually changes.
No it's clear it's the same bro.

>That's what I mean about her being different everytime she dies.
Why would she NOT be different? She's the same person but she changes for clear reasons. She even makes it clear she's alive again and doesn't quite know why, as if it were unwelcome.

>Then you could probably canonize GNR's retroactive affect on the series, and a solid continuity for GNR/(Rei).
There was no "GNR" in NGE, much like there was no nothing from EoE in terms of animation or anything besides the base story. But that Rei reunites with Lilith and activates the instrumentality project is there, and that she takes on an ephemeral role from thereon is.

>>134149704
Dafuq? That's like asking how Shinji's opinon about Shinji is. Until EoE Rei experiences time linearly.
>>
>>134150027
>You need a certain lack of self-awareness to be simultaneously multiple existences (re: your picture and Rei-II).
That's the clue though. Rei isn't simultaneously all those three. Those are just period names.

It's a name we the audience, give her because there are milestones in her life in which she changes drastically through death and reincarnation. At any and all times Rei is just Rei in the anime.

It's as if we name Shinji in episode 1-6 for "Shinji I", and then onwards before Zeruel he's Shinji II, and after that he's Shinji III and finally, Normal-size Choking Shinji in EoE, or NCS for short.
>>
Autism the thread etc
>>
>>134150051
>says so herself
That's what i meant about conciousness though, and that's why I say GNR can't be Rei-II, etc.

>the same
ehh

>unwelcome
Ohh i remember this - nostalgia feels good.

>different continuities between EoE and series
I always interepreted the series ending as the internal monologue of shinji in instrumentality, which was punctuated by his argument with Asuka, which pulled him out of his reverie ( congratulations ). That's all conjectures though.

>until then rei experiences time linearly
Hmm, I don't know how to express this but 'after' experiencing time linearly I would assume doesn't exist, and creating a continuity between times forces the conception of a supraconciousness. The movie 14 monkeys ( which is pretty shitty ) and a few other time traveller shows like Time crimes use that short information paradox.

>>134150178
>changes drastically
While I previously agreed with you regarding the ego's regulation of the self being transformatory, and not destructive, the way Rei reincarnates is ( i believe ) detructive and disembodying to the point that Rei needs to reconstitute herself.

I disagree with the principle you use to contextualize a 'Shinji', but would be forced to concede a pre/post-leliel shinji, and post-leliel/post-eoe shinji.

>>134150397
back to 1999hxh threads
>>
can we all agree rei has best butt
>>
>>134150468
>That's what i meant about conciousness though, and that's why I say GNR can't be Rei-II, etc.
Why not? I've yet to see a good reason.


>While I previously agreed with you regarding the ego's regulation of the self being transformatory, and not destructive, the way Rei reincarnates is ( i believe ) detructive and disembodying to the point that Rei needs to reconstitute herself.
I don't disagree. But reconstitution still implies continuity.

>I disagree with the principle you use to contextualize a 'Shinji', but would be forced to concede a pre/post-leliel shinji, and post-leliel/post-eoe shinji.
The exact divisions I chose were arbitrary, it's the point that needs furthering. That the names Rei I and Rei II are just that, names we the audience gave them. In the series, we deal with Rei Ayanami, and Rei Ayanami only.

In short, we only use Rei I because then it's clear that we mean Rei before she died the first time, when she was a child. Rei II is then the Rei we see for most of the show, and Rei III/GNR is the final development in Rei's arc, which arcs back to episode 1.
>>
>>134150843
Absolutely not.
>>
>>134127708
Asuka doesn't deserve Shinji, he fapped to her while she was comatose.

Let him be with Kaworu, Asuka deserves someone better.
>>
>>134127708

Dude... Shinji is gay as fuck for skinny angel boys. Asuka only wants guys who don't bitch and moan about every little thing
>>
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>>134150872
>>134150468
anyway good night, need to sleep.
>>
>>134150872
their experience, and therein consciousness are different, so i'd claim they were different people.

If you believe that GNR went back in time and it wasn't the ghost of Yui, and existented at the same time as Rei-II then it depends on what type of canon time travel it is ( closed loop or broken line ).

>>134151187
night
>>
>>134151235
>If you believe that GNR went back in time and it wasn't the ghost of Yui, and existented at the same time as Rei-II then it depends on what type of canon time travel it is ( closed loop or broken line ).
Hold the fuck on, Rei ain't no ghost of Yui.

Yui is a different person and entity altogether.

There is just one Rei Ayanami. She is born through Lilith being reborn as human, hence Rei loses whatever memories Lilith had. Dying almost repeats that process but because they can backup memories, Rei isn't reborn as an infant every time.
>>
>>134151375
ahh I don't know why you responded, I'm not interpreting Rei as Yui, if you look up that still some people purport that the Rei-looking apparation in the first episode is not Rei - was just trying to keep it ambiguous as depending on the post there were differences in continuity ( is eoe part of the original continuity, or not ) and if there is a GNR in the original instrumentality.
>>
>>134151601
The original instrumentality (series) could either be construed as Selee, original, or EoE scenario, and different as a result. It sounds like Eva-01 was suppose to merge with adam, and that Rei merging with adam was Gendou's scenario.
>>
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>>134150843
>best butt
>>
>>134151745
Seele's scenario was all Evas, directly using the seeds themselves was Gendo being crazier than they could conceive if he wanted to steal it all from under them.
>>
>>134151601
That's pretty dumb considering it's Rei in the first ep, dead ringer outfit and all.
>>
>>134127708
I say Rei is best girl.
>>
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>>134159644
And you'd be right about it.
>>
Anon, the staff laughs at the idea Asuka and Shinji being actually romantic in a grand-party orchestra after EoE.

They can only hurt each other.

They want to fuck each other, but Asuka wants to fuck anything, so does Shinji. They are hormonal. They are more exposed to their toxic pent up need of validation and sexuality.

There aren't romantic feelings, just need of acknowledgment and self-gratification.
>>
>shippershit

I hope Kaworu returns as a girl in Final and she has an orgy with Rei, Rei Q, Sakura, Yui, Ritsuko, Misato, Mari and Asuka while Shinji watches holding the corpse of Pen Pen and fapping.
>>
>>134151601
>>134151745
>>134155190

The point is that they couldn't do this as long as Kaworu lived. They needed the last angel gone as 'sacrifice' for DEEP untold matters. If Kaworu and Shinji hadn't been so wrapped in their drama, they wouldn't have been manipulated into setting up the Impact (so was Misato, who was foolishly led to take revenge on angels when her father died thanks to Seele and she realized it too late. Everyone in Nerv was also manipulated for this shit).
>>
>>134159644
Wrong.
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