Chaos Magick General: Mods pls no delete edition.
>What is Chaos Magick?
An approach to magick designed to strip it down to basic principles in order to make it more efficient and effective
>Where do I start with it?
'Oven-Ready Chaos' by Phil Hine
'Liber Null & Psychonaut' by Peter Carroll.
Liber MMM is part of Liber Null, it's a commonly-used CM training programme
www.chaosmatrix.org has tons of neat stuff
>Prove magic does reel
Try out CM and see for yourself
What kind of stuff are you guys up to these days?
Anyone else doing Liber MMM? Or has done it in the past?
I posted the other night about my first experience with that I think was gnosis.
I hit it twice again today during no-thought, only for a few seconds each time. Managed to keep it going with my eyes open the second time, to see what would happen.
This is my second month of MMM (started 1 November), I'm being a little lax about it (definitely not Pact standard, I'm missing days here and there), but it seems to be progressing okay. I'd kind of budgeted to give all of December to no-thought, as an anon here had stressed how important it was- I'm glad I did.
I'll move on to one of the trances in January I reckon. I should be able to move through the Banishing section pretty easily later on- I'm used to doing the LIRP and LBRP with the G.'.D.'., so the purpose of the exercise for me will be to see how it works when you change around the components, as Caroll suggests.
Also thinking about doing Liber KKK down the line, but from the look of it I'll definitely need a handle on magical trance first before attempting it.
Anyone done either MMM or KKK in the past?
I've been working on MMM for about 17 years. It's good to keep practicing. The sort of off thi g is I never really focused on any onefacet of it when I was younger, so I have well rounded knowledge but not expertise in any one area. MMM isnt really a priority in the bulk lf anything I practice on a regular basis though, so I don,t think it's having a negative impact.
Have you never gone back n tried anything youve tried before to see if you can get any better at it? If not, you're missing out on a lot of opportunities to better yourself. Retink your question... if someone has been practicing for 17 years..consistently trying new experiments and revisiting at a later date to see if they have improved any I WOULD HOPE they were doing more than just one thing. Btw.. same anon you were asking here..trying out my new tablet hubby bought me for holiday present. I forgot I didnt have my trip on here. And, I hate this keyboard interface..Im going to get a physical keyboard so I can have all my punctuation
And by the by when I started I was 14 and had no Idea it was MMM. I was taught itby a much olderman from New York that was into CM but also Regardie, G.D. and who promptly disappeared from my life when I confessed my massive crush on him to him. LOL Ahh...the follies of youth.
Reading 'Stealing the Fire from Heaven' by Stephen Mace atm.
This book is absolutely great, it's a nice balance between Hine's wackiness and Carroll's scientific approach
I use magick, molted my own branch, I haven't got a job for years, still I can eat, sleep, buy stuff, have pocket money, do things and enjoy my life.
I just studied magick in all forms, psychology and economics. I am living a good life now, thanks to magick.
I don't own a yard, don't need one. I don't wear a $7000 watch, don't need one.
I do have people that offer me housing and food. And I am good at sex. So I am still winning the game.
looks like a funny movie, but no, that's not me.
I just find a church, and a weak woman, tell them I drink and want to find jesus, sleep with them, have sex and when Jesus start to knock to loud, I break up, find an other church, play stupid and a heavy drinker, a dumb naive woman and try to get in her pants. That's pretty much the basic scam. Church is the easiest place to pull tricks, they just want to believe you are willing to change your life.
I just have to make sure they don't make pictures to post on the web, that's all
Why is this relevant in a chaos magick thread?
I use different magical methods to make bind them unto me, like hoodoo rituals, enochian spells and smart trickery upon family and friends. If you wanna win in life, try everything you can to do so.
Dumping this comic.
Bluefluke is the artist. He says he hasn't finished them yet, so I'll just post what I have so far.
For those interested in Liber MMM, this is basically a more fleshed-out version
And that's all I have.
If anyone has any more, please feel free to contribute
kkk isn't something you /do/ like mmm, it's just a model to think about different magical tools and how they're used for different applications. for instance there's no reason to do shamanism/sorcery/ceremonial in any particular order and in fact a lot of people would advise you start with ceremonial.
also, as far as practicing trances go, spend 15 minutes reading about self-hypnosis. might as well, since that's what carroll did.
>it's just a model to think about different magical tools and how they're used for different applications
Well yeah, but the idea is that you use those models to create exercises that you do sequentially as a replacement of The Sacred Magick of Abramelin as a training programme, I seem to remember Carroll suggesting you do them in order. But different strokes for different folks, I guess
>spend 15 minutes reading about self-hypnosis
Why? Are you actually recommending it or just having a dig a Carroll?
Intense syncretism is more practically useful than paradigm switching; it's just harder and requires more focus and concept-juggling. Paradigm switching is mostly useful for finding the lens through which you absorb the most information; once you start fleshing out a syncretic magical paradigm for practical use, you'll want to integrate and expand on it rather than having a bunch of discrete, unconnected tools for basically the same sets of jobs.
In terms of looking for models to base your self-designed system off of, it's best to start outside of the west. Most western occult systems from the last 300 years are indebted to the masonic lodge format. While it's possible to adapt it to individual use, it's much better to turn to a system designed from the ground up to be a one-man show for inspiration. A lot of ATR (african traditional religion) comes to mind. Really, if you're studying chaos magick, caribbean and african occultism need to be your priorities. Motherfuckers get results that make Crowley look even more like a sorry larper than he already does.
Last but not least, the most effective chaos magick techniques in your personal repertoire will be the ones that remind you of things you did when you were a little kid. For instance, getting to know your childhood imaginary friend as an adult will give you a far greater, friendlier, more helpful ally in the spirit world than you'd ever get through the usual means of cajoling and bribery, second only to having a good relationship with a powerful ancestor.
I absolutely recommend you read up on self-hypnosis until you can reliably do it; if you've been following magical training programs you'll find it super easy. It's a very useful, light, entry level trance, and a phase I pass through whenever I'm going deeper. Making fun of carroll is just something that happens in the magick community, relentlessly and reliably.
Because he makes claims like kkk having anything at all to do with abramelin. It doesn't. Anyhow, the idea of takling shamanism in a step-by-step training program is laughable, unless your steps are
>get seriously fucked over
>deny any external help
>figure out what allowed you to fix yourself and what else you could do with it
google. it's not complicated tech.
this isn't me being unhelpful, the literature on self-hypnosis is a million people saying the same thing over and over again, and you might as well find the variation that suits you.
Choas magik doesn't work.
Belief doesn't change reality.
Millions of children sincerely and fervently believe in Santa Claus and have done so for a very long time.
Santa does not manifest himself.
If you want magic, you need to summon those entities by name and those names are secret.
You people don't even know what the word "Occult" means.
Enjoy your cosplay and self hypnotic delusions.
So you told the authorities you believe in magik and now you get a crazy check once a month.
Good for you.
so here's a question: i want to believe in magic and chaos magic seems like the most likely one to actually work irl. BUT, i'm a nihilist (no, not the faggy edgy teenager nihilist, an actual nihilist who believes nothing is concrete or objective). do i have to believe in some supernatural "thing" to use chaos magic?
I have a gf, so never needed to, but yeah, there's no reason why you couldn't.
A sigil would do the trick, but you'd need to decide whether you're making it just to get a girl (e.g. "I will fuck a girl tonight", and then you make sure to go to a nightclub or something that night), or to make yourself more attractive (e.g. "girls will find me very attractive")
>do i have to believe in some supernatural "thing" to use chaos magic?
To paraphrase Crowley, it doesn't matter whether or not gods, spirits, etc exist, but for intents and purposes, the universe acts as if they do
Interesting, how'd you get into it?
Are you Brazilian?
What kind of stuff do you do?
And actually, what's the difference between Umbanda and Quimbanda?
ok, so then you're basically saying that there are things that are possible to achieve through some sort of psychodrama that we cannot explain, so because we have no words to describe them, they are just referred to as gods or spirits. is that the gist of it?
>And actually, what's the difference between Umbanda and Quimbanda?
Well one side like to dress in white and typically uses the blue or green lightsaber. Usually uses the force to protect and heal.
The other usually dress in black and red, and uses the red lightsaber. Usually uses the force for coercion and destruction.
So like the difference between Hecate and Santa Muerte
and Quagon Djinn is Morrigan
I don't have to explain myself to an android
The truth lies within pure Chaos.
Just ignore Peter J. Carroll and his delusions, pure Chaos is what humans will achieve, endure and acknowledge.
The Black Sun will rise, my fellow brothers, and we will be free once again.
Oh yeah I'm sure that will work out for you
I have no idea what is chaos magick all about.
After reading this thread, I could guess it's "fake and gay" (as many others would put it).
So, another question rises - why everyone hates it so much?
>let's skim-read Liber Null, find one line that sounds ridiculous when taken out of context, and ignore the rest of it!
Are you also one of those people who reads the Bible and giggles at every instance of the word "ass"?
>Its just fake
The power of chaos magick has compelled you to post in this thread, however.
Oh hi there?
Looks like a lot of fun.
The art movement is one of my favorite things about Umbanda.
It's like Catholicism moved outside into the open air and started hanging out with the street urchins.
Where would be a good place to start in this whole thing? I've seen these threads and it seems interesting, but overwhelming. I have no idea how to start.
What precisely does this refer to when it speaks of practicing visualization and its aid to alchemy? I figured that skill is just as important to alchemy as any other classification of magic, but then again I don't know jackshit about alchemy.
And also, is this "third eye" hullabaloo credible? As in, do you actually start seeing crazy shit
I'll limit myself to these dumb questions for now. I myself am simply trying to put the Liber MMM into practice for the time being. admirable, i know
Can't speak for the alchemy thing but as far as the third eye thing goes, yes and no.
It's a controlled hallucination and the more you practice the more vivid and expansive it becomes.
It takes hella time and practice though, people claiming to have the "sight" right after opening their eye are liars.
You have to work towards it, flex the eye in that direction if you want it.
Visuals aren't the only benefit to opening your eye either, you'll be able to better grasp abstract concepts,
empathize with others and be more creative, though that's not nearly as sexy as astral interactivity. :P
Uhm, after I meditated on my third eye, the next day when I was takin a shower, I focused on a drip of water in the glass and I started to see things like a baillarina dancing, I've never experienced that, and also the next day I tried again but I could only see a Z and the droplets where falling over but the one I was seeing just stood there.
(I hope you understand)
>As in, do you actually start seeing crazy shit
"Crazy shit" takes time, but you can see energy flows and auras without too much effort.
But the "third eye" isn't a literal thing the way your physical eyes are, it's just a focal point for meditation which allows you to develop those particular faculties.
>Uhm, is it normal that sometimes I feel a pressure on my chest and anxiety whenever I feel some energy flow?
You probably have an energy blockage somewhere. Excessive negative emotions or poor physical health cause blockages in the meridian system, the energy behind those blockages builds up and stagnates, then when you start moving energy manually you loosen or break these blockages and the stagnant energy which build up during the emotional/physical problems is released and causes a recurrence.
So yeah, it's pretty normal. You probably had issues with anxiety in the past (or maybe still do, I don't know), and now you're moving energy, you're releasing that stagnant energy into the system, where it influences your mind and body.
It's pretty common. For nearly my whole first year of daily practice, I could only practice energy work 30 minutes - 1hr a day, and often I'd have to take a break for the next day, since it was constantly leaking stagnant energy out of these blockages and into my system - kind of like lancing an infected abcess and the bacteria flooding your bloodstream.
Find a good teacher and keep practicing, and you'll work your way through it. Yoga or Chi Kung are a good idea as well, and acupuncture can help if your problem is moderate (in more severe cases, it can release too much stagnant energy at once and actually make it worse, which is why you need a good practitioner, not just one of the millions churned out in China with no idea of the spiritual/energetic side of their practice.
>Also, is everything in it much more "feeling" than visualization?
In terms of internal energy, yes. Although eventually you'll start getting a "sense" for the color/appearance of your energetic anatomy as you turn your attention inwards/begin to develop your clairvoyance.
You're right, what I'm referring to isn't exactly "energy" in the scientific sense of the word (although there are strong parallels between the concepts, which is why the term was adopted). I could just as easily say Chi, or Prana, or Pneuma, or Mana, or Vital/Odic Force, etc etc, but all of the traditional terms for it are specific to certain languages/cultures/traditions. "Energy" serves as a universal, catch-all phrase for those terms which people reading might otherwise not understand.And this useage is hardly new, it's been around for the better part of a century, so it's kind of childish to get petulant about it. You know very well that we're not referring to the scientific definition of energy, acting as if that isn't understood and established is just trolling.
>So, what, you're referring to the fake form of energy that doesn't exist?
I'm referring to an experience (arguably a force, but that's a whole other debate in itself, so we'll set it aside for now) which closely matches the experience of energy in the scientific conception.
eg: If you practice Chi Kung, you will feel what the Taoist philosophers referred to as Chi. It's not imaginary, it's not subjective, if you practice a certain exercise, you'll undergo a certain experience which has both subjective and externally measurable components, and so will anyone else who practices that exercise. Anyone who practices Chi Kung will tell you that the experience of Chi, depending on the system and the exercise, includes varying sensations such as pressure/vibration, tingling electrical sensations, intense heat (which can, and has been, scientifically measured - read up on Tibetan tummo), twitching and shaking of certain parts of the body. All of these are akin to the experience of being exposed to "scientific energy", whether it's kinetic, thermal or electric.
So there's a subjective experience and a measurable biological phenomenon. Does this mean that Chi is exactly what the Taoist philosophers said it is? No. It could turn out that Chi doesn't exist in that manner, much like the Phlogiston which was once held to be responsible for combustion because the process was not understood, and that these experiences and phenomena are the result of some other as of yet not understood mechanism within the nervous system or the wider body.
But the fact remains that these experiences/phenomena, described as Chi (or any of the other names I mentioned, depending on the culture in question), are real, anyone can perform the proper exercises and feel/measure it for themselves. And as long as we lack a better understanding of the phenomena, we have to make do with the best and most applicable terminology available.
It's called a psychosomatic response. Except tummo, which is distinctly different in that it increases the body's metabolic rate.
>exposed to energy
>experience of energy
lol. Just stop. I don't think you're capable of appreciating just how retarded you are right now. Read through an introductory physics textbook, and then come back.
Very interesting, but it raises the question of why mystics who comment on matters pertaining to physics are called out (quite rightly) for not being experts in the field, but physicists (and psychologists, and on both sides of the fence regarding their belief in the "paranormal" - even parapsychologists are guilty in this regard) have no problem with talking for days about mystical or spiritual concepts which they obviously haven't made even the slightest study of.
The author is at least somewhat earnest in his attempt to avoid letting his personal beliefs influence his writing on the subject, but at the end of the day anyone even remotely familiar with the spiritual worldview can point out multiple areas where he's made massive assumptions about the nature of phenomena or concepts he obviously has no real understanding of.
It's an absurd double standard - how can you claim to disprove something, or write a piece suggesting ways that it could be proven, when you don't even understand the concept in question? There's something about a scientific education which makes people want to subsume everything to fit into their own worldview, instead of approaching it on it's own ground and then using their scientific understanding to breach the gap between the two where evidence of a genuine phenomenon is found.
Finally, he's preaching to an empty room. It's the self proclaimed skeptics who are constantly trying to disprove the experiences and beliefs of others, then running about crowing in self congratulation when they believe they have done so. Very few spiritual practitioners have any serious interest in setting out on a quest to gain the validation of the physics community or disproving the materialistic reductionism they've concocted as a worldview. They just don't want or need it, which I think rather angers these "skeptics."
The piece is also 15 years or so out of date.
You didn't make a single counterpoint.
Your entire post is just "You don't understand!", without pointing out a single flaw, followed by word salad about how superstitious beliefs are just as true as thins that are actually supported by evidence.
I'm not trying to provide evidence or arguments. I didn't believe in this stuff until I experienced it myself, why would I should expect anyone else to?
All I'm saying is that if someone is going to write a piece about how a theory could possibly be proven, then they should start by gaining a decent understanding of that theory. Seems like the reasonable, scientific thing to do.
Which "theory"? Each area of superstitious pseudoscience has dozens of contradicting forms, because anyone can claim anything and no one has any evidence to back up their claims.
"Spiritual energy" systems included.
> have no problem with talking for days about mystical or spiritual concepts which they obviously haven't made even the slightest study of.
According to whom? Who's the authority on what's right or wrong in the world of mysticism? The Golden Dawn? The catholic Church? Wiccan? Carlos Castaneda?
You're claim requires an objective standard and established authority that simply doesn't exist. You have no basis for claiming anyone is more or less qualified to comment on mysticism precisely because no objective measure of quality exists.
So there is no double standard because there's no basis in the world of mysticism for demonstrating anyone to be right or wrong, unlike physics.
Can anyone explain to a newfaggot real quick what the fuck this is? I'm intrigued but I'm at work so I can't spend lot of time reading about it so a general quick explanation would be much appreciated
It's just a troll. They're not interested in logic, reason or simple conversation. Stop feeding the wretched thing.
>because no objective measure of quality exists.
This is exactly the kind of thing someone would say if they'd never studied mysticism before.
Once you break down the cultural barriers, the different metaphors and mythologizing used to explain concepts and the different techniques used, mystical systems all more or less paint the same portrait of the universe, and they all more or less agree on that point.
You, like the author of that article, are just making wild assumptions based on your brief exposure to concepts you don't understand - which doesn't seem very scientific. Then when you get called out on it, you make up excuses.
No objective measure exists.
Nothing you said refuted that.
The fact that a bunch of "spiritual systems" make the same common mistaken assumptions about everything reveals far more about human psychology and superstition than "spiritual astral energy chakras".
I started doing KKK when I was in high school, but I had to stop when my family found my shit and got freaked out (they're catholic). I'm kind of glad though. Not that I'm superstitious regarding magic, but it's kind of a low level paradigm of looking at the universe. You'll grow out of it eventually.