Basically, >SM64 * the original 3D platformer and collect-a-thon * gameplay mechanics were pretty good -- particularly movement however: * level design tended towards abstractness and not towards everything fitting together * weirdly reverent to old Mario games (getting one star at a time = playing one Super Mario course at a time), while also being very irreverent (no(?) hidden pipe areas, and obviously, Princess is in the same castle)
>BK: * Perhaps a "safe" alternative to SM64, but it took most of SM64's strengths and fixed most of its weaker points * For example, more cohesive level design * Arguably a better story: in any case, story elements and Grunty are more (and better) integrated into the game than Bowser in SM64
BK didn't really reinvent the wheel, which takes some points off, but I think it's pretty great for what it is.
>>2930728 BK >have to jump around, can't isolate triangles t1-t6 >multiple full a-presses required to complete levels and get jiggies >can't build up massive speed and launch over multiple QPU's while remaining aligned
>>2931558 >Mario 64. It gets the final edge by being way more fun to complete than BK. I find the opposite true for me personally, though not without a few personal gripes I have with it. Still I find both games pretty fun in their own ways.
It's actually kind of hard to compare them. The two games have quite different level design from each other. If anyone prefers one over the other, I respect that, but there's definitely no conclusive answer.
I'm not trying to start an argument, but I don't think that Mario 64 is a collects thin at all. You collect stars and coins, and that's really it. Gaining stars really is just a metaphor for the end of a level, like the flagpole in SMB, but also provode access to later areas, which gives players a constant short term goal and allows the levels to be played in any order while still gradually increasing the difficulty. I don't think anyone will complain about that. And really, if you think about it, the way stars were handled was revolutionary for the reasons I mentioned. The other collect able is coins, a fixture of the series. Collecting them is sometimes the goal, and other times they provide the player with extra lives.
When I think "collectathon", I think of DK64, where you have like 100 different things of varying importance to collect.
I haven't played Tooie in like ten years, but wasn't there a lot of ways to fast travel? Like mole holes you could use to warp and trains you could ride? I don't remember having a problem backtracking when I played it, but like I said, it's been a while.
...wait a minute. now that I think of it, it's actually been more like 14/15 years...
>>2932330 If you try to complete it there is a hell of a lot of backtracking. If you switch areas in Tooie the game fades to black and loads the next area. It isn't too long but you need to do it so many times that it becomes pure madness. I didn't remember that much backtracking too till I attempted to complete the game.
>>2932330 Yeah, there were warp points both in levels and in the overworld. I don't really see "backtracking" as something to complain about in any of these 3D platformers, even DK64 (well, maybe you could complain about it in DK64). You're pretty much always going somewhere new and with new abilities in your inventory, it's not like the game is making you do the same thing over and over. It just seems like a non-issue to me.
>>2933456 They are done, Bayonetta and Fire Emblem bishie #5 are confirmed to be the last characters.
I'd suspect Banjo not being popular enough in Japan is a big part of it. It could also just be fuckery from some Microsoft chair who doesn't want Banjo to be seen on any other system. Which is retarded since they aren't doing anything with him, but it's the kind of thing that happens. I suspect that's why we didn't see Snake return despite high fan demand, Kojima was why he appeared in Brawl and with him gone and a bag of dicks being in charge of Konami the company probably just doesnt want to go through the legal/licensing hassle.
>>2930728 I keep replaying Mario 64 every now and then.
Haven't touched my BK cartridge in years.
On that basis, Mario 64.
This being said, >>2930885 raises some good points - some M64 levels - rainbow road in particular - are... incoherent messes. Abstract, as he puts it, and he's right. There's no doubt that BK's presentation is vastly superior. It has more character.
But that doesn't make up for the actual platforming being mediocre and nowhere near as good as M64s. Not to mention that having to get a shitton of notes (M64: Coins are entirely optional, and the levels always have more coins than you need for the star) is a bloody chore and not even remotely fun.
M64's 100 coin stars aren't usually fun, either, but BK's notes are worse.
There ARE things BK did right and which M64 neglected, but broadly speaking - when I play a platformer, I care more about the actual platforming than I do about the presentation.
BK isn't a bad game. But as a platformer? It's simply not in the same league as BK.
Banjo Kazooie by far. I have no nostalgic attatchment to either and have played both relatively recently and BK has ten times more polish, controls better, music is on par for both, immersive world, and all rare games have gorgeous graphics, but I'll give Mario 64 some credit for it being a launch title. I completed BK 100% because the game was worth it. Mario has slippery controls compared to Banjo's tight maneuvers, throwing Mario's previously precise controls out the window. Mario 64 invented the collectathon, Banjo perfected it.
Banjo Tooie is sitting next to my TV, ready to be played right after i finish CBFD.
I'd say I personally think BK is a better game, except once you 100% it you aren't going to want to touch it for a while again. Mario64 is probably easier to jump back into because there aren't as many tedious collecting parts to go through.
64 feels more repetitive because of how you get spit outside when getting a star, where BK lets you do it all in one go if you wanted. BK has a more coherent style in each level. Mario is more mobile/fun to control.
>>2936981 >>2936981 >64 feels more repetitive because of how you get spit outside when getting a star, Eh. That's pretty minor.
Both games have distinctive level themes. Essentially you do the same types of things, using the character's abilities to collect shit. I think Banjo offers more variety in the way of things to do within the levels to get the items, and it also has more in-depth abilities and more collectibles in general. However, the overall experience is more linear because of the way certain abilities have to be unlocked over time. Whether that's good or bad depends how you look at it. You could argue Banjo features a better sense of progression, maybe, right? Mario does this to a lesser extent with the caps, but mostly everything Mario's capable of doing in-game, he's capable of doing right from the getgo. And it's an impressive list of shit compared to what Banjo can do at the start. The major difference for me is the feel of the controls. Mario is of course more responsive in that department. A lot of work clearly went into perfecting his movement as much as possible and it really shows. Not that Banjo controls bad, but I suspect some of that development time and money instead went into giving him more abilities. Because he has more abilities, but his controls feel sluggish.
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