How did a Noble Villian with complex motivations become a Disney-tier

>Gilgamesh
>Villain

>complex motivations
ayy

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>>133501641
>Gil
>noble
>complex

>Gil
>Villain

>>133501641
He was still a threat in UBW, now HF that's where he got shit on. Also fuck nasu's alignment chart he's evil as fuck.

>Zerofags

>>133502413
The best story to come out of this franchise.

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>>133501641
Because Gilgamesh is a douche bag. Heaven's Feel is the best scenario.

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>>133502451
>secondaries

>>133502502
Trying too hard to fit in, plebbit.

>>133502451
I never really understood this. Zero never did anything for me. I thought it was an okay spin off, but just that.

Is it just people who started with it that get passionate about it?

>>133502502
Nigga please. Keep your haremshit, Fate/Zero had multiple sympathetic and interesting characters, and more exciting and varied fights than ANY of the routes.

>>133501641
>put thousands of year old king in the modern age
>let sit for 10 years to experience things
>???
his motivations changing make sense? The question is why would you think his character should remain stagnant after 10 years?

>>133502581
Pretty much, also people who can't get over high school age because they're "mature".

>>133502612
>multiple sympathetic and interesting characters

That's a matter of opinion, but there are plenty of sympathetic characters in FSN.

>and more exciting and varied fights than ANY of the routes

Okay now that's just bull. Zero's fights are pretty weak overall. Especially in the first half.

>>133502636
Nice strawman

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>>133502451

>>133502581
>poor narrative/structural choices that leaned into the show's weaknesses far more than its strengths
>le secondaries am I right guise UBW ftw

Come on, /a/, you can try a little bit harder with your bait.

>>133502612
>Varied fights
The fights in zero all felt the same really, compare with heaven's feel where every fight is completely different between the internal monologue into an attack against beserker, the buildup against Saber as Shirou slowly but surely whittles away her defenses in slh and finally to the tired defensive fight against Kotomine.

>>133502612
As someone who isn't biased to either side I felt F/SN focused more on Servant fights and Fate Zero it really boiled down to master fights.
Name one decent fight with masters in F/SN (Excluding Heaven's feel because Kotomine/Shirou were no longer masters) or a decent Servant battle in Zero.

>>133502788
I'm sorry, who are you quoting?

Seriously, I just never got the hype around Zero. I read FSN, then I tried Zero, and my thought process after it was, "well, that was kind of neat".

I feel like I'm missing something though, because people really like to put Zero up on a pedestal.

>>133501641
Cause Butcher actually bothered to flesh him out, whereas in Nasu uses him solely as a plot device cause he's a hack.

>>133501641
>Gilgamesh
>Noble
>Complex
>Villain

>>133502861
At least he went 1 for 4.

>>133502847
You're not.
So don't worry about it.

>>133502788
>UBW

Fate/Stay Night is ONE story, I know it's hard for 15 y/o Zerofags to understand that things don't work like they are used to but that's how F/SN works, 3 stories complementing themselves which lead to one of the most acclaimed VNs ever.

Fate/Zero is literally who?

>>133502855
No, he uses him as a foil for Shirou, not a plot device. Gil's F/SN characterization may be shallow and inconsistent but he still plays an important role in the story.

Nasu is a bit of a hack but that's unrelated.

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>>133502451

>He never saw the best Fate series

Nigga I have been a fatefag for almost a decade and I only saw 2 volumes of F/Strange fake so far and Im confident to say this is the best thing to come out of the Fate series.

>>133502612
The first half is a mess - tons of groundless exposition and rule-explaining, tons of battles that don't result in meaningful change, a lot of murky speeches by vaguely defined characters, and direction that does nothing to liven the talk-heavy atmosphere. The second half improves substantially - most of the remaining characters are filled out and given solid motivations, goals, and ideologies, Urobuchi's usual utilitarian questions gain greater prominence, and the narrative becomes much more focused.

UBW S2 is even worse, but let's not open that can of worms.

>>133502855
>butcher

Zerofags are hilarious, you do realize majority of F/Z was done by Nasu? Characters, situations, key moments.

Nasu gave F/Z to butcher because he was having a rough time, even then butcher called him every night to ask if he was doing it correctly.

>>133502805
Fate/Zero was designed around Kiritsugu kicking everybody's ass, because he really wanted that Holy Grail

>>133501641
Gil was beeing Gil in F/SN. Every action he takes is true to his self-dick sucker character. Also
>Gil
>Noble
>complex motivations
The dude just wants to fuck up everything and sit on top of whats left.

>>133501641
it's a medium so you can fap

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>>133502917
Why do you people keep posting the manga cover when talking about the LN?

>>133502931
>UBW S2 is even worse

I'm not sure where people see this drop in quality in the second half. It had the best episodes.

>>133502999
Seriously, I just never got the hype around UBW. I read FZ, then I tried UBW, and my thought process after it was, "well, that was kind of neat".

I feel like I'm missing something though, because people really like to put UBW S2 up on a pedestal.

>>133503020
Okay I know you're trying to be cute, but you did something wrong right from the start. You began with Zero. You don't do that.

>>133503020
>UBW >>133502897

Jesus is it that hard to understand?

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>>133501641
>>133502917

>Gilgamesh

>complex

Fate/strange Fake is all the proof you need on why Gilgamesh is the cancer of the Fate series. Since Goldy is one of the major characters and heavily focused it showed the whole world why focusing on Gilgamesh is a boring Idea. Goldy and his faggot friend Enkidu literally ruins fate/strange fake with their boring storyline.

This is why Heavens Feel is the best route. They took out Gilgamesh from the route instantly and prevented his faggotory from spreading

>>133503020
You are missing an entire routes' worth of characterization and buildup.

>>133503044
Getting into Fate/Zero without prior knowledge or acquaintance of F/SN and it's offshoots is the best way to experience it.

>>133503090
No, no it isn't, because Fate/Zero was created with the idea that you've an understanding FSN beforehand.

The opening parts of Zero casually spoil and talk about content from FSN like it's nothing, because you should know it.

>>133503090
Nice bait

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>>133501641

Gilgamesh gets eaten by a high school girl in Heavens Feel

Enjoy the spoiler you filthy secondary !

>>133503132
There's stuff in the VN that fleshes out certain things, but that's mostly in the last route, and playing through a 50+ hour VN to watch this is a bit much.

>>133502999
>ignoring the second half's pacing/structure

b8

>>133503191
If you're that strapped for time then just watch the first 2 routes and read Heavens feelio.

>>133503191
Zero's first episode literally opens up with showing that Ilya is Kerry's daughter, that Sakura is Rin's sister, and is being raped by worms, and that Saber is King Arthur.

Zero just does not give a single fuck about spoiling the source material. So yes, starting with it is a bad idea.

I mean even if you wanna just go anime only, starting with DEEN is an outright better idea.

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Good one OP

>>133503273
>Fate/stay night is all about le twists

Okay

>>133503252
>pacing
I have heard this criticism of every anime ever, what exactly is good or bad pacing, and how does it apply to UBW second half and not the first?

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>>133501641
>Gil
>Complex motivations
Fuck off you wanker, you can't even beat a japanese schoolboy

>>133503273
Maybe he's assuming that Zero is the only thing worth anything, so its okay to spoil everything.

That anon would be right.

>>133503252
The pacing and structure was about par for the course dude, or are we forgetting that the first half of UBW spent what was the equivalent of four episodes telling you about the first three days of the story?

I don't mind it. Fate as a franchise, and Ufotable's take on it, has always been a slow burn, and after the UBW movie, which was just too fucking fast for its own good. I liked that they took the time to chew the fat, but all together I didn't see a distinct difference with the pacing between seasons.

>>133503322
It's not all about the twists, but you're doing yourself a disservice by starting with the story that acts like you already are up to speed on everything.

>>133503322
>le

Oh I get it now, reddit is here. Of course I bet you're from /r/fsn or something where shitty MAL secondaries say it's better to start with Zero.

And yes, grand part of FSN is about the twists. Especially Heaven's Feel. Hell Saber being King Arthur is amazing, my cousin and I thought she was D'arc back then and when she used excalibur we started screaming like faggots.

>Hell Saber being King Arthur is amazing, my cousin and I thought she was D'arc back then and when she used excalibur we started screaming like faggots.

No upvotes to be found here, plebbit.

>>133503322
>Le

You're not even trying

>>133503441
>Doesn't even know how to reply
Well at least you tried I guess, thanks for the laugh fag.

>>133503273
I'm not really that invested in Shirou either - his feelings have been more told than felt.

>>133501641
Because he was doused in all the evils of the world at the end of F/Z. He claims he was unaffected by it, but it did twist him just enough to allow him to justify his evil means to a noble end in UBW.

Gil was always an amoral sociopathic hero who wanted to amuse himself. The extra 10 years just allowed him to plot amusement on a larger scale.

This is why he gets along with Kotomine. Both like blowing things up for shits and giggles. Both want to watch the world burn.

He was always on the path towards becoming an evil Disney Villain.

>>133503381
Sometimes I put two packets of sugar in my coffee instead of one. What's it to you?

>>133503343
All these fucking secondaries watching the Fate series for fun!? Disgusting. What the fuck has this place turned into?

>>133503090
NeoGAF.

>>133503191
NeoGAF.

>>133503490
Some guy's Ask.fm? Seriously?

Half this thread is some guy still posts from other places.

>>133503560
stealing*

>>133502931
This post too.

>>133502400
>Also fuck nasu's alignment chart he's evil as fuck.

Chaotic good described his alignment in the world he is from. Obviously the overton window shifted a shit ton since the days of Uruk.

>>133503518
Nothing, but if you come complaining, and you started out with the franchise in a way that's not recommended, no one's gonna give you any sympathy.

>>133503560
>>133503588
>tfw someone in this thread actually cares about post quality on 4chan

>>133503653
There's a difference between post quality, and plucking random posts from across the web like some weird bot.

>>133503625
>implies there is a correct experience

2/10, this bait is tiring.

>>133503695
Rule of thumb is to always start with the source material. That's just how it always is.

>>133503723
>implies there is a correct experience
>constantly reiterating that our experiences of media are tremendously complex and based in an interlocking web of the personal, cultural, and aesthetic

>>133503560
By all means, stop visiting.

>>133503257
I wish I actually watched F/SN instead of reading it.
People praise the VN, but everything and almost everyone in it had the depth of a potato and spends exposes the same thing 3 times or more. It was so lackluster.

>>133503749
You're right, you should start with carnival phantasm, six minutes into episode 8. There's no correct way to watch a show after all, so clearly that way will get you just as much benefit as any other.

>>133501641
UBW is shit.

>>133502917
Right order is

Strange Fake > Zero > Fragments

Fuck haremshit.

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>>133503861
Go to bed, Gil.

>>133503896
what'd you think of apocrypha?

>>133503855
I'm sure someone out there got into FSN after watching some random episode of Carnival Phantasm and enjoyed it so you're not wrong.

>>133503914

not him but oh god everything was ruined in the final volume. Worst Fate series finale ever

But saying that Apocrypha is what I expected the fate series from the start. Its storyline was average but the main focus are the servants and not the masters so if you just want to see servants fighting then is worth the read.

>>133503914
Apocrypha was interesting until random Homunculus became the MC and had an unnecessary romance with Jeanne D'Arc. You'll notice the series I choose aren't about romancing the Servant (even if Manaka tries and fails).

The writing also is a little subpar, it shows the writer was inexperienced. It's got good ideas, but sometimes failed in execution. Strange Fake is the best thing the franchise can offer: it balances most aspects and keeps a fresh assembled cast.

CCC would have been good without the tryhard haremshit. I forgot to rank Garden of Avalon, easily the best thing Nasu wrote.

>>133501641
>complex motivations
UR MY WAIFU SABR
OH NO FUK MAN
the end

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>>133501641
>Zerofags

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>>133504038

Fate Zero: Gil only wanted a worthy opponent. His actions are all an attempt to alleviate the boredom that comes from being too powerful.

This is why he loves Enkidu who was strong enough to challenge him. And he went crazy for Saber's strong woman who don't need no man.

He wants a challenge.

UBW: Gil behaves like some cartoony villain who does a cliche try destroy the world and then loses by falling into a big black hole screaming pathetically.

ZeroGil was better written

>>133504099
Even Nasu admits he fucks up Gil. He tried to make up for it in CCC but he comes across as cartoony at times, like in FHA. He just sucks in writing kings.

>>133504099
UBW Gil's motivations lie in having spent 10 years living in a decedent society filled with NEETS and Hikikomoris who add nothing to the world. He saw that humanity was growing weaker, and more pathetic. Heroes like the ones from his era were long gone.

He wanted to bring that back. To have a world where every person is strong, and capable, and needed.

When will Nasu write a second Fate trilogy?

>>133503896
Fragments is really good. I've been reading the releases and it's far better than FSN. Less muh waifu and faux 2deep "ideals" circlejerk wank of self-importance, more actual 'heroic spirits with issues fight each other' feel. I care more about Heroic Spirit ISIS than Shero.

I haven't read Fate Zero or Strange Fake to compare. I only played the VN because /a/ was telling me it's good and it's really a boring, badly paced mess with some interesting ideas that are better executed by other authors.

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>>133504177
Keep in mind though that Gil wasn't the primary antagonist in UBW, that was Archer. What Gil's purpose, ultimately, was to provide a foil for Shirou.

Gil wants to commit mass genocide. Shirou wants to save people. On that level, it seems simple enough, but there are some solid parallels that work with the themes at hand.

Gilgamesh is the King of Heroes, and his powers have him owning the original of every weapon you could image. Shirou is an imitation hero, his power is to make copies.

The entire theme of UBW is questioning whether or not something that's imitated is worthwhile, or can even be better than what originally was. Shirou's fight with Gil was just a culmination of everything before it. Shirou's answer, Shirou's struggles, it all just leads up to him proving in a tangible way that Shirou is capable of putting his money where his mouth is.

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>>133504097
Post full version anon

What are the chances that Dark Horse will license Heaven's Feel?

http://www.darkhorse.com/Blog/2125/dark-horse-set-release-fatezero-manga

>>133506104
Not edgy enough.

>>133506104
Not for a very long time. The HF manga is like, what? 6 chapters in?

>>133506153
Can you see it happening in a few years when there's enough volumes to localize?

>>133502617
How did he go from interesting character to batshit insane in just 10 years?

>>133501641
I really hate Zero only because it set up Gilgamesh to be some noble 'better than thou' character without showing his true personality (being a total bitch), which is thoroughly explored in all Fate/Stay Night routes, so people think Gilgamesh being a huge dumbass is a thing F/SN invented and that it's a sequel to Zero, which infuriates me.

>>133502824
>Name one decent fight with masters in F/SN
I won't because you're right, there are very few especially if you're going to exclude fights between humans just because they don't have servants anymore.
Servants do the fighting because they're far more physically able, and Rin and Shirou are highschool students.
Shirou and Punch-Sensei fight a couple of times, both times were cut quite short in the anime adaptations but in general they know they're outmatched or there's simply no point to picking fights with the Masters as a Master.

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Are Gil fags as bad as Sephiroth fanboys now?
Every other thread is about sucking his cock for how "super strong and amazing" he is.

I admit, I find him amusing and I like him, but the raving fanboys bitch about him losing. He's the antagonist, of course he's going to get rightfully slapped. Get over it.

>>133502824
What's wrong with Zero fights? They were generally quality.

The only fight that reached the seriousness of Zero fights in FSN was Archer vs Lancer Rounds 1 and 2. The rest were all Shounen power level and asspull fights.

>>133508967
He should have gotten slapped, but not by some ginger who only just learnt to fight 2 weeks ago.

At least in Fate route losing to King Arthur made sense, but Shirou in UBW made it look like severe asspull.

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>>133503082
Gilgamesh is definitely a more interesting character the less he's focused on.
I enjoy him when he's not tiring me out with his asshole-ishness.

Enkidu should have looked like this.

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>>133509047
>He should have gotten slapped, but not by some ginger who only just learnt to fight 2 weeks ago.
Oh boy here we go ignoring the entire UBW route's explanation to why he can overcome Gilgamesh.
>made it look like severe asspull.
Only if you're an uneducated cunt who hates reading anything, but now that the anime got re-adapted and explained things so minutely you have no excuse to be this ignorant.

Whine and obsess all you want, there was very good build up to the fight and it was handled excellently.

>>133509047
Gilgamesh's power was, from the very start, written to be countered by Shirou's. Zero babies act like this was all written chronologically and Gil was ever meant to be some grandiose supreme character only allowed to be bested by equally larger-than-life showoffs.

Yeah, no. Gil was written as a foil to both Saber and Shirou, which is why he's quickly written out in the route that doesn't focus heavily in being a character study for either. The whole theme to his character was always meant to clash with Shirou's and fall.

You're acting like it was somehow fucking coincidence that the story had a main character with a power that could counter his, when that's exactly fucking backwards. Shirou is the important one, Gilgamesh was written as a character his powers would be ideal against. Just accept that already instead of whining about your precious snowflake who got over-wanked in Zero simply because there was not much for him to do there save chill and prattle ominously, which children seem to confuse with depth.

>>133503334
Not him, but the thing about pacing, from my experience, is when it's good you don't notice it, when it's bad you do.

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Who cares about all this discussions about motives and narrative structure. Why did Gilgamesh have a spaceship?

>>133509406
Because GoB. He's got a in universe reason to pull anything out of his ass for any situation.

>>133508928
>both times were cut quite short in the anime adaptations

Did the anime cut the fight shorts? If anything I remember the first fight with Kuzuki feeling elongated.

>>133509432
Then why didn't he just shoot shirou?

>>133509508
In the VN he never pulled out any wacky shit like ships or infinite goblets of wine, just some swords and a chain. He only got wanked with that shit later.

>>133509571
Well even then he was said to have pretty much every noble phantasm their was just no point to really show it off.

>>133509507
The first fight was almost spot on but they decided to make the first vs. swords exchange coverd in flashy lights, sparks and magic beams so you don't even see anything happen.
It's been a while since I've read the visual novel and the laptop I had it on died entirely and I can't recover it to check, but I'm sure at least there was a descriptive exchange.

Sad that they didn't go more into the fight with Shirou and Kuzuki the second time. Those two just watched their women beat eachother up like understandably aroused men.

>>133509508
Gil was having fun fucking with him.
Shirou's tenacity is fun to admire, and he has a habit of creeping his power level up to his opponents (Archer made note of it, and also got a lot of his abilities and techniques copied. I don't doubt his muscle memory is now close to Archer's.)

Am I fucking stupid animeonlyfag or does the fate universe have no rules?
>inb4 that's the point

>>133509047
if gill used ea straight away he could have destroyed uwb and made shirou useless but he was too arrogant and lost.

>>133501641
Secondaryfags

>>133509655
>or does the fate universe have no rules?
You're not paying attention is all.
What do you mean, in context? I'll still say you're wrong anyway because Nasu spends paragraphs upon paragraphs in the VN explaining the rules of magic, how Shirou's projection works, reality marbles, and even rituals of summoning but that would take far too much time in the anime to adapt.

>>133509655
You're not wrong, it'll throw in your face something is set in stone just to introduce the exception at the last minute.

What do you mean by complex motives?

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Fate/stay night [Unlimited Blade Works] Deluxe Booklet I

http://pastebin.com/8zPfKaNd

Fate/stay night [Unlimited Blade Works] Staff Message Book

http://imgur.com/a/KuVHW

>>133509684
There are exceptions to everything.
Nasu just likes to show off exceptions to everything to how how unique and amazing they are. He uses it repeatedly, and should have toned it down though.

>>133502502
>Heaven's Feel
I agree that there are better than UBW but I don't consider HF to be one of them.

>>133509736
>http://imgur.com/a/KuVHW

Shit, there's stuff there that wasn't in an earlier upload.

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>>133501641
Faker.

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>>133509736
I feel like someone at Ufotable watched Adventure Time.

>>133503082
>HF
>Best

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>>133503090

>>133503896
Carnival Phantasm > All

>>133509954
Google that post.

It's something someone said on NeoGAF in 2011.

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What if I like F/Z and FSN equally?

>>133509997
Okay, stalker detective guy.

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>>133509999
Will the poetry ever cease?

>>133510027
Don't paint me as the weird one. Who the fuck mines half a decade old forum posts for statements that amount to a sentence?

>>133510082
>Don't paint me as the weird one
>admits to stalking

>>133510113
Stop taking the bait. He always spams threads with copypastas and has to announce it to everybody, like anyone gives a shit.

>>133510147
I'm not the one fucking doing it dude, I just see someone else doing it, and find it weird.

It's not hard to just google weirdly disjointed posts and find out it's from some obscure forum from years ago.

>>133510172
You're a troll or a handicapped. Either way I'm not taking the bait.

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>>133510056
The sheer amount of parallels Ufotable poured into Zero and UBW are amazing.
The two should be viewed together, not separately.
We should not be quarreling because together it's a masterpiece.

>>133510198
I'm a troll? I call someone out on copying posts like a weird data mining bot, and you think I'm the screwy one here?

>>133509999
-- When Shirou is taken in by Kiritsugu Emiya in #01, and there is speculation that the scene where he is thinking with his arms crossed and one eye closed is a callback to the second in Fate/Zero episode 02 where Illya is talking to Kiritsugu with her arms cross and one eye closed. Are things like that something that you obsess over, Mr. Miura?

Miura: Ah, some people noticed that, huh? I'm constantly doing stuff like that.

Kondo: So that piece of speculation was right, then.

Miura: I suppose it is. Another one is the scene in #06 where Taiga is holding an orange. There's a scene in a different route where Taiga is eating an orange, so I used it as a prop that inherits that image.

Kondo: Oh, so that's what that was. As far as ufotable shows go, I think there are some people who have seen a common thread linking everything from the Garden of sinners onwards. It feels like oranges and coffee have been like ufotable' ssymbol ever since Futakoi Alternative.

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>>133510253
Let's not forget stuff like them moving the scene in episode 16 to the sex church.

>>133510245
How about we don't talk about your issues because this isn't your blog.

>>133510297
They didn't talk about it because they just finished up the first half.

>>133510305
Man whatever. This guy posts inflammatory shit about Zero and UBW using posts from years ago from a bunch of different forums, and it works. People take the bait. But suddenly it's stupid to call him out on it.

I think you're him.

>can't even talk about UBW without some stalker shitting up the thread

Christ what happened to /a/

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>>133509736
Whoa, okay, this one's a little deviantart.

#10: The Fifth Contractor Blondie walked away with the episode

Kondo: The Kuzuki battle was the biggest challenge in Unlimited Blade Works. I was personally finding it hard to swallow the plot twist of a human defeating a Heroic Spirit. As a result, we added the explanation that Caster was imbuing Kuzuki with the life force she had been siphoning from the residents of Fuyuki.

Miura: Originally, we were showing that as his fists being strengthened with mana, but Mr. Nasu requested that we have mana flowing through his entire body. A mana filer (effect) is applied to all of Kuzuki's movements. The staffers took to calling it "Time Alter." (laughs) My plan was to show Shirou as a hero in this episode, but, well...

Kondo: But a certain blond Servant walked away with the episode, didn't he?

Miura: As Mr. Nasu would write, "Shinji is as inconsequential as air to the blond Servant." He doesn't even bat an eye at Shinji's overly-familiar attitude.

>>133510563
>Kondo: But a certain blond Servant walked away with the episode, didn't he?

I remembered episode 10 was the Kuzuki fight, but it completely slipped my mind that there was a Gil scene in that one too.

I want to hear the story where Miura, Nasu and Kondo talk about how they adapt Shirou and Archer's battle.

>>133502917
strange fake is only going to get better and better and i wish i could read moonies to own the books

>>133502400
He really isn't.


His ultimate goal is Good - he wants humanity to realize its full potential, to leave behind Earth and journey beyond the stars as a united people. He wants to see us conquer the universe and be our own master - no Gods or Demons to command us.

He just uses harsh methods to accomish that goal because he's a big believer that individuals hold little value compared to the whole, hence him being Chaotic.

Plus he was corrupted by UBW.

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Rin as a Christmas Cake.

>>133511092
I want that plate

>>133502612
Zero is the only harem.

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Heaven's "CGI" Feel

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>>133502400
>He was still a threat in UBW, now HF that's where he got shit on

Dark Sakura is one of the most powerful beings in the Nasuverse. It's more believable for him to be beaten by a being with access to nigh infinite power and bullshit regen (literally ripped her heart out like it was nothing after shrugging off being turned into a pin cushion), who posed an imminent threat to the world and who was possessed by the Zoroastrianism devil, than by a 17 year old who was a shit magus a week prior.

>tfw Ufo are going to rush the Heaven's Feel route to make it fit a few movies.

Still mad that they stretched UBW as thin as it could go with 25 episodes (some of which were over an hour long) whilst HF is going to be a hackjob despite being the longest and most interesting route. Guess that's what happens when there's a route with no Seibah and Gil to make the casuals happy.

>>133511085
Sounds like Hitler trying to make Lebensraum for his chosen ones man.

>>133512466
>implying
Casuals are going to love HF for it's overly dark moments, it basically has the exact same tone as F/Z. Secondaries won't even realize that the entire story is basically going against how everything was handled in F/Z and only see similarities because of that.

UBW is the harder show to sell to casuals because it's very dependant on inner monologues to not come across as just a story of a guy who asspulls his way through everything.

>>133501641
Did you even watch Zero?

>>133512466
HF wouldn't work as a TV series. Too much censorship, and frankly, Zero's existence fucked things up. HF would spend its entire run of episodes building up to secrets and twists that were casually talked about in Zero.

Honestly I think this is partially why UBW was picked. Zero spoiled it the least.

>>133503082
>hates strange/fake
>is a wormslutfag
of course, you shitters hate everyone who isn't your super special snowflake useless bitch whos entire existence is to ruin everything she touches.

>>133513446
Like most well-written characters, Gilgamesh only seems simple. Underneath are complex motivations and character development.

But this was discarded in Fate Stay Night so that the Shounen MC could show off.

>>133511501
>Dark Sakura is one of the most powerful beings in the Nasuverse

STOP IT.

>>133513938
Read the VN.

>>133513938
>discarded
F/sn is the original source material, there is literally nothing to discard. F/Z is just deliberately only showing off certain parts of him without displaying how shit he actually is.

>>133511501

>Dark Sakura is one of the most powerful beings in the Nasuverse

She has an inherent advantage against servants (but could still lose to them) exclusively and not much beyond that.

A question.
F/SN is a vn with partial anime adaptations (and manga ones)
F/Z is a LN with an anime adaptation.

Besides games and LNs, are there any side materials with anime or manga that fully cover them?
The one focusing on Ilya is an anime , are there any others that are in LN form fully covered by a manga/anime adaptation?

>>133511085
By that logic Hitler would be chaotic good in Nasuverse.
Oh god Hitler is chaotic good in Nasuverse isn't he?

>>133514563
Apocrypha

Hollow Ataraxia is a VN sequel

>>133514563
Fate/Strange Fake is getting a concurrent manga adaptation along with its LN adaptation.

Fate/Extra (the PSP game) got a manga adaptation, but I hear it wasn't very good. Fate/Extra CCC (the sequel) also got a manga adaptation, but just to confuse people further, it branched away from the story of the game, so it's more its own thing.

>>133514597
Apocrypha has a manga/anime??

>>133514597
I know about Ataraxia, but I'm waiting for beast lair's voice patch, no reason to bother playing it otherwise.

>>133514563
Fate/Extra has a manga adaptation

>VN explains in depth how Shirou won against Gilgamesh in UBW with multiple justifications
>anime completely discards all these reasons and has him win solely because Gilgamesh had a moment of doubt when pulling out Ea
Why is this allowed?

>>133514646
I don't even like the UBW anime but Shirou explicitly states why he wins. Still didn't make sense that he can suddenly fly and surfboard though.

>>133514646
>VN explains in depth how Shirou won against Gilgamesh in UBW

Oh don't lie. I've played the VN, and while I like the fight, it does not go into the nitty gritty explaining how Shirou was able to take on a servant with B rank strength.

>>133514696
>Still didn't make sense that he can suddenly fly and surfboard though

Because no matter how you slice it, Shirou is superhuman by the end of UBW.

>>133514696
Shirou explains why Gilgamesh can't instagib him. He doesn't elaborate on why it gives him a decisive advantage instead of merely leveling the playing field.

>>133514741
He was superhuman from the very start. Reinforcement is a thing.

>>133514719
>Oh don't lie. I've played the VN, and while I like the fight, it does not go into the nitty gritty explaining how Shirou was able to take on a servant with B rank strength.
That's because it already explained that in the Fate route.

>>133514741
No he isn't.

>>133514777
Yeah, yeah he is. In the VN, he's taking on a guy who is 40 times stronger than a human, and 30 times faster.

Shirou was superhuman at that point in the VN.

>>133514646
You what?
That "moment of doubt" was just showing the audience how much damage the act did to his ego, it didn't actually "hinder" him because he was fucked regardless.

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>>133514775
Yeah, their "explanation" amounted to a few sentences. There is no intricate guide to how Shirou's powers work in terms of boosting him.

The basic gist is that he's Mega Man, but it sure could have been elaborated upon more.

>>133501641
Urobutcher is a far better writer than Nasu

>>133502475
I can't wait for the anime adaptation to come out and for all the ensuing backpedaling from the vnfags to occur when anyone with enough taste not to bother reading that trash sees how fucking bad it is too.

>>133514596
>>133513026
Except Gilgamesh didn't divide humanity upon any kind of ethnic, religious, or cultural lines.

He values literally all of it equally - at worst he may see those born too disabled to function as an individual as a pointless waste of resources, but even then, given his boner for man helping his fellow man in CCC, he may also be fine with it.

He's not malicious towards manking outside of SN where he's been left essentially broken, he's just looking at it from the perspective of someone who is trying to cultivate its future going forward for thousands of years rather than simply looking at the present - one who values the good of the species rather than the good of individuals, with the exception of one or two truly incredible people he's met such as Enkidu, Saber, and his master in CCC.

He's greedy, prideful, inconsiderate towards those he deems unimportant, quick to anger, mysogynistic, but he does genuinely love humanity and wants to lead as much of it as possible to a golden era.

Its only in SN where he goes full-on genocidal with his plans.

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>>133514743
>Show Shirou's blade (Already in the open and pre-loaded) take out Gil's weapons before he could release them from GoB.

What more is needed to be said there? That's the distinct advantage Shirou has over Gil.

>>133514696
>VN
>Shirou forces Gilgamesh into melee
>UBW is slightly faster at re-arming him every time their weapons break than GoB is at re-arming Gilgamesh
>Shirou slowly pushes Gilgamesh onto the defensive with this advantage
>he finally breaks through Gilgamesh's guard, upon which Gilgamesh finally realizes he needs to get serious and tries pulling out Ea, but by then it's already too late and Shirou lops off his arm

>anime
>Shirou can't force Gilgamesh into melee, he tries to do so once and Gilgamesh fends him away with GoB
>UBW isn't stated at anytime to be faster than GoB, in fact Shirou is clearly fighting an uphill battle against it since he has to constantly jump around and defend himself manually to survive while Gilgamesh is standing in a single spot for nearly the entire battle and fending off UBW's attacks without lifting a finger while attacking Shirou at the same time. The only time he's forced to pick up a sword himself is when Shirou actually gets up close and personal in his face, but as stated above, he manages to quickly repel him anyways
>Shirou never outright breaks Gilgamesh's defenses, it's actually reverse in the final moments of the battle where he's actually nearly completely defenseless and in free-fall while Gilgamesh is still in the same spot he was for the entire battle, the only reason why he doesn't die at this point is because of his metric ton of plot armor prevents Gilgamesh from hitting him a single time after Rho Aias breaks despite falling down in a straight line right towards Gil
>Gilgamesh courteously stops firing GoB at him when he decides to pull out Ea for whatever fucking reason too which is why Shirou has a clear shot at him in the first place

tl;dr in the VN Shirou manages to break Gil's defense which allows him to lop off his arm. In the anime he only manages to lop it off because of a miracle.

>>133514965
>Except Gilgamesh didn't divide humanity upon any kind of ethnic, religious, or cultural lines.
Because being a social darwinist is totally so much better.

>>133515020
A lot of this seems kind of like nitpicking dude.

I still outright prefer the anime version, because it made better use of what makes the Shirou vs Gil fight interesting: UBW vs GoB.

In the VN, there's absolutely nothing there. It's just a melee fight, like you said. Which is just uninteresting.

>>133515010
>Show Shirou's blade (Already in the open and pre-loaded) take out Gil's weapons before he could release them from GoB.
This is literally the only time he's ever successful at doing this in the anime. After the battle begins in earnest he's unable to completely take out Gil's weapons before he can release them since there's clearly still a shitton of golden projectiles hurtling towards him. There's a huge difference between the Gate at minimum and maximum output.

>>133515076
He's only a social darwinist in SN.

In every other work he has no genocidal tendencies and at worst wants to kill those he sees as his enemies, threats to mankind itself, or as villainous scum which only bring down the species through their immoral actions.

I'm not saying I agree with his methods or world view, I'm just trying to explain why he's still listed as 'Good' for the series.

>>133515010
>>133515010
>What more is needed to be said there? That's the distinct advantage Shirou has over Gil.

Except that goes right out the window because for the rest of their fight Gilgamesh's blades are able to shoot across massive distances before Shirou intercepts them, while he simultaneosly is forced to resort to dodging and using melee attacks to deflect those that get past his own swordspam.

Shirou should have been butchered in the anime, his victory was ridiculous even compared to the VN.

>>133515124
Isn't it assumed that there's crazy swordspamming going on around Shirou and Gil in the VN and they just happen to be melee fighting in the middle of it?

>>133515206
I always thought that was the case too.

>>133515166
There are several direct shots of Shirou destroying the gates before they can launch stuff out afterward, with an extended shot of Shirou literally just standing on his knees, eyes closed, as his swords do his work for him.

I think part of this comes down to though whether or not you want an interesting and visually fun fight.

Do you know what's not fun? Shirou just completely and utterly dominating Gil and even allowing him the chance to launch weapons.

>>133515206
It's up to interpretation. I always believed so, put others rationalise that because the text doesn't outright mention it, the sword noises are just Shirou and Gilgamesh's melee clashes.

>>133515206
That's not even an assumption, that's exactly what happens.

The two are surrounded by a barrage as they spam swords as hard as they can the for the entire fight - Shirou even specifically mentions that he has to stay in melee range constantly because the onslaught is so closely surrounding them that backing off any further than a few feet would put him in the middle of it.

>>133515235
>Do you know what's not fun? Shirou just completely and utterly dominating Gil and even allowing him the chance to launch weapons.

Did you even read the VN?

>>133515206
>>133515223
See that's something you think is assumed, but go through the scene. There's nothing there to imply it. No dialog, not imagery, no description.

Like you know the DEEN version of the fight? It's not that wrong. Shirou and Gil pull swords out at each other and just duke it out until one wins.

>>133501641
Gil isn't a villain, he was just being a king.

>>133515267
>There's nothing to imply it
>didn't read the VN

I think the problem with the anime is that it actually made UBW extremely underpowered and to make up for that made Shirou physically overpowered.

There's not enough sword against sword action and too much Shirou flying through the air like fucking Superman and deflecting swords like fucking Lancelot.

>>133515258
>Shirou even specifically mentions that he has to stay in melee range constantly because the onslaught is so closely surrounding them that backing off any further than a few feet would put him in the middle of it.

Can you point me to this dialog, please?

And yes, I have played the VN. To my memory, there is no explicit talk of swords flying around.

>>133515292
Please, point me to where the sword spamming stuff is talked about.

I'm not trying to be condescending, it's something that I felt was oddly absent from the scene.

>>133515306
>deflecting swords like fucking Lancelot

I liked that though. There were several scenes built up that showed Shirou getting better and stronger at deflecting swords. One in 18, one in 21, and finally in 24, he's at his best and strongest.

>>133515235
>Do you know what's not fun? Shirou just completely and utterly dominating Gil and even allowing him the chance to launch weapons.
He doesn't have to completely and utterly dominate Gil, just match him evenly. A situation where both of them are furiously blasting each other with swords while taking swings at each other, but none of the swords can land a decisive hit because they're constantly crashing against each other.

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>>133515309
>>133515328
I mean like, even the CGs didn't have swords flying.

>>133515258
>>133515309
It is not in the narrative, but the sound effects (particularly in Realta Nua ver) are the ones used exclusively for Gate of Babylon's firing.
(The distinctive CHOOM CHOOM CHOOM CHOOM soundbite.)

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>>133515309
What this anon said about the SFX is true >>133515419


Also pic related, though I probably missed some more stuff since I just skimmed

>>133515419
Oh boy. Yeah, I think I've had this conversation before.

I'm just gonna lay it down, if that is true, then that's just simply bad writing. There's no descriptions selling me the visuals of that, there's no outright visuals telling me that's going on, I would have to rely solely on just an assumption of a sound effect.

No, that's just terrible. What if someone didn't have the sound on? Or were actually outright deaf?

>>133515461
Okay well that infograph, regardless of anything in it, is extremely telling of something.

We have to do a fucking CSI-tier enhance just to get a basic scene description.

>>133515020
>in the final moments of the battle where he's actually nearly completely defenseless and in free-fall while Gilgamesh is still in the same spot he was for the entire battle, the only reason why he doesn't die at this point is because of his metric ton of plot armor prevents Gilgamesh from hitting him a single time after Rho Aias breaks despite falling down in a straight line right towards Gil
This honestly bothered me the most while watching it, at this point Shirou wasn't even deflecting Gilgamesh's attacks anymore but none of them hit him anyways.

And I'd like to point out that while you're falling you have zero control over your trajectory so he couldn't have dodged either but that's too much physics autism for an anime fight.

>>133515515
Its a short fight with minimal description of anything besides the dialogue, but its still very clear based on what we are told what's going on.

Don't blame the game for you forgetting/not paying attention at the time.

>>133515517
Definitely. Even something as minor as some blue flashes to show that UBW's swords are still deflecting GOB would have helped sell that fall more.

Did none of you retards pick up on the fact that the final fight in UBW was a psychological one just like Shirou vs. Archer was?

We all know that Shirou could never beat a serious Gilgamesh. He beat him because he took advantage of Gilgamesh's personality flaws. Gilgamesh didn't take him seriously and on top of that Shirou made him furious enough to become even more careless which left him vulnerable.

The anime depicted this fine.

>>133515570
Oh, it's very clear?

The only clear thing that graph adds to present the argument that swords are flying is the actual CG of the swords, everything else past the start of the fight is up to interpretation.

I mean I will point you to this. >>133515407

An actual CG drawn by Takeuchi that gives no indication of what you're talking about, and yet we're supposed to have this grandiose visual in our heads of swords flying around?

>>133502991
Lionheart best Saber

>>133515648
>Trusting Takeuchi

>>133515576
>Definitely. Even something as minor as some blue flashes to show that UBW's swords are still deflecting GOB would have helped sell that fall more.
This would've been really fucking hype actually.

Shirou just completely unleashing UBW's full capacity at the final moment to wreck Gil's gate and clearing the way for his final strike.

>>133515648
That's because Takeuchi has no idea what the fuck he's doing and Koyama has to clean up his mess.

>>133515739
I would love to trust Nasu even, but people are kidding themselves if they think that scene was in anyway "clear" about what was going on.

It's a mess of looking for little things just to get hints of a description, and even then half the time there can be multiple interpretations. "My body and mind will fail if I stop. That's why I will keep moving forward." That's supposed to be an indication of Shirou having to keep up with the sword spam? I would think it would make more sense with him trying to keep up with this high powered servant who was trying to murder him.

>>133515635
>Serious Gilgamesh could have won!!!
Okay
>Therefore it was a psychological battle With Shirou masterfully exploiting his personaloty
No.

Shirou went for a direct confrontation because it was the only chance he had, he did nothing to influence or exploit Gilgamesh's actions

He was just lucky Gilgamesh didn't deploy EA before he could close the distance.

>The anime depicted this fine.

No it didn't.

>>133515811
Likewise with, "I crash my swords against the appearing Noble Phantasms." That doesn't 100% paint the picture of sword flying either. Shirou and Gil were fighting physically with multiple Noble Phantasms.

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>>133501641
>the crime against humanity that is Zero being better than the flawless masterpiece that is F/SN in any way
Gas all secondaries.

>>133501641
Gilgamesh didn't have any motivation for anything in F/Z until the end of the story where he decides to make Saber his wife. It completely baffles me how people can say Gil is better written in F/Z than FSN when his character is exactly the same, an arrogant prick who thinks he owns everything, but in F/Z he just spends all his time sitting in a basement drinking wine, talking about the same stuff he did with Kirei in HF or jobbing to Lancelot. The only thing F/Z did well with him is show why he fell in love with Saber and what it looks like when he meets someone he respects, but it came at the cost of him actually having any real goal or purpose as a character.

>>133515811
>I would think it would make more sense with him trying to keep up with this high powered servant who was trying to murder him.

Except if you had actually read the VN you'd know that comes right after Shirou describing how he's already got Gilgamesh on the defensive and mentioning that he has the advantage in a melee fight

Seriously, stop pretending you know jackshit about the scene. You don't.

>>133515849
>That doesn't 100% paint the picture of sword flying either.

It does in the context of the scene.

>Shirou and Gil were fighting physically with multiple Noble Phantasms.

Nobody is denying that.

>>133515898
And there's literally zero justification in UBW for why he decides to conveniently ignore Saber for the entirety the route in favor of sperging out about fakers.

>>133515900
>Except if you had actually read the VN you'd know that comes right after Shirou describing how he's already got Gilgamesh on the defensive and mentioning that he has the advantage in a melee fight

Okay buddy, and that still doesn't describe a scene of Shirou needing to keep up because otherwise he'd be torn to bits by sword spam.

You seem very arrogant in that your assumptions are right, but even if they are, my point is still proven. This scene is vague and full of unclear writing.

>>133501641
King of the manchildren.

>>133502847
>because people really like to put Zero up on a pedestal.

Nah, it's because idiots lose their all shit when they are told Butcher, for all his edginess and suffering and whatever, is a better writer than Nasu

>>133515982
>but even if they are, my point is still proven.
>"even if you were right that I'm wrong, I'd still be correct."

Alright, I see there's no point arguing with you.


You have no grasp of even basic logic.

>>133515929
>It does in the context of the scene.

No, no it doesn't my friend. It's clearly up for interpretation. Hell, we have an adaptation that exists /right now/ that doesn't have a single sword flying around at all. The DEEN version of the fight is not 100% incorrect.

>Faggots/Cookingpriest brigade are still bitching about the Shirou vs Gil fight because of small nitpicks the anime still displays properly anyway
Holy shit, who cares? It's the most viewed Fate fight in the shortest amount of time on you tube for a reason.

I still remember the live watch thread where everyone was going "Fuck yeah, Ufotable is getting this fight perfectly!" Even Neogaf was talking about how awesome it was.

>>133516013
Yeah, because the point I'm making is that the VN version of the scene lacks in description, and is overall too vague.

We have people in this thread who talk about how there was sword spam because they heard a sound effect, another person had to set up an infograph using slivers of dialog (that still could be interpreted multiple ways!) to try and prove their point on what was essentially just a simple scene description.

>>133516028
>neogaf
>>>/v/ is that way, kid.

>>133515944
Except it does explain why he didn't get around to meeting Saber when they first meet. The fact that he took action earlier in UBW resulted in him not getting around to going to meet her.

>>133516081
Not that guy, but posts from NeoGAF were spammed in this thread during UBW's airing. That had a weird hateboner for it.

>>133515944
Gil took action in Fate when he saw what was his (Saber) being taken from him by Shirou.

In UBW, Gil took action when he saw what was his (his entire arsenal of weapons and noble phantasms) being taken from him by Shirou.

Now which would piss you off more, one thing being taken from you, or countless things?

>>133516023
>No, no it doesn't my friend. It's clearly up for interpretation.

Anon the fact you're too fucking stupid to understand a very clearly explained scene doesn't mean that its open to interpretation.

If I went and claimed the theory of evolution is incorrect it doesn't suddenly mean its up for debate again, it means I have to somehow fucking prove my point. Which you have REPEATEDLY failed to do.

>Hell, we have an adaptation that exists /right now/ that doesn't have a single sword flying around at all.

Yes, and? It altered every fight in the route after the prologue to a large extent, and the Gilgamesh one is entirely different from the very beginning - and you're still fucking wrong anyway because all versions of the fight feature some degree of sword spam.

>>133516075
>We have people in this thread who talk about how there was sword spam because they heard a sound effect, another person had to set up an infograph using slivers of dialog (that still could be interpreted multiple ways!) to try and prove their point on what was essentially just a simple scene description.

Because you and you alone are too fucking dense to understand it and have repeatedly demanded evidence that is clearly present in the text and SFX of the VN - you can't use that as a fucking example of the description being open to interpretation.

Holy shit, that's like saying the fact a prosecutor needs to provide evidence in a court case is a clear sign they're incorrect just because its not self-evident to the defence that they're guilty.

You have no fucking clue how debate or basic logic work.

>>133516156
I like the part in this post where you say I have no idea how to debate, and yet multiple times you resort to calling me a fucking idiot. That's fun.

See the point I'm arguing is very simple. I am saying that the scene lacked description and didn't properly set the scene. I don't even have to say anything when you are literally using sound effects- let me repeat that, sounds, as a means of saying the scene was properly described.

I mean come on dude.

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>>133515648
Its funny how when I first read the VN that the swords came out of the ground to fight. Pic related even says 'Group of swords begin their match'.'

Despite the lack of explicit evidence, many readers came away with the impression that the swords flew.

>>133516234
>I like the part in this post where you say I have no idea how to debate, and yet multiple times you resort to calling me a fucking idiot. That's fun.

Anon you're the one who resorted to illogical, poorly justified arguments first while maintaining a tone of smug, self-assured victory while declaring everyone who argued against you to be incorrect without demonstrating any notable evidence to prove as such..

While me using ad hominen to attack you isn't exactly good debating etiquette don't try to pretend you're not the one who set the standard for what this discussion was going to be.

>See the point I'm arguing is very simple. I am saying that the scene lacked description and didn't properly set the scene. I don't even have to say anything when you are literally using sound effects- let me repeat that, sounds, as a means of saying the scene was properly described.

So you're saying that AUDIO descriptions of an AUDIOVISUAL medium do not count?

Audio cues are key to any VN which features them and you trying to act like they're somehow invalid just further proves the fact you're a fucking retard with no idea what you're talking about.

>>133516322
>Anon you're the one who resorted to illogical, poorly justified arguments first

Not sure where any of my arguments were "illogical or poorly" justified, I've only been saying what I've been saying since the beginning. Having to rely on a sound effect to set the scene of a grandiose final battle is ridiculous, and is outright contrary to the actual visuals drawn for the scene.

>So you're saying that AUDIO descriptions of an AUDIOVISUAL medium do not count?

No, but the amount of stretching here to say that this makes up for a good scene description is hilarious. We have multiple original CGs drawn by Takeuchi (there's your VISUAL component for you!) that gives no indication that there's sword spam, there's no paragraph long description of sword flying around, there's no nothing like that, but you tell me it's all gravy cause of a sound effect.

I mean, what, dude? I like Nasu, but sometimes he stumbles. I don't think he handled the scene very well. There are multiple bits in the story that I thought he could have handled better, but I just find this one funny cause, you know, SOUND EFFECTS.

>>133516410
And you know what, even if we say sound effects are okay in this instance, what if someone had the game muted? What if someone was deaf? You telling me there aren't any deaf Fate fans?

I mean if you seriously rely on a sound effect this heavily, you're either going real fucking artsy fartsy, or you might have been a little light on filling things up in other categories. I'm going with the latter in Nasu's case here.

>any thread about Gilgamesh inevitably devolves into circlejerking about the Gilgamesh vs. Shirou fight
At least we're not arguing about whether Achilles can handle Gilgamesh by himself or something.

>>133515880
That's a new one. It's quality makes me hesitate before placing it in my bait folder though.

The need to merchandise him by making him popular on the sales charts drew his soul out post-2000 anime style.

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335KB, 683x900px

Gilfags btfo