Up for solving mysterious today /x/?
I present you,
The Mysterious Hinterkaifeck Murders.
In Germany, 1922, the murders of six people at the Hinterkaifeck farmstead shocked the nation. This wasn’t just because of the gruesome nature of the case, but also because the case was so incredibly weird, and it remains unsolved to this day. Over 100 people were interviewed in the murder, but no one was ever arrested. No motive was ever established as to explain the murders. The previous maid had left 6 months earlier, saying the home was haunted. The new maid arrived only hours before the murders. It is believed that the perpetrator(s) remained at the farm for several days – someone had fed the cattle, and eaten food in the kitchen: the neighbours had also seen smoke from the chimney during the weekend. This photo depicts one of the victims as he lay in the house barn.
So, what do you think really happened /x/?
There is believed to be paranormal activity.
The maid said the house was haunted.
The its highly implied that the killers just vanished and no one(out of 100 people) knows a thing.
Not OP but I think they were bludgeoned & stabbed to death. I remember reading that the 6 year old daughter wasn't quite dead when she was dumped in the barn with the rest of her family and laid beside their corpses picking away at her hair & scalp.
A few days prior to the crime, farmer Andreas Gruber told neighbors about discovering footprints in the snow leading from the edge of the forest to the farm, but none leading back. He also spoke about hearing footsteps in the attic and finding an unfamiliar newspaper on the farm. Furthermore, the house keys went missing several days before the murders, but none of this was reported to the police.
Exactly what happened on that Friday evening cannot be said for certain. It is believed that the older couple, as well as their daughter Viktoria and her daughter Cäzilia, were all lured into the barn one by one, where they were killed. The perpetrator(s) then went into the house where they killed two-year-old Josef, who was sleeping in his cot in his mother's bedroom, as well as the maid, Maria Baumgartner, in her bedchamber.
No paranormal activity. Just some guy that hung out and killed a family. We'll never know exactly who it was since the place was demolished and no forensic evidence was taken from the crime scene.
Copy and pasted source
Schlittenbauer was the neighbor who was also paying child support for one of the children who the town thought may have been born of incest. He's on record as making odd comments at the crime scene, and his wife said he was out working in his barn all that weekend (aside from eating and sleeping.)
Means: easy access
Motive: he was paying child support for a kid who might not be his. OR since the town had decided it was his since he'd be the only surviving relative, he'd inherit the farm - the animals being fed and watered.
Opportunity: He was their neighbor
It was probably some creepy psychopath he stayed in the farm for a few days before killing the entire family then probably left the town
So I doubt the family knew the attacker or attackers..
I wanna know how he managed to get them into the barn one by one
I think the perpetrator(s) lured them into the barn by telling each family member there is treasure or something that's hidden in the barn or that something horrible had happened in the barn. Either way, the attackers were successful in their scheme.
They probably didn't have a problem forcing the six year old into the barn...poor kid
Im still trying to find sources on how it happened
So far I think its just some creepy psycho who stalked them for many days before killing them
maybe an asylum patient
There have been many cases where strangers and others (homeless people, crazy people, obsessed exes) have lived undetected in other peoples' homes for periods of time.
Whether in the attic, under the floor, in the wall, etc. And many of these cases have ended in murder, rape, arson, and so on.
The footprints leading up to the house but none leading away gives me the impression that somebody, probably a drifter, had broken into the house for food and shelter. This is supported in my mind by the strange newspaper and the footsteps in the attic. Then for some reason (maybe he was discovered by a member of the family, or he was just a complete sociopath and did it for shits and giggles) he murdered the family.
Insofar as how he managed to lure them one by one into the barn though, I have no idea.
>small town in the early 20s
>father sees footprints in the snow around the house
>also thinks theres somebody in his fucking attic
>doesn't do anything
>whole family gets whacked a few days later
pretty obvious it was some vagrant that was wondering the countryside, saw a house, scoped it out, killed everyone, lived in it for a few days getting well fed and rested and then took off before anyone came looking. Case dismissed
Heres a better one
this actually had a list of plausible suspect and motives, most of which seem to be business related to the father
some people are just fucked up and don't give a shit. Not everyone killer is some master mind with an evil plot and backstory
He saw them as expendable for his personal gain and he expended them
One time when I was a child I heard some freaky shit going on in my attic at night sometimes I saw something peeking out of the attic and looking at me as I walked pass it and told my dad
My dad started hearing that shit too and thought it was some raccoon he worked long ass hours in carpentering
as time went by his guns started going missing
cops were called...etc
One day we were all eating and we all heard a noise louder than a raccoon could make in the attic
so my dad climbs up the attic armed with his hunting rifle
it turned out some creepy homeless guy lived up there for almost 6 weeks
He had my dads other guns a knife rope...etc
That fucker was gonna try too kill us
>mfw we moved out the same day and never found the guy
You have awoken my inner /k/...
Why the fuck would your dad climb up into an attic with a hunting rifle? He didn't have anything shorter and more appropriate for tight spaces? Furthermore, what kind of rifle was it? I'm judging by the rest of the foolishness in that story that it was a bolt-action of some sort. That's obviously the best choice for a small space you have to climb into and you don't even know where your target will be in that space.
I doubt he was a homeless man or a mental asylum person.
He was probably a farmer muscular knew how to use a pickaxe
I'm sure the police interviewed the murderer but had a strong alibi I assume there were other people as well to lie for each other
Clearly a rifle can fit in an attic...
That doesn't make a hunting rifle the correct choice for ascending into a tight space in search of an unidentified target whose location in the attic is unknown.
I hadn't even made mention of the fact that the unknown intruder was likely armed as the father climbed into the attic with his very poor choice of weapon. Bearing in mind that the intruder was probably armed makes the whole thing even more foolish.
No, fuckface. Did you even read the story, cunt.
>A few days prior to the crime, farmer Andreas Gruber told neighbors about discovering footprints in the snow leading from the edge of the forest to the farm, but none leading back.
I dont fucking know maybe he didn't care?
Maybe he wasn't an expert in close combat
maybe that was his last gun because that nigga homeless guy stole most of em?
go back to /k/ bruh
we like are paranormal here
at least the lucky bastard was sleeping and didn't feel much...at least according to the autopsy
I feel bad for the daughter though
She got rekt'd pretty bad
"lower jaw shattered, cervical injury due to shock, severe head injuries. Skull was smashed with several blows and her neck revealed a wide gaping, transverse wound. On the right of her face was a circular wound. Her face was smeared with blood. In her cramped right hand fingers were hair pieces"
What is reading properly.
She pulled hair from her mother's head I believe, possibly was lying close enough to touch her mothers head/hair, and pulled her hair out of desperation. She was only 6 after all, and dying slowly.
You probably can't think very well if you're near death.
especially when you're six years old
she wasn't raped right?
What would you have done? Remember, the son and father have both been hearing shit for ages, guns and stuff go missing, then at some point, maybe during dinner or whatever, you hear loud thump from the attic. By this point you are almost certain there is someone in the attic, with your best guns.
What do you do?
I like my paranormal too, bruh. But the paranormal and common sense aren't mutually exclusive.
Furthermore, this story has nothing to do with the paranormal. This was a nigga living in the attic and stealing things.
Now I have to wonder...if he didn't care, why did he climb into the attic anyway? He must have cared about his family or his house or something. And if he isn't an expert in close combat, he must at least have some knowledge of firearms, considering that he owned a few.
If he was a hunter of some sort, he should have been well aware of the significance of picking the proper weapon for the job. There's a reason big game hunters keep large caliber sidearms when they're hunting. Because if you get bumrushed by some very large and fast animal, that big-ass rifle isn't going to help you. You need something powerful, yet maneuverable and can be fired rapidly.
There's also a reason carbines and such were given to trench fighters, and SWAT teams and the like use short submachine guns.
Running into a close quarters fight with a long gun is foolish. Even more so considering that the dad in this story had time to plan everything he was doing. It's not like a gunfight or home invasion suddenly happened and he was forced to use the closest weapon he had and that turned out to be a giant fucking hunting rifle. He had time to consider what he was doing.
And if all he had was this giant fucking hunting rifle, he probably shouldn't have even attempted to go up into that attic. The family in that story is lucky they didn't witness daddy getting his head blown off.
Call the cops, or get a better weapon, or, honestly, if you knew for sure that the person was in the attic at that moment and probably had several weapons at this points...
...maybe just GTFO of there and don't play games with this guy who is in a much better position to kill you on your way up the stairs or ladder than you to kill him.
I know think that the killer realizes she wasn't dead, and pulled her away from her mother before ending her life.
She grabbed her mother as she was pilled away, then the killer smashed her head in. Because this>
Cause of death was to be shock from blood loss
I've been reading links you guys have been posting so far theres many theories
If the gradnfather at that farm heard nosies in his attic why the fuck didn't he contact the police?
Yeah, fair enough. I really didn't mean to derail anything. I was just struck by how poorly thought out (at least to me) the father's actions were in that story.
So nevermind me, carry on, good sir.
You really trust the backwater town doctor/mailman/horse whisperers opinion? Especially when this>>17237486
Does not sound like a death from shock from blood loss unless she was like Chuck Norris
Killer was interviewed cops just didn't realize they interviewed the killer because there probably was more than one killer and each killer made the same story
"yeah I saw him there"
"yeah he was here with me"
"yeah we was camping out in the woods/fishing at the lake"
and this was a crime of passion
this means the killer...the leader was very very angry or all of the killers were very very angry at the family
Now im not an expert so I'm not going to say why the killer (I assume killer and not killers because there was one set of footprints) was hiding in the home perhaps to scout the home?...I'm not sure.
The reason they stayed in the farm was too make it look like the family was still alive
Remember that neighbor was paying child support for one of the children right?
Incest was believed involved
The killers were for some reason very angry at the family
Does anyone have hints or clues on the reason for this?
Its why they were killed and who the killers are you wank...
also theres a million theories on how they were lured into the barn
But it was over. I let it go. Why did you even address it again?
They wasted their time investigating 100 random people
thats the mistake
They should have investigated someone who knew the family personally
family friend, ex family member, relative, etc.
It wasn't a random vagrant, psycho asylum patient..Because if it was they would have killed another family again...
This was a one time personal killing
I dont understand why the children were killed though...must have been one angry son of a bitch..
I also dont understand why they stayed in the farm for days instead of cutting and run.
Just as I got finished getting high...
You're such a buzzkill anon now im depressed
Hell, I'd stay there, if not because ghosts, then at least to say I slept in the same bed someone got axed in
Exactly what kind of figures are we talking about here? I am intrigued.
AYY I didn't think anyone this close to me came on here. And before anyone asks, yes, I have been to the house. No, I did not stay the night. It wasn't very spoopy when I went, it was daytime.
it was probably just a drifter who got the bright idea to hide on top of the roof. walk about every so often then leave come back another day do it again
the maid thought she heard foot steps in the attic. if you have ever heard a roofer working on your house it sounds like they are in your attic when they are not hammering shingles and just walking around
if you are on some ones roof and they walk around their house you can avoid being seen by hiding on one side of the roof. if their is a chimney it would be easy .there is a chimney on the house
eventually the drifter decides to kill the people who live there after they feel comfortable knowing the area and if people come to the house or not
>gathered my family
>gotten any kind of weapon
>quietly leave the house
>come back with the police and or armed and angry mob of my neighbors
Ive read before on home invasions and understand how some people are literally suck between a rock and a hard place with choices but for fucks sake he heard and saw reasonable signs of an intruder and he just sat on it. and if we're talking it was me and my house, my guns are locked away save for an emergency 9mm I keep on the fridge, so my plan is the same. As soon as stuff started going missing im clearing out my attic or coming back with some friends
even with forensics of today its no cake walk. So many people watch CSI and think for every crime they find a mountain of evidence, put it in a super computer and it gives you an up to date picture of a person plus his life story
>who kills people randomly
spree killers or serial murderers. If you want a conspiracy theory type of murder look into >>17237356
whole thing smells of a dirty business hit that went too far
so then why do we have unsolved murders stiil? Because if you study real true crime and criminal procedure its not easy. We've come a long way but its no point and click theres your bad guy case closed type of deal
I do study behavioral science and psychology actually...
I'm hopefully trying to get into FBI BAU
We cannot exactly find 100% who did it but we can find prime suspects
Heres what we know so far
>the murders were a crime of passion.
The killer(s) knew the family and violently murdered them out of rage, envy, jealously etc... We should look for a family friend, family member, relative, exs, steps, in-laws the neighbors didn't see a thing besides smoke coming out of a chimney?...Yeah right in daylight they were feeding the cattle someone had to see someone that doesn't belong there
>no money was stolen
means robbery was ruled out and it wasn't a random attack
You dont butcher a child or slaughter people for their money
>why were the children killed tho?
Blind rage, hatred, etc...
That person must have been extremely angry or just lacks empathy or both
>they were lured one-by-one into the barn
Speaking that it wasn't with force this just backs it up even more that they knew the killer
>maid leaves the farm claiming it was haunted
This is a little suspicious...just because you hear nosies in the attic doesn't make your house haunted the maid may have played a role into the murders for an unknown reason
>they stayed on the farm for days
Okay this is also creepy...and much of the time a random killer wouldn't stay in an unfamiliar home for that long unless they were comfortable and knew the layouts or lived there
>interviewed 100 people
Its likely they may have interviewed the killer(s) but wasn't aware.
if they planned on staying in the farm a few days this might explain why the children were killed as well
Motivation: Wrath the maid/wife(not sure which) had an ex husband correct? im sure he was interviewed however tactics back in the 20s were not as good as they are today
They had a neighbor named Schlittenbauer whatever his name is spelled
He was paying child support for one children there not sure which
and the child was born out of incest
This guy was a neighbor who KNEW everything about the farm and the family ironically he saw nothing for days and days...Covering his own tracks?
If the person had nothing to do with the neighbor it might seem more believable that he saw/knew nothing
with only these shit clues I cant figure much out
There was a witness report however..I dont know all the details all I do know is that the witnesses reported Sigl and Pöll were behaving strangely and acting suspiciously, infact they had no reaction no emotions when they saw the piles of bodies of people they were close too
Even the fucking kid that was torn apart in the barn...
Now if this were surely a random psycho killing he would have probably killed another family
one-time killing thats usually passion
Why is it hard to believe people study psychology?
Everyone loves psychology
I'm only 2 years in so I dont claim to know everything
Im not arguing any of that. What I do believe is that people take for granted how a lot of crime investigation goes. whether or not the crime happened in 20s or 2016, its not a guaranteed easy case even with the advancements in forensics. Shows like CSI or the thousand other carbon copy police procedurals make up a lot of stuff for the sake of a show, and people think that's how real police work is done
The daughter was fucking her dad, pretty much everyone knew that. She then began a sdxual relationship with the neighbor (I believe), who then was accused of being the father of her youngest, which he did fight in court staying that Viktoria had admitted to also sleeping with her father during that time. I believe some type of bribe was made to the man to recant his statements of incest so the father would be released from jail and therefore the burden of the illegitimate son was placed on him, forcing him to pay child support. I can only guess he later killed the family in a fit of rage. It seems the most fitting scenario to me but it also doesn't account for some of the other random pieces, i.e. the news paper.
Just some thoughts. Forgive the crappy formatting. On a shit phone.
No no i'm agreeing with you
I'm just saying today's criminal investigators could probably pick up the case and figure shit out and get more logical theories behind it
I mean obviously we cant get DNA or scientific evidence like you said...
But it can be brought back to life
Lol I didn't see that
I just clicked reply to the lowest post i didn't check till now...
yeah good job...If a bunch of retards online can figure out who killed them Im sure today's german police can figure it out
anger for having to basically acknowledge a child that wasn't his and child be believed was born out of incest while he was also fucking Viktoria? Jealousy, disgust, anger... he basically said he felt the child was in no way his so he had no attachment to it. During a psychotic break maybe he wanted to wipe the entire family from existence.
Either those or a psychotic break down and he wasn't thinking right
besides those motivations I have no idea
Its hard to find a motivation behind killing a child and toddler unless the person was very mentally ill or a pedophile for sexual pleasures
the best we can do is speculate it. It could have been the neighbor for all those reasons, it would have been a WW1 veteran with PTSD, it could have been a hobo that just didn't give a fuck. I get your point, but especially with these old ones its mostly just guess work
Well, the two true crime stories I'm most interested in right now aren't paranormal, but IMO the killers are really creepy, both stories covered by writer Jerry Bledsoe: Velma Barfield and Barbara Stager. I don't want to further derail the thread. (Newfag here who doesn't want to get yelled at.)
>This is a little suspicious...just because you hear nosies in the attic doesn't make your house haunted the maid may have played a role into the murders for an unknown reason
Have you ever even been to /x/? People will shit themselves over far less. I don't think there's anything weird about that; just because you aren't extrememly superstitious doesn't mean nobody else is.
>Speaking that it wasn't with force this just backs it up even more that they knew the killer
How do we know it didn't involve force? They could have been forced in one at a time at gunpoint.
>Okay this is also creepy...and much of the time a random killer wouldn't stay in an unfamiliar home for that long unless they were comfortable and knew the layouts or lived there
Clearly this is a very atypical case, as such I don't think we should start ruling out possibilities left and right based on conventional theories/methodology. And if the person was a drifter, I don't think they would have problems living in a strange house for a while.
What if someone hired on the farm was working with the person who came from the forest? Like a forward scout. The person from the forest could have hidden in the barn and the person on the farm (the new maid?) could have lured them to the barn because they trusted her. They both then live in the house for a while until they get in a fight and when you've just murdered a family, what's one more murder right? So the person from the forest kills the maid and leaves her with the family.
highly unlikely it was a homeless drifter
They would've taken everything that was worth alot of money...including the fuckload of currency they had stashed in their farmhouse
even if this was the case he wouldn't have killed in the way he did if they're going to kill you they just kill you...not take their time with you thats psychopaths in their comfortzone not a strange home
so they would have likely just finished you off as quick as possible hide your body
Trust me it wasnt a drifter or a homeless person
they would have taken every single fucking dime and ran off...
But no...this wasn't robbery this wasn't "live in the house for a couple weeks" no this was "slaughter the entire family"
That doesn't explain why the new maid was murdered with the family...
Also they were dead for a long time based on the stacking newspapers and child missing school as well as the decomposed bodies
if they wasn't killed instantly they would have screamed for help and someone would've heard it but theres no reports of screaming for help in the reports
since the little girl's jaw was shattered no way she could have screamed...
after the family was killed the killers may have lived on the farm for awhile because "why the fuck not? "
I can guarantee if it were robbery the first thing a home invader and robber would do was cut an run as fast as possible the second they were spotted
They are more afraid of you than you are of them
They are in unfamiliar territory, they dont know if you have a gun, they most of the time dont scout you for a few days, they dont know if you're worst than them.
No it had to be someone who was comfortable and planned the murder for days it wasn't pre planned
Perhaps a fight between the maid and the other killer. The other person snapped and killed her too. They killed the family all in quick succession by luring them one after the other into the barn and killing them quickly then leaving the bodies there (decomposing bodies, missing school, no screams etc)
like i said a fight was ruled out because the killers probably knew their victims so there likely wasn't a fight
led into the barn and stuck from behind probably by a farmer neighbor considering he knows how to work a farm and was comfortable living in one and knew how to care for the animals
so its very likely a possible former farmhand who helped work on the farm
So we're looking for
-Maybe a loner
-a guy with profanity with a pickaxe considering he used it really good
-Maybe someone who is impulsive and acts out violently
The killer may have had a dirty littler secret that the family knew about and that could be another possible motive
Ever been to the witches grave in loon lake?(about 6 hours north) That place was hardcore until they dug it up and moved the grave to a museum in Spirit lake I believe. I went there with some friends before they moved it. Spooks ensued. Just google Loon Lake Cemetary. I guess there was 3 witches, one was named Mary Jane
Some links if you are too lazy to google.
How do we know the maid was sleeping? Also they possibly had a verbal fight then the other murdered quickly killed her in a way that prevented her from fighting back and moved the body to her bed because it was easier than dragging it back out to the barn
If the child had ripped out the killer's hair...just one little piece we would have DNA evidence now..
Shit why not just exhume them and see if any of the women were raped or if any dna was left behind
today's advanced tech we can find the guy maybe
just look at this
>"lower jaw shattered, cervical injury due to shock, severe head injuries. Skull was smashed with several blows and her neck revealed a wide gaping, transverse wound. On the right of her face was a circular wound. Her face was smeared with blood. In her cramped right hand fingers were hair pieces"
A random killer doesn't do that especially when its not sexually motivated if
Couldn't someone have killed her an moved her body to the bed to make it look like she was sleeping? It would be a contrast to how they killed the others but if they knew her and was intimate with her they would act differently, more gently with her body.
No...the killers had no interest in hiding the corpses if they did they would have done a better job
like not make a big bloody mess
They just wanted to kill them quietly and not raise any alerts in the neighborhood
But say they didn't intend on killing the maid so they committed the other murders as quickly as possible but then killed her several days later while inside the house so they could have carried a body upstairs and taken more care with laying out the corpse etc because no one could see them. Consider the killing of the maid as a separate event. Also it was over 90 years ago, I have a bad feeling there wouldn't be much left of them to examine.
>especially as they lost the skulls of all the victims
Nope, never heard of it till just now. Sounds really interesting though. Have you ever been to Workman's Chapel? It's on some back road near Hopkins, MO. There's a lot of legends about that place, most of which have been proven false, but there is still a bunch of spooky activity that goes on there.
The gun isnt the issue here. You hear 2spooky noises, you grab a weapon. Any weapon. If you want to SHOOT, you go for the smaller gun. If you want to intimidate too, you go for the bigger gun.
The teal problems here are:
>the dad somehow managed not to notice his fucking GUNS missing.
>They let the guy escape
I think I've heard of it, never been there though. If you go it to 34 and follow it east for a few hours there is a nursing home that is kinda haunted. But it's in use so you can't really investigate anyways, plus, I heard it's pretty tame
I worked at a nursing home in Clarinda for 3 years, would occasionally work overnights. I saw and experienced quite a few things there, but they were also pretty tame. I think that's just how most nursing homes are.
Also heard of that place, never been though. I went to this place outside of KC where Union soldiers hung some family. We snuck in at night, was creepy as a motherfucker. I swear I heard voices and footsteps. My buddy took a pick and it looks like there was a spooki skari ghost in it. I'll ask and see if he still has the pic
if it wasn't reported to the police, how do we know? have the details just been passed down through the generations?
I read all about these murders a long time ago. I don't remember what hands-on evidence or files are available.
the previous maid saying the house was haunted sounds like something someone would add on in the re-telling.
It's definitely a good one though. Drives you nuts wondering... like this one, famous for being a textbook "perfect crime":
>cervical injury due to shock
this doesn't make any kind of medical sense
an injury to the cervical spine wouldn't be called a "cervical injury". and shock doesn't cause them, it can be a result. neurogenic shock, in fact.
was that a typo, anon? or can you tell me your source?
She must not have died from blows to the head (or jaw), or the possible injury to her cervical spine (back of your neck). The guy cuts her throat and leaves her to bleed. Cause of death - hypovolemic shock caused by blood loss (you loose so much blood that the heart doesn't have enough supply to keep pumping - your BP drops, your heart gives up, and everything shuts down.)
(I know this from my years at my backwater town kitten whispering school. :p)
poor thing, that girl. I bet she was pulling her hair out, not dead from her injuries with her family dead - just freaking out, until he cuts her throat.
**also a bit of correction from same post
shock can't cause spinal injuries (that I know of), but shock could happen as a result of one. (neurogenic shock is a different mechanism than hypovolemic, but it still results in a life threatening drop in blood pressure)
I like this. Good thinkin', anon.
if the maid was originally the "scout" like other anon suggested, there wouldn't have to be a fight if the killer betrayed her (for whatever reason). She may have been in on the plan to start and he was using her all along. Or maybe he decided on the way there I'm just gonna have to get rid of her, too.
The new maid is a good suggestion. Could someone else in the family (oldest daughter, the wife) been having an affair (maybe with the neighbor) with this same scenario of them planning it, but the wife/mother not making it because the killer decides they're not worth it, surprising them by adding them to the list and going solo from there?
there were incest rumors, right?
the incest was not rumors..
also that theory would make more sense if it was the old maid...not the new one
he didn't cut her throat or finish her off she died from blood loss/shock/or the obvious injuries
There are already two main suspects(who probably did it) in the case...both are dead
im telling you the new maid wasn't involved if any maid was involved it was the old one who knew where everything was and knew who the people were
I wanna know why the fuck the grandfather(owner of the farm) didn't report anything to the police or check for the suspicious nosies in the attic ...Lets be realistic here...
Ghosts cant do shit too you or anything they do not have powers like you see on tv...if ghosts are real they just wander the earth
>"lower jaw shattered, cervical injury due to shock, severe head injuries. Skull was smashed with several blows and her neck revealed a wide gaping, transverse wound. On the right of her face was a circular wound. Her face was smeared with blood. In her cramped right hand fingers were hair pieces"
> i read this exact story somewhere else
I doubt that..You probably read a story that was similar to this story
Its not uncommon for homeless psychos to hide in your house for days at a time
they either didnt have much valuables to pick from or the guy didn't want to take anything. Maybe jhe liked be a vagrant and would occasionally wipe out a family, eat their food, sleep at the house for a few days before moving on
>they didn't have much valuable
yes they did...They had a fuck ton of money
Robbery was ruled out...Whats wrong with you people?
its common sense
if it were robbery they would have ransacked everything and left
well then maybe he didn't want to rob them and just wanted to kill
not everyone murder is motivated by money. And why the fuck are you getting so worked up about this? Its an open discussion and its immature to shoot down a possibility just because you don't agree with it
Are you even reading what everyone's posting or just randomly posting?
We've been through motivations and reasons behind the killings
some of us even posted sources
Im the one who posted the Viscilla Axe murder link, one of them anyway, why are you so pissy? I offered a perfectly reasonable explanation to OP's question. you need to relax a bit
>I think the perpetrator(s) lured them into the barn by telling each family member there is treasure or something that's hidden in the barn
I didn't realize the family was jewish
Thats literally like telling a child you will give candy too her if she gets in the van
The homeless guy probably wasn't there?
I dont know why, but I live alone and if I heard any creepy sounds going on in my attic im getting my smg and shooting the fuck out of the attic floor
The grandfather is more too blame for this
>heard strange sounds going on in attic
>keys go missing
>didn't tell anyone
>signs of burglary/attempt burglary
>didn't contact police
>suspicious looking person scouting his farm
>didn't give a shit
>found human footprints in snow leading to house
>again did not contact police
What in the name of god is this man's IQ?
Fair enough that not all murders are for the cash but if you are saying this guy is a drifter then why the hell would he not take anything at all. And again what about the animals on the farm, why would someone feed them if they weren't going to keep them or take them. I think it might have been the father, he just went sorta crazy killed everyone, stayed alive a bit, then killed himself
They were witnesses. The killer wouldn't have known if the children had seen them before the crime was committed (if they didn't know the family or were going incognito), or if they were known to the family and openly walking among them at the time, the children would be able to indicate that they were there at the very least when the crime occurred. So getting rid of them along with the rest of the family would be key to not getting caught. Looks like it worked, too.
Why does no one consider she would have been a possible witness and this person didn't want to be caught? She may have seen something, she may have seen the murders, if the person was known to the family and was hanging around the farm she could at the very least describe them if not name them. Anyone who wasn't the murderer was a potential witness, and given the atrocities committed, this person would not want to leave loose ends. And guess what? It worked! No one can place who may have been at the house because all the people who were there were killed (besides the murderer).
It happened in 1922. They didn't know about DNA, and would not have collected that kind of evidence from the bodies. Also, the DNA would be too degraded by now to test if any was even found on the highly decomposed bodies (by now) of the victims. Plus, they'd need to have collected DNA from all of the suspects to even compare it to. Real life ain't like the tv shows bub.
lurk more...like the wikipeida...unless you're one of those people who thinks wiki is an inaccurate source
Okay, do you mean if the murders had occurred in the 21st century or do you think they could test the bodies now for dna, because I was trying to explain why they can't test the bodies now for dna and what the investigators would have needed to do back then in order for dna evidence to even be useful now.
They knew about DNA since 1869
My point is if that was the killer's DNA and they saved it they would have caught the killer maybe in the 50s or 60s
sadly however she was ripping her hair out due to the trauma she was experiencing not the killer's...so its a fucked case anyway
and I still answered you question >>17238855
You made plenty of valid points that make sense, but you cant assume everyone crime has some deep underlying cause. sometimes they are just that simple. We can debate about it but we'll never no for sure, but don't shoot down other theories because they don't seem as over the top. Think about how many famous serial killers are responsible for notorious unsolved cases throughout history simply because they found a person at the wrong place at the wrong time. Shooting down all theories accept your own is pig headed
No witnesses and he needed a quick, silent weapon. Gunshots could have attracted attention and what better tool then the one you have at hand? By that point whether its strangulations, knives, claw hammers, its going to be messy anyway and if youre in that deep you probably don't give a shit anyway
Oh...My bad I thought you were someone else
I'm not shooting down the theories per ser I'm asking questions about the theories
Im asking "how would it make sense that a brand new maid helped a bunch of killers then get killed shortly after?"
I mean you know if they didn't want a witness they wouldn't have asked for her help
Now the maid theory would make more sense lets say
You know the old maid left the house with the "its a haunted house" excuse she could have aided the killers in some ways
However evidence strongly implies that the killers KNEW the family and KNEW the lay out of the farm and were very likely farmers so why would they need an inside job?
I apologize if i sounded like I was shooting down theories I was just questioning them to understand them better
>didn't want/care for valuable, what good is a family heirloom to a hobo? Maybe he took some loose money but that's all he needed/cared for
>keeps up appearances , if youre going to stay there (others said they saw smoke from the chimney) you don't want to do ANYTHING that would draw attention to a multiple homicide
>maybe, but there are more efficien ways to off yourself, guns, cutting your own throat if you hate yourself but a claw hammer? And the father said to the neighbors about footprints and things going missing. more than likely an outsider
>2 year old toddler
I think it makes a little more sense to say that the killers targeted the whole family...
IMO, the two best theories are some vagrant wanted a place to stay and didn't mind wiping out a family for it (maid happened to have shit luck, stranger things have happened)
or it was a family organized hit and the older maid was in on it. Any info in what happened to her after all this?
bloodlust and the slim slim slim possibility Jr wakes up, looks out the window, sees you whacking the whole family but you don't notice and he gives a simple description to the cops
Once youre in that deep then fuck it go big or go home
I would flip shit if i saw foot prints leading to my house
if it was a "bloodlust motivation" thats related to mental illness such as psychopathy
in other words they would have killed another family
not just kill once and never again
And I agree. It's not uncommon for psycho vagrants to want a place to stay for awhile
However as I've said before...Psychopathic vagrants/crazied dickheads would kill again and again until their caught the killer(s) killed only once and didn't show up again...If he was motivated by needing a place to stay he would have killed another family and invade their homes
and alot of the times these vagrants would loot as much as they can money, jewelry, watches anything that is worth value...The report stated nothing was stolen
much of the time the killer would not violently murder someone unless they were angered thats pretty much the whole point "a crime of passion"
Violently murdering someone fueled by emotions.
Its rather uncommon or even rare for a sane vagrant to invade a home and seriously harm a child/toddler/woman etc...most of the time they will just camp in your basement/attic
Lets not forget the killer(s) were taking care of the farm
this means we're looking for someone who KNOWS how to run a farm
Probably a farmer or someone with farming experience
The maid went into the dark after leaving
No one knows what really happened to her...
Now again I know it sounds like im shooting down your theories I'm just speaking what I learned in criminal psychology courses
Why do people keep saying gunpoint? How would the rest of the family not notice screaming if they were being murdered one at a time in the barn by bludgeoning. And if there's only one person with a gun going back and forth before murdering them, why wouldn't they just make a run for it?
I guess I'm missing something here.
I read the money was HIDDEN in the farmhouse. So a robber wouldn't necessarily take it if he or she didn't know it was there.
But, then again, that doesn't mean I tell my friends or family if or where I hide money in my house.
Not all violent crimes are sexually motivated. And we can't be sure it wasn't.
Didn't BTK ejaculate in his pants after hanging a little girl in the closet? So it didn't need to involve rape, either.
>not all violent crimes are sexually motivated
Yes..that-thats what I was saying
like this guy said >>17238821
A crime a passion is motivated or fueled by emotions
I don't know shit about psychology but thats pretty accurate
putting out food for the animals isn't rocket science, especially if youre going to leave in a few days and don't care if its done right
people only noticed something was wrong a week after the family died and activity stopped on the farm
This family was loaded, they had gold, jewellery and cash for him to steal but no, all that was taken was a couple notes from the wife. And no one would know whether or not the animals were fed and that wouldn't be necessary to do to make it look like everything was normal cause the family lived out of the way. While there may be more efficient ways of killing yourself, he probably went mental and just offed himself with an axe
My aunt had someone living in her attic, well more like he was hiding out. He knew my cousin and broke into the house through a window one day. Since nothing was stolen they didn't even know he was there but they started hearing weird noises from the attic and food was missing that none of the family members said they had eaten. Uncle went into the attic with a flashlight but didn't find anything weird so they thought it might be squirrels or rodents in the attic making the noise. Then one day they started to find stuff stolen and a window was unlocked from the inside while they were at work. So they called the police and they did a full search of the attic and found the guy. He was recently released from jail and on the run for parole or something. He had created an area in the insulation and was living in there and that's why my uncle didn't see him up there when he searched. Anyway he wouldn't come out so they called in the Swat team and dragged him out. Not the coolest story but he was living up there for a couple weeks.
lel, "doctor's word". you know your site is translated from a German one? or at least your site's "sources" are German? Though when you follow the "autopsy results described here" link, and put in the suggested text to google translate, it has nothing to do with the autopsy!
Since you aren't too bright, (and the sources link was hogwash) I was nice enough to search the German source for autopsy results and did get this:
>Dr. Aumüller erklärte bei der Sektion der 11-jährigen Viktoria Gabriel (An. er meint Cäzilia Gabriel), dass das Kind bei rechtzeitiger Tatentdeckung noch hätte gerettet werden können, nachdem durch den Schlag eine Halsverletzung herbeigeführt worden ist, die erst 2-3 Stunden nach dem Schlag den Tod herbeiführte. (Quelle: Aussage des Heinrich Ney vom 19.1.1953)
From google translate
>Dr. Aumüller explained in the section of the 11 -year-old Viktoria Gabriel ( At . He thinks Cäzilia Gabriel ) that the child with timely Tatentdeckung still could have been saved after a neck injury has been caused by the impact , the only 2-3 hours after the shock death brought about . ( Source: statement of Heinrich Ney from 01/19/1953 )
what do you even disagree with in my post? did you read the posts I was replying to? what part of my post did you think was wrong?
I'm not trying to fight with you. I'm medically trained and was trying to clarify a few things for the other kind anons in the thread.
what does the "doctor's word" mean to you? that a "cervical injury due to shock" is a thing? if so, what exactly, is that? or did you just think the you girl didn't die from bleeding out, but from her wounds?
I don't get it. Help me understand, anon.
Ok the axe wound to the neck might have been the death blow. But she had a bunch of injuries. I was just attempting to explain the hair in her hands (and that I'd read somewhere in all of this that the girl was attacked but remained alive for a while). It's possible he injured her (knocked her out, thought she was dead, or left her incapacitated but not dead - she pulls out her hair) and then he goes back and gives her the severe gash in her neck.
Anyway, yeah, was just speculating on what I understood from the details I knew/heard. Sorry for any confusion.
>>Dr. Aumüller explained in the section of the 11 -year-old Viktoria Gabriel ( At . He thinks Cäzilia Gabriel ) that the child with timely Tatentdeckung still could have been saved after a neck injury has been caused by the impact , the only 2-3 hours after the shock death brought about . ( Source: statement of Heinrich Ney from 01/19/1953 )
Explains the hair pulling. It was estimated she was alive an hour or two until she succumbed to her wounds and died from shock!
I was reading through the thread and wrote this post.>>17250675
It's not that uncommon but this youtube video does show some of the crazier examples but it usually turns out like my aunt and uncle's house. My cousin knew the guy, he didn't hurt anyone and he was just trying to hide from the police.
while the thread is still up, do you guys want to talk about this legendary unsolved murder?
Can /x/ solve the unsolvable?
or, for the hundredth time, it was a bum who didn't want any money and just wanted to kill. Ted bundy, the night stalker, and the BTK all could have raided the families home they broke into but aside from a few trophies just wanted to straight up murder the family. Its not that crazy of an idea. Killing yourself with an axe is
it was a pickaxe
not an ax
I dont think he went back he probably thought she was dead and put her body with the others
wtf are you talking about?
You wanted a source I gave you a source
and its in english
>Cazillia Gabriel (daughter Viktoria Gruber): lower jaw shattered, cervical injury due to shock, severe head injuries. Skull was smashed with several blows and her neck revealed a wide gaping, transverse wound. On the right of her face was a circular wound. Her face was smeared with blood. In her cramped right hand fingers were hair pieces."
I dont fucking know but even the wikipedia is saying it
The doctor was saying that due to the injury she fell into shock
the point is, it took her a couple hours to die. hair in hands explained.
read my post again, maybe. I don't think you fully comprehended it.
I didn't ask you for a source.
I explained why your source was pretty bullshit though, for a couple of reasons.
>cervical injury due to shock
>due to shock
explain how shock causes a "cervical injury"
find one source that says "cervical injury" other than your page, preferably a source from a professional medical site (optional)
yeah, I know neurogenic shock, I talked about it here >>17243133 and specifically here >>17243174
yep, I know. see above, where I explained "shock" and why it was the cause of death (as a result of injury.
OH THAT'S RIGHT - injuries cause the shock condition...WHICH MEANS "CERVICAL INJURY DUE TO SHOCK" IS NOT A THING
I did ask for a source earlier. The way you replied to me didn't make that clear though, since you weren't replying to the post where I asked for it.
I did get to your source though. the defrostingcoldcases page?
And I explained already the problems I had with that site.
my guess is because they used the german site to source the description of her injuries something got lost in translation that ended up giving you
>cervical injury due to shock
but yeah, trust that doctor's opinion on some random page for a cause of death that doesn't make medical sense but makes sense to you because you won't trust the explanation a medical professional anon gives you.
You're saying its not that crazy to not take money but just kill an entire family and maid? Killing yourself with an axe is crazy but to be in the state the father would have had to have been in to kill the family anyway would make killing himself with an axe slightly understandable, that's why I think the father and not a bum or drifter. The idea that they would take no money or valuable and all the other weird stuff makes it seem the father just went crazy
I work part time as a first responder and have been to plenty of suicides. 90% of the time people are looking for an easy way out (shooting, poison) and then a handful of people who truly hate themselves/their families and want to suffer and or make a mess. Box cutter to the throat, cutting wrists, most creative ive seen is a dude putting on a noose, tying it off to a tree, getting in his car and flooring it ripping of his own head. M.E. said it was pretty quick, but still. I and to my knowledge none of the other guys, have see somebody beat them serves to death with an axe or in this case claw hammer. Youd probably loose consciousness before you could inflict that amount of damage. He'd still die from trauma and blood loss but it sounds like they were all beaten to a pulp
What I am saying is the two theories I believe are the family's relatives or close friends knew of the inner problems >>17237047 and decided to kill them or it was just a random drifter in post ww1 Germany who deiced to kill a secluded family live at their house, maybe take small things like money but not silver or valuables because what good is that for a bum? There are plenty of documented serial killers in post ww1 Europe
You have to wonder how many unsolved cases these guys caused, and with everyone trying to reorganize after ww1 plus it being in bumfuck no where the idea isn't any ,ore irrational then a dad beating himself to death with a claw hammer
he probably attacked the adults, specifically the father, first. with the opposing threats gone he led the rest out either by fear or force or even lied and said just wait in the barn. they go in, see the body pile and he kills them before they can react
Just because you're a dumb fuck doesn't mean everybody else is anon
My tested IQ was 85 anyway
It was a bit too long after ww1 for it to be a drifter from the war surely. And I know I've said it but the idea of a bum taking nothing (this family was loaded not just valuables but cash as well) is nonsense, they must've wanted some cash to buy food with. You mention relatives, the biggest suspect was a family friend I believe who upon seeing the family dead had no reaction and was supposedly fucking the daughter, it was probably him. The other spoopy stuff is just too weird tho, newspaper, footsteps in attic and forest, feeding the animals. All weird spoopy stuff and guess what, well never know what happened
wtf phaggot the pic didn't upload
>It was a bit too long after ww1 for it to be a drifter
Yeah, millions of people whos countries were destroyed both physically and financially who had nothing to go back to and were suffering from PTSD got there shit together in a few years. pull you head out of your ass, youre embarrassing yourself
maybe he took some small things and some cash, maybe he was more focused on a warm bed and a good meal for a few days,maybe the investigators fudged it and forget to add certain things into the official notes because it was a small place in the middle of nowhere and this was back in the 20s. We still have that happen even today
I'm implying the drifter wasn't involved in the war and just fleed his country, also if he was a drifter he didn't drift very fucking far, hinterkaifeck is close to a lot of battlefields in terms of would scale. I would have though most drifters from ww1 would've ended up way more south of Germany or east of Germany not nearly dead fucking center (I accept that my comment was pretty fucking dumb, didn't think about it)
A fraction in what way, the bombs and guns we have now are way more technically advanced then ww1. The amount of things that happened in ww1 is more but surely the damage may be the same
He could live off the land and become a hermit. If you knew survival and knew the lay of the land well enough you can live in the wilderness or an abandoned shed. Hell, if you're resourceful enough you can build your own shelter.
>we have now are way more technically advanced then ww1
Nigga look up strategic bombing and how precise we are at it. Back then there were no advanced guidance systems, you just threw as many bombs and mortars at the general location of the enemy and hoped the calculations were correct.
I was with you until you starting spewing this crap, you're obviously a child talking out of your ass
>all vets were fine after a few year post ww1
>we have more tech now, so its worse the ww1
leave your basement for a little while for fucks sake and read a history book