How come all the servants aren't balanced with each others'

>>114950024
>How come all the servants aren't balanced with each others' abilities in respect? Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?

I don't know if you are fishing or if I should applaud you.The powers of the servants depend on the class, on the master, and on other factors. Also you can't only compare their battle strength, each servant has also unique skills that only depends on their class, Independent Action for Archers for example which makes them some of the shittiest servants for a master, for example.

>more Naruto-tier power level wars
>TMfags not cancerous

Read the VN.

>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?

It's not a tournament to prove your skills. The ritual is meant to have one of magi to get to the Root.

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The Holy Grail war needs a balance patch.

>>114950024
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
Yes, the Archer, Lancer and Saber classes are better. Pretty sure this was directly stated.

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>>114950889
I always felt like Caster was never utilized to the fullest potential really, like isn't she capable of Magecraft from the Age of Gods that can do astounding things that far outclass modern magecraft? High-speed casting and huge city-sized spells and the like?

>>114951704
Her creating R´lyeh was one of the few things I liked about the DEEN anime.
It showed how fucking powerful she is.

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>Kirei's voice during the chinese restaurant scene
It was a different kind of boner from the ones his voice usually gives me.

>>114950024
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
No, the three founding families basically rigged it to give themselves every advantage possible so that they could be the ones to reach the root. The idea was to lure in a bunch of dirt secondaries with the promise of a wish if they won, then stick them with shitty Servants so they get slaughtered right off the bat to fuel the grail.

Not that the Einzberns were even capable of doing that much right.

>>114950024
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
how fucking dense are you

it's obviously rigged from its birth

Spin-off with Caster's first Master when?

>>114951704
I like to assume off-screen that Illya and Berserker decided to take on Caster's temple and was greeted with ancient god magic.

>>114950024
Yes it was intended to have 1 family win the war in order to obtain the grail and reach the root.
Everything else is just a farce to get magi to participate and work as anchors for the souls of heroes to be summoned and used.

>>114950024
>any kind of war
>fair fight

You must have a pretty nice life

>>114950024
With a few exceptions, only the Einzbern/Tohsaka magi outclass everyone else with their potent bloodlines and innate talent. Most of the magi only have one or the other.

>>114950024
Pretty sure Archer-Emiya and Rider-Alexander are both high tier.

Saber, Lancer, and Archer are the real classes, everything else is a trap

>>114954121
No, Alexander was one of the shittiest Servants stats-wise.
His NP was pretty much everything he had going for him.

>>114950024

>implying Rider's loss wasn't a fluke

Would have been cool if Stray Servant of the Shield appeared in FSN in a spin-off or something.

I feel that Saber and Gilgamesh were boring in fights because they were too powerful. I was kinda hoping the servants in Fate/Zero would have been more powerful than FSN, so Gilgamesh had a league but it didn't happen.

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man i was so upset when rider died, he was the coolest hands down. in my top 5 favs

>>114950024
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
Yes, exactly that. Saber, Archer and Lancer are the strongest classes and were intended to be used by the three head families that started the holy grail war. That being said, a servant of Gilgamesh's power is pretty rare and a strong servant in a different class, like Iskander, could potentially defeat the three knight classes.

Saber is shit.

>>114950024
>Did the makers of the Holy Grail system intend for it to not be a fair fight anyway?
That's exactly it. Saber, Archer, and Lancer are the three Knight classes that the Tohsaka, Einzbern, and Matou families try to claim first.

I think Rider is supposed to be a contingency plan incase someone else gets one.

>>114954187
>No, Alexander was one of the shittiest Servants stats-wise.
Servants stats have less to do with the servant and more to do with the Master. Waver was a shit master.

Just compare Saber under Shirou to Saber under Rin or Kiritsugu

>>114953708
Wasn't it stated in canon somewhere Berserker tried to invade but got stalemated by Assassin + Caster?

>>114954179
Then why did the Einzberns intentionally summon Herakles as Berserker instead of as Archer or something? (which they could have done, by the way.)

Saber, Lancer, and Archer are the best all-around classes, but the other classes do have potential strengths if you have a very specific strategy.

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>>114954512
How powerful would Lancelot be under Illya?

>>114954614

So he would actually follow Ilya around

Ind. Action + Divinity + Heracles not giving a fuck would be a nightmare to control

>>114954614
because the current einzberns forgot what the grail war was like when the original families made the rules

also BASAKA isn't a trap for a homonculous with assloads of mana, for someone like Kariya Matou it's a trap

>>114954609
Yeah, Assassin just stood in one place and endlessly kept Berserker at bay with some help from Caster but couldn't kill him any times because he's, you know, Assassin. Something along those lines.

Man, I wish Assassin got more love. He's pretty fucking cool.

I actually like powerlevel threads

come suck my ass

>>114954714
Well, that's exactly my point. They had a perfectly good reason for not choosing one of the traditional "good" classes, which wouldn't've suited their strategy/situation in the 5th war.

>>114954728
>BASAKA isn't a trap for a homonculous with assloads of mana, for someone like Kariya Matou it's a trap
That's a great point, which also serves to back up the idea that the skill and inherent power of the magus can be more important than the stats of the servant or his class.

>>114954483
>I think Rider is supposed to be a contingency plan incase someone else gets one.
Is that information coming from somewhere, or are you just guessing that based on your belief that Rider isn't that much shittier as a class compared to the knight classes?

>>114954614
Ilya had the necessary amount of mana needed to supply a berserker.

Acht weighed the risks of losing potential NP's and having a mindless dog follow Ilya around, and figured it was worth it.

Think about if Herc had his own thoughts. If he found out the true nature of the grail, he wouldn't have let the ritual complete.

>>114954617
>4617▶
>File: LxHj7.jpg (212 KB, 1280x1620)
>>>114954512
>How powerful would Lancelot be under Illya?
Instant win.
The world would explode

>>114954925
>If he found out the true nature of the grail, he wouldn't have let the ritual complete.
That sort of seems like a recurring problem in grail wars, when you have heroic spirits like Gilgamesh and EMIYA running around. So maybe summoning a mindless servant is actually the only way to give yourself a shot at a smooth victory that doesn't end in self-sabotage!

>>114954770
>assassin manages to push back basaka
fucking based

>>114954614
Einzbern decision making skills strike again.

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>>114954187
>Alexander was one of the shittiest Servants stats-wise.
What? He has perfectly serviceable stats.

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>>114954896
>Is that information coming from somewhere, or are you just guessing that based on your belief that Rider isn't that much shittier as a class compared to the knight classes?
I read it somewhere and it kinda makes sense.

My belief that Rider is the best class is purely coincidence.

>>114954617
Lancelot was already pretty fucking strong with Kariya. Illya would mean no mana problem, but she probably won't be able to keep a leash on him once he goes wild. Lancelot also probably won't be protective of her like Herc did. Or maybe he will regain some knightly honor and do that.

>>114954896
>That's a great point, which also serves to back up the idea that the skill and inherent power of the magus can be more important than the stats of the servant or his class.
Which is again backed up by the previous Einzbern Master. He didn't even need a servant, really.

>>114950024
The classes aren't balanced but are much less important than the Heroic Spirit invoked and the skill/mana levels of the Master.
Top-tier Heroic Spirits with inherently high stats and powerful Noble Phantasms like Gilgamesh, Heracles and Arturia would (and have) largely excel regardless of the class they're summoned into, with potential exception of Berserker since it tends to limit Noble Phantasms. A pathetically weak Heroic Spirit like Angra Mainyu with dismal skills and weak Noble Phantasms would still be a major liability even with the bonuses of the Saber class.
The Master they are summoned to is also critical. A very powerful but mana-intensive servant like Gilgamesh would be severely limited by an incompatible, non-Magus master like Ryuunosuke for example. Berserker-class Servants are particularly difficult to control, especially powerful ones like Heracles who would be uncontrollable at best for all but the strongest magus and (in)directly suicidal at worst.

>>114950024

>Bulshit Tier:
Gil, duh

>Great tier
Saber
Berserker

>Good tier
Lancer
Rider (Sakura)
Archer

>Meh Tier
Caster
Rider (Shinji)

>Shit Tier
Fake Assassin
True Assassin

>>114955684
Cu, Arturia, and Hercules all belong in the bullshit tier too.

>>114954187
It's funnyhow this applies perfectly to EMIYA too

>>114950024
Implying saber is eve. In Gilgamesh tier lol. She is below him

Three classes are purposely designed to be the only ones that can actually win because of the three families that invented it dog.

Except anyone who isn't an idiot could win with assassin if they played him as such.

>>114955768
I'm sorry I don't rememeber, did Avalon beat Ea or did Avalon beat Ea?

It must be one of the two

>>114950024
Maybe it's just a porn game?

>>114955736
Not with the masters they got in the 5th HGW

>>114955684
Your list is full of holes. True Assassin killed Lancer, Fake Assassin could fight one on one with Saber with no problem, Caster+Kuzuki could beat Saber, Saber shouldn't be that high unless her master is Rin, Saber beat Gil fighting at full power, and Archer could beat him too.

Besides Lancer and Fake Assassin could survive against all Servants.

You can't establish powerlevels like this, only who would win against whom in a fight.

>>114955827
>Assassin
I assume you mean Hassan, a.k.a. the "true" assassin, right?

>>114955184
>Rider class
>D rank agility
literally what

>>114950024
The 'war' was a scam from the beginning to favor the three original family.

>>114955855
Cu and Arturia? Yeah. Hercules just got nerfed really badly by his class.

Well, Rin does end up being Saber's master in UBW.

>>114955910
Because he has to ride a fucking chariot everywhere! He doesn't have the maneuverability of someone agile who can just jump out of the way.

>>114955910
Waver sucks man. Actually Rider has really good stats considering his master.

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>>114955855
>Bazett survives
>yfw Lancer wins the war in 5 days

>Hey guys, I'm a secondary, look at me being a baka!

>>114950024
So does Nasu have any kind of justification for his alignment system? It's almost more broken than D&D?

>>114955638
Gilgamesh doesn't have a high upkeep so long as he keeps to GoB. He's perfect for managing reserves in that regard.

>>114955684
>Nasu Bullshit Tier
Gilgamesh

>Bullshit Tier
Arturia with Avalon
Cuchulainn with a Gae Bolg that actually works
Herakles

>Strong Tier
Caster with setup time
Cuchulainn (restrained/with no mana due to Kirei)
Archer (simply due to tactics and silver bullets, less good at straightforward fighting)
Arturia (Shirou)
Rider (Sakura)

>One Trick Pony
False Assassin (Hell of a trick though).

>Shit Tier
Caster with no setup

>Shitty Character
Rider

>>114955890
Saber beat Gil because he wasn't taking her seriously from the onset. She outright fainted, and he let her recover. She is slightly below him.

>>114956138
Pretty good actually.

If Kotomine wanted Angry Manjew to be born so bad, why didn't he just have Lancer and Gil trash everyone?

>>114956175
Not even the grail can eat Gilgamesh
> imply in same tier as saber

>>114956175
And Saber would have won much easier had she had a competent master. If both were at full power, Saber would wreck Gil with Excalibur after blocking Enuma Elish with Avalon.

>>114954121
>Rider-Alexander
>high tier
nice b8 m8

>>114956260
More YUETSU his way. If you had Gil, Cu, and a ton of Command Spells lying around, wouldn't you monologue a bit too?

>>114956271
Remember what happened in HF?

>>114956194
>Alexandre Dumas
What?

>>114956260
If two Servants suddenly started stomping on others, the remaining teams would proably ally themselves to beat them

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>>114955684
>Assassin
>Shit tier

>>114955736
Then you'd have to create a Gilgamesh tier because he's still infinitely more bullshit than any of them

>>114955838
Ea is the unstoppable force and Avalon is the immovable object.
In the contest to kill everyone else, Ea is more useful.
Gilgamesh could win every War he's been in single handedly in a few hours if he gave a shit and had enough mana to spam Ea, he's just too much of a proud asshole to grant all those mongrels the dignity of dying by his trump card.

>>114955890

True Assassin killed Lancer in a 2v1 fight, he had help from the shadow. He can even be killed by Kirei, a non-servant character.

Fake Assassin can survive against most servants, but can win against none in a battle to the death. Even True Assassin killed him in HF

Caster+Kuzuki is not a servant, it's a team. Caster on her own and without prep is pretty weak.

Saber is, with or without Shirou, one of the top servants of the HGW. Bullshit magic resistance, unmatched swordsmanship skills, one-shots everyone but Gil (and maybe Berserker) with Excalibur, and manages to survive until the end in 2/3 routes of F/SN and in F/Z.

>>114952074
butthurt kirei is gold

>>114956296
Well that's exactly what she did with Shirou anyway.

Saber can't beat Gil without Avalon, but she's capable of winning with Avalon and a shitty master.

>>114956260
He said his goal wouldn't be reached if he achieved it by himself.

>>114956068
>Lancer
>strong enough to beat Gil, Herc or Arturia
Cu is strong, no doubt. But he's not broken like they are. Hell, even Archer would probably beat him. You Cufags need to stop wanking him so much. He fought Gil in Fate at full strength and still lost.

>>114956438
According to Rin, the Saber class always makes it to the final round of the Holy grail ritual.

>>114956436
>Then you'd have to create a Gilgamesh tier because he's still infinitely more bullshit than any of them
Agreed.

>>114956296
She tried and got knocked unconscious before Avalon even factored in.

Am I the only one who feels like Archer is bullshit as well? I mean he can summon Unlimited Blade Works and just Broken Phantasm them up causing a shitton of damage.

>>114956438
>Even True Assassin killed him in HF
No he didn't, Kojiro was used as a catalyst.

What's Shirou's power level? Is he stronger than Kiritsugu?

>>114956376
Strange/Fake Caster was never confirmed but it was heavily hinted at being Dumas.

>>114956138
>Cuchulainn with a Gae Bolg that actually works

What? Gae Bolg works just fine, it's only not as great as fanwankers think it is. Blame E-rank luck.
Placing him above Berserker is ridiculous too. He can't even take half of his lives.

>>114956508
>Archer would probably beat him
Are you kidding? Cu wrecked Archer in UBW. Cu has a chance against Saber if she doesn't have Avalon. He definitely has no way to win against Gil or Herc.

>>114954770
most of assassin's fights are offscreen. I wish ufotable would animate those instead of changing onscreen fights like they did in ep0

>>114956508
I second this. As much as I acknowledge that Cu is an amazing servant, I can't put him on par with the likes of Herakles or Karna.

>>114956592
He didn't place Lancer above Cu. They're in the same tier.

>>114956436
>Ea is the unstoppable force and Avalon is the immovable object

Except not, Avalon acts more as an impenetrable boundary field. Whatever attacks it isn't stopped as much as it is conceptually impossible for the attack to enter the boundary field. Then the instant Gil finishes spinning he iis defenseless and Saber can cut him open

>>114956562
He isn't unless he receives backup.

>>114956524
He requires lots of setup or charge time, which makes him vulnerable. He's focused on the defensive when in a melee fight.

>>114956508
I was more saying the Bazett and Cu team would win against all other teams, except maybe Kotomine and Gil

Assuming both are at full power and Gil isn't being an idiot, he pulls proto-Rho Aias/something that can tank Excalibur/something that screws with casuality like Fragarach/something that just seals Saber away in Avalon/something that lets her dodge/Ea, then Enuma Elish at full holy shit half the planet is gone power/some conceptual bullshit/who fucking even knows what nasu wanks gil so hard and stomps. It's just that the whims of the King do not bow to mongrel logic.

>>114956524
At this point you're just saying "Noble Phantasms are bullshit." Well, maybe they are, but some are more bullshit than others and that's the point here.

But anyway go play the novel, son.

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>>114954367
my nigga

>>114956710
>Bazett and Cu team
Not even fair

>>114956524
In a fair fight where all the Servants are at the peak of their potential Archer gets wrecked.

Archer's generally won either by fighting weaker opponents or his opponents being gimped in his Grail War, and lost usually because he was gimped.

Arturia, Herc, Cu all straight out shit on him if everyone's peak. Medusa as well probably, and Gil if he doesn't dick around enough to the point where a regular human can shit on him.

>>114956138
>Archer
>less good at straightforward fighting

Why do people believe this shit. The guy can hold his ground against melee monsters like unrestrained Lancer, Berserker and Saber. Shirou even defeated Saber Alter in a duel using his techniques.

>>114956714
Takeuchi wanking > Nasu wanking
Saber wins.

>>114950024
The Grail War is not a balanced contest, its a ritual made by the three families along with Zelretch and a couple more others to create a hole large enough to send one of their mages to get in touch with the Root.

That's why the knight classes are broken compared to the other four, they were meant as filler containers.

>>114956710
I think the only way to win that is have Cu impress Gilgamesh enough to activate EA and then have Bazett fling herself in the way.

And a non-gimped Cu probably would get Gil's Pride boner stoked.

How long did he fight Gilgamesh while dying again?

>>114956748
If EMIYA actually was used as an Archer, he could wreck some people, but yeah, he'd lose to monsters like Arturia, Saber and Cu.

>Medusa as well probably
Now that's just bullshit. EMIYA can beat Medusa.

>>114956562
Shirou's strength depends entirely on how he develops.

In Fate he stayed weak and shitty throughout the entire route. He improved his swordsmanship a little under Saber's training I guess but he was still a no-talent magic user who couldn't even use his native abilities in any real capacity.

In UBW he progresses a lot farther with his magus training under Rin, his talks and fighting with Archer also helped him a lot too, so that by the end of that route he's aware of his affinity (swords) and is capable of using his tracing and projection, though still not perfectly.

In HF he gets Archer's arm and becomes incredibly broken.

>>114956842
>he'd lose to monsters like Arturia, Saber and Cu.
In a straight-up fight obviously.

>>114956842
>Shirou can beat Medusa
In bed, not in actual combat.

Cybele makes him retreat and Bellerophon would kill him instantly.

>>114956524
Unlimited Blade Works is arguably on par with or even more effective than a full force Gate of Bablyon, but it's much less useful since it's Archer's trump card and he definitely can't just spam it at will like Gil can spam his.
Archer also lacks much else in terms of insane Noble Phantasms or excellent stats so he's still pretty far behind all around.

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>>114956763
>Can hold his ground

That's all he CAN do.

He can basically fend them off while not making any progress and the moment he slips up he's dead.

>>114956842
I'd say his magic resistance isn't enough to beat Rider. He'd be Cybele'd and Bellerophon'd.

>>114956823
I think it was around 12 hours

>>114956594
>Cu wrecked Archer in UBW.
No he didn't. Archer managed to divert Gil's Noble Phantasm and Archer didn't even have to use UBW or any of his Broken Phantasms.

>>114955684
fake assassin should be in good tier while archer should be in great tier. I agree with the remaining ones

>>114956927
>>Can hold his ground
>That's all he CAN do.

What is killing Berserker 6 times?
What is forcing unrestrained Cu to a draw ?
What is Sparks Liner High?

>>114954770
Assassin vs Saber
True Assassin vs Saber
True Assassin vs Rider

Between the UBW and HF adaptations these should be eventually covered.

>>114956983
>Gil's Noble Phantasm
Cu's*

>>114955184
>Berserker
>Lawful/Mad

Ok, you got me.

>>114955184
Does anyone have F/SN's version of this?

>>114956989
>archer should be in great tier

Archer is great tier if you assume the fights take place in the context of the HGW, with all the variables this implies.
He's one of the smartest servants, if not the smartest, and can exploit contextual advantages and his oponent's weaknesses, but by power alone he's not that great. Put him in an empty space against one of the other servants, no prep, no masters, and he won't do that well.

>>114955184
>archer not chaotic neutral

>>114956983
Yeah and get critically wounded afterwards. Not to mention if Cu just used melee Gae Bolg, Emiya would be screwed.

>>114957228
So he's batman

>>114957248
Don't even start that.

>>114957024
1. Still a loss
2. When the fuck was that? My memories foggy on what fight he forced a stalemate on.
3. Still a fucking loss because Arturia ain't dead.

>>114955338
What is friggin command seals??

Can Hei kill a servant?

>>114957228
He's MC from the future, he's bound to be formidable one way or another.

>>114957257
>Not to mention if Cu just used melee Gae Bolg, Emiya would be screwed

If he could he would have.

>>114957338

does he know if he can kill?

>>114957285
>Still a loss
Do you have any idea what point you're trying to make anymore? No one's arguing he's the strongest Servant, the point is he's capable of some amazing things regardless.

>>114957378
Does the truth exist beyond the Grail?

>>114957228
Supposedly not as intelligent as Gilgamesh at their basest, according to CCC. But being made excitable did pull a number on him.

>>114957378
>>114957338
Dunno, check beyond the gate of babylon, the truth is there.

>>114950024
Because the "Holy Grail War" is a sham to begin with, it's just an excuse to summon Heroic Spirits to fill the Grail so that they can be used to achieve the Third Magic - the Heaven's Feel ritual.

>>114957361
No, he promised Rin not to instakill. Plus, Cu likes fighting so he doesn't just spam Gae Bolg.

>>114957285
>2.
Not that anon, but I think they are referring to the fight outside the church in UBW.

>>114956524
>Am I the only one who feels like Archer is bullshit as well?
he's the protagonist from the future who became an antihero character
that's like complaining why goku's powerlevel is over 9000

>>114957446
>No, he promised Rin not to instakill. Plus, Cu likes fighting so he doesn't just spam Gae Bolg.

That's the first thing he does against Saber.

>>114957257
>get critically wounded afterwards.

Yeah, so wounded he managed to kill Caster and Kuzuki immediately after that, with a rain of Noble Phantasms, go melee on Saber dual wielding (when his arm was supposedly almost torn off), cast fucking UBW (with no master support) which is costly as fuck, swordspam Shirou and succesfully kidnap Rin.

>>114957378
He's lost it.

>>114957446
How fast does Gay Bulges activate anyway.

>>114956983
Believe it or not, Archer does not have a good matchup against Lancer.

Archer can only put up a defensive fight if they were to fight in a melee and his bow will be ineffective because of Protection from Arrows; unless Archer is able to take up an advantageous position beforehand, well outside of Lancer's range.

Archer using his wits to survive both his encounters with Lancer is impressive, but he would have died in UBW had Lancer continued attacking after using his NP.

>>114957484
Archer is the white and blue man, so he has plot armour.

>>114957428
Yes, according to CCC, Gilgamesh is the strongest and fastest and smartest and prettiest, we know.

>>114957520
>but he would have died in UBW had Lancer continued attacking after using his NP.
Lancer was out of steam after using his NP though.

>>114957257
>if Cu just used melee Gae Bolg, Emiya would be screwed

They were fighting in an open space, getting out of range was perfectly possible for EMIYA. Not to mention Cu has to call Gae Bolg's name and put prana in it to use the curse version. It's not like he can do it in an instant, you know.

>>114956875
In HF he doesn't have UBW and the arm kills him though. He has limited projection ability. I'd say the stronger Shirou is UBW.

>>114957478
>That's the first thing he does against Saber.
Except it isn't? He used it because he was losing to Saber.

>>114957484
The only thing there that's impressive in terms of doing shit while seriously wounded is defending successfully against Saber. But even then, he immediately retreated anyway because he had no chance.

>>114957564
What? No. He can still keep going but decided not to because he realized what Archer's up to.

>>114957404
No, you're changing the goal post.

The conversation that started this was "Archer is shittier at Close Quarters than the Monster Servants"

He doesn't. He can hold his ground but then he either has to run away or get killed. He doesn't win these fights.

All the examples either end with him dead or retreating because he's GONNA be dead

>>114957564
Archer still fucking bitched out and ran away. If Archer was really on Cu's level he'd have been able to capitalize on that and kill him, but even a winded Lancer was strong enough to make him decide to run away because he knew he'd STILL lose.

>>114957589
Sorry, I meant if he can manage to get a successful one off. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but it's possible.

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>>114957564
>Lancer was out of steam after using his NP though.
Citation needed.

>>114957643
Both were exhausted - reread the scene. It ended in a complete stalemate because Archer outwitted Cu. Archer wins because he's Batman and outwits people against all odds.

>>114957602
UBW is the strongest in the longer term, mostly because he lives.

HF in the short, he can most likely kick UBW's ass because he has near servant level physical reactions plus Archer's inner world is stronger, so as long as he doesn't let UBW's Shirou chant he can win, but he'll die anyway.

I don't know if you're a filthy secondary or just baiting but I'll play anyways.

The Holy Grail War is a massive fuckup. It's just a shit system designed by a bunch of magi who were way out of their depth and it would have never worked, even if they hadn't contaminated it by doing stupid shit. A lot of the inconsistencies and rule breaking that you see isn't explained by "Oh Nasu sucks at writing" but rather "Gee a few idiots thought they could take a shortcut to the end goal of the entire Type Moon Universe (reaching the Root)."

Think of the Holy Grail War as an Early Access Game. It promises a ton of great features and rewards, takes in a ton of willing participants, and then suckers them into giving everything for this supposed end product. But the result is always disappointing, falls short of all expectations, and drains everyone involved.

And yet people still keep doing it.

>>114957685
>Archer wins because Cu is holding back most of the time

>>114957685
I don't remember Lancer said he was exhaust, just very annoyed since Archer managed to block his strongest attack and then he decided to fuck off.

Even Archer admitted himself that he would lose if they continue fighting.

>>114957685
Lancer was just out of mana, but he could still fight. Archer, on the other hand, was wounded pretty badly.

>>114956056
>>114954512

Bad masters that actively cause Servants to rank down in stats happen very rarely. Only three individuals are known to cause this: Shirou, Kiritsugu, and Shinji. Shinji's not a magus, so Medusa's ranked down in everything except luck. Kerry's a much better magus in his HGW than Shirou is by the 5th HGW, so he manages to supply quite a bit more prana along with Iri's support to Saber, but it's still not enough to manifest her full strength. Shirou is Shirou.

Kotomine fully supplies Lancer with prana, and we know this because Lancer has the same stats under Rin in Fate/Extra (with the exception of Endurance, which she buffed by swapping it with his Battle Continuation skill). He only partly supplies Gilgamesh with prana because Gil has the dying orphans to drink from, and Gil doesn't give a fuck about prana because of Independent Action A+.

If you compare Iskander and Medusa's stats (under Sakura), you'll find they're mostly equivalent. They can be considered the baseline for Riders, just with different stat focuses (Iskander is described as a tank while Medusa is described as a race car).

>>114955338
>>114954617

Kariya did supply the necessary amount of mana to give Lancelot full stats, that's why it killed him. It's why Berserkers kill pretty much every master short of Ilya who has virtually infinite prana to dump into Berserker. There's no safety valve on the prana they drain from their master, they're either topped off or the master's dead. Hence all the dead masters.

>>114957285
>3. Still a fucking loss because Arturia ain't dead.

Shirou missed the chance of finishing her off because he turned into a vegetable. Wouldn't have happened to Archer.

The point is he can do way more than holding his ground. For example, it's not like he only held his ground to simply buy time against Berserker, he went offensive and killed him a buch of thimes. And judging by the description of the wounds on Herc, there was a lot of melee involved. We know K&B's overedge was used too, probably to deliver one of the kills.

>>114957705
>But the result is always disappointing, falls short of all expectations, and drains everyone involved.

But what if the HGW is developed by Squad.

>>114950024
Well yeah, did you even play the VN? It's basically just a massacre of heroic spirits so that they fill the grail that's just covered up to look like some noble tournament. You wouldn't want that to end up in stalemate, you need those servants dead.

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>>114957705
>Think of the Holy Grail War as an Early Access Game

This

>>114957850
>did you even play the VN?
This is a taboo question right now.
>I don't like reading
>Porn demerits all the story
>Why is Shirou so sexist?

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>>114954367
>You will never see Iskandar reunited with Waver after he become the new Mellon.

>>114950024
Archer is the strongest servant and could win the war in three days. Prove me wrong.

>>114957778
So you're basing your argument on a fictional situation in which Archer is the one fighting Saber Alter and that the fight goes 100% the same.

The still means Archer needed fucking Medusa support to get Arturia down to that point where he could.

And Archer got 6 lives off a GIMPED Hercules and lost.

Almost only counts in Horseshoes

Archer is an average servant
He sits at the kids table along with the Casters, Assassins, Alexander and Robin Hood, while watching the real servants eat at the big boy table

>>114957907
>Why is Shirou so sexist?
Please no. I recently argued with some idiot who really believed this.

>>114957946
If he summons Alexander again, it will be a different one and therefore won't know him.

>>114957695
>he has near servant level physical reactions

Source fucking where? They don't say this shit anywhere in the VN.

>>114957520
>his bow will be ineffective because of Protection from Arrows

Protection against arrows doesn't mean inmunity.

"as long as the shooter is within his line of sight, he can track down ranged weapons with his eyes and defend against them"
"does not apply for attacks made from super-long-range or with a great area-of -effect"

Basically, Caladbolg and other explosive Broken Phantasms can kill him, and normal arrows can hit if Archer is out of his sight or sniping him from a very long distance.

>>114957970
>Archer is an average servant
Not him, but that's not true at all. Archer looks like an average servant stats-wise, but his NP puts him in the "great" tier, in my opinion. You just have to play him right.

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>>114957987
Get used to it. This is just the beginning.

>>114957970
>The still means Archer needed fucking Medusa support to get Arturia down to that point where he could.

Medusa isn't in SLH

>>114957993
Isn't Waver part of Iskander's army now?

>>114956983

Rho Aias is explicitly Archer's greatest projection. Using it means he was forced to pull out his finest work as the Wrought Iron Hero, the pinnacle of his tracing ability. UBW is not some secret super mode, it has limited applications because all it actually does is reduce the cost in prana of tracing things and allow him to trace much faster since he no longer has to project anything, it's instantly created in his hand. That's not as much of a buff as you might think, especially since it takes such a long time to activate it.

>>114955684
Medusa with Sakura is on par with Arthur, but with Shinji she could be the weakest servant.

>>114958005
The fact that he can keep up with Dark Saber, whose stat superior in every to Saber except LUK and NP?

Not him though. And I still think that Saber Alter actually hold back a bit in that fight.

>>114957705

>OK there will only be Seven Masters and Seven Servants
>Except when there aren't. (Bazett, Kotomine, Gilgamesh)
>Each Master will only have one Servant.
>Except when they don't. (Kotomine, Medea, the Edelfelts)
>Only certain Heroic Spirits can be summoned as Servants.
>Except when they aren't. (Avenger, EMIYA, Assassin)

The Holy Grail War has more bugs than an Alpha Test. It is a testament to how desperate the people involved were not to admit that they fucked up that it actually happened 5 times.

>>114958054
Yeah he is actually....

How does this work?

>>114958030
Thank you for expanding on what I already wrote.
>unless Archer is able to take up an advantageous position beforehand, well outside of Lancer's range.

>>114958054
No, Waver will never be a part of IH

>>114958054
Fan wanking shit

>>114957695
HF Shirou without his arm is the weakest, and his arm is crazy impractical.

I mean shit, he didn't get /anything/ outside of the arm. I don't even think he unlocked his circuits properly, which at least Fate Shirou did.

>>114958050
FUCK YOU'RE RIGHT

God, I forgot.

I thought that it went that Medusa gets blasted by Saber and Shiro had to man up.

Well, 1 point for Archer then.

>>114958105
Probably doesn't work, just a fuck-up on the part of the author.

>>114957970
>And Archer got 6 lives off a GIMPED Hercules and lost.
He didn't use UBW and didn't target Illya like any other servant would do, and was fighting him in a very confined space, mostly hand to hand. Killing him even once in that kind of circumstances is a very impressive feat, for any servant not named Gil.

>>114957564
Christ we all love Archer but you're such a fucking faggot
Cu, Arturia, and Herc are considered the creme of the crop of servants for a reason

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>>114958005
Really nigger? It's the sole reason he could take on Alter. How the hell do you think he took her on?

>>114958071
>Rho Aias is explicitly Archer's greatest projection.
What? Did you mean protection?

Rho Aias is a pretty good shield and all, especially against projectile attacks, but I don't recall it ever being referred to as Archer's greatest projection. Unless this is something mentioned in F/HA.

>>114958195
He didn't use UBW but he pulled out A-rank projections which should be adequate enough to kill Berserker

>>114958196
>Cu

Being so good everyone instantly recognized you even if you didn't your trump card must fucking sucks.

>>114958174
What if Waver is in IH during that grail war, but he's not in any other summonings of Iskander's IH?

>>114950024
It's rigged so that one of the three families will win, using Saber/Archer/Lancer.

Read the fucking VN.

>>114958243
Because he had Rider's help. Litterally the only reason.

>>114958264
If it was for Goldy they would be the strongest
I mean who expects the "guy who lost his chance at immortality like retard got so sad he died" to be OP as fuck

>>114958030

Funnily enough, that situation comes up in F/HA. Lancer very easily deflects all the arrows Archer fires at him even from well outside the range of Protection Against Arrows' effect. Just like Saber does, who also does not have that skill.

Even at a long range it's by no means a guaranteed victory against Lancer or Saber. They are quite capable of closing the gap if they want to, the question is how much Archer can make them work for it and waste precious energy reaching him. If he can weaken them enough by the time they reach him, he can finish them off in melee. Otherwise, he's hosed.

>>114958131
Yet he took on enemies bigger than a underpowered Gil.

>>114958264
Servants are implanted with the knowledge of the identity of enemy Servants when they are summoned.

Other Servants like Alexander and the Hassans can discern a Servant's identity through inner knowledge or as an ability. Alexander knew who everyone was except for Berserker, because he had FSG turned on.

>>114958341
Except in Sparks Liner High when Rider isn't there bro.

>>114958260
UBW is not much against Berserker, but the swordspamming could kill Illya at any moment, forcing him to slow down/retreat, giving Archer some more time to shoot BPs at him. But that's just as implausible as seeing Gil take Shirou seriousle, since Archer would never hurt Illya.

>>114958341
That's SLH, you double fucking faggot.

>>114958243

Alter also lowered her physical stats to Shirou's level, because she wanted it to be a fair fight of raw skill rather than simply overpowering Shirou with her raw attack power like she did with Archer, who she completely wrecked when he tried to fight her.

>>114958382
Saber gets shafted in that area since she's not on the throne
She knew Cu because his legend was famous and she just happened to know it but others are outside her area of knowledge like Gilles

>>114958360
>F/HA
>Implying it doesn't shit on all the material we previously had about the servants.

>>114958382
>Servants are implanted with the knowledge of the identity of enemy Servants when they are summoned.

What?

>>114958437
[citation motherfucking needed]

Why are people saying that HF Shirou wasn't at servant tier anyway? In fucking Fate, he defends himself pretty well against Rider despite being a lowly human. It's not hard to believe that Archer's arm pushes him over the limit.

>>114958461

We've never seen Archer fight in that manner before, nor have we seen how Saber and Lancer would react to that fighting style, so no, it's not material we had beforehand.

>>114958437
>Alter also lowered her physical stats to Shirou's level, because she wanted it to be a fair fight of raw skill rather than simply overpowering Shirou with her raw attack power like she did with Archer, who she completely wrecked when he tried to fight her.
Source?

>>114958396
Hercules cannot die with crappy projections, one can only kill him with A-rank Noble Phantasms or higher.

You bet your ass he projected Excalibur and Caliburn at one point.

>>114958370
Still ridiculously limited in his potential. UBW Shirou has all the tools to be fucking crazy. He unlocked his RM 10 years before Archer, saw everything in it, and saw swaths of things in GoB. Plus he has Rin guiding him.

I would love to fucking see the 10 year time skip when he's with her and Waver taking out the grail.

>>114958384
>>114958418
>muh bad end
Isn't canon.

>>114958522
But he can't project Excalibur and only Saber can use Caliburn.

>>114958513
>>114958507

The fact that Shirou can somehow keep up with while Archer got his arm instantly chopped off?

>>114958539
>canon
Get out of the nasuverse

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>>114958382

>>114958196
>Cu, Arturia, and Herc are considered the creme of the crop of servants for a reason
Cu is not on par with Arturia and Herc.

HE'S FUCKING NOT.

>>114958437
>Alter also lowered her physical stats
You worded that terribly.

Saber Alter did lower herself to Shirou's level so it would be a match of skill, but saying that she changed her stats isn't incorrect at all.

>>114958568
>muh parallel universes
>muh zelretch

>>114956122
saber - king arthur
archer - gilgamesh
lancer - karna
rider - achilles
berserker - hercules
caster - wowitsfuckingnothing.png
assassin - wowjustquitthewar.jpeg

>>114958539
Moron.

>>114958475

He's sort of correct, but that's a bad way of putting it. Heroic Spirits have an instinctual knowledge of all the other Heroic Spirits because they share an existence in the Throne of Heroes together. That's why heroes from ages long past can recognize somewhat modern heroes. However, Counter Guardians are the only ones exempt from this rule, as their identities remain unknown even to each other. That's why Lancer is so pissed off and furious about not being able to figure out who Archer actually is - Archer's basically a cheating motherfucker on top of using a weird fighting style and myriad NPs that break and shatter constantly before pulling new ones out of his ass.

>>114958522
>You bet your ass he projected Excalibur and Caliburn at one point.
Incredibly unlikely. Trying to project something like that is a very inefficient use of complete prana when he can trace something like Caladbolg and turn it into a BP instead.

>>114958567
Archer was defending Shirou though.

>>114958567
Archer was a moron there.

Also losing does not mean not being on the level of a servant.

Saber wouldn't lower her skills to the point of losing.

>>114958589
He's on the same tier as Saber but Herc is in their tier pretty much because shit like Gil and Karna exist
to use Smogon rules they're OU while the last two are Ubers

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>>114958539
>Isn't canon

>>114958589
>Cu is not on par with Arturia and Herc

He is

>>114957970
Alexander is hardly average. He definitely isn't as good as some people make him out to be, but he is one of the higher tier Servants.

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>>114958589
>Insta gib NP
Shitty luck and not being the main character is the only reason why he doesn't win.

>>114958660
>Counter Guardians are the only ones exempt from this rule, as their identities remain unknown even to each other.

Even in Throne of Heroes? Or is EMIYA not in it.

>>114958692

He charged at Saber Alter and she sent his ass flying with a single swing. It's a difference in raw power that Archer could not overcome.

>>114958522
>one can only kill him with A-rank Noble Phantasms or higher.

He can die from any A-rank attack, not only NPs. That's why Rin was able to kill him once. with only her jewels.

>You bet your ass he projected Excalibur and Caliburn at one point.
He can't trace Excalibur, he can only make an imperfect version like Shirou did in HF normal end, and even that would be most likely a suicidal attack for him.
As for Caliburn, even assuming he can use it, it would have killed him a crapton of times like it did when Shirou/Saber used it.

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>>114958768
>Loses to Medusa
>High Tier Servant

He's basically king of the Manlet power level servants before all the big boys show up

>>114958784
That's why it managed to insta-gib Saber right?

>>114958807
Well yeah, but he wasn't trying to win the fight there. He was buying time for everyone else.

>>114958768
Alexander needs a meatdoll like Ilya to be effective.

With her prana stocks everyone worth noting in his army would have their NPs materialized.

However his army is still vulnerable to Anti-Army, Anti-Fortress and Anti-World NPs which means a good portion of them will die before accomplishing anything.

>>114958823
Medusa is pretty good and she's a hard counter to Alexander.

>>114958795
EMIYA is on the Counter Force.

>>114958823
Yeah because Medusa is pretty good?

>>114958807
>It's a difference in raw power that Archer could not overcome.
With K&B, of course. But maybe he can compensate that difference by projecting something thart raises his STR stat, much like K&B increase his END and magic resistance.

>>114958874
According to your powerlevel argument he should be able to win the fight.

So why just buy time when you can win?

>>114958784
I don't understand what's going on in this webm.

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>>114958732
>Smogon rules
i like you

EMIYA is UU but could be use in OU the team if you are good enough
Lancer is top OU, ez to use like Talonbro
Rider is OU with Sakura
Berserker is OU, but Uber if any other class.
Caster is NU
Fake Assassin is RU
True Assassin is probably UU
Gil is Kyogre

Powerlevel discussions are meanignless.
The only factor that is important to determine how powerful a Servant is is "Relationship with the MC".
As long as he is the MC's ally, even the shittiest Servant will suddenly be all powerful and already broken fags like Gil will get even more broken.

>>114958823
Medusa just counters him with the fact that he has low magic resistance and cannot counter Cybele.

Via Expugnatio and Bellerophon going against each other is a coin toss.

>>114958823
Medusa is broken as fuck, she can beat the majority of non-Knight classes instantaneously.

>>114958957
He couldn't win in that situation because of the shadow.

>>114958975
someone throw on the red guy Lightning spear.
In the first game it was a really shitty miracle who could work only on people who doesn't move.
This time it's moving like a gae bolg

>>114958874

He certainly wasn't trying to get himself sent flying. In a straight fight like that situation, where he has to fight directly and cannot abuse trickery and tactics to stack the odds in his favor, Archer would not win, that much is certain. If it came down to skill vs. skill, though, like in Sparks Liner High, he would have a chance to defeat her using Crane Wing Three Realm, just like Shirou does.

>>114957477
How come goku is so unbalanced? Vegeta is always a step behind of goku, Gohan is supposed to be stronger when angry and still doesn't kill the bad guy, kuririn and tenshin-han are thrash tier because toryama nerfed humans. Meanwhile Goku is literally God tier (he reached God sayan so that makes him literally God tier hehe get it). The only one that comes close is Mr. Satan since he defeated Majin Boo.

>>114958981
It's not meaningless if I'm having fun anon.

>>114958977
shirou = pachirisu
saber = smogonbird
lancer = washing machine
hercules = smogonfrog
gil = primal kyogre

>>114959093
It's not meaningless, it's worthless.

>>114958981
Yeah tell that to Saber who gets her ass handed to her in UBW and HF.

>>114959055
Oooh, I get it know. I just assumed the attacked auto-homed or some shit.

>>114958981
Power Level discussions are meaningless because Primate Murder and Type-ORT could take out ALL these Heroic Spirits easy.

>>114959143
She only got her ass handed in HF when she went from MC's ally to MC's enemy.
You're right about UBW though.

>>114959061
Yeah, that's all I'm arguing. I don't know why people think "Saber lowered her stats" or whatever when she fought shirou.

>>114958032
>You just have to play him right.
The same could be said of literally every servant.

>>114959172
>Type-ORT could take out ALL these Heroic Spirits easy.

Including Gil? Will EA work on ORT?

>>114958954

No such weapons have been shown to exist, and it is unlikely that any weapon that does such a thing would put him on par with Saber Alter, considering it's a 3 rank difference in STR. It also means he's not using his true personal fighting style, and Archer hates that.

>>114958253
It is. Specifically called his greatest projection, he calls it that in the fight with Cu.

>>114959197
>She only got her ass handed in HF when she went from MC's ally to MC's enemy.
No, she was a snack for the shadow just like everyone else.

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>>114958981
This is true, Sir Gawain can beat any Servant no sun, no sweat, just like that.

In fact, no one has stepped up to the plate to challenge Sir Gawain and win.

>>114959172
Type-ORT could do it alone.
Primate Murder would fail if he tries alone. I mean, he had an advantage because of the primates things but I think 9 Servants could deal with him, considering 7 CGs are enough to defeat him.

>>114959215
That doesn't mean said servant is great. The only reason Avenger is even viable is because of Bazett's bullshit.

>>114959172
That makes no sense.

Nobody is trying to argue that a heroic spirit could beat Primate Murder, so why the fuck would it matter? The discussions are about who is stronger at a lower level.

>>114959267
That's because the Shadow's state as MC's waifu was higher than Saber's state as MC's ally.

>>114959346
I don't think that's how it works

>>114959282
>Defeat

Not defeat, keep him at bay.

>>114958895
The conditions for IH state nobody gets a NP.

>>114959376
Yes, that.

>>114959416
Nobody did because Waver was a shit master

>>114959258
No, he definitely said "protection".

>"I'm just an archer. Your analysis was not incorrect."
>"Bullshit. An archer would not have a shield to block a Noble Phantasm."
>"I guess you can, under the right circumstances.
>But this is the result. I used up most of my magical energy, one of my arms is destroyed, and Aius is shattered.
>…Man, that was the greatest protection I had."

>>114958507
Rider wasn't ordered to kill Shirou until near the end (she thought Shinji wanted Shirou alive). In UBW she was trying to force Shirou to use the command seal to call Saber so she could cut off the arm and take the command seal for Shinji.

>>114959250
>No such weapons have been shown to exist

Reminder that Shirou copied Berserker's strength when he traced his axe-sword.

>>114957987
he's a whiteknight with insanity level survivor guilt which manifests as high level chuuni/hero syndrome. he should be in a padded cell on suicide watch

not sexist

>>114958360
>>Funnily enough, that situation comes up in F/HA. Lancer very easily deflects all the arrows Archer fires at him even from well outside the range of Protection Against Arrows' effect. Just like Saber does, who also does not have that skill.

It's noted Archer raining down arrows kept Lancer from returning home even if he was quick enough to avoid it most of the time, which is why he had to camp out. It's also noted that Archer never aimed to kill anyone he fired upon, except for Avenger. He just gave them warning shots.

In Saber's case, she has Spider sense that kicks in ever if protection of arrows does not at worst.

>>114959494
Well yeah; I'm not saying he could win, but doing what Shirou did against a servant is really impressive as a human. Rider had to kick him out of the window to kill him.

>>114959575
Sasuga EMIYA-kun

>>114959551
At least one person here has read the VN.

Assuming best potential Masters (Saber + Rin, Rider + Sakura)

Saber > Archer
Saber >= Lancer
Saber > Fake Assassin
Saber < Berserker
Saber > Rider
Saber > Caster

Archer < Lancer
Archer > Fake Assassin
Archer < Berserker
Archer >= Rider
Archer > Caster

Lancer >= Fake Assassin
Lancer < Berserker
Lancer > Rider
Lancer > Caster

Fake Assassin < Berserker
Fake Assassin < Rider
Fake Assassin < Caster

Berserker > Rider
Berserker > Caster

Gil > Everyone

There we go, now shut the fuck up.

>>114959494
Shinji will never harm Shirou, Rider was a barbaric autist

>>114959575
It's funny how Archer does this but still hangs out with Lancer during the day- going to the pool together, fishing together, etc - like it's nothing.

>>114959721
>Saber > Archer
Post disregarded.

>>114959586
No, shirou wad growing swords as defense against the nails at that moment. Rider thought it was some defensive spell and decide to just kick him out the building

>>114959699
80% of the people here HAD read the VN.

>>114959802
It's noted to be Lancer's style entirely, which Shirou tries to say isn't normal in this day and age anymore.

In UBW they talk about how he's the type who could try to kill you one minute, then you go out for drinks, and then you're killing each other again later.

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so, why does Type Moon hate Ilya-fags so much?
even if they didn't give her a route, did they have to throw this in to kick you while you're down?

>>114959823
You realize Archer gets his ass handed to him once Rin becomes Saber's Master in UBW, right?

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>there are people that think Kara no Kyoukai is better than Fate, Tsukihime, and Mahoyo
>there are people that think Kara no Kyoukai is better than anything in TYPE-MOON

>>114959911
At least it's not Sacchin-tier level of BULLSHIT.

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Why doesn't someone smart just contract all the servants so they're guaranteed to win? Kirei and Edelfelts prove multiple contracts are possible. If it normally isn't possible, summon Medea then after each summon use rule breaker to contract the new guy

>>114959471
Sanda: So do they have basic Skills and Noble Phantasm as Servants?
Nasu: No, since they were summoned via Rider's skill, it was not necessary to assign them Class based on the rules of the Holy Grail War. However, since there is a limit to Rider's abilities, their Noble Phantasms could not be materialized. If Iskander's army of tens of thousands could pair up with Gilgamesh, who had unlimited Noble Phantasms, the result would be most ideal.

>>114959721
There's some errors.

It should be Rider >= Archer, Gil >= Saber (with Avalon) and Gil >= Archer.

>>114959959
You would need some bullshit levels of mana to do that.
If you had that much power you won't even need the Grail.

>>114959959
If Rule breaker doesn't work have Medea summon assassin, then have Medea supply Assassin with enough mana to summon someone else, then go down the line until you have every servant!

>>114959721
Saber under Rin can beat Berserker. Her stats are stupid under Rin.

Saber with Rin as master has:
STR: A
EN: B
AGI: B
MGI: A
LUCK: A+
NP: A++

Her Magical Energy Burst also becomes A.

>>114959823
Except it was the case. Restored Saber completely overwhelmed Archer in melee, UBW Archer could only trace a knock off version of Excalibur that he doesn't have enough mana to use without completely draining him.

>>114959721
Saber Alter in numbers and all around power comes out better than Rin's Saber.

People don't think so for some reason, but it is more dangerous than normal Saber by far. They say "It lost a rank here", but in numbers, it's still ahead and infinite mana blasts.

Also the idea that Rin's Saber is Saber at her peak in life, such a thing wasn't ever really stated either.

>>114959849
It's specifically stated that while Shirou is getting wounded, he is managing to stop the blows from being fatal and of course, his body is made of SWORDS. It's pretty impressive man. That vast majority of people would have just been wrecked.

>>114960030
Shirou can stab Sakura and rule breaker takes effect. Does it really need that much mana if Shirou can handle it by the end of HF?

>>114960075
Would one excaliblast insta gib all 12 lives?

>>114959932
I'd say KnK is better than Fate and Tsukihime

>>114960196
We all agree with you.

>>114960081
It just specifically stated that Saber got her true power (her potential as Servant) back by Shirou.

>>114960075
It's an assumption at best to say she could beat Berserker. Even Alter needed to tag-team him to stand enough of a chance.

Excalibur is still taxing for even Rin.

>>114959721

Archer>=Gil (he's not taking a faker seriously, ever).

Saber>=Archer (if masters or civilians are in play, Archer could be a dick and target them with BPs/swordspamming, forcing Saber to tank the hits)

>>114959907
I think Archer actually stops shooting servants down after you kill him in the cycle. He just goes on watch.

>>114960152
Breaking a contract and making one with 7 Servants are completely different things.
You would need to suck dry of their magical power the population of 4 Fuyuki Cities in order to do that or some bullshit like that.

>>114959928
>>114960076
Saber vs Archer
Nasu-san CHECK! (no need to take into considering the editor ones so)
The class of the representatives of close-range and long-range combat. Saber, who would take her sword in any condition whatsoever and Archer who would fight using a strategy of victory. The highlight won't just be the different battle styles, but the difference between their personalities.
However, even with UBW, it's questionable whether he could hold Saber back in single combat. One definite hit from sniping and one absolute blast of death from her Holy Sword. It might really depend on the wit of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand.

>>114960222
He doesn't quite say that, and Shirou doesn't really know what her real potential or power is at all, he's never witnessed it from the start. People make a lot of assumptions on that line, but in the end all he's saying is "Her power is incomparable to before".

>>114959575
Sense was mentioned to give the same effect as protection for arrows in HF wasn't it? That skill is too fucking broken...

>>114959721
With top tier masters on both sides Saber vs Archer can still go either ways, especially if Emiya does the same shit he pulls on Shirou/Avenger and Hruntings the Master before Saber kills him (since no shield NP to save them from eating homing arrow nukes).

>>114960076
Not that guy, but Saber clearly mentions things might have gone different had Archer not been masterless and low on prana at that moment. It was literally a reversal from the same situation merely seconds prior except Archer still had just about enough bullshit in reserve to go for last attempt at winning.

>>114960236
Archer would never hurt civilians.

>>114960236
>Archer>=Gil (he's not taking a faker seriously, ever).

You're retarded. He doesn't take Shirou seriously because he's a fucking ginger highschooler. Archer being a Heroic Spirit is an immediate step up, he isn't going to act like a dumbass against Archer.

>>114960215
>>114960196
Mirai Fukuin and Remaining Sense of Pain were the only good KnK movies.

>>114960225
I don't quite remember that scene. I haven't read HF in a while, but I have just reread UBW so I'm fine tuned there.

Rin!Saber pretty much matches Berserker in all aspects except endurance. Plus, if Caliburn could take off 10 lives, then Excalibur will definitely take off more.

>>114960254
>One definite hit from sniping
What? Archer can one-shot Saber? Bullshit.

>It might really depend on the wit of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand
Is he implying that if Saber has Shirou she loses? WTF

>>114960366
Are you kidding? Gil calls Archer a dirty faker plenty of times. He only goes all-out against people he respects.

>>114960433
>What? Archer can one-shot Saber? Bullshit.
Archer can BP that shit and headshot. That's an insta-kill without Avalon.

>>114960433
Archer can one shot every servant besides Berserker with sniping. No one can take a fucking Broken Phantasm to the face and survive.

>>114960449
He calls him a faker, but at the end of the day he is still a Heroic Spirit. You're stupid if you believe he would treat Archer exactly like he treated Shirou.

>>114960433
BP shots can oneshot anyone not Herc or the fucking Pegasus (and only cause Archer lacks the prana for an A++ BP).

>>114960393
>not liking Paradox Spiral
I didn't even know such a thing was possible.

>>114958981
>only watched anime
>Doesn't realize even in novel the other parties have plenty of winning endings too dependent on their strength.

Keep on secondarying.

>>114960393
I think the only weak film was the second (the one where it's when Shiki and Mikiya meet). The best by far was Paradox Spiral.

>>114960611
>delusional Gilfags
Gil would not take EMIYA seriously enough to use Ea right off the bat which is what he needs to win. Thus, it is possible for EMIYA to outwit Gil like Shirou did.

>Trying to assign absolute sort of values about who's stronger or weaker, in a series where literally anyone can win based on situation and power level never matters. A series where the underdog almost always wins.

>>114960327
Except Archer have enough mana for UBW, multiple NPs against shirou, mana for rho aius (expensive) for gil, and sword rain until the end.

>>114960679
I read the VN, you faggot.
Mention a party opposed to Shirou that remained like that and didn't got completely fucked over by the end of every route.

>>114960611
>at the end of the day he is still a Heroic Spirit
Implying Gil cares about that shit.
He didn't even take Herc seriously until the end, and he's one of the greatest heroic spirits that have ever existed.
And he wasn't taking Shirou that lightly either, he even pulled Ea on him before getting inside UBW.

>>114960183

Berserker was confident that Excalibur could not kill him even with six lives left after Archer took six.

A weakened excaliblast took two of his lives. It is unclear how much more damage a full one could possibly do, but if Herakles was confident that it would not take all of his lives with six lives left, it probably would not.

That being said, Caliburn is some bullshit, man.

>>114960917
>Plot armor

>>114960998
To be fair, the only reason why he didn't take Herc seriously was because he was summoned as Berserker.

>>114960744
He doesn't need to use Ea right off the bat. Once Archer proves that he is capable of fighting, he'd understand that he isn't dealing with someone capable of threatening him. He wouldn't go full retard like he did with Shirou.

And this isn't even adding the fact that Gil would have his armor on when he fights Archer. Gil defended against Saber's attacks simply by deflecting them with his armor during the first fight scene in Fate.

If we are talking delusional, you're the delusional Archerfag.

>>114960717
I thought the worst was the 1st, but only because it doesn't make much sense as a story when watched without knowledge of KNK (which is what happens to most people, seeing how it's the 1st movie).
It's better on re-watch, but I wasn't sure what I was supposed to understand about the characters from the 1st movie alone.

>>114960917
Dude, the defining attribute of the end of a route is that it's an ending where the MC wins at least in some sense.

The villains win lots of times. Those are called Bad Ends.

Fateverse isn't really about powerlevels, it's about how thick you can lay on bullshit.

>>114961083
Sorry, that was ambiguous wording on my part. What I meant was that Gil wouldn't instantly use Ea on Archer and Ea is the tool Gil needs to use to beat him since Archer can counter GoB. This means that there is an amount of time where Gil is not very serious which means that Archer has a shot of winning. Obviously, that window of time is shorter than it would have been for Shirou, but Archer doesn't need nearly as much of an opening to win either.

>>114961018
It's not even that.
The only way to get a less painful experience in the suffering train is by sitting near Shirou. and even so you will fucking suffer anyway, but at least you will make it to the end with a bit of luck.

>>114961158
An enemy can survive without wining.
The only ones who come to my mind are Kotomine and Zouken dying in sort of peace with themselves and Shinji surviving UBW.

>>114960419

Heracles was being absorbed by the black mud at the same time that he fought Saber Alter. The mud essentially locked him down and made it so that he had to tear his own flesh off and his muscles apart to move (and even then, the mere act of moving while covered in the mud was considered a clear impossibility as no other Heroic Spirit was able to do so), while Saber Alter could move freely. It was an awful, terrible situation. Without the mud's interference? Berserker would have fought Saber Alter to the bitter end to protect Ilya, and he probably would have won using his sheer willpower and impossible strength (and the twelve lives thing).

>>114961316
>An enemy can survive without wining.
That's kind of hard when the conflict is about slaughtering each other.

>>114961407
There is something called giving up or losing your Servant.

>>114961316
>An enemy can survive without wining.
No, not really. The HGW is a fight to the death. No one is just going to bow out and retire to a farm. Servants literally only exist to get the Grail or die trying.

>>114961407
Tell that to Waver or Rin.

>>114961461
Not everyone has the same ideals as Shirou you know.