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Is Tragedy a lost genre to anime?

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Is Tragedy a lost genre to anime?
>>
Not only for Anime but also almost all media because modern people can't handle tragedies.
>>
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Kind of but not really. What >>122004894
said.
>>
>>122004894
>modern people can't handle tragedies

This, everyone would call a tragedy edgy shit nowadays.

On /a/, anyway.
>>
>>122004817
yeah so many people I recommend Madoka to drop it after the third episode. Normal people can't into tragedy,
>>
>>122004973
>>122004894
equal forms of correctness
>>
>>122005037
There are tons of reasons to drop Madoka. Right at the first episode, even.
>>
>>122004894
Except that's complete bullshit. VNs are chocked to the gills with tragedy to the point it has become laughable.
>>
>>122005037
Madoka doesn't even resemble a tragedy though
>>
>>122004817
Kind of

Mainly because anime wants to sell and the only people who pay for anime are fat otaku with paper thin ego that cant handle tragedy
>>
>>122004894
Tragedies are absolutely everywhere on serialized TV right now and have been for the past decade heavily.
>>
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>>122005135
>VN's
>Anything other then laughable.
>>
Tragedies aren't popular these days, right?
>>
>>122005262
Oh, so this is a /lit/ shitposting thread in disguise? It explains the out of place OP.
>>
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>>122005271
Or making tragedies nowadays is a tragedy in itself.
>>
>>122004817
But poor average guards/soldiers/militia gets chomped by monsters in almost every series, how is that not tragedy?
>>
>>122004817
Check out Tokyo Magnitude 8.0
>>
>>122004817
Not in the classical sense, no, I don't think so.

And you know what, fuck tragedy, it's shit. Not the slightest entertaining. Would rather get literary meaningfulness from other genres. This is my opinion.
>>
>>122005329
No, because I'm the OP and I love VNs.
>>
>>122005395
It becomes comedy if done wrong (see Blood-C).
>>
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>Gunbuster
>>
>>122005026
>breaking bad one of the biggest shows of recent times
>basically spitting image of classic tragedy arcs
>modern people can't into tragedy

It is pretty dead in anime I agree, outside of a rare handful of shows, but elsewhere its never been bigger.
>>
Say what you will about the Oedipus Trilogy being entry-level shit
but I really did feel moved by every one of the three sections.
Tragedies in a classical sense are so engaging, I was 'oh shit' edge of seat more than anything else I've ever watched

I don't get why we don't have more of anything else besides the shit comedies, romances, romantic comedies, action flicks, etc.
>>
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>>122005615
>I don't get why we don't have more of anything else besides the shit comedies, romances, romantic comedies, action flicks, etc.

Easier to digest, less brainpower required to enjoy, sex sells, etc.
>>
>>122005395
Because you havent spent the past few episodes getting attached to their characters as they develop
>>
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The saddest thing is that most people don't know what a tragedy work actually is nowadays.
>>
>>122005664
Also, who wants to watch shit about tragedy?
It's not like real life events are already enough bad shit for Japan.
>>
>>122005615
>>122005664
Because we do, don't say there's nothing but shit but then not seek out all thr abundant types of films you are asking for that get released every year.
>>
Are there any good anime tragedies? I enjoy the genre but it's seldom featured in anime.
>>
>>122005730
I might have accidentally when full /tv/ and talked about films
I don't actually know the state of the anime industry in terms of diversity of genre, but I can see variety on here alone, so I believe you.
>>
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>>122005329
The plot of every VN in existence:
>MC is the only man in existence, of others exist they are pure evil or the best bro of the MC
>MC has a super special awesome magic power that may or may not be so super special awesome depending on the power of his friendship level.
>All girls want the MC's cock, especially the 3-5 girls that the MC will have to pick from.
>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening.
>The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.

For bonus 'drama':
>Girls are all being hunted by something/someone, dying of an incurable ailment, need the MC's blood/jizz/magical power/exc. to survive or a combo of the three.
>>
>>122005911
Then whichever one he picks dies. Key detail.
>>
>>122004817
We don't need tragedies because the biggest tragedy is living in a 3d world.
>>
>>122005695
I don't.
Can some please tell me what a tragedy is?
>>
>>122005911
Well I was judging Muv Luv by your criteria and

>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening.
>The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.
>Girls are all being hunted by something/someone, dying of an incurable ailment, need the MC's blood/jizz/magical power/exc. to survive or a combo of the three.

all failed
>>
>>122005650
Fate/Zero is probably the closest thing I can think of to a traditional tragedy.

Ironically enough, School Days actually works as a tragedy pretty well. There's a protagonist who finds himself in a typical situation and is brought to his downfall by his own flaws.
>>
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>>122004817

Berserk, Evangelion, Escaflowne, Metropolis etc.

In other words, no. Japanese drama INVENTED the tragicomedy, too.
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>>122005037
Half of the characters are literally Greek tragedies.
>>
>>122006189
The actual structure of Madoka does not resemble a tragedy though. Especially not the ending, which is the crux of what makes a tragedy a tragedy.
>>
>>122006020
Simple it's when a work doesn't have a happy ending... And no a nothing is resolved ending doesn't count.
>>
>>122006189
IF YOU MEAN THE CHARACTER IS A TRAGEDY OF WRITING
nawwww never watched it
>>
Texhnolyze
>>
>>122005911
The only VNs I've seen follow all of your criteria are all eroge ironically enough.
>>
>>122004817
WUT

>SUFFERING
IS THE MOST OVERUSED ANIME TROPE AS A SHORTCUT TO CHARACTER DEPTH

ARTIFICIAL BUT EFFECTIVE
>>
>>122006434
Everything has suffering but that doesn't make it a tragedy.
>>
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>>122005911
>>
>>122006434
Maybe you should look up what Tragedy means
>>
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The people I've convinced to watch Berserk were legitimately angry with me after it ended.
>>
>>122006512
They're only angry cause you made them watch it, not read it
>>
You need to watch more Urobutchi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3vq3WH4Xn8
>>
>>122006473
ITS ALWAYS A TRAGEDY

>>122006491
Tragedy (from the Greek: τραγῳδία, tragōidia[a]) is a form of drama based on human suffering
>>
Most people can't define tragedy beyond "...uh, something sad, I guess?" - of which there is enough media out there that tries to source its entertainment value by plugging at ye heartstrings, so transparently indeed that we have our own buzzword "forced drama" for it.

It's not even that most people can*t handle "sad" content (as some commenters suggested) or only want happy stuff, no but the matter is there is only a rather specific type of sadness presented. Example case being the cliche of cute girl dying from some anime-disease, that's the type of "tragedy" that otakus will lap up for "feels"
>>
>>122006512
I made that mistake once or twice. I now preface the recommendation with the fact that the show ends on a cliffhanger. Softens the blow.

The anime is totally underrated.
>>
Discuss TRADITIONAL GREEK TRAGEDY
and CONTEMPORARY TRAGEDY
Distinguish which one you are discussing, avoid misunderstanding!
>>
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Not at all
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>>122006585
A tragedy is a protagonist who is a villain, and he dies at the end.
>>
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last thing i read that followed the tragedy formula was tokyo ghoul. the manga at least.
>>
>>122006020
>Tragedies
Everyone dies.
>Comedy
Everyone marries.

Everything else just leads up to that.
>>
At the risk of being told to fuck off to /v/ I just want to point out that as I was replaying Majora's Mask I really realized how much of that fucking game works as maybe the first real tragic game in 3D. Everything from the mechanics of the game to its atmosphere reinforces the central theme of the inevitable. And the beauty of it all is that this isn't accomplished by some half-assed explanation. It's accomplished by the game itself. The tragedy of Termina is that link is only human. No one could ever possibly save everyone in Termina. The player's flaw becomes Link's flaw. And in that sense, the tragedy is twofold. It manifests itself in both the character and the actor.

Just some thoughts. I can't actually think of an anime that really satisfies the elements of what I would call a traditional tragedy.
>>
>>122006764
no its not. tragedies usually have an MC put in a horrifying situation that is due to his own faults such as hubris. and by the end of the play he realizes his own faults and then dies
>>
>>122006900
>and by the end of the play he realizes his own faults and then dies

Or he doubles down on his hubris, falling deeper into the depths of his own futility as he dies horribly.
>>
>>122006697
ayy
>>122006764
>>122006820
>>122006900
>>
>>122005911
>The plot of every LN in existence
Hell, there's some garbage airing this season with elements of your post.
>>
>>122006900
>no its not.
compelling, but I think I'll trust Shakespeare over random anon who gets his education from anime.
>>
>>122007064
Who came before Shakespeare by hundreds of years?
>>
>>122007103
MADOKA

A DECONSTRUCTION OF GYROS
>>
I'd say GC was pretty tragic and a lot of people loved it. Not me though that shit is for homos.
>>
>>122006512
the 97 anime is classic but it would have been so much better if it dropped the first episode and changed the ending from the manga to have guts killed, then it would stand on its own completely
>>
>>122007119
RIGHT
GYROS, food item of GYRO NAME predated the CONTEMPORARY SPIRALS
SPIRAL MOTIF IS A RENOVATION OF GYROS in name
>>
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>>122006236
>The actual structure of Madoka does not resemble a tragedy though. Especially not the ending
It ended on a bittersweet note, but I think there were enough Faustian themes and descents into murder-suicide to warrant a few depressive descriptions.

The movie sequel on the other hand ended with one of the characters undermining the free will of the one she loves, to the point where she forces her into a gilded cage despite the implied conflict it would cause for them in the future. Sequel bait maybe, but it wasn't really a pick-me-up.
>>
>>122007103

Oh I can't wait. This is the part where we start quoting Aristotle and then someone tries to quote the pre-socratics. And then someone's going to try and quote the Epic of Gilgamesh as a tragedy.

I love it when we start doing this.
>>
Although it doesn't wholly fit the definition of a classic tragedy, Jin-Roh is closer to the mark than any other anime that comes immediately to mind.
>>
You know it's not like if you lifted the plots from Sophokles and Aischylos and put them into something like modern anime, anons would just be like "ugh, forced drama" anyway.
>>
>>122006853
Majora's Mask is dark, but it isn't a tragedy. Link never wavers and shepherds the NPCs through their trials.

Tragedy generally involves a sympathetic protagonist being undone by their heroic flaw. Offhand, examples in anime would be things like

Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade
Cowboy Bebop
The End of Evangelion
and the Golden Age arc of Berserk
>>
>>122007196
Yeah, you're kind of right.
I'm not going to quote anyone but Sophocles, not the first, is a famous guy.
I don't get why you're being all snarky about nothing.
I don't think of Gilgamesh as a tragedy.
>>122007229
I can kind of see that. Fuse prioritizing the survival of the brigade did not foresee her killing until the last moment.
>>
I see tragedy as a path of logic that leads to a negative result, thus persuading the reader to not follow that same path. It's wisdom, in a sense.

Katanagatari was a tragedy. Everyone who focused on the past lost their lives for doing just that.
>>
>>122007343
That's actually a pretty good example. Don't know how I didn't think of it.
>>
>>122007182
>It ended on a bittersweet note

There ya go, not a tragedy. No ifs ands or buts.
>>
>>122007305
>Link never wavers
Ah, but he does.

Every time he turns the clock back he wavers. Every time. Again and Again. Link fails far more often than he doesn't. The really tragedy isn't Link though. It's the people that he's unable to help. You can't save everyone. You can't even save most people. You can't save Anju and Kafei, and Pamela, and the Gorons, and the Zora Eggs, and the Monkeys or the Romani cows. There simply isn't the time. You can play the game again, and again, and again, rewinding time as much as you want but eventually you'll just have to kill Majora, and by that point you will have failed. Your fatal flaw is your own humanity. It haunts you even in victory.

Take a look at the credits screen if you need any more proof. You couldn't even save the Butler's son.
>>
>>122006764
By that definition Death Note is a tragedy.
Is it, /a/ ?
>>
>>122007462
This is Polygon-levels of fucking retarded.
>>
>>122004894
There are still tragedy books but no one reads because everyone is semi-retarded.
>>
>>122007501
What did you think it was? Of course it's a tragedy.
>>
>>122007501
Yes, it's a really bad one.
>>
>>122004817
No. Far from it.

In fact, the entire anime industry is a tragedy.
>>
>>122005911
>I can only read .001% of VNs because I'm a pleb who can't even read japanese
>>>/v/
>>
>>122007546
Miyazaki, please. At least shitpost on 2chan.
>>
>>122007510
excellent retort, faggot.
>>
>>122007546
>implying Kill la Kill didn't save anime
>>
>>122007501
Death Note is definitely a tragedy, albeit a shit one. Not every tragedy is Macbeth.
>>
>>122007562
For Starters, no Zelda game is a tragedy. They're quests.
>>
>>122007305
>>122007229
these niggas get it
Jin Roh was the only strong tragedy I've seen in anime.
That being said, the entire industry is getting worse and worse so we best not expect anything better.
>>
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>>122007596
And not every Macbeth is a tragedy.
>>
>>122006329
This. All of this.
>>
>>122007462
The Butler's son was screwed before you even entered Termina proper.

There's only 2 conflicting events:
-stopping Sakon from looting the Bomb Shop lady versus helping Kafei get the Sun's Mask from Sakon's Hideout
-giving Kafei's letter to his mom versus giving it to the Postman, both of which get made irrelevant if the Moon is stopped anyway

EVERYTHING else that Link can fix over those 3 days can be done in a single 3-day loop once Link has all the key items carried over.
>>
>>122006542
I'll concede to the manga's superior pacing and time for detail, but I still love the old anime, despite the tragically abrupt finish. The music, the atmosphere, the lack of Puck, those goofy outtakes from the dub, etc.

>>122006675
>preface the recommendation with the fact that the show ends on a cliffhanger
Yeah... That's probably wise. Damage is done though.

>>122007166
Eeh, the first episode was skippable, but I don't think that completely killing the open-ending would have made it more satisfying.
>>
>>122007615
>Not every fish is dumb, they're yellow
>Not every elephant is a mammal, they're small

This is the equivalent of the shit you're spewing.
>>
Would akame ga kill fall under tragedy?
>>
Is Danganronpa a tragedy or is it much worse?
>>
>>122007676
The letter to Kafei's mother can only be done one of two ways.

Also, I'd love to see someone try and do every fucking sidequest and boss fight in one three-day cycle. I'm sure a speedrunner could probably do it, but for the average gamer, its not possible.
>>
>>122007702
Whatever, kid. Go play with your Wii. Adults are trying to discuss anime.
>>
>>122004894
It's because tragedies are governed by decently strict conventions. At this point, the 'classical' tragedy is largely played out novelty-wise, so you have to execute it very well for people to care.
>>
>>122007708
No.
Happy ending for a lot of people.
Just a particular type of conclusion for a particular relationship, not a total shitting on everyone.
>>
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>>122004817
>Not reading manga
>>
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i was gonna say cowboy bebop was a tragedy but then I realized spike basically knew he was getting into the whole time and there was no sense of irony, he just went in, watched his gf get killed, then got himself killed cause fuck it
>>
>>122007745
>nothing personnel kid :/\)))))
kekity kek
>>
>>122004817
It's a lost genre to a lot of places. The Wire and Breaking Bad are probably the last successful high profile Greek-styled Tragedy series.

As for anime, I suppose Shin Sekai Yori got close and Madoka got a bit closer, but neither one really gets in that dirt. Fate/Zero gets pegged as a tragedy but you can argue it either way.

Funny that Mushishi came close with Lightnings End and Path of Thorns though. That show definitely isn't in the tragedy arena so when it dips its toes the effect is much more powerful.
>>
>>122005911
Is Fate the only VN you've attempted to play.
>>
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>>122004817
No. Tragedy will always exist because we are gluttons for punishment.
>>
>>122007708
Akame ga Kill's author is a fucking hack whose manga basically runs on shock factor.
I know the word "edgy" is misused on 4chan on many boards but when most of the drama of the story comes from "characters being raped and killed" it fits. Not to mention the retarded mood dissonance between comedy and dark shounen drama.
>>
>>122007854
Homura has to die, or it's not tragic.
>>
>>122004817
Nobody want to animate them since there are nothing to advertise for.
Nowadays people just want 20mins LN advertisement.
>>
>>122007854
Suffering exists because we're gluttons for punishment.

Tragedy exists because someone irrevocably erased their own path forward. If someone endured a fucked-up life but died with zero regret, the outsider will still think that person's life was a tragedy because they generally don't want to live out said fucked-up life.
>>
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>suffering and forced drama are tragic
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Kaneki did nothing wrong
>>
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>>122007874
A tragic hero doesn't have to die. They have to experience a fall, or a loss of prosperity.
>>
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I hate Narutaru but, read Narutaru.
>>
>>122007874
Oedipus became a blind wanderer.
>>
>>122008083
What they're doing to him in TG:RE is annoying but I have hope..
>>
Tragic means that you can relate to the characters and their pain.

Most anime fail at that because drama only occurs under retarded circumstances like characters betraying their own character just to go into the dramatic situation.
>>
>>122008115
Stories with tragic characters don't necessarily act out tragedies. Sorry, rules are rules.
>>
Nobody can argue with this one, right?
>>
>>122008160
Are you trying to argue that Oedipus Rex isn't a tragedy?
>>
Classic Greek/Shakespearean Tragedy: a story in which a protagonist's actions lead to their downfall, often moral and often providing a cathartic release. Generally easily predictable or flat-out spoiled at the beginning of the story.

Modern Tragedy: show with sad or heavily bittersweet ending, but still designed to trigger a cathartic response. That's the real key: it's able to trigger emotions we otherwise keep bottled up because being sad makes us happy.

-Fate/Zero fits the definition.
-Madoka's not a classic tragedy because, despite the characters having archetypal tragic hero arcs, the downfall is undone by Madoka's sacrifice.
-Angel Beats is arguably a modern tragedy because of catharsis and a bittersweet ending. Possibly same with Clannad, but I still haven't seen it so I'm not sure.
-Death Note's not really a tragedy because Light's a villain protagonist and not a tragic hero.
-A lot of Mushishi episodes are tragedies.

Not many good tragedies in anime but there are a few gems out there. Same can be said of modern media as a whole.
>>
IF THERES ANY SUFFERING, ITS LITERALLY TRAGEDY
>>122006585

AND THE SITUATIONS THAT LEAD TO SAID SUFFERING ARE USUALLY TRAGEDY IN THE OTHER SENSE

>IS TRAGEDY LOST IN ANIME
KEK

ITS THE CHEAPEST AND EASIEST WAY TO GIVE LIFE TO CARTOON CHARACTERS

AND THEREFORE >SUFFERING IS HUGELY OVERUSED
>>
>>122007790
The only thing that was keeping Spike alive was running from his past, he decided to man up and face the music.
>>
>>122008160
Show me a source saying that Greek Tragedies have a rule saying the hero must always die.
>>
>>122004894
>>122004817
very difficult to compete with television news for tragedy
still plenty of tragedies in other media though, not sure what you're talking about
>>
>>122008030
>forced drama

epic
>>
>>122008115
He dies in the sequel.

>>122008164
That was thirty years ago.
>>
>>122008207
The villain must die. Homura is not the hero Madoka is.

And Shakespeare is the source.
>>
>>122008194
Emeraude's death in Rayearth can fit as a Romeo and Juliet-tier tragedy.
>>
>>122008221
>girl acts like a normal caring person
>some minor shit happens
>''HOW CAN THAT POSSIBLY HAPPEN TO ME WHY AM I SO SHIT I WILL FUCK OVER EVERYTHING NOW!''

>not forced drama
>>
>>122008280
Best example for that would be Madoka

>Sayaka in general
>Mami shooting her own friends after she cried how much she wants some
>>
>>122008307
>Mami shooting her own friends after she cried how much she wants some
Cake?
>>
>>122008160
What the fuck are you getting on at?
>>122008226
Yeah. I was getting at the fact that he didn't die in Oedipus Rex. His living in Oedipus at Colonus (Which is not the sequel, but the first published and performed work) is important, and his death is anything but tragic. It is a redemption.
>>
>>122008235
Homura is not the villain, Kyuubei is. In the series and the first two movies Homura is the deuteragonist while Madoka is the protagonist. In Rebellion Homura is the protagonist and therefore the tragic hero.

Also, Shakespeare did not invent tragedies. Shakespearean tragedies are their own subgenre and have different characteristics than the overarching genre of "tragedy". It was Aristole that said a tragic hero is defined by a loss of prosperity, not by death. Though death is a good example of a lost of prosperity.
>>
>>122008343
Tragedy is a story structure. The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant.

You're all babies.
>>
Disregard that i suck monkey dicks
>>
>>122008235
>The villain must die.
Oedipus does not die in Oedipus Rex. Oedipus Rex is a classic Greek tragedy. Therefore, the MC doesn't have to die for something to count as a tragedy. Why is this so hard?

>>122008379
>The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant.
c.f,
>The villain must die. (>>122008235)
Are you actually trying to be completely incoherent?
>>
>>122008379
>The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant.
Then I agree with you.
I was saying to the first guy that Oedipus, the main guy, didn't die in Rex.
In fact, no one had to die in Rex and it still would've been a tragedy.
You might be a different guy, I don't know.
>>
>>122008160
>Oedipus isn't a tragedy

Fine. Go argue with the ancient greeks, namefag.
>>
>>122008160
>legitimately attempting to argue that one of the most prominent examples of a genre is not part of that genre
>>
>>122008379
You are the baby.
You can't even read that guy's previous posts.
>>
>>122007874
She is dead.

On the inside.
>>
>>122008405
I suppose you're right. Then that would make Madoka a tragedy, as Homura is as good as dead.
>>
>>122007533
>no one reads because everyone is semi-retarded.
Society or younger generation in general?
>>
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>>122008495
>says you don't need to die in a work to make it tragic
>says Madoka is tragic because Homura is ''dead''
Are you pretending to be retarded or just a dumb namefag?
>>
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>>122008526
>>122008495
I'm pretty sure there's several them confusing everything.
>>
>>122008549
s/several them/several of them
>>
fuck
this is why we don't need trips on a board like /a/
>>
>>122008526
That's not what I said. I said the presence of death and suffering is irrelevant.

There's death in a story, and then there's a story constructed around a death. That is what tragedy is. A structure. A story isn't a tragedy just because you're sad that people die or suffer in it. Every war movie is not a tragedy.

Understand now?
>>
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>>122008526
>Are you pretending to be retarded or just a dumb namefag?
You know what to do, anon.
>>
>>122008589
You're all good, no worries.
fuck impersonation
>>
>>122008606
Who is !!xgyk and what did he do to fracture your mental state enough to hide from the world, cowardly-anon?
>>
>Definition of a tragedy
>A play dealing with tragic events and having an unhappy ending, especially one concerning the downfall of the main character:

Nothing about death.
Oedipus is tragic because the guy kills his own father and impregnates his own mother without knowing anything about it.

Madoka for example isn't tragic because Madoka is the main character. The story follows her not Homura for most of the time.
>>
>>122004894
The masses eat tragedies up. Everyone loves them. I'm not sure why producers are so afraid of them. Be they aren't gone. There Will Be Blood was a recent movie. And I never saw the end of Breaking Bad, but I'm guessing it wasn't a "happily ever after".
>>
A tragedy is about the fall of great people, whether through their own devices or because of a greater sense of "destiny."

It's not exclusively about suffering or anything like that.
>>
>>122008680
I've not an expert, but I always thought a tragic hero had to be responsible for their own downfall due to a tragic flaw.
>>
>>122008626
Every post in this thread is me, I was just wrong and retarded before anon set me straight
>>
>>122008606

Not that anon but thanks for reminding me that for all intents and purposes I have the power to wipe namefags like this mouthbreather out of existence.
>>
>>122008701
Exactly.
A tragic hero needs to be responsible for the shit he is getting.

It can't be happening to him because of some monkey paw bullshit.
>>
>>122007196
but shakespearean tragedy follows everything >>122006900
said idk why you're disagreeing
>>
>>122008710
Well, thanks for understanding.
>>
>>122008701
Not quite. Hubris and Downfall are the most prominent, of course, but there are also classical tragedies that feature more or less innocent protagonists who are simply caught in lose-lose scenarios and inescapable catastrophe
>>
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ITT EVERYONE INVENTS THEIR OWN DEFINITION OF TRAGEDY ADDS RETARDED CAVEATS AND THEN ARGUES ABOUT IT

BY ANY DEFINITION, TRAGEDY IS THE BIGGEST GIMMICK IN ANIME
>>
>>122008499
Society in general, most people don't even touch a serious book, maybe they read the new shitty best seller and newer generations for the most part don't pass the young adult literature phase.
>>
>>122008847
No, tragedy is still a story structure. A work isn't suddenly a tragedy just because an author pulls your heartstrings. That's just called 'drama'
>>
>>122008847
There are clear definitions for tragedies.
>>
>>122005135
What about a VN where they're the entire focus?
>>
>>122008948
THERE SURE ARE
>Tragedy (from the Greek: τραγῳδία, tragōidia) is a form of drama based on human suffering

>>122008931
IF THE DRAMA IS BASED ON SUFFERING IT IS
>>
>entire series is the MC suffering
>at the end he doesn't even get a happy ending

This makes me rage so hard.

Why do authors do this? I will put up with all your shit if you at least make a happy resolution.
>>
>>122005911
Demonbane didn't have that.
>>
>>122009651

it felt like a hard reset only found in a videogame
>>
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Depends how this series ends
>>
>>122009721
There life is supposed to be awesome and gradually get worse until the point where they die in a ditch somewhere.
>>
>>122004817
>I love saddnes

That edge.
>>
>>122009806
I'll respond to the bait tragedy has always been a thing and it exploded with the greeks
There is literally nothing wrong with that
>>
>>122009824
Slavery was always a thing too and the Greeks were doing it.
>>
>>122009452
hell.. anything other than Romeo & Juliet.

Macbeth, King Lear, Othello, Coriolanus, Hamlet, Julius Caesar, especially Titus Andronicus.
>>
>>122009791
>girl dies
>it starts to snow/rain
god I hate that shit. feels so artificial
>>
I like characters who suffer and close themselves off from the world because they are the most relatable.
>>
>>122009806
Tragedies don't necessarily mean it's grim dark 24/7.
>>
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>>122009845
>implying slavery was bad
>>>>
>>
>>122009908
And it still isn't today.
>>
>>122009867
Macbeth would make a great anime.
Samurai and Daimyo in Warring States Japan.
>>
>>122009870
>Snows as girl is implied to be ghost
>As he lets go of the balloon that symbolizes his memory of her from years past
>As the girl he should be after arrives and is a total bro
How's that for you?
Unsurprisingly, Oshii directed a lot of this series.
>>
>>122005555
HOLY FUCK
DUB-DUB-QUADS
breaking bad confirmed for best show of all time
>>
>>122009942
That's not so bad. It's just the timing of the rain/snow seems so convenient.

I recall it raining after Maes Hughes dies in Fullmetal Alchemist and I fucking winced.
>>
>>122009845
Slavery wasn't a form of narrative.
>>
>>122006512
>>122006542
BESERK.
I know im gonna get a lot of shit for this, but is the manga better or the anime? I'm actually up to date with the manga, give or take a few chapters cuz busy recently, but is it worth watching the anime?

Urobuchi's works are tragedies. One just needs to explore the themes a little more to realise this.
>>
The Golden Age Arc of Berserk definitely seems like a tragedy to me. I have not gotten far with the Manga though I plan to eventually, but from where the movies and anime series left us off I'm assuming the continuation isn't just sunshine and rainbows
>>
>>122010106
The manga is a masterpiece. The anime is just ok.
>>
>>122009870
as a music persom I am actually most offended by the inevitable string swells or piano that always accompany this type of scene as if cueing the audience "HEY IDIOTS YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD HERE THIS IS A SAD SCENE" and this overly blatant attempt at emotional manipulation always prompts a revulsion that takes me out of the immersion. This shit is to cheap drama what basically a laugh track is to cheap comedy
>>
>>122005911
What's a "VN" ?
>>
Why the fuck would I watch anime to see something sad?

Why the hell wouldn't I watch for anything other than interesting characters and fun?
>>
>>122010366
Lurk Moar
>>
>>122010366
Somewhere between a game and a book. Exactly where between the two it lies tends to vary by title.
>>
>>122010144
The anime got me into the manga when I was 15.
I was feeling utter despair after the last two episodes.
Then I fapped when I saw how many chapters were already out.
Now I wanna slap Miura for being a perfectionist asshole
>>
>>122010454
>perfectionist
>implying he's not just fapping to [email protected] all day
>>
>>122010302
Agreed. The overuse of dramatic orchestration has made it really cringy in the context of a tragic situation. If there has to be music, something understated works best nowadays.
>>
>>122010366
Visual Novel.
Basically a glorified picture book, because once you're NEET enough to be reading them regularly, you've lost all ability to think for yourself and have no imagination.
>>
>>122010427
On /a/ ? No way. Only episodic visits with recovery time in between

>>122010439
>>122010500
Thanks. I'll avoid these things.
>>
>>122010528
There's some genuinely good ones out there, but they generally come down far more on the game side.
>>
Even though everyone on here seems to hate it but I felt Mirai Nikki could have been pretty strong on this side if it hadn't pulled the ova and the ending of the last episode.

The constant switch between a grasp of hope( like him suddenly having real friends) and the hammer of fate which ultimately denied everything he wished for, while cursing him with the resulting neverending loneliness was actually very captivating.
>>
>>122007343
I was looking to see if somebody brought this one up. Togame's story is basically a classic tragedy, although the MC's is a story of growth that is motivated by the tragedy.
>>
Tragedy, huh?
>>
Tragedy in a play is nice.
Tragedy in anime is shit.

That's just my opinion though.
>>
>>122005531
Gunbuster's not a tragedy, not even talking about Coach or Admiral Takaya or Noriko.

Just because there's a sad element to an ending doesn't make the whole story a tragedy, there's a difference.
>>
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>>122009721
I like those stories, especially when the MC sees through his ambitions even when the entire world turns against him.
>>
>>122004894
But that's fucking wrong, retard. Tragedies have been ingrained into other genres that it's not as noticeable at first. People mention Breaking Pleb as an example.
>>
Nobody said bokurano ? Holy shit
>>
>>122009892
>>122011257
Nevermind.
>>
Umineko is a tragedy even though R07 claims it's a bittersweet ending
>>
>>122005911
What VN are you even referring to?
I've literally never played a VN that has 3 out of 5 of those.
>>
>>122009941

Not Macbeth, but there's Japanese film based on King Lear. Although the setting and the characters itself was changed to fit in the era of Warring States, Samurai, and Daimyo; most of the plotline is still the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ran_%28film%29
>>
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>>122011876
>anime
>>
>>122004817
The Tokyo Ghoul manga ended in tragedy and the anime probably will as well.
>>
>>122011371
>Umineko is a tragedy

Trying to read it sure brought tears to my eyes.
>>
>>122009941
Macbeth would make a great anime.

Watch Throne of Blood by Kurosawa. It's basically Macbeth in Japan.
>>
>>122011371
More mystery rather than tragedy.
>>
>>122012005
whoops.. forgot that word.
>>
>>122011371
The fact that it went full shounenshit in EP8 sure was a great tragedy, especially after fairly decent EP7.
>>
>>122004817
No. Baccano still hasn't gotten a second season.
>>
>>122011876
>>122012123

So Kurosawa managed to adapt two Shakespearean tragedy.
>>
Anime just doesn't know how to do proper drama and tragedy. It almost always comes off hackneyed and contrived.
>>
>>122009997
>>122009942
>>122009870
Honestly, I don't think it's so bad. It's kind of like the chorus popping out and telling us "Thus ends the life of Hero main/ whose life was naught but tons of pain" in that a non-character being is telling us the nature of his tragedy. The sky weeps, or the clouds part, and all is revealed in that character's final moment.
>>
>>122008194
>-Death Note's not really a tragedy because Light's a villain protagonist and not a tragic hero.
Death Note can be argued to be following Shakespearean tragedies. It's more in line with others like Macbeth and King Lear in that regard. And his name getting written into Ryuk's book is pretty much the epitome of a classic tragic end.

"Hero" doesn't mean "good guy" in this context so Light being the villian is completely irrelevant to the classification other than "Is he the main character?" and "Is karma coming to bite him in the ass?" It's why over half the thread cites Breaking Bad because to quote Jesse: "[Walt] can't keep getting away with this." Walt rises to Heisenberg, then everything he's worked for comes crashing down and he has only himself to blame.

But DN being a tragedy is probably only secondary in its genre/classification because it's more of a thriller than anything.

And I don't know if I like your interpretation of modern style tragedies. I'd argue it's more of "MC starts in a bad place, and then it gets worse all the way." So if we drew a graph of say, a character's power/accomplishment within the story, a Shakespearean tragedy would be a mountain where the line goes up, hits a peak, then it comes down (usually lower than the starting point) like pic related. A modern tragedy would just be a line going straight down with occasional bumps. Most people don't know the difference so just claim "hurr there's suffering, it must be a tragedy". A typical feel-good story where the good guys get a happily ever after would be a V shape where it goes down, then comes back up.

So to give a handful of random examples of classic tragic heroes/characters (not shows) in animu, we'd have:
- Light in Death Note
- Lelouch in Code Geass R1 (if we ignore R2)
- Togame in Katanagatari (as mentioned by >>122007343)
- Gendo from Evangelion
- I guess Kiritsugu from Fate/Zero (I'm still iffy on this)

I was going to write the other list but 2000 chars. Sorry.
>>
>>122004894
modern people are the tragedies, they don't need more of it
>>
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1dmB2z39_8
Every character in umineko has a tragedy.
>>
Coincidentally garo is airing right now and that shits tragic as fuck
>>
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>>122004817
Well yeah.
>>
you could go and say that

Clannad: After Story

is quite tragic its just the different kind of tragic you want
>>
>>122009538
Nagisa's death was not caused directly by Tomoya, so Clannad really isn't a tragedy
>>
>>122014133
It's the combination of Nagisa and Ushio's death and all the suffering that came with it that makes people think it's a tragedy but this is just the uninformed opinion of "sad scenes = tragedy".
>>
>>122012389
How many anime have you watched? Honestly now.
>>
>>122012669
>Lelouch in Code Geass R1 (if we ignore R2)

I don't think the fact he pretends to be a villain makes him less of a tragic figure. If anything, he's even more Byronic.
>>
NTR is modern tragedy
>>
>>122013856
>>122010777
>>122009173
>>122008083
>>122007788
>>122006772
>>122006751
I think most of us get it by now
>>
>>122014507
Ehh I dunno about that. He achieved his ambitions and basically got to do everything he wanted to do. We, the audience, know the true story so Lelouch's death wasn't a tragic end at all. It's not the act of pretending he's the villian IMO, it's the fact that it was his plan all along and it worked exactly as he wanted it. R1's end was basically everything he's built and loved crashing down and/or turning on him.

Like, if Light's plan in Death Note for the end was to intentionally get caught and get exposed so that the world that lived in fear rises up against him, defeats him (because he knows he's guaranteed to be killed by Ryuk), then in a fresh bout of released introspection create some sort of morally good utopia, then nobody would argue he's a tragic hero. Part of the formula IIRC involved nothing ultimately going to plan. No happy retirement for King Lear, no crazed teenage sex honeymoon for Romeo+Juliet, no kingdom for Macbeth, and no world peace for Lelouch.

>If anything, he's even more Byronic.
I never heard that term in my advanced high school and entry college literature classes so I don't know what you mean, sorry. Can you explain?
>>
>>122015146
A tragic antihero, to put it simply.
>>
>>122005555
Agreed.
Can't argue with double dubs + quads.
>>
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>>122004894
>>122007533
I'll read/ watch a tragedy if the plot is interesting or if it's an account of real life, but not fictional tragedy for the sake of tragedy, which is what a lot of stuff in the genre falls into.

There's already enough tradedy in real life, and lots of books, articles, and documentaries chronicling it, so why would I want my fiction to be about it?
>>
>>122007851
Fate doesn't have
>MC is the only man in existence, of others exist they are pure evil or the best bro of the MC
There are a lot of girls, but guys aren't particularly rare too.
>MC has a super special awesome magic power that may or may not be so super special awesome depending on the power of his friendship level.
He has special powers, yeah, but they kinda suck and everybody around has more special powers than him.
>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening.
Just plain wrong. Even in the first route. Remember how he almost snapped Shinji's neck in cold blood there?
>The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.
Arguable. Saber is king of jobbers after the first route and Rin is more of a support than a fighter. Sakura is right out.
If we count Archer as a girl, maybe you're right.
>>
>>122004817
Does Tsukihime count as a tragedy?
And I'm talking about the VN.
The anime certainly is a tragedy of the biggest caliber, though.
>>
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>>122005357
>Invisible drum solo
>>
>>122009148
Blast of the Tempest might do the trick.
>>
Does each season of Kaiji count as a tragedy?
>>
Where's the line between an anime that is tragic and an anime that is a tragedy?
>>
>>122004817

>Lost genre

Hardly. It gets shoehorned into fucking everything.

You want tragedy, the anime? Watch Guilty Crown, Evangelion, Madoka if you don't find an albino cat that talks without using it's mouth suspicious etc.
>>
>>122017412
>implying Kyubey having ulterior motives was supposed to be a shocking twist
>>
Breaking Bad could of been a tragedy if not for a few key points.

- He earns his son a huge amount of wealth by fooling the Black family into thinking they will be assassinated if they don't

- He gives his wife a good defense when he tells her the location of the DEA agents bodies allowing her to bargain for a lessened sentence

-He frees Jessie and kills the slavers who kept him captive. Along with poisoning the chemical suppler woman (I forget her name)

It was a bittersweet ending but not a tragedy.
>>
>>122017412
>shoehorned into fucking everything
>Three examples going back to the 90s that aren't even tragedies
>>
>>122017540
>if they don't transfer the money left to him
>>
>>122017412
> mistaking drama for tragedy
>>
>>122009211
Hisui True in Tsukihime, anyone?
It seems Nasu knows his tragedies, even if he is addicted to happy endings.
>>
>>122017412
>Evangelion
Gendo might qualify but he's not the protag and NGE isn't a tragedy, at least in the classical sense.

>Madoka
Individual timelines before Madokami's creation might qualify as tragedies for the megucas but the show proper+Rebellion isn't. At best, it's half of a tragedy where we don't get to see the downfall and aftermath of Homura's dollhouse reality.

>Guilty Crown
Sadly still on my backlog so I can't give an opinion.
>>
>>
Gankutsuou is a tragedy, it's based on Le-Comte de Monte Cristo.
>>
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>>122004817
Maybe.

But Koreans embrace the shit out of in in their Manwha
>>
>>122005555
>I don't know what classical tragedy; but, I compare it to things I like.
Go read Poetics.
>>
Gankutsuou
Bokurano
A lot of the stories in Mushishi

I think there's more of it in manga than anime.
>>
>>122017983
>Manwha
>>
That old Three Kingdoms anime.
The one that ends at the Battle of Red Cliffs.

Really, seeing how popular that period of Ancient China is, they should just make an updated anime of the novel, hire the studio that animated Akame Ga Kill and there you go.
>>
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>>122007711
How can such a HOPEFUL game be a tragedy?
It depends on whether you consider individual cases or the game overall. The ending is pretty hopeful, but the cases are really tragedies.
>>
>>122012761
This.
>>
>>122018119
Yes Breaker is a manhwa
>>
>>122005650
What are you talking about, fate/zero is a barrel of joy and happiness.
>>
>>122004817
Saikano is the superlative of tragedy.
>>
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>>122005158
/thread
>>
>>122005329
It's always /lit/ if it involves plot
>>
>>122014507
>>122015440
So I did some reading from Google and asked a couple friends about it, and my understanding is that a Byronic hero wouldn't necessarily be a tragic hero even though there is some overlap. Am I correct in that? It seems Lelouch would qualify as a Byronic hero like you said but I don't think that makes him a tragic hero too.
>>
>>122006512
You're a faggot. Always take pride of the damage you had done.
>>
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>>122004817
>>
>>122020529
The tragedy was in that the boat wasn't really all that nice.
>>
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Came here to post F/Z, but I guess I'm late.
>>
>>122020529
>>122020750
Actually wouldn't School Days fit the formula?
>>
>>122021006
No, anon, people have just been repeatedly posting School Days in this thread because they all coincidentally got lost and posted in the wrong thread.
>>
>>122006259
No, that isn't the true definition.
To make a tragedy you need three things:

1. A likeable protagonist with a major flaw in their character.

2. A central conflict that causes this protagonist to fall from grace as a result of this flaw.

3. A part were the protagonist admits to their mistakes, but only after it is too late for them to make amends.

I learned this stuff in school years ago. Is it really that uncommon for schooldays to teach kids basic genre definitions?
>>
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>>122021097
>A part were
>uncommon for schooldays to teach kids
>>
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>>122004817
The tragedy genre only exists in the domain of theater. The equivalent for audiovisual medias such as cinema and anime would be the drama(not as in the japanese "dramas", but the drama film http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama_film ).
>>
>>122021097

People, going by that definition, say that Kiritsugu made a mistake.

But he didn't make any mistakes during his pursuit of his ideals. He would have literally brought world peace if it weren't for bad luck.

In his case, the "flaw" is rather personal, in being unable to enjoy life, and the "admission" to that "flaw" is really just giving up because he has simply been *unable* to reach his ideal; it's not that he decides the ideal itself to be a mistake.


I just wanted to say this, because I'm a Kerry autist.
>>
>>122021260
In what way are tragedies exclusive to theater?
>>
>>122021097
>schooldays
How the fuck did that happen? I meant to say "school".
>>
>>122021321
To put it simply, there is no movie genre named "tragedy". Drama is its direct equivalent.
>>
>>122021447
So then you think the terms are interchangeable?
>>
>>122021308
I remember being surprised by that. Surely, world peace can not exist, so the Grail must not work in the first place. Obviously, it will turn out that it never would have worked in the first place, right?
Well, kinda, but nope. If it wasn't for Einzberns screwing everything up with their "special snowflake" Avenger a war before, everything would've been completely fine, and Kerry could've gotten genuine world peace, 'cause Root is pretty powerful and we're specifically reaching for the Root here.
In the end it was probably supposed to say that you can't reach world peace and it's a pipe dream, but I just found it kinda funny how Kerry failed pretty much because of Einzberns being incompetent, and nothing more.
Not that it wasn't still largely his fault.
>>
>>122021852
No, they aren't.
>>
>>122005911
I've read my fair share of VNs and I can't really remember any that fit all of these criteria.Heck, I can't think of one that fits even three of them.
>>
>>122007870
Not like he intends for the manga to be taken seriously anyway. AgK is just a way for him to kill time between writing new Minatosoft VNs.
>>
>>122021870
>Surely, world peace can not exist, so the Grail must not work in the first place. Obviously, it will turn out that it never would have worked in the first place, right?
I don't see why world peace cannot exist. You only need to change some key aspects of human nature. I certainly know that a world full of people like me would be peaceful.
>Kerry could've gotten genuine world peace, 'cause Root is pretty powerful and we're specifically reaching for the Root here
Yeah, that's canon from what I got, as weird as it is.
>>
>>122022033
I meant that you think the only difference between the two is whether it's in the context of theater or film. In other words, that drama and tragedy are identical terms except for the chosen medium.

If this isn't true, then what's the difference?
>>
>>122022327
The tragedy tag spoils the ending. If the story runs on the mystery of the conclusion, then tagging itself as a tragedy spoils some of the first-time fun.
>>
>>122022460
How is that exclusive to theater?
>>
>>122022207
Wait... Are you saying that Majikoi and AgK are created by the same guy, or something?
I don't buy it.
>>
>>122022719
Films need the ending hook to pull in the most sales possible, so if one film about a lone female survivor in a zombie apocalypse is advertised as "the greatest tragedy since X", congrats, you just lost sales from the mainstream crowd that wants to believe she might make it out OK.
>>
>>122005911
Sounds more like a harem of any media.
>>
>>122022725
It's true. Takahiro also wrote the prequel LN for Yuuki Yuuna.
>>
>>122024512
And yet Majikoi is the only thing worth a read from this guy.
>>
>>122009867

>King Lear
>Dying japanese millionaire owns a massive company and has to divide it between his three daughters

Fund it.
>>
>>122023207
Just because something isn't commercially successful doesn't mean that it can't exist.
>>
>>122012761
Ouch. Sad but true. The reason for not haing tragedies is because people are miserable hence they do not wish to see movie or stories about tragedy.

Which, makes us wonder if people from ancient times were happier than we are.
>>
>>122024963

>wondering if people in the past were happier

No, it just means they were in less denial. They accepted that humanity was in shit condition. We're just more comfortable hiding behind the illusion of progress.
>>
>>122024963
The well off were, they socialized a lot more then us due to not many forms of entertainment so they don't really have a chance of keeping to themselves to the level we do.
>>
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But what if you turned Hamlet into The Tempest?
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Does this count
>>
Tragedy is generally shit, because the Japanese aren't very good at pulling it off. Their idea of tragedy is just to kill off the MC at the end of the show and hope it works. And usually that just means a shitty ending. Some shows can pull it off.

LOGH wasn't tragedy but it was pretty tragic, since almost everyone you care about dies. Gungrave is one example of tragedy that was actually great, I cried at the end, for real. I guess Geass counts, but I am reluctant to call that "tragedy", it just doesn't fit the show in my mind. Requiem for the Phantom is an example of a shitty execution leading to a terrible ending (go read the VN, way better).
>>
>>122025856
Not at all.
>>
If you're talking classic Greek tragedy, there's not much of it in anime because it's been played out. Even Sophocles and Euripides had to make major innovations to the genre to keep people interested.

If you're talking about tragedy in general, I disagree because just about every anime nowadays has elements of tragedy shoehorned in. I mean even in 90% of those dumb harems that come out the MC has some tragic bullshit past. Chuuni teenagers eat that shit up. And the anime that revolve around a tragic main character almost inevitably end up being garbage (Guilty Crown, Valvrave, etc.)
>>
>>122026100
But Guilty Crown and VVV were tragic, in the same way that a trainwreck is a tragedy.
>>
>>122012123
Throne of Blood is also pretty good and does a good job of translating MacBeath to a Japanese setting.
>>
>>122025868
I don't understand why writers ignore the time proven successful layout of Shakespearean tragedies and other well known one's like Epics.


I mean holy shit, take the layout and use it as a general guide for your story.
>>
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Glad I've found this thread.

Directing my attention to that anime about Lovecraftian monsters being moefied got me thinking: people aren't afraid of monsters anymore. They likely haven't been in a long time.

That's expected. That's comprehensible. Something once terrifying being regarded as jokes in a later era is nothing new.

The problem is, when I sat and tried to think what people today are in general afraid of, I got nothing. Not monsters, not gods, not tyranical govenrments, not crime, not loneliness, not pollution, not WW3. Terrorist groups like ISIS are instead looked up to, considering people all over the world keep leaving their homes and families to migrate and join their ranks. People practically sell their souls and loyalty to super corporations that make no hidden effort to exploit them and trample over their rights.

Is humanity that weary of life, we've stopped fearing anything as a species?

I ask this because I'm personally a sucker for tragedy, too, but I feel people have gotten too callous and numb for such genre.
>>
>>122026100
>because it's been played out.
Not really, enough of the population is too stupid to read a book. Therefore most people are completely unaware of a true Greek tragedy.
>>
>>122006020
Traditionally a tragedy is the tale of a great man brought low by his own flaws. The death of the main character is common but not necessary for the form. In the Greek tradition, Tragedy and Comedy were the precursors to what we would now call genres, as in they both had their own tropes and plot conventions, but tragedy is common to all cultures, so strict adherence to the Greek form isn't necessary for something to be tragedy.
>>
>>122026681
They're scared of losing their wealth. Write King Lear in a modern setting, from the viewpoint of Kent or Edgar, where they lose all their money to corporate shenanigans, and watch people shit their pants.
>>
>>122026477
>I don't understand why writers try to be creative instead of using cookie cutter story layouts
The classics are all well and good, but there's so much more to writing.
>>
>>122026681
And then there are other people who will say that today's world is afraid of everything. Afraid of terrorists, school shootings, vaccination, bacteria, gluten, etc.

I think these vast, sweeping generalizations about humanity is dumb.
>>
>>122026681

That's the influence of postmodernism encouraging the subversion of fictional convention, not people actually being less afraid of shit. People as whole still have personal phobias and shit, it's just stories don't seek to capitalize on that as much. Go tell any experienced therapist that people don't fear things anymore and you'll get laughed out of the room.

Tl;DR, stop overthinking shit because somebody drew Yog-Sothoth with tits.
>>
>>122027051
>is dumb
My shame is immeasurable.
>>
>>122017983
This is a tragic situation but the same kind of thing happens all of the time in Nip stuff. It's just regular drama.
>>
>>122021006
I mean, School days is shit but it is also actual tragedy.
>>
>>122026943
I think the anon is vouching for solid established plot structure, rather than reusing the same old stories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP3c1h8v2ZQ

Not every story is Cinderella, but there are a lot that have the same basic shape of the plot and are good stories. Hell, you can even have basically shaped plots coming together and intertwining to have a brand new shape.
>>
>>122026933
>Write King Lear in a modern setting, from the viewpoint of Kent or Edgar, where they lose all their money to corporate shenanigans
Hmm. Sounds reasonable. Never been good with economics myself though, but after reading some of Orwell's Homage to Catalonia these past few days, I might have an idea of how to view it from a more political angle.
>>
why do u want if it sad? happy funk things r best just enjoy bro lol
>>
>>122027242
orwell was tha guy who wrote 1984 ya?
>>
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>>122027054
>>122027051
Oh? What are you afraid of, Anon-kun?
>>
>>122027392
Right.
>>
>>122027392
Homage to Catalonia is his memoir of his time fighting for the Commies during the Spanish Civil War. The Spanish Civil War is a tragedy if you look at it from the view of the Spanish Communists.
>>
>>122027401

Spiders.
>>
>>122027477
yo wso was ww2 if yuo are a nazi lol. but wait uh orwell is not anime what the fuck gett out
>>
>>122007790
Spike fully intended to die back when he betrayed the syndicate. His not dying wasnt part of the plan and he was fixiated on that past for the rest of his living life.

He figured that all out whilst on the Bebop and went back to face the music rather than run from the past whilst constantly looking over his shoulder at it.

Wasnt really a tragedy in that respect.
>>
>>122027054
Ah, shut up. A few days ago, that video about a bum getting shot down by the police spread around the internet, causing people all over the world go all 'OMG SAVAGES' 'HOW HORRIBLE *downboat*' 'CZECH UR PRIVILEGES, COP-SCUM' on facebook and other social websites.

Two days later, everyone's attention was centered on Kardashian's deceptively lit dress.
>>
>>122026881
Narrative complexity has advanced a great deal since the times when classic tragedies were written. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that the format is only rarely revived nowadays. I mean, I recognize their history, but reading something like Aeschylus' Oresteia is more of a chore than a thrill.

Also, personally, I don't think anime as a medium really lends itself to tragedy to begin with. There are plenty of other media where it's done better and more frequently.
>>
>>122027677

What does the collective consciousness having a short attention span have to do with personal fears? You're conflating two completely different types of psychology here.
>>
>>122004817
I don't know if this has been said, but the vast majority of anime is an adaptation of some manga, LN, or VN series or is a TV series.

Longer series tend to not have an overarching structure, although there are exceptions like Breaking Bad, etc. However, there are TONS of episodes or story arcs of tons of shows that follow the classic tragedy structure.

A lot of them aren't even good, just like how there were tons of shitty tragedies in literature that we don't know about anymore.
>>
>>122004817
Most "tradgedies" in anime are hamfisted and the sadness shoved in your face with little girls crying about the clearly bad & unfortunate thing that happened, if it's not clear, it's repeated by the characters numerous times.
>>
>>122027764
Well it's a play, it's not really meant to be read like a novel. There's no description of physical traits or actions. It's all on the actor. I would imagine the script for the LotR movies to be incredibly dull when you just read it. I agree that reading the Oresteia isn't all to great, but it is much better to see it performed.
>>
>>122004817

depends on how you define tragedy.

if it's just that lots of sad stuff happen, then no there are plenty in the genre.
if it's more technical, including dead protagonist, then much fewer.

i watch shows that are entertaining.
you'd be a semi-retarded sperg to seriously watch anime for technically defined tragedy.
there are far better media for that.
>>
>>122027772
>collective consciousness
>>
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Would Shiki qualify as a tragedy?
>>
>>122027234
>>122026477
The structure will eventually become bland and hence boring after too much use.
>>
>>122027928
I've always wondered: does that Shiki have anything to do with Nasu's Shikis?
>>
>>122027900
Yeah that's a fair point. At the same time, while yeah I've never seen it performed, I have a hard time seeing how even the best actors could sell it without updating everything to a more modern structure.
>>
>>122028057
Nothing at all.

>>122027928
You could make an argument for it, but I see it as having the same problems as calling Shinsekai Yori a tragedy. Both are too morally ambiguous to have an easy time with.
>>
>>122027905
Tragedy is supposed to move you with a good depiction of how something great and possibly beautiful falls to pieces because of flaws in human nature. Makoto could have a good, healthy relationship, but he is overcome by his need to stick his dick into everything he sees. Kerry can be happy with his family, he clearly loves all of his children and his wife to death, but his rigid moral philosophy prevents him from pursuing a happy route. A little girl being struck and killed by a drunk driver is sad, but not a tragedy. When a father resolves to become sober for his daughter's sake but because of the weakness of his character, breaks at a crucial point and drowns his sorrows, and then kills his daughter, who had gone out to look for him because he was out for so long, in a drunk driving accident is a tragedy.
>>
>>122027926
WOAH

THIS IS MUCH COOLER THAN MULTI ROTORS
>>
>>122028126
exactly this.
>>
I don't know why you guys like Shakespeare so much. There's too much melodrama in his works, too much comedy inserted within tragic scenes and his characters don't feel like real people at all.

Ancient Greek tragedy is so much better.
>>
>>122005555
What is the Breaking Bad of anime?
>>
>>122028343
Kara no Kyoukai 7. Lio is a drug lord, becomes nuts, changes his appearance, and gets killed.
>>
>>122028325
It was the anime of its time, pandering to the plebeian mindset.
Today its just so old and hard to figure out whats going on so people like it because its regarded so highly.
>>
>>122028343
inb4 desu notu
>>
>>122027864
Tragedy isn't meant to be subtle. Tragedy in real life leaves people destroys peoples lives and leaves them sobbing wrecks, tragedy in fiction has a similar effects on characters. This is true in both it's classic and modern forms.
>>
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>>122028126

again, more power to you if this is your definition of tragedy.

a loli crippled in an accident without human flaws is tragedy enough if it depicts the loss and consequences well.
>>
>>122028433
> pandering to the plebeian mindset.

Yeh, nah. Shakespeare wrote for kings and the upper classes.
>>
>>122028433
Because Shakespeare could fucking write like a god when he wanted to. Yes, there's plenty of lowbrow humor and stupid puns but there are nuggets of gold in there, and if you deny the existence of the artistry that exists in Shakespeare because "it's popular" and "it pandered to the masses," you are a goddamn Philistine and a disgusting hipster.

>hurr these ancient statues and priceless artifacts pander to the non-halal masses and are too hard to bastardize into some muhammad sounding bullshit so let's break it.
That's what you sound like.
>>
>>122004817

>Is Tragedy a lost genre to anime?
What are you talking about OP?
Don't we get at least 5 tragic animu every season because studios have to pander to the shit taste of Otaku.
>>
>>122028616
That's not "his" definition of tragedy. That's THE definition of tragedy.

You're just making up your own vague definition that basically boils down to "is sad."
>>
>>122028433
>It was the anime of its time, pandering to the plebeian mindset.

Completely retarded/10

In Shakespeare's time, only the top 10% of the population could even read and write, let alone enjoy theatre.
>>
>>122028631
Shakespeare sort of did both. There is pleb-level humor and pandering in a lot of his works alongside the classy writing style and themes.
>>
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>>122028433

Yes, but you're insulting a lot of English majors out there.

He does have some pithy and timeless quotes:
"We must not make a scarecrow of the law,
Setting it up to fear the birds of prey,
And let it keep one shape, till custom make it
Their perch and not their terror."
>>
Kiminozo has tragic characters. Hayase being unable to give up on Takayuki, even when Suzumiya is in a coma and even when she gets out of the coma is a flaw in her character and leads to major conflicts and heartbreak.

If in your example, said loli is sad that the accident happened, and her parents are friends are sad, and the consequences of the accident are sad, then it's just a sad story. If you try to consciously avoid tragic arcs, and just have everyone get shit on by fate instead of their own actions, you end up with garbage like bumping into the boy around the corner while you have toast in your mouth, the cute blonde girl falling out the sky, your parents are overseas and a cute girl appears on your doorstep in the buff with a note pinned to her stomach saying that she's your foreigner cousin. In short, your scenario, if it consciously avoids giving characters flaws that will damn them and instead has to contrive circumstances where fate and God must actively shit on lives to bring some sort of emotional reaction in the audience, you get an anime I would drop in the first two episodes.
>>
>>122029356
>>122028616
Fuck, meant to reply to this.
>>
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>>122028827

i don't have to agree with that bullshit self-proclamed definition, let alone someone in india, or china, or namibia, or japan.

literature is a soft and malleable subject, so assuming a hard definition of tragedy is a tragic exercise in hubris (and a sign of having too few stamps on your passport).
if you want something harder, go study engineering.
>>
>>122029565
What the hell are you even talking about?
>>
>>122005799
Popular example:
>Asuka is first seen as a confident and skilled pilot
>Things get rough
>Her strongest traits begin to work against her
>Pride causes her to burn bridges, realization that her level of skill does not allow for her level of pride
>Mental invasion. Weaknesses become fully exposed, couldn't escape because of her pride.

>EoE
>First major scene is her being defiled while vulnerable
>Later learns that the origin of her weakness, and the one person she desires, her mother, was inside Unit 02
>Confidence restored
>Tragic flaw of pride: AT field is shattered while acting cocky
>Asuka is brutally murdered by several copies of the Spear of Longinus, a weapon that pierces the target's soul and will
>Her mother, the source of her newfound joy, is eaten alive by giant vultures
>It all returns to nothing
>Asuka is willed back to life, only to be defiled in rebuilds

>1. A likeable protagonist with a major flaw in their character.
At first glance, she is adored by all.
>2. A central conflict that causes this protagonist to fall from grace as a result of this flaw.
The neglect from, and the death of her mother
>3. A part where the protagonist admits to their mistakes, but only after it is too late for them to make amends.
Amends are made with herself and her mother.

Fall from grace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weK5m6Jn0zY

Rise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EG4u8dy0Qc

Death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH32Chen5Vo
>>
>>122004894
Faggots on /a/ can't even stand drama
>>
>>122029565
Do I need to go to India to pick up a copy of the Mahabharata? Do I need to have visited to Japan and Greece to read a paper on the structure of Kabuki drama and how it compares to Ancient Greek drama? Do I need to live in Japan to watch anime and post on /a/? Denouncing a well documented and supported definition because someone reads in their local library instead of talking with local folk in a Hong Kong pub and to poopoo literature as a soft and malleable subject is much closer to hubris than your example. In fact, it's ironic that your post, where you accuse others of excessive and arrogant behavior, has excessive and arrogant behavior. But because the definition of irony is soft and malleable, I might be wrong.
>>
>>122028325
Shakespeare was a poet. His work was mostly popular at the time because of how lyrical and beautiful his dialogue/monologues were.

The comedy scenes in Shakespeare were usually written in prose so the commoners could understand them while the dramatic scenes were written in poetry.

Greek plays don't work as well in the modern age because they rely on archaic structural elements like the greek chorus, and the whole pro/deu/tritangonist acting conceit just comes across as kind bizarre.
>>
I think that the only anime I have watched that resembles a tragedy was ZOE:IDOLO
>>
>>122030296
I saw a recording a performance of something by Sophocles where the greek chorus was a bunch of guys in suits, and they marched around the stage whenever they had lines. It was definitely bizarre.
>>
>>122008194
Realizing this, some of the subplots in Kaiba count as tragedies.
Especially Chronico's tale.
>>
I don't watch qt anime gurls to feel sad.
>>
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>>122030268

yes.
you're invoking a universal definition, so it better be universal.
otherwise, use the correct terminology and call it 'greek tragedy' or such if that's what you really mean.

even within that framework, i think there are a few anime that follow the recipes of greek tragedy.
>>
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>>122030782
>yes.
>>
Classic sports manga were always the best tragedies
>>
>>122030767
I was halfway through typing out a post disagreeing with you, but then I realized that if you think of Chroniko's story as focusing on the aunt it fits pretty well.
>>
What is Shigatsu then?
>>
>>122032278
Melodrama. The emotional crux of the story is based in circumstances dictated by fate rather than by the characters' flaws, and so instead of the motivations of the characters and their actions being what draws you to the show, it's the feels. Also, it is literally a melodrama, as melos is music.
>>
>>122032278
boring
But I started it, and I'm going to finish it.
>>
To call "tragedy" nothing but its original Greek roots is stupid as shit. The Hellenistic peoples had very strict guidelines about what they considered tragedy - things must be a foregone conclusion, it must be the result of hubris, and always it's about powerful people falling from power. Shakespeare took a similar approach, It's not Mr. Lear at the gas station but KING Lear, but in the modern Era people started experimenting and decided that those labels were stupid and don't apply to everything. Even normal people have places to fall, and they can be ruined without reaching rock bottom. Catharsis wasn't always a good thing either. Think, say, Requiem for a Dream or Death of a Salesman.

Tragedy, ultimately, is about loss and decline. That's really all that matters. That doesn't mean that any anime with those elements is a tragedy, though. It has to be the backbone.

>>122030931
AnJ is definitely not a goddamn tragedy, but say, Texhnolyze, Saikano, Yosuga no Sora*. Tragic endings don't make tragedies, happy endings don't make not-tragedies.

*They drowned

>>122032404
>>122032278
Shigatsu is not tragedy, but that's not the reason. Look at Greek theater. Half of all tragedies have a fate show up at some point and forsee what's going to happen. Oedipus purposely tries to avoid his fate, but gets dragged back into it.

Shigatsu is not tragedy because it's not about loss, fundamentally.
>>122028831
What are you, an idiot?
The theater was open to everyone, for a long time it was considered burlesque and low class entertainment.
>>
>>122011019

>Being a retard
>>
>>122032887
Then pray tell why the fuck Gunbuster is a tragedy. Educate us.
>>
Would Homunculus be considered a tragedy series because of its ending?
>>
>>122032745
higurashi
>>
>>122035823
Not a tragedy
>>
>>122030153
Asuka really wasn't fleshed out enough to be considered a tragic character.
>>
>>122036199
Yes she was, she was the most character development.
>>
>>122036343
Is this bait?
Shinji > Misato > Rei >>>>> Asuka
in terms of how fleshed out / developed the characters were by the beginning to the end of the show.
>>
>shitstorm hours ago
>come back
>thread still alive
And the same arguments are going on holy shit
>>
>>122036530
Somebody either hasn't seen the show or didn't pay attention.

Shinji just gets a bit more angsty and a bit less avoidant, Misato repeats her old mistakes, Rei only gained a will.

Asuka went from a grandstander to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EG4u8dy0Qc

I provided a somewhat thorough analysis, and provided direct evidence. What the fuck have you provided?
>>
>>122032745
>*They drowned
That was old three years ago, update your trolling.
>>
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Of course not, Urobutcher is the master after all.
>>
>>122024512
I need sauce. NOW. Please, prove him wrong somebody.
>>
>>122036833
You can't just downplay Shinji, Misato, and Rei's plights and expect me to take your argument seriously. Almost all of Asuka's screentime in NGE is devoted to comic relief and lighthearted shenanigans, we hardly know a single thing about her until her hamfisted 'edgy' backstory in 23+24. Unlike the previous three who actually explored desire to communicate with others outside of themselves and had well-established bonds with other characters, Asuka remains a poorly executed ripoff of Kushina and Nadia. Keep in mind this is only in comparison, however, I still think she's a great character and personally is my second favorite in the show due to how much I could relate to her.
>>
>>122038651
>Almost all of Asuka's screentime in NGE is devoted to comic relief and lighthearted shenanigans
I disagree.
>Asuka remains a poorly executed ripoff of Kushina and Nadia
Try harder.
>>
>>122038842
What a flawless and utterly magnificent rebuttal.
If Kushina and Nadia were never created/existed, Asuka wouldn't exist. Yet Shinji, Misato, and Rei all would.
>>
>>122039126
He wouldn't have created series without Nadia.

Please provide actual proof.
>>
>>122039340
Uh, what? He most certainly would have. He suffered from depression during Nadia's production, which resulted in Eva's presentation of darker themes dealing with his experiences, but that has nothing to do with the kind of characters he created within the show. Misato spawned from Anno's love of Shoujo, Rei and Shinji spawned from Anno himself; regardless of whether he would experience what he did with Nadia, those three characters would show up in his work whereas Asuka probably would not if Kushina and Nadia were never a thing.
You make it really evident that Eva is the only work by Anno you've ever seen, therefore I can't really consider this argument a serious one. Thanks for trying, I guess.
>>
>>122039552
>assumptions
>no concrete argument
Pray tell, why would he create characters that reflect his negatives if we weren't depressed?
>>
>>122039340
More like he wouldn't have created it without Ideon
>>
>>122039867
See: >>122039610
I made a simple argument, and I got insulted for it.
>>
>>122039927
Not him, but that's not the point.
Who cares what influenced what? As if because Eva itself was influenced by mecha, it is now somehow a lesser work than mecha it was influenced by.
This argument is irrelevant to the question whether Asuka is a better character than others.
Also
>I got insulted
We're on 4chan. Nobody cares. You're supposed to have a tough skin here.
>>
>>122004817
What is the modern day Othello?

I watched this high school sports movie on FXM where this white guy betrays everyone on his whole entire team. I tuned in a little after the beginning and I thought it was a very engaging sports/teenage drama film because I thought it really hit close with home with all the high school drama I've seen in real life and anime.

I later found out that it was based on Othello by Shakespeare. I seriously thought it was a based on a true story.

Is there anything like that in anime? I heard the count of monte cristo was pretty good
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>>122040035
I have feelings, you know.
>>
>>122040223
Then fuck off back to tumblr where someone gives a shit.
>>
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>>122005026
>>122009979
capped for your pleasure
>>
fma is tragic in a lot of ways

its not perfect but tragedy isnt lost its pretty hard to do
>>
>>122040717
>>122040035
>can't follow a conversation
>can't recognize when someone is joking
Autismo kindly depart.
>>
>>122042903
FMA has a big fat happy ending where nobody dies
>>
>>122005555
In order for a tragedy to be tragic it has to have tragic things happen. Walt got everything he wanted in the end and his family were millionaires.
>>
>>122008674
breaking bad was a cliffhanger ending...
>>
>>122010106
Manga because of Puck's ass.
>>
>>122043156
Hohenheim almost died in a way that made sense but lol nope
>>
what was the last "good" tragedy anime you watched ?
>>
>>122005911
Sounds like anime to me
>>
>>122016848
>Blood for the blood god
>>
>>122005911
Umineko, Hirugashi and Saya no Uta have none of those elements.
>>
>>122004894
What, do you think they were driving their focus groups insane or something?
>>
>>122042903
>I have watched 3 anime
Fuck off.
>>
>>122044422
Madoka
>>
>>122043189
>poor family man gets diagnosed with cancer
>becomes a criminal to support his family and to pay for cancer treatment
>manages to get enough money to pay for everything and give his family the life they deserve
>becomes corrupted by the power it gives him
>his family hates him and wants nothing to do with him

the whole point is that sure he got what he wanted, but at what price?
>>
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>>122017983
You got that right. And >>122011058 building up to be one
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>Manga's name is literally Song of Goat
>trag-aoidiā
>Tragedy
>>
>>122004817
Tokyo Ghoul is a tragedy
but the anime fucked everything up
>>
>>122047341
>Tokyo Ghoul is a tragedy
No, the fanbase is.
>>
>>122008280
>unable to comprehend that other people's minds can work very differently from your own
>>
Didn't Bahamut just air recently? Its pretty emphased as a tragedy.
>>
What makes a tragedy tragedy?
>>
>430 replies

Bravo /a/, autism has consumed you.
>>
What about Yuuki Yuuna?
>>
>>122007790
>spike
>>>/mlp/
>>
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Surprised nobody's brought this up in the thread yet. Granted it is old, so it might be off topic considering the OP specified "nowadays".
>>
>>122022266
>>122021870
The Grail isn't omnipotent because it needs a "plan". In the case Kerry, who had spent his whole life using utilitarianism to justify and decide how he was going to help the world, the only plan he could really offer is "save the many at the expense of the few."

Now, this means that pure or corrupted Grail, someone's going to suffer for this plan to work. However, where Angra Maniyu comes in is its ability to interpret this basic belief of "Save the many at the expense of the few" to allow it to kill a massive proportion of humanity or inflict curses on all of it. Hell, if it just interpreted his method as "killing" it would have saved Earth by killing all humans.
>>
>>122017907
>>>122040154

gankutsuou made the not-so tragedy source material into a tragedy by pitting several main casts into a duel. i'm leaning towards the anime ending as the best way to end the story.
>>
>>122004817
Madoka
Macross
Gundam
>>
>>122053036
Oh wait, no he didn't I'm retarded.
>>
>>122004817
No, are you mentally ill? 80% of the anime I've seen are tragedies.
>>
>>122004817
More or less anything I think is good becomes a lost genre to anime.
>>
>>122053041
>The Grail isn't omnipotent because it needs a "plan".
Citation?
>>
>>122005911
This sounds more like LN's than VN's. VN's are shit as well, tho;
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>>122053228
Maybe you should learn what Tragedy means
>>
>>122055397
So is anime, whats your point.
>>
>>122038077
https://mega.co.nz/#F!NhtDGLAY!NlVGpZrYx4I2V_Q6QPs9ug
>>
>Not one mention of Leiji Matsumoto.

He basically invented tragic anime.
>>
>>122009867
Man, I'd kill for a Richard III adaptation. It'd be cool to see the magnificent bastard himself animated.
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