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Serious question. How the fuck are people in Fate/Stay Night

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Serious question.

How the fuck are people in Fate/Stay Night able to hold their own against servants when it has been repeatedly stated that servants are supposed to be some of the most powerful entities in the entire setting?

Fate/Zero never had this problem, because there was not a single instance where a normal guy went toe to toe with a servant. The only instance that even came close was Lancer facing down Kiri and telling him to back off. Kiri didn't even try to run or fight or anything because they both knew Lancer would kill him in the blink of an eye even with his decades of experience, magic and training.

I realize Fate/Zero came out much later, so was the power level retconned later or something?

Servants are stated to be able to overpower and kill Dead Apostle Ancestors, who are beings that the only mortals who have a chance against either have super hax like Mystic Eyes of Death Perception or are literally the strongest magi and priests there are like Lorelei Barthomeloi, the head of the London Clock Tower or the Burial Agency.

There is absolutely no way someone like Rin, Kuzuki and Shiro are on that level (yet).
>>
HE WAS BEING BUFFED BY CASTER

LITERALLY EVEN SOMEONE WHO ONLY WATCHED THE ANIME, NO WAIT, ONLY WATCHED THAT EPISODE, NO WAIT, ONLY WATCHED THAT SEQUENCE COULD TELL YOU THAT

HIS
SERVANTS
NAME
IS
CASTER
CASTER
CASTER

ONE WHO USES MAGIC

C A S T E R

B U F F S

BUFFS

BUFFS ARE A THING RETARD

ENTIRE MMORPG CLASSES ARE BASICALLY BUILT AROUND BEING BUFFBOTS

B U F F S
U
F
F
S
>>
Why does Caster's nose bleed?

Why is she eating her hair?
>>
>>118564028
10/10
>>
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Kuzuki was trained from the moment he was born to be a killer and got buffed

Rin is one of the strongest mages currently alive in the nasuverse
>>
Because power levels and FSN power levels > FZ

This is now a proper TM thread.
>>
The only servant shirou ever blows the fuck out without archers arm is Gil.

Gil is a fucking retard.
I guess you could count archer but one could argue he wanted to be btfoed
>>
>>118563555

SHIROU IS A FUCKING SWORD

LITERALLY EVEN SOMEONE WHO ONLY WATCHED THE ANIME, NO WAIT, ONLY WATCHED THAT EPISODE, NO WAIT, ONLY WATCHED THAT SEQUENCE COULD TELL YOU THAT

EMIYA
SHIROU
IS
A
SWORD
SWORD
SWORD

A SWORD WHO USES SWORDS

S H I R O U

S W O R D S

SWORDS

SWORDS ARE A THING RETARD

ENTIRE MMORPG CLASSES ARE BASICALLY BUILT AROUND BEING SWORDS

S W O R D S
W
O
R
D
S
>>
>>118564028
post of the year
>>
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Why doesn't archer just project a bunch of gaebolgs to shoot as arrows
>>
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Why didn't they make a limited bladeworks?
>>
>>118564289
xD
>>
>>118564028
10/10
>>
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>>118564028
Thread over. Everyone go home.
>>
>>118564082
>>118564263
>>118564377
Samefag
>>
>>118564028
lol how did saber evade gae bolg xd
>>
>>118564444
Plot armor
>>
>>118564444
with quads
>>
>>118564644
stats retard
STATS
>>
>>118564444
Gae Bolg just stabs the heart for sure. It doesn't ensure it destroys it.

Saber survived because her heart is so strong, it deflected the attack.

The reason her heart is so strong is because she is love.
>>
>>118565413
Takeuchi pls go.
>>
>>118564245
How did Berserker kill him on Fate?
>>
>>118565413
>The reason her heart is so strong is because she is love.

So I guess the age ol' question to Haddaway's famous question can be answered... What is love?

...it's Saber.
>>
>>118565541
Because Berserker wrecked him before Archer could use enough BPs.
>>
5th war masters are combat freaks. Shirou has hero-level aptitude for faking, Rin is a top-class magus in training (and the tippest top class magus known can 1v1 DAAs so yeah), Illya was crafted from childhood to be a perfect master homunculus, Kuzuki is a mountain warrior assassin which apparently gives you super kungfu in type moon (judging from other mountain warrior assassins like Soujuurou and Nanaya clan), Bazett was a super-powered magus hunter and Kotomine is Kotomine (except he actually knows what he's fighting for this time around).
>>
>>118565740
The heroes are also more powerful than ever before, starring Avenger, who is supposed to avenge things!
>>
>>118564028
/Thread
>>
>>118565567
>What is love?
You're just asking for it
>>
>>118566077
BABY DON'T HURT ME
>>
>>118563555
>The only instance that even came close was Lancer facing down Kiri and telling him to back off
Daily reminder that Arturia is worst servant, worst Saber, worst girl, a bitch and a whore.
>>
>>118564028
>Forgetting about Rin, and Shiro.
>>
Most powerful does not equal unstoppable or irresistible.

It's like how the fastest car in the world can go 260 MPH and the second fastest car can go 258.6

The key to beating fast cars is to get them in a competition where speed is not the single ruling factor.

The key to beating powerful servants is to take them to a fight where power is not the single ruling factor.
>>
>>118566130

DON'T HURT ME
>>
>>118566455
No more.
>>
I want to kiss Caster's bum.
>>
>>118564149
>Rin is one of the strongest mages currently alive in the nasuverse

It doesn't seen that way most of the time.
>>
>>118566658
Do you know a lot about the Nasuverse or are you just watching the anime? Because it involves heavy spoilers for next cour.
>>
>>118564149

>Kuzuki was trained from the moment he was born to be a killer and got buffed

why is he a school teacher?
>>
>>118566775
That's the cover job they gave him when they sent him to kill some guy i think.
He's someone who goes with the flow, he's otherwise hollow.
>>
>>118566775
It's his cover apparently.
>>
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>>118566572
>>
>>118566775
Because he ran away from that shit, people didn't need him anymore. He was just minding his own business when Caster fell onto his dick.
>>
>>118566834

>he's otherwise hollow.

Isn't this the backstory of 90% of the FSN cast?
>>
>>118566861
He's more hollow than the rest.
He has no personality, no ambition, no wish, no anything, he's just some bloke, almost a yes-man.
>>
>>118566658
Because she's still at the "tons of potential, little to no experience" stage. Given time she's stated to become one of the 100 best magi the Clock Tower has EVER had in its entire history.
>>
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>>118566730

I am just watching the anime, but this guy (despite getting play like a chump by everyone) seen way more magically powerful then Rin.
>>
>>118564444
Lancer's Gay Bulge only works on male servants
>>
>>118565844
>Avenger
>more powerful than anyone
Ayako could beat the shit out of that mudboy.
>>
>>118566923

That's because Kayneth was a true hero and not a bisexual slut.
>>
>>118566923
Because he fought like a mage in a battle with a mage killer. You're pretty much asking why fire loses to water. Anyway, mage does not coorelate with combat ability, many mages are just psuedo-scientists. The HGW didn't even begin as a battle.
>>
>>118563555
>>118566356
Rin is an out of the ordinary gifted magus, potentially one of the top 100 mages of the association's entire history, and still has to resort to years worth of her prana stored in jewels to even have a chance of keeping up with servants. The times she managed to come close to defeating one, she put her life in an immense amount of risk and didn't even succeed.

Shirou literally has an EX rank Noble Phantasm inside of him that severely increases his chances of survival, and specializes in a freakishly rare and powerful magic that allows him to keep up with servants by directly copying their (or other servant's) weapons and abilities. Despite that, there's not a single servant that he can kill on his own without any sort of external influence that tips the scales in his favor. The only exception to that may be Gil, for whose Noble Phantasm Shirou has the one and only perfect counter.
>>
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>>118566923
>>
>>118563555
You need to understand many things here. First off, fatefags are the equivalent of retarded comic book nerds, all they do is talk about power levels all day with retarded superman vs wolverine shit. They have an IQ of 2 at best.
However, all anime fans are retarded, and clearly you are an anime fan and thus also retarded. The fact you think a cartoon like fate zero has any depth at all proves you are an idiot. That show only exists to sell the opening and ending songs and create merchandising oppurunities, just like Madoka. Anime is the most abhorrent and juvenile medium of entertainment, right after video games.

Third, anything type moon has ever made is trash, including Fate/zero. Its an action show. Its like the Avengers in film. You are a person who literally loses sleep that people think the Avengers is better than Batman movies. Thats how retarded you are lol
>>
>>118566923
Kayneth is a weak master in the sense that he is an educator and academic who is not well suited to take part in a practical all-or-nothing war game like this. But he is also too proud a man to turn down such an offer to represent the Mage Association, and he is too proud to admit to himself that his knowledge and skills do not apply well to a situation like the Grail War.

Sola-Ui seems like a dutiful wife, who simply follows Kayneth's plan because she actually believes they cannot lose. She has a lot of faith in her husband, and sees this battle as a small extension of his job at the Mage Association. That is until Lancer's curse starts to make her drift from common sense.

Lancer is too noble a knight and too tragic a figure to be suitable for the sort of arrangement Kayneth tried to make. Serving two masters was never in his nature, and compromising his values when the chips are down isn't something he's capable of either. With the Servant unwilling to play dirty, and command of the Servant divided between two masters, the entire situation was a clusterfuck waiting to happen.

Kayneth was in a way directly influenced mentally by his encounter with Kiritsugu. His underhanded maneuvering which got him the Command Spell, and the way he shot Rinsei in cold blood, both show that he is willing to do things that being a prideful mage would have prevented him from doing previously. After seeing how Kiritsugu totally destroyed him, he was influenced to try the same sort of strategies to get his way in the Grail War. But too little too late it seems.
>>
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>>118567081
>>
>>118566861

Just Shirou, Kotomine, and Kuzuki, really.

Kiritsugu pretended to be hollow but he couldn't actually cut it.
>>
>>118563555
Because the plot dictates them to be overpowered and throw out that very parameter out of the window.

If the story needs for a teenager ginger to beat the strongest Servant it shall be so.

If the story needs for a teenage girl to kill Greece's greatest hero six times with a piece of magical rock it shall be so.

If the story requires that the main heroine gets beat and captured by a guy who was trained to be an assassin since birth it will happen.

Nasu is a hack, your fault for only recognizing it now
>>
>>118567081
/co/ pls
>>
>>118567042

Did he even knew those were claymore mimes? Kayneth didn't seen as someone to care or know about modern weaponry.
>>
>>118567081
>lol
Why are you even on 4chan, let alone /a/ in particular, if you have such disdain for pointless fun?
>>
>>118567174
>>
>>118567196
Stupid fucker probably thought Kerry's origin was "metal balls"
>>
>>118567174
>If the story needs for a teenage girl to kill Greece's greatest hero six times with a piece of magical rock it shall be so.
I think you're getting something mixed up here, Rin only killed Berserker once, and she had to use all her remaining jewels to even get in that situation without dying

>If the story requires that the main heroine gets beat and captured by a guy who was trained to be an assassin since birth it will happen.
Kuzuki never captured Saber, and in fact he didn't really beat her either because she just got up and ran his scared ass off a few seconds later
>>
>>118567003
>Shirou literally has an EX rank Noble Phantasm inside of him that severely increases his chances of survival, and specializes in a freakishly rare and powerful magic that allows him to keep up with servants by directly copying their (or other servant's) weapons and abilities. Despite that, there's not a single servant that he can kill on his own without any sort of external influence that tips the scales in his favor. The only exception to that may be Gil, for whose Noble Phantasm Shirou has the one and only perfect counter.

All this convenient MC power/plot armor bullshit that allows him to kill the most powerful servant. Fucking nasu.
>>
>>118564028
Even with the caster buff he shouldn't be able to man handle servants

inb4 'muh fighting style'
>>
>>118567310
>Even with the caster buff he shouldn't be able to man handle servants
Says fucking who?
>>
>>118564444
Stop shitposting please
>>
>>118567302
Man, it's a eroge, what are you expecting?
>>
>>118567336
Why couldn't Caster buff herself?
>>
>>118564444
because her shitty plot amor A Luck
>>
>>118567363
it's B rank luck. Tsubame would be a better example of bullshit.
>>
>>118567359
She can, but she has no close-combat fighting ability. She's a fucking caster. What a moronic question.
>>
>>118567336
Because it doesn't make him faster just stronger/sturdier, these servants are going a mile a minute
>>
>>118567359
She doesn't know kung-fu. Her Master does.
>>
>>118567429
>it doesn't make him faster
Are you sure?
>>
>>118567356
Something actually good like Zero.
>>
>>118567302
F/Z: Battle Royale
F/SN: Don't make me use a Command Spell, Saber, my Servant :3
>>
>>118567429
I know you're a secondary anon, but Strengthening magic makes something better at whatever it's designed to do. A Strengthened body will be stronger, tougher, faster, have better reflexes, sight, hearing, smell, everything.

Hell, it could probably be better at extracting nutrition from food and maybe even more efficient at using energy.

Assuming you buff the ENTIRE body, anyway.
>>
>>118567460
>Zero
>good
FSN may be a shitty VN, but don't be a delusional.
>>
>>118567460
>Zero
>good

Hey I know lets have assassin assasinate someone,
no
wait

lets not
>>
>>118567465
But F/SN was a battle royale
>>
>>118567272
Which would have allowed him such catch phrases as:
"Suck on my balls!"
"Check out my ball sack!"
"You're tripping balls!"
>>
>>118567359
Assuming it's reinforcement magic, it might not be, then the idea is putting magic inside yourself/the target to make yourself/it stronger.

I'm not sure how that works with servants as they don't have a physical body. Putting magic inside something composed of magic seems like a bad idea.
>>
>>118566923
more skilled? Yes, he's got 20 years + of Rin. Definitely not more powerful. At one point Rin uses gems to perform an A rank magic and take off Berserker's head.
>>
>>118567302
>muh MC powers
I don't know why this bothers people, the damn story is about Shirou, of course he's gonna do some crazy shit

Next you'll tell me it's bullshit that Shiki can kill things
>>
>>118567507
Not that anon but I always saw fsn as the first of its kind and noticed they got better as the series progressed. I still love it but I can see how they have improved with time
>>
>>118567302
>throw in most powerful servant ever
>by far
>he's an antagonist
>protags gotta protag
>give them something to beat him
>BOOO HISS BULLSHIT *anon cries in a corner*
>>
>nasufags STILL butthurt over zero
>>
>>118567555
Archer literally uses reinforcement magic on himself all the time.
>>
>>118567517
didn't they try that with waver?
>>
>>118567429
Reinforcement doesn't make things harder or stronger, it makes them better at what they do.

I should tell you to read the fucking VN, but Ufo even made Shirou fucking explain that out loud in the anime, so my advice to you will be to either find a way to restore your damaged brain functions or just plain old kill yourself.
>>
>>118567599
Oh right.

Well never mind then.
>>
>>118567302
So let me get this straight, you're upset the story has a strong antagonist, and that the protagonist of the story has the precise combination of skills needed to beat him?
>>
>>118567587
Isn't it wonderful how that doesn't happen in Zero?
>>
>>118567587
>>118567574
I'm not that guy, but the thing is F/Z brought people in thinking it wasn't like your a shounen, for little kids, they spread the word it wasn't like that, /a/nons latched onto that idea, and then whoa, it has something like a typical shounen.

And now people realize there's a lot of things like a typical shounen, and the backlash stage is happening. I don't know what people expected.
>>
>>118567564
And, for the record, the VN at one point comments that Saber's Magic Resistance, which can only be penetrated by magic of rank at least A, is effectively impossible to penetrate by any modern magi or magecraft. And Rin goes and makes a Rank A magic attack anyway. Bitch is as hax as her ZR.
>>
>>118567460
>>
>>118567574

>I don't know why this bothers people, the damn story is about Naruto, of course he's gonna do some crazy shit

>Next you'll tell me it's bullshit that Kirito can kill things
>>
>>118567574
At least shiki still has to rely on his/her own abilities to kill things
>>
>>118567603
nope, just sort of hopped around in the general vicinity
one of them made scary eyes at him though
>>
>>118567654
shiro isn't strong, he gets his ass whopped tons of times until it's time for the plot to move on and he wins by pure plot contrivance.
>>
>>118567664
Well, think about it anon. Fate/Zero is a prequel. By its nature, it is not going to end in a climactic battle where the heroes triumph over the villains, it's going to end in a spectacular failure in order to set up Fate/Stay Night.
>>
>>118563555
Do you even lift?
>>
>>118567302
Friendly reminder that Kaleidoscope is a thing and that there's an infinite number of worlds where Shirou fails horribly, even though we only see around 30 of those.
>>
I wouldn't be surprised if Shirou could take both of them down.
>>
>>118567590
ANN: How much control and input did you have over the characters who participated in the 4th Holy grail war? Did you sit down with Kinoko Nasu and discuss who would be added to the Nasuverse or were you given free reign to create any characters that were not previously established?
Gen Urobuchi: The process was that I drafted up a proposal for the new characters and the plot, and showed it to Nasu-san for his supervision. However, consequently, 90% of those proposals were accepted as they were already Nasu-san's ideas. As for character names, Hisau Maiya was only character name that I suggested. The other characters were all named by Nasu-san.

------

ANN:How often did you feel you had change elements out the story in your head to fit in with the story of Fate/stay night? Were there any plot elements that had to be completely scrapped to stay within the overall time line? Did you feel you had retcon anything in Fate/stay night to fit into your story?

Gen:Also, we had to adjust the relationship between Saber and Kiritsugu, so as not to be too bad. We were afraid that if Saber excessively increases her distrust toward Kiritsugu, she would not easily open her heart to Shiro, who is Kiritsugu's adopted child.
>>
>>118567701

The only consistent thing about Fate is how often it's own rules are broken
>>
>>118567664
Only because the story has two features pretty much mandated by FSN:
1) It ends in a clusterfuck of fire and evil mud
2) Nobody really wins
3) Gil survives

>Nasu counting to two
>>
>>118567590
edgefags gonna edge anon
edgefags gunna edge
>>
>>118567715
>this story has something similar
>so it's exactly alike
>Guts = Naruto
>Casca = Sakura
>Griffith = Sasuke
Troll or be dumb somewhere else. Protagonists are protagonists because they have protagonist qualities.
>>
>>118566841
>>118566861
>>118566834
It's not a "cover". He went on missions as his organization dictated and found no meaning or reward in them, even though he had trained all his life for it, so he left and tried do something else. He felt nothing from that either, but decided he might as well stick with it.

He's similar to Kotomine, but doesn't have any problems acknowledging his flaw. Also, he wasn't dipped in the concentrated evil of all humanity, so that might also have helped.
>>
>>118567715
>flimsy Naruto comparisons with no argument presented as to why any specific aspect of the story is actually bad
Stop it
>>
>>118567715
You are trying WAY to fucking hard, anon.

It's a fantasy story. Of course the MC's isn't going to be some completely normal dude.

Of course a fucking story is going to be built around its protagonist.

If you want to bitch about Shirou having Avalon shoved up his ass, then bitch about Kiritsugu being a magus killer. Bitch about Kirei being an Executor. Bitch about everyone being magi. Bitch about the foundations of fucking literature. Just bitch about it somewhere else, because people are trying to actually ENJOY something here.
>>
>>118567731
Please point out where I said he was strong
>>
>>118567835
I think he's pointing out, if this shit was pulled in non fate(which a lot of /a/nons put on a pedestal), they'd be called out to shit. Seriously, do you REMEMBER how much they shit on Naruto, Ichigo, and Kirito for having typical protag qualities?
>>
>>118567725
They did try to assassinate him and they failed so...
>>
>>118567731
riiight
so not big fan of reading I take it
>>
>>118567773
That's basically the defining mechanism of the Nasuverse: "Rules. Rules everywhere. And a way to break every last one." With the corollary of "he who breaks the rules in the coolest ways wins".
>>
>>118567603
They tried to kill Waver when his Servant was right fucking there. Greatest assassins ever.
>>
>>118563555
>zero
saber = gets shat on by her own master, dies like a bitch in the end
archer = outright broken as he should be
lancer = dies like a bitch
rider = dies like a bitch
caster = gets laserbeamed
berserker = freezes because his master died like a bitch
assassin = died like bitches

kerry = became a totally broken man
tokiomi = died like a bitch
kfc = died like a bitch
waver = survived and became manly as fuck
kuuru = died like a bitch
kariya = worms
kirei = survives and becomes the main antagonist for the rest of the series

>stay night
saber = gets shat on except in the fate route
archer = dies like a bitch in three routes
lancer = dies like a bitch in three routes
rider = dies in two routes, survives in the last where she becomes a semen demon
caster = dies like a bitch in three routes
berserker = he's so strong that he dies like a bitch in three routes
assassin = both were dead as fuck

shirou = survives two routes and becomes a meatdoll in one ending in the last or dies
rin = survives or gets thrown in wormslut's mind worm pit
bazett = dies like a bitch
kirei = dies like a bitch
wormslut = worms for two and a half route
shinji = survives in the best route
kuzuki = dies like a bitch
ilya = dies like a bitch
zouken = dies like a bitch
>>
>>118567863
>its a fantasy!
>of course just like everything I watch and read it will be shit!
Epic dude
>>
>>118567899
Nasu almost always never uses absolutes or leaves openings for himself so he can never write himself into a corner. This is apparent in his VS interviews.
>>
>>118567890
No they didn't. They saw him surrounded by perhaps the three most ridiculously hax servants ever and decided that right THEN would be an awesome time to try to throw a dagger at him from like 300 feet away. Tokiomi wanted to make Rider use his greatest NP (which was totally unnecessary of him; he was just buzzed and trying to show off, if anything, in an otherwise direct contradiction to his experience as a world-conquering general). Taking out Waver would have been amusing collateral damage at most.

>stupid
>fucking
>mage
>>
>>118567654
people get upset when the MC gets those awesome skills to kill the strong baddies through asspulls

doesn't it take like hundreds of years to develop a reality marble? and he got one because he came inside rin.
>>
>>118567996
Everyone knows nasu is a hack
>>
>>118567863
>Just bitch about it somewhere else, because people are trying to actually ENJOY something here.

thats a lie, I only come here to watch people argue over inane shit(I'm a horrible person ;_;)
>>
>>118568025
>doesn't it take like hundreds of years to develop a reality marble? and he got one because he came inside rin.
Please tell me you're joking.
>>
>>118567835

>Generic shounen #150130
>This shit is retarded and this MC's powers are retarded

>FSN
>H-he has to have the p-powers he's the m-main character!

Fate threads are the only ones where anons will actively defend stereotypes because they are stereotypes. As retarded as people are for still reading bleach, at least they can point out its flaws and acknowledge them.
>>
F/SN is a battle chunni.
>>
>>118568106
That's still not an actual argument of any sort, anon. You're just trying to imply some vague parallels between this and other series than generally have a bad reputation on /a/ so you can skip all the trouble of expressing your opinions coherently.
>>
>>118567777
>Only because the story has two features pretty much mandated by FSN

so only because zero is a better story that doesn't need to end with the cliched "underdog" mc who gets an awesome power boost because he needs to win
>>
>>118568160
Yes, and?
>>
>>118568172
Shirou has the one of the most OP NP inside of him, survives through bullshit, and is able to defeat the strongest servant 1v1, while also having a servant of the strongest class, who is special since she has a physical body.

What were the chances?
>>
>>118567877
Naruto I haven't followed for MANY years, so I can't speak anything about it, but let's look at how the two main male Type-Moon protagonists compare to Ichigo and Kirito, in how they got their powers. We'll start with Shirou.

Most of Shirou's power comes from Avalon being jammed inside of his soul at the end of the 4th war. He had to practically die to get his power, and on top of that for the past several years he's been nearly killing himself with improper magic training. He's suffered and worked hard for his abilities, and at the beginning of the novel he's still shit.

Shiki, like Shirou, got his most hax power from nearly dying. Actually, from ACTUALLY dying, and being tethered to life by his sister and the maids. Unlike Shirou, however, his secondary abilities, the Nanaya instinct, is the result of his previously unknown family history. And that's kind of bullshit.

ALL of Ichigo's powers come from previously unknown family history. Whatever (rightful) bullshit you call on Shiki, you have to call on Ichigo a dozen times moreso. In addition, every time a new power of Ichigo's gets revealed, he gets pushed that much closer to being the strongest in the world, while Shiki isn't actually that high on the powerlevel chart. There's plenty of things he flat-out cannot kill under any circumstances, and plenty more that would just wreck him in every fight even if he "CAN" kill them.

And Kirito's power is the most mary-sue wish-fulfillment bullshit ever. Everything he has, EVEN IN THE REAL WORLD, comes from the fact that he's really good at video games. That's just silly. Especially since most of that only came because he was ALREADY the person with the best reflexes in SAO the game.

So in short, when judging a character, what's more important is WHY a character can do what they do, and not exactly WHAT they do.
>>
>>118568172
the argument is you fatefags are too stupid to notice when you're defending shit writing that would be immediately recognized as such in any other chuuni battle shounen.
>>
>>118567664
Fuck off secondary
>>
>>118568263
What exactly is your point? Unlikely things happening are bad? Most of that shit is interrelated anyway, him having Avalon, him summoning Saber, and him having sword powers are not independent events that all just happened to occur.
>>
>>118568263
>survives through bullshit
6/45 times, the other 39 end in death or presumed death.
>Shirou has the one of the most OP NP
This is a pretty dumb criticism, it's the thing that allows him to be a protagonist. Otherwise he's just some dumb kid. But I'll give you Saber though, that's just dumb bullshit.
>>
>>118568106
Because people come into these threads complaining about plotholes that don't exists. Shit reading comprehension or lazyness make it impossible to talk about the series actual flaws.

>Hurr durr the thing that has two lord of the rings novels worth of explanation before it ever comes up is an asspull

seriously

Complain about Shirou's personality or powers all you like they are literally in your face since the beginning of the novel, you learn about Avalon before or during the Holy Grail War or Servants or Noble Phantasms.
It is the character establishing moment. It's the series establishing moment. He starts by fighting Lancer with a poster for christ sake.

How deluded do you have to be to think Shirou's supposed to be normal.
>>
Nasu: They're all pretty old, so they fight with firm belief systems. However, among them, Matou Kariya, who's fighting for Sakura's freedom, is an anomaly. He, and only he, fights for a very shonen manga-esque ideal, "to save a girl." In that respect, I think it's easier for the reader to identify with Kariya compared to the valiant types like Kiritsugu. And I heard that Uncle Kariya's actual popularity (*2) among fans is off the charts. He is in love with Aoi, who's actually a wedded woman with a child, but he still isn't able to grow up, and dreams about being united with her. He's a bit of a problem.

Takeuchi: I see. So Kariya is sort of like the chunibyo hero of the story. (TL Note: Good explanation of chunibyo here for people not familiar: 中二病[chunibyo])

Uro: It's a disease that summons death. Because he has the "chunibyo" disease, he let the worms into his body, until finally he only has one month left to life.

Nasu: Maybe all chunibyo are fated to end up this way... I have chronic chunibyo myself, so maybe I'll end up just like Kariya... (Laughs)

Takeuchi: Kariya really seems like the main character in the anime version of Fate/Zero. His drive to save Sakura and how he envelops the depression connected to Tokiomi really makes him look like a dark hero. Maybe that's why he's so popular.

Nasu: Usually if I drew a dark hero like Kariya, he'd lose almost everything only to have all his hard work pay off in the end. But of course, Urobuchi-san goes and has characters like Kariya die without any sort of retribution.

Uro: Well, I did let him see a "good dream" at the end. (Laughs) In the beginning, I actually wanted to do more with him. But because of the way his body ended up, making him fight more would kill him...
>>
>>118568354
>What exactly is your point?
that F/SN has shitty writing on par with other cliched battle shounens but fatefags get assblasted when people prefer zero.
>>
The best routes get anime first and sell the best (~56k for F/Z vs projected ~20k for F/SN)
>>
>>118568447
Sales figures are for shitposters only.
>>
>>118568287

>Most of Shirou's power comes from Avalon being jammed inside of his soul at the end of the 4th war.
>ALL of Ichigo's powers come from previously unknown family history.

So most of their powers come from things outside of their control that they had since at least childhood

>He's suffered and worked hard for his abilities, and at the beginning of the novel he's still shit.

Oh god, are we really going to pretend that Ichigo wasn't shit at the beginning of Bleach and that he didn't go through bullshit training arcs?

>>118568370

>This is a pretty dumb criticism, it's the thing that allows him to be a protagonist

You can actually have a protagonist in a fate series who isn't capable of killing the most powerful servant. It's called not being a hack and being overly reliant on overpowered abilities.
>>
>>118568429
>F/SN has shitty writing
I'm aware you think that anon, you're still not doing much to convince me of this fact, or of anything.
>>
>>118567715
That's a fair criticism of a shitty argument, but yours doesn't hold up very well to scrutiny either. Naruto's idea of foreshadowing or properly developing power ups for characters includes things like the final confrontation with Kaguya literally having him go "oh I can apparently fly now now, I just never thought to try it before" because the current situation demanded it.

Shirou's power ups aren't just for the purposes of defeating the antagonist of the year, they are also directly tied to themes in the story (he has Avalon and symbolically serves as Saber's sheathe, develops UBW in direct defiance of Archer's criticism of his worldview, obtains Archer's arm and has his very identity erode away in the process of compromising on his ideals in order to save the woman he loves) and unlike Kirito, he regularly gets bad ends either misusing or relying on his powers and is repeatedly stated to not stand a chance against most of his opponents such that he often needs to get bailed out of shitty situations by other characters.

I'm never going to argue that Nasu is the greatest writer of our time and sure, F/SN might have flashy powers and battles like any shounen, but it's not nearly shallow enough to be compared to shit like Naruto or SAO.

I'm fine with people criticizing the series because it has plenty of flaws, but for fucks sake, do so without relying on terrible comparisons and overarching statements.
>>
>>118568263
Dude had Saber's sheath of near-immortality magically embedded inside of him. Of course he's fucking summoning Saber and surviving shit. And his reality marble exists because of his origin, which is what it is entirely because of said sheath. Every last one of his hax circumstances come from a single well-explained source (which is arguably more hax than all of them). If you want to bitch, bitch at how heroes had such ridiculous artifacts in the first place.
>>
>>118568370
deaths? In VNs, due to choices? That's silly, this is probably the only time on /a/ where those ends will be mentioned. When we talk about Shirou, we ALWAYS talk about the route Shirous who survive to the end, and he could be a protag without Avalon, he'll just be a less shounen like one.
>>
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>SAO comparisons
>Naruto comparisons
>MC power arguments
Holy shit, play the game.
No shit Shirou has some sort of plot armor. He is the protag, after all. But if you've played the game, you know that Nasu goes out of his way to describe just how nervous and how scared and how painful experiences with these otherworldly beings are. It's very visceral and graphic, and in every fight Shirou's struggling and usually barely manages to survive. His muscles burn and his eyes are gouged out and his blood is boiling. That's what makes the scenes a bit more believable, the fact that he recognizes how much weaker he is and it's shown to us at every step.

Contrast that with generic shonen manga. Completely different.

>>118568306
>>118568429
Fate's writing has some weak points, but the fights are not one of them. If you played the games instead of just relying on the anime and hearsay, maybe you'd realize that, secondary.

>>118568370
This too, people forget that about 90% of all ends are bad ends.

>>118568447
>F/Z
>route
>F/Z before F/SN
can't tell if new or just trolling.
>>
>>118568489
>are we really going to pretend that Ichigo wasn't shit at the beginning of Bleach

From the very beginning of the first chapter where he has zero training and can't do anything beyond seeing ghosts, sure. But from the moment he actually GETS Rukia's powers they start to hype him up as being so strong. "I've never seen a Zanpakutou this big" and everything. And then power creep happened like FUCK, and that's just bad writing.
>>
>>118568489
The problem is that
>Shirou has the one of the most OP NP
isn't what allows him to protagonist over Gil. Avalon isn't really athing for him at this point. What allows that to happen is mana transfer bullshit. Get your facts straight if you are going to complain.
>>
>>118568534
No, but the number of dead ends show just how perilous his situations really are. Play the game, you'll hit a few no matter what if you're not using a guide. Doing so really drives home the point that Shirou is weak and that the HGW is an uphill battle for him.
>>
>>118568568
>but the fights are not one of them
Actually in term of fights FSN is pretty poor, the only one that is memorably written is Berserker in HF and that's mostly because it's a pretty interesting scene thematically-wise.

Compared to a lot of action eroge it's pretty poor in term of pure action/narration
>>
>>118568287
>and at the beginning of the novel he's still shit
and yet in the span of the a few weeks he still bests some of the most powerful entities in the nasuverse... even though he is a shitty magus. nasu tries too hard to make him the underdog when he is not average in the least thanks to avalon, his EX NP, a strong Servant, etc etc.
>>
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>>118568674
>nasu tries too hard to make him the underdog when he is not average in the least
This isn't a contradiction. He's most certainly not an average human in any sense, but Servants still far outclass him in almost every sense.
>>
>>118568568

>can't tell if new or just trolling

If it sounds stupid or doesn't make sense, ignore it. Only try to save those worth saving.
>>
>>118568727

blue
>>
>>118568613
That means nothing because those ends Are Not Canon.
>>
>>118568727
>Saber
>Ilya
>Caster
>Taiga

But I don't want any of those girls
>>
>>118568674
>even though he is a shitty magus
And a lion is a shitty fish, but it's still plenty capable of killing you.

Shirou is not meant to be a magus.
>>
>>118568793
>not canon
Okay now you have to be trolling.
>>
>>118567877
>Seriously, do you REMEMBER how much they shit on Naruto, Ichigo, and Kirito for having typical protag qualities?
All those characters get shat on for entirely different reasons. Naruto isn't shat on for him getting random power ups, he's shat on because his random power ups completely contradict with one of the core themes that the series originally presented; that hard work and effort > being a natural born genius. Ichigo receives completely random power ups one after another after another, with near zero foreshadowing as to how or why such as in the full bring arc, and Kirito just magically has all these skills and abilities for practically no real reason other than him playing a video game and being super special like with his dual wield skill.

Literally ever single aspect about Shirou's powers are foreshadowed in the VN. You can go back as far as Shirou's training scenes with Saber in the fate route for foreshadowing about the fact that he has eye of mind true, how when he wields projected weapons he just lets his body go with the flow of them, and how he had an interest in developing a sure kill technique that would let him even do something as incredible as defeat a servant at some point in his life. That's the difference he has between characters like Naruto, Kirito, and Ichigo, and even then to act like people won't attempt to call out or defend the same things happening in other series is flat out wrong. Just look at things like Gon-San from HxH for examples of that.
>>
>>118568534
>That's silly, this is probably the only time on /a/ where those ends will be mentioned.
But they offer important characterization. For example, Rin seems like see does a pure mage act when she confronts Shirou in the school, but one of the bad ends turns out to be her safely removing Shirou from the War. They may not be talked about much, but they are relevant.
>>118568674
The "training" with Saber is the worst example of this. Just getting whacked a few times isn't going to give you survival skills, I don't care how skilled your "teacher" is.
>>
>>118568568
Wow, it's like you don't even read typical shounen. Let's use Bleach as an example, since it's pretty generic, well known, but didn't take the shounen thing as far as Naruto(So far). Ichigo has felt pain, and it's almost always described how often he feels like shit. Sometimes he's confident, but through a lot of his fights we get how hopeless it seems to him. Prime example being Ichigo vs Ulquiorra, with all his power, and all his boosts he doesn't actually manage to do anything until after he DIES, with a hole in his chest.

Let's use another example, let's use One Piece.

Let's use...Lucci? Yeah, fuck it let's use Lucci. During the fight he actually gets devastated, to the point where he's unable to actually get up, because the ability he's using is actually harming him, you know the 2nd Gear.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but please don't try to take Shounen typical "Get the shit beat out of them/hopeless situation" and pretend it's not Shounen.
>>
>>118568793
>Nasuverse
>Not Canon
toppest of keks, secondary
>>
Oh come on are you guys fucking serious?

UBW had the Caster arc which was boring most of the time as well. Without Kuzuki going hero killer, Archer backstabbing and "You're strong, Berserker" more people would complain. Though the second half was at an constant awesome.
>>
>>118568802

Rin as a companion literally only works with Shirou so you get nothing.
>>
>>118568671
>action eroge
I respectfully disagree. I've played a ton of galge by now and honesty, FSN has some of the most intense fights of any. It creates this sense of tension and trepidation that few other games match. Plus, all those flashing frames in a fight really help break things up and give it a nice pace.
>>
>>118568613
>Dead Ends
Turn any shounen manga into a VN it will have fucking dead ends. Dead Ends don't mean shit
>>
>>118568834
Dude's Origin is SWORDS, nigger.

You smack him with a sword and he goes "I know kung-fu. Or, rather, the sword-analogue of kung-fu."
>>
>>118568859
>I respectfully disagree. I've played a ton of galge by now and honesty
Like what?
I doubt you played much chuuni eroge
>>
>>118568817
Whatever the anime adopts is what nasu selected to be The Most Canon

Or do you think nasu has no control over what they do in the adaptation?
>>
>>118568762
No, fuck that. I just need to form more thoughtful arguments and learn to type faster so I can reach more anons in a shorter span of time. Everyone can be saved from stupidity and ignorance if I simply try harder.
>>
>>118568827
In all fairness to Bleach, while Fullbring does come out of left field most of Ichigo's other powers after initially becoming a Shinigami are all foreshadowed to some degree.
>>
>>118568914
Watch out he's transcending past secondary into tertiary.
>>
>>118568582
How different is 15 year old Ichigo going to SS and somehow beating hundred-year old beings who have presumably trained for decades to a 16 year old ginger who kills beings that move at mach 3 and can lift tractors with one hand, also some of them being half or 2/3 divine?
>>
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>>118568914
>Whatever the anime adopts is what nasu selected to be The Most Canon
You're a funny guy anon, I like you.
>>
>>118568859
If the fights in F/SN are its strong point

How can the anime be inferior to a non animated medium??
>>
>>118568827
Funnily enough, Ichigo did have foreshadowing with all of his abilities.(Aside from fullbringer..technically, the concept fit Ichigo perfectly when it came in, so -shrug-.) Quincy cross on his bed, the fact his mother could see spirits, the fact his bankai compresses rather than releases energy, Uryu's arrows being able to get bigger while touching Ichigo. His hollow powers were foreshadowed with his mask showing up randomly, and coming out with the same mask, his hollow form thing was foreshadowed when Hollow Ichigo said that he'd take over his body if he falls.
>>
>>118568727
Y E L L OW
>>
>>118568836
Not him and I agree, F/SN is very much shounen. But it's shounen done right with proper development and foreshadowing rather than "I don't know how I'm going to have my protagonist beat the bad guy so I'm going to give him a power up now out of nowhere."
>>
>>118568994
Shirou literally copies the weapons, weapon-relevant stats, and relevant-weapon skills of said tractor lifting yokels.
>>
>>118569022
>>118568978
Ah so you guys believe Nasu has no control over the anime.

Why watch it then?
>>
>>118568793
>not canon
What

>>118568836
The presentation's completely different. There are hopeless situations in Bleach, and Naruto, and plenty of other stuff. But they're hot-blooded. You can't say that, say, the Anti-spiral fight in TTGL was the same level of despair as Griffith's betrayl, even if they're both "hopeless". Same here.

The difference between Bleach's "hoplessness" and FSN's is that Bleach's is usually some super-powerful new character coming in and beating the crap out of everyone. FSN is more like, someone pokes shirou and he whines about it for half an hour. It's not nearly as melodramatic.

Play the game, secondary
>>
>>118569071
>ALART
>ALART
He's going critical!
>>
>>118569071
No one said that.
>>
>>118569050
>I'm not strong, my weapon makes me strong
>>
>>118568793
>>118568914
What's with those randomly capitalized words?
It's been bothering me for a while now, but I don't get it.
>>
>>118569071
From the very start, True Ends are just ends where Nasu thinks he's concluded the route's themes. Normal, good, or bad ends are not less canon, but do not conclude the routes themes. That's the only difference. You don't adapt an incomplete product when a complete version exists.
>>
>>118569096
>/a/

>read the VN.

We're talking about the anime. Why the hell would I talk about the VN, on an anime/manga board? We're talking about the anime's presentation. If the anime dosen't explain it, that makes it a crappy adaption, right?
>>
>>118568741
>Servants still far outclass him in almost every sense
which is why he needs bullshit asspulls to beat them, which is not so good writing.
>>
>>118569097
>>118569104
>>118569144
Two possibilitys exist.

1. Nasu has creative, canon control of the anime and selected which route was the cannonest and most deserving of an anime.

2. Nasu does not have creative & canon control of the anime.

If nasu wanted to keep this "harem end" multi-canonverse going he'd have made the anime follow multiple/all routes.
>>
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I think it would all be easier to swallow if the Servants weren't so hyped up all the time with "moves at the speed of sound" and "hits like a truck" nonsense.

It really doesn't serve that much of a purpose other than trying to make Shirou look cool when something JUST SO HAPPENS to happen at that ONE time so that he can beat them. if they were just really skilled warriors I think it would work a lot better.
>>
>>118569219
This is going in circles dude.
>>
>>118569247
Multiverse is always, will always be, canon, so by extension all routes and all endings will always be equally true.
The Kaleidoscope is one of the fundamental aspects of the Nasuverse, it's rooted as deeply as Akasha and Origins of the Soul.
>>
>>118569277
I'm not even saying fate is bad, but I'd really rather people pretend it doesn't have typical shounen elements in it. It's like the word shounen is /a/ bane, and even putting it with something means EVERYONE has to shit on it.
>>
>>118569247
see >>118569186
>>
>>118568994
Because the full justification for Ichigo pulling that off is "Well, he's really strong." While for Shirou's full justification is "Well, when he was six he nearly died in a fire related to the last Grail War, and was only saved when Kerry discovered him still alive and shoved Avalon, an incredibly powerful relic, inside his soul. The fire basically tuned his soul into a blank slate, so Avalon began to influence his very being on a metaphysical level. This allows him, in at least one future timeline, to understand swords on a fundamental level, and he built his entire magic around that. When this future version of himself is summoned back into the Grail War he participates in during his lifetime, two copies of the same soul in the same time start to resonate with each other, and the younger Shirou picks up many of the older Shirou's abilities before he normally would."

In other words, it's better because there's an actual fucking reason.
>>
>>118569277

>F/Z anime
>Everyone complains that the servants are too slow

>FSN
>Everyone moves super fast and hits super hard
>Thank god saber lured berserker into a graveyard so these regular tombstones will hinder his movement
>>
>>118564028
Fucking secondaries man. If you read the VN, you'd know Archer beats Kuzuki in less than a second after Caster is dead.
>>
>>118567679
I understand and sympathise, they want Heaven's Feel and are getting UBW but they keep complaining about things being better in Zero that weren't.
The characters in Zero act way more ridiculous, it has more plotholes, its exposition is way more tedious, no one of significance dies in the first half, the protagonist has ACTUAL plot armour etc. etc.

They want to complain about how cliched F/SN is but the truth is strip away the flashy gunplay and Caster's antics and it's more of a soap opera than Stay Night ever dares to be. They're desperate to yell at anything that looks cliche because the alternative is admitting that they were only fooled by teenager pandering instead of otaku pandering.
>>
>>118569333
What the fuck does "shounen elements" even mean, it's just "has fights and stuff I don't like" most of the time. These arguments never go anywhere because people toss around meaningless buzzwords like this.
>>
>>118569219
He gets killed at almost every encounter he has with a servant, you just make the choice where he doesn't get killed. Linear storytelling can't quite get that point across without Shirou coming out as overpowered (they aren't going to adapt all the bad ends and then show you the way he survives) but he's pretty damn fragile just like a normal human.
>>
>>118569333
Anon, there are plenty of people in this very thread that have already agreed that it is shounen and that this fact isn't necessarily a bad thing. Please don't use grand sweeping generalizations like that, /a/ is not a hive mind, there are just really loud idiots on both sides of the spectrum that drown out all of the sensible people (and that's not even counting the lurkers).
>>
>>118569277
There are only three technically four characters who are every able to truly fight at the same level of servants, and all of them need high level and unorthodox magic to enhance their abilities in order to do so. The fact that Kuzuki was able to fight against Saber is even called out in the episode itself as being absolutely insane given exactly what you're describing since that's the whole point of that scene.
>>
>>118569392
She used them to break his line of sight.
>>
>>118563555
Short answer: those magic laws they talk about like if they were some videogame rule that make the whole universe work actually are just an escamotage of the author to make look things more exceptional. the times a battle or something is shown following those rules are countable on one hand.
>>
>>118569327
Sorry bud, that ceased to be true when nasu abandoned it in the New Content (anime)
>>
>>118569047
>FSN
>Shonen
Do you even know what that word means, newfag?
18+ is not shonen.

>>118569027
I dunno, the anime fights aren't bad, but they're not the same as the way the VN did it.

>>118568890
The fuck does that mean? That's the nature of the genre, of course it will. That doesn't mean that bad ends are inherent to any shonen manga, or that Shonen manga achieves the effect of dead ends without using dead ends.

Fucking secondaries, I swear

>>118568912
I dunno, most recently I've been playing Four Rhythm, though that isn't a chunni VN really. Total maybe I've gone through 200-250.

But lets compare fate to something well-known like, say, I dunno, Muramasa or Demonbane or Kikokugai. Those Nitro+ games are chuuni as shit. The fights are much more dramatic and flashy. In contrast, most fights in FSN can barely be called fights at all, at least those involving shirou. They're one-sided as shit. The goal, unlike those other games, isn't victory, but survival. That completely changes the tone of the game.

Something neat about Nasu's style that really comes into play during his battle scenes is his use of repetition and graphic imagery. The repetition has almost a Hemingway-ish feel about it. It's purely emotional and the absurdity of it reflects an almost instinctual reaction. A sort of primal fear that doesn't pop up in many other VNs. Sometimes it gets a bit ridiculous, though. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR. THIS CHAIR.
>>
>>118564073
Seiba fetish
Go watch Carnival Phantasm
>>
>>118569347
You mean the kid who was born from a quincy, and a Captain, while also being part hollow because of the hollow that pretty much manifested itself in Ichigo similar to a fullbringer.(keeping in mind spiritual pressure/reiryoku is something that can affect your offspring, as shown as entire families who are strong enough to produce several captains, and fullbringers have a lot of spiritual pressure do to the hollow attacking their parents aswell.)Aswell as it was shown that the last substitute Shinigami was also OP.(Probably since ever superpowered human is stronger than the average Shinigami) Had to speed up his bankai getting speed by skipping the hundreds of years most people get it at.(through meditation and pulling their spirit out that way, and instead Ichigo has his put into some dummy thing, rather then spend all that time.)

All this, while Kenpachi was able to beat a Captain as a kid, Hitsugaya is a Captain while a kid, and there are several teen Lts running around?

Yeah, okay.
>>
>>118569198
>FSN VN
>not /a/
>THIS FUCKING NEW
I swear to god sometimes secondaries really piss me off.
>>
>>118569522
>18+
It's onl 18+ because it has sex in it, you can throw sex in anything and it will magically become 18+
>>
>>118564073

caster is so fucking weak she's dying to ebola in the new route
>>
>>118569497
>that ceased to be true
I'll say it again.
The Kaleidoscope is a fundamental part of the Nasuverse cosmology, like TYPEs and sentient planets and Demons and shit.

The entire Holy Grail War thing is partially based on the Second Magic, which is basically "abusing the Kaleidoscope for fun and profit".
>>
>>118569497
Parallel universes existing is fundamental to the plot of UBW.
>>
>>118569450
>/a/ is not a hive mind
How to spot a hiveminder.
>>
>>118569599
What you fail to recognize is that Shonen is not a fucking genre, but a demographic. I can slap 18+ on Doraemon and make it seinen.

>>118569497
>what is Zelretch
>>>/v/
>>
>>118569522
This Chair was a fucking stellar scene though.
For the first time during Turkey Handle I could really identify with Shiki
>>
>>118569597
Um, yeah. No, I know "Fate has always been /a/", but it's stupid as shit, considering it's NOT ANIME YOU FUCKING FAGGOT. Is this board called /vna/ For VN and ANIME? NO, you cock munching faggot. What? Just because we've always had political threads, we should allow them? Is that how we're going to play this game? No fuck off. That was stupid, and it will ALWAYS be stupid, no matter how much you try to pull that shit. Cancer is Cancer even if it was older than 4chan.
>>
Fate/Stay Night noob here, can someone please tell me if it was ever explained within the games or elsewhere why all the servants are always the opposite gender of the person who summons them? Or is it just a "coincidence"?
>>
>>118569198
more or less, It's like trying to adapt a ballet into a stage play or something equally transformative so we give Ufo a lot of slack for not being DEEN, but this adaption is still lacking ( or did that scene with Archer and Shirou make you think that they agree on nearly everything his saying?)
>>
>>118569497
>i've only watched the anime
>>
>>118569599
This. The actual story and content is chunni to the core.

Its shonen with sex.
>>
>>118569599
And something is only shounen/shouju/seinen/josei because they decide to run it in a magazine that is part of said demographic. Terraformars and Kingdom aren't really all that much different than other WSJ battle manga but they're still seinen.
>>
>>118569709
>why all the servants are always the opposite gender of the person who summons them
That's not true, considering Apocrypha and Zero and Stay Night and Extra.
It just feels that way right now
>>
>>118569522
>Do you even know what that word means, newfag?
>18+ is not shonen.

As >>118569599 states, the only reason for that designation is due to the erotic content. The manga adaptation was even published in a shounen magazine. If we're really going to be debating the definition of the term, I'm surprised you didn't talk about how it's actually demographic and not a genre (though even that is a stupid point because there are many things that series aimed at that demographic can be assumed to have in common, hence its alternate usage in this thread).
>>
>>118569709
>all the servants are always the opposite gender of the person who summons them

That statement is not true, even with Fate/Stay Night. Sakura summoned Rider.
>>
>>118569709
They aren't the original summoners in half the cases you've seen and there are more that haven't shown up yet.
>>
>>118569709
It's a coincidence because it's not even true.
>>
>>118569709
It's just coincidence and that isn't even true. There are masters who summon servants with the same gender as them in FSN and FZ.
>>
>>118569716
>I have been logically defeated and must resort to shitflinging.
>>
>>118569450
Yes. Those people are called secondaries, newfags, and idiots who don't know the difference between a demographic and genre.

>>118569701
>considering it's NOT ANIME YOU FUCKING FAGGOT. Is this board called /vna/ For VN and ANIME? NO, you cock munching faggot. What? Just because we've always had political threads, we should allow them?
But it is.
/a/ got into it with the 2006 anime and then we read the VN when it got translated in, what, 2008?
It's been awhile. But saying FSN isn't /a/ is like saying Rozen Maiden or CG isn't /a/. It's always been a part of the culture

>Cancer is Cancer even if it was older than 4chan.
What?
I don't think you know what "cancer" means either.

>>118569709
Lurk moar.
>>
>>118569522

>Do you even know what that word means, newfag?
>18+ is not shonen.

It was filled with eroge content to make it sell. It's literally a shounen with porn thrown into it
>>
>>118567710
Source? Google gives me nothing
>>
>>118569426
If you think about it, many people don't like HF not because of the deconstruction of Shirou's ideals or Sakura, but because the pacing was piss poor. There were only a few good scenes in an otherwise boring route. Contrast with something like UBW, until the after Caster was dealt with UBW was the most boring of the routes. Fate had nothing special but was a good hook for the other routes and such, but UBW kinda killed that hook. My desire to see a Sakura route pushed through though, was a little disappointed with HF but it still was my favorite route.
>>
>>118569522
>Muramasa or Demonbane or Kikokugai. Those Nitro+ games are chuuni as shitty
Only the last battle of Maou and Eiyu can really be called flashy in Muramasa, rest is made of flying acrobatic and every moves being important, you have a fight in chapter 5 that last like 30 minutes despite being about one move only.

Tne imagery used in FSN is childish to say the least, you probably are an agth fag so it probably passed above your head though, if you want actual stylistic repetition and cool imagery go read something by Sakurai or something
>>
>>118563555
>How the fuck are people in Fate/Stay Night able to hold their own against serv-
Command Seals.
Now fuck off. /thread
>>
>>118569842
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/fatestay-night-i-really-hate-kiritusugu-doujinshi/c0/all
>>
>>118569347
>bankai it takes many many years to develop one!!! don't worry ichigo with this convenient plot device you can have one in just three days!
>reality marble it takes many many years to have one!!! oh how convenient this guy who was summoned is your future self and is passively feeding you all his knowledge and techniques, so you can have your own RM in only a few days!!!
>>
>>118569597
>>>/jp/
>>
>>118569810
>I'm ignoring the people who refuted my claim and am focusing on the person who didn't bother because other people beat him to it.
>>
What makes something "shounen", if not the demographic? Anyone? Does this term which apparently forms the basis of 70% of complaints about FSN actually have a fucking definition?
>>
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>>118569884
Thank you
>>
>>118569900
The term forms the basis of 90% of all complaints of anything that isn't cute girls doing cute things. Seriously, did you fate faggots not notice this until now?
>>
>>118569900
People use "shounen" when they really mean "battle". Yes, it's dumb and they are dumb.
>>
>>118569851
I'll like to add that the fights in Mahoyo (mostly chapter 5) and DDD are much better written mostly because Nasu learned how to write since.

In Japan lots of people even consider Tsukihime to have better fights than FSN, it's actually a pretty common complain
>>
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>>118569763
>
As >>118569599 states, the only reason for that designation is due to the erotic content. The manga adaptation was even published in a shounen magazine. If we're really going to be debating the definition of the term, I'm surprised you didn't talk about how it's actually demographic and not a genre (though even that is a stupid point because there are many things that series aimed at that demographic can be assumed to have in common, hence its alternate usage in this thread).
Shonen encompasses too much to be used as a genre. Or do you think that To Love Ru and Bleach and Nozaki-Kun are fundamentally the same genre?

If the manga adaptation was published in a Shonen magazine, that makes THAT shonen. Be sure to bring it up if we ever have a Fate manga thread.

Otherwise, the game and the core content is 18+.

The only people who use "shonen" to generalize manga like Naruto and Bleach are newfriends and casuals whose only exposure to Shonen is through those dumb manga.
>>
>>118563555
f/sn master are stronger
_ is the redman etc
>>
>>118569900
what actually makes a show/manga/game "chuuni" is usually the presentation. It's kinda derogatory in the same way as how some people tend to look down comic book or videogame style works in the west which try super hard to be taken seriously.

When you have something like Naruto or One Piece, where it's clearly targeted at kids and not trying to be anything more, that's not really chuuni because it knows what it is. But when you have those same elements but in a more "serious" context where the authors clearly seem to be taking everything seriously even though it has ridiculous stuff like "The 5th Holy Grail War" and all sorts of made up "rules" and characters shouting attacks while doing them, that's definitely what people would call "chuuni". That also includes all sorts of references to "cool" stuff like [The Mage Association] and so on. It's just viewed as very childish manchildren stuff. Yes, stuff like Xenogears and FFXV are totally viewed that way too.

I guess one parallel in a western context would be the term "syfy". It doesn't mean the same thing, but in cultural tone it's similar in the sense that it's a critique by viewers comparing actual scifi works which are approached in good faith, and scifi works which are just pandering dumbed down stuff meant to hook dumb audiences with superficial presentation and garbage worldbuilding which relies on twists and poorly thought out but cool sounding stuff. Oh, and I guess "phantasy" works the same way too.
>>
>>118569900
Shonen is an insult because it is in practice a genre

Just like anime is an art style
>>
>>118569834
And again, you miss the point. Shonen isn't a collection of tropes, it's a fucking demographic.

Oh, so Love Hina with porn becomes FSN? Don't be a retard.

It's literally an action series with porn to make it sell. Maybe. But calling it Shonen is stupid.
>>
>>118569709
4th war:
>Waver (gay) summons Rider (greek sexuality)
>Ryunousuke (gay, crazy) summons Caster (pedophile, crazy)
>Kayneth (stupid, Sola-Ui) summons Lancer (deermud)
>Kotomine (asexual) summons Assassin (dozens of cocks and vaginas)
>Tokiomi (stupid, arrogant, straight) summons Gilgamesh (stupid, arrogant, probably fucked Enkidu and liked it)
>>
If 'muh multiverse' was true, why didn't nasu include it in the anime?
>>
>>118569900
The only definition the word has is it's use as a demographic in the context of manga. Otherwise it's just a buzzword to insult action manga due to the popularity of DB, OP, Naruto, and Bleach and how they all ran in a magazine called weekly shounen jump. A more proper term that people use more often now is "battle shounen" but even that doesn't really work since there are seinen manga that are similar to battle shounen series, and battle shounen overall doesn't have a real concrete definition other than being an action series.
>>
>>118570048
>/a/ uses shonen as a genre when its insulting
>o but its actually a demographic when talking about fate/shit
:^)
>>
>>118569887
First off, Shirou's Reality Marble HAD been developing for years. Even discounting the time Archer spent on it. The hard part isn't making your inner world, the hard part is understanding it (which Archer just spent most of the route hammering into Shirou) and actually manifesting it.

Second, the difference is that in Bleach, these training plot devices are brought up on the fly, whereas Archer has clearly existed since the beginning of the story. It's the difference between an asspull the author throws together at the last minute, and something that the story is built around from the very beginning.
>>
>>118570060
How about the fact both UBW and HF are being adapted? I mean, of course they're not going to animate the bad ends.
>>
>>118563555
Rin's a genius mage and the best she's ever done is a defensive fight against a Servant.

Kuzuki was buffed by Caster who basically has the highest level magic from the Age of the Gods. Plus he's got that fucking one-trick pony technique which he spent pretty much all of his natural life practicing and refining for no well-known reason. It's no surprise he beat the shit out of Rider and Saber, and he'd beat any Servant that was dumb enough to get in CQC with him. Only Servants that could shrug him off would be anybody that would prefer ranged attacks (Archer) and Berserker. Plus the second time he's fought his technique is useless.

Shirou's hardly at that level in Fate, but he is in UBW and HF. In the former case he has a goddamn Reality Marble and the latter case he has a Servant arm. For all intents and purposes he's the closest thing to a real life Servant than most magi alive.
>>
>>118568727
Yellow, or blue
>>
>>118567460
90% of the "concept" might come from Type-Moon, but that's very different from the execution. Urobuchi did not write the novels based on any fixed outline or even a summary of major events. Instead he created most of the actual story himself based on the rough boundaries of what the story would have to be about. Nasu acknowledges him as a very good writer, which is why they wanted him to do Fate/Zero in the first place. It would be pointless if all he contributed was rewriting something which already existed.

No one disputes that Nasu has very good ideas. He's an idea man. But his actual writing and execution for stories is pretty horrid. The way he develops characters and the dialogue he writes is generally pure trash. His scenarios are also bogged down with shitty crap which doesn't make the best use of the good general ideas.

This is why Fate/Zero is not considered purely a Type-Moon work. Because it is written by a writer who actually knows how to use the good ideas well, and craft a compelling story with good characters in it.
>>
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>>118570048

>But calling it Shonen is stupid.

Let's play a game

Remove the porn from FSN

What demographic does it belong to?
>>
>>118569851
>Tne imagery used in FSN is childish to say the least, you probably are an agth fag so it probably passed above your head though, if you want actual stylistic repetition and cool imagery go read something by Sakurai or something
What the fuck does "childish imagery" even mean? That makes no sense.

There's no such thing as "actual" or "fake" stylistic repetition, you know. If you want to make a point about Sakurai compared to fate, actually make a point instead of just acting condescending.

That said it's always nice to know /a/ isn't all EOPs.
>>
>>118569497
I'm sure you noticed some guys during the summoning scenes say something about an ancestor called "Schweinorg" right?
That's Kishua Zelretch Schweinorg, the old guy who saved humanity once a long time ago by defeating Crimson Moon Brunestud.
He's also the guy who helped Nagato and the other founders with the Holy Grail Ritual and handed him the blueprints for the Jewel Sword Zelretch.

That, possibly same, Zelretch is also responsible for the events of Prisma Illya.

>>118570060
It has already come up multiple times.
You're just too much of a secondary to notice.
It'll be right in your face once the show is over.

I'll give you a hint: Shirou is the white man
>>
>>118569999
Tell me what Terra e..., Aku no Hana, Death Note, Akumetsu, Gunslinger Girl, or the Koe no Katachi oneshot have in common, besides them being of the shounen demographic. It is definitely not a genre and only casuals think so.
>>
>>118569999
>shonen
>genre
>>>/reddit/

>>118570106
Not really, the label applies for a large swath of japanese media.
>>
>>118569949
>In Japan lots of people even consider Tsukihime to have better fights than FSN, it's actually a pretty common complain
I really REALLY doubt this is true. No sane person would say the fights in a work with production values as poor as Tsukihime has better fights than FSN. Even on /a/ no one ever really remembers or praises the battles in Tsukihime.
>>
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>>118569824
>Yes. Those people are called secondaries, newfags, and idiots who don't know the difference between a demographic and genre.

See >>118569763.

If someone told you that X series was a battle shounen, you would have a pretty good idea of what the story would be like, correct? That's because even though the term refers a demographic, it also has a lot of implications due to expectations built up from years of industry standards.

>>118569970
Same point for you. You're right that shounen in and of itself doesn't carry much meaning, but you would likely know what I would mean if I described a romantic subplot being shounen rather than josei.
>>
>>118570149
>defending a series writing because it relies on asspull time travel

Through the looking glass
>>
>>118570145
>/a/ is one person
pls go and stay go, shitposter
>>
>>118570199
This.
>>
>>118570145
>/a/ is one person
>>
>>118567817
From what I recall he was trained to only do one mission and then kill himself afterwards. But when he carried it out in a very anticlimactic fashion (I don't think he even got to use his technique) he wasn't sure what to feel anymore and then just went to the teaching thing instead.
>>
>>118570302
>>118570315
>/a/ isn't a hugbox hivemind
>>
>>118570250
You're just using "asspull" to mean "something I don't like" there. Opinion invalidated.
>>
>>118570199
>>118570303
>missing the point this hard
None. Realta Nua got a C-rating, but even that isn't the Shonen age range.

Now can you faggots who insist on using Shonen as a genre fuck off back where you came?
>>
>>118570181
You are acting as if the HF films weren't gonna be about Superhero Shirou.
>>
>>118570401

>Now can you faggots who insist on using Shonen as a genre fuck off back where you came?
>Both are talking about demographic

Speaking of missing the point
>>
>>118570393
>time travel
>good writing
Pick one chump

You're not allowed to have an opinion on plot if you think time travel doesn't invalidate everything.
>>
>>118570203
>What the fuck does "childish imagery" even mean?
The use of vocabulary, grammar, involvment of a thematic, etc...
A well used "imagery" is both vivid and has a relation to the scene/character in question, his train of though, etc...
In FSN it's just used for effect, there is no real 関連性, the use of vocabulary is also pretty poor.
I reread FSN not long ago so it's still pretty vivid in my mind, Nasu style can only be called childish in it
>>
>>118570249
So call it "battle manga" or something.
Using shonen to describe a genre is stupid.

I don't think Fate has all that much in common with Naruto or Bleach, but that's besides the point. The point is that /a/ is infested with retards who use "shonen" to describe a genre.

>Same point for you. You're right that shounen in and of itself doesn't carry much meaning, but you would likely know what I would mean if I described a romantic subplot being shounen rather than josei.
Not really. Especially for shonen, which is the demographic with the most varied array of genres in it.
>>
>>118570454
You're fucking retarded.
>why no multiverse?
>the two routes who depend on a multiverse ebing a thing are being adapted
>>
>>118570401
Sorry kiddo, published in a shonen manga

Jump off a bridge
>>
>Average TM thread
>Everyone is a broken shell of a person
>Constantly trying to find fulfillment for wading through these threads and arguing incessantly
>Never understand how retarded they are because they don't have a heroine from TM

FSN has the deepest lore
>>
>>118570539
What if I wasn't arguing against the obviously true existence of the Kaleidoscope and instead against Heaven's Feel?
>>
>>118570454
What, they're still 2 different canon outcomes to the same story, that's what you asked for.
>>
>>118570472
But they're not.

They're trying to make a point that Fate shares similarities to battle manga. Which is a fair point if they didn't call it Shonen.

Not only is that stupid, it undermines their argument because it shows they're filthy crossboarders.

>>118570486
>What is BttF 1 2 3
Great scott

>>118570541
Okay
Go make a thread about the fate manga then.
>>
>>118570630
>different
>canon
You keep using that word.jpg
>>
>>118570652

>because it shows they're filthy crossboarders.

Are we going back to scapegoating invisible boogeyman again? Fate threads are perfectly capable of breeding their own retards.
>>
>>118570610
Well, then I'd be confused, because you implied that they implied something that wasn't implied.
>>
The biggest problem with fate, is the problem most anime have problems with. You see, for years people have been building it up, bigger and bigger, it became more and more attached to the board, fate fags as primaries were fairly old. On the other hand, Shounen as an insult, and even used as a genre continued to become bigger and bigger as well. Then, out of the side came the F/Z crowd. The people who came into this thinking fate was a mature anime, not like those OTHER battle anime.(VN)

So now we come to the eruption of it. The fate fags who doomed their show to stupid criticsm, due to using Shounen as a catch all for insults. Making Shounen an inherently bad thing, put fate, which had a lot of Shounen(as in typical Shounen) elements into the same area as it, and the F/Z crowd who wanted "mature anime for mature people" realized it wasn't the case.

Anyway this is equivilent to someone complaining about cartoons being too violent, and mindless, and then their kids watch an episode of Tom and Jerry, and start calling them out for that bullshit.
>>
>>118570193
>Because it is written by a writer who actually knows how to use the good ideas well

I though it was written by Urobuchi
>>
>>118570693
Is pretending to be retarded fun?
>>
>>118570652
>>What is BttF 1 2 3
3 wasn't as good as 1 and 2.
>>
>>118570716
Now, to truly blow your mind:
I'm not the guy arguing against the Kaleidoscope.
>>
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>>118564028
You made my day, anon.
>>
>>118570693
Multiverse means everything is canon.

>>118570705
Then why is it that TM threads all of a sudden became filled with people who haven't played the game, VN haters, normalfags and secondaries THE MOMENT the UBW anime aired?

Don't deny the obvious. 30% might be the original TMfags but most are normalfags and /v/ermin.
>>
>>118568160
You people be using chuuni wrong. It's not a fucking buzzword .
>>
>>118570705
>crossboarders
>boogeyman
Did you see the poll
>>
>>118570794

>Then why is it that TM threads all of a sudden became filled with people who haven't played the game, VN haters, normalfags and secondaries THE MOMENT the UBW anime aired?

Fate threads have been filled with people who haven't read the VN for years. We even have people who read the VN and don't understand it. Crossboarders are a minor problem when the main fanbase are literally too stupid to understand something they read.
>>
>>118570726
Indeed, autistic NEET aging manchildren (I.e. VNfags) become _very_ angry when it's pointed out their medium is actually the same shonen/chunni shit they disparage the big 3 for being.
>>
>>118570794
In all fairness, you can't say for certain that they're all from /v/ or other boards. And not all boards are bad, and neither are all posters who post on multiple boards.

Call the shitty people in the thread what they are: the worst of the seasonal anime crowd. The SAOfags, the SnKfags, and such.
>>
>>118570884
>implying
Dude, back in 2010 literally everyone has read the game.
But you can't deny it's become filled with secondary and weak, /v/ tier trolls.

>>118570910
See what I mean.
>>
>>118570652

>What is bttf 1 2 3

The Biff storyline in the second movie actually doesn't make sense.
>>
>>118570794
Anon, what? We've been dealing with that since before Fate/Zero got adapted, although that was when it really started getting bad. Back then it was people who were solely interested in the girls and only knew elements of the story through lurking the threads or reading the wiki.
>>
>>118570794
Maybe because. Get this, pause...think about it. Secondaries, and normalfags come from people watching the anime, the VN haters existed since fate has been a thing, and this might surprise you but, wait. Pause. /a/ is full of people who don't like fate as well, and the best way to guarantee a hatebase, is to have it put in plain view several times a day, with several threads a day.
>>
I never read the VN so I can't tell but people tell me Fate Zero > Heaven Feel or whatever is the best route who's name I can't remember, from what people say.

If the plot is better focused and paced in Fate/Zero, what do you think it says about Fate/Stay Night.
>>
>>118570937
Alright
Fuck off, seasonal anime crowd

Keep it up. You don't want Fate to go the way the SnK fanbase went. Speculation and cool shit and OC replaced by shipping and newfaggotry
>>
>>118570794
>more than one thing canon
No.
>>
>>118570986
That you're posting copy pasta from June 6 2014.
>>
>>118570986
I can't even read this
>>
>>118570976
Yes, it died down after Zero.

>>118570985
True
>ellipses
Stop posting like a retard, newfag
>>
>>118566658
>rin
>strong
She fucking throws batteries at people that took her 10 years to charge.
>>
>>118570949

>Dude, back in 2010 literally everyone has read the game.

Most of the people who argued TM then, and today, go off second hand knowledge from threads or the wiki. The airing anime has increased the number of secondaries, sure, but it's not some magical new phenomenon.
>>
>VNeets this angry their hugbox has been disrupted
>>
>>118571067
..............................................................................................................

faggot...I'll...use...elipses...every...where..I..w...a...n...t...
>>
>>118571077
>that took her 10 years to charge.
That's wrong.
I don't even know where people get that from.
Her entire stack of gems together took her roughly 10 years to "fill".
And she mainly uses those because making a long-ass incantation during a fight is stupid as hell
>>
>>118571077
Rin goes on to become one the top 100 magi in the entire history of the Clock Tower. She's incredibly strong. Mostly due to winning the genetic lottery with her affinity and magic circuits, which puts her head and shoulders above the vast majority of magi. But it's not just the raw potential and power, she's got incredibly keen intuition for magic, in HF she managed to replicate the 2nd true magic, which alone would be enough to make her famous.
>>
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CCC is at least five times as insane, plot is huge this time around, 80% as much dialogue as all of F/SN, Nasu's final full length Fate game to go out on, so much more character interaction, and just way more plot in general.

It has a top layer of fanservice all over like a cake, but underneath that there's some decent content and depth. It's Ataraxia + Heaven's Feel after all, a lot of shit during the normal scenes are taken less serious as there's more humor to be found and general fucking around with the entire cast, but there is some nice drama as well. There's one-liners and jokes everywhere when the cast are screwing around, but there's also that nice sort of Fate SUFFERING. Hundreds dying in the first two dungeon alone as it feels a bit horror with no hope this time around, but there's a nice balance.

Costumes are a thing
>>
>>118571077
First, that's not exactly something every magus in the Nasuverse can do. Tohsakas can do it, Edelfelts can do it, Zelretch can do it, and probably some other families here and there, but not everyone.

Second, how does that make her any less powerful? Is a D&D 3.5e Wizard any less top-tier because he goes into every encounter with a ton of scrolls and wands he bought or crafted offscreen between sessions? Of course not.

Third, even without the stockpile of gems, she's still a very powerful magus. She has a LOT of circuits of extremely good quality, giving her power, and has Average One status, giving her great versatility.
>>
>people literally attempting to defend the writing merit of an omnipandering choose-your-own-headcanon franchise.
>>
Heaven's Feel (last two days) > Fate/Zero > Unlimited Blade Works > Fate/Extra > Fate > Literal shit > The rest of Heaven's Feel
>>
>>118571283
Sorry, but HF is a single package, you don't just get to pare off the parts you don't like.
>>
>>118571281
>People literally attempting to defend the merit of Vietnamese mud drawings
>>
>>118571167
>Her entire stack of gems together took her roughly 10 years to "fill".
This is precisely what I meant. I didn't say "battery" I said "batteries".
>>
>>118571281
You know, your writing/trolling style has its own character to it, it's pretty obvious when you start it. Congratulations, I guess.
>>
>>118571336
The wording's a bit ambiguous, it could have very well meant that every gem took her 10 years to charge.
>>
>>118571283
Why do you always divide HF? The other part's pretty good too, just slower. Certainly not worse than Fate.
>>
>>118571336
And why is that bad exactly? It shows a great deal of prudence and forethought to prepare that much magical power in advance. If she never fought in the Grail War she'd have a huge supply of magical power at her disposal throughout her life, conceivably would continue to add to it well into adulthood.
>>
>>118571356
Really? I saw it, and it was pretty generic.
>>
>>118571356
There's no better way to describe this tripe than choose-your-own-headcanon

However I didn't invent said term I borrowed it
>>
I think Mashroom just likes putting Masters fight against Servants. So the Servants are actually not that dominant as one may think. If F/Z was wrote by Nasu there would definitely be some "Kiritsugu going ham on a Servant" scenes.
>>
>>118571283
Re-reading HF right now, and the beginning parts are really great. It's amazing how much more fast paced and different the story is this time around. Only the 9th day, and technically four servants are dead, you have this mysterious shadow going around killing people, and who knows what crazy antics Zouken and Assassin are up too. And there have only been four cooking scenes which are each no more than two paragraphs worth of text at best.
>>
File: FSN 2006.png (981KB, 708x1594px) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
FSN 2006.png
981KB, 708x1594px
>>118571311
Sorry, Fate/stay night is a single package, you don't just get to pare off the parts you don't like.
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