It's really not good and feels very distant from the original

Fucker looks better than most Fate character.

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Well anon, in this case I'm certain you'll love Prisma Illya.

Mordred existing invalidates any argument against it.

>>121846780
Apocrypha should have had Night of Wallachia trigger and slaughter everybody in the area.

While Vlad was still alive.

I never get why some people get so hopped up on analyzing themes and writing with things like anime and manga culture. Such intentions certainly exist in the writing, but it's the equivalent of deeply analyzing young adult fiction. You either enjoy the story or you don't, and there's plenty of "truly deep" literature out there to dissect.

The good thing about Apocrypha is that characters are divided into several faction. And all factions get approximately the same screentime. You very quickly understand who are the important characters in each faction and who merely pawns. Although even there are a few surprises. With current third book, most of the characters are still alive. And those who had died were either just pawns or characters that got their story arc and died in climactic battle.

>>121846780
Whole Apocrypha was created under Nasu's supervision, like Zero.
Nasu devised and planned majority of the story elements for Apocrypha and he personally scrapped David, St.George, Kintoki and Benkei out of the story and together with Takeuchi designed Chiron, Avicebron & Achilles (addition of Mordred was Takeuchi's idea, which Nasu approved). Nasu also wrote story background and development for many Apocrypha's characters (for example Shirou Kotomine is his work).
So basically Apocrypha IS definitely canon, just different world like Extra. According to Nasu only main difference between Apocrypha's world and Zero/SN's world is presence of the Ruler class.

>>121846780
Apocrypha is totally vacant of any thought or meaning. Nasu's works have been about a lot of things, but in the past they could be traced back to some core philosophical theme.

Kara no Kyoukai is about emptiness and a person's individual meaning/identity.
Tsukihime is about eternity and death.
F/SN is about what it means to be a hero and the definition of justice.
DDD isn't complete yet, so it's harder to say, but besides many themes which are repeated primarily from Rakkyou and F/SN, it's about desire and coveting.

And yet... Mahoyo, Fate/Extra, CCC, and Apocrypha are about... nothing much, really, even as they cover a broad range of topics. Actually, CCC and Apocrypha are pretty clearly about fanservice and pandering, but Mahoyo is a mainline work and there is not really much of a statement to be had in it besides "these characters are especially special snowflakes." It seems the more money Nasu throws around, the worse his actual content gets.

>>121847259
>addition of Mordred was Takeuchi's idea
What a surprise

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Im interested in Apocrypha given I didnt have the chance to decide whatever its good or not... would like to hear some opinions from people who read it.

>>121847330
But Mahoyo, Extra and CCC cleary have themes behind. You should actually read them.

Apocrypha is just fun, it doesn't try to be anything more.

>>121846780
Why are you just posting some fags tumblr post?

>>121847330
Mahou Tsukai no Yoru is about the consumer society and how that has made and changes the world.
Extra is about war, is it good? bad? what does it do to people. What is justifiable in war, etc
CCC is an extension of Heaven's Feel about the dark side of women and their love.

>>121847767
>CCC is an extension of Heaven's Feel about the dark side of women and their love.
Which I suppose is the justification for all these titties flying everywhere and for Gilgamesh flashing his glorious gleaming dong upon the world. The dark side of women is apparently 1/10 mother goddess, 2/10 cleavage, 2/10 erotical black hole, 5/10 completely unrelated bullshit, and all totally pointless fanservice.

>>121847767
I have no doubt that Nasu, who has consistently demonstrated a pretty respectable understanding of philosophy, would have been able to write these if he really tried. As it stands, however, Mahoyo and F/E are hardly focused on exploring those issues in particular as Nasu's previous works had been with what >>121847330 said. When it came to KnK, Tsukihime, and F/SN, you could tell perfectly how many of the core characters within all three works offered their own unique perspective on the concepts in question, and they all played off one another in interesting ways.

One can just say "Ryougi, Kirie Fujou, Fujino Asagami, Souren Araya" and anyone who understands KnK already knows how those four characters are associated with one another in terms of emptiness and how their identities reflect each other. One can do similar things with "Shiki, Arcueid, Ciel, Roa" regarding how each covers a separate but important outlook on eternity and death.

Now, you can try to play similar games with Mahoyo regarding modern advancement and, in particular, how society has gradually switched from a spiritual to a materialistic worldview and how this coincides with declining magic, but then, Mahoyo approaches that decline in a way that almost always seems contradictory from the rest of the Nasuverse. Only (the fucking ridiculously named) Lugh Beowulf seems to deal with it in a way consistent with the other works. I can see why a lot of people get the impression of Aoko and Alice as Mary Sues, given this.

Continued.

>>121847955
The concept of war is somewhat explored in F/E, yes, but while it's something that's brought up and thought about on occasion, it's not really explored in any concrete or overarching fashion. You basically have some pontification from Hakuno about it, Archer's backstory, and perhaps some insubstantial banter with enemy characters here or there, but almost all of that is concentrated in Twice H. Pieceman's enormous spiel at the end, which is great and all, but it's honestly nowhere near the thoughtfulness of previous works. Which I suppose is to be expected, since F/E is less a VN and more an RPG, I guess.

>>121847955
The concept of war is somewhat explored in F/E, yes, but while it's something that's brought up and thought about on occasion, it's not really explored in any concrete or overarching fashion. You basically have some pontification from Hakuno about it, Archer's backstory, and perhaps some insubstantial banter with enemy characters here or there, but almost all of that is concentrated in Twice H. Pieceman's enormous spiel at the end, which is great and all, but it's honestly nowhere near the thoughtfulness of previous works. Which I suppose is to be expected, since F/E is less a VN and more an RPG, I guess.

>>CCC is an extension of Heaven's Feel about the dark side of women and their love.
Which I suppose is the justification for all these titties flying everywhere and for Gilgamesh flashing his glorious gleaming dong upon the world. The dark side of women is apparently 1/10 mother goddess, 2/10 cleavage, 2/10 erotical black hole, 5/10 completely unrelated bullshit, and all totally pointless fanservice.

>>Apocrypha, no idea, since it's not finished.
Or, more probable, it doesn't have any sort of intrinsic meaning or value at all and is just an excuse to indulge in a circlejerk over yet another Saber clone. Or trap moe. Or whatever sells in Japan these days.

Please read Fate/Extra Visual Fanbook, particularly page 079. Extra and CCC are indeed in a parallel reality to F/SN and what would be considered the "core" Nasuverse canon, however, there are only two differences between F/SN and Extra or CCC. The first difference is that the Moon Cell exists. However, otherwise, the world of Fate/Extra shares the exact same events as that of F/SN up until the point when a "certain major incident" in the 1970s causes the world's mana to start drying up. As of the 2030s, the world's mana was completely gone. These are explicitly said to be the causes for the split off into its own separate universe and everything else is essentially the same.

>>121847767
>CCC is an extension of Heaven's Feel about the dark side of women and their love.

Not really

CCC is about "What does it mean to be human", love in every sense of the word both in terms of lust and purity, and the meaning behind humanity as a whole. Like "Anyone who would give up just because there was no hope and chance to suceed, they would never have a chance living on this damn planet in the first place"

CCC wasn't about the dark nature of girls at all, so much as just showing "Everyone's love has many sides to it, both lust, fetish, and purity are part of it for everyone". It wasn't a womens love, it was everyone's love this time. BB wasn't a Dark Sakura where it showed the cruel and twisted part of love, she more of a Homura from Madoka in the end. Rather than "This is my love, it's warped and shit", it was more her prioritizing a result above everything even if the rest of the world had to fall while doing it, as she tried to save the one she loved while acting like the villain in an outward way as people misunderstand.

There was also some "Humans, we could reach so much further once we leave behind this planet, and aim for the starts" thrown in there.

Nasu calls CCC the heart of F/SN as a whole, the answer to the whole series. The themes seen throughout CCC, is all various shit from F/SN that's seen a little deeper. Like when Hakuno says "Fuck you" to that Aristotle because even if it's hopeless and humanity has chosen its own destruction, he refuses to surrender even if it's hopeless just like the theme in UBW at the end.

It's a game Nasu wrote from the ground up, rather than an extension of HF at all, it's F/SN as a whole and the answer to the entire series if you dig into CCC and read more. There's already a clear difference between the female leads this time. It's not "I'm so warped, can you still love someone warped" so much, but rather "Everyone's love has some lust and strangeness, it's all about balance. Don't go so far either direc

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>>121848281
blah blah, it's explained in this chart here

The reason the worlds split are because Overcount 1999 going off too early and fucking up everything.

>>121847110
Just to be serious for a minute, the point of storytelling is to create a connection with the audience. That's the reason why we don't just drop whatever anime we're watching and pick up a philosophy textbook or something. And because of this, the most important requirement is that the story is something you care about, that's what gives the themes and ideas their power.

Is there an epub (even unedited) for volume 2 of Apocrypha yet? It's the only thing keeping me from reading it.

>>121847110
That's an absurd claim to make, "things like anime and manga culture" covers a huge variety of genres, demographics, etc. You can't make sweeping claims like "they are all shallow and not worth analyzing at all ever".

>>121848595
Wait, is the event that causes Extra's magicless world the same thing that caused the Land of Steel in Notes?

>>121848524
BB isn't even trying to be loved, she's just trying to attain the result of saving the one that couldn't be saved, while not caring how she self-destructs in the process. Blossom and BB have some Shirou in them if anything, and Hakuno has to fuck some self-consciousness into them.

While at one point he starts beating his head on a wall trying to get anything through this machine's head and show it how to act human and stop trying to sacrifice itself for the greater good to help people.

In the end both the boy and girl that are fakes end up becoming real, thus completing their journey throughout both games.

>>121846780
>d feels very distant from the original aesthetic of F/SN and F/Z.
You mean the aesthetic that people made fun of for its amateurish quality? Including people on this board?

>>121848784
It's similar, there are even some Notes references in CCC.

However in this case the destruction of the world started far too early due to a failed ritual that caused a polar shift and magic started dying. Magic isn't dead, but its been dying for about fifty years now at least. Its at the point where any spells are pretty hard to cast. Magic had to combine with technology in order to keep going in any form.

It's like, in the early before Notes, before shit really went to shit. Yet it's still on the verge of really going to shit since Gaia is dying now.

>>121848934
It's the difference between "dying" and "dead", however it's started far too early.

The failed resurrection of the Dark Six is to blame.

>>121848018
>Which I suppose is the justification for all these titties flying everywhere

CCC has some fanservice on top, but the story underneath it is solid as fuck. Nasu compared it to Ataraxia more than anything. It's got a lot of comedy and less than serious moments, but between it all there's a lot of heart, some sadness, and some powerful moments.

>>121848981
The failure of the Aylesbury ritual causes all magic and Gain to die? Would it have been worse if they had succeeded?

>>121849811
We don't know how it would have worked if it succeeded, but it was supposedly a really big fuck-up in this case.

It's like water going down the bathtub drain, except it's mana, and also billions died in the process. Ritual went off twenty years too early for one thing.

There's two main interview questions that lay down how the death of the planet started in Extra. This is one such entry

>Mana Depletion
>Overcount 1999. In 1970, a ritual performed in a certain local city in England in 1970 set off the depletion of the Earth's magic energy filling its atmosphere.
>It caused a pole shift, a crustal movement of global magnitude later to be called the Great Collapse.
>Having survived through two periods of decline – the end of the Age of Gods and the beginning of the AD calendar – magecraft finally became a fairy tale of the past.
>In the EXTRA world, all that remains of the old world magi are the Atlasian alchemists of Egypt.

>>121847836
There is also all about humanity potential. Also, even with the fanservice, Kiara is pretty much like Twice, a walking Nasu's philosophical stuff made a character.

You should really see behind the tits and ass surface.

>>121846780
Fate/Stay Night is just porn with plot. TMfags are delusional to think it's any deep or well done beyond that.

Apocrypha is awesome. Fun fights, decent plot, no real clear good vs evil to bog it down with ideals clashing more than anything else. Anyone looking for a deep, thought provoking plot in the A/M/LN/VN is a moron in the first place. Shut up and enjoy it, or go read any highly praised novel in the last four hundred years.

>>121851861
It really isn't, even if you just read it for shit blowing up. The first volume somehow managed to make every fight scene in it boring, even Mordred vs Siegfried which just turned into the shittiest beamspam this side of DBZ. I'm not even mad about that; it's impressive that someone could take such a cool premise and manage to make it so unbelievably dull to read. The later volumes had the plot shitting itself, the worst, most out-of-the-blue romance ever, and an ending that manages to crap all over the already sub-par story.

Don't read Apoc. It's not worth the trouble.

Oh right. Astolfo best character. shitty Jeanne fanboys go home.

>>121847259
>addition of Mordred was Takeuchi's idea
Who would have guessed.
Shirou Kotomine is shit though

>>121854166
honeslty who would've guessed takeuchi shoving saber into everything!??!
what a surprise.

>>121854166
>Shirou Kotomine is shit though
>not being gay for Marik Ishtar
Piss off.

>>121847259
>addition of Mordred was Takeuchi's idea
Fucking Takeuchi
At least Mordred is actually good

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>>121856737
>Muh Shadowrealm

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>>121857183
Look at these perfectly chiseled chocolate abs. How can you not want a piece of this?

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>>121857019
Will we ever see Mord and Kairi animated?
Sieg and Jeanne?
Astolfo, Karna, and Vlad?
This is something that's worth a series for sure.

>>121857935
Not in at least another 4-5 years.

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>>121857935
I need this animated.

>>121858258
Why is she flustered?

>>121858330
She's standing in the presence of the coolest guy.