>>17240154 >I should be allowed to be a shithead without repercussions >I think people who take the lives of others intentionally or for sport should get a break >There's nothing wrong with committing sexual deviancy against others forcefully, even if it's children
heres the thing, if god is all knowing, then he will know when a person has TRULY learned the error of their ways, and has changed. The purpose of punishment is to teach a lesson a.k.a enable a person to see the world from a new perspective. accepting responsibility for and the consequences of your actions is an investment in your own integrity.
>>17240926 That's a great point, thank you. A good parent wouldn't abandon their child for misbehavior, they would do everything in their power to correct and "save" them, just as God is said to "save" his children.
>>17240154 You derive your ethics from emotional kneejerk. You as a mortal, constricted to mortal language (therefore thought processes), shouldn't bother trying to understand concepts and realms far beyond you which may or may not exist, let alone ethical justifications for the existence of such places.
>>17240154 >But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
>>17240154 Hell requires an overt refusal to admit you are sinful. Any attempt at redemption, any request for forgiveness is enough to save a soul from Hell. Like Purgatory still ain't great but it's a process of gradual spiritual purification until you achieve salvation.
>>17242751 No, the version of God you believe in isn't justifiable. It's probably because, being flawed and human, the god you've invented necessarily reflects your own weaknesses, but regardless, it's a flawed, unjustifiable being. For instance, your "two destinations" line doesn't work. God should have made more alternatives. It's unjustifiable that God didn't.
>>17242870 >>17242870 >>17242870 There is a bunch of shit "they" are hiding from us. Think about all these fancy fraternities with all the secrets, they have the power over regular mankind because of all the occult secrets and elite order of the magi...
And Jesus is still the Saviour, but there is more to it than base Catholicism/Christianity, and there is more to it than "becoming God" and "killing God"...
The "Astral war" isn't two sided, it isn't between just Yahweh and Lucifer, it isn't two sided.
You can still be free while being devoted to God, but you have to actually understand what God is and which God you serve.
>>17242870 Why would you want to worship a guy who made you to be a slave and then send you to eternal suffering if you displease him. Because that's essentially what it boils down to. Like if that's the best answer you've got, I'll just go to hell. At least there'll be some good company.
This is a problem among teens in the US who have been raised in oppressive or abusive evangelical environments. They actually believe that there personal beliefs reflect absolute universal truths and are genuinely confused and even irritated when the facts are explained to them.
The fact is that no human in the species history has ever shown the capacity for knowing absolute truth. Anyone claiming such has invariably just been shown to be someone with no grounding in philosophy who doesn't comprehend their own limitations. In short, they're people who have never examined their own thoughts or beliefs once in their lives. In the case of evangelicals, it's because intelligent introspection is actively, aggressively discouraged.
All versions, all interpretations, all notions of "God" are personal beliefs. And none of them are demonstrably absolute truths. Just personal beliefs. And this is true of literally every human being in existence. To not understand this, to argue that no, your beliefs aren't even your beliefs, is just proof positive that you're an isolated, poorly educated person who's never thought about these things, that you're woefully behind most of the human species when it comes to understanding even the basics of your reality. You are further from any truth, like God, than most other people.
This is the realization that seeded my departure from Christianity.
How could someone commit so much evil, in their short 0-120 year lifespan on earth, to warrant an ETERNITY of suffering?
Take even Adolph Hitler. If you were to hold him responsible for all the millions of lives lost in the hollocaust, totalling the millions of years of life and experience, the total sum of life lost would only be a spec of dust in the wake of eternity.
>>17242989 John 15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. ...
You presuppose that because God manifested Himself to us in three persons, the trinity, that there are either three Gods, or that Jesus is not God.
You need to at least apprehend this thing we call the Trinity; One God, revealed to us in three persons.
>>17242954 Even what we "know" can turn out to be wrong. You're dumb enough and self absorbed enough that you're actually trying to say that this is true for everyone and everything except you and your beliefs. And you actually believe that, which is what's so sad and childish. I'm not kidding, your particular infliction you're suffering there isn't new or even especially unusual, it's just a demonstration of a person entirely unwilling to really think about their own beliefs.
>>17242973 Jesus didn't say anything. Some people told you he said something and you decided to believe it without evidence. And now you get angry and hostile, despite Jesus telling you not to, whenever someone points out how weak your belief is.
What's amazing and sad is how much of what Jesus supposedly said you ignore. It's not just that you're dumb, it's not just that you cling to a belief you've never really thought about intelligently, it's that you don't even really believe it. Ultimately, it's just a smoke screen for your ego. /x/ Christians are the worst kind of Christians, belligerent young idiots angry at the world and hoping that Jesus will somehow validate their bitterness, without ever bothering to read what Jesus actually said on the subject. Your suffering is your fault. Not ours.
>>17243024 No one had to "teach" me that objective truth is not attainable by the limits of the human mind, that's easily deduced by watching humans. And if there is an absolute truth out there it's almost certainly that anyone claiming to know the absolute truth is full of shit. There is literally no person in the world less trust worthy than some moron claiming they know the truth absolutely and objectively. Such people are either uneducated, ignorant retards scared of admitting they're wrong, or lying conmen trying to trick you.
>>17243009 I wasn't talking about modern day. Why would a good man from feudal China go to hell if he didn't believe in Christ? I know the Catholics think he wouldn't have. I think they have some kind of rule about it. Protecting the innocent or something. >What makes you think any of us deserve salvation? Well if any of this is true then I'd say living a good life would lead you to salvation.
>>17243010 Christ never said there was eternal damnation, so what's your problem? It's pretty obvious there could be no eternal spiritual damnation for acts committed in a temporal, physical universe, especially one where we don't make the rules.
>>17240154 I agree, but sometimes the punisher just wants to banish the sinful instead of bringing them to the light. There are enough Christians who believe that you can be forgiven for anything, so just be one of those if you're losing sleep over it.
>>17243063 >>17243072 "Worse, you're not even helping out, you're just sitting there being a judgmental prick. Unbelievable, god, what kind of crazy, fucked up trip are you even on? Because it doesn't fly."
>>17243058 The God of Abraham is the Father in the Trinity, he is the godhead, the manifested cosmos, he is the power and glory and violence and beauty and intensity of all manifested creation. So, yes, he would seem cruel and callous by some definitions, as at that time he had not entered our lifestream in the form of the Son. When it came time for him to enter into our world in the form of the Son, a new relationship with him was created, which is why Christ often said that the old laws have past, that the Sabbath that we used to look to in the external cosmos had now been born amongst us in the flesh. It is also why he said "none shall come to the Father except through the Son," because now the power and the glory and violence and creative might and, yes, cruelty and intensity of the Father, had been incarnated on Earth as a man.
>>17243063 >And what if you were told by God that nobody lived a "good life"? >That there is none good but God? That the standard is to be perfect, as God in heaven is perfect? >What then? Well that really depends on the context of the conversation and the situation I'm currently in. >Chinese dirt farmer 600 years ok. You're fucking crazy >Me modern day to a Christian with his head up his ass OK >Me to God after dying Why are you doing this? Stop bullying humanity.
>>17243098 All of that is completely ridiculous. Why should I be punished for what other people did? That's not just, that's idiotic.
Everyone knows the Bible, most people here better than you do. The point is that the Bible depicts an irrational, malicious being who is not just or good. And here you're saying, "but don't you understand, he wants to punish you, for all eternity, for the crimes of other people and for being what he created!" And somehow in your crazy, fucked up mind, that seems OK.
>>17243108 Actually the OT has to do partly with an inferior creator God, but through His prophets the actual God speaks through His prophets, you can see where the demiurge in OT is there and when they arent.
I doubt you know the Bible for than a preaching Christian, even if they never look into Gnosticism
>>17243122 That's unjust. I didn't commit Adam and Eve's sins and God could make me spiritually alive without me having to do anything. that he doesn't is unjust. You keep trying to blame me for god's fuck ups. That's really dumb. But then, you also blatantly lie about people even though your God told you that was a sin, so I don't think you really believe in this god at all.
>>17243131 More lies. You call anyone disagreeing with your dumb ideas "hostile to god." That's a lie. You don't believe in Jesus and you're not a Christian. You lie about other people too much to be either.
Christians don't lie about other people. You are lying about me, over and over.
>>17243123 >Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
>or if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,a putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the fleshc and despise authority.
>>17243155 And that's that. For those actually versed in the Bible, Jesus says, specifically, not to act like this asshole fake Christian is acting here. Don't run around calling people the spawn of Satan for not agreeing with you. No actual Christian does that, ever.
This guy isn't a Christian. Don't listen to him for advise on Christian theology. As you can see, he has zero actual interest in behaving as Jesus said a person should. He's just an angry, irrational egocentric and that's all.
>>17243077 Souls, not spirits. A branch that doesn't bear fruit is indeed taken away, but that must be understood properly. It is akin to the extinction of a race of people or a species of animal what he is discussing throughout that chapter. It is not the eternal spirit he is discussing. There are many in this world who do not have a spirit, their spirit is unable to take full control of their nature, their soul, their nephesh; those souls are indeed threshed away as chaff, they're burned away as might a race that has outlived its usefulness (to put it in a slightly blunt way) be burned away. Do we mourn the loss of a race? Not really. We just know that races must pass away to be replaced by other races into which spirits can incarnate. That is how all references to hellfire and damnation and so on must be understood, as the cleansing away of imperfect soul vehicles, not eternal spirits. God cannot eternally damn a spirit; the spirit comes from his own substance. He would be cutting off his own limbs to spite his face, so to say.
>>17243189 What is a person? What makes up a person? To what extent is a person the product of his race and his time, zeitgeist, his/her gender, his religion, the beliefs he inherits from his family, his country, his region, culture? Do you see how many different energies play into each man? Within that cosmos of energies is the man's spirit, his I Am. Should his I Am not be able to triumph over the varied energies that make up his soul, that soul will be burned away and that incarnation will be almost as though it never happened. We see this often; there are many around you whose souls offer very little to this world. Indeed such souls are burned away utterly. But a spirit is never burned away. All this confusion began with one of Catholicism's stupid ecumenical councils where they removed the concept of the spirit from the bible, leaving only the soul and body. Man is not only soul and body. He is spirit, soul, life-force and body.
>>17240154 Here's how one can always distinguish a good Christian from a bad one.
1. Good Christians are humble. It's never about them, it's about god and other people. They don't get angry when you disagree with them or doubt them. Luke 18:14 - "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
2. Good Christians are wise. They realize that just because they believe something doesn't mean it makes sense to everyone else. They don't bully or abuse others with their faith, but are always polite in sharing it. They definitely never call others children of Satan. James 4:11-12 - "Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?"
3. They are charitable and kind. This is in both deed and word, for it reflects love for others. John 13:34-35 - "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
4. True Christians are not boastful. They don't claim to speak for God or pronounce that they know god's will. Matthew 6:1-3 - “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward."
Now, contrast this to the actions of these /x/ so-called Christians. Dead opposite.
>>17240909 The reason that this concept doesn't apply to Heaven and Hell is because they exist outside of time. Once we perish, we are out of time, forever and ever. We no longer have the ability to make corrective course on our misgivings and trespasses.
Hell is a) a place without God and love whatsoever (as it depends on his grace which require his presence) b) a place in the presence of Satan c) a place in the presence of the damned d) a place in the presence of all demons
People like to say its a place in the mind, and in a way it is. For a while, it will just be a place where one is tormented by the arguments of demons as to how easy it would have been to escape that reality with minimal effort, how terrible one was on earth, how low one is now, how it will go on forever, etc. The damned are also tormented by those around them, perhaps their enemies in life, perhaps their friends. Just think of the people you like the least, forever close to you, forever spouting their bullshit and excuses in your ear. You can choose to be quiet but you cannot drown them out. What may be even worse is being in the presence of those who were once true friends or as true as they could be, forever blaming and shaming you, showing the ugliest aspects of their souls. Just think of divorce court or friends getting nasty with eachother. You can't escape this. The presence of every single other damned soul makes your experience worse and worse. Moreover, your intellect is honed to the point where you can't ignore any of this and you can't deny the truths the demons face you with.
Finally, going back to the full intellect, you cannot escape the true nature of wickedness on earth. Even if it was entirely things our culture approves of today (prostitutes, drugs, birth control, condoms, and apathy) you will realize how shameful your life was an how much of a little fool you are for laughing at Christ's sacrifice for us.
>>17243284 There are some basic problems with this:
>>17243284 >The reason that this concept doesn't apply to Heaven and Hell is because they exist outside of time. This is literally made up. There's no basis in scripture or theology for this. This is fan fiction, pure and simple. But you're trying to pass it off as fact. That's a sure rational failure, and frankly pretty obviously dishonest.
>>17243284 >you will realize how shameful your life was an how much of a little fool you are for laughing at Christ's sacrifice for us. "How much a FOOL you were for DISAGREEING WITH ME!"
That's literally all that whole schlew of words boils down to.
The first step to becoming a meaningful Christian with anything to say worth attending is to give up claiming you speak directly for god, or that your ideas = god's ideas. That's not just wrong, it's a hubris the Bible says you are neither capable nor worthy of.
>>17242960 What makes God so special, though? There are countless people who sacrifice more for less. Think about the Bible story of the old lady who donated a couple cents and the rich guy who donated a fuckload. A fireman who dies in order to save a single child is more worthy of worship than Jesus. He just 'died' for a few days and then came back as the literal king/prince of the universe. What sacrifice is that? There is no sacrifice; he didn't give up anything.
>>17243222 Honestly, I hope I fit most of those, but I slip up sometimes. We all have our ups and downs. I remember how I felt when I was an atheist and how stupid I thought Christianity was so I always try to keep that in mind. I think where the bullying comes in might be from not being able to convince people of a truth that is so clear to them and that they feel deep in their bones. Also there isn't good Christians and bad Christians. Maybe good and bad humans, but we're all children of God and brothers and sisters in Christ (that's just my belief)
>>17243317 By bad Christians I mean people who don't actually really believe in Jesus or Christianity at all, but only claim to for ego-social reasons.
It's like this : Some people come here to talk about demon summoning and spell casting and Crowley and whatevs because they think it's funny. And some people come here to talk about those things because they actually think there's something there and find it interesting. And some people come and talk about those things just to feel self important, to try and get people to think they're smart and superior.
Most of our /x/ "Christians" are that latter category for Christianity. They're not actually interested in Jesus at all, they're just interested in trying to get people to treat them as wise authorities on the subject for ego purposes. That's what I mean by bad Christian, but yes, it pretty much translates straight across to, "obnoxious, misguided, self centered human."
The thing is, most people that don't like these /x/ christians here have no problem with "Christianity" as a whole at all. Or god. Or any of that. The debate is about how these guys are ignorant assholes.
See, if someone says there's a flaw in one of their ideas, they immediately scream, "HOW DARE YOU DISAGREE WITH GOD1" They always do that, claim that disagreeing with them is really fighting with and denying god. It's not, it's just disagreeing with them, but they'll lie that arrogantly.
Same with hating Christianity. If you say you dislike their ideas and behaviors, they'll lie about you and claim you hate Christians and Jesus. That's also false, (and yes, a lie,) you just don't like their take or how they lie about you when you say that. That's all.
And of course, then they start calling you Children of Satan doomed to hell. They're just assholes, not Christians.
>>17243304 It's the fact that he is an eternal being responsible for your creation and is responsible for everything you have if you look beyond your immediate surroundings. Also being crucified is no cake walk my nigga
>>17243339 So what? If I had had that power, I surely would have done the same. Except, you know, made things just a tad more comfortable. I also wouldn't have been narcissistic enough to demand that people worship me.
Really though, crucifixion is temporary and literally nothing when compared to the existence of a 'timeless' being. If it would save all of humanity then I would submit myself to an unending crucifixion. Sorry, Jesus, but your deeds really aren't all that impressive.
>>17243334 Okay I see what you're saying. Yeah some of these Christians get a little tiresome. I think some are just blinded by passion though, and yeah some might just be on an ego trip. I actually kind of like to go toe to toe in a religious/spiritual conversation based on logic because sometimes I think it shows that believing in God isn't completely illogical, maybe slightly though. I also feel like these fire and brimstone dudes do serve a purpose though because they often know more about the bible than I do so I like to hear them. But I understand how they come off to atheists. When I was an atheist my brain would just shut down when someone starts talking about the bible
>>17243358 lol. Okay, see you when you get their, brother. You have a literal metric fuckton to learn. Sorry if that doesn't sound humble and in keeping with the tone of such a thread, but your post is super fucking ignorant. Read anthroposophy please and your bible again. We are the I Am. It's the point of the entire bible. Jesus Christ, how far we've fallen.
>>17243379 Again, so what? Okay, He's the only one who could have done that. Since He's omnipotent and timeless, why doesn't He let me do it right now? Just transfer the weight of all of humanity's sins onto me. Make me go through the pain of crucifixion. I don't even want His power. He can keep it. I don't want recognition for it. Everyone could hate me and I still wouldn't mind. I haven't prayed in years, yet I'm doing it right now, offering Him this opportunity. I want nothing in return save for the happiness and protection of humanity. Do I think I'm greater than God? Absolutely not. I just don't think He sacrificed much of anything.
>>17243426 So then God can make me perfect. Perks of being omnipotent, right? Besides, I'm trying to make a deal with Him, so I don't see why it would matter that I'm not perfect. If anything, the fact that a less-than-perfect being would be willing to make such a sacrifice should make it all the more worthwhile and special.
>>17243426 Dude why can't you chill with that shit? He just literally doesn't understand. I was at that point in my life too. Sure I may have been a little wicked but it wasn't on purpose it was just out of not understanding
>>17243370 I love theological discussion and I also love perusing through mythical and religious texts. I think one of my problems it that in the non-digital world I'm spoiled. The religious individuals I deal with regularly are by and large intelligent, educated, thoughtful people who can have constructive and insightful conversations about faith, theology, etc. I find the childish, hateful, ego-centrism trying to pass for genuine spiritual thought among these fake /x/ christians especially distasteful and insipid.
>>17243447 God can make you perfect, with your consent. That's what being saved is all about. You take off your righteousness, and God places upon you the righteousness of His Son, Jesus Christ.
While He is the Almighty, He will not do that without your consent. You must say out loud that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. Do that, and you will be saved, redeemed, sanctified, and eventually will be glorified.
>>17243435 Im not him but I think it's just someone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior. That's why I said earlier there's no good or bad Christians. There's just Christians. It's like the good brother and the black sheep of the family. They're both children of their parents and loved equally
>>17243463 I definitely don't want to be glorified. I just can't agree with anyone going to Hell, ever. Or deep unhappiness in general. So I'd like to sacrifice myself for them. For anyone and everyone. He's got my permission to do that, no matter the cost.
>>17243478 Forever is a length of time, so you just negated your own claim.
Look, just...you know...you said something stupid, off the top of your head, with no validity. Stop trying to shoehorn it, just admit you said something without justification. I mean, goddamned you people and this petty inability to just admit error. Seriously, you look dumber fighting this hard to avoid it than you'd ever look just admitting it.
Yes, you want to buy a trillion dollar diamond the size of Manhattan with your dirty little penny.
It's not going to happen.
You're just another false messiah. Sorry. There are many like you. There will be many more. You cannot save anyone; you cannot save yourself. You can only turn to Jesus to save you, because He is the perfect Lamb of God.
>>17243510 The things of God are not known to the children of satan. Instead of allowing me to demonstrate that he knew nothing of Christianity, much less what constitutes a "good Christian", you felt sorry for him and provided him an answer he can ape.
>>17243300 Honestly, I'm not enough of a theologian or apologist to answer this objection. I don't know that it has no foundation in the bible, although I imagine the second coming of Christ is referred to as the 'end of time' in at least one instance. Taking a literal understanding of the bible, we are forced to confront something we don't understand. Consider it, I guess. And if not we can agree to disagree I suppose. It doesn't matter too much. The point is that Christ said the worm of conscience never dies. This implication of an unchanging state, both for the righteous and the wicked is fully consistent with the end of time.
Getting on to the second portion of this response: I think this is a bit more asinine and honestly a bit childish, intellectually speaking. I'll respond though.
I wasn't trying to say that those who disagree with me are necessarily wicked (although they often are), I was just trying to typify an element of emotional torment the damned experience. Some, being faced with the now eternal choice they made to mock, ignore, or blaspheme Jesus, will find this unbearable when confronted with the simple truth that he was the greatest, most honorable, and most powerful man who ever walked the earth. On top of that, he was sacrificed to recompense for their sins and they find themselves in a state unable to utilize that sacrifice anymore. In that sense, they are a waste. "It would have been better if he had never been born."
I don't do this to claim to speak for God, and clearly am not really espousing any particular ideals. I'm pointing out an unbearable mental pain which is suffered by many who refused to confront their hubris.
>>17243531 But again, this "hubris" is apparent on all sides, both those who think the idea is wrong and those who think the idea must be right. And it hearkens back to the OP's original point, what is all this punishment over hubris? Is it just? Can a god who won't even speak to people directly, who only appears to communicate through the flimsiest of proxies, justifiable in then declaring that a failure to heed these unreliable sources constitutes a hubris so grievous as to warrant "timeless" suffering? The answer is, of course, no.
>>17243518 You've just made my point for me. Mark 12:41-44 I'm willing to give everything I have, everything I am, in order to achieve this. God may have given more than I possibly ever could, but when compared to the scope of what He has, it's nothing.
>>17243534 Watch the video, idiot. Being able to name every aspect of a set doesn't make it finite. See, it's not just that you're ignorant, it's that you're so resistant and hostile to information, to curing your ignorance.
>>17243572 Jesus hasn't come to me. Some people without any evidence claim he did that two thousand years ago.
Imagine, for a moment, that every Wendys in the entire world had a major problem with, say, their meat shipments. And they look to corporate headquarters for a solution. And corporate says, "everyone who doesn't solve the problem is fired."
So the people ask, "well, what solution would you suggest?" And corporate replies, "What are you talking about? We sent one guy to the Wendys in Joplin Missouri back in 1934! How has that not cleared everything up for everyone?!"
When I say, "why the fuck isn't god talking to us directly," and you reply, "dude he sent ONE GUY to ONE REGION 2000 years ago, that should be enough," you prove conclusively that you're a goddamned idiot.
>>17243591 >I don't waste my time with things that contradict the bible, and contradict common sense. Alright, you're trolling now. Adios, asshole. Thanks for coming to shit all over /x/ and the people trying to converse here.
>>17243606 >You want to talk hubris? You want Jesus to make a special appearance, just to you? Is there a higher hubris than that, to demand to have God Himself at your beck and call? If god is going to condemn anyone to eternal suffering, and he is just, then he must talk to them personally. Refusal to do so is unjust .It is inexcusable, it is unforgivable. It would also be petty and condescending, not traits I associate with god, but definitely traits I would assume a petty person would ascribe to their made up god.
Your god is a bad god. But again, that's probably because you're a bad person who has made up a bad god that reflects your own failures as a human.
A good god, a just god, a god worthy of worship would never, ever sentence a person to eternal torture without confronting them face to face first.
>>17242756 Hell is best understood not as the torment that God designed for the wicked (although it's true in a sense), but the terrible, terrible state they find themselves in when they make themselves fully incapable of ever being in his presence. This is of course worsened by the eternal presence of all other wicked people and demons.
>>17242765 While I do believe that my birthright is to be forever damned, and most people have probably sinned gravely against God, and goodness is only possible through God, some people are very, very good. They are a force for Jesus and His Father here on earth, bravely telling the truth everywhere they go and bringing souls to him.
>>17242899 God our Father desires to raise us up as his sons. Satan wants to raise us up as cows to slaughter and consume. Although the dark side presents itself as 'cool' and 'truly free' it is this path that leads to slavery. Think about it; drugs, sex, pornography, prostitutes, abortion, violence, lies, corruption, cruelty, rape, violence. All of these things lead to a life that is >controlled by a massive desire to fulfill selfish wants, disregarding everything else >constantly in damage control, inclining one further and further into sin or some such.
The life that Jesus lived leads to true freedom. Intellectual freedom, the freedom to become who we are truly meant to be and to use our talents on wholesome, fulfilling activities. Every other path leads to some form of slavery, where our options seem ever narrower. The truth is, anon, they are not. We can save ourselves with our very final breath if at last we acquiesce to God's plan and admit our wrongdoing.
>>17243584 So why can't my offering my eternal salvation, limited though it may be, wanting no worship or gratitude in response, to pay for the sins of others, over whom I have no control, in the eyes of Someone other than myself (God) show more compassion than God's temporary visit to earth in mortal form, during which he suffered a short few days of physical pain before returning to omnipotence while demanding the worship and unfounded faith of all people in exchange for forgiveness of the sins borne of the imperfections which he placed upon them and which go against the rules which he arbitrarily created?
>>17243633 >Hell is best understood not as the torment that God designed for the wicked (although it's true in a sense), but the terrible, terrible state they find themselves in when they make themselves fully incapable of ever being in his presence. This is of course worsened by the eternal presence of all other wicked people and demons. The "No Exit" version of hell. This at least has both some theological bearing as well as being able to be rationally reconcilable with a just and good god.
>God the Father is here on earth. >He posted here on /x/ a couple times >Christianity follows fake practices and has removed all traces of the Spirit from its religion >The whole purpose of Christianity was the Holy Oil, which is the Holy Spirit. >Sinning has nothing to do with which the church teaches. >What you consume is your sin. The false prophet has run the religion since the dark ages. >he hs one eye and controls all the media food supply and government s of the world >All plants and herbs of the Spirit have been persecuted against and banned in countries. >God the Father has gone out into the wild until the final winter and final war start, at which point He will return 'You can sin against Myself and be forgiven, you can even sin against my Son and be forgiven. If however you sin against the Spirit, there is no chance to be forgiven.' God, the Father. God only fears the Spirit, that which makes Him God.
>>17243642 We all get to judge but sadly, you keep claiming that you're god. You're not. All that's being judged are your ideas. And all you can do is lie and keep claiming you're God.
That, more than anything, demonstrates that you're not a Christian at all. You keep declaring that you're God. That you speak for God. Your hubris, your sense of self importance, is the antithesis of Christianity.
You're not God, anon, and every time you lie and claim that someone disagreeing with you is them "judging God," you assure that if there is a hell, you'll end up there.
>>17243635 >So why can't my offering my eternal salvation You do not have eternal salvation, and if you gain salvation, you can never lose it, or even give it away. Ever. You become a new creation in Christ Jesus.
>limited though it may be, wanting no worship or gratitude in response, to pay for the sins of others All of their sins have already been paid for, by Jesus, on the cross. Yours included.
>over whom I have no control, in the eyes of Someone other than myself (God) show more compassion than God's temporary visit to earth
He's always been here, is here now, and will always be in whatever form He remakes the earth.
>in mortal form Would you, if you were God, leave heaven and be born poor white trash?
>during which he suffered a short few days of physical pain Jesus suffered more than humanity combined. I want to reiterate that.
Jesus suffered, personally, more than the collective suffering of all of mankind for all times. To understand this, you must understand what it meant for God to become Sin, and be forsaken.
>before returning to omnipotence He never left. He could have walked off the cross, walked away from Pilate, called 12 legions of angels, whatever He wanted to do.
So what He wanted to do was to die for our sins. So He did.
>while demanding the worship and unfounded faith of all people in exchange for forgiveness of the sins borne of the imperfections which he placed upon them God created Adam and Eve to be perfect, and immortal, with His Holy Spirit living in them. They blew it, and died. And so you were born dead.
>and which go against the rules which he arbitrarily created? God's Laws are neither arbitrary nor violate.
Stop trying to earn your own salvation, and consent to be saved like the rest of us who are saved.
>>17243672 He posted that video, and those verses from the Bible about how to be good. You seem to be shitting yourself over him, like you have some old grudge you want to fight about.Just looks kind of stupid to me.
>>17243683 Well, that's sort of where I stand regarding the above concept that hell is just existence without the presence of God. While a sounder argument than any given prior in this thread, it still doesn't seem that bad. I've apparently gotten by this far without basking in God's glory, it's pretty nice. An eternity of this? I'm on board!
>>17243543 They will find their hatred multiplied when they can never be near him again for eternity. It really is a bit telling, isn't it?
>>17243556 Well, I would start by saying that some of course purport to be godly men either for the sake of money, sex, or power or simply in spite of their hedonistic desires. Let's not confuse them as being on the good team, even if they are a bishop or pope.
With that exception out of the way, I don't know that hubris is apparent on both sides. While of course few will fully extinguish their selfish, worldly desire (be it for power, love, or how they're perceived) I think it's fair to typify the good side as actually trying to do this. Think of Mother Theresa, for example, or look up anchorites (fem. anchoresses, those who literally entomb themselves alive in a church to pray unceasing until death). In Christianity (although not exclusively) there is an incredibly rich tradition of truly sacrificing all that one would naturally desire to obtain things only for God and the good of one's fellow men.
I want to propose a new way to think of Hell to you. I know some of this was in my initial reply, which you read, but to expound:
Hell is not a place God wants us to go, ever. If he had his way, no one would ever go there. People find themselves there because they have rejected his vision for their lives. In doing so, they are unfit to coexist with him, and with all good people, permanently.
This is a possibility for us because God respects our choices, he respects our freedom to choose our destiny. In a way, Hell isn't an inherent place of torment. The torment that abounds there spews forth from its occupants. Granted, the utter lack of God's presence makes it utterly unbearable, but this is what people choose for themselves when they reject his goodness throughout their lives. How can they live in the fullness of his presence if they can't respect women on earth? The latter is far easier.
>>17243701 This all goes back to God's failure to communicate. If you want a behavior from someone, you cannot communicate only through unreliable proxies. You can't only send one voice every few thousand years. You can't rely on a a reprinted and edited text even older. you can't rely on other humans known to be dishonest and unreliable. You have to come and discuss what you want with people directly. Otherwise there is no sane reason for them not to just ignore the message.
Look at the people here, like your own snide little "a bit telling" comment. Most of the people cheering for Christ here aren't intelligent. They have no good theology or reasoning. Their knowledge of the Bible is even weak and largely self interested. They're rude, they're dishonest, their arrogant as fuck. There is quite literally no reason to believe any of them have any insight into the nature of God, heaven, the universe, anything. Any god relying on them to spread its message is a cretin, it's as simple as that.
God MUST communicate with us its intentions and it can't justly do that through people who are lying, ignorant assholes. That is an objective truth more coherent than anything else said on this thread.
The best way to think of this is through an image, which I think is also literally true.
Jesus' face, both on Judgment Day and when we meet him at our death, will look exactly the same to both the just and the wicked. However, the just will perceive him as being the absolute embodiment of love, truth, hope, righteousness, and justice. This justice is perceived so differently by the wicked. For though they will be unable to look away (for a time) he will appear to them to be so incredibly angry and judgmental that they will have no option but to flee from him.
Honestly, it sounded a bit better before I put it to words, but the point is that we are conditioned by what we do here. Those who have sacrificed everything, and are fully ready to be with God, will stare longingly into His face and want to be with him immediately.
Those who sacrificed something, or at least who recognized the error in their ways at some point, will long to look in his face but find themselves incapable to really take it all in. They're not ready. Although they know it will be suffering for them, they deeply desire purging fire (Purgatory) to make themselves clean and ready to be with God forever. (n.b. Christians who don't believe in Purgatory, I'm not ready to discuss that now. Clearly this discussion is already getting incredibly broad. Feel free to tell me but I won't be taking you up on it)
Finally, those who were so wicked in this world, who in the final counting truly did nothing meaningful except for their own sake, will find themselves unable to look at him at all. They will run away from him so quickly, knowing where they are going.
While you may choose to disagree, I'm just illustrating the concept that Hell is a destination people choose for themselves; the fulfillment of their actions. It is not a place he desires anyone to go.
>>17243722 I'm seeing two different main points here that I'll address separately.
1. If God wants us to be righteous, why doesn't he simply tell us; directly, clearly, constantly?
2. Christians are imperfect
1) This is a logical counterargument that I once found quite persuasive. I also thought of it myself, no one (no person at least) ever introduced it to me. And on it's face it is quite damning (so to say) to the concept of God's existence! If he despises to see us look at demeaning images of women, masturbate, and spill our seed, why doesn't he simply say, >ANON!!! PUT THAT AWAY! WHAT DID I TELL YOU LAST TIME??? Hearing this in a booming, bodiless voice would certainly be quite helpful for those trying to be righteous, and a good reminder that he exists and that the bible is true.
Why does he allow atheists to exist? If he desires to know and love all of us, why doesn't he do it now?? When he sees people starving, suffering in a war ravaged country, why doesn't he offer them some consolation, if not simply rescue them somehow?
Simply put, I don't know. I will try to explain, but the imaginary God who acted this way could still be fully consistent with respecting our free will.
The first thing to highlight, and to know, is that the law of good and evil is written on our hearts. In a moment, I will use BDSM to illustrate this. Also, the truth is fully revealed to us, forever. Jesus didn't die just for those who knew him or who are Christians, the fact that he died and justified the lives of Jews and Gentiles who predate him proves this. He died for those who sought him, whether or not they knew what they were seeking.
Knowing the direct truth of Christ is a tool of ours to battle the dark forces counteracting his army of angels. It is not a requirement. An important thing to consider here is that on Judgment Day, no man will be able to say that he did not get a fair trial. They may bemoan the outcome, but they will be unable...
Quickly on the BDSM subject. We may be able to condition our minds to think that it is ok; to ignore a clear impulse or rational logic that it is sick and twisted (whether actually performing the acts or viewing pornography), but we can never truly deny that it is wrong. Just look at it (actually, don't. think of it. but not too graphically). It debases women incredibly. There is no good obtained, aside from the fleeting good of pleasure. One day, the curtain will be lifted, and we will be able to see what we've either known or ignored for so long. Again, I'm using this example of conscience to illustrate that the law of good and evil is written on the hearts of all men.
So I've tried to provide some insight into how this isn't unfair, but I need to address why God would choose to have it this way. Simply put, this world is a trial. It is a crucible. It is a great play in a sense that will tease out our true natures and our true desires. God didn't desire to make this so easy for us. Nay, those who suffer the most are often the closest to him. Still, the truth, the consistent Truth of Jesus is available to those who seek it, regardless of how old it is. It is preserved to the end of time in His Church. This world (by which I mean the Universe) could go on for another 50 billion years of men, and I guarantee you that until the very bitter, bitter end, good men will be guarding and freely telling the Truth of Christ to those who are willing to listen.
2. I want to address this second point quickly and simply since the first one seems vastly more important (and admittedly longwinded). I'm sorry that Christians aren't perfect. Not all are smart, or knowledgeable, and I'm sorry that some of these have let you down and wronged you in the past. I'm sorry that some may have mistreated you or ganged up on you in this thread, although you've been a bit incendiary. None here are perfect....
>>17243722 >>17243884 some Christians can be judgmental. Some who claim to be Christians are even rotten to the core. However, Jesus often uses the small, weak, and feeble as his instruments. Do not look down on them, and hope they don't look down on you either.
Regarding my comment, I will make no apology for it. There is no need to feel any compassion or sadness for or regarding the damned. They are beyond saving. I was speaking from one believer to another about the irony that on one hand, their souls are consumed by a hatred for God (a true and full hate) but on the other, they hate him because they cannot be with him. Perhaps you don't believe this is the case, but think of it as if you do, and it's quite some mental gymnastics they do down there.
Anyway, perhaps we've exhausted this, but I'll check it out again in an hour or two.
>>17243902 And you lose again. You have couched disagreement with your human, limited interpretations as hatred of god. It's not. That you can't get beyond that clear lie shows not just a problem with your theology but your inability to deal properly with people who don't agree with you. You refuse to stop creating straw men out of such a position.
You don't understand, God doesn't want anyone to perish. He made a way for you to be righteous enough to go to heaven and live in eternal paradise. Christ died on the cross as a perfect expression of His love for you and simultaneously as a show of how much He hates evil. If you spend your entire life not realizing how wicked we are and rejecting Him, you have no place in His kingdom and you chose hell. You have free will, but this is still His creation. He loves you so much that he doesn't even care what you did, He will love you and make you His child. How could you turn that down?
>>17244438 Why does it matter who said it? What, because some guy a long time ago came up with it, it's inherently more profound? More truthful? Did they have a more direct means of communicating with higher beings back then?
Well heaven is just a state your soul waits in until the resurrection, such is hell.
After resurrection the reward for people that are saved is eternal life in biological body without pain, suffering, disease in the universe in a restored state. For people that don't get saved it is the flames that will come after resurrection from Christ.
>>17240909 >heres the thing, if god is all knowing, then he will know when a person has TRULY learned the error of their ways, and has changed. The purpose of punishment is to teach a lesson a.k.a enable a person to see the world from a new perspective. accepting responsibility for and the consequences of your actions is an investment in your own integrity.
Hell isn't punishment.
It's the only other place to be except for Heaven, if you willfully choose to separate yourself from God.
It's your call. Not His. And once made, when life ends, there's no turning back.
Free will doesn't exist, people act/think the way they do because of pre-ordained genetics and unavoidable life experiences. Everyone is a slave to their timeline, so no one is culpable for anything they do, though that doesn't mean they shouldn't be stopped. God would be an idiot to condemn a pedophile to eternal damnation if he made that goddamn pedophile the way he is.
>>17244738 One could argue that God knew a person would be a pedophile before he even exists. Therefore, it is God's fault for bringing a pedophile into existence, and therefore, God should receive the punishment for child sex abuse.
the people disagreeing with op need to realize what eternity really means. he's right. that's waaayy too harsh of a punishment. you should get chances of redemption at certain points in your punishment
>>17245047 Punishment doesn't even make sense. There are humans on this planet right now who are more forgiving than that, more forgiving and reasonable than this wrathful petty God.
It's bad enough that he flung us into this eternity without our permission, then he expects us to grovel for him until we decide his dick is delicious, die, and go to heaven so we can stare at him forever. Amazing, what a practical plan. But if you don't like this miserable existence you have no choice in? pfft, go have your skin torn off every 5 seconds before you're dipped in acid and have a corkscrew shoved up your dick for an indefinite period of time no doubt infinitely longer than the life you experienced sinning on earth, ya heathen. But he also saw that coming and its part of his plan. Don't question it, just do what the church tells you.
I really don't like to think that this makes sense to someone. How could you wish anything so horrible on any living being on this planet?
>>17245335 This is why I have no respect for Christ stains. Why would you willingly believe in something so vile? The only answer is if you're a sadist or completely mindcucked. The analogy of Judeo-theism being North Korea in the sky is an underexaggeration.
If you're a "liberal" Christ stain and reject hell or the centrality of believing in exchange for eternal reward, you've basically admitted that your belief is entirely based on feels and wishful thinking, you're picking and choosing what you want to be true. In this case you are intellectually dishonest to yourself.
>>17244500 Goes to show catholics are just a religion of pseudo justice and fear. Hell is there to reassure you what the bad people get, and its honestly just ridiculous and many christians cant even grasp what a concept like eternal damnation is. A couple shitheads even desire it upon others, and I doubt they would be far behind.
Once your able to develop something like sympathy a little more you might be able to see how most atrocities commited are a result of one before it, now apply this to the first sin. God sends people to hell for repercusions of this, every thief acted out of lust or necessity, every murderer killed out of hate or fear. You may want to observe just how much of "sins" commited result from one before it, its literally a chain to a certain point, and each of us rides it out differently. The idea of this fair, benevolent, merciful god, is probably one of the biggest lies in all of human history.
Spirituality should not be bound to an organization, but should be something everyone can individualy develop through all the texts, books and studies we have. Its your perception of the world and if you allow it to be shaped for you, you will never be anything more than an insignificant sheep.
>>17245335 A realistic understanding of "hell" really tells you it's a Jewish supremacist fable at heart. It's where the goyim go when they die, literally. They used to throw non-Jews in a pit at a valley called Gehennom. This teaching evolved from that to a underground torture chamber ruled over by Satan. Even that is highly questionable, given the nature of "Satan" as a biblical figure. The mix of mythological figures that compose this mythos is quite complex to say the least. You'll probably ignore this post or lump me in with the fedora humpers. I don't care. I'm just educated on the points of Christianity.
>>17246130 >mindcucked Stop. Just stop. Deal with points, not your silly little autistic memes from a Mongolian snow eating forum. Endless torture is bad, but that doesn't mean that's all Christfaggotry has. I mean, Christianity is an old religion. It's been around for a long time. There are good strains of it and bad.
Religion has no argument left. It's been destroyed in the realm of philosophy (72% of academic philosophers are atheists) and science (religious claims are completely disregarded by science, except as a social phenomenon) and increasingly relevance in the modern world. Religion maintains itself via hegemony, which has broken down over the last decade. Before the internet, one had to actively seek out books or periodicals skeptical to religion, now a whole mountain of arguments against religion is just a few clicks away. Accordingly, atheism has grown tremendously in developed countries, and especially among those who are tech-savvy.
All you have left is the fedora mockery, which is laughably hypocritical as you ignore the funny headgear obsession that religions themselves have.
>>17246212 Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. That's a really long ass way to say "what's up my nigger" but whatever. Yeah, it's a hood. I kinda wish people knew more about that kind of thing, but we can't change the world today. Too many stupid people.
>>17246216 You're retarded, you know that? It is a Jewish supremacist idea. They even added the shit about baby sacrifice to the goyim to make them seem more evil. The whole terror of Tophet was basically from that alone. Hell is a Jewish fable because it is part of a collection of Just-So-Stories from that religion and it's bastard children. No, I will not go back to /pol/ because I triggered you. Fuck you.
>>17246326 They want to be "rebels" or something. They have a name on an Anonymous imageboard. Not a tripcode though, since they are slightly less faggy. Still faggy though. The atheist shit is just a part of that.
Children with down syndrome, autism, and internet retardation.
>>17240154 I agree OP, It's a strange concept that a human who lives roughly between only 0-100 years, their fate for eternity will be based on such a minute amount of time in existance. Not saying it's false but Christianity never made sense to me, when broken down, not one bit of it seems to follow any natural rules that govern the multiverse. If "as above so below" holds true then shouldn't these laws be easily enough ascertained?
>>17240154 There are people that truly deserve such fate, people who manipulate and destroy other people lives just for personal gain without remorse, rapists that keep raping even after being released, people that murder when robbing simply because they felt like it and so on.
Depending on states of karma dictates where we go.
Reincarnation back on Earth in a human life is like saying your last life you didn't finish your goal.
Ending up as an animal means you either desired the body or because you did something that made you into a "lower" form of life.
Hellish planets are reserved for the extremely wicked and cruel.
While God plays an essential role, so do we. If we go to hell, it is because of our own decision to do so, either because we deserve to suffer there or because we have to free souls that have been dwelling there.
Heaven would be a higher state that is no longer physical and with God and can go even beyond the cosmos and past empty space into something that is completely spiritual.
>>17242844 Way too cut off a discussion with "im insignificant and I can barely grasp what I believe in".
The comfort in not understanding isnt for everyone, there are people dedicating and giving their lives to the goal of advancing human understanding, are they not playing cards they are dealt? If your way of thinking had its say in the world we would still live as poverty stricken farmers and workers for kings and emperors, cause all we can do is play the cards we are dealt.
Jeez you must be arrongant and atleast in your 50s to have that view on life, from a different time.
>>17246669 Shush now. Your childish and aggressive interpretation of God isn't even popular among the world's Christians.
That you can't even converse about this stuff without becoming hostile, insulting and aggressively irrational demonstrates just how weak your belief in it is. You're not a spiritual christian, you're just a cultural one., a member of the club, and man do you hate outsiders telling you that the club rules are stupid. The trouble is, most Christians no longer even belong to your club. Because it's really hard for most adults to cling to a theology as simple minded as the one you present.
Eternal suffering is unjust. That's all there is to it.
>>17246673 The road to damnation is wide and many travel on it. I have neither insulted you nor acted childish. I gave you some wisdom you refuse to hear. Then wished for your salvation. I will pray for you.
>>17246684 You don't have any wisdom. You're not a wise person, nor do you have any insight into God, the afterlife, spirituality or even the Bible. Hell, your quoted verse was actually just a condensed version of my own recommendations for how to spot a good Christian (vs. people like you who only use the name Jesus to justify their egos.)
You're not a good Christian. You're an angry kid blaspheming the name of Jesus.
>>17246669 It's true, atheism and moral relativism put people on seperate agendas. Atheism being that they don't seek a relationship with Christ and moral relativism that people do extremely evil things sometimes with no moral code to even justify themselves besides "what's bad for you, good for me"
Each life is subjective, however there are Absolute conditions even if we can't calculate them with "science" haha.
>>17246673 Eternal suffering wouldn't be unjust if it was truly deserved, but if the mass of people show compassion towards eachother, the act of forgiveness might "shorten the sentence" of a "hell plane"
Trying to diminish ones spiritual experience isn't cool though, you only see one aspect of his "club" here online, putting a label on the whole crew isn't any better than having a whole label put on yourself
>>17246693 According to the Bible, it was vanity. But the stories and tales go back further than that. The people that describe Lucifer as either the demiurge or in opposition to it, the lead Gnostic are, it pains me to say, not wrong at least insomuch as those ideas have an established history. Other, older versions of the myth include a disagreement about perfection. Lucifer was the first to ask, "why would a good God allow bad things to happen?"
>>17246693 Depends which Lucifer, you have a few deities that have been associated with Lucifer that they melded into one.
Lucifer "makes himself like the most high" and "sits in God's throne" which takes away God's worship. Also likened to the King of Babylon (ancient Babylonian Illuminati conspiracy kek become a god) traces back to an early religion, and by denial of Christ, they set themselves up as gods.
Also, garden of eden, which is like trying to choose sides when your friends are arguing, because the apple is more than what it is in the Bible, the whole story is just so much more than someone's opinion on it.
>>17246695 All humans are moral relativists. Some just lie about it, that's all.
When you can show me the objective source of morality, and I mean show me, not just allude to an unsubstantiated fairy tale, then you will no longer be a moral relativist. Until then, you're a moral relativist. The only significant defining distinction is whether you're honest about that, or a liar.
>>17246666 I like your view of levels of mind and soul, dont agree with it but its a way that is based on the logical hierarchy of things, and thats okay in my book, but I think that the same way there is a god level, there is another level not for basic consciousness like that of humans, not for the typical murderer and rapist, but for things more like demons, that may begin their progression from human to demon to hell in this process of self corruption we do here. Its more of a ying and yang, not like the god level is the supreme one, but the highest level in one side of a balancing act between two powers.
But I appreciate seeing these more intricate beliefs here beside all the argument and blind belief.
>>17246701 He believed he was the equal of god and he rebelled against gods command. You are following that same road. The only person being hostile here has been you. Why does the word of god make you hostile?
2 Tim 3:1-7 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
>>17246716 No I am stating what is said in the bible take that how you will. Life isn't fair no one ever said it was. Hell is a real place where those who refuse the knowledge of god go. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings but the bible tells you how not to go there read it. I wish you luck on your journey may you find the narrow path one day.
>>17246705 I agree that we all have different levels of morality, but there are certain aspects of morality that have Absolute quality.
It is hard when not referencing any scripture, so blowing it off as a fairy is just "as bad" as accepting it.
We all could agree killing somebody for no good reason is bad.
We could agree that wiping your butt is essential.
We could agree that human life needs air to breathe.
These are examples of Absolutes, discrediting scriptures isn't going to help either side agree because you have to see the science of the soul and it's direct relationship to God in other sources alsooutside of the Bible in order to get into this conversation, to understand morality that is Absolute.
>>17246721 You're not God, anon. You're just one person with an unpopular and not widely held interpretation of a book you clearly haven't studied that thoroughly. You're not God. All you believe in is what you believe in. And people not buying your interpretations aren't defying God.
You aren't God. You are not the voice of God. Stop claiming you are.
>>17246713 That isnt the word of god, that is what primitive man believed of god. Its a book about interpretations, old stories twisted and changed by time, please stop preaching word of men.
The people of now have the bible restricting their concept of god and creating an old image of what the concept of god used to be. If anything the change in pace from the first to second testament should be enough for you to see our view in god changes and becomes more complex, instead you blind yourself by the thoughts of men who had just discovered how to write and read.
All I is you stop being stupid asses to each other, and recognize people have different beliefs without wanting to blow them up or envision them in hell cause your beliefs were implanted into you by a mix of fear and love.
>>17246725 Those aren't examples of absolutes. Those are examples of things to "the best of our knowledge."
We already have examples of where one of your "absolutes" may not be absolute. And not everyone agrees with your notion of killing, as the world has demonstrated.
And for you it's hard to reference an absolute morality without referencing Scripture? Less than half the world even holds scripture as spiritually relevant. I think you're really proving my point there.
>>17246706 Thanks anon. It's just for understanding.
You have someone say "hell isn't bad" and brings many people to hell by getting them to do bad things.
You have someone say "there is only heaven and hell" then you pretty much say you know it all but really no one on Earth can properly explains what happens and where we can go when we pass away.
I do believe in a Highest God, and I believe man can achieve a plane of divinity to recognize their relationship to God in order to understand the potential answers to their questions about spirituality better. Because on the internet your just gonna make people feel bad about what they believe
Absolute Truths are not based off of moral relativism. Each human is subject to their own experience with choices to calculate their own morality, however the Highest Absolutes that are beyond human cognition exist.
You need all the qualifications to make life, alive, otherwise, it does not come alive. The condition to create a living entity needs an Absolute variable in order to function.
When it comes to morality and scripture, denial of the scripture does not make your stance any more "absolute" which is the problem with the present day. Moral relativism says that religion doesn't mean anything and by denial of "religion" and scriptures, that it makes their stance more "true" because it looks "objectively without religious principles"
>>17246736 If anything you should understand where non believers come from with their hate in your arguments of hell, christianity would be such a beautiful experience and would be so much deeper if it could abandon the concept of hell and see it as the corruption and purity of your own soul. Instead of telling those who dont see it your way there is a spot in a burning pit waiting for them to check in for the rest of eternity.
I also dont really care for dedicating too much thought to what happens when I die, i dont enjoy developing a further fear of death. What happens after, no one knows and all we can do is carry an idea of what might be.
You must also recognize that man is constantly changing and evolving, both mentally and physically, and that due to this his ability to reach or grasp God may be unfinished and still developing. Pls dont be a creationist tho
>>17246741 You just claimed that something you cannot perceive or conceive definitely exists. Why in fuck's name would you say something that baseless or ridiculous?
Then you go on to make the most ridiculous straw man attack on "moral relativism." Beyond it not being a unified front or argument, no one claims that an idea is "more right" because "religion is wrong." I don't even know where you got a notion like that, but I think my use of the term fairy tale was well applied.
>>17246746 See, this is where many Christians might find me heretical? I do believe in Hell, and a lot of people are going there, but rather than say "You are going there because you don't agree with me" it should be "here is something to consider about the longevity of your soul"
Christ doesn't give up on disciples and many Christians are condemning people.
>time to spread the good word >your going to hell
All people could go to "heaven" or at least not go to hell if they aren't serious offenders, that makes sense. God gets it, there is no way He doesn't understand the differences between each of us.
As for creationism, it is likely the "god" of the material world tries to keep us here and is a well guarded secret of our time.
>>17246746 It's important to remember that a majority of Christians no longer adhere to those concepts of hell and punishment. This is one of the problems with a lot of the "MY BELIEFS ARE WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS" god-wannabees here. They keep claiming that what they believe is definitely and absolutely the truth of what scripture says, but a majority of those who have read that same book and believe in its divinity don't agree.
Most Christians on this planet do not hold the beliefs or interpretations of these /x/ "Christians." That alone demonstrates the relative subjectiveness of all of this.
>>17246772 That's another example of God being irresponsible and unjust. It's also an example of where you're making things up; you don't know the mind of god but you're claiming you do, and you're claiming it to try and justify your own beliefs.
But, and this is most important, when I say fairy tale, I'm talking about your beliefs. You're making the same mistake others are, trying to elevate your thoughts above the realm of, "just your subjective beliefs." But that's all they are. Just your subjective beliefs.
In this context, it doesn't matter if there's a God or not. What matters is that your interpretation doesn't hold any water. It doesn't make sense and if that's what God is really like, then that's a pretty crummy God. I wouldn't worship that God. Most people don't worship or believe in THAT God.
>>17244500 lol i never asked for this shit. you wanna crumple me up, chuck me into a material existence where people never stop fighting over who's right, nothing is explained and all is permitted, then dare to make judgments based on how i handled it? you don't get the right. and if God does, then I must be God, because no one judges me but me.
>>17246764 Well as far as I see it there are other forms of consciousness beside us would go to hell, in that case. The way I see it most "sins" strand from a wrong or a sin done before it. An action for there to be a reaction, so if you can look at the creation of heaven/hell, light/dark from view like say that of division, like the idea of the big bang in a way. God would be one at the beginning, he would then divide his "energy" between thing like matter and its eventual development into life, with the division of "light dark" either coming in at the beginning or as a way our development became opposite or mirrored. This system along with the infinite number of stages in our development you get the actual wicked and the actual good, both of which are not human, but manipulate and influence us. Those are those who are stepping towards hell, we are just a past stage in what was their development.
>>17246787 Anyone can get to know God. It isn't for us to call Him out on His own "mistakes" when we are supposed to be trying to perfect our self.
It also depends what your conception of God is because not sure which entity you think God is, because there is way more to knowing God than what is in the Biblr, though, Christ does give us the Way, And is the Way to understanding the basic attitude God has after the OT (whether or not OT god is God or not and which boons He is God amin and which books reference a different deity)
It matters if God exists, I never seen the narrator of the Twilight Zone in person only on a screen, I can't say he doesn't exist, even though he is on a TV screen.
So many people wrote about God on different languages, why would you discredit God of that is the case?
I get why you have your stance, based on what you believe, and because you believe it, then subjectively it stays true
>>17246783 No one from outside the belief system would view it like that, and thats not the source of its birth, the source of the birth of that concept is logically that of hate and a desire to right wrongs, equivalence. But there is a lot of hate in that concept and its quite plain to see even though its been toned down.
>>17246817 Idk. I used to be like that too, and still can be. It's like "holy shit man I could go to hell because I seen a vision of how fucked up of a person I was, and I see you there and I just want to help you" but they come off as "your gonna go bye bye in hell"
The want to help, it just matters how you direct your energy that's all
It really depends how they are trying to send a warning to you
>>17246838 Outside of belief im speaking of the birth of the concepts, lets say these concepts were taking shape from the time on moses forward, he had to lead people and he had to gain trust and the will of the people, we can say if this is the case the concept of heaven comes first, gaining followers and providing people an idea of the virtues the belief would lead to, the for control of violence and social doctrine and law you have the concept of hell, and its saying you could/would/lose a chance at heaven. This example is just for the purpose of debate, but honestly if you basis to believe, if all you envision for your beliefs is concerned on what happens after death and not actual understanding after that, das p stupid mane.
Also we have to acknowledge, all this knowledge we have is the knowledge and word of man, none of god.
"The modern day alpha male is never spotted without swaging his fedora and vape, with an enlarged mass to catch females in orbit. This highly developed intelligent creature trades off brawn for edgy views of the world that often disregard, fail to grasp and alienate opposing beliefs"
I like the part of that story where "God" told homeboy he better grfo of the city cuz the nukes are coming to so he and his two daughters and wifey NOPE the fuck outta there buy wifey glances over her shoulder and gets turned into a pillar of salt for being such a dumb biatch. If biblecucks need more context its right after homeboy had a traveler come stay with him, and he is a good homeboy so when the city dwellers came to rape the poor travelling motherfucker all night homeboy is all like "naw man don't rape this absolute stranger, rape one of my daughters instead. After homeboy and his two daughters get out of nuketown (minus wifey) they be cave dwelling Fallout style and the two daughters start growing up and get homeboy (their fucking legitimate father BTW) wasted so they can bang him trying to get prego. This is forreal. This is from the bible. Blowing up cities and raping daughters all night and banging father's and shit. This is just one families experience. Yeah keep praising the Lord, Hallelujah!
>>17246911 Explain how believing in Christianity or another other religion is different from believing that Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings are real.
Oh, that's right, you can't. All you can do is sputter about fedoras like every other Church Stain idiot. The moment you try to support your religious claims, they'll be torn to shreds like they are everywhere Christmonglers try to justify their crap.
I was truly blessed to have agnostic parents, and so I was never indoctrinated in religious nonsense.
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