Any of you guys up to discuss eschatology?
So, Fyodorov, the great Orthodox philosopher. theorized that possible through technology, the soul, after the restoration of all things, would have absolute control over matter down to the subatomic levels, returning matter to the state of the toy block, the plaything for joy God intended it to be for us. We'd have complete control over our bodies, and in fact all matter in the universe ("God became man so that men could become gods"). The material as it currently stands, is a master over us, and it corrupted our childlike quality. The god as a child is expressed by several philosophers (Heraclitus, for instance, and Nietzsche expresses the highest spiritual state as becoming "the child" in Thus Spoke Zarathustra--Christ said we must become as little children to enter the Kingdom of God). The material and the spiritual return to complete harmony, and we are in the material world and heaven simultaneously, as we are all intimately and acutely aware of God's love penetrating and sustaining us and all matter, it is a constant state of bliss that it spiritually enjoyed more than the finest incense or richest food.
Dogs can't. Dogs love, for instance, but do not judge.
Consciousness is important because it gives you a higher degree of free will, but that also means you can sin. However, in Orthodox Christianity (unlike Catholicism), the lack of consciousness does not mean lack of soul, and in fact in Orthodoxy, animals do have souls. They suffer and die because of the fall of man which contaminated the material world, but their souls are probably immortal and will have bodies again with the restoration of all things.
God suffers a lot, because he created us to love and love him back, but because of the corruption of sin which covers us, our ability to love is impaired, and we can only love as mirrors reflecting his love. Once all things are restored, we will be able to generate love ourselves.
God suffers for all our suffering, and must do so because of his great love of us. He is also very hurt by our lack of love for him and our hurting of each other, since every time we hurt someone else, it is like hurting God himself.
I feel like pointing my finger at others a lot.
Its hard to like everyone. Love, I can do, though that leaves my form of love seemingly shallow, especially in the eyes of others.
I try not to be selfish, and I realize that by letting some go, letting some fall, I set myself free to love.
tl;dr what do you do when people dont want Gods love that flows through us all?
You go to hell. In Orthodox Christianity hell and heaven are literally the same thing, being acutely aware of God's love (represented as light or fire) flowing through you and everything in existence. Nothing can exist without God's infinite love sustaining it constantly, but sin deadens our consciousness of it. But will the restoration of all things, we will all feel God's love as something more real and acutely than being on fire, and if you want it, it will be bliss, but if you don't, it will be agony.
It's not perpetual, exactly. Genesis technically says "in a beginning"--the universe was originally like that, but it got out of hand and had to be rekt (probably what the flood symbolizes), and God had to create another one and maybe more. But only in *this* one has God come down in human form for commune with us. This is the last iteration. Because though we will retain our distinctiveness, we will all be One in God, which we never were before. Theosis will prevent a repeat.
What if I am not convinced by God so far?
Is it my fault that the more I live and the more I learn the less likely it is for God to exist? Is it my fault that I have to take the existence of God at the face value?
I was born and raised Orthodox Christian by the way.
Should I base my belief in God on some feelings I am supposed to feel when I enter church or pray which I don't even feel anymore?
Nah dude, God is only as powerful as you let him be in your life. There is a lot of fucked up shit in the world, but most of the really bad stuff is caused by man, who God cannot interfere with.
Personally, I find God in my car, on long drives, listening to music and carefully observing and thinking and shit... You can look for God in the churches but really all they're doing in there is what I'm trying to do for you (help you see God).
But you know what at the end of the day its probably not that important to believe in God. Its more important that you're a good person and you at least try to be kind, and pure of heart.
Or not. Fuck everything right?
I just...this will sound arrogant but I always liked to think that I am a good person, from my childhood I tried to act like what I believed Jesus would act like and out of all things like Superman, just helping everyone because you can, because helping each other is the only thing that got us here so far, on a pragmatic level it's the best survival strategy and on spiritual level it just makes you feel good and brings some hope in humanity.
As I got older the idea that God will punish people for not believing in him regardless of how good they started eating away at me, especially in religions like Islam where God has a fucking constitution and lawset that you must obey to pass a shitty "test" and get to heaven.
If God is that kind of a being, he isn't a being I would like to worship regardless if he exists or not.
>When was the last time you fasted or went to confession?
About a year ago. It has been two years since I started to doubt my faith but last year was when I told myself that if I don't believe I shouldn't lie to myself and pretend that I believe, I decided to go on some soul searching. One leftover that I have is night prayers, it's something I've been doing since I was 4 and even now I sometimes automatically pray at night.
If we become full Gods, and in a sense replace the current God (while simultaneously becoming one with him) then I fail to understand how this would not be a cycle. Seems inevitable or on the other hand, that it would be the end of all things, in this realm/dimension at least.
But I'm going to bed now. If you want to keep the thread going I'll check it in the morning. Good talk, I love conversations like these, thanks for humoring me. Have a good night and God bless ;)
Anon, you just fucking broke my heart.
If you love God then he loves you too. If you hate God and you want to go to war with him, then he hates you too (but he still loves you, lol). And even if you don't believe in God at all, even if you've never heard of God, he still loves you, and you shouldn't worry for yourself or anyone else. He doesn't discriminate at all, and he may very well kill you or me, or the entire human race tomorrow. Just be easy and get through the day. Keep your eyes open, your head on your shoulders, and your heart alive (literally and figuratively).
Good night bud.
I haven't, but I've heard people mention it before, how will it help me?
>and you shouldn't worry for yourself or anyone else
How could you not worry for others if God does indeed punish anyone and everyone who does not abide to his laws and does not believe in him, being apathetic to this notion is outright evil if you ask me.
Source please? Another thing that I realized over the years is that majority of priests here (Georgia) are not very intelligent and do not know their own teachings.
If you guys could dump and name some Orthodox "Must Reads" I would be really grateful.
Another quest I have is what do you guys think about Transhumanism? From what I know orthodox church denies Death as something that is natural, that it's by product of rebellion and should be defeated, does that mean that achieving cybernetic immortality and then waiting out till the judgement day would not be against Orthodox teachings?
It's a very simply and beautiful novel on prayer, which is vital for maintaining faith. Even people who aren't religious tend to love it.
Also, have you read any Dostoevsky?
Do you understand what the Orthodox conception of hell is? It's not a place of punishment or separation from God, I posted it before.
You also understand that the idea of universal reconciliation is not heretical in the Orthodox Church?
"God became man so men can become God."
Well he's even more idiotic than I previously thought. Let me become man so I can suffer my own wrath and condemn myself to eternal fire for not believing in myself. God is a quack.
>Also, have you read any Dostoevsky?
Yes, of course, I doubt that anyone who grew up in USSR has not read Dostoevsky
>It's a very simply and beautiful novel on prayer, which is vital for maintaining faith. Even people who aren't religious tend to love it.
I will check it out, thanks
Could you elaborate and give reading material on Orthodox Heaven and Hell because being "away" from God and separated from his is exactly how my priest explained hell. That eternal suffering comes from the fact that you are not with God.
Thanks, will read.
I'm not going to have faith in a being that sends people to hell for not believing in something they can't see. I mean, he gave me that option right? To not believe or to believe? Why give someone more than one option then get pissed when they choose one you don't like? god is evil, and far from loving.
>Could you elaborate and give reading material on Orthodox Heaven and Hell
St. Isaac the Syrian gives the best account of the Orthodox understanding of hell. If you want to read about hell, you best read him.
But here's a simple statement
Here is a quote from St. Isaac the Syrian
>I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability.
Literally nothing can exist without God actively sustaining it with infinite love. You can't be "away" from God, sin can just numb or blind you so it feels that way.
read the post of that anon, what he is basically saying is
>Eventually Gods love becomes super apparent and fills everything
>If you don't like God and do not want to be with him his constant presence and love will torture you and annoy you
>If you love God you will like it
So he doesn't really send you anywhere...still I sort of dislike the notion that because you don't like God you will have to constantly suffer in his presence. Another thing I don't really understand is if it's permanent or not, if at some point a guy who is in state of "hell" decides
>Fuck this, I love God now
Will he suddenly shift to state of heaven? Or is all of it locked and permanent
That last statement I linked you was from the Orthodox Church in America
Here is one from the Greek Orthodox Church
That's a really interesting perspective on heaven and hell and I am surprised that I've never heard it from any of the priests over here.
What about non-believers? For example, imagine a person who is an atheist but he tries to spread love and help people as much as possible, will he suffer because he did not recognize and join in the love of Christ during his lifetime?
Also how about this
Does your choice just get eternally locked in at some point?
Also what is the point of baptism and is it necessary to achieve heaven?
>Another thing I don't really understand is if it's permanent or not, if at some point a guy who is in state of "hell" decides
Known proponents of a qualified doctrine of apocatastasis within the Orthodox Church include:
Archpriest Sergius Bulgakov
St Sophrony (Sakharov)
Archimandrite Lazarus (Moore)
Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia
>What about non-believers? For example, imagine a person who is an atheist but he tries to spread love and help people as much as possible, will he suffer because he did not recognize and join in the love of Christ during his lifetime?
We don't know. He might, he might not. Or he might suffer, and then get the chance to reconcile (remember the atheist in hell in the Brothers Karamazov? Dostoevsky favored the idea of universal reconciliation).
Satan can be looked at in multiple ways, and really this is another reason I like Dostoevsky. Porfiry, in Crime in Punishment, is stand in for Satan, but so is Ivan from the Brothers Karamazov.
Can Satan repent? More crucially, *would* Satan repent? We cannot know. But it is Christian to hope and pray so.
In the mean time, Satan is the Adversary, because he is the Father of all lies (evil is, after all, a lie, a nil, a nothing, nothing exists without God actively sustaining it with love, and since he does not actively sustain evil, it is a lie propagated by Satan).
Okay, maybe he doesn't send you to a place of pure fire and torture, but its still hell in the sense that you'll be miserable from his love if you don't love him yourself. Regardless, that's not a god I would want to love or devote my life to.
The Old Testament is carnal, but becomes corporeal when illuminated by the new testament. Without the NT to illuminate it, is the flesh without the spirit. People did not have the Spirit then, so everything had to be carnal. Morality was carnal (an eye for an eye), the covenant was carnal (circumcision), Pascha was carnal (unleavened). So God is described in carnal terms (do not forget that the Bible is not God himself, but an *icon* of him, and take you must take it as you would a pictorial icon, not necessarily truth itself, but an icon of truth).
But if you use the NT (and the Philokalia, very handy) as a lens through which to understand the OT, it ceases to be carnal and becomes corporeal. The Binding of Isaac is a very good example here.
Thanks anon. All of this is an interesting read and I will research it now.
I still have some serious doubts about the existence of God but I certainly feel better about Orthodox Christianity now, more importantly I would love to share this stuff with my family who are believers.
Another one who misunderstand Nietzsche and put their ideas onto him. Sorry op!
We all have doubts, brother.
God bless you as well. May love grace your life.
Okay? Christianity is one of MANY religions. As you might know, some have gone extinct, some survived, but the fact of the matter is they all speak in absolutes. Doing that makes you look like a fool.
Do you know what happens to people who dabble with occultism? They burn in hell because that is the Christians god will. That's a solid case of contradiction right there. He wants you to follow and obey him, yet he says anyone who is an occultist will burn. Your god sounds mighty confused.
I love this thread, prabhu, and your appearance on the board. The Orthodox conception of Heaven/Hell seems similar in a lot of places to Gaudiya conception of the spiritual and material realms. Though our conception is that the plan is eternal as opposed to coming to some sort of fruition at a later time.
>You do not feel his love because your spiritual sensitivity is encrusted with corruption.
>Bg 3.36 — Arjuna said: O descendant of Vṛṣṇi, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force?
>Bg 3.37 — The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world.
>Bg 3.38 — As ﬁre is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly covered by different degrees of this lust.
>Bg 3.39 — Thus the wise living entity’s pure consciousness becomes covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisﬁed and which burns like ﬁre.
It's more important that you find, feel and understand God in yourself than reading what others have written on pages throughout history.
God is you. God agrees with you 100%. And hes also a sarcastic asshole.
Thank you, senpai
I think the major difference is that Orthodox Christianity sees the spiritual and material as complementary. The material is a gift from God...it is corrupted by sin, but not corrupt in itself.
What truthful rebuke did you just righteously utter of me, you worthiest of souls? I’ll have you know I failed God to the deepest of the pit in my class of worldly sinners, and I’ve been involved in numerous shameful transgressions on God's forgiveness, and I have over 300 confirmed faults. I am depraved in wicked thoughts and I’m the top coveter in the entire legions of the damned. I am nothing to thee but just another Satan. I will praise you to heaven and back with the most contrite of hearts the likes of which has been seen all too often from the sinner, mark my unworthy lips. You think you can serve away with your words of wisdom to me over the Internet? God bless, brother. As we speak I am contacting my holy communion of saints across heaven and your love is being traced right now so you better prepare for the Theosis, militant. The mercy that sustains the shining little thing you call your soul. You’re God's gift, kid. I can be all things at all times to all men, and I can bow to you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just while kissing your hand. Not only am I extensively corrupted by unnameable vileness, but I have betrayed to the entire covenant of the Orthodox Body of Christ, and I will plead her to her full benevolence to sanctify your virtuous spirit off the face of the lie, you little star. If only you could have known what holy gratitude your little “meek” rebuke was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have blessed your benign tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re reaping the harvest, you God fearing joy. I will weep thanks all over you and you will drown in it. You've found life, kiddo.
I usually can do very close to what you're describing in my dreams, and it's because I've always wondered what it would be like to do so. Once, a real big burly guy showed me how he could change frost into different shapes and objects by moving his hands a certain way, and I showed him how I could stop time for certain objects in my dreams by think about it and holding out my hand. I asked him how he was able to transmute matter so easily and he got really mad. I think to him we were just showing off to each other, but I was curious how he did it because that's a useful skill. Now I can do moderate tricks with transmutation like turning objects into other small objects by touching them or moving them with my eyes closed. Usually I do it as a parlour trick for people in my dreams, but sometimes I do it as an escape if I need something.
Dreams are funny man; I now have the infrastructure to move matter telekinetically if the technology could go that far. I imagine the knowing where every particle is and what they're made of and their immediate next state is what you'd need to know to change them all of a sudden
First off, strictly speaking we don't know that the physical realm exists. All we can say for certain is that there is some set of information-transformation processes which result in consciousness. There is definitely a world which can consciously be reliably interacted within mathematically defined boundaries. Whether this world is physically extant is unknown. We know that mind(s) exist and that there is some computational substrate underlying them which is predictable. For example, our existence could merely be a psychosocial experiment by aliens based in a completely virtual world. We don't know if "matter" exists, but we do know that mind must. Given that, I think it is better, for myself at least, to focus on thought. We should seek to contribute to mental goodness so to speak. That is art, science, philosophy, positive hermeneutics and meaning-making/truth-ascertaining in general.
>The material is a gift from God...it is corrupted by sin, but not corrupt in itself.
Agreed. In truth the only difference between the material and spiritual realm is the illusory idea that it exists separate from God.
> So you can turn this material world into Vrindavan provided you agree to fulfill the desires of Krsna. That is Vrindavan. And if you want to fulfill your own desires, that is material. This is the difference between material and spiritual.
>The same thing, this house. This house is a house. The next door is a karmi's house, and this house is a temple. What is the difference? The difference is: in this house everyone is engaged to fulfill Krsna's desire, and the other house, everyone is engaged in fulfilling his own desire. Therefore it is temple, and that is house. Otherwise, from the external feature, where is the difference? The same stone, the same wood, the same plants, the same land, the same kitchen -- everything is same, and the business is the same. But here the business is to satisfy Krsna, and the other houses, the business is to satisfy one's own senses. That is the difference between kama and prema. When you try to fulfill the desires of Krsna, that is prema. And when you want to fulfill your own desires, that is called kama. There is no other.
- Srila Prabhupada, Hawaii, 1/30/1975
Nietzsches parable actually goes man -> child -> lion. Thought you should know.
Yes. Narada Muni travels freely between the material realms and Vaikuntha. Eternally pure souls descend all the time (though rare in any one place) to guide seekers out of ignorance. Bhaktivinode Thakur spoke of the material and spiritual as two parallel tracks for the train of life.