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Togashi Villains

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No power level circle-jerking please

Toguro was surprisingly better written than I remembered and, dare I say it, had a more nuanced characterization than Sensui.

I liked how the series built up Toguro's entire character without really "lying" to the audience. Sure he had a sob backstory, but the series didn't go out of its way to excuse him for being the asshole he was (he basically wanted Yusuke to prove him wrong in his choices for being a dick to everyone he loved). Compare that to Sensui where most of his characterization, while interesting on paper, is presented last minute in such a hamfisted way. It's like Togashi had these great ideas but didn't have the time to properly flesh them out in a subtler way (RL issues didn't help).

Don't get me wrong, Sensui is still really good but I ended up liking Toguro more after watching the series again after such a long time.
>>
I like Mereum
>>
I could beat up Toguro in a fight. In fact Id bet Id bully him if we were in middle school.
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>>133650210
I didn't like Sensui's dumb split personalities and the fact that he had the same "I wanted you to kill me all along because I'm ashamed of what I've become" shtick that Toguro did.
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>>133650210
>not reading the manga

Also, Chrollo a best
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>>133650210

Both Toguro and Sensui had something in common, their fear of death.

Toguro gave up his humanity in order to keep his body young and cheat death. Sensui went through all that keikaku because he was a dead man walking due his terminal disease (cancer perhaps?).

Perhaps this says something about Togashi and how he was terrified of death during the time he wrote YYH, I guess that's something we all go through during our lives, when we realize how mortal we are, be it due struggling against disease or seeing a loved one die.
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>>133650347
I've read the manga, but I just wanted to watch the anime again. Also yes, Chrollo is great.

>>133650262
I really need to get on with HxH. I stopped at a certain point but couldn't remember where exactly so I'll have to restart the series. I've heard some really good stuff about Meruem's writing so I'm looking forward to it.

>>133650336
I didn't mind the personality split, I just thought it was way too late in the story to have it properly introduced midway through the fight.

>>133650385
That actually makes sense. The vibe behind Sensui's terminal illness end almost felt indicative of Togashi's failing health at the time.
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Kuroro is greatest of all time.

Meruem, Genei Ryodan, Hisoka, Sensui are also incredible.
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>>133650210
>had a more nuanced characterization than Sensui.
That's because Toguro was a good villain that acted as the perfect foil to Genkai's teachings, and was the perfect thematic fit for Yusuke's rival. Sensui was a horribly written villain, and literally only tryhard pseudo-intellectuals who think effeminate soft spoken men are inherently smart believe that he's a well written villain.

>Sensui is still really good
He's not at all. His entire motivation stems from the fact that he's too stupid to realize that good and bad people exist, just like good and bad demons exist.
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>>133651915
I don't disagree with a lot of your points actually, I just don't view Sensui as negatively as you do (the "pseudo-intellectuals" comment is so horribly spot-on from what I've seen though).

I think I should have phrased things a bit better. I thought Sensui was really good compared to a lot of shounen fighting series, which I'll admit, doesn't really say much. That said, I did find the ideas that make up his character interesting, though I'd be hard-pressed to say that the execution was well-written at all especially compared to Toguro's more nuanced writing.
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>>133651915
>He's not at all. His entire motivation stems from the fact that he's too stupid to realize that good and bad people exist, just like good and bad demons exist.

Demon Lives Matter
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I like how in by the last arc Togashi realizes his power levels went through the roof and instead of making BIGGER SPIRIT WAVES he just made the fights end after 60 hours because one of the fighters got tired or some shit. Pretty clever
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>>133651915
>Sensui was a horribly written villain

Sensui wanted to die fighting a strong demon, but in order to do that he needed to open a portal to Makai (since he couldn't use official portals due being a criminal by that point).

What's hard to understand about this?
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>>133651915
Not understanding good and evil and his absolute thinking was Sensuis major flaw, that is why koenma went with Yusuke who wasn't anywhere near a "pure" (autistic) as Sensui.
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>>133654411
It's also the reason why HxH was more about the strategy or unique power than the power level for almost every fight. The only bullshit power up was built up or teased for half the series, so it can be somewhat excused. The end of most battles is satisfying, because they don't usually come down to "I was stronger than you", not even Meruem vs Netero.
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>>133654609
>What's hard to understand about this?
Did you forget everything about how he went insane?

>>133654615
>Not understanding good and evil and his absolute thinking was Sensuis major flaw
And he was horribly written because his problem was fundamentally retarded in every aspect.
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>>133654929
I actually think Sensui's character was genius. It showed a very robust personality, which leans on being hard working and having a clear/rigid world view. People like those excel at almost everything they put their mind on, not very open though. I've heard that recently, it was found that people like these are also sensitive to disgust; just like Sensui being disgusted at demons, later humans. Togashi creating this character years before there were links between those is just brilliant.

There is no escape for Sensui when his world view shattered seeing the horrors that humans can do. When he learned that his ideals were lies, nothing makes sense for him anymore. Logic do not work when one is pushed to the edge. What usually happens is they cling and dig into what is in their psyche all this time. He kills passionately for a living. He cannot kill demons for humans anymore because the ideal holding that is no longer true. From Demons do not deserve to live to Humans do not deserve to live. There's no turning to White Tape after that. It's not like he was pursuing the truth and has to balance things out; he had his truth but was shattered by the reality forced upon him.

Sensui's fragment personalities weren't focused much in the manga, but the anime did much on it. A little too much focus though I think. I think Togashi didn't really want to go into details into that; just showing how Sensui's mind was shattered by the trauma he received.
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>>133654929

He went insane and then got told that he had just a couple months to live before his disease killed him.

I don't think people in that state care much about the world in general or consequences for their acts. The disease was just the trigger for him to put in motion his plan of redeeming himself for blindly killing countless innocent demons with the excuse of following orders.
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>>133655139
>I actually think Sensui's character was genius
How's middle school going for you?

>>133655142
>The disease was just the trigger
That's not what set him off. Do you even remember why he went over the edge? I'll give you a hint: it's the title of the arc.
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>>133655246
>How's middle school going for you?

Now you are just being rude.
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>>133655246
>How's middle school going for you?
Compelling post.
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>>133655304
No, you write like a middle schooler and you're analysis of "geniuses misunderstood by society" is extremely juvenile.

>>133655328
Brevity is the soul of wit.
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I love Illumi. Dude is brilliant.
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>Sensui getting mixed reviews
I just finished the dark tournament ark but heard it gets worse. Is it worth it to keep watching for Sensui?
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>>133655246

>How's middle school going for you?

the retardation is astounding
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>>133654704
>The only bullshit power up was built up or teased for half the series

How was Gon-san teased/built up?
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>>133655489
>No capital letters or punctuation
>Calling others retarded because they're buttmad
Try articulating a valid point before you pretend to be smarter than someone else.
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>>133655375
>can't into grammar
>replies to a decent argument with a one liner showing a lack of intelligence and ability to think
Try articulating a valid point before you pretend to be smarter than someone else.
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>>133655522
The entire explanation of nen restrictions and their relevance to power, especially how it worked with Kurapika. You know that with Gon's personality, and how these restrictions were introduced, he would do something drastic eventually with his back against the wall. Obviously the furthest to go with this would be to sacrifice everything you have and will have, to be able to win one fight.

The only real bullshit is how he recovered was a pure deus ex machina that would be a tie in to the next arc.
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>>133655661
I know you're assblasted that someone called you out for being in middle school, but it's time to stop samefagging.

>can't into grammar
>People like those excel at almost everything they put their mind on, not very open though.
>I've heard that recently, it was found that people like these are also sensitive to disgust; just like Sensui being disgusted at demons, later humans.
>There is no escape for Sensui when his world view shattered seeing the horrors that humans can do.
>When he learned that his ideals were lies, nothing makes sense for him anymore.
>Logic do not work
>What usually happens is they cling and dig into what is in their psyche all this time.
> It's not like he was pursuing the truth and has to balance things out
>but the anime did much on it
>A little too much focus though I think.
>I think Togashi didn't really want to go into details into that;
All of these are riddled with grammatical errors, and the fundamental idea is an overly romanticized view of "hard working people who can truly excel and who are separated mentally from the normal population." This entire post reeks of middle school from top to bottom.

So I'll ask again, how's middle school going for you?
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>>133655903
>paranoia
>anal devestation
>autism
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>>133656009
>Claim someone doesn't understand grammar
>Call them autistic when they point out your grammatical errors
>Proceed to shitpost
Oh you're not in middle school, you're just one of those retarded ESLfag monkeys.

Carry on.
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>>133656066
>repeated paranoia
>repeated anal devestation
>repeated autism
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>>133656128
So are you just greentext shitposting because you're embarrassed and don't want to attempt to (and inevitably fail to) write a coherent sentence in English?

What subhuman language do you speak?
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>>133655139
OP here. I really like the ideas and motivations that went into Sensui's character, so I actually agree with most of your sentiments here even if Toguro is my personal favorite.

I just thought it was a shame that Togashi wasn't able to evenly spread this characterization out as meticulously as he did with Toguro. Sure we got a lot of stuff leading up to him but it's forced exposition that lasts even till the end of the arc. "Show don't tell" is what Sensui needed.

>>133654411
>>133654704
The power levels were beyond ridiculous by that point, I'm just glad that Togashi (and by extension the anime staff) ended it on a more thoughtful note.

I'm definitely looking forward to HxH in this regard.

>>133655460
Go for it. Toguro is my absolute favorite villain but Chapter Black was the more fun arc due to the investigative atmosphere (unless you prefer the fighting which was more prevalent in the Dark Tournament arc).
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I'm always amazed we can have mostly productive discussion about a series that's more than 20 years old.

My favorite Togashi villain was The Doctor. He may have been a shallow villain but he pushed Yusuke in a way that no other villain pushed any protagonist in YYH or HxH.
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>>133658331
For a one-off villain, he was actually one of the most entertaining. Simple but effective for that mini arc.
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>>133650210
>straightforward "gimme more powah" Ahnold expy
>more nuanced than Sensui

This is how delusional dubfags are.
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>>133660761
I've watched the series subbed and dubbed, and I've read the manga in moon. You're a fucking idiot if you think Sensui was nuanced or Toguro being straightforward made the execution any less great.
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>>133650210
That's because Sensui is a faggot and you're a homophobe.
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>>133655139
>It showed a very robust personality, which leans on being hard working and having a clear/rigid world view.
A battle shounen MC gone bad, basically.
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>>133658331
Doctor has some of the most practical and underrated powers I've ever seen.
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>>133660761
>>133660819
Toguro being straightforward is exactly what made him great. No pretentious BS nor any hiding what he was all about. You're just left to pick up the pieces that make up his entire character.

His personality and musclebound appearance had little bearing on the nuanced writing he got from Togashi and that's what makes it so pleasantly surprising.
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>>133661463
>His personality and musclebound appearance had little bearing on the nuanced writing he got from Togashi and that's what makes it so pleasantly surprising.
Yes. He didn't need to be an effeminate pseudo-intellectual with no real depth in order for Togashi to fake him being well written.
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>>133660880
OP here. I actually like the fact that we got a faggot main villain. I just wish that Togashi treated him better than what we got in the end.
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>>133650347
>Implying it matters
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One guy here seems to hate Sensui with a passion.
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>Big bad is actually just some poor, tortured soul.
>All other bad guys are just total scum bags.

Pretty much Togashi's rule of thumb.
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>>133661627
>Liking the villain from the arc where Togashi ran the series into the ground after being forced to write
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I'm a huge HxH fag and even then I can't help but think that the dynamic nature of the plot and storytelling inflates its characters and especially its villains into seeming like they're deeper and more interesting than they actually are. For example, is Killua as a concept very interesting if not for his genius tactics? Is Meruem very compelling without Komugi, Netero or the RGs to provide unique contrasts? I feel that YYH characters boasted far more individual depth and nuance, even to the point where the plot just seemed like an excuse to showcase them.

The way the characters mesh together with the flow of the story in HxH is great though, and they're still better than most characters anyway.
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>>133662317
Agreed, everyone including me thinks chrollo and hisoka are the best shit ever but what do they even do? Hisoka's whole character is that he's smart, tricky and has an insane drive to fight 'complete' beings which is cool yeah but not very substantial IMO
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>>133662317
While I can't say for certain about HxH (need to restart my marathon on the series) I've heard similarly that it's really good at using the narrative to setup the characters in a larger than life sort of way, which makes the experience a rather fun and dynamic one.

In comparison, I've seen arguments floating around that YYH was better at handling the individual nuances of its central characters, even if the overarching plot itself was pretty dull or robust most of the time.

It would be really great to see how Togashi's writing developed throughout the years with HxH, being a YYH fag myself.
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Itsuki was the best character in YYH.
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>>133662926
Itsuki and Mukuro were Togashi's favorite characters apparently. So much so that he wished to write more about them.
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That's because Toguro was an original villain.

As was Sensui, however, his entire saga has the backdrop of the Book of Revelations as a foundation.

Sensui is the AntiChrist. He's born on 6/6/1960. He has 7 "heads" like the Great Beast. While Yusuke, Kuwabara, Kurama, and Hiei are all Pestilence (he has a "bow", and he dies. The Bible says that only the righteous shall inherit the crown of life.), War ("and a great sword was given to him, and power to take peace from the earth), Famine (he keeps account of the wheat/wine, and has a scale like Kurama is two people), and Death ("and Hades followed behind him." The Darkness technique comes from the lowest pit of spirit world).

Where Togashi went wrong is that he didn't know where to hit the brakes on some of the analogies. Which is why the seven deadly sins (which is not entirely a scriptural construction btw) are represented twice, by Sensui and by each of his seven psychics.

FOR WHAT PURPOSE? THERE WAS NO NEED TO DO THEM TWICE.

I can't watch Yuyu Hakusho now without this bugging me.
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>>133663005
Great taste as expected from the master.
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>>133651915
Do you really expect a battle shonen hero turned villain to understand morality and ethics?
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Nice, another decent YYH thread that dies after 5 replies.
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>>133663049
I didn't know about Team Yusuke being compared to the various figures in the Book of Revelations so that's new to me. That said, the other Biblical references and "Fallen Angel/Anti-Christ" motifs were abundantly clear.

I agree, Togashi just didn't know where to stop with how much he was trying to hammer those ideas beyond what they're based on. The part where the good guys have that realization that the "seven" that Sensui referred to were actually about a different set of "seven" couldn't be more ham-fisted than it was.

Which sucks because I didn't mind the reasoning and analogies being made about them, be it the split personalities or the psychics.
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>>133663005
>tfw Togashi said Keiko was his least favorite because she's a 'manga cliche'
He's not wrong.
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>>133663049
>FOR WHAT PURPOSE? THERE WAS NO NEED TO DO THEM TWICE.
It was just a basic bait and switch thing.
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Togashi antagonists are pretty basic, they aren't at all well written and are a dime-a-dozen.

You're reading too much into them for stuff that just isn't there. They are bog standard shounen antagonists.
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>>133664871
I agree with them being basic and straightforward, but they're more well-written than a lot of shounen antagonists out there (not counting the grunts, just the main antagonists). Besides, most of the stuff mentioned in this thread are hardly extrapolation when they're actually brought up in the series by the various characters themselves.
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Botan is the biggest cocktease

Anyone else felt extremely melancholic when the OP theme kicked in on the beach at the end? I really didn't want it to end there, but it was a really good one
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>>133667010
Me too, honestly. I never realized how much fun I had with YYH until the ending theme on the beach. Since I first caught the show on Toonami way back when, it felt like I was finally closing the door on my childhood ;_;
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>>133650210
>Toguro was only a B-Class demon
OVER
THE
LINE
>>
They're all uniformly awful aside from Hisoka
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>>133667123
>I never realized how much fun I had with YYH until the ending theme on the beach
This, i loved the VA, loved the characters and then it just ended. Kuwabara best bro
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>>133667149
He might have momentarily stepped into A territory at the very end, when it was clearly too much for his body to handle.
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What are some other anime that have the kind of QUALITY that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiGA4tJCnI4 (9:50 on) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQZLMkdEAVY (2:16 on) have?
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>>133667149
>power levels
That stuff never actually bothered me because it had little to no relevance in the actual arc he was in, given how he wanted to die by Yusuke's hand. Besides, Toguro himself said he'd have gone into the demon world had Yusuke actually failed in killing him (be it getting himself killed there or tried to get a power boost instead).
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>>133667869
Wasn't it Shinbou who specifically did the storyboard on those? Pretty sure that was some of the last work he did before taking the producer/mentor role for Shaft.
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>>133667869
>Quality
The doctor fight is pretty great and has some nice shots in it.
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Does Baka Ouji count?

Also, Togashi was addicted to Dragon Quest before HxH. Wonder why he got lazier.
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>>133668700
That was my point :)
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>>133667869
I always thought quality was shitty art AND animation. If it's for the sake of better animation I'll gladly take a hit in art.

But you can't go full retard like they did with the Pain fight in Naruto
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>>133669022
my bad
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>>133668795
He was overworked to the point he thought he was gonna die during YYH, not wanting that to happen again isn't getting lazier. It's just gaining the freedom to tell Jump to get fucked.
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>>133669066
QUALITY is just unusual animation. Out of the ordinary. For some people it's trashed for others lauded. Though I guess QUALITY posting has drifted towards shit-tier animations and drawings with the DBSuper grabs.

In my case, I think these scenes from Yu Yu Hakusho are very good and that more directors should go for impressionistic ideas. I think the off-model and desperate Bui were smart decisions.
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>>133669171
I always liked how crazy this got from 13.08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoKUjUChytU
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>>133662317
>Killua as a concept very interesting if not for his genius tactics?
What? Nobody really cares about him for that, it's more his personality that people are into. Did you mean Hisoka?
>Is Meruem very compelling without Komugi, Netero or the RGs to provide unique contrasts?
Kinda hard to write character development based around someone's perception of other's without it relying on their interactions, but Meruem's internal struggle alone was still interesting.

It's kind of a weird complaint to make, most characterization will get externalized in their relationships.
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>>133669326
>blocked in your country
USA USA USA
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>>133655854
I dunno man, Gon almost kills himself in a trivial contest with Netero, then gets his arm shattered in a fight, gets better, then actually gets his arm blown the fuck off, gets it fixed with nen, then blows up his entire body, gets it fixed with even more powerful nen.

You can call it an asspull, but it was definitely built up. Besides, what actually happens is that Gon sacrifices all the nen potential that he's built up and destroys his body in the process, what he actually exchanges isn't his life or his body, that's merely like a side effect of wielding that power in a body that can't actually contain it. Alluka fixes his body, but his nen, all the effort he's put in so far, all the strength and ability that he would have had, that's still gone.
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>>133669372
Try this version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aLSmphf9PE
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>>133669326
Those bits were great, damn.

Even just the little moments like that one leg sweep at 1:52 and how the camera shifts along with the movement as if Yusuke drags the entire window lighting/perspective towards his back. Really dynamic storyboarding there.
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>>133669574
If the series went on furtherhis power would come back. Shonen series are pathetically predictable. I bet you thought Goku was really dead forever too.
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>>133669848
Its not the biggest fight in the series but i personally think its the most memorable.
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>>133650210
C H R O L L O
H
R
O
L
L
O
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>>133670119
Oh definitely. It was such a standout in terms of animation and it's probably why most people even remembered the Doctor at all.
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>>133667149
Every time, and I find it funny how that bothered a lot of people. Myself included. Toguro looked so powerful, calling him a scrub felt tasteless.
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