I read that starting out with just chaos magic will be detrimental to one's magical progression. That is, one should have a basis in smth else before.
Is this true? Why?
Thanks in advance.
Nah, fuck it. But the deal with chaos magic is, it often borrows a shit ton from other systems, often in the form of something called a "paradigm."
I.e. for whatever time being, you aren't a chaos magician, you aren't Alex Perez (or whatever the fuck your name is), you ARE a wiccan doing super leet goddess earth magics (just an example).
But the real power with chaos magic, comes from the fusing and moulding of paradigms, as well as the creation of new ones. Namely, chaos magic's primary goal is strip all the gobbledygook bull shit and look at the bones and organs of a system. Figure out what you like about it, and rip that part out. Do this with other systems and paradigms. By the time you're done, you'll have your own magic mother fucking frankenstein.
Once you've worked with that system for awhile, find a new one. Replace this organ with that one.
Chaos magic is flexibility, fluidity, and intuition. So while I can definitely see the advantages of being familiar with other esoteric systems, it's not at all requirement. The point of chaos magic is results, and if you can get results, then fuck whoever says you can't do something.
it's true. i could tell you why but i doubt you'd believe me. it's actually very dangerous but only if you succeed, so i don't think this will be a problem. The same reason Crowley is consider dangerous. It throws you in deep waters so you can scar yourself for life
beacause if you somehow do manage to have an intense gnostic experience using chaos magick it will shake the fuck out of you. I'm seriously you have no idea. Why do you think people say occultism is dangerous? it's basic stuff. Other systems tend to focus much more on the basics
>Namely, chaos magic's primary goal is strip all the gobbledygook bull shit and look at the bones and organs of a system. Figure out what you like about it, and rip that part out. Do this with other systems and paradigms. By the time you're done, you'll have your own magic mother fucking frankenstein.
Don't think so. The whole "primary goal" thing is not very much in the spirit of chaos. Chaos magic doesn't have a primary goal. Maybe it is the absence of a primary goal, or of a central focus, as we see in the symbol with the arrows pointing away from the center.
The term chaos magic is now used to describe everything that is not set in a definite form or inside a definite paradigm. It doesn't use a certain magical system but takes inspiration from it, and shapes something new and personal using the inspiration it takes from anything and everything.
For example you can play classical music, play the works of Beethoven to the perfection, every note in its right place and timing, and you'll be a classical musician. Chaos magic is punk rock. Or trash metal. Shit it's rap too.
The most important thing is that something is not MORE magic or LESS magic just because you're using an ancient book written by dead wise men or you're making a ritual using boken car stereos and twisted coathangers. Magic is not in a system, it may be harnessed, or pass through a certain system, but it is not inside this paradigm or that paradigm. It doesn't work because of the system, and is not made captive by any system. It's what you cannot capture and find very hard to explain.
>For example you can play classical music...
This is a bad example. While playing classical music, you are a classical musician. That doesnt mean you cant also play punk rock. Chaos magic is not like punk rock because punk rock is its own "school".
Chaos magic is a punk rock cover of a Beethoven song.
>Chaos magic is a punk rock cover of a Beethoven song.
Just because I'm making music and some other guy made music before doesn't mean Im playing his music.
Anyway OP if you do it you'll understand.
Chaos is the DYI approach, the other approaches are more traditional, and have certain requirements. You have to study the book, gather the apropriate materials, robes, say the proper chants, etc...
Explain life, the universe and everything.
Magick is just hyper-science.
What makes cold fusion?
Magick is a tool you use that you don't understand. Let me show you.
This is magic.
Do your self It
But I meant DIY - Do It YourSelf
>Just because I'm making music and some other guy made music before doesn't mean Im playing his music.
I never ment to imply it that way...
ok how about this:
Chaos magic is neither classical nor punk rock, it is a punk rock piece using classical progression instead of contemporary progression and lyrics by a rapper.
Is that more agreeable?
>Shit son I'd listen to that. Get busy.
try "between the buried and me" theyre more prog rock but theyre heavily classically inspired. No rap unfortunately, cant have everything unless youre a mashup artist, or a chaote.
it's bullshit. You will need to understand other systems before you can put them to use in chaos but you dont have to "start elsewhere"
Since chaos magic has strong ties to the music world, it only seems appropriate to me.
Then talk to gods that will give you an ak.
This is chaos magic.
I prefer to stick to established traditions when I can, but I use magic for healing. Healing is difficult to chaos into being though.
Chaos has a purpose and a method. It's a cure for stuffiness and bookishness caused by too much magic.
We're all exposed to too much magic whenever we do anything these days. Why do you wear clothes top hide yourself? Magic. Why do you work to stay alive? Magic. Why are people racist? Magic. Why are people egotistical? Magic. Why am I talking to a bunch of assholes on the internet? Magic. Why do I use symbols to speak? Magic. Why do I know what is or isn't magic? Magic. How do you read this? Magic. Why do the rich get richer? The magic of ignorance.
Magic magic magic Magic Magic MAGic paranormal Nothing is real magic magic magic, magic; magic. Magic? Magic. Cults? Magic. Religion? Magic of tying. Atheism? Magic of star-trek. Clowns? magic of makeup. Celebrities? Magic.
We are all operating on paradigms and chaos is the act of change. But too much chaos and you can't magic the magic that others magic. You won't be able to feel the magic magic that makes magic magic. Too much chaos and magic magic magic, magic magic....magic magic, aliens, good and evil nothing is. Chaos magic magic, magic god, magic magic, relinquish "I", magic magic, god magic magic, magic demons, magic magic magic, jesus. Magick yoga, ma-magick magic.
I know you understand, because magic.
>so how come the popular opinion is that you should be respectful towards them?
Because you should.
>i don't think the psychological stance is very respectful desu
I dont think you understand the psychological stance.
I'll just randomly experiment with a sick person,
Who cares what ALL the medical styles through history agree upon.
I'm gonna go drink mercury because in all the magical traditions it's used for health.
This is not wise. Mercury requires proper administration, in ways that are already established in magical traditions.
Healing can't be chaosed into being like making someone sick. Because health is orderly.
Health is represented by old timey libra-scales.
You try to balance the weight, not randomly adding things that you don't fully understand their weight. You use weights for it. Weights that you know and trust. And you put them on the scales in a way that others do.
To chaos your health properly would require you to understand medical systems and remedies in other words, the orderly way to use chaos. It can be done, but it's not chaos magic if you know what will happen 100% based upon other evidence. Then it's anti-chaos magic. It's a science instead.
Medicine is an art of living, and it can be improved with chaos, but external chaos. You want your poor to definitely come out of your butt, not any-other place. But if you need to create chaos to make friends for your health then alright then, that's healing, but not internal healing. It's external, internal stuff is best left to the ones who know shit. It's why demons and drugs can fuck ya up if you don't dose them right, in the right quantities, and proportions.
>I'll just randomly experiment with a sick person,
Why would you do that? That's fucked up. Also not at all what chaos magic is about.
>I'm gonna go drink mercury because in all the magical traditions it's used for health.
Believing dogmatically in spiritual or magical traditions in deference to logic is everything chaos magic is opposed to.
>Healing can't be chaosed into being like making someone sick. Because health is orderly.
I think youre confusing chaos magic with: "random uncontrolled chaotic spasms of energy" or something.
>You try to balance the weight, not randomly adding things that you don't fully understand their weight.
I wouldn't recommend adding magics whos weight you dont understand either, sounds stupid.
>It can be done, but it's not chaos magic if you know what will happen 100% based upon other evidence
That very statement shows that you seem to have an inherent misunderstanding about what chaos magic is, you dont get to declare what chaos magic is. Or, more specifically, if you declare it to be that way, it will.
> It's why demons and drugs can fuck ya up if you don't dose them right, in the right quantities, and proportions.
Why would you fuck with either demons or drugs if you were concerned they would fuck you up, let alone use them on someone else?
I honestly think that what weve got here is... failure to communicate. None of what you asserted about chaos magic is a fundamental tenant of chaos magic.
You understand that chaos magic is not: "randomly throw a bunch of things together and project energy to see what may or may not happen, randomly, because lolrandumb" right?
Every magic action is throwing a pebble in a still pond. If it's the same pebble, with the same force, it's more predictable. If it's a different object, you can't know what it might do. You don't know how the ripples will form.
I'm saying that, if chaos magic does work, by it's very nature of doing "something" it could ripple in ways that are detrimental to your goal.
Other traditions are in existince because of this fact. If you can't grasp the infinite probability that you WILL fuck up at some point in the future, then you are a dumbass, and we have enough dumbasses abusing magic for their own ends.
Say I summon money, it's utterly worthless if it can't get what you desire.
In fact, it's hurting you, because someone could have gotten what they did want, and then improve your life with their good-vibes.
Magic should be done at the top of the world, with the vision of the infinite one(s). Otherwise it's short sighted, and selfish, and causes sickness, that's that.
How can I do a spell that doesn't hurt somebody? I can't. You can't either. Living hurts things. Egotism and belief in superiority hurts things. And nobody actually wants to hurt things. They might want power, but power sucks if you get it. All magical traditions worth anything have the dire warnings of "Be careful what you wish for"
I'm not only speaking of chaos magic, I speak of all magic. Even prayer.
Getting what you want without struggle is bad for you. Like eating meat without ritual sacrifice is bad for you. Like having sex as free as your body wants is bad for you. Your mind is just another type of body, and magic is junk food for the soul.
Odin got screwed because of magic, Shiva too, Solomon also, and so will you.
>Every magic action is throwing a pebble in a still pond.
> If it's the same pebble, with the same force, it's more predictable.
assumption, considering this is magic were talking about, not physics, but Ill roll with it.
>If it's a different object, you can't know what it might do. You don't know how the ripples will form.
should we never throw pebbles then? every pebble is slightly different after all.
>if chaos magic does work, by it's very nature of doing "something"...
You could say this for all magic then, if it works, by very nature of doing anything, it could ripple.... etc.
>If you can't grasp the infinite probability that you WILL fuck up at some point in the future, then you are a dumbass
first of all, Ad-hominem is unnecessary I have not insulted you good sir. Secondly, what makes you think I am not aware of the possibility and treat it with methodical respect?
>Magic should be done at the top of the world, with the vision of the infinite one(s)....
who are the "infinite one(s)" and do you have their phone number? are you accusing me of being short sighted and selfish? You dont know the first thing about my beliefs or practices. Speaking of casting stones...
>How can I do a spell that doesn't hurt somebody? I can't. You can't either. Living hurts things.
debatable, only relevant to works done on others...
>And nobody actually wants to hurt things
That's demonstrably false in so many ways.
>They might want power, but power sucks if you get it.
That might be true.
>"Be careful what you wish for"
Im sure most chaotes have traditions within their systems that agree with this, I certainly do.
>Getting what you want without struggle is bad for you.
Highly debatable, but I tend to agree with you so I wont.
>magic is junk food for the soul.
>and so will you.
Oh! you're not oppposed to chaos magic, you're opposed to ALL magic. Why the fuck are you in this thread?
There are no others, dude. Magic is poisoning your sight. You are the others. You wouldn't exist without them being exactly where they were in your development, which still continues, even now. We're we, we're all collectively god, and there is no need for magic beyond that divine insight. I'm not saying all magic is bad, just like it's okay to do LSD occassionally.
But magic is separation. And compartmentalization. It's why you can't live outside if you want, It's why we suffer, and suffer from suffering. When we could simply be grateful in a way that transcends our limitations. When you bow to the universe with your heart, then you become limitless, you become magic. You lose all fear, all craving, and all ignorance, and gain something innumerable. You gain limitless being.
>There are no others, dude.
ok yes, one universal life force, I understand. Thanks for the rudimentary and semantics 101.
> We're we, we're all collectively god, and there is no need for magic beyond that divine insight. I'm not saying all magic is bad, just like it's okay to do LSD occassionally.
You are MUCH closer to chaos magic than you think you are I'm really not sure why you're lecturing me, you're halfway to being a chaote already.
>But magic is separation. And compartmentalization.
If you believe it is, it certainly will be.
>It's why you can't live outside if you want
speak for yourself chum, I can live outside if I want what are you talking about?
> When you bow to the universe with your heart.... You gain limitless being.
You are so fucking high right now. Much respect for that but brother, honestly, if you've ascended to this universal plane of all being and limitless psychotropic awareness and shit, why are you posting on a chinese cartoon website anyway? Shouldn't you be writing some emerald tablets or lighting astral fires on the rainbow bridge with super-buddha or something?
Why sit here and lecture me for having the audacity to say that chaos magic can be used for healing? If you believe magic can be used for healing at all, then chaos magic can be used for healing. Were shitting up OPs thread something terrible. If you dont have advice about OP's question, maybe you should ascend to the eighth dimension and do something super cool up there like cure cancer.
Dude, I am lighting astral fires with the super-buddha.
I have cured cancers before. (Cervical)
Both of these things are material problems in a material world. I'm material and living, so I am doing what I want on this chinese-cartoon website. Who's to say that our conversation isn't an emerald tablet to the ones who are ready?
I'm not on any drugs. But I am drunk on the smoke of a burning tower. This is bliss, 4chan is heaven, you are tathagata, dear reader.
Why go someplace else if you came here for the reason you are here? Bliss realms are great and all, but they are desire and expectation. I can sit here and scratch my ass and nobody cares, You'll read my post and accept my memes and I'll accept yours. We trade magick formulae and progress to whatever is next. Hail Chaos, the only orderly thing in existence.
Very well brother, i will listen to your counseling on said chaos topic, for obvious reasons.
>I have cured cancers before. (Cervical)
You might wanna call John Hopkins bout dat.
I'm honestly not even sure what we're even talking about anymore, somewhere along the line we lost lucidity in our conversation.
to recap I said that you can heal with chaos magic as long as one (or more) of your traditions beliefs or practices is capable.
Then you said a bunch of stuff about pebbles and ripples and randomly experimenting on people, and how all magic is harmful. I said "what?" and you said not all magic is harmful and then talked about bowing your heart to achieve transcendental eternity or something.
Then I asked why youre not surfing on the kool-aid sea with ghandi in the sixth heaven. And you said all that stuff.... so where the fuck does that leave us?
OPs question was: "Do I need to practice other systems before I can use chaos magic"
Before we slip totally into whatever chaotic and disjointed message youre giving us, has OPs question been sufficiently answered?
yes, good... the lord of change is pleased with this thread.
>chaos is jazz
fair enough, and I agree, but I think it sort of defeats your argument, there's lots of self trained jazz musicians. Knowing the classical forms (traditional ceremonial magic) will give you some of the tools to make your own music, but its not strictly necessary.
OP here. Thanks for your concern. I think I have my answer.
~ It's not mandatory to start w/ smth else, but it's kind of pointless if you don't have good base to start with and a frame of reference to start molding.
The remedy is to be self-aware and know what you're ready to face. Don't jump into the deep end of the pool because the book said to jump into the deep end of the pool. Jump into the deep end of the pool because YOU want to jump into the deep end of the pool because you're a ballsy as fuck chaos magician.
Not everyone is ballsy and not everyone needs to be. So long as you understand that what you're doing is real, you won't make a wrong leap. Use your instinct.
The problem and the greatest thing about chaos magic is that it has the greatest potential but also the lowest, laziest, idiotic, bottom feeder, retard entry level.
Guess which type of "chaos magician" there are in DROVES across the world?
You can make a very complicated constructed ritual/rite that has influences of the deep rich history of humanity and add more and more depth as you see fit for it's purpose.
Or you can make a Naruto figurine a fetish doll that you made to help you get laid.
Read, read, read.
>health is orderly.
Not under modern science. It's made up of billions of organic chemicals flitting around with electron clouds composed of literally complete uncertainty.
I'd recommend pretending to go into shock. If you can relate to that condition, you'll be able to see a way to use chaos magick for healing.
>You wouldn't exist without them being exactly where they were in your development
This is certainly not true for everyone, if it's even true for a majority of people, which I sincerely doubt.
Magic (no K, to deliberately conflate it with stage magic) is about metaphor and analogy. It is about inspiration and creativity. "Believing" that magic is literally real is the best way to destroy it, in the same way that believing that a fictional story is 100% true destroys its value and meaning as art.
In philosophy and science one examines ideas to test their correlation to reality, their consistency, and their implications. However these fields do not generate ideas in the first place. This generation is the realm of art and "magic."
Under an evolutionary paradigm art and magic is equivalent to mutation and genetic change, learning is reproduction, and critique and science is selection. Take out any component of this system will result in garbage.
To be a smart mutagenetic catalyst, one doesn't just go out and start making ridiculous connections and correlations between things like a stereotypical /x/ autist. Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.
>Who's to say that our conversation isn't an emerald tablet to the ones who are ready?
Yo. Universe here. Can confirm that, while this *IS* an objectively awesome conversation, it's nowhere near emerald tablet level.
>inb4the universe isn't ready to be the universe
>It's like grasping zero without a symbol.
That's honestly the only real way to grasp zero. If we translate out your symbolic ignorance, we find that you're actually advocating pretty severely for chaos magic.
>to deliberately conflate it with stage magic
10/10 post so far.
>inspiration and creativity
>% true destroys its value and meaning as art
>correlation to reality
10/10 for using my language.
>This generation is the realm of
>Take out any component of this system will result in garbage.
10/10 analogy. You are fucking locked in, anon.
>so you can break them like an artist.
<3 10/10 post would read&review again.
Long time lurker (2005), first time poster here.
Chaos magic is a discipline without original content.
It is not meant to contain anything.
When you go from playing classical music to play punk rock, neither is chaos magic.
The act of transitioning from one to the other is chaos magic.
When you take elements from classical music and punk rock to form your own music, this new music isn't chaos magic.
The act of putting the different influences together is.
It's actually quite upsetting to see practitioners of magic try to install "chaos magic" as a distinct school.
To chaos magic, there are two main approaches, that are required for the thing to even work:
Dissolve your current beliefs: Church of Eris
Assume any other belief you want: Church of the Subgenius
Fair enough :^) .
To answer your original question >>17323589:
Because I want to know. I want to gain more knowledge.
Your "if you don't know nothing then don't axe" is quite pointless. If you don't want to correct anything then pointing a finger does no good. (Doesn't do anything really...)
Never defend your ignorance while being a snot.
You're either able to tap into what you were told or you aren't. Failing to attain meaning because your ego got in the way and wanted to defend itself is a sure path to not learning shit.
It's kinda the point of the whole thing.
>Pull the wool over your own eyes!
The CoS embodies aspect of chaos magic that let's you believe what you want very well.
The key is to shill yourself where you need/want to be.
>But I ain't nobody's tool! Not even my own!
>I am free! FREE! You hear me!
Yeah, but you're also going nowhere with this attitude.
But you can always be a postmodernist you're-ot-the-boss-of-me babby and wallow in your pseudo rebel chic filth while insulting my 33 dubs of magical truth.
I'm not stopping you.
At this point I'm just laughing, because you will never know the joys of sales magic and time control.
Get some slack!
>"Bob" is a shill.
Well of course. You could die tomorrow.
You don't seem to understand. He is quite literally the L Ron Hubbard of chaos magick.
>XD I'M RANDUM LOL SEND MONEY JK LOL BUT IF YOU WANT LOL ALSO BUY IRONIC SOUNDS LOL PLS JK BUT YOU CAN IF YOU WANT I WAS A SALESMAN BUT THIS IS JUST FOR FUNS AND MOCKING REKIGION LOL pls send more money.
The original writing on chaos magic makes it quite clear that it is something that you can accomplish yourself.
Have fun in your LOL JK CHURCH LOL
>You don't seem to understand.
That's an ironic thing for someone to say to a Discordian, isn't it?
Simply tell us next time that you are autistic before engaging in useless debate.
It makes one wonder how you can navigate /x/ related stuff at all when you are completely unable to take something NOT literally.
But on the other hand, it explains so much.
Serious question: Why in the world would you think, that you are this one genius that needs to tell us that J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, Salesman, is a shill?
Why do you think you have some kind of special knowledge there?
I mean, come on, you know that we all should know exactly what you are trying to tell us, right?
>The original writing on chaos magic makes it quite clear that it is something that you can accomplish yourself.
The CoS tells you the exact same thing.
They just use shilling as a tool for everyone to use.
And nobody in their right mind sends money to them.
It's a thing called 'joke'.
It boggles the mind how you can be so full of yourself.
The whole concept of slack was made for people like you.
But yes, now that I think about it, many, if not most concepts the CoS deals with, are completely lost to someone with a certain degree of autism.
There's just too many layers of irony involved.
I think we should treat degrees of autism a bit like the degrees of freemasonry.
Not as hierarchy, but as steps of "not getting the joke".
>nobody in their right mind
So. It sounds like you're over-ly mad for literally no reason. This one phrase kind of undoes your entire attempt at shitposting/ego bashing/board culture.
That's up to you to figure out. If you can't figure out board culture, lurk more. Nobody's going to give you the silver spoon to communicating in the /x/ subdialect. It pains me that you haven't figured out at least that much by now. I shouldn't have to explain such a primitive sentiment.
>the silver spoon to communicating in the /x/ subdialect
>It pains me
>such a primitive sentiment
How do I break this to you?
Everyone can see that you are a bootybothered autist trying to act superior.
It's a quite basic thing in diagnosing autism.
So calm the fuck down and reflect on your behavior, instead of embarrassing yourself any further.
>For example you can play classical music, play the works of Beethoven to the perfection, every note in its right place and timing, and you'll be a classical musician. Chaos magic is punk rock.
Yeah but picture a classically trained guitarist who branched out into punk, vs. some teenage stoner who's never taken guitar lessons trying to play Blink 182 by ear. Who do you think is the better musician?