Query: Do magick and yoga have different goals or do they represent different paths to the same or similar goals?
To suck the dick of a dead gay pedophile. Aleister Crowley was a snake oil salesman with no unique ideas, and he had sex with children. He turned the OTO from a dignified occult order into a homosexual swinger's club, and the fact that his name is still held up as something to aspire to just shows how far we are from getting that dignity back.
Uhh, in the year 2014, we shouldn't be dignifying "occultism" anyway.
We can appreciate the contributions to actual sciences that our ancestors made, while giggling at the ignorance of their day and age and how they dabbled in areas of occult pseudoscience... but dignifying occultism is like dignifying lobotomies.
>Thoughts on Lon Milo DuQuette?
Apparently, an entertainer who missed his calling.
>I'm reading the Chicken Qabalah yet again as a refresher, and I still think.it's the best intro book for Qabalah available.
I've heard that rumor, but haven't read it.
His, Thelemic Magick, was eminently forgettable.
His humour is shit-tier in the Chicken Qabalah, but if youve ever hacked through Papus' tome on the Qabalah, you'll appreciate the presence of any humour at all
His explanations are great though, its well worth a read.
I have his Enochian Vision Magick as well, but I haven't actually read it. It seems to be widely recommended for beginners in Enochian though
>implying occultism isn't glorified pre-scientific-method psychology
>implying modern psychology can help you find spiritual truth, or look inside yourself without distorting it completely with meaningless, unemotional, short-sighted rationalism
Science is great, man. But it's fucking stupid to say everything is absolutely stupid and useless until some scientist publishes a journal that says it isn't. There is literally fucktons of social knowledge science will never bother to understand, or will distort horribly in its attempt to. Science covers mechanical topics really well, but as soon as things start getting a little abstract...
>I have his Enochian Vision Magick as well, but I haven't actually read it. It seems to be widely recommended for beginners in Enochian though
I'm told that it's the best "Enochian for Dummies" currently available, but that DuQuette doesn't really understand all that he discusses.
>But it's fucking stupid to say everything is absolutely stupid and useless until some scientist publishes a journal that says it isn't.
It's extremely unlikely that Scooter, here, knows jack shit about science. His butt hurts. That is all.
>implying anyone here is obligated to prove anything to you when you made the request.
figure it out yourself. read about it, even.
besides, science is so broken. a lot of researchers will admit that. have you ever thought about the fact that science cannot prove absolute truth, and can provide only significance and probability levels... which are purely arbitrary? it's how science works. doesn't that frustrate you? it definitely frustrates scientists.
with science, you can't KNOW anything. but it lets you suspect a million and one things. but you will never KNOW anything.
if you know yourself, at least you know SOMETHING. that's why anyone studies the occult. it all reflects on you. it's like a magnifying glass for looking at yourself.
Regardie can be great, but he should be taken with a pinch of salt. Bear in mind that he wrote stuff like A Garden Of Pomegranates when he was 24 and before he joined the SM, and the fact that he was in the SM for about a year, making his reputation as some kind of GD demigod a little unwanrrented.
That said, I'm a big fan of A Garden Of Pomegranates
>implying anyone here is obligated to prove anything to you when you made the request.
>implying I haven't
I shouldn't even have to explain this... but just because somebody wrote it in a book doesn't make it true.
>but as soon as things start getting a little abstract...
I think you're referring to "untestable hypothesis", which are useless to our understanding of the universe. There's literally know way to know if they're true or not.
This is completely different from the vast majority of things that occultists claim, which is usually
"I can do this!"
"Okay, so do it!"
"No, read the books from my religion and do it yourself!"
"Why can't you do what you just claimed to do?
"*LE TIPS FEDORA*"
I'm looking through the Freemasonry folder on K's Mega, and this is one area I know nothing about. Most of the times I hear about Freemasonry though it's people on chans talking about how it's just a bunch of old people drinking and playing cards and such. So what is the point of Freemasonry, outside of inspiring the format for the OTO and GD and whatnot? Is there anything I can read for its original significance to occultism, its original purpose?
It's a way to build your own character and improve upon your humanist morality. The Masonic system has just been butchered by "occult orders" into being useless and edgy, much like LaVey's butchering of the Enochian keys.
I don't know why this misinformation is so commonly proliferated... Don't you think accounts on the matter would have shown up when he went to court, or even by the tabloids of his time? That shit would not have been easy to hide when the status quo wanted to dig up everything they could on him.. I swear, it's like ignorant people can't even begin to think for themselves.
It would actually be incredibly easy to hide, when you're surrounded by brainwashed religious fanatics.
It's just pathetic that now that we have all the details of his life, there are still people who treat him like the PROPHET OF THE NEW AEON, instead of the drug addled degenerate that he was.
We owe a lot to Regardie, whatever his shortcomings.
>I shouldn't even have to explain this
Then take a hint from Universe and let it go.
>If it's in the Astral, it's not gay.
No, it was definitely gay.
>Freemasons are the spirit of American freedom.
Actually, I agree. It's a perennial American tradition and still surprisingly potent.
>It would actually be incredibly easy to hide, when you're surrounded by brainwashed religious fanatics.
We don't need to know the contents of your wankbank. Try to have some class.
I want to buy a grease pencil to write sigils on my mirror that I can later erase. Are grease pencils the pencils with the wrapped core? I don't want to fuck up my black mirror. Thanks in advance for any advice.
>TWO NEW GRAND LODGES ESTABLISHED
>Along with the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia, the total number of Grand Lodges now stands at five. Beyond the accomplishments of these countries individually, this represents a significant milestone in the development of the Order overall. According to the International Bylaws of Ordo Templi Orientis:
>Once the Acting O.H.O. has established five (5) independent Grand Lodges under the governance of appointed National Grand Masters General, the National Grand Masters General shall have the power to convene an election of a de jure O.H.O., by simple majority. If this meeting is not held within a year and a day after the appointment of the fifth National Grand Master General, then the acting O.H.O. shall have the power to call it.
>Fulfillment of this provision will complete the transitional phase of the Order's constitutional re-establishment as initiated by the previous Caliph Hymenaeus Alpha.
Is Billy Breeze about to get BTFO???
So how about them japs? I've done a little research and read a good bit of folklore, and I'm curious what topic I need to research to start understanding their demons and magic. Are there any western occultists that have specialized in far eastern practices? It seems like everything else is covered, from Hawaiians to south Americans, and Tribal Africa to Aboriginal dream world. Anyone else curious?
I Breeze gets BTFO'd and they establish new policies (actual good ones) in place, I am going to be very happy. But I doubt that'll happen. Given Breeze's grasp on the XI's, he'll probably have them vote for himself.
I'll be damned.
>Are there any western occultists that have specialized in far eastern practices?
Yes, there are, but I am unconvinced that such practices, lifted out of their original cultural context, can have as much power as some native practice.
They've been curiously active in the Balkans.
>I'm not too familiar with OTO, what's the issue here?
The issue is that Breeze has been de facto head since the late 1980s. This latest development means that there will now be an election to determine the new head and it may not be Breeze. The question is whether he has sufficient support among the elective Grand Masters to keep his position.
Seems to me that establishing the fifth grand lodge was probably done with his consent.
>Does this opinion come from personal experience?
Yes and no. I find that I am drawn toward Eastern philosophies and spiritual practices, but have never been able to wholly abandon the Western trad. It's a part of me, in a way that Zhuang-Lao Daoism, for instance, may never be.
Abramelin counsels that you must work within your own native, spiritual framework.
That said, Joel Biroco is an expert on the Yijing and has studied Chinese folk magic, with some success.
>The question is whether he has sufficient support among the elective Grand Masters to keep his position.
The thing is, remember that he did have them all sign loyalty papers. So yea, he does have support.
That was before they had a vote. I think we should never underestimate the capacity of Theletubbies to eat their own. People of any meaningful integrity would have never made it to the top.
I'll look that guy up.
The native people of my area were the karankawa, who were cannibals. I don't know much about their spirits, but I get the feeling I'd rather stick with the white mans imports, given the option. I can't imagine their gods or demons being too friendly to my kind.
I appreciate your input.
Some people think that the human life is the peak of the evolution, it is not, more like a crossroads point where you can actually decide between running after carnal desires and going back down where you can run after them as you please, or make the conscious choice of serving the Lord.
I'm not a virgin for I too used to be interested only in fulfilling my own desires. Not anymore though! :)
So anyone here summoned a demon from goetia successfully ?
If so please i'd like to hear the tale.
Was it ever established as to why Waite felt the need to switch Strength and Justice in the Rider-Waite deck?
Was it due to the zodiac correspondences, or was it something else?
Incidentally, I was doing a bit of work with the Paulina tarot earlier, I keep forgetting how ugly RW is by comparison
I've heard a number of times that the switch was to make the cards sync with astrology better. Personally, I don't care either way since I use them almost exclusively for intuitive divination, and don't invest much into the numbers of the major arcana.
I think it's swapped in the thoth deck, and I'd assume decks like the Marseilles that is supposedly older than the rw have the original order as well.
It's probably only important that you use the same deck as the tradition whose work you're studying. Beyond that, they are ultimately just a collection of symbols. You're shuffling them anyway, so their order is only important if that's a part of your method.
Do you think the end is near?
It seem that they are pissed with humankind.
And no, im not talking from a christian perspective.
What would happen?
Also is there some app or program to use the Tarot? I know is not the same, but in my country i cant find the Thoth deck and i really want to learn it.
You don't have Amazon In your country? I can't name an app off the top of my head, but I've seen them on Google play, and I have an old Windows 9x program on my computer that I used to learn some spreads. I got the program on tpb. I think aeclectictarot.com has an app.
Also, if you have a printer you could probably print a deck. Just get some rigid paper.
ILLEGAL SCANNING & DOWNLOADING - CAUTION
"Between Spaces" is a magical book produced by magickal people, therefore it is under magickal guardianship.
Certain mundane protection measures have also been put in place on each and every book.
These Temple Papers have been released as an independent discrete safe package.
Illegal copies uploaded for free downloading will be traced back to the original purchaser.
Therefore, we advise against loaning your book as you will be held responsible should an illegal scanned copy be discovered.
Those who download illegal copies may not have the complete copy, may be missing certain keys or TNS may put in red herrings. You may THINK you have the complete copy.
Those that have downloaded illegally will, at the very least, have their knuckles barked. At the very least.
The magickians behind TNS have "flexible morality". This should be born in mind.
YOU ALL CURSED NIGGAS
Why does the Golden Dawn equate swords with air, and wands with fire?
To me that always seemed backwards.
Fire is the element of destruction and change; a sword is a tool of destruction and change.
Air is the element of knowledge and wisdom; a wand (or staff) denotes authority and wisdom.
I don't think it's only the golden dawn. Swords cut things in two, they separate things, like the reason does. Reason can be just as destructive as anything else. Fire comes from wood, and it can be constructive. We stop wasting a lot of time eating when we started eating cooked food, for one. Fire is intuition, not your run of the mill method of knowledge.
-Swords cut. It is the most inherent quality of the analytical function of the mind. Information is restriction.
-Wands are a living thing. Vital energy behind creation, development and growing -> fire
>Swords cut things in two, they separate things, like the reason does.
That's how I understand it. The sword represents analysis, the reduction of something to its constituent parts.
Yes, they do.
Why aren't you in school?
Pretty cool how in the Marseille deck, each Ace has a hint of a different suit
Like, you can put the Sword piercing the Cup (notice the tip of the sword in the Cup)
Or, the Wand comes from the Pentacle/Coin
Where would one start if one wished to initiate oneself in the mysteries of magic as a means of transcendence? Does it go any further than contemplation and meditation, relying on invocations and entities or does it restrict itself to self-knowledge?
I've been reading introductory books on alchemy, but there are very few instructions on practice aside from pranayama and some forms of meditation.
My goal is to overcome human nature and participate in the nature of the divine world.
True understanding of magic also liberates us from the physical world.
I don't think it has to be Yoga necessarily, but a form of physical discipline is required to first discipline the mind, which you can then use to further yourself spiritually.
>You have two questions left, mortal.
So, you're skipping?
>My goal is to overcome human nature and participate in the nature of the divine world.
Human nature is a part of the divine world.
>True understanding of magic also liberates us from the physical world.
How does that work, exactly?
>I don't think it has to be Yoga necessarily, but a form of physical discipline is required to first discipline the mind,
Okay, what is yoga, then?
>To me that always seemed backwards.
Don't try to force yourself into their mindset if it doesn't work for you. Not everyone uses the same elemental correspondences, they're just arbitrary systems.
What youve described is pretty much the goal of the Western Mystery Tradition.
Start looking into Qabalah, Tarot and Astrology, theyre all interconnected. That'll help you get your feet wet
I have no mother.
That was your last question.
Your energy is now mine to control.
You shall be drained in order to extend my influence, until your useless husk of an existence is discarded.
So it shall pass
>How does that work, exactly?
Many ways. Primarily to understand physical reality is nothing but energy and thought. Magic taps into that spiritual non-physical aspect of ourself which is our true nature that Yoga also tries to get us back in touch with. The bodies we wear from life to life just being meat suits on top of it.
So, you've been liberated from your "meat suit"?
Do you have to actually do anything or is "true understanding" enough to get out of your "meat suit"?
Ladder of Lights, by William G Gray
In the LBRP why is air east, fire south, water west, earth north?
Wouldn't it make more sense to have fire north, water east, air south, and earth west, to correspond with the cardinal signs in astrology?
You really seem to be fixated on the meat suit thing.
The idea from Hinduism that Yoga carries is that we are spiritual beings first, and we get entangled in the physical world when we're incarnated here. Yoga and other practices are intended to get us back to understanding our true nature.
You realize those are all just symbols, right? Meant to help you focus and enter a magical mindset?
It seems like these occult threads always revolve around symbolism and intellectual masturbation, when magic is supposed to be about the spirit, about ACTION.
>Reading Nag Hammadi Scriptures
>Book called "On the Origin of the World"
>References to Greek magical papyri
>References to 49 evil spirits created by the demiurge described in "The Book of Solomon"
>Read/heard somewhere a while ago that before there were 72 spirits in the Ars Goetia, there was 49 and the text changed over time (can't remember where I heard this though)
So gnostics did goetic magick? I would say the goal of gnostics is very similar to the goal of a yogi, unity with the supreme God.
So yes, magick and yoga can have the same goals but not always. As Crowley says in Book 4:
>any will but that to give up the self to the Beloved is Black Magick
>In the LBRP why is air east, fire south, water west, earth north?
These are the attributions that, among other, John Dee used and since some of his material was adopted at the heart of the HOGD it's fitting to use these attributions.
They work for me, since they agree reasonably well with the four winds as they manifest in my environment.
>We already got too many people playing as wizards... maybe a bard?
Just be yourself. You'll be surprised.>
>So gnostics did goetic magick?
Not as such, but there's a tenuous relationship between the two.
>I would say the goal of gnostics is very similar to the goal of a yogi, unity with the supreme God.
Something like that.
>So yes, magick and yoga can have the same goals but not always. As Crowley says in Book 4:
I think that they can have the same goal, yes.
I try to strike a happy balance between structure and spontaneity. Ceremonial magic was written with the ancient mindset that the universe is deterministic and machine-like; I think the heavy insistence on order and protocol is stifling.
>I wonder if they wouldn't have less noise than here, even being FB and all.
They do. I'm in a couple of really good ones. Like watching paint dry.
>Ceremonial magic was written with the ancient mindset that the universe is deterministic and machine-like;
Maybe. You are free to interpret it that way, if you need to. I don't think all ceremonialists see it that way, surely.
Which ones are good. As bad as FB can be, I get some Archaelogy, Ancient Egypt, Classical wisdom and other interesting feeds.They got nice pics, too. If people here weren't such dolts I'd post pics I took from the Soulful Creatures show. Lots of animal mummies and small Egyptian figurines and art. Very cozy and touching. But you people aren't really worth my while sorry to say.
What does the 19th century have to do with the Middle Ages? I purposefully avoided the cliche, first because I see a lot of positive things in that period second because the victorian 19th is a more apt comparison to the prudish old wives who post here.
Just as your shit is.
I see. I was thinking you were drawing a comparison to the rates of growth (due to your mentioning the evolution of technology and specific period of time), rather than just straight human nature.
what do you mean??? i've had this idea in my head for a year now and it was a pretty be shock when i heard some dude that dated the same girl as me is now doing what i should have been doing...
Astrology uses the tropical zodiac, which is an imaginary circle around the earth. Why because it's a reference point from which we can relate the movements of the celestial bodies with events on earth. Vedic Astrology is not Vedic, it's Western Astrology introduced in India by the time of Alexander. The signs and planets are exactly the same, with hindu names. I don't know about Dion Fortune, but Astronomy/Astrology is the first science and the foundation of occult knowledge. So above, so bellow. Our ancestors observed the stars and related their cycles with the cycles of events in nature. Besides, scientists won't disagree with the fact that we all come from the stars and are made of the exact same stuff stars are made.
>Why because it's a reference point from which we can relate the movements of the celestial bodies with events on earth.
Only in terms of time keeping. The part that's "astrology" is just silly superstition that doesn't work.
>Besides, scientists won't disagree with the fact that we all come from the stars and are made of the exact same stuff stars are made.
That isn't any proof whatsoever of astrology possibly being real.