How come all the servants aren't balanced with each others' abilities in respect? Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway? Seems like Saber and Gilgamesh just trounce on everyone else. Caster, Rider, Assassin, and Lancer are jokes in comparison. Berserker and Archer-
Emiyaare like, mid-tier at best.
>How come all the servants aren't balanced with each others' abilities in respect? Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
I don't know if you are fishing or if I should applaud you.The powers of the servants depend on the class, on the master, and on other factors. Also you can't only compare their battle strength, each servant has also unique skills that only depends on their class, Independent Action for Archers for example which makes them some of the shittiest servants for a master, for example.
Read the VN.
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
It's not a tournament to prove your skills. The ritual is meant to have one of magi to get to the Root.
The Holy Grail war needs a balance patch.
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
Yes, the Archer, Lancer and Saber classes are better. Pretty sure this was directly stated.
I always felt like Caster was never utilized to the fullest potential really, like isn't she capable of Magecraft from the Age of Gods that can do astounding things that far outclass modern magecraft? High-speed casting and huge city-sized spells and the like?
>Kirei's voice during the chinese restaurant scene
It was a different kind of boner from the ones his voice usually gives me.
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
No, the three founding families basically rigged it to give themselves every advantage possible so that they could be the ones to reach the root. The idea was to lure in a bunch of dirt secondaries with the promise of a wish if they won, then stick them with shitty Servants so they get slaughtered right off the bat to fuel the grail.
Not that the Einzberns were even capable of doing that much right.
Yes it was intended to have 1 family win the war in order to obtain the grail and reach the root.
Everything else is just a farce to get magi to participate and work as anchors for the souls of heroes to be summoned and used.
Would have been cool if Stray Servant of the Shield appeared in FSN in a spin-off or something.
I feel that Saber and Gilgamesh were boring in fights because they were too powerful. I was kinda hoping the servants in Fate/Zero would have been more powerful than FSN, so Gilgamesh had a league but it didn't happen.
man i was so upset when rider died, he was the coolest hands down. in my top 5 favs
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
Yes, exactly that. Saber, Archer and Lancer are the strongest classes and were intended to be used by the three head families that started the holy grail war. That being said, a servant of Gilgamesh's power is pretty rare and a strong servant in a different class, like Iskander, could potentially defeat the three knight classes.
Saber is shit.
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
That's exactly it. Saber, Archer, and Lancer are the three Knight classes that the Tohsaka, Einzbern, and Matou families try to claim first.
I think Rider is supposed to be a contingency plan incase someone else gets one.
>No, Alexander was one of the shittiest Servants stats-wise.
Servants stats have less to do with the servant and more to do with the Master. Waver was a shit master.
Just compare Saber under Shirou to Saber under Rin or Kiritsugu
Then why did the Einzberns intentionally summon Herakles as Berserker instead of as Archer or something? (which they could have done, by the way.)
Saber, Lancer, and Archer are the best all-around classes, but the other classes do have potential strengths if you have a very specific strategy.
How powerful would Lancelot be under Illya?
because the current einzberns forgot what the grail war was like when the original families made the rules
also BASAKA isn't a trap for a homonculous with assloads of mana, for someone like Kariya Matou it's a trap
Yeah, Assassin just stood in one place and endlessly kept Berserker at bay with some help from Caster but couldn't kill him any times because he's, you know, Assassin. Something along those lines.
Man, I wish Assassin got more love. He's pretty fucking cool.
Well, that's exactly my point. They had a perfectly good reason for not choosing one of the traditional "good" classes, which wouldn't've suited their strategy/situation in the 5th war.
>BASAKA isn't a trap for a homonculous with assloads of mana, for someone like Kariya Matou it's a trap
That's a great point, which also serves to back up the idea that the skill and inherent power of the magus can be more important than the stats of the servant or his class.
>I think Rider is supposed to be a contingency plan incase someone else gets one.
Is that information coming from somewhere, or are you just guessing that based on your belief that Rider isn't that much shittier as a class compared to the knight classes?
Ilya had the necessary amount of mana needed to supply a berserker.
Acht weighed the risks of losing potential NP's and having a mindless dog follow Ilya around, and figured it was worth it.
Think about if Herc had his own thoughts. If he found out the true nature of the grail, he wouldn't have let the ritual complete.
>If he found out the true nature of the grail, he wouldn't have let the ritual complete.
That sort of seems like a recurring problem in grail wars, when you have heroic spirits like Gilgamesh and
EMIYArunning around. So maybe summoning a mindless servant is actually the only way to give yourself a shot at a smooth victory that doesn't end in self-sabotage!
>Alexander was one of the shittiest Servants stats-wise.
What? He has perfectly serviceable stats.
>Is that information coming from somewhere, or are you just guessing that based on your belief that Rider isn't that much shittier as a class compared to the knight classes?
I read it somewhere and it kinda makes sense.
My belief that Rider is the best class is purely coincidence.
Lancelot was already pretty fucking strong with Kariya. Illya would mean no mana problem, but she probably won't be able to keep a leash on him once he goes wild. Lancelot also probably won't be protective of her like Herc did. Or maybe he will regain some knightly honor and do that.
>That's a great point, which also serves to back up the idea that the skill and inherent power of the magus can be more important than the stats of the servant or his class.
Which is again backed up by the previous Einzbern Master. He didn't even need a servant, really.
The classes aren't balanced but are much less important than the Heroic Spirit invoked and the skill/mana levels of the Master.
Top-tier Heroic Spirits with inherently high stats and powerful Noble Phantasms like Gilgamesh, Heracles and Arturia would (and have) largely excel regardless of the class they're summoned into, with potential exception of Berserker since it tends to limit Noble Phantasms. A pathetically weak Heroic Spirit like Angra Mainyu with dismal skills and weak Noble Phantasms would still be a major liability even with the bonuses of the Saber class.
The Master they are summoned to is also critical. A very powerful but mana-intensive servant like Gilgamesh would be severely limited by an incompatible, non-Magus master like Ryuunosuke for example. Berserker-class Servants are particularly difficult to control, especially powerful ones like Heracles who would be uncontrollable at best for all but the strongest magus and (in)directly suicidal at worst.
Three classes are purposely designed to be the only ones that can actually win because of the three families that invented it dog.
Except anyone who isn't an idiot could win with assassin if they played him as such.
Your list is full of holes. True Assassin killed Lancer, Fake Assassin could fight one on one with Saber with no problem, Caster+Kuzuki could beat Saber, Saber shouldn't be that high unless her master is Rin, Saber beat Gil fighting at full power, and Archer could beat him too.
Besides Lancer and Fake Assassin could survive against all Servants.
You can't establish powerlevels like this, only who would win against whom in a fight.
>yfw Lancer wins the war in 5 days
>Nasu Bullshit Tier
Arturia with Avalon
Cuchulainn with a Gae Bolg that actually works
Caster with setup time
Cuchulainn (restrained/with no mana due to Kirei)
Archer (simply due to tactics and silver bullets, less good at straightforward fighting)
>One Trick Pony
False Assassin (Hell of a trick though).
Caster with no setup
Then you'd have to create a Gilgamesh tier because he's still infinitely more bullshit than any of them
Ea is the unstoppable force and Avalon is the immovable object.
In the contest to kill everyone else, Ea is more useful.
Gilgamesh could win every War he's been in single handedly in a few hours if he gave a shit and had enough mana to spam Ea, he's just too much of a proud asshole to grant all those mongrels the dignity of dying by his trump card.
True Assassin killed Lancer in a 2v1 fight, he had help from the shadow. He can even be killed by Kirei, a non-servant character.
Fake Assassin can survive against most servants, but can win against none in a battle to the death. Even True Assassin killed him in HF
Caster+Kuzuki is not a servant, it's a team. Caster on her own and without prep is pretty weak.
Saber is, with or without Shirou, one of the top servants of the HGW. Bullshit magic resistance, unmatched swordsmanship skills, one-shots everyone but Gil (and maybe Berserker) with Excalibur, and manages to survive until the end in 2/3 routes of F/SN and in F/Z.
>strong enough to beat Gil, Herc or Arturia
Cu is strong, no doubt. But he's not broken like they are. Hell, even Archer would probably beat him. You Cufags need to stop wanking him so much. He fought Gil in Fate at full strength and still lost.
>Cuchulainn with a Gae Bolg that actually works
What? Gae Bolg works just fine, it's only not as great as fanwankers think it is. Blame E-rank luck.
Placing him above Berserker is ridiculous too. He can't even take half of his lives.
>Archer would probably beat him
Are you kidding? Cu wrecked Archer in UBW. Cu has a chance against Saber if she doesn't have Avalon. He definitely has no way to win against Gil or Herc.
>Ea is the unstoppable force and Avalon is the immovable object
Except not, Avalon acts more as an impenetrable boundary field. Whatever attacks it isn't stopped as much as it is conceptually impossible for the attack to enter the boundary field. Then the instant Gil finishes spinning he iis defenseless and Saber can cut him open
Assuming both are at full power and Gil isn't being an idiot, he pulls proto-Rho Aias/something that can tank Excalibur/something that screws with casuality like Fragarach/something that just seals Saber away in Avalon/something that lets her dodge/Ea, then Enuma Elish at full holy shit half the planet is gone power/some conceptual bullshit/who fucking even knows what nasu wanks gil so hard and stomps. It's just that the whims of the King do not bow to mongrel logic.
At this point you're just saying "Noble Phantasms are bullshit." Well, maybe they are, but some are more bullshit than others and that's the point here.
But anyway go play the novel, son.
In a fair fight where all the Servants are at the peak of their potential Archer gets wrecked.
Archer's generally won either by fighting weaker opponents or his opponents being gimped in his Grail War, and lost usually because he was gimped.
Arturia, Herc, Cu all straight out shit on him if everyone's peak. Medusa as well probably, and Gil if he doesn't dick around enough to the point where a regular human can shit on him.
>less good at straightforward fighting
Why do people believe this shit. The guy can hold his ground against melee monsters like unrestrained Lancer, Berserker and Saber. Shirou even defeated Saber Alter in a duel using his techniques.
The Grail War is not a balanced contest, its a ritual made by the three families along with Zelretch and a couple more others to create a hole large enough to send one of their mages to get in touch with the Root.
That's why the knight classes are broken compared to the other four, they were meant as filler containers.
I think the only way to win that is have Cu impress Gilgamesh enough to activate EA and then have Bazett fling herself in the way.
And a non-gimped Cu probably would get Gil's Pride boner stoked.
How long did he fight Gilgamesh while dying again?
If EMIYA actually was used as an Archer, he could wreck some people, but yeah, he'd lose to monsters like Arturia, Saber and Cu.
>Medusa as well probably
Now that's just bullshit. EMIYA can beat Medusa.
Shirou's strength depends entirely on how he develops.
In Fate he stayed weak and shitty throughout the entire route. He improved his swordsmanship a little under Saber's training I guess but he was still a no-talent magic user who couldn't even use his native abilities in any real capacity.
In UBW he progresses a lot farther with his magus training under Rin, his talks and fighting with Archer also helped him a lot too, so that by the end of that route he's aware of his affinity (swords) and is capable of using his tracing and projection, though still not perfectly.
In HF he gets Archer's arm and becomes incredibly broken.
Unlimited Blade Works is arguably on par with or even more effective than a full force Gate of Bablyon, but it's much less useful since it's Archer's trump card and he definitely can't just spam it at will like Gil can spam his.
Archer also lacks much else in terms of insane Noble Phantasms or excellent stats so he's still pretty far behind all around.
>Can hold his ground
That's all he CAN do.
He can basically fend them off while not making any progress and the moment he slips up he's dead.
>archer should be in great tier
Archer is great tier if you assume the fights take place in the context of the HGW, with all the variables this implies.
He's one of the smartest servants, if not the smartest, and can exploit contextual advantages and his oponent's weaknesses, but by power alone he's not that great. Put him in an empty space against one of the other servants, no prep, no masters, and he won't do that well.
>Still a loss
Do you have any idea what point you're trying to make anymore? No one's arguing he's the strongest Servant, the point is he's capable of some amazing things regardless.
the "Holy Grail War" is a sham to begin with, it's just an excuse to summon Heroic Spirits to fill the Grail so that they can be used to achieve the Third Magic - the Heaven's Feel ritual.
>Am I the only one who feels like Archer is bullshit as well?
he's the protagonist from the future who became an antihero character
that's like complaining why goku's powerlevel is over 9000
>get critically wounded afterwards.
Yeah, so wounded he managed to kill Caster and Kuzuki immediately after that, with a rain of Noble Phantasms, go melee on Saber dual wielding (when his arm was supposedly almost torn off), cast fucking UBW (with no master support) which is costly as fuck, swordspam Shirou and succesfully kidnap Rin.
Believe it or not, Archer does not have a good matchup against Lancer.
Archer can only put up a defensive fight if they were to fight in a melee and his bow will be ineffective because of Protection from Arrows; unless Archer is able to take up an advantageous position beforehand, well outside of Lancer's range.
Archer using his wits to survive both his encounters with Lancer is impressive, but he would have died in UBW had Lancer continued attacking after using his NP.
>if Cu just used melee Gae Bolg, Emiya would be screwed
They were fighting in an open space, getting out of range was perfectly possible for EMIYA. Not to mention Cu has to call Gae Bolg's name and put prana in it to use the curse version. It's not like he can do it in an instant, you know.
>That's the first thing he does against Saber.
Except it isn't? He used it because he was losing to Saber.
The only thing there that's impressive in terms of doing shit while seriously wounded is defending successfully against Saber. But even then, he immediately retreated anyway because he had no chance.
No, you're changing the goal post.
The conversation that started this was "Archer is shittier at Close Quarters than the Monster Servants"
He doesn't. He can hold his ground but then he either has to run away or get killed. He doesn't win these fights.
All the examples either end with him dead or retreating because he's GONNA be dead
Archer still fucking bitched out and ran away. If Archer was really on Cu's level he'd have been able to capitalize on that and kill him, but even a winded Lancer was strong enough to make him decide to run away because he knew he'd STILL lose.
>Lancer was out of steam after using his NP though.
UBW is the strongest in the longer term, mostly because he lives.
HF in the short, he can most likely kick UBW's ass because he has near servant level physical reactions plus Archer's inner world is stronger, so as long as he doesn't let UBW's Shirou chant he can win, but he'll die anyway.
I don't know if you're a filthy secondary or just baiting but I'll play anyways.
The Holy Grail War is a massive fuckup. It's just a shit system designed by a bunch of magi who were way out of their depth and it would have never worked, even if they hadn't contaminated it by doing stupid shit. A lot of the inconsistencies and rule breaking that you see isn't explained by "Oh Nasu sucks at writing" but rather "Gee a few idiots thought they could take a shortcut to the end goal of the entire Type Moon Universe (reaching the Root)."
Think of the Holy Grail War as an Early Access Game. It promises a ton of great features and rewards, takes in a ton of willing participants, and then suckers them into giving everything for this supposed end product. But the result is always disappointing, falls short of all expectations, and drains everyone involved.
And yet people still keep doing it.
I don't remember Lancer said he was exhaust, just very annoyed since Archer managed to block his strongest attack and then he decided to fuck off.
Even Archer admitted himself that he would lose if they continue fighting.
Bad masters that actively cause Servants to rank down in stats happen very rarely. Only three individuals are known to cause this: Shirou, Kiritsugu, and Shinji. Shinji's not a magus, so Medusa's ranked down in everything except luck. Kerry's a much better magus in his HGW than Shirou is by the 5th HGW, so he manages to supply quite a bit more prana along with Iri's support to Saber, but it's still not enough to manifest her full strength. Shirou is Shirou.
Kotomine fully supplies Lancer with prana, and we know this because Lancer has the same stats under Rin in Fate/Extra (with the exception of Endurance, which she buffed by swapping it with his Battle Continuation skill). He only partly supplies Gilgamesh with prana because Gil has the dying orphans to drink from, and Gil doesn't give a fuck about prana because of Independent Action A+.
If you compare Iskander and Medusa's stats (under Sakura), you'll find they're mostly equivalent. They can be considered the baseline for Riders, just with different stat focuses (Iskander is described as a tank while Medusa is described as a race car).
Kariya did supply the necessary amount of mana to give Lancelot full stats, that's why it killed him. It's why Berserkers kill pretty much every master short of Ilya who has virtually infinite prana to dump into Berserker. There's no safety valve on the prana they drain from their master, they're either topped off or the master's dead. Hence all the dead masters.
>3. Still a fucking loss because Arturia ain't dead.
Shirou missed the chance of finishing her off because he turned into a vegetable. Wouldn't have happened to Archer.
The point is he can do way more than holding his ground. For example, it's not like he only held his ground to simply buy time against Berserker, he went offensive and killed him a buch of thimes. And judging by the description of the wounds on Herc, there was a lot of melee involved. We know K&B's overedge was used too, probably to deliver one of the kills.
Well yeah, did you even play the VN? It's basically just a massacre of heroic spirits so that they fill the grail that's just covered up to look like some noble tournament. You wouldn't want that to end up in stalemate, you need those servants dead.
>Think of the Holy Grail War as an Early Access Game
>You will never see Iskandar reunited with Waver after he become the new Mellon.
So you're basing your argument on a fictional situation in which Archer is the one fighting Saber Alter and that the fight goes 100% the same.
The still means Archer needed fucking Medusa support to get Arturia down to that point where he could.
And Archer got 6 lives off a GIMPED Hercules and lost.
Almost only counts in Horseshoes
Archer is an average servant
He sits at the kids table along with the Casters, Assassins, Alexander and Robin Hood, while watching the real servants eat at the big boy table
>his bow will be ineffective because of Protection from Arrows
Protection against arrows doesn't mean inmunity.
"as long as the shooter is within his line of sight, he can track down ranged weapons with his eyes and defend against them"
"does not apply for attacks made from super-long-range or with a great area-of -effect"
Basically, Caladbolg and other explosive Broken Phantasms can kill him, and normal arrows can hit if Archer is out of his sight or sniping him from a very long distance.
>Archer is an average servant
Not him, but that's not true at all. Archer looks like an average servant stats-wise, but his NP puts him in the "great" tier, in my opinion. You just have to play him right.
Get used to it. This is just the beginning.
Rho Aias is explicitly Archer's greatest projection. Using it means he was forced to pull out his finest work as the Wrought Iron Hero, the pinnacle of his tracing ability. UBW is not some secret super mode, it has limited applications because all it actually does is reduce the cost in prana of tracing things and allow him to trace much faster since he no longer has to project anything, it's instantly created in his hand. That's not as much of a buff as you might think, especially since it takes such a long time to activate it.
The fact that he can keep up with Dark Saber, whose stat superior in every to Saber except LUK and NP?
Not him though. And I still think that Saber Alter actually hold back a bit in that fight.
>OK there will only be Seven Masters and Seven Servants
>Except when there aren't. (Bazett, Kotomine, Gilgamesh)
>Each Master will only have one Servant.
>Except when they don't. (Kotomine, Medea, the Edelfelts)
>Only certain Heroic Spirits can be summoned as Servants.
>Except when they aren't. (Avenger, EMIYA, Assassin)
The Holy Grail War has more bugs than an Alpha Test. It is a testament to how desperate the people involved were not to admit that they fucked up that it actually happened 5 times.
HF Shirou without his arm is the weakest, and his arm is crazy impractical.
I mean shit, he didn't get /anything/ outside of the arm. I don't even think he unlocked his circuits properly, which at least Fate Shirou did.
>And Archer got 6 lives off a GIMPED Hercules and lost.
He didn't use UBW and didn't target Illya like any other servant would do, and was fighting him in a very confined space, mostly hand to hand. Killing him even once in that kind of circumstances is a very impressive feat, for any servant not named Gil.
Really nigger? It's the sole reason he could take on Alter. How the hell do you think he took her on?
>Rho Aias is explicitly Archer's greatest projection.
What? Did you mean protection?
Rho Aias is a pretty good shield and all, especially against projectile attacks, but I don't recall it ever being referred to as Archer's greatest projection. Unless this is something mentioned in F/HA.
Funnily enough, that situation comes up in F/HA. Lancer very easily deflects all the arrows Archer fires at him even from well outside the range of Protection Against Arrows' effect. Just like Saber does, who also does not have that skill.
Even at a long range it's by no means a guaranteed victory against Lancer or Saber. They are quite capable of closing the gap if they want to, the question is how much Archer can make them work for it and waste precious energy reaching him. If he can weaken them enough by the time they reach him, he can finish them off in melee. Otherwise, he's hosed.
Servants are implanted with the knowledge of the identity of enemy Servants when they are summoned.
Other Servants like Alexander and the Hassans can discern a Servant's identity through inner knowledge or as an ability. Alexander knew who everyone was except for Berserker, because he had FSG turned on.
UBW is not much against Berserker, but the swordspamming could kill Illya at any moment, forcing him to slow down/retreat, giving Archer some more time to shoot BPs at him. But that's just as implausible as seeing Gil take Shirou seriousle, since Archer would never hurt Illya.
Alter also lowered her physical stats to Shirou's level, because she wanted it to be a fair fight of raw skill rather than simply overpowering Shirou with her raw attack power like she did with Archer, who she completely wrecked when he tried to fight her.
Saber gets shafted in that area since she's not on the throne
She knew Cu because his legend was famous and she just happened to know it but others are outside her area of knowledge like Gilles
[citation motherfucking needed]
Why are people saying that HF Shirou wasn't at servant tier anyway? In fucking Fate, he defends himself pretty well against Rider despite being a lowly human. It's not hard to believe that Archer's arm pushes him over the limit.
>Alter also lowered her physical stats to Shirou's level, because she wanted it to be a fair fight of raw skill rather than simply overpowering Shirou with her raw attack power like she did with Archer, who she completely wrecked when he tried to fight her.
Still ridiculously limited in his potential. UBW Shirou has all the tools to be fucking crazy. He unlocked his RM 10 years before Archer, saw everything in it, and saw swaths of things in GoB. Plus he has Rin guiding him.
I would love to fucking see the 10 year time skip when he's with her and Waver taking out the grail.
>Alter also lowered her physical stats
You worded that terribly.
Saber Alter did lower herself to Shirou's level so it would be a match of skill, but saying that she changed her stats isn't incorrect at all.
He's sort of correct, but that's a bad way of putting it. Heroic Spirits have an instinctual knowledge of all the other Heroic Spirits because they share an existence in the Throne of Heroes together. That's why heroes from ages long past can recognize somewhat modern heroes. However, Counter Guardians are the only ones exempt from this rule, as their identities remain unknown even to each other. That's why Lancer is so pissed off and furious about not being able to figure out who Archer actually is - Archer's basically a cheating motherfucker on top of using a weird fighting style and myriad NPs that break and shatter constantly before pulling new ones out of his ass.
>You bet your ass he projected Excalibur and Caliburn at one point.
Incredibly unlikely. Trying to project something like that is a very inefficient use of complete prana when he can trace something like Caladbolg and turn it into a BP instead.
>one can only kill him with A-rank Noble Phantasms or higher.
He can die from any A-rank attack, not only NPs. That's why Rin was able to kill him once. with only her jewels.
>You bet your ass he projected Excalibur and Caliburn at one point.
He can't trace Excalibur, he can only make an imperfect version like Shirou did in HF normal end, and even that would be most likely a suicidal attack for him.
As for Caliburn, even assuming he can use it, it would have killed him a crapton of times like it did when Shirou/Saber used it.
>Loses to Medusa
>High Tier Servant
He's basically king of the Manlet power level servants before all the big boys show up
Alexander needs a meatdoll like Ilya to be effective.
With her prana stocks everyone worth noting in his army would have their NPs materialized.
However his army is still vulnerable to Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress and Anti-World NPs which means a good portion of them will die before accomplishing anything.
>It's a difference in raw power that Archer could not overcome.
With K&B, of course. But maybe he can compensate that difference by projecting something thart raises his STR stat, much like K&B increase his END and magic resistance.
i like you
EMIYA is UU but could be use in OU the team if you are good enough
Lancer is top OU, ez to use like Talonbro
Rider is OU with Sakura
Berserker is OU, but Uber if any other class.
Caster is NU
Fake Assassin is RU
True Assassin is probably UU
Gil is Kyogre
Powerlevel discussions are meanignless.
The only factor that is important to determine how powerful a Servant is is "Relationship with the MC".
As long as he is the MC's ally, even the shittiest Servant will suddenly be all powerful and already broken fags like Gil will get even more broken.
someone throw on the red guy Lightning spear.
In the first game it was a really shitty miracle who could work only on people who doesn't move.
This time it's moving like a gae bolg
He certainly wasn't trying to get himself sent flying. In a straight fight like that situation, where he has to fight directly and cannot abuse trickery and tactics to stack the odds in his favor, Archer would not win, that much is certain. If it came down to skill vs. skill, though, like in Sparks Liner High, he would have a chance to defeat her using Crane Wing Three Realm, just like Shirou does.
How come goku is so unbalanced? Vegeta is always a step behind of goku, Gohan is supposed to be stronger when angry and still doesn't kill the bad guy, kuririn and tenshin-han are thrash tier because toryama nerfed humans. Meanwhile Goku is literally God tier (he reached God sayan so that makes him literally God tier hehe get it). The only one that comes close is Mr. Satan since he defeated Majin Boo.
No such weapons have been shown to exist, and it is unlikely that any weapon that does such a thing would put him on par with Saber Alter, considering it's a 3 rank difference in STR. It also means he's not using his true personal fighting style, and Archer hates that.
This is true, Sir Gawain can beat any Servant no sun, no sweat, just like that.
In fact, no one has stepped up to the plate to challenge Sir Gawain and win.
Type-ORT could do it alone.
Primate Murder would fail if he tries alone. I mean, he had an advantage because of the primates things but I think 9 Servants could deal with him, considering 7 CGs are enough to defeat him.
That makes no sense.
Nobody is trying to argue that a heroic spirit could beat Primate Murder, so why the fuck would it matter? The discussions are about who is stronger at a lower level.
No, he definitely said "protection".
>"I'm just an archer. Your analysis was not incorrect."
>"Bullshit. An archer would not have a shield to block a Noble Phantasm."
>"I guess you can, under the right circumstances.
>But this is the result. I used up most of my magical energy, one of my arms is destroyed, and Aius is shattered.
>…Man, that was the greatest protection I had."
Rider wasn't ordered to kill Shirou until near the end (she thought Shinji wanted Shirou alive). In UBW she was trying to force Shirou to use the command seal to call Saber so she could cut off the arm and take the command seal for Shinji.
>>Funnily enough, that situation comes up in F/HA. Lancer very easily deflects all the arrows Archer fires at him even from well outside the range of Protection Against Arrows' effect. Just like Saber does, who also does not have that skill.
It's noted Archer raining down arrows kept Lancer from returning home even if he was quick enough to avoid it most of the time, which is why he had to camp out. It's also noted that Archer never aimed to kill anyone he fired upon, except for Avenger. He just gave them warning shots.
In Saber's case, she has Spider sense that kicks in ever if protection of arrows does not at worst.
Assuming best potential Masters (Saber + Rin, Rider + Sakura)
Saber > Archer
Saber >= Lancer
Saber > Fake Assassin
Saber < Berserker
Saber > Rider
Saber > Caster
Archer < Lancer
Archer > Fake Assassin
Archer < Berserker
Archer >= Rider
Archer > Caster
Lancer >= Fake Assassin
Lancer < Berserker
Lancer > Rider
Lancer > Caster
Fake Assassin < Berserker
Fake Assassin < Rider
Fake Assassin < Caster
Berserker > Rider
Berserker > Caster
Gil > Everyone
There we go, now shut the fuck up.
It's noted to be Lancer's style entirely, which Shirou tries to say isn't normal in this day and age anymore.
In UBW they talk about how he's the type who could try to kill you one minute, then you go out for drinks, and then you're killing each other again later.
so, why does Type Moon hate Ilya-fags so much?
even if they didn't give her a route, did they have to throw this in to kick you while you're down?
>there are people that think Kara no Kyoukai is better than Fate, Tsukihime, and Mahoyo
>there are people that think Kara no Kyoukai is better than anything in TYPE-MOON
Why doesn't someone smart just contract all the servants so they're guaranteed to win? Kirei and Edelfelts prove multiple contracts are possible. If it normally isn't possible, summon Medea then after each summon use rule breaker to contract the new guy
Sanda: So do they have basic Skills and Noble Phantasm as Servants?
Nasu: No, since they were summoned via Rider's skill, it was not necessary to assign them Class based on the rules of the Holy Grail War. However, since there is a limit to Rider's abilities, their Noble Phantasms could not be materialized. If Iskander's army of tens of thousands could pair up with Gilgamesh, who had unlimited Noble Phantasms, the result would be most ideal.
If Rule breaker doesn't work have Medea summon assassin, then have Medea supply Assassin with enough mana to summon someone else, then go down the line until you have every servant!
Saber under Rin can beat Berserker. Her stats are stupid under Rin.
Saber with Rin as master has:
Her Magical Energy Burst also becomes A.
Except it was the case. Restored Saber completely overwhelmed Archer in melee, UBW Archer could only trace a knock off version of Excalibur that he doesn't have enough mana to use without completely draining him.
Saber Alter in numbers and all around power comes out better than Rin's Saber.
People don't think so for some reason, but it is more dangerous than normal Saber by far. They say "It lost a rank here", but in numbers, it's still ahead and infinite mana blasts.
Also the idea that Rin's Saber is Saber at her peak in life, such a thing wasn't ever really stated either.
It's specifically stated that while Shirou is getting wounded, he is managing to stop the blows from being fatal and of course, his body is made of SWORDS. It's pretty impressive man. That vast majority of people would have just been wrecked.
Archer>=Gil (he's not taking a faker seriously, ever).
Saber>=Archer (if masters or civilians are in play, Archer could be a dick and target them with BPs/swordspamming, forcing Saber to tank the hits)
Breaking a contract and making one with 7 Servants are completely different things.
You would need to suck dry of their magical power the population of 4 Fuyuki Cities in order to do that or some bullshit like that.
Saber vs Archer
Nasu-san CHECK! (no need to take into considering the editor ones so)
The class of the representatives of close-range and long-range combat. Saber, who would take her sword in any condition whatsoever and Archer who would fight using a strategy of victory. The highlight won't just be the different battle styles, but the difference between their personalities.
However, even with UBW, it's questionable whether he could hold Saber back in single combat. One definite hit from sniping and one absolute blast of death from her Holy Sword. It might really depend on the wit of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand.
He doesn't quite say that, and Shirou doesn't really know what her real potential or power is at all, he's never witnessed it from the start. People make a lot of assumptions on that line, but in the end all he's saying is "Her power is incomparable to before".
Sense was mentioned to give the same effect as protection for arrows in HF wasn't it? That skill is too fucking broken...
With top tier masters on both sides Saber vs Archer can still go either ways, especially if Emiya does the same shit he pulls on Shirou/Avenger and Hruntings the Master before Saber kills him (since no shield NP to save them from eating homing arrow nukes).
Not that guy, but Saber clearly mentions things might have gone different had Archer not been masterless and low on prana at that moment. It was literally a reversal from the same situation merely seconds prior except Archer still had just about enough bullshit in reserve to go for last attempt at winning.
>Archer>=Gil (he's not taking a faker seriously, ever).
You're retarded. He doesn't take Shirou seriously because he's a fucking ginger highschooler. Archer being a Heroic Spirit is an immediate step up, he isn't going to act like a dumbass against Archer.
I don't quite remember that scene. I haven't read HF in a while, but I have just reread UBW so I'm fine tuned there.
Rin!Saber pretty much matches Berserker in all aspects except endurance. Plus, if Caliburn could take off 10 lives, then Excalibur will definitely take off more.
>One definite hit from sniping
What? Archer can one-shot Saber? Bullshit.
>It might really depend on the wit of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand
Is he implying that if Saber has Shirou she loses? WTF
Gil would not take EMIYA seriously enough to use Ea right off the bat which is what he needs to win. Thus, it is possible for EMIYA to outwit Gil like Shirou did.
>Trying to assign absolute sort of values about who's stronger or weaker, in a series where literally anyone can win based on situation and power level never matters. A series where the underdog almost always wins.
>at the end of the day he is still a Heroic Spirit
Implying Gil cares about that shit.
He didn't even take Herc seriously until the end, and he's one of the greatest heroic spirits that have ever existed.
And he wasn't taking Shirou that lightly either, he even pulled Ea on him before getting inside UBW.
Berserker was confident that Excalibur could not kill him even with six lives left after Archer took six.
A weakened excaliblast took two of his lives. It is unclear how much more damage a full one could possibly do, but if Herakles was confident that it would not take all of his lives with six lives left, it probably would not.
That being said, Caliburn is some bullshit, man.
He doesn't need to use Ea right off the bat. Once Archer proves that he is capable of fighting, he'd understand that he isn't dealing with someone capable of threatening him. He wouldn't go full retard like he did with Shirou.
And this isn't even adding the fact that Gil would have his armor on when he fights Archer. Gil defended against Saber's attacks simply by deflecting them with his armor during the first fight scene in Fate.
If we are talking delusional, you're the delusional Archerfag.
I thought the worst was the 1st, but only because it doesn't make much sense as a story when watched without knowledge of KNK (which is what happens to most people, seeing how it's the 1st movie).
It's better on re-watch, but I wasn't sure what I was supposed to understand about the characters from the 1st movie alone.
Sorry, that was ambiguous wording on my part. What I meant was that Gil wouldn't instantly use Ea on Archer and Ea is the tool Gil needs to use to beat him since Archer can counter GoB. This means that there is an amount of time where Gil is not very serious which means that Archer has a shot of winning. Obviously, that window of time is shorter than it would have been for Shirou, but Archer doesn't need nearly as much of an opening to win either.
It's not even that.
The only way to get a less painful experience in the suffering train is by sitting near Shirou. and even so you will fucking suffer anyway, but at least you will make it to the end with a bit of luck.
An enemy can survive without wining.
The only ones who come to my mind are Kotomine and Zouken dying in sort of peace with themselves and Shinji surviving UBW.
Heracles was being absorbed by the black mud at the same time that he fought Saber Alter. The mud essentially locked him down and made it so that he had to tear his own flesh off and his muscles apart to move (and even then, the mere act of moving while covered in the mud was considered a clear impossibility as no other Heroic Spirit was able to do so), while Saber Alter could move freely. It was an awful, terrible situation. Without the mud's interference? Berserker would have fought Saber Alter to the bitter end to protect Ilya, and he probably would have won using his sheer willpower and impossible strength (and the twelve lives thing).
>An enemy can survive without wining.
No, not really. The HGW is a fight to the death. No one is just going to bow out and retire to a farm. Servants literally only exist to get the Grail or die trying.
He was still a stronger hero than Archer, and his fighting style was not as disgusting to Gil as EMIYA's is.
Gil would NEVER bless a faker with the sight of hist most precious treassures. Archer as well as Shirou is literally a living insult to all what he possesses, the shittiest mongrel among all mongrels. Having to use all his power to beat him would be the ultimate humilliation for him.
Being retarded is what balances Gil out.
He could shit on everything with Ea, but he ALWAYS has a reason for not immediately using Ea and waiting until he's fucked to try to use it.
And most people are unwilling to do that because they want to win. If someone was willing to back out peacefully, they could coexist with Shirou and co. But again, by the requirements of an actual route ending, anyone who is still active and hostile is going to be dealt with at some point, or else it's a bad end. It's like quantum immortality.
>How come all berserkers are wasted potential under this class?
Because it's a shit class. Einzberns were actually using it in the one way it could be useful: by using the removal of sanity as a way to curb a potentially rebellious servant.
Only the knight classes are worth anything stat/ability-wise.
Not quite the same. By the time of his fight with Shirou he had about 10% of his power and his one use of UBW literally shattered from Shirou countering his swordrain the day before. Projections can be dirt cheap though, especially if you skip most of the steps and make a bunch of swords as if they were just one (what Shirou did when he stopped the UBW swordrain.) Shirou himself can make more than a dozen projections on his own despite his MGI being crap compared to his future self so it's not like they are that expensive to begin with.
Berserker is the class you use when you want a marginally stronger servant in terms of natural stats in exchange for higher mana cost not having to worry about them disagreeing with you.
Berserker is usually used by people who are shitty mages to balance out the fact that they're shitty mages. They do it for the stat boost.
The Einzberns have Ilya do it with Hercules partially because they wanted to tie her hands and partially because they are retarded and make can't help but make crippling mistakes.
I thought it was because they didn't want a rehash of Kerrytugu?
>hiring top-class magus killer to summon a broken servant to win the war to you
>magus killer turns out to be a delusional manchild with silly ideals
I guess I can understand why they got paranoid. That's lancer-tier luck right there.
Rin - 20 times the amount of Prana of the mature magus, 500. A maximum of 1000 points can be released or stored at once with her circuits.
Saber - under Shirou, has 1200 to 1300.
Sakura - under normal and ideal conditions, should have the same amount as Rin. However, that energy is constantly being eaten by her worms.
Sakura, when connected to Angra Mainyu, has access to over 1,000,000,000,000. But with the number of circuits, only 1000 can be released at any one time. Furthermore, the amount of power she has is said to be similar to the level of Counter-Guardians (when incarnated in their normal role). Each of her shadows has 1000.
Ciel - 100 times the amount of the average magus, 4000. On the other hand, she doesn't use Roa's old knowledge for spells. If readjusted to matured magus in Fate, then 2500 or a less if mature magus (1st-rate magus) > average magus (kind of strange that she would have twice to four times the amount of a part-dragon). Only sure thing is that she has much more than Rin. At least Servant-level Prana load anyway.
Rider's Pegasus - 100 times the amount of Prana of the average magus, 4000 or 2500.
Shirou (UBW) - 20-30.
Next, if we assume that 1200 to 1300 is a general indicator of amount available or at least current full capacity (not a very good indicator, imo)
Black Saber (A++) - approx 4500.
Rin Saber - approx 1500.
Lancer - approx 900.
Archer - approx 1200.
Rider - approx 1200.
Caster - approx 3000 (but, like Rin, also has access to external Prana/sources).
Assassin - approx 300. (LOW for a Servant)
Berserker - approx 1500.
Gilgamesh - approx 1200.
True Assassin - approx 1200.
Cost of using Excalibur is estimated at 700-800.
One light bolt from Caster - 70-200.
Rain of light from Caster - 700-2000.
Tracing cost - 5.
Reinforcement cost - 2.
Shirou UBW (initial) expansion cost - No more than 270.
(Stabbing) Gae Bolg - Can be used 7 times without refueling. Which would make each use no more than around 120.
That has more to do with conceptual backing than stats. Were Excalibur a thrown laser spear instead it would never break the Aius.
That said, even a top-tier shield like it isn't gonna stand against an anti-fortress NP unless it suddenly gains a "protection from sword strikes" concept or something similar.
Gil didn't die because he got drank the grail mud and he's so OP that it doesn't affect him.
Kerry was a dead man as soon as he got the grail cancer. It was just a matter of time.
>Gil didn't die because he got drank the grail mud and he's so OP that it doesn't affect him.
Gil didn't die because he drank the grail mud and he's so OP that it didn't affect him.*
We all die though, it is a matter of time for everyone. I say an adult living 5 years after the war (and not being crippled in any physical way) is enough to be called surviving the war.
So how did the Caliburn fuckery in Fate work again?
It's been years and I still don't understand how the hell Caliburn took so many lives off Berserker, yet it didn't drain as much mana as an Excaliblast.
Excalibur should be more expensive seeing as Archer can't fully use it (or NPs on it's tier at all) and I remember hearing stab Gae Bolg was something around double digits in cost. Rin Saber should also be a bit higher since she can use 2 Excaliblasts without the fear of fading away.
What about the new hotness
It's ability at the moment seems to trigger any time a weather effect comes into play, it takes that weather and throws it the fuck away, and then activates a new weather effect that negates all of it's weaknesses in battle, or the weakness of any flying type summoned.
But Kiritsugu doesn't believe in utilitarianism, he just practice a form of it because it was the only realistic way for him he knows of to get anywhere.When he realized how such methods won't change the world, he chased for the Holy Grail to try to create such world without need for such sacrifice.
Even Kotomine knew that:
"You do not need to understand. Emiya Kiritsugu desired peace. Isn't it simple? But it was too simple for this complex world. He had to reject the extra parts that could not fit into that perfect shape."
"But he could not tolerate that.
He sought a perfect shape, but still wanted to save the extra parts.
…But that is a miracle exceeding human power.
There is no such thing as a world without conflict. He sought the Holy Grail to deny that fact."
But when he found out the grail was corrupted and limited and malicious it is, he rejected it.
Archer sits down with Kerry and talks to him about ideals for a few hours, Kerry sees the error of his ways and blows up the Great Grail immediately rather than trying to use the ritual to get his wish granted. Archer spends the two days he has thanks to Independent Action to destroy the Einzbern castle in Germany, rescuing Ilya and Irisviel and delivering them to Kerry before he fades away with a smile.
Except that's not how it works, or Archer would have just let other people kill Shirou. He had to be the one to kill Shirou himself, and even then he knew that it is almost impossible for it to work, and he was more fighting Shirou to take out his rage on him.
Why is Takeuchi still working when Koyama is clearly the better artist?
>Kiritsugu doesn't believe in utilitarianism, he just practice a form of it because it was the only realistic way for him he knows of to get anywhere
In what sense is that not believing in utilitarianism? If he thinks it's the best way to save people, then he believes in it. Unless you're using some weird-ass definition of "believe in".
see: Kotomine's quote.
He doesn't think it is best way to save people, but from his experience with Shirley, he knew you also can't just do nothing. His methods were they only thing he could do under his limited power.
What if Kerry summoned Buhdda, and he's just sitting there being neutral as fuck and occasionally dishing out small wisdoms about life.
It's not clear if Enkidu is actually Gil's equal in fighting power, only that he's quite experienced with Gil's methods and knows how best to deal with him since he was the first one who made Gil resort to sword spam back when they were alive.
Nothing says he would be a shitty servant in a way, guy still roughed it in the wilderness by himself, and would have a secondary NP for sure to mislead about his main one.
As an ancient spirit, he would have decent stats.
The way the Mark works, it'd be more likely that it hits anybody who attacks him with 7x the attack, not just activating on death.
Fighting him would be entirely about tactics. You couldn't just charge in swinging with Gate of Babylon, Excalibur, or whatever NP/Servant you're using.
He is in the sense that he is the perfect counter. He and Gil fought back in the day, and they came to a draw (Gil emptied his treasury, Enkidu used up 90% of his clay).
He was his equal in fighting power, he broke him down to a standstill in life not because he understood his methods, but because he was powerful.
He has the power to become all weapons in creation with his body, to match GoB perfectly.
Not really more than you think. He went through most of his collector phase with Enkidu in life, then went crazy for some years only to come back and rule near the end.
It would be a fools assumption to say that now Gil is much stronger, as you'd be denying the legend itself and you know when they fight in Strange it will be a standstill that will end in gay sex. You know when they fight, it one be Gilgamesh completely dominating because "So much more treasure", it's going to be equal, they won't even think about that, because those two being equals is one of the most iconic parts of the legend.
His legs were held down by the Shadow, forcing him to endure a full on hit.
GG, contending with D-rank against A+.
And he still comes back none the worse for wear in time to save Rin.
She gets a powerup from being the cutest
More of a legend = buff
Takeguichi's favorite = Once and future king greatest of all phantasms Last phantasm and greatest servant of all time super best, super cutest, super most beautiful, all other characters must talk about how they only pale in comparison to someone as great as that, she always should win.
Depends on which Shirou, we see a lot of them. HF and UBW alone has two different types of delusion. Shinji is below the current list for sure, he thinks he's cool but deep down he knows he isn't that good.
Arthur qualified as having been from the Age of the Gods. Saber's magic resistance is directly related to that and why she shits on Caster for thinking her silly spells would do shit when she had to deal with both Morgan and fucking Merlin on a semi-daily basis.
a servant's power is in relationship to his legends. Heracle and Gilgamesh were demi-gods. Arthur was chosen by god (through the sword).
Although Lancelot is just fucking crazy.
Lancelot had the same blessing as Arthur, if not more since he was even more connected to the source that gave Arthur her powers, and his sword was just as powerful as hers originally.
He was the strongest in that era, anyone that's read the tale knows that Lancelot kicks the crap out of Arthur in a real fight, so anything less than that would be foolish.
He was the strongest knight aside from Galahad, Arthur in legend was not known for being the strongest, but rather being the leader. The leader doesn't have to be the most powerful everything super special, they just need to be the one that can keep these people from killing each other on a daily basis and work together.
Also, Avalon Saber used Excalibur 4 times.
>Also, Avalon Saber used Excalibur 4 times.
At some point it became DBZ, despite how using even a single blast could have killed her earlier
All that semen she ingested previously gave her a huge boost.
He really is the biggest fucking Stu in the entirety of Arthurian legend.
I kind of want to see what Bedivere would be like as a servant. He'd probably be wholly mediocre compared to his other Round Table brethren but that's exactly why I'm curious as to how his stats and abilities would be laid out. His claim to fame was basically being Arthur's most loyal right hand man and just being that damn good without any particularly special qualities.
Extra Shinji is so fucking based.
Why must we put up with this piece of shit in regular canon?
He didn't endure a full hit, he was shoulder charged basically, with her sword swing knocking him back. The force was enough to knock him away.
He got stabbed once by the Shadow and was pretty much done for, the Shadow exploding itself finished off everyone, and even if Rin was shielded, she was out along with Shirou. If Rider hadn't have been sent by Sakura and used the last bit of Sakura's energy, they'd have died since it was a three hour trek back to town.
Strongest servants at present, not counting Alter Ego's or BB which can go beyond any one servant
Buhdda > Gilgamesh = Enkidu > Hercules = Karna > Achilles > Arthur > Cu > etc
Lets call this list a maybe
>He got stabbed once by the Shadow and was pretty much done for
Shadow holds an almighty affinity against servants, if it can strike them once directly then it's over. It's not an issue of power against that thing, rather it's just death for them.