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These two switch places. What happens.

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These two switch places. What happens.
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>>110477426
Caster would be of no significance to Touma.
Touma could touch projected weapons to disperse them.
Someone keep going.
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>>110477582
He disperses the projected weapons and then Archer beats the shit out of him physically.
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>>110477426
Touma would literally fix just about any shounen he gets thrown into.
>>
We already went through this, Shirou dies horribly against Accelerator, Touma accidentally the whole world.
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>>110477621
Touma can touch any servant and they would instantly die other than Saber though
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>>110477664
>implying pre-brain damage Accel can do anything against magic
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>>110477621
This is true.
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>>110477713
Pre brain damaged Accelerator was implied to be stronger than brain damaged Accelerator but less creative
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>>110477664
>Implying Shirou can survive against Stiyl
>Implying Touma can survive against Lancer

>>110477713
Implying swords don't have vectors
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>>110477824
Imagine Breaker would destroy gay bulge
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>>110477695
The problem is touching the servant. Even stupidly gimped angry manjew could beat touma without getting imagine broke.
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>>110477426
Technically shiro would probabyl have never gone to academy city if we are talking about since birth.
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>>110477824
MAGICAL swords
>>110477800
Stronger sure. But as you just said, before fighting against Touma, awakening after listening to Index song and fighting against Kakine, he wouldn't do much against magic.
If a magic user were against him and finished him QUICKLY he wouldn't have time to change his calculations.
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>>110477426
Well the Toaruverse is fucked since IB is required for the universe to function. Shirou doesn't have anything to do with Keikaku, so he won't get wrapped up in all the shit Touma did (assuming the world doesn't break apart the moment Touma leaves). Though Crowley might want to use his Projection ability somehow, who knows.

Touma's basically only survived by his support network and losing in ways that achieve his objectives. He doesn't have the first going for him in Nasu, and the second is a total toss-up which he probably can't achieve without the first.

The mostly likely scenario is both worlds are destroyed. Nasu by the Grail, Toaru by either whatever the hell Crowley is cooking up or IB leaving.
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>>110477891
I'm not saying it wouldn't be a close shave and that Accelerator wouldn't get massively injured, but I still don't see him just rolling over and dying because magic even pre brain damage
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>>110477891
>>110477963
He can reflect magic without understanding it. It just doesn't go back at his opponent.

Random effects happen, but his ability still protects him. We saw that when he fought those Russian magicians.
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>>110477875
It's possible that a Servant might not realize how bullshit Touma's right hand is, which just looks like "attack cancel" most of the time it's used. Once they know they disintegrate on contact he's fucked, but without that knowledge he might be able to bullshit something off.
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>>110477426
This thread is just an indirect way of asking if Touma can beat servants, isn't it.

The answer is pretty much the same with if Shiki could kill Servants. Both have the tools, but so long as they are physically outmatched, they get rekt

Of course there's also the argument that the bodies of Servants are 'natural' (i.e. unaffected by IB) but I'm not informed enough to get into that
>>
>>110478050
I could probably answer this, but I don't know the exact mechanics of IB.
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>>110477999
We saw that after he already understood that "non-existent" things could affect him. He already got into contact with magic and Kakine's shit.

What I want to see is what would happen BEFORE that.
>>
So what happens if Touma touches the holy grail with his right arm?
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>>110478050
Wouldn't the only natural one be Saber since she isn't technically dead and the other servants are spirits?
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>>110478158
The holy grail gets destroyed?

Why ask such an obvious question
>>
Touma stands no chance against Medusa or Cu, because they are too fast to intercept, Nor against Iskander, unless he can IB an entire plane of existence, and he could not hope to even touch saber without losing an arm, and Herc isn't even a question.

>>110478158
His arm is likely not a high enough level Divine Mystery to overcome it, so he would probably be hit by grail mud, and at best would come out darkened.

But, I've never seen or read index, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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>>110478108
I think the only precedent we have prior to that is his ability to reflect teleportation effects that he can't quite understand himself (or else he could be a teleporting Accelerator, and that's just garbage).

However, he has shown himself capable of figuring out amazing shit on the fly. And remember that old Accelerator is actually smarter in terms of raw computational power than new Accelerator.
>>
Yes I know rabid Touma fans will come shout me down and say "he won he won he won he won" but objectively speaking, Touma can get his ass handed to him by literally anyone he's ever fought. The only reason he won all those fights is outside help. The minute people stop protecting him and someone really fucking wants him dead, he's dead. No "m-muh punching" is going to change that. The only reason he didn't straight up lose even his first round in NT10, never mind his other rounds, is people were on his side.
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>>110478091
I find the question uninteresting honestly, but i'll give you a decent explanation.

Basically the Toaru universe consists of a bunch of fake universes stacked on top of a "real" one (it doesn't have any magic or religion in it, all religions are fake in Toaru). Imagine Breaker contains the data on all of these universes, and knows what's natural and what isn't. It's a reference point to return to and reconstruct any realty if you can't do it yourself.

Basically anything that doesn't fit the data in IB of what "should" be there gets destroyed.
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>>110478245
That's pretty much every shounen MC though, same thing happened with Shirou in every route.
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>>110477426
He gets in the fucking robot.
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>>110477426
>replacing a well-written character with great scenes confronting his ideologies and whatnot with a complete mary-sue generic protag who has nothing interesting going for him
Touma is literally one of the worst characters we've been forced to endure.
And this board's boner for him is just insulting to everyone's intelligence
>>
>>110478091
>I don't know the exact mechanics of IB.
Neither does anyone else.
>>110478160
Servants are spirits, but they have a "natural" origin. These kind of cross-overs are stupid.

Even if Servants weren't natural, a single touch wouldn't kill a Servant. It'd just drain the shit out of their prana until either the Servant/Master ran out or they stopped touching each other. Which means Touma gets wrecked.
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>>110478314
>replacing a well-written character with great scenes confronting his ideologies and whatnot with a complete mary-sue generic protag who has nothing interesting going for him

Wait you're talking about Touma or Shirou?
You just described both.
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>>110478262
So, in Nasuverse, it would be an "Arm of instant Counter-Force", and would be pretty damn strong. It fits pretty neatly with the concept of "The world is always working to right itself".

In a sense, it would instantly use up any spells remaining duration and dissolve it.
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>>110478314
Yeah I don't get why people cream themselves over him so on this board. He's not all that great a character. I see him as more of a plot device
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>>110478314
>replacing one shouenshit protag with another shouenshit protag

Fixed4u
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>>110478387
I'm pretty sure people just like him because he punches people and informs them that they aren't living their life correctly.
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>>110478108
So Accelerator would be able to deflect the full force of UBW? With hundreds of magical legendary weapons being hurled at him?
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>>110478387
Touma is better than Shirou because Touman punches lolis in the jaw
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I'm not familiar with Fate, but isn't there something like that already? Rule Breaker?

>>110478382
It's not completely invincible. At some point in time Fiamma of the Right gather up, like, all the prana in the world and chucks it at Touma, and Imagine Breaker isn't able to eat through it completely.

Also, for those of you not in the know, if Touma loses his arm, something fucking mysterious awesome comes out. I'll leave it to someone familiar with both worlds to estimate its power.
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>>110478451
Could Accelerator reflect Gae Bolg?

I want to say "no".
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>>110478262

So when lolisensei was talking about personal reality and how the powers worked in Toaru, what it really meant is the espers were manipulating an alternate universe and compositing it on to the real one?
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>>110478461
I wasn't in the Shirou vs Touma debate. I just don't understand why there's a collective boner for such a boring character both on this board and in universe.
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>>110478509
I would say no too.
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>>110478387
He punches little girls on the face.
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>>110478505
Not how Fiamma's power works. It doesn't have destructive force or speed or power. It just hits and destroys the enemy because it does and it has enough power to destroy them because it needs that much power to destroy them.

Touma was only able to barely deflect it since it couldn't judge exactly how much power it needed to destroy him.
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>>110478509
No. Gay Bulge only gets stopped by really high Luck or shit that messes with causality.
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>>110478547
On the board: people don't think he's personally all that, they just like how he punches out girls all day.

In the universe: he rescues a lot of people, who like him because they rescued him, and he's a pawn in a bunch of ludicrously powerful people's plans.
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>>110478547
Because Touma is the most alpha MC since Kenshiro
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>>110478617
I liked him less early on. I like him more now that basically everyone has called him on his shit and his response has been "Yeah, I don't really care if i'm right or not, i'm still just going to do whatever I want."
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>>110478617
Liking Touma because he punches girls is literally the shittiest reason I've ever heard for liking a character. And this is a board full of people claiming to have superior taste?
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>>110478616
>high Luck
Um, then Touma would get pierced twice. First of all when he uses Gae bolg it would already be in his chest he can't Imagine break that.
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>Rejoice, Kamijou Touma.
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>>110478701
It's ok sometimes to like a character for just doing outrageous stuff.
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>>110478091
well, this >>110478262 anon explained pretty much everything revealed (yet), but there's still no real / canon explanation about IB's true nature.
The only one who know IB's true nature are Terra (dead), Aiwass, Aleister, and Kamachi himself.
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>>110478701
>everyone must take a series completely serious like I do
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>>110478765
The explanation above is stated to be only from the perspective of Magic by Ollerus. There's more to it, but it does at least function as stated. It's just not all it does apparently.

Terra probably didn't know shit.
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>>110478777
Where did I say it had to be serious? I never said you had to have some deep, philosophical reason for liking Touma. I just said liking him because he punches girls is a shit reason
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>>110478616
Could Accelerator survive Gae Bolg?

>>110478701
No, people enjoy that because it's dumb fun.

>>110478702
Gae Bolg might cease to exist to exist at the same time that it "struck Touma," if you really want to work with bullshit.
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>>110478857
Accelerator's power kept his circulatory system working even when he was nearly cut in half. So maybe?
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>>110478857
>Could Accelerator survive Gae Bolg?

If he can survive the first piercing and stop himself from bleeding out? Most probably.
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>>110478617
Touma does whatever HE thinks is right. He's strong enough to say, "fuck your greater good, I'm looking out for my friend's greater good". He's like the typical edgy anti-hero except he's not edgy, he's likable, and he isn't afraid to get his collard shirt dirty to fight for what he thinks is right.
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>>110478857
>Could Accelerator survive Gae Bolg?
It would hit but>>110478910
He might be able to work without a heart for a while.
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>>110478921
The thing that's kind of annoying about Touma is that he wins all the time, and never had to make a hard decision until NT9. It's like the universe conspires to support his moral system. He never even has to kill anyone.
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>>110478857
He probably could not survive, because Cu claims that wounds inflicted by Gae Bulg will not heal. Unless he has some magical sheathe which has a perfect healing ability, Accelerator's days are numbered.
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>>110478857
>Gae Bolg might cease to exist to exist
What? Imagine breaker is in his arm not his heart. He is dead.
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>>110478969
>a shounen MC wins all the time

Stop the presses
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>>110478812
Yep, that's what I said before, this is about what we know about IB's true nature (until now) and there's still a lot more.
I'm pretty sure remember that Terra said it himself that he didn't know what is "true purpose" of IB's existence, at least he has some grasp about IB.
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>>110478982
I think he was making a joke about Touma having - EX luck.
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>>110478857
>Could Accelerator survive Gae Bolg?
When Gae Bulge pierces the heart, it shoots thorny vines throughout the victims blood vessels. Even if Accelerator can deflect them away from his vessels, he's still getting shredded.
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>>110478994
Technically light novels aren't published in magazines.

>>110478982
If he tries to block the spear with his hand, it may go straight through his hand and into his heart, but disintegrate as it reaches its target. Man, I don't know how this shit works.
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>>110479030
I think, even if you have a magic-removing arm, that grabbing a legendary hero's magical spear mid-attack with your bare hand is a pretty dumb idea.
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>>110478969
He wins situations most of the time. As far as battles go, he's lost more than he's won, and almost all of the fights he's won he's had help.

I mean shit, you can even shut up angry Biribiri fags most of the time by pointing out she's saved his life about 5 times for every 1 time he's saved her.
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>>110479030
The spear doesn't need to go through his hand. Once he chants the name and he has shitty luck his heart is pierced without even needing to move the lance.
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>>110479067
Well, I guess we can discount that possibility. Neither of the protagonists depicted in the OP would ever do anything dumb.
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>>110479086
Touma has the best luck in the world, everytime he's about to die someone saves him, everytime the enemy can kill him they go on a long rant for no reason that buys him time
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>>110479146
I think Othinus implied that his luck kept him alive this entire time just so he could be tortured by her. So that's actually kinda likely.
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>>110479146
That's not luck that's plot armor it's been said he has horrible luck.
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>>110479084
He loses fights, but he never "morally loses." He never has to give up any of his ideals or loses what is important to him (until, again, NT9). The world pretty much conspires to make his decisions right. That's a luxury that Accelerator and Hamazura don't get to enjoy.
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>>110479205
Only by his description since what he thinks is luck is just him being used as a pawn with planned events
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>>110479067
He blocked a God's spear that's capable of destroying the universe once and only got a broken arm.
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>>110479229
Oh, he'd definitely lose against archer, then. Archer would hate his guts.
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>>110479146
>>110479194
>>110479237
His luck doesn't let him die because living how he lives is shit and dying would bring him peace. Gae bolg would him fuck up.
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>>110479067
His hand grows back when removed. Between an expendable hand and a non-expendable heart the decision's pretty easy.

>>110479086
It doesn't have to; the question is whether or not Touma can make it happen.
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>>110479283
Assuming an un-gimped Cu, he would probably just use Gae Bolg again. The weapon's greatest advantage is spammability.
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>>110479283
A spear he saw coming so he could block it.
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>>110479229
NT 7 actually did have a moment like that as well. At the end of the Rensa fight, he went after her knowing that he might be killing Yakumi. He was hoping Rensa would save her somehow, but he was willing to kill Yakumi to save Rensa if it came down to it.

He was pretty bitter in the epilogue as well of that volume.
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>>110479286
How could he lose against someone who's 100% about summoning fake magical weapons when his ability completely stops that
>>
>>110479084
Except he's come out okay in literally everything he's done even if he gets injured. Everyone sees him as perfect. All the girls want his dick despite the fact he has no looks or personality, only "hurr I'll charge in and punch someone for you". I think the only reason this board likes him is so they can pretend they've won all these battles and have women on their dicks which could explain why people are so passionate about shipping
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>>110479339
Archer could very easily attack places which aren't touma's arm. Wing of the Crane technique would tear him a new asshole.
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>>110478314
>any character in fate
>well written
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>>110479295
>Touma can make it happen.
There's nothing that he can make happen he will just be pierced and if he touches the lance by then it would still be too late.
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>>110479395
Well, compared to Index, Fate is poetry.
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>>110479286
Nah, I doubt Archer hate Touma.
Archer hate Shirou because he keep spew some bullshit about saving everyone and become hero, which he will sacrifice himself if necessary.
Touma didn't care about that crap, if Archer said that he will take care of some mess, Touma will let him do it. Yes, sometimes their path will cross and their fight is inevitable, but they will get along most time.
>>
>>110479444
>hey, my shit is less stink than your shit
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>>110479404
Touma might just end up with a non-magical lance in his heart without the vein-raping magic. Technically, the spear has correctly struck its target, like it is supposed to.

>>110479345
>hurr I'll charge in and punch someone for you
That is his personality. It's not great.

>>110479331
I guess so - but isn't that somewhat like trusting Rensa to save her for him? After all, it worked out.
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>>110477426
Touma would be on the left and Shirou would be on the right
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>>110479323
Think about Cu, isn't Lancelot's NP is Anti-Unit A++ rank?
Hypothetically speaking Lancelot have capable or at least decent master, isn't Arondight spammable just like Gae Bolg but more lethal?
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>>110477426
Touma touches servant, servant stops existing. gg.
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>>110479345
>Everyone sees him as perfect
I see. You get most of New Testament is just people telling Touma he's full of shit and Touma agreeing right?

Hell people don't give Touma enough credit in-series if anything. Most of his allies were willing to kill him without listening to what he had to say in 10. It was kind of psychotic. Hell internally he spent most of 10 saying "I'm not doing the right thing here, but i'll just let them punish me afterwards."

Granted he was trying to protect an omnicidal psychopath, which would confuse most people.
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>>110479600
>Touma might just end up with a non-magical lance in his heart without the vein-raping magic. Technically, the spear has correctly struck its target, like it is supposed to.
Possibly if he puts his hand on his chest covering his heart but it will still pierce him.
>>
>>110479632
Arondight doesn't actually have an active effect. It's just unbreakable and boosts the user's parameters.

It was Lancelot himself who was sucking prana like a sponge.
>>
>>110479345
Most people barely care about Index ships anymore. Even people who do ship Index don't take it that seriously. The only "passionate" argument people have had lately is about whether Misaka Mikoto is a shit and that was just dumb all around.

It's probably trolling but lately people have been claiming that Misaka is more likely to end up with Accelerator than Touma, who they figure will either get a bad end or an Index end.
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>>110479808
I think Open End was stated to be the most likely option. Bad end I see as unlikely. Maybe a minor one, like he loses his memories again or everyone forgets him or something.

Supposedly there was an interview where Kamachi said he wouldn't let character popularity influence who wins, so god only knows. Maybe Itsuwa will win. Or Agnese.
>>
>>110479808
I know some of the Misaka/Accelerator speculation isn't trolling at all. But some of it probably is.
>>
>>110479905
Most of it is. Accelerator straight up said he would kill Mikoto for having given up her DNA map as a kid if the Sisters would allow it. As far as he's concerned she's as guilty as he is. Was in the PSP game, but it's written by Kamachi and was referenced in the LN.

Crack pairings can be fun though, so eh.
>>
>Rin sees dead Touma lying on the floor
>Try returning him back to life
>Nothing happens
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>>110480082
Magic should affect his heart no?
>>
>>110480018
A PSP game is not canon even if some ideas are later used in the novel. I am not saying that he doesn't feel that way in the novels, but until Kamachi writes in the actual novels that he'd kill her if the Sisters would allow it, then I really wouldn't consider it absolute canon
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>>110480135
He's immune to healing magic regardless of whether it's his right hand or not. Not sure why it's different, but there you go.
>>
>>110480018
No, he said that he wouldn't kill her because she was responsible for the Sisters being born. Also, Accelerator is all talk. Deep inside, when he's not eating people's faces he's a big old softie.
>>
>>110480018
>>110480219
Yeah I didn't think Accelerator saying "I'd kill you if the Sisters would let me" was quite right. Good to know that's bullshit.
>>
>Thinking Accel x Mikoto has even the most remote chance of happening
Top kek.
>>
>>110480503
They already have a connection. Accelerator's more likely to develop feelings for her or the clones than Touma. But knowing Kamachi he'd probably make it one sided.
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>>110480578
Honestly if he ever did develop feelings for her or the clones he'd probably keep it to himself so regardless of whether or not it's possible for her/them to return his feelings, it wouldn't go anywhere because it'd be kept hidden
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>>110478702
Touma has both the worst and best luck in the world simultaneously. I'd say without IB his pure luck is greater than Kanzaki's
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>>110481164
Huh? All I heard was that his bad luck kept him alive so he could suffer more.
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>>110478220
>because they are too fast to intercept,
He'd perfectly trip into them at the right moment if his own abilities are inadequate

>Nor against Iskander, unless he can IB an entire plane of existence

That was gremlin's entire purpose of baggage city to test if alternate planes could exist in the same area and if IB could destroy them. It can.
>>
>>110477426
Kind of depends when they start in their timelines and how much remains the same despite being a protag switch. For example, if they just both randomly dropped into each other's world's one day, Touma would never even see the Grail War and Shirou would get killed instantly by Mikoto's electricity.

Realistically though, both have chances of surviving somewhat.
Touma's IB makes him a wild card and depending on your interpretation of it, will kill any servant/weapon it touches, or at least force them back into spirit form immediately. This is a great boon for him if he teams up with someone like Rin, whom is sure to weaponize him to great effect.
Shirou will have a harder time in academy city, but if he can get someone like Kanzaki or Index to teach him the basics of magic, or at least to utilize his projection properly, he should be able to win a few battles. Of course, he won't have Avalon anymore, so his suicide tactics won't last him too long.

In conclusion, I'd say Touma has the best chance of surviving, and maybe even winning, in Fateverse whereas Shirou will start having trouble against higher tier magicians.
>>
>>110481243
IB cancels out any luck he should possibly have but he obviously has really fucking good luck at the same time for things around him to go so well that aren't keikaku related.
>>
>>110481604
I think that's just plot armor.
>>
>>110478220
Touma's arm seems to operate on a direct link to Index's equivalent of Akasha, so the only person w ho can challenge him directly would be Ryougi. Nothing in Fate, short of maybe Avalon, will overcome IB. Additionally, IB has been proven to not destroy just localized realities, but entire alternate universes as well, so reality marbles are small time. Finally, Shirou logically shouldn't be able to keep up with servants either, but he does so anyways without completely shattering his bones with just one swing. It's clear servants don't move as fast as Nasu claims - even F/Z shows them moving pretty slow - slow enough for the human eye to track perfectly fine.
>>
>>110481601
For shirou it comes down to how well his tracing could stack up against magic. Can he fight off innocentius with his weapons? If he can't even beat a jobber like Stiyl then there's no way he could handle people who are seriously strong like acqua or curtana boosted knights and such.

And then for Touma we should compare servants and mages in nasuverse with magic gods like ollerus and othinus. We know othinus even before gungnir > dragon and dragon > damn near everything. So even if a servant cuts off IB, how do they fare against the new entity?
>>
>>110478285
Most shonen MCs are overpowered, though.
>>
>>110481643
Luck is actually a thing in indexverse, even residual luck. Kanzaki's only form of bad luck comes out in the shape of a washing machine
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>>110481795
>So even if a servant cuts off IB, how do they fare against the new entity?
Everyone gets fucked.
Counter Force gets called in.
Japan becomes a wasteland.
>>
>>110478220
>But, I've never seen or read index, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Grail would just cease to exist unless it's existence is sustained by a completely separate entity channeling magic into it from some predetermined tunnel.
>>
>>110481849
I thought she also gave bad luck to people around her.
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>>110482001
She believes she sucks luck from other people as the explanation for why her luck is so good. Dunno if it's true but I don't see Touma's friends or people around him having exceptionally good luck from him not gaining any
>>
>>110482099
He is not a saint or anything so it applies differently. Or maybe that's the case that's why everyone around him gets saved because he gives them good luck.
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>>110482286
>everyone around him gets saved

I wouldn't say always
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>>110482482
His bad luck was too strong then.
>>
How bad would Acqua kill Saber?
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>>110477426
>Touma replacing Shirou
No mana transfer because mana get neutralized by Touma's hand.
>>
>>110478969
>It's like the universe conspires to support his moral system
Blame keikaku.
>>
>>110478707
I laughed way too hard at this
>>
>>110478314
>shirou
>not generic

OK
>>
>>110477426
if anyone realizes they just need to avoid touma's right arm he's completely fucked. As much as I believe Shirou is a raging faggot, he's just more powerful than Touma.

Because like... one right arm isn't gonna fare too well against Gate of Babylon or any of the other ridiculous shit that he'd have to deal with.
>>
>>110477426
Touma is a more dangerous shiki, he can oneshot servants with IB and negate many of their NPs but his physical attributes suck in comparison. He can beat any of them depending on chance but the odds are slim

Shirou loses to stiyl. UBW shirou or Archer can get through most of the magicians and espers though the level 5s from mugino upwards and gunha can beat archer (accel and kakine easily, mikoto and mugino in a tough battle 50/50 )

Against the saints shown, their physical stats are equal to or above the top tier Servants so archer loses to acqua probably. Against Brynhildr Silvia and kanzaki its a difficult call as their stats are better but UBW is OP
>>
>>110483725
The expression on gils face if he sees Ea's strongest attack get negated would be amazing though

But yeah Touma only gets one fight against each opponent assuming info doesn't spread. Any more and he's boned
>>
>Touma in Fate
He becomes magus hunter Kerry.

>Shirou in Raildex
He becomes a bloody paste due to Accelerator.
>>
>>110483794
>mikoto and mugino
Can't he just snipe them with broken phantasms I really doubt they can survive that.
>>
>>110477426
We've had this thread before.
>>
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>Touma gets killed by Berserker because his weapon is actually what he was summoned with and can't just be imagined away
>Shirou gets fried by Stiyl and index gets her memories wiped again
Great story guys
>>
>>110483873
Nah. Shirou has rulebreaker.
>>
>>110483794
What happens if Touma loses his arm in battle?
>>
>>110483873
>He becomes a bloody paste due to Accelerator.
Doubt it. Shirou can spam all his magic swords and I doubt accel could do much to them since they are all different.
>>
>>110483935
Grows back sooner or later.

Or a dragon comes out.

One or the other depending on the day of the week and how many bitches are nearby.
>>
>>110483891
Lightning and lasers fly faster than broken Phantasm

Archer can't survive those either unless he uses rho aias

Plus mikoto is impressive given she lived in a fight against a saint who has servant level physical specs if not superior
>>
>>110484016
>rho aias
There you go he survives and nukes them.
>>
>>110484016
>a saint who has servant level physical specs if not superior

We already established that servants are stronger than saints.

Servants are actual historical figures.
Saints are replicas of historic figures.
>>
>>110483869
Thing is, I doubt Ea would ever be pulled out.

>GoB, 1 sword, fire.
>Well, that didn't work.
>Shouts about mongrels for a bit
>GoB, 70 swords, fire
>Corpse

That's how I imagine it would go down
>>
>>110484090
What about Saint George
>>
>>110484090
>Saints are replicas of historic figures.

Who says a copy can't beat an original?
>>
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What if Shiki and Shirou switched places?
>>
>>110484214
Serious Gil can't be beat unless he is getting jobbed by MC.
>>
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>>110484313
Shirou never harms Arc so she takes care of things, and SHIKI is dealt with if it becomes a problem
Shiki ends the war in a couple of days or dies to berserker because he's not Ryougi
>>
>>110484313
is this some type of harry potter nigga, the fuck am i lookin at right now.
>>
>>110484144
Imagine Breaker is inherently weak to projectile spam but Touma is able to handle various forms of it pretty well by grabbing shit and throwing it at other shit in a fancy way that opens up a safe spot for him.

Don't ask me how it works, it really is bullshit.
>>
>>110484542
>this niggas never heard of shiki
lurk some more aight
>>
>>110484542
A maid rapist.
>>
>>110483935
Step 1. Dragon
Step 2. Bite
Step 3. Arm comes back
>>
>>110483978
How does Shirou stand against train-kun though?
>>
>>110484090
Saints have aspects of Jesus, not just any historical figures. Except Acqua who has jesus and mary and power of god and can still use normal magic.
>>
>>110484693
Honestly, the only way Touma would stand a chance against a lot of enemies would just be to remove his right hand at the start of every fight.

But that would be fucking dumb.
>>
>>110484774
Oh and Brunhild is a valkyrie and saint at the same time.
>>
>>110484144
More spam doesn't help. Accel attacked Touma with an obscene amount of wings in WW3 and Touma just grabbed one, turned it at a weird angle to block the rest and accel was stupefied that he was still standing.
>>
>>110484144
Gil is the servant I am most confident that Touma has the ability to defeat just because Touma's role in Index is pretty much just to stomp jobbers flat, and Gil is Gil.
>>
>>110484542
He has a magic knife that cuts things.
>>
>>110477426
>Fate
Touma dies killed by Berserker because no Avalon.
If he does have Avalon, then he probably get killed by Berserker in the forest because he can't trace Caliburn to use with Saber.

>UBW
Get slaughtered by either Archer or Gilgamesh.

>HF
Get slaughtered by Alter Berserker.
>>
>>110484790
>But that would be fucking dumb.
No it wouldn't better than dying. But who cares he got the armor of plots.
>>
>>110484871
You implying the mongrel can hold one of the legendary weapons? Kek. Only reason Lancelot could use them was because of his ability.
>>
>>110485105
Either he stops the weapon from existing once he grabs it, or he stops whatever magical enchantments it has and now has a normal weapon he can use to deflect shit.
>>
>>110485150
>a normal weapon he can use to deflect shit.
It doesn't work that way if it gets turned into a normal weapon it will break once the legendary weapon hits it, it would be like a bullet going through paper.
>>
>>110484313
No rape in Tsukihime. Shirou can't kill SHIKI for shit in Arcueid's Route. Kill himself in Ciel Route. Get killed by Akiha. Kohaku dies.

Shiki would go full Nanaya against Rider in the Bloodfort scene, then proceed to get slaughtered by Berserker.
Get killed by Archer or Gil in UBW.
Kill the Grail in HF.
>>
>>110481807
>Most shonen MCs have retarded plotshield, though.

True.
>>
>>110485241
He has the ability to do a partial cancel and can use supernatural attacks to deflect supernatural attacks by essentially canceling out only the part of the attack that he grabs.

I don't even LIKE the fucker, but he really does do a lot of stupid shit.
>>
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>>
>>110485350
So he would deflect one sword while the others stab him? I mean it's a rain of swords and he is not strong enough to move a sword to deflect everything.
>>
Wouldn't Touma's punch make a servant disappear?

Or at the very least negate all their magic and leave them unable to move?
>>
>>110485416
Or he cuts off his own hand and lets the dragon eat the swords.
>>
>>110485517
The dragon is not a sure pop up.
>>
>>110485383
Are there any other characters besides Touma and Shirou that could be thematically appropriately swapped?

>>110485416
>he is not strong enough to move a sword to deflect everything.
At some point it's revealed that Touma is capable of phenomenal combat-potential garbage. Essentially, if there's any way, in any universe, that a sword could be thrown into a sword rain, deflecting enough swords into swords to give him any chance of survival, then he could do it.

If it's completely, completely impossible - nobody could do it, no matter how lucky, no matter how skilled - then he'll eat it. Or >>110485517, but that's stupid.
>>
>>110485564
In the 4 times he's lost his hand I can recall it's shown up.
>>
>>110485512
I'd think that his IB would cut off the servant's prana supply from their master, but servants can still function without that for a short while. And if it's an archer they can survive for 2 days.
>>
>>110485627
>>110485637
Whatever he beats Gil, I just know one can overpower the other and if Gil was serious there's no way Touma should be able to defeat him if Gil exhausts him enough, but then again Touma can conjure plot armor from his ass so he will always win in any situation.
>>
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>>110485832
>so he will always win in any situation.

Touma loses a lot, the problem is Gil is relying on completely magical items and we're assuming Touma has full control over dragon or at least awareness to make it come out.Since all this shit is hypothetical anyway
>>
>>110485832
>if Gil was serious
Well, no shit. Gil can do amazing shit when he gets serious. Touma can't defeat Gil alone, but Touma and Gil can work together to defeat Gil, either because Gil

- screws around enough for Touma to punch him into oblivion, or
- pulls out Ea, watches it explode, and then cries himself to death
>>
>>110485902
How long would the dragon be out? Gil can always spam it indefinitely.
>>110485987
Touma is the MC those two options will happen you don't need to choose them cause both would be active.
>>
Sometimes I wish Index was a visual novel just so I could read all the ways in which Touma could have failed miserably.
>>
>>110477426
Nobody here read the index LN?
>Touma would get his right arm severed by Lancer during their first random encounter.
>Lancer would tell him why this is happening before wanting to execute him.
>Lancer would smirk as he seems to have won against his bad luck this time.
>A monstrosity appears from Touma's right shoulder stump that ravages Lancer to shreds.
>Father Kotomine picks up the young man, carries him to the safety of the Church and sows his right hand back.
>Touma runs into Ilyasviel and randomly falls upon her body, faceplanting her cunt and hands on her DFC.
>The Grail's vessel is now destroyed, all Servants fuck off.
The end
>>
>>110484090
What

Just because both series have saints doesnt make them equalized at all. Arthur in index isn't a woman.

Saints are able to move at supersonic to hypersonic speeds while fighting. Kanzaki was able to perform an orbital reentry without protective gear and she managed to hold Archangel Gabriel at bay for a while when the latter is basically Divine Spirit/aristoteles tier in power with wings that could blow away mountains and Gabriel was preparing a spell to blow up the entire planet. And Kanzaki is mid tier saint in terms of specs, tied with brynhildr and Silvia. Acqua beasts them all in a physical fight.

Its being lenient already to say saints are equal to servants physically as they already have feats that even arturia and Heracles would be hard pressed to match. And those two have by far the best physical stats of servants and would both destroy Archer in a straight up fight.
>>
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>>110487710
>>Touma runs into Ilyasviel and randomly falls upon her body, faceplanting her cunt and hands on her DFC.
>>The Grail's vessel is now destroyed, all Servants fuck off.
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