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Was Zouken a well-executed villain?

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Was Zouken a well-executed villain?
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What do you think?
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>>122005362
I think he is a terribly executed character. He's the only character in FSN I completely dislike. And thing is, the parts of his character you do mention are good. The idea that he started off with a noble wish that got twisted so wrongly, is a good idea. BUT the problem with it for me is, it's all shoehorned into his final scene in HF. For the entirety of the route, he literally is just a generic "I don't want to die because death is the worst" villain. He's basically Anime Voldemort. Even worse, he's in Zero, and Zero doesn't do anything to change this despite it having ample opportunity to do so by establishing more of his character through flashbacks or discussions about who he was from before. But nope, any depth he's supposed to have is only in the very last scene, and trying to throw all that onto him at the last minute doesn't mean it'll stick.
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>>122005304
I suppose so. He sure does a lot of rotten things to make people dislike him.
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>>122005304
>nasu
>good anything
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>>122005424
They actually throw at least one hint when Illya gets possesed by Justica.
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>>122005424
>>122009089
And it worked pretty well with Kotomine.
I mean, I consider him a master edgelord who was evil because evil priest and then suddenly I got to HF and found out that he wasn't so simple.
The problem with Zouken is that he only got one route where he could shine, unlike Kotomine who was an antagonist in both Fate and UBW.
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>>122005304
Of all the grandparents in FSN who got to meet their grandchildren he was the best.
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He turned a girl's perfect black hair and blue eyes purple.

There is no forgiveness.
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>>122009221
Purple hair is great, though.
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>>122006079
In his case it just makes him more likable.
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>>122005424
Pretty much, his not a bad character he just doesn't get enough screen time. Same boat as Kuzuki was in before HA came out really.

His story of abandoning his family's legacy to foolishly chase after Jubesticia with a head full of romantic notions then gradually trading off more and more of his soul to meet those ambitions reads a lot better in complete materials than it does in the VN. He really is just Kariya and Shirou with more time to fester i
on his obsession.
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Yeah, his execution was quite satisfying.
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>>122009152
Natalia will never meet Shirou ;_;
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>>122005304
He's a hilarious villain. That should at least count for something.
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>>122011022
Cup, please vacate the thread.
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>>122005304
He jobbed so hard he made even Sakura look pretty competent
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>>122011022
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I thought it was kinda stupid he got no coverage at all till hf.
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>>122011149
He didn't job. He was shit anyways.
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>>122005424
>He's basically Anime Voldemort
No, that would be Michael (Jackson) "Valdamjong" Roa.
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>>122011700
He'd have to have been in an anime.
He's only in a VN and manga an-actually was Roa in Carnival Phantasm? I forget.
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>>122011776
Wasn't there some scene where he was complaining to Nero while drinking?
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>>122011815
honestly I forget
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>>122011815
>>122011827
He has that scene, and another with White Len where he joins the Back Alley Alliance as its lowest ranking member.
Being Roa is suffering.
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>>122011700
Wasn't Roa supposed to be "pure" and mostly harmless (as far as an Apostle Ancestore can be harmless, anyway) until he met Arcueid.
Also, he wasn't really evil for the sake of evil like Voldemort is. Just obsessed.
OK. you could argue Voldemort was obsessed too but he was more actively evil and puppy-kicking as opposed to amoral and mildly immoral Roa.
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>>122005304
He was no Kotomine, but he was really evil without being stupid (except for magic alzheimers part), he had great magic mechanics for his immortality and I actually think the plot twist with magic alzheimers was pretty amusing.
Overall, I thought he was decent enough bordering on downright good.
He was kinda boring throughout it all but he didn't job much and he got enough backstory by the end that he was interesting, overall.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NACc7DBRh0

implying you can escape
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>>122013073
>Implying I want to escape
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>>122013073
Now that we're talking about wasting time...
How do I git gud at Hanafuda, /a/?
I tried playing it and I can't defeat even goddamn Shirou. Even the fight with Not-Appearing-In-This-Game-san was a desperate battle where I barely managed to win.
What do I do? It seems fun.
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>>122013222
Memorize the yakus.
Learn to recognize to which month each card belongs ( That is, be able to recognize this card and this card go together. I haven't bothered to actually memorize it but the art lets you easily group them anyway)
if all else fails fuck with the special rules
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I'd like to get a story focusing on the first and second wars to flesh some of those characters out. Also more Zeltretch is never a bad thing.
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>>122013524
I want something new. Because originals are always more interesting than trying to imitate the magic of original FSN, even if it does result in fun things.
The first and second war do look really interesting, though.
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>>122005424
Reading back through the novel, you surprisingly do get some hints about him throughout the game, although they're so small you tend to forget them along the way.

I mean guy was first mentioned in Fate route by Kotomine. Even his real nature wasn't entirely hidden before the end. Entire story about him throughout was that there used to be something there but it was warped, Ilya saying it, Zouken saying it. You just didn't really get a feeling towards what it was that was warped before there, until Justica starting talking about their shared dream at the end.
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>>122011890
>Akiha has forgotten about me

That's just SHIKI, not Roa at all. Despite looking like him its not hard to see what the base personality is there. Roa is only Roa when he takes complete control and overwrites it as the dominant soul.

He's counted as SHIKI in the far side routes still.
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Did Zouken do anything wrong?
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>>122013807
Did he do anything right?
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>>122013807
Nah, he only helped a useless pedo commit sudoku, taught a young girl about her body, and fed a hungry Avenger.
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>>122013894
He did pretty well for himself in Zero.
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>>122013680
>>122011890
Poor SHIKI.
He had the worst luck in Tsukihime, and that is saying something when we have to compare it to Kohaku's backstory. Kohaku at least has a chance for redemption.
The poor guy had the bad luck to house Roa at the same time as being a Tohno. You could also say that being near Kohaku when she got all existential was bad luck too, but really, in the two routes where she doesn't drive him insane, Roa completely sumberges his personality, so apparently even without her scheming he's not in the clear.
He was thoroughly cornered into dying young by circumstances beyond his control
It's such a shame, really. He seemed like a decent guy during the one moment we see him in Kohaku's route.
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>>122013936
>Sit out this war because you don't have much of a chance anyway, plan ahead a war or two and decide to raise a new war prospect
>Got some child out of nowhere because Tohsaka's want to get rid of it
>Throw it in the pit
>Failure grandchild comes up asking to save that girl
>"What's this nerd talking about trying to act so big, I may as well make him suffer and die in a horrible way for thinking he's better than shit"
>Get him to summon Berserker so he can die horribly
>Somehow he survives awhile into the war as a shock, Get hobo to eat girls virginity
>Steal part of the exploded grail when things go to shit, implant it in girl

That's more him being "Whatever" and shit keeps falling into his lap. He had no hope there, and because he had no expecatations he constantly exceeded what little he thought would occur.

It's noted that his entire plan with Kariya was that he just planned for him to do in a horrible way, because he tried to play hero instead of scumming around like the shit he was. Zouken wasn't going to chase down a coward, but trying to play hero right pissed him off for a Matou.

Then Kariya actually survived until the semi-finals, and even Zouken was surprised that it almost worked out. Zouken was just kind of checked out mentally that entire war though, he was already looking towards the future.
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>>122014082
Read into it more, in part remember that Shiki said the same thing to Sacchin before killing her that he did to SHIKI before killing him. There's a very certain meaning to it all.

Guy was a victim, but it wasn't about redemption or good and evil, it was just their obligation to put a rabid family member out of his misery after being lost. It's just that in this situation, being lost wasn't his fault at all. Losing themselves to their demon blood and being little more than animals, that's something that will always haunt the Tohno family even without Roa.

Like Sacchin, she wasn't at fault, she didn't need redeeming so much, she just needed to be put down, as Shiki slowly breaks down for having down in for but a brief time. Even Akiha secretly did still care for her actual brother even if it wasn't touched upon much, he was the one that got Shiki and her playing together as kids. In the route where Akiha actually does kill Shiki, we see her break down a bit the next day in front of Shiki if I recall. Only a few days later did you find out that she killed him the previous night, and then put two and two together.

Though SHIKI's friend has certainly forgotten him. The maids were a bit sypathetic to his sitaution, reminding Shiki "Yeah, you were the one killed, but remember that for SHIKI it feels like the other way around. On that day it was his existence that was erased, as someone else simply became him."

Kind of like "It can't be helped"
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Least the manga remembers the real "SHIKI"
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>>122014407
that's some bad typesetting there
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>>122013911
>Smites the false martyrs
>Banishes youthful ignorance
>Feeds the famished
Are worms justice?
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>>122005304
He's just so fucking evil that it isn't even shocking when he does something evil.

It's like watching the Anti-Christ or something, nothing he does really makes you surprised because every time you see him you expect the most evil thing possible to be done.
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>>122014683
Are they homosexual?
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>>122013524
Third war and first war would be best. Third war to see Edelfelt/Tohsaka stuff, Darnic, Nazis, etc. First war to see firsthand how it started, as well as flesh out Zouken/Nagato/Justeaze. I imagine the third war would work best as a multi-volume LN like Zero or Apoc, and the first war probably a single volume short story.

Second war sounds boring and was probably over very quickly.
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>>122014723
It's funny that Tokiomi had accepted that Zouken would do horrible things to Sakura but figured it was okay, and then Zouken still manages to do even worse by crippling her as a magus and changing her so completely taht she's not even recognizable as a Tohsaka down on the cellular level.
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>>122014889
1st war wasn't even a war.
They just summoned 3 servants, commanded them to kill themself and realised that it didn't work because they need 7.
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>>122014889
First and second war being a single story would make sense in developing Zouken from well intentioned love-struck slightly evil guy to pure nuts. First war being so minor could be done in a single volume probably.
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>>122014965
Exactly, which is why it'd only be a short story.
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>>122014993
I wonder whether his or Shirou Amakusa's reasoning is more stupid.
>Death invites Greed. Greed allows Evil to accumulate. Therefore if we want to stop Evil then we should make everyone immortal.
Sasuga Marik
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>>122014965
No, that's just fanon. ECR clarified that they knew they needed seven and invited outside magi to simply watch the ritual to allow them to learn from it to reproduce it for themselves. The gulf between the families allowed them to make their own moves for the grail and it went down as a minor conflict.
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>>122015067
>ECR
what?
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>>122015081
Einzbern Consultation Room specials written by Nasu and included with the Zero BDs.
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>>122015112
we realy need cut back the acronyms
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You remember Shiki's words during the date with Arcuied

He doesn't like "What Ifs", and she likes them

At the end of the route their positions reverse as she's dying.
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>>122014666
>Those trips
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>>122005304
He's probably the best villain in Fate. His character isn't as likable as Kirei's, but he certainly does a much better job as a villain than him.
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>>122014899
What would Sakura's life have been like if Tokiomi never sent her to the Matous?
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>>122015354
What exactly do you mean by a "better villain"?
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>>122015447
He would have sent her to the Edelfelts instead, as noted at the time.

Even if they aren't too keen on each other, they still have enough influence towards each other that they'll accept.

She won't be the crest owner, but Luvia will have a sister at least.
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>>122015500
I want to see wrestler-sakura
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>luvia teaches sakura to ohohoho
>sakura is secretly a sadist and ohohohos even harder
>luvia gets scared
>she runs away to live with her cousin in japan
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>>122015574
Sakura has the natural OHOHO, the body, and the nature at times of a natural Edelfelt. She inherited the lions share of that part of the blood while Rin took more after their mother.

Since Rin and Sakura are like 1/4th Edelfelt due to Tokiomi's father marrying someone. They have a decent share of that blood. Rin comes closer in personality at times of course.

The only think keeping Sakura from expressing that haughty self is her "down/unlucky nature", the Matou blood cancels out the Edelfelt side.

>>122015676
>>luvia teaches sakura to ohohoho

Sakura is already beginning to show some OHOHOs, like at the pool in Ataraxia almost.
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>>122015500
The Edelfelts have absolutly no reason to "accept" Sakura and not just use her as an experiment
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>>122015768
She's like 9/10 tier breeding material (Aoi was 10/10 with her superwomb). While they don't need a woman at the moment, I'm sure they could stick her in a branch family to beef up a breeding line.
or however that works
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>>122015768
They aren't Zouken, they'll accept anything with potential and use it to its means, as would any magus family.

This is kind of what Tokiomi was counting on with Zouken. No matter how far degraded he was as a magus, he thought that he still had the heart of a magus, one who acts logically and coldly to effectively use a piece.

Guy was just a bit too degraded though by far. Luvia's family would take her in of course because she is a piece with some potential that they'd use somehow, anything with a rare nature like that is interesting enough to take in for these types. Whatever they do use her for, it is already noted it's nowhere as bad as what Zouken did, since he's a bit more degraded than any magus would be here which isn't what Tokiomi was counting on.

Tokiomi already stated in one game or another that he had an in with the Edeltfelts that put Sakura in there, that's not a question, they would have accepted if he says he could have done it. You're acting like this is "Maaaybe they would, but it wouldn't be good", they already will accept, and it will at least be better than it was for sure.

However it's no good for him if she's not the crest owner, if she's not going to become the head of a family, the one to reach the root. He wants her to be at the top, or for Rin to be at the top, or for them to kill each other over who gets to the top. Either way he wins, whoever wins it was Tokiomi that won.
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>>122015447
Different.
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>>122015500
By the way, did she even get a Crest from Matous, at least?
I think, the worms were her Crest, or something? I'm not actually sure how it works, though.
I'm only playing through FHA now, so they could elaborate on it, but does she even have a Crest post-HF since all the worms in her body died?
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>>122015924
That makes absolutly no sense.
He gave her away in the first place because being a heir is the only thing that would protect her from becoming an experiment in the clocktower.
You can obviously debate whether getting dissected and soaked in Formaldehyde is better than what Zouken did but I guess that's missing the point.
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>>122015862
Wouldn't she still fall in love with Shirou?
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>>122015997
The Crest Worms are the Crest of the Matou, yes.
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>>122005304
>Zouken
>villain
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>>122016016
Ironically, it probably would be. The rapeworms were pretty nasty, you know.
Not him, by the way.
Anyway, would she really be dissected? Wouldn't she be more worth to them as breeding material than as experiment material?
>>122016086
Not if she doesn't know who Shirou is. Remember, by that point she will be somewhere in Finland.
Also, you could argue how much lack of high bar jump and diminished need for psychological support would affect her feelings.
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>>122015997
Is it mentioned she has a crest post-HF? I forget. I only remember that she still has trucktons of prana.

>>122016016
No, he gave her away because otherwise her potential would be squandered, as she wouldn't be the Tohsaka heir, but she was still nearly as good as Rin when it came to magical qualities.

>>122016086
Presumably, not if she's in Europe her entire life.
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>>122016086
She might never even get to meet Shirou if she was made Sakura Edelfelt.
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>>122016098
So... Can she use them to cast spells?
In what way are they exactly a Crest? I thought Crest was like a Magic Circuit on your body, you let mana through it and it does magic by itself.
How would it even work with rapeworms?
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>>122016126
That's part of being experimented on.
>>122016137
>No, he gave her away because otherwise her potential would be squandered,
Nope
>The Mage Association is infamous for the amount of power struggle and backstabbing in it. Don't be surprised at how low they can stoop. Remember, the sealing designation was supposed to be a practice to help a mage's research under the guidance of the association, but Mages often use it as a way of getting rid of people or getting control of them.

>If Sakura didn't inherit the magic crest, she would be used by the Magi Association (due to her potential and unique attribute). It is not unheard of for the one unlucky enough to not be the family heir to receive the sealing designation (since they don't have the crest, they don't have much ability or influence to resist it. And basically no else but the family would stand for them).

>It was choice of Sakura becoming a political tool or potentially a labrat, or become a Mage family heir and actually has the power or influence to have a say in magi society and to prevent a possible sealing designation. It is the same reason why the Magi Association wouldn't touch Rin unless they have the proper excuse. Having a magic crest is like the first line of defense against Magi Association abuse.
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>>122016172
Presumably they work the same way, but with more wiggling.
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>>122015924
>he thought that he still had the heart of a magus, one who acts logically and coldly to effectively use a piece.
He totally did, though.
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>>122016204
fair enough
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>people thinking Sakura would have been better off with the Edelfelts and didn't get worms
>not realizing she'd have to live in Finland
Tokiomi made the merciful decision.
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>>122016172
>Can she use them to cast spells?
Not really. They feed on prana, so most of the time she can't even manage even simple spells. I mean, Rin can sense magical energy and nuances in it, but even after years of stalking Sakura she didn't have a clue her sister was a practicing magus.
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>>122016370
>but even after years of stalking Sakura she didn't have a clue her sister was a practicing magus.
That's completly wrong.
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>>122016204
Another option, though this one would probably fry Tokiomi's brain if he ever though of it.
What about giving her up to random people somewhere and not telling anybody about it and clearing up the trails? Or maybe saying something like "she died, Japanese cold is a bitch".
She could probably even learn magic as a heretic and live pretty happily by herself as long as she didn't go anywhere near Clocktower.
Yeah, that one he was not gonna do for sure, but it's not like anybody could do anything to prevent or punish them. I'm just speaking theoretically about what could possibly be done in that situation.
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>>122015924

Well the main thing is that Tokiomi was an irresponsible parent who kind of sat on his laurels and worried until Zouken asked for help.

I'd be very surprised if no other magus family wanted a girl with a rare element, potential, and mana capacity ten times that of an adult magus at four years old. So he had to not bothered doing his research.

The Matou were fallen, known to have turned away apprentices, and their blood wasn't suited to Japan and rapidly dwindling. The only reason he had for accepting is because he irresponsibly had another child and had no choice when she was born that powerful and for some reason magi allow their children to be taken away from them if one child doesn't have a crest, which was his own fault, even if she payed for it.

Even if Zouken had been legit about teaching her, he was exposing her natural talent to their degrading magecraft, and her body was built toward accepting the Tohsaka brand of magecraft. That she still has her potential and didn't end up dead was because that potential was so great. Logically, this was a terrible decision from the jump that only the Sword of Damocles of some Association nut kidnapping her and getting her pickled in jars as a research subject can even make this deal anything but a forced outcome.

The only thing the Matou have of worth is their finances, their prestige died out when they kept refusing apprentices decades ago, their bloodline is shot, and their knowledge can just be taken from such a fallen family.
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>>122016432
That plan seems extremly stupid
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Why do people hate Kariya when he called out Tokiomi on his bullshit?
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>>122016458
>he irresponsibly had another child
To be fair the circumstances were that babby rin had like a japanese cold or something and it looked like she wasn't going to make it
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>>122016458
>I'd be very surprised if no other magus family wanted a girl with a rare element, potential, and mana capacity ten times that of an adult magus at four years old. So he had to not bothered doing his research.
I actualy doubt that.
Why would anyone take a stranger as heir to their magic crest?
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>>122016527
Because Kariya homself wasn't an altogether great guy.
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>Villain
Nah. Try based grandfather, servant of Nurgle, hero
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>>122016458
>I'd be very surprised if no other magus family wanted a girl with a rare element, potential, and mana capacity ten times that of an adult magus at four years old. So he had to not bothered doing his research.

The reason he went with the Matou is because they didn't have a heir at the time, which means she becomes the family head and gets the crest with time, and also because Imaginary Numbers supposedly would mesh decently with binding magic which their family originally excelled in.

After all it was Zouken that made the command spells and all that.

Tokiomi did have other options, there were indeed other people that might have wanted her, but he didn't just want to give her away, he wanted her to be the crest owner. He talked about his dream in Zero at one point; both of his girls competing to reach the root, a fight to the death, whoever wins they will have completed the goal that all magi seek. Dream can't be fulfilled unless she's the heir to the family, the head, the one to compete for the glory and ambition.

Kariya left the Matou family, so they were devoid of a heir luckily, Tokiomi must have been elated thinking it worked out so perfectly in a sense. Little did he know, etc.
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Reminder that Zouken should've picked the older sister.
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OUTTA MY WAY MORALIST FUCKING SHITS
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>>122016612
There's also the fact that the other options would make Sakura into either a political tool or a labrat
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>>122016496
Why?
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>>122016579
>Why would anyone take a stranger as heir to their magic crest?

Because she's probably a dozen times stronger and better suited than any child they could create.

You seem to not realize that Mages are cold and logical, they are not typically warm parents. If they have a kid, and another kid shows up that has more potential as a magus, they'll pay attention to the second one more.

That's the difference between a magus, and someone who just dabbles in it. Mages are people who value a result over humanity typically. It's strange enough you haven't realized this now.

A magus will always act towards logic and goal more than anything else, especially love typically. That's an entire thin in HF with Rin not knowing whether she should be a typical magus and make the magus choice, or choosing to be a human and picking the more human choose.

Often those choices are directly opposed. Mages are terrible people, but at least they're good at magic. That's a general sort of rule, we can't judge them by normal standards.
>>
>>122016400

Be that as it may, she was really cagey about the whole deal. When Shinji was defeated, you'd think she would have talked with her about things. And in Fate, she never bothers to just tell Shirou Sakura is a magus, and acts like she is some regular person who needed to be shooed of instead of making a possible alliance.
>>
>>122016579
To be a magus is to walk with death.
Not just your own, but everyone's.
>>
>>122016666
>quads
enjoy your ban
Also, she did end up as a lab worm so...
>>
Can someone please explain what the hell Imaginary Numbers is good for? It seems like it would be kinda crap unless combined with the power of the Grail fragments in Sakura's body.
>>
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Typical magus parents

All the mages we tend to see in Fate, are the abnormal types, we can't forget such a thing. Kayneth was the closest we've seen to an average mage.
>>
>>122016784
It's good against spirits and the like
She'd be the top ghostbuster around
>>
>>122016738
>>122016823
This is from Strange Fake, right?
>>
>>122016738
I think you're missing my point.
Mage's are pretty much like royality.
They will keep power among themself as long as somehow possible.
The entire foundation of Magus-society is based on lineage.
Crest can only be passed to family members and it's basicaly described as "carving your ancestors onto your body"
Magi want THEIR descendants to reach the route.
>>
>>122016850
>tfw no Sakura's Book of Friends
>>
>>122016823
No, they're weird. Normal magi seek to develop heirs with crests. They want to use her as breeding stock for their weird bacteria.
>>
>>122016784
>Can someone please explain what the hell Imaginary Numbers is good for?

Controlling ether, controlling things that are outside of reality, creating dimensions outside of space and time that can have space and time, teleporting through wormholes, pocket space, traveling, absorbing, it's one of the rarest attributes. Tokiomi wasn't sure whether to give up Rin or Sakura at one point in the novel, as he considered Rin's Average One and Sakura's Imaginary Numbers to be equal, but in the end he went with "This one's more useful in normal things"

Imaginary numbers is one of the outside elements, it's abstract in its usage, but don't ever think it's useless from what you hear here no matter what anyone wants to believe.

We don't even know fully what this shit can do in a sense, we haven't even seen an real user of it to date. Just some half-baked user with no training.

We know that one of the agents of the Church also has it and uses it to create dimensions, but that's about it.
>>
>>122016758
>And in Fate, she never bothers to just tell Shirou Sakura is a magus
Because Sakura doesn't want Shirou to know that she's a magus.
>and acts like she is some regular person who needed to be shooed of instead of making a possible alliance.
She pretty much says "You know why you shouldn't be here for a while, right?"
And Sakura at that point is a magus but not a master and Rin realy doesn't want to involve her into the war
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>>122016861
Rider's master

Summons the Pale Rider, Disease incarnate.
>>
>>122016612
>He talked about his dream in Zero at one point; both of his girls competing to reach the root, a fight to the death, whoever wins they will have completed the goal that all magi seek.
Really?
I should watch Zero as soon as possible.
Well, anyway, in HF it was actually kinda fulfilled. In the most twisted manner possible.
Yay for the dream?
>>
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>>122011093
Shes a cute cup
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>>122016603
But Nurgle loves you. Zouken doesn't.
Zouken is a disrace to Nurgle.
>>
>>122016603
>>122017091
Nurgleshitters pls go. Nurgle is an asshole.
>>
>>122016738

>Often those choices are directly opposed. Mages are terrible people, but at least they're good at magic. That's a general sort of rule, we can't judge them by normal standards.

We can to a point, since they do illogically stupid things. Treating your child badly is a good way of getting a knife in your back and the family coming apart. See the Aozakis. Logic dictates that sometimes taking emotion into account is the best decision. I am sure if they made some sociological data, they would find 90% of the reason betrayals happen in the family isn't entirely up to competition between siblings, but how you raised the siblings together. For instance, Rin and Sakura based on how they mended their relationship even when the relations were at some of the worst, would very likely support each other if they were raised together, even if one had the crest and the other didn't. If you raise a child to bite the necks of their siblings, then that is likely the mentality they will adopt.

They may have different rules and a different society, but the human psyche doesn't change much. They desire knowledge to better understand things about the world around them, desire power to make their desires easier to obtain, and so forth.
Even if they do inhumane things, they are still human, because humans do inhumane things.
>>
>>122015447
She will still end up as a bland boring character
>>
>>122017136
Tzeentchfag, pls.
>tfw Tzeentch is an ideal magus
>>
>>122017145
Not him, but I actually think you're right. There is a reason why social skills are considered important. Nobody lives entirely by himself.
It bugged me a little bit about magi but I just chalked it up to "you aren't necessarily supposed to believe them when they say it's just a difference in society".
Plus, it's a fun way to explore how they work. Nasuverse magi are very distinctive in that regard. It's interesting to see how the world around them shapes them.
>>
>>122016937
>Tokiomi wasn't sure whether to give up Rin or Sakura at one point in the novel, as he considered Rin's Average One and Sakura's Imaginary Numbers to be equal, but in the end he went with "This one's more useful in normal things"
I'd realy like you to quote that part.
Because I can only find this
>If only he would be able to pass the treasure that he got from his father onto his daughter – Tokiomi thought sadly.
>However, that was already impossible to be achieved.
>For Rin and Sakura, there were no choices for them in the first place.
>One of them has all elements, having five multiple elements as her alignment. The other has no elemental alignments, having Imaginary Numbers only. Both sisters have a rare potential that can be equated to miracles. This had surpassed the limits of so-called natural talents or inborn skill; it is almost like a curse.
>A magical nature would equally gather magical powers to it. Prominent people who are far outside the rules inevitably ‘gather’ equally extraordinary experiences. This can not be controlled by the person’s own will. There is only one way to deal with this kind of a destiny – consciously walk away from the rules yourself.
>Apart from understanding and practicing the way of magecraft themselves, there are no other ways to deal with the magical powers hidden in the blood of Tokiomi’s daughters. Moreover, the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them. This fact tormented Tokiomi for a long time. The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all kinds of odd evens due to her own blood, and trouble bound find her. If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.
>>
Someone post the sempai compilation link plox.
>>
>>122016977

She never said anything like that during the conversation, she pointedly and rudely said that Shirou didn't need her anymore, with no further explanation. She knows Sakura thinks of Shirou's place fondly, in as dismissive and sarcastic a way as possible.

Even Shirou, basically said it sounded like she was harassing her. And we know she puts her foot in her mouth in everything regarding Sakura.

Then they met afterwards, and the two reconciled in ten minutes, with Shirou wondering what they heck happened. We can only guess she actually bothered to explain herself clearly this time.
>>
>>122017477
http://a.pomf.se/hbohvp.webm
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>>122017556
Much obliged, #senpai
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>>122017526
Seems I only remembered parts of it.
Though I agree that Rin realy isn't good at formulating what she's trying to express
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>>122017886
It seems like Rin's trying to drop magus-hints but Sakura interprets it as romance-hints
>>
>>122017946
God damned eroge
>>
>>122017075
Why is the birthday ghost the best servant?
>>
>>122018002
>completely loyal
>brainwashes people to be nice to you
>repels whore-faced clay monsters
>>
How would things have played out if Shirou got into a relationship with Sakura when the events of each route started?
>>
>>122018110
He would be guilty of adultery in two routes.
>>
>>122017556
I fear what would happen to it when we get to HF.
>>
>>122018110
Shirou paying attention to Sakura is what trigger HF.
And reminding Zouken of his existance
>>
>>122018110
Zouken probably wouldn't have noticed, so it'd just be him hiding it from Sakura and not being attracted to Rin/Saber, leading to different scenarios.
>>
>>122017946

No, she just really didn't explain herself properly. It's something Rin tends to do with Sakura, she acts more overbearing than usual. This was noted several times throughout the story.

Besides, there was no need to be quite that rude about it. If she didn't want to be candid in front of Shirou, she could just say she would handle the explanation, and take Sakura aside, fulfilling what she did not ten minutes later with no muss or fuss.
>>
>>122018110
Sakura wanted a relationship with Shirou but, she felt that she wasn't deserving of him and waiting for the day someone else would take him away up until the rain scene when he told her he'd be there for her no matter what. So, If he asked her out she probably would've said something like,"you wouldn't really want me senpai" or "Someone like Tohsaka-san would be better for you" and I'd probably go that way until all of the skeletons are out of the closet.
>>
>>122018213
>No, she just really didn't explain herself properly.
That doesn't contradict what that anon said.
>If she didn't want to be candid in front of Shirou, she could just say she would handle the explanation, and take Sakura aside
I don't think that would have worked.
Also Rin still failed in her original goal of not having Sakura come to Shirou's house during the Grail War
>>
>>122018173
Wouldn't happen in this case so much, it was more of a perfect storm coming together in HF.

Grail War starting so Angya had accumulated enough energy to make a move, incarnate a bit, Shirou who didn't pay attention to her was paying attention to her, the girl who had no hope suddenly found a small desire, desire was turned into fear, fear became that one yoda speech from that Star Wars movie for how the Dark Side happens.

Because Zouken convinced her as well that Shirou would die during the way, or that Rin would steal him or something. Hope, Desire, Fear, some other feelings, Angya who encompasses all evils in the world was able to manifest through this person who for so long felt nothing, because for the first time there was something to incarnate into, some emotion that he could find a place to crawl through.

If Shirou had been paying attention to her far before the war, she wouldn't suddenly be feeling "Hope, fear, desire" etc that created this combination. She's not going to Angya out in any other situation, except in those two weeks when Angya is active, and only if it just so happens that some peculiar emotions are suddenly emerging in her that Angya can use in order to find a host. Angya always needs some emotion or some evil to appear through, since he's lost all "self", he only shows himself through humanities sins.

You could say that in HF some factors just came together in this way like a perfect storm, almost as though it was "fate". Molded by some hand from above.
>>
>>122016900

We only ever see a bit of her abilities.

And she had plenty of friends, you must have seen pictures of the chibi Shadow Giants she has carrying books and papers, and riding on her shoulders.

Likely, if she was inclined when she gets better, she probably has all types of familiars. Too bad Nasu hardly ever talks about her training, but she works with Medusa and a bishop of the church yo develop herself past the handicaps she got from being badly trained.

I mean, her favorite things since she was a kid is sweets and horror stories, which...actually makes me a tad frightened to think about. Her powers can make an alternate dimension where anything she wants can occur, her childhood was...unique, and she loves the horror genre. It's like a goldmine and Nasu won't take advantage of it.
>>
>>122018173
She probably would've stayed at Shirou's house instead of having him walk her home then, Zouken would've sat in his room playing with his caterpillars instead of remembering who Shirou was.
>>
>>122018794
I could see Zouken forgetting Sakura exists if she just stays away from the house for about three weeks. Unless Shinji reminds him at some point.
>>
>>122018002
I think I'm gonna be partial to Caster or Jackserker. They seem like fun guys.
>>
>>122018920
He's not that out of it yet.
>>
>>122016738
>>122016823
>>122017035
I'm a bit disappointed this doesn't look as edgy as the Zero manga.
>>
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>Tubaki was born to Eastern-Asian magi parents in their thirties seeking for ways to further their future in the world of magecraft. They were among those who managed to take the actual machinery underlying the Fuyuki Holy Grail War system, and while there, also obtained partial knowledge on Zouken Matou's magecraft. Seeking to adapt it to their own use, the eventually reached the idea of using magically-modified bacteria to better their host, and decided to use their first born daughter as the test subject. Speaking words like “We will make you into an illustrious mage”, her parents' experiments caused her great pain. They felt no love for her as a person, but only as a vessel to continue their family line.

>Although their experiments proved to be fruitful, they lost control of some of the bacteria before she was complete. This deprived her of her consciousness, but her parents had long lost any interest in her as a person. She was hospitalized solely for the sake of making sure that an heir could be born from her. While in a coma, Tubaki entered her dream world, where she initially suffered from great loneliness. After eventually getting used to it, she continued to explore the city, and she eventually stopped keeping track of time after three months. After one year, the False Holy Grail War began to approach.
>>
>>122019667
Why are all mage parents such shit? I just want to see this girl happy.
>>
>>122019667
They have to be a special kind of retarded to copy ZOUKEN at this point
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Strange Fake derail? I heard there was a translated excerpt of Richard's introduction, but I can't find it anywhere. Does anyone here know if and where it exists?
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>>122019828
She has new friends now

Birthday Ghost is her friend; along with her sick mind-controlled parents acting out the role of a "happy family" for her, along with anyone else Rider pulls into her dream world, will act out part of the play for her, trying to grant her wish of happiness within the coma.

She's going to die during this story, in order to kill Rider someone is going to track her down in her sleep.
>>
>>122019908
I bet on Jack
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For an entire year she was alone in the coma, it was nothing but suffering and loneliness

When the grail started though, people started entering the dream, she had friends, her dreams became a happy thing in her last days.
>>
>>122019856
Yeah, seriously. Like, what could go wrong?
>>
>>122019908
Hopefully Rider will push Enkidu's shit in first.
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>>122019908
So notSakura is in a coma/dream world and the Ghost of Christmas future brings her friends?
>>
>>122019948
Flat Escardo's 5-Step Guide to Success and Husbandos:
>Force yourself into something important.
>Do something.
>Acquire bro-tier manservant.
>Do nothing.
>Win everything.
>>
>>122020061
>Disease is something that rides on wind, waters, birds, and people, so it can be said that the Rider class is an appropriate designation. "He" is that which has "ridden" "his" way to dominance all over the world, and possibly most of all, by being given an alias by the populace to reflect "his" nature as the embodiment of calamity, "he" has been summoned as such. "His" very nature is a foreign abnormality that proves the False Grail is the least worthy object for the title of "Holy Grail." It is unknown if anyone can even recognize "his" alias or even the fact that "he" has been summoned as a Servant in the first place. "He" is noted to have great strength that makes "his" Master the dark horse of the war.

>Rider appears within Kuruoka's dream world, letting loose a black fog over the streets. The contract is formed only within the dream, so none outside are aware of it. "He" is able to facilitate her unconscious dream magecraft by bringing people into the dream world by infecting them from outside, many black spots like bruises appearing of their bodies, and causing them to fall unconscious. While also absorbing their magical energy instinctively, "he" does not take directly from their life force, so their bodies are only disabled. They appear within the dream world with the same black spots covering them, and "he" manipulates them to remove their original personalities and instead become living dolls following Kuruoka's idea of how they should act.
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>>122020061
Kinda. Funniest shit is that her parents were actually trying to summon some Qin Shi Huangdi, or some other Chinese emperor, but because they'd fucked up their daughter so badly she ended up being a more powerful catalyst than the shit they'd brought.
>>
>>122020184
What ends up being used as the catalyst at times is sometimes a question.

Guy tried to sacrifice his wolf as a catalyst once, the wolf's will to live or its tears or something, maybe it's connection to the planet ended up as the catalyst instead.
>>
>>122019905
What's she even doing fighting in a knockoff HGW in America?
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>>122020475
>>
>>122020033
This is one of the most adorable things to come out of the Fate universe.
>>
>>122011057
Feels bad, man.
>>
>>122020512
A sickly loli served by a black blob of feels-bad doing its best Freddy Krueger impression?
>>
>>122020696
Her being a sickly little girl that just wants to be surrounded by people and her wish being fulfilled b y a faceless entity makes it adorable.
Tragic = Cute
>>
>>122020511
>>122020511
What's Zelretch doing at the Bootleg Holy Grail War?
>>
strange fake is strange
>>
>>122020511
What, was it just Zelretch being a dick again?
>>
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>>122021074
He's watching over anything where the stakes might effect shit in a big way perhaps.

Kind of like The Watcher, in Marvel.
>>
>>122019856

They have the convenience of not knowing what happened with Zouken's other prototype.

Lesson here kids, don't make your children into test subjects, it won't end well for you.
>>
>>122021111
Why would he care?
He can just hop somewhere more comfy.
Watching a shitty bootleg holy grail war must be horribly boring compared to a fuckup like the third one.
>>
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talking to some unknown party over the phone
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>>122020033
This kid is somehow familiar.
>>
>>122021191
You don't say.
>>
>>122021152

It's Alcatraz.
>>
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>>122021148
>Watching the strangest grail war in the history of all grail wars, where three entities that might cause the Counter Force to do something are summoned at the same time, along with a dozen other bullshit things happening, in what could be the biggest fuckup mess of all time grail war so far must be horribly boring compared to a far far less interesting grail war. Because I heard it involves Nazis and stuff, that's interesting right? Nazis? Also there were like two Sabers? I mean that's far more interesting than interesting and far less boring than Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrecking entire deserts trading Ea blasts until all of America might be destroyed in this fucked up grail war where Disease itself is summoned, right? Tots yo, shit's far more interesting.
>Written by fucking Narita.

No
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Dunno where I'm going with this

Although at the end of the story Zelretch opens up his address book
>>
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Reaches this page
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>Jester is a Dead Apostle known as the Six Hearted Revolver who has taken interest in the Holy Grail to grant his wish.

>Jester is bored with the nature of the world, so he participates with the hope of waking the spider from its slumber with the power of the Holy Grail and to die with the rest of the world. While not according to his original plans, the mishap with Assassin revives a part of humanity he thought he had lost: "excitement." He gains knowledge from their connection, allowing him to grasp Assassin's convictions. He describes her with a variety of praises like lovely, trim, and perfect, but then decides that he does not have the appropriate adjective to characterize her.

>He becomes enthralled with this new prospect, the ability to bestow upon her a name by tainting, molesting, demeaning, dominating, and befouling her beauty, soul, strength, and faith all for his own pleasure. His only goal is to make her submit, so that he can savor the expression she makes while he crushes her faith and drains her strength. The Holy Grail and end of the world may be beautiful, but they are worthless dust compared to her despair.

A war full of nothing but heretics and monsters
>>
>>122021364
Ayaka is blonde now? She just looks like Himuro.
>>
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Assassin has eighteen noble phantasms, all of them are the NP's of every other Hassan in the organization, save for the 4th war one.
>>
>>122021289
I didn't play CCC, but I remember somebody saying that it was the strangest Grail War and nothing can top that ever, even specifically mentioning Strange Fake.
>>
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Caster is the one we're all underestimating so far, not considering as much of anything compared to the other monsters.

Apparently he can make Noble Phantasms, as many as people want, and give them out?
>>
>>122021638
His eyebrows are weird. Or rather, his eyebrows and his hair are the same thing. And apparently his hair is blue and half his teeth are red. He's weird.
>>
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>his special ability, Sublimation. The skill involves somehow rearranging and rewriting the legends of Noble Phantasms and bringing them into existence. He compares it creating pure forgeries of the weapons, saying that it is outside of his forte and instead recommending Elmyr de Hory as someone he believes capable of producing an infinite number of forgeries with powerful magecraft.

>Their actual nature is quite different, as he is capable of giving birth to legends that are even greater than the Originals and making them real. He has created at least thirty weapons with powers that are greater than what were told in legends, and the process is seemingly time consuming because he thinks he'll be driven crazy from overwork. His Master sees this as vital in defeating Gilgamesh due to mere forgeries not being enough to overpower the King of Heroes. He wishes to utilize his team to quickly overpower him with the enhanced Noble Phantasms before he can draw Ea.

Fakes greater than the originals, but something about this seems warped.
>>
>>122021638
There's probably some critical flaw that has to do with his identity. I'm interested to learn if people were right in speculating Dumas.
>>
>>122021638
Well, Shirou could make Noble Phantasms too. Not that he could give them out, though.
In fact, it was pretty much the only thing going for him and it got him through the entire War.
>>
>>122021965
Shirou can't make forgeries better than the originals, and he can't give them out, since they tend to disappear after awhile when the world decides its enough

Mundane items can stick around for a few months in his shed, but things like Noble Phantasms tend to break a lot faster as gaia calls bullshit faster. Handing them out isn't ever so much a strategy he's had or used.

In fact his forgeries are weaker than the originals, rather than stronger. This won't help against Gilgamesh.
>>
>>122022057
>and he can't give them out
The Gemsword disagrees
>>
>>122022057
Well, they are, but is the difference in power really so big? Especially considering the entire Broken Phantasm thing.
Nasu wanted to make him a big underdog, and it kinda makes sense, but logically, he should be stronger than this Caster. The only thing that limited him was his shabby Magic Circuitry and Servants in the Fifth War being pretty broken. Really, the ability should be really powerful if used right.
He probably can't arm an army, though. The best he can hope for is hand-holding with King Arthur.
>>
>>122022096
The sword seems to be less complex than Noble Phantasms (and more complex at the same time somehow), probably because it's not something that cannot exist in the world. It's possible to make as many as Rin can build with time and resources once she figures it out.
>>
>>122022248
This supposedly isn't even Caster's real ability, it's just what his master is using him for here or has deemed his "to use" skill for now. It's noted Caster's abilities in combat are exceptionally low, but he can make NPs stronger than the real thing, and Shirou even if he broken phantasms can only make them "on par with the real thing" at best.

Yeah that's something of a difference here. We don't even know what all Caster can do, but we know if this isn't even what he considers his main thing, or if this is what his master is making him do, there's certainly a trick to it.

It's a grail war full of the biggest heretics and monsters out there, including the servants. Caster is not disqualified from that list as he's also a heretic or monster in some unknown way. He's gotta be in order to compete.

He can't make NPs as fast or as much as Emiya, but they're better so far.
>>
File: 192-193.png (3MB, 2458x1800px)
192-193.png
3MB, 2458x1800px
Everyone in the Police Force has NP's
>>
File: 202.png (994KB, 1246x1800px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
202.png
994KB, 1246x1800px
Apparently I've heard that shit might get dire enough here that Ruler could show up?
>>
Strange fake sure is strange.
art's nice though
>>
>>122022724
Was it ever translated?
I didn't read it yet.
>>
>>122022676
I think that's the role of Ayaka's Servants. I heard Saber muttered something about setting the Grail War straight.
>>
>>122022763
It's not translated and there's been no word of anybody working on it either.
>>
>>122022821
That seems to be the Einzberns wishing to take over or somethng. The one that gives her the command spells is described just like one of Justeze's models.

>>122022963
The guy who did the first version said he'd be doing the novel. A guy on BL has done two parts of the manga and planned on doing it all.
>>
>>122023106
That's good to hear.
>>
>>122005424
>And thing is, the parts of his character you do mention are good.
>parts of his character you do mention
I'm not seeing any description of Zouken's character in >>122005362 or the OP.

Did OP samefag the first three posts?
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