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What exactly makes something edgy or grimdark? How would you

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What exactly makes something edgy or grimdark? How would you define these two terms?
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Unnecessarily brutal, giving no relief of emotional tensions, etc
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Some edge is okay, like if the Mc is likable and doesn't look like a schoolgirl faggot.

Examples: Berserk, Shamo
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>>116865938
Edgy has been abused to the point where it's lost all meaning. Grimdark never really HAD a meaning in the first place; it came about as a way to mock Warhammer 40000's tagline.
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>>116865938
Edgy is the term that moefag use everytime there is a little bit of violence.
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>>116866731
This

Edgy used to mean Gritty but now has been worn out to the point of the fedora meme.
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>>116865938
You look at anything that the faggot that wrote Elfen Lied ever made, and you have your answer.

It's more about tone. It's about a puerile fixation on trying to impress or shock you with "mature" elements of violence, sex, and nihilism. It won't have context, it won't have reason. Everyone in the whole world's going to be a dick for no reason, rape just happens because everyone is scum, and nobody is going to have the shred of decency or humanity to add meaning to the events occurring.

Edgy is what happens when you take the discretion out of tragedy.
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>>116866795
You're not technically wrong, but that's just another corrupted meaning of edgy.

Originally it just meant it was trying something that has never been tried before.
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>>116866167
>Guts
>Likable

Honestly I kept going with berserk for a while just to see what horrible thing he'd do next. I dropped it somewhere after they killed the sea god.
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>>116866955
>I dropped it somewhere after they killed the sea god.
>over 300 long chapters in.

I agree though, early on guts was great.
>tfw chewing on child entrails.
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Something like Elfen Lied irks me because the tragedy it tries portray isn't done in a convincing manner, characters act in an unnatural way simply to facilitate the tragedy happening and to tug at the heartstrings of the viewer. I wouldn't care about the gore if it wasn't just blatant sideshow pandering on top of a plot without integrity that pretends to be deep and meaningful.
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>>116865938
Edgy is where there is violence, hate, sex and in general "mature themes" just for the sake of having "mature themes" i.e somebody randomly getting a blowjob while on the phone in a parking lot for no good reason and he or she is never seen again or killing and torturing side characters just emphasize how evil or hated that character should be.
Grimdark is forcing tragedy and sadness into the story by either just killing off characters in an unnecessarily brutal or traumatic ways or making everybody broody and dark.
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>>116866870
Wouldn't Kite be edgy then?
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>>116865938
Involving 'dark' and 'cruel' things for the sake of shocking and displeasing the audience. Things that do not need to be in the story for it to make sense, but were included nevertheless.

See
>http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkerAndEdgier
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>>116867450
Your argument was fine, why did you have to ruin your credibility by linking to tvtropes?
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>>116867164
>or killing and torturing side characters just to show how evil or hated that character should be

Then how do you do it? If I were to write a villain I wanted people to push as pure evil without any sympathetic motives, I'd show them completing a rampage before even meeting the heroes just for shits and giggles. How else am I going to make everyone think they're absolutely no good besides a cheesy monologue about sadism? I want people to think they're an absolute monster without having to resort to shit like rape or torture and showing blatant absence of value for life is the best way to go.
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>>116867641
Because the villain should be doing it for some reason, not just because he's really really evil.

In that case the villain himself is edgy.
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>>116867641
Massacres don't instantly make a character unlikable.
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>>116867606
Because I see nothing wrong in tvtropes.
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>>116867641
Because villains who are evil for the sake of being evil are boring.
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>>116865938
I don't even know what edgy means now
My definition was doing something out of the normal to get a reaction but now to most anons it's a lot of violence
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The real question is why are these bad trates. If 'dark and edgy' are bad than shouldn't their opposites be good. Why should something be 'light and non offensive' like terrible family comedies
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>>116867858
More like badly written, amirite?
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>>116867851
It's not really wrong per se, but neither can it be used as a credible source to explain the meaning of different terms, since the articles are almost exclusively built on original research by the autists active at the site.
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>>116867947
If you by all means want a villain that is evil for the sake of being evil, there is no other way to write them than by doing evil things. They just have no room for growth, and are thus boring.
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Pele pele medusa magico is the neo genesis elevation of our time
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>>116867944
It's not the case. Edginess and grimdark often are closely related to poor writing as people who have skill know better to avoid such elements so as not to turn their work into an unintentional comedy.
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>>116867851
>>116868007
>tvtropes
>nothing wrong
lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O60H4_QA8JI&list=UUas6oE6dBhtl3pCD4i5JupA
This is the people that moderate tvtroopes
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>>116867848
Of course not. Joker and Frieza excel at it and they're both considered fun, classic villains. But how do you make someone both a monster and charming at the same time?
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>>116868062
How about Kotomine Kirei?
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Is tokyo ghoul considered edgy?
The eating and violence scenes are part of the plot.
Is it still considered edgy?
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>>116868144
>lol

I know that retarded, complete pathetic waste of life called Chagen was once there.
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>>116868007
No better source exists I'm afraid. You are free to submit any links though
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>>116867641
>pure evil without any sympathetic motives

That's not a character; it's a cardboard cutout. There isn't anyone who's older than 12 years old that thinks that sort of villain is cool or interesting. For that matter, it's not even an appropriate way to handle villains whose whole deal is that they're "pure evil" or whatever.

Look at Kirei from FSN. If he was your generic evil priest (like his predecessor in Prototype), he would be an extremely forgettable character. It's precisely because he has a conflict between his inborn nature and his acquired sense of morality that he's interesting and compelling.
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>>116868149
Learn form your master.
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>>116868238
That's because a lot of the terms and tropes featured on the site aren't rigidly defined and determined. Thus, you should present your own opinion instead of referring people to tvtropes as source, since it's not.
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>>116868202
I don't consider it edgy. If it's edgy then it's vanilla edgy, far from true edginess.
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>>116868403
what the fuck does that even mean
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>>116868292
>It's precisely because he has a conflict between his inborn nature and his acquired sense of morality that he's interesting and compelling
Exactly.

And I wouldn't consider him a villain. I mean, everyone in Fate is an asshole with a twisted view on the world.
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>>116868403
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>>116868381
I agree with what was written on the linked page.
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>>116868446
>>116868483
It's just something I came up with. Bear with me.
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>>116866897
>Originally it just meant it was trying something that has never been tried before.
This. It's why "bleeding edge" is used in technology for unstable releases.
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>>116868539
Even if you have detailed write-ups for all your opinions that you can refer people to you should still be able to argue for them yourself, lest you want to look like a complete tool.
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>>116868616
can you explain
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>>116868679
Surely not on /a/ though.
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>>116868728
> XDD
Leave.
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>>116867164
>somebody randomly getting a blowjob while on the phone in a parking lot for no good reason
Sex isn't based on reason.

>killing and torturing side characters
>what are sociopaths?

>>116867746
>hurr durr reason

So emotions and urges are rational now?

>>116868292
If they have any sympathetic motives, they stop being a character that the audience will hate. If the audience can't hate the character, there is far less desire to see that "villain" be defeated, whether it be ideologically or physically.

Giving a "villain" sympathy is actually more boring. You think it's not but that's just because you've been watching/reading too many stories that have an unsympathetic villain. If it was reversed, you'd find sympathetic villains boring.

Sympathetic and unsympathetic villains aren't inherently well or badly written characters. It entirely depends on the execution.
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>>116868751
You can argue the the author's choice to write a story about ghouls is in itself a bit edgy. However, all the violence and horror are well-justified to be included in the plot.
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>>116868144
Wait, is it wrong that people want Pedo content on the site or that they want to get rid of it?
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>>116865938

Stupid things that teenagers take seriously, and the rest of us laugh at them for.
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>>116868960
If a character does bad things because of emotions then I don't think he is a villain.
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>>116868981
TVTropes are removing all references to pedophilia and all works that have a character that is attracted to someone under the age of 18. If pedophilia is mentioned=topic removed
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>>116869062
Elaborate.
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>>116868981
You're fucking retarded. I bet you would be labeled a pedo too by their standards.
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>>116869135
But Anon, why are you here?
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>>116868960
>So emotions and urges are rational now?
Are you implying they are not?
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>>116867164
You really need a reason to get a blowjob?
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>>116869091
Villain =/= antagonist. A villain HAS to be evil, wheres the same does not apply to an antagonist.

It may be difficult not to sympathise with a character who does things of questionable morality due to emotional reasons, so designating the said character to be the villain in the story is like shooting yourself in the foot on the part of the creator.
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>>116868981
Obviously, the problem is that they are fucking paranoid about anything they consider "pedo". Hell, that shit is SA level of obsession regarding this matter.
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>>116868960
The reason can be emotional anon, it can't be "I like blood and violence". I can't sympathies with that reason nor can anyone else who isn't 12 or a psychopath.

Having stuff happen "just because" is not good writing. If it's also done for shock value then it's edgy.
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>>116868144
>That one guy trying to defend KnJ as not being pedo.
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>>116869799
Denial S rank right there, huh.
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>>116865938
If it's written by the butcher
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>>116868672
Cutting edge?
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>>116869716
Reason can be formed from emotions. Any premise could be rationalized. But they are often circular. They end right where they begin so there isn't much reasoning to emotions and urges.

>can't sympathies
You're not supposed to. If you can sympathize with a villain, you stop hating them. If you stop hating them, you lose the gratification of seeing them defeated.

If the main character was "I like blood and violence",then I can understand your criticism. Besides, it's very stupid to assume that "can't sympathize =/= bad writing". Maybe you can't but other people could. "Good writing" is subjective.

>If it's also done for shock value
And if it's done for "TEARS" it's retarded. See? I can't say stupid things as well.
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>>116865938
Edgy is what I don't like
Grimdark is what I like
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>>116869471
You're assuming that if an antagonist does something because "emotions" than that makes him not a villain because the audience will sympathize?

That's not true if the antagonist' emotions are uncommon. For example, an antagonist hating people the day he could make sense of the world. Hatred is an emotion and in this case it's unwarranted.
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>>116870298
Having he main conflict being "this guy it really bad for the sake of being really bad" is poor writing.
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>>116870298
>you lose the gratification of seeing them defeated

Go back to your shounen manga please.
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>>116870503
>You're assuming that if an antagonist does something because "emotions" than that makes him not a villain because the audience will sympathize?

Exactly. Or at least you will have people arguing about it.
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>>116870503
>hating people the day he could make sense of the world

Edgy
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I believe a lot of it comes down to what is the motivation behind how a character acts.

Take Character A and B, they both are High School Grads and they both "Hate Humanity" to use an cliche term.

Character A hate humanity because he either read it in a book or on the internet but has no personal reason for that hate, he has never been bullied, he has a decent home life, etc.

Character B Hates Humanity for some personal reasons, say in high school the captian of the baseball team and his flunkies beat the shit out of character B after school and the School Admins gave them a slap on the wrist because the Baseball captain was also the star player and the school was going to regionals.

In these cases I would say Character A is Edgy, Character B is not.

Looking at THE KING example of Edge, Sasuke, I would not have called him Edgy until after his fight with Itachi when he learned the truth of his family's death. Before then he was just an asshole, but he had a real reason to be dark and unhappy, but once he learned the truth and largely lost that reason but persisted on THEN he because Edgy, at least for me.
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>>116871183
More like character A is chuuni instead of edgy, amirite?
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>>116865938

Clich├ęd forced drama with autism. Because fuck knowing how to use words properly to express your criticism.
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>>116871315

Eh, it would depend on how strong that belief was, if it is just for show then yeah Chunni, but if they really believed it then they are just and edgy faggot
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>>116865938
I would say that something is edgy or grimdark when you parents raised a pussy.
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>>116871385
If it's words and words alone I think the character is still not edgy, however, what he says is (all that 'I hate the world' bullshit).
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>>116871517

yeah I guess, The words he/she say are edgy, and they would just be a dick unless they acted out on those words or toughts, THEN they would be edgy
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>>116866167
Shamo was so fucking dark.
>Goes to the mountain to train with some old guy and a qt grill
>Think hes finally going to find love and end up defending the girl or something and become his waifu
>SHE DIES A VIRGIN
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so basically is forced tragedy shock?
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Edgy is hard to define but easy to spot. AgK for example is edgy as hell.
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>>116865938
Edgy and grimdark are terms whose current use are born from /v/.
Anyone who uses those terms seriously is a colossal faggot and should be ignored.
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>>116872104

Or Tragic actions that have no real reason to happen. And GrimDark, is a setting that is dominated by edginess, or just needlessly oppressive atmosphere.
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>>116866870
>Edgy is what happens when you take the discretion out of tragedy.
Alright, I can get behind this. Makes it a bit less of a meaningless buzzwords only used by retards. Now explain "grimdark".
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edgy/grimdark = everything that's not moe
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>>116866955
Sea God "fight" is one of my most loved ones in the series, Miura really portrayed the intense struggle, overwhelming situation, and powerfully claustrophobic feeling of trying to walk up to the building-sized heart of a gargantuan beast. If there was any situation that I thought was hopeless for Guts, it was that one, trying to push against a steady beat that released vibrations strong enough to nearly kill you each time.
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>>116872545
grimdark is just a buzzword made up to make fun of W40K. It doesn't really mean anything but it used as a synonym for gritty especially for futuristic settings now.
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>>116867641
>pure evil without any sympathetic motives
Well there's your first mistake, never write a villian like that because that's fucking retarded an literally no real person ever is like that.
Even the most psychotic mass-murdering rapist have motives. Maybe they're insane and believe killing will help the world or help them? Maybe rape is the only way they can get the voices in their head to stop? Maybe they have some moral code where everyone that he can take advantage of deserves it because they're too weak to stop him. ect, ect, ect. There is always a way to give even the worst, most dispicable villian a motive and explanation.
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>>116868164
See
>>116868292
>>
When things get so badass that certain shit happens in the plot that don't need explaining because it's so le awesome.
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>>116872687
Whereas 'gritty' has positive connotations, 'grimdark' has not. It's mostly used when attempting to criticise something.
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>>116872928
Go write about it on your blog, edgelord.
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>>116872928
Stop right there.
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>>116865938

>edgy grimark brutal whatever_squall.jpg

Only a kid is amazed the first time he sees blood and death people only for some "deep plot".
Remember when western animation was like this?
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>>116868960
Villians don't have to be sympathetic, but they sure as hell do need to have motives and reasons for their actions.
There are tons of villians an audience will hate despite having some sympathetic parts. Look at Griffith, probably one of the most hated anime/manga characters ever, when really it was an entire year's worth of horrendous torture, so that even when his old friends broke him out of the dungeon, he was happy, but quickly realised that despite all of his ambitions, all of his success, everything, just because Guts leaving made him unstable and vulnerable for one night, leading to one mistake, because of that one simple thing, he's crippled for life and can't even so much as stand on his own. Even sitting upright was damaging his body if he put too much effort into it. He couldn't control his limbs, he would never talk again, the list goes on. He would never accomplish anything ever again, and then a bunch of gods show up talking about fate and how he's destined to sacrifice his friends for them. Griffith had so much sympathy to him, and now look at the fan perception of him.
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>>116873043
They mean the same thing, people just use grimdark when they don't like it.
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>>116865938
By the modern definition, anything that isn't twee and politically correct.
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>>116870298
You have an extremely jevenile view of storytelling, particularly villians. I'm not even trying to be rude.
>If you stop hating them, you lose the gratification of seeing them defeated.
>If you can sympathize with a villain, you stop hating them
>there isn't much reasoning to emotions and urges.

>not understanding shock value
>See? I can't say stupid things as well.
Yes, yes you can say stupid things.
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>>116867164

Actually all those edgy grimdark animes are mahou shoujo shows, because the genre is dead but try too hard to be mature and gorey.
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>>116873215
>mfw genei is the only true madocrap clone
>mfw it was fucking shit too

So much for madocrap wanting to be influential and game-changer like eva
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Batman is grimdark
This shit is edgy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcIsEcZQrLc
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>>116873767
Just because it was influential and game-changing doesn't mean that suddenly tons of clones will be spawned from it. That's one of countless ways it affects the industry.
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>>116873767
What about Akuma no Riddle? And recently we got Illya.
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What would big E be like if he was converted into a loli?
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We can all agree that Berserk is edgy at least?
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>>116874029
Guts just wants to go on vacation with his waifu but the world wont let him.
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>>116873876
Holy fuck is this game made by 12 years old kids?
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>>116873969
Dead.
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>>116874210
Big E is still technically alive though, you need at least a couple of cells to be alive so that he can power the big space beacon and it all comes at the bargain price of a thousand dudes every day.
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>>116873911
>Akuma no Riddle
What about it?
>Illya
It's more like Nanoha than Madoka.
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>>116873911
Neither is like madocrap
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>>116874284
Actually the first saw was a pretty good movie and while it wasnt "deep" it had a good twist and it was entertaining even if it didnt have as much gore.
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>>116867164


This post so far reminds me that anime can actually be decent grimdark.
Compare Higurashi or Wixoss with Hannibal or Walking Dead, western grimdark is just hilarious.
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>>116865938
They are shitposting terms; you use it whenever you want to shit on any show that has death or a serious tone, if it doesn't apply you can use terms as "moeshit" and"Lol so random xD".
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>>116873969
Absolutely heretical.
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>>116873876
That was a fucking hilarious. Did nobody on the staff seriously not see how cliche and retarded every single word coming out of that guy's mouth was?
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>>116874488
You seem to be confused about their target market.
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>>116873876
>destructive creations
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>>116874130
>>116874488
It's like you don't know what marketing is
Making a huge shitstorm about your game gives it attention, and there is no such thing as bad attention when you're trying to sell something
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>>116874294
>What about it?

Crazy highschool lesbians trying to kill each other. The tonal dissonance between serious and edgy moments and the rest is comedy gold.
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Edgy means new and unusual in a provocative way and it's not linked to violence or tragedy at all.
On here though, it just means violent + "I don't like it", so basically it's lost almost all meaning and is not even worth it's own term anymore.
People just use it to sound less subjective than "I don't like it".
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>>116874622
Sounds like a serious Kill Me Baby.
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it's just a term coined by faggots who can't handle seeing a little bit of blood. violence and rape happen on a daily basis for next to no reason in the real world. try leaving the basement and you will see that the real world isn't all moe school girls
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>>116874551
Doesn't change the fact that is a fucking edgy piece of garbage
>hate humanity
>wants to die
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>>116874771
I look forward to it, it's on unreal engine so the mods are going to be fucking amazing
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>>116874738
Dammit anon, stop making me want things we can't have.
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>>116867746
>>116867848
>>116867858
>>116868292
>>116872876
What if it was not that the villain in question had no reason, but that their motives are completely impossible to sympathize with? Enjoying despair and suffering is just part of showing how lacking in decency or compassion they are before anyone gets the wrong idea that they're just misunderstood.
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>>116875753
>completely impossible to sympathize with
>completely

Then you are writing a cartoonish villain for a comic show.
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>>116875914
Then how do you make someone that the audience hates as a person, but loves to watch in action? That's the best way I can put this.
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>>116875753
If you don't sympathize with the villain even a little bit there is no internal conflict for the viewer to go through.

It just becomes a moment of cheap catharsis when he gets fucked in the end.

This is a boring story that doesn't go anywhere and if it tires it falls flat because all it has to show you is "Look how evil this guy is. Man he's so evil. It's going to be so great when he gets corked isn't it?"
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>>116876085
I gave you an answer in >>116868368
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>>116876085
The only way to have the audience love the action of a psychopath is to have the victims so unlikable that you want them to get killed.
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>>116870298
>not supposed to sympathize with the villain
I think it's the exact opposite of that. Making a sympathetic character the villain, someone with reasonable, if twisted, motivations is much more entertaining in a story. I don't watch that much anime, but to go for a common one: Frieza in DBZ, makes a good momentary villain, you can understand he's a conqueror and if he can't get what he wants he throws a tantrum and kills things. Our hero will fight him and win, it will be satisfying only through the execution of that. I don't care that Frieza is dead, he only had this one path. Cut and dry, give me a cool fight and we're done.
Vegeta on the other hand, during the babidi arc, going back to being a villain is more satisfying. He's been working with and living in the shadow of the hero. He was always jaded but he thinks he's got a chance to become superior now. This creates a moral conflict for our hero, who sees him as a friend. We can sympathize with Vegeta, because we all know someone who's better than us in some way, and if it were to pushed in our faces our whole lives, sure we'd all want to take them down a peg.

I'd take 1 great Vegeta-style story over 100 Frieza's any day.
>>
>>116876280
Or to make the villain FABULOUS.
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>>116865938
Uses violence and trauma as a substitute for good story telling or sincerity.
>>
>>116876085
You're thinking with only absolutes. You have to have a perfect mix of alot of aspects. Make the villian unlikeable, yet sympathiseable and understandable.
Look at Gargantia, the antagonist is sympathisable and understandable because their logic runs completely on reason, yet they're doing horrible things and everything the show has done so far has built up this understanding of the value of an easy-going, non-idealised society. Because of this, even though some might agree with the villian's ideologies, they still want him to die and be defeated.
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>>116865938
By current 4chan definitions:
>edgy
Something I don't like
>grimdark
Something I don't like
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>>116867641
>>116867746
I've grown rather tired of "sympathetic" villains with "complex" motivations. I don't think evil "for the sake of evil" villains are good, but I don't think every villain needs to be some tragic powerful asshole who just has the wrong methods. I am fond of a villain who simply enjoys carnage, or does bad things but doesn't really have higher reasons. Maybe they're just greedy or maybe they get a kick out of it. I find that refreshing in this day and age.
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>>116867848
Man I swear the biggest thing that pissed me off in gantz were the civilians.

The characters themselves were up or down but the civilians and killbait were just evolutionary miracles. How they hadn't all killed themselves in their childhood before is in itself an anomaly.

>See dangerous creature and people fighting it
>"Oh wow is that tv?"

>Hear reports of an alien invasion and for people to stay inside
>"Those animatronics man, so lifelike!"

>Vampires are cutting a bloody swathe through a crowd
>"Fuck are those actors?"

Every fucking time for 300 chapters of this idiocy.
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>>116865938
Well, edgy has been twisted, as others have said, into being "I don't like it". But in terms of shows it was usually used to say something was shocking, or at least pushing the envelope towards realism (i.e. you get shot, you bleed and maybe die).
But grimdark is from /tg/, as I know it, and is a setting description, stemming from Warhammer 40k's 'brutal' future of violence and crazy stuff.
>>
>>116876902
This is what people mean when they say deep btw.

It's about what questions a story asks of it's readers.
If the only possible question that can be asked is, "Is that guy a baddie?" And the only possible answer is, "Yes" then you have a shallow story.

It's okay to like shallow garbage every once in a while because you just want some cheap catharsis and tits/explosions. But that kind of story is never going to be remembered as great.

This is why Rebellion is "deep". You have almost daily threads hitting the bump limit arguing whether Homura did the right thing or not.
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>>116876902
It's all about the execution of the villian's tactics and their personality if you ask me. Well, there's a lot of important factors, but these two are the main things that set one villian apart from another in my opinion.
I like villians with a higher motivation who resort to "evil" because they feel its necessary, but its true that not everyone can be that way. A simple villian, say someone who is just consumed by greed for cash, can also be very good so long as they have a great personality that makes you enjoy the moments when they're on screen, especially if they work their evil with clever methods that you make you excited when they fuck someone else over.
You'll like the villian simply because their behavior and rational, but still see why the protagonist needs to get rid of them. It's not like there is only one way to make a good antagonist.
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>>116874742
you say it like you're some sort of serious person living in the cold, dark and unforgiving real world, where you battle everyday just to get by.

get real.

first off,it's no news that fucked up shit goes on everyday, but what's the point of obsessing over it or to spending your day hearing stories of murder and rape if you can do nothing about it? it'll only make you mad at humanity or make you depressed. instead you could try to get money or power to actually do something about it and if you can't then you might as well watch anime or some other shit.


second, you're not any more special than anyone on this site, you're just as bad, which is why you're browsing.
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>>116873876
Paragon of edgy right here.
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>>116877219
pic related?

>>116877216
I think people keep overanalyzing Madoka and Rebellion because it begs for overanalysis, even when in the end everything is really pretty easy to understand. It borders on pretension, in my opinion.

Homura has complicated motivations but they're the sort that make me roll my eyes. Not every villain, within or without fiction, is a misguided hero. I am frankly much more fascinated with the twisted minds of "real villains", who do what they do out of compulsion or utter apathy.
>>
>>116876902
well, you could go for something like madness or corruption a la DS1/2 then. the "villain" isn't a villain because he's a cruel asshole, but rather because he's lost his mind but still stands in the way of the hero's objective. thus he must be defeated but he doesn't really have any higher goals, he just seeks endlessly for souls/blood/death whatever.


a "twist" i'd find interesting is a villain who's lost his mind, but not in that he went crazy but rather that he kinda entered his own little world of delusions, where he genuinely believes he's helping people out and saving the day when in fact he's murdering people left and right.
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>>116877219
This is why I liked Death Note. It got a little silly near the end, but it was a good "...paved with good intentions" story. Guy tries to better the world with this new power/gift, and it changes him further and further from what most people would consider good.
To go into /tv/, this is why Breaking Bad was great as well. A good person, with the best intentions, doing evil acts and becoming more corrupted by their actions, while still being able to justify their decisions. That's a good villain.
>>
I came to the conclusion that edgy works take delight in putting their characters through suffering.
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>>116877721
In the end, Walter White just did it because he enjoyed it, though.

Which, in my opinion, makes everything that came before that even better. Light, however, was a little stupid... He basically lost my support once he killed his first innocent (was it a cop? an fbi agent? I forget).
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>>116878066
What's wrong with bullying your own created characters?
>>
>>116865938
Something that tries to be "dark" or "mature", but fails miserably and just comes across as cheap and shallow.
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>>116878082
I don't think so, he didn't stop because he enjoyed it but he didn't start out that way.
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>>116877721
>...

Light didn't even have time to sink into corruption, though. By the end of the first episode he already planned to rule over a new world filled only with people he decided were good. He should have iust stuck with killing criminals to make him more morally gray and possible to actually root for. The fact that he thought he was doing the right thing when he also eliminated everyone in his way or dared to challenge him is what makes him sickening and a menace.
>>
I really fucked up the meaning of sympathetic.

A villain who means well, but feels absolutely no shame or remorse for their actions and even enjoys them. Is this too shallow or twisted for the villain to even be likable?
>>
Something like Evangelion 3.0, where the protagonist didn't actually save his girlfriend, but actually caused an apocalypse and destroyed the entire world and his friends who survived now hate him for it. So he tries to fix the world but ends up almost destroying the world again, and in the process his friend who tried to help him gets decapitated by an explosion and it's all the protagonists fault.

The end.
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>>116868202
If we're talking about the anime, then yes, it's very edgy.
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>>116877721
i highly dislike deathnote mainly because light is a retard and because the whole L thing only exists because otherwise there wouldn't be a plot.

first off, Light could have avoided it all by not killing everyone with heart attacks. if he was smart he would have made the deaths all be different from one another and possibly freak accidents. a bus driver losing control, a rock or object falling, a maniac in the crowd or a cop going apeshit and shooting the criminal, hell he could have made it so all criminals in the world caught a super violent virus or some shit, which would then be justified as some sort of pandemic.

second, sure they might have wanted to interrogate certain criminals, but create a fucking team to track a supposed criminal killer, really? if anything it would save space in the jails.

light was also very fucking dumb for not killing people worldwide rather than focusing on japan.
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>>116866870
This is actually a pretty good explanation.
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