>>2905127 I think the atmosphere of the game in general still holds up as interesting in 2016. Considering the limitations of the n64, the world of OOT is still intriguing and mysterious even today I find, due to great graphic design and music/ sound design.
Also, the n64 controller was perfect for the game, simple A and B main buttons, C buttons for items, Z for targeting, it still feels great today.
>>2905127 The Forest Temple is still probably my favorite dungeon from any Zelda game. The combo of the art direction and the music is great. Really that entire section when you come out of the Temple of Time, all the way from Hyrule Castle Town to the Forest Temple, is very well done and hammers home how stark the contrast is between child Link's innocent colorful world and adult Link's dark and mysterious one.
I don't think I could say anything that hasn't been said countless times already.
By the way I really recommend reading the Iwata Asks series on Ocarina of Time 3D, there's at least 3 of them, one with the original N64 team, another with the sound team, and then with the Grezzo team who did the 3D remake.
I especially like this part with one of the programmers and managers of the remake:
>Tonooka: Well, when I received the old program, I thought that all of the creators must have been in high spirits. In the comments box of the source program, someone had written something like, "We got an extension. I'm worried about my bonus. But at least now we can make this." (laughs)
>Iwata: Huh? Really?!
>Tonooka: Yeah. (laughs) And that enthusiasm of the programmers back then inspired us.
>Iwata: It would be hard to hold back after seeing that.
>Tonooka: Absolutely. (laughs) So we really dedicated ourselves to it. And while it applies to the whole Legend of Zelda series, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time feels handmade. Usually, programmers like to make a system and rules, but The Legend of Zelda isn't a game to quietly conform to those things. The source program itself feels handmade down to the finest details.
>Iwata: It isn't systematic. It's a conglomeration of elements made by individual craftsmen, but a conglomeration that hangs together as a total.
>Tonooka: That's right. When players get their hands on it, the creators' passion comes across. That may be why players rate it so highly.
>>2905227 Not OP, but why? This game has shifted slightly away from being overrated towards overhated in recent years, as it's become trendier to pick on classic games and take them down a peg. Plus, a lot of discussion on /vr/ tends towards negativity and criticism, so why not have a thread about explicitly positive things for once?
>>2905224 >Usually, programmers like to make a system and rules, but The Legend of Zelda isn't a game to quietly conform to those things. The source program itself feels handmade down to the finest details.
Interesting. I remember reading a quote in Nintendo Power a long time ago from one of the people who worked on OoT, maybe it was Miyamoto, maybe it was someone else, but they said something like this (paraphrasing from memory):
"So I asked that other development team, 'why don't you include this feature in your level?' And they said, 'our tools can't do that, the level editor can't do that.' So I decided we wouldn't take that approach with Ocarina of Time. We wouldn't let our tools stand in our way, if there was something we wanted to do, we would do it."
>pond water >river water >lake water >well water >temple water >Blue Chu Water A.K.A. Morpha (this explains why there are only a set number in TWW) >valley water >soup water >green acid water with hands >green acid water without hands >normal acid water >cave water (the shortcut after you kill the White Wolfos) >fairy fountain water
In all of them, bottled fish will react the same way. Swim up and down as many times as approx 20 seconds allows, and then start to disappear.
You cannot put water in a bottle in OoT. Only in MM. However you can make it rain. Doing so will cause a Magic Bean Sprout to stretch out like the beanstalks in Mario and shower you with rupees.
Weather was once a major component of Ocarina of Time. Not long before the game came out, the Fishing Hole was supposed to have "seasons." Dry, rainy, muddy and these would affect the way the fish behaved. To some degree the latter bit (fish behavior) is still in the game if you enter at dusk, but the seasons was left out.
As a child there are two Hylian Loaches after you have earned the Heart Piece by catching a 10lber, while as adult Link there is one. You will still get the Golden Scale even if you catch it with the illegal sinking lure, however doing so will brand your record as "Caught with illegal Sinking Lure." Ergo, to get a true 100% unblemished run, one needs to catch a loach without the lure, and steal and sink the Fisherman's Hat. Doing the latter will make him lose it even during the end credits.
Link can swim faster by tapping B. As a child if you try to reach the bottom of the tank in the Lakeside Laboratory, you will be too short of stature even with the Golden Scale.
>>2905285 >"So I asked that other development team, 'why don't you include this feature in your level?' And they said, 'our tools can't do that, the level editor can't do that.' So I decided we wouldn't take that approach with Ocarina of Time. We wouldn't let our tools stand in our way, if there was something we wanted to do, we would do it."
I can only imagine the hell the programmers went through having to rewrite tons of code just to include a feature that should've been specified during the design phase of the game and being forced to listen to the lectures of clueless designers on how to write code.
It's kinda interesting how they added stuff with no purpose to just try and get people to toy around with it. There's no guarantee anybody would ever even try it, I'm sure for most people realizing you can cut the signs occurred by accident. I always loved little details like those in games, it really helps to make the game feel like a living breathing world.
Zelda OOT is THE zelda game. Its sad, everyone of the sages are in this realm. The game doesnt tell you people are dead...but you just know when darunia enters volvagias room, when salia is Missing at the wood temple... I always found this hard and hearttouching, that all your friends dead somehow, you save the world for the worlds sake. Its a weird feeling i cant describe.
There is this perfect gap between the story as it is and leaving stuff for us to think about the game. Variety of dungeons is also something iv never see again to this day. So memorable, the wood temple is my all time favorite. You are adult link and you know shit is really serious now. Its just a masterpiece. Its also a very creative universe! Look at all characters, i mean the expression of faces like the guy in kakariko whos sitting at the tree on night. They dont talk just text, everything in this game leaves a part for us of imagination, like a good book. Thats what is still gr8 today. Nowadays u see everything in perfect visiuls and cinematics. No more room for imagination in todays games, its like watching movies.
About the sages being dead, I also noticed in the ending sequence when everyone is celebrating, the Zora king and Mido are the only ones that are sad sitting in a corner, then Mido notice the lights in the sky that end up being the Sages looking at Hyrule from afar, pretty moving.
>>2906170 Yes! Both are crying about their losses a really powerful scene. Stuff is deep mate. Time will turn back, link will be young again as far as we now, zelda put him back in time and then follows MM. I wonder if they still dead, even though link has been sent back, because the destiny of the sages.
>>2906170 Actually he notices lights sparkling by his shoulder as if Saria was there and tapped him or said something to him. Then he looks up and sees the lights soaring overhead.
But right, it is pretty moving. One of the reasons that it makes me mad when people suggest Hyrule Historia is canon, because Rauru is dead. The game cannot stress this enough short of holding up a neon sign. It's why all the Sages meet you inside the Chamber of Sages, which like the Light Temple it's inside of, is ethereal. They go there because they've lost their real bodies (Nabooru literally dies in front of you), and like ALttP only discover who they are after they've died. Also, like ALttP there's no way out of the Dark World unless you're Link (he does wish them back at the end, but he doesn't have this luxury in OoT).
If Rauru is flying around Hyrule as an owl in his spare time and not keeping alive the "last stronghold against Ganon," the story makes no sense.
>What are the things that still make this game unique and memorable in 2016?
Seriously, nothing. It was a pretty forgettable Zelda and only popular because it happened to be the first Zelda of a lot of people.
The world is pretty dull. No more secrets (or even little puzzles) on every screen. The secrets aren't really as exciting as in previous entries. No more cool extra items which aren't really necessary but just fun to fool around with like the ice rod. Epona might be cool, but having a horse only made you realize how fucking empty everything is.
On the plus side it's still very much playable and the controls are as good as it gets with ~20 fps.
>>2906250 >The world is pretty dull. No more secrets (or even little puzzles) on every screen. There is a secret or puzzle in every location in OoT. Kokiri Forest has a bunch of one-time invisible rupees. Goron City has that hidden grotto with Business Scrubs. Zora's Domain has the chest behind the waterfall. >The secrets aren't really as exciting as in previous entries. No more cool extra items which aren't really necessary but just fun to fool around with like the ice rod. Epona. >Epona might be cool, but having a horse only made you realize... empty. Well if you had a Rumble Pak and rode around on Epona you would be able to detect grottos and whatnot. Also, Big Poe hunting was awesome. I think it's ingenious the way they work only within a set range, and if you walk out of the range they disappear.
>>2906250 >fishing rod >ice arrows/biggoron/fire arrow/choosing armor >masks (reactions of npcs) >this fucking runner u never beat I mean its not that much but not less then previous games and im sure u can find more There is a lot to discover..
>>2905991 To be honest, as a programmer myself, I don't think OoT could have been done any other way, and it's precisely because of this that it is what it is. The level designers and animators face the same problem, everything in the game is necessarily dependent on a ton of other aspects of itself in order to work, and you can see that when areas had to be remade when the mechanics changed. I've always noticed that OoT didn't seem to feel like it has an engine to speak of, each part of it just works the unique way it's supposed to, without fluff or the sense that content has been created to fill something in. Everything it tightly coupled, and that's why I don't think it would be easy for a modern, particularly western developer, to replicate what it achieved.
>>2906250 >The world is pretty dull. >No more cool extra items
Haven't played this game in years but seriously? I'm just going to fire these off:
Epona Bombchus 5 or 6 different Masks Elemental Arrows (the ice arrows had a miniature dungeon to go through just to get them and the fire arrows were a nifty little secret as well) Biggoron Sword (had an entire side-quest line) Secrets to unveil with bean seeds and bottled spiders. Those songs like the day/night changing song hidden in the graveyard. In that same area is another hidden area beneath a grave where you can get a free Hylian shield. Making up a song of your own with the Scarecrow fellow to hookshot to otherwise inaccessible areas as well. The secret areas detected by the rumble pack. The skulltula tokens that you can collect to redeem prizes from the house of spiders. Various minigames like the bow shooting or that treasure chest one you could cheat on with the lens of truth. Also those three magic objects that cast a ball of fire around you or let you teleport in dungeons.
>>2906697 Some of those are necessary though. If you want to make a complete list of OoT non-essentials it entails the following:
>Epona and race for a cow. >Running Man >Gerudo Training Grounds >Biggoron Sword >Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love (Din's Fire is necessary for the spike trap in Shadow Temple unless you buffer through it by waking the ReDead) >House of Skulltula >Happy Mask Shop (btw there are 8 masks) >Fishing Hole >Magic Bean Sprouts >Scarecrow's Song and Pierre's Song >Big Fairy locations (I think there are 8: the pond in Hyrule Field, the Zora's Domain shortcut, the flagpole on Death Mountain, under the first Beamos in the Shadow Temple, again on the platform where you fight the two Stalfos, one in Ice Cavern, in the grotto in the road to the Lake Hylia, inside Gerudo Training Grounds)
That's it. You could go on a stretch and say things like finding all the Business Scrubs is also a personal sidequest since there are some obscure ones (the one that sells you Red Potion as a child), but everything else I could just main-game content.
Ocarina of Time does video game storytelling exceptionally well because of it's presentation through gameplay. It's not just cutscene after cutscene, the player moves the story along and discovers new things as the game progresses and the player explores more. In my opinion, this is where Majora's Mask has the edge over Ocarina; Majora's Mask is almost entirely driven by gameplay after the first cycle, making it a much more personal experience. Still, both games are all-time favorites and are really what got me into retro gaming (after beating OoT and MM, I more Nintendo systems so I could play all the Zelda games, and it took off from there).
>>2906250 OoT was my fifth Zelda (after LA, MM, and the two Oracle games), and it immediately became my favorite when I finally played it. It's not *just* nostalgia that makes people like it.
Granted, as the years have gone on I've appreciated MM more and more to the point where I probably rank it above OoT. The last time I revisited OoT, I realized how much smaller the world actually is, compared to how big it felt when I was a kid. I still think it has some of the better dungeons in the series though.
>>2905127 The things about Ocarina of Time that stands out to me is the sequence breaking.
Maybe sequence breaking isn't the right word, but the game (intentionally?) gives you a lot of choice in how you progress. You can switch around temple orders and do all sorts of cool things in between. Modern Zelda games feel a lot more railroaded in comparison.
>>2905127 >What do you think it did right? atmosphere. controls
>What are the things in this game that to this day haven't been matched or surpassed?
On a technical level: nothing. Everything oot did that's arguably "unsurpassed" is shit related to plot and game design, which are subjective elements and thus too subject to my own biases to be able to be accurately described.
>What are the things that still make this game unique and memorable in 2016?
For me, it's sheik's diatribes about time passing, and the overarching story about a boy who becomes a man and watches time pass.
that is, the plot strikes a chord with me.
Also, glitches. Every time I play oot in the modern age, I play it to do forest escapes, dupe bottles or generally fuck everything up.
>>2906721 >>2908602 >>2908620 Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can get through the game as long as you have at least Dins Fire OR fire arrows, but you need to have at least one of them if you aren't exploiting glitches or something. So they're both sort of pseudo-optional, since you need at least one.
>>2908586 >Modern Zelda games feel a lot more railroaded in comparison. You might like A Link Between Worlds then. It allows you to do a lot of the temples out of order. I'm fairly certain the Wii U game coming out is going to allow you to do the same as well.
I didn't own OoT back in the day, I only ever played it at my brother's friend's house. It was interesting naturally, being a big adventure game that I couldn't play just any time I wanted, but it was only a few years ago that I took the effort to play it all the way through. I don't play any modern PC or console games today, so for me it's almost like something fairly new that I can carry around on my laptop for whenever the mood strikes me, and it's great for that. I love the adventurousness of it. I love that not everything you need to do is obvious like in a lot of games, even a lot of its contemporaries.
I've tried to start up MM several times, but it just doesn't invoke the same kind of feeling; I guess it's a very obviously sequelly continuation. Maybe I'll try again soon though.
>>2908704 Alright. I guess I'll start with mine for the sake of keeping it chronological, so sorry if the first few are kind of crappy. Each one will be split up into a few posts. --
The Deku Tree has one part to it that I really like and which frames the rest of the dungeon, and really the rest of the game, in a certain context.
I’m talking about the spiderweb you have to jump through. It challenges the player in a way I haven’t seen many games do before. Keep in mind what I’m referencing here is only what I have observed myself, but I have seen a number of people play through the beginning of OOT and I think I’ve seen enough to draw some conclusions about how this area works.
First of all, nearly every first-time player falls at least once when they are climbing the spiral ramp in the deku tree. This section of the game establishes that fall damage is a thing.
You get the slingshot, do some puzzles, yadda yadda blah blah. But you can only progress to a certain point going up. The way the ledges at the top of the ramp lead out naturally draws the player out towards the center of the room, where the camera changes its position and shows that there is something beneath the spiderweb far below. Note that the way the camera shifts emphasizes how far away you are from the ground, emphasizing the danger of falling off and hinting to players who haven’t fallen off ledges that fall damage exists in this game. Do you risk the damage and jump? The cautious players I’ve seen often look for something they may have missed, some alternate route that does not require them to take the risk. Other players just jump off intuitively. One thing is true of players who play through the game for the first time – you must throw caution to the wind to continue.
>>2908628 They do burn out. Really fast. That method he used is probably cutting it as close as possible (I forget how many seconds the torches last). The cool thing is when you shoot an arrow through a torch it reignites it which is what makes the whole thing possible. Personally I use a different method. I stand in a particular spot where I have the most torches in range. Then I strategically shoot only four Fire Arrows, and with those I quickly light the rest. It's a lot harder, but quicker, and more satisfying.
>>2908629 No. You need Din's Fire. You can't substitute the Fire Arrows for it because the only way to burn the spike trap is with it. It is 99% likely that this is an oversight from back when the game used medallions, hence why entering the temple has the insignia of the Fire element. Presumably, the Fire Medallion was a weaker Din's Fire. There is still a remnant of the original set-up to enter the Shadow Temple, but even with Din's Fire you can't enter it.
Admittedly this doesn’t work if you’re thinking “lol it’s just a game whatever”, but I’m assuming a certain level of immersion here. I’m also assuming you don’t just look up a guide, which the majority of players didn’t have immediate free access to when this game came out.
My point is, you need to have courage to progress past this part of the game. You have to take a risk, knowing that there are in-game consequences if you are wrong. It could punish you in the most natural way a game like this can – with damage. But the player is unable to progress until they make the leap. It may be in a small way, but this actually challenges the player on a personal level. And I think that’s incredible. It’s not the kind of “personal” challenge games with good or evil dialogue options give you, it’s one that is delivered through pure gameplay. Other than games in the horror genre, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game that managed to do this.
And that frames the rest of the Deku Tree dungeon. It’s the only one of the original three child dungeons that is meant to be scary, or at least traditionally scary. Dodongo’s cavern and Jabu Jabu are disturbing in their own ways, but the Deku Tree is the only one that is blatantly creepy. It’s full of giant spiders and eyeball monsters, it’s the first dark area in the game, and is a stark contrast from Kokiri Village. It’s creepy, but it’s also only creepy. It’s far from being as bad as the bottom of the well or the shadow temple, it’s scary in a “kid” kind of way. Considering the challenge of the spiderweb, I do think that the purpose of this area (beyond serving as a tutorial dungeon, which it also excels at) is to establish the theme of courage, to make Link (and by extension the player) perform brave actions.
>>2908734 And when you finish the dungeon, that’s exactly what the Deku Tree says. You couldn’t save him, he only sent you in there to test your courage. Then the Deku Tree, the force that sustained the world of Link’s childhood, dies, and it’s time for Link to leave that place and journey out into the world. Link being forced to start maturing here (a sort of loss of innocence) and his expulsion from that safe child-world because of events that involved a tree make me think of the Book of Genesis and the Garden of Eden, but that’s probably reading into things too deeply.
>>2908735 The best idea I can come up with for Dodongo’s Cavern is that it's supposed to give you a sense of being out of your league. The main chamber of the dungeon is huge, and if you look at your surroundings you'll notice the spine and ribcage of a HUGE AS FUCK dodongo are what hold up the ceiling and upper walls of the chamber. It's possibly that dodongo's head that you throw bombs into to move forward.
After leaving the forest you're confronted with a certain sense of scale. Hyrule Field is wide and open, and the music of that area gives you this sense of adventure, going out into the big world and exploring. Castle Town is meant to be this huge, hustle and bustle type city with lots of people, even if you do only get to see a small part of the whole. Zelda imparts you on a great quest. You climb a massive mountain. The scope of everything starts to increase, though there are smaller moments inbetween (like sneaking past the guards, which is presented in a cute and childish sort of way, or going back to visit Saria).
Dodongo's Cavern is when all of this is perhaps meant to feel out of your league, to dwarf you in size. The new sense of freedom, the size of the world you're in and the weight of your task suddenly become intimidating in their scope. This idea fits with the boss of the dungeon. Gohma is creepy and Barinade is disgusting, but King Dodongo is intimidating due to his sheer massive size. It's the second largest enemy in the game, after Bongo Bongo, who doesn't use most of his body to fight anyway. You're just a kid, going up against a dragon.
But then you overcome, and the gorons welcome you to their tribe and call you brother, and I'm pretty sure this is when Darunia starts to refer to you as a man, though I really can't remember with certainty.
I don't know what the fuck I was thinking when I did the writeup for JabuJabu and I hope it doesn't derail the thread.
Alright, this is going to get a little Freudian.
JabuJabu is the only dungeon in which you have a companion. You have to escort a fishgirl, who starts off by being bratty towards you but clearly develops feelings for you by the end of the dungeon. You receive her engagement ring, and are entered into an agreement to meet with her in the future as adults. Basically, this is the part of growing up when Link is confronted with a girl in a non-platonic way.
JabuJabu is a dungeon that is very intimate, but in a very uncomfortable way. First of all, you are wandering around inside of something else’s body. Note that Ruto says she has been in there plenty of times before, and is used to that place. You are the stranger here, but this place is natural to her. There are heavy breathing noises throughout the entire dungeon. The bass of the song is a heartbeat. And you’re wandering around with a girl in here trying to find her engagement ring. The symbolism seems pretty blunt, and if this story was in any medium other than a game I think this would have been recognized a long time ago.
Also note that in the Master Quest version of the dungeon there are cow heads sticking out of the walls that you can get milk from. This seems like a pretty random element unless the dungeon is supposed to represent a woman’s body.
Link and Ruto are forced to spend time with each other and work together in order to continue. This is also when Link learns how to “be a man” by carrying Ruto around and protecting her. Then after JabuJabu is purified they become engaged.
>>2908747 The themes are strongly sexual, but the dungeon is also intimidating and disturbing. I believe the symbolic element here is about becoming comfortable around the female sex and physical intimacy as you enter puberty.
I think it’s worth noting that none of the adult dungeons have sexual themes. At first this seems odd, because sexual themes seem like they would belong more in the adult portion of the game. But this is a coming of age story, and Young Link is at the cusp of puberty. It’s appropriate that a dungeon with this theme is the final one before entering the adult portion of the game and becoming a man, where a dungeon with this sort of theme could imply an unhealthy sexual fixation.
The Forest Temple, as the first adult dungeon, serves to introduce the player to the adult world. It does this by being really creepy and unsettling. Spiders, wolves, skeletons, ghosts, and disembodied hands that drop from the ceiling prowl the halls and passages. Weird, non-euclidian hallways that twist and untwist change the layout of the place in ways that don't make sense. The strange, haunting, and yet beautiful music lilts in the background. The Forest Temple is a scary place. It's important to note, though, that it isn't scary in the same way that the Shadow Temple is scary; it's scary because it's generally unsettling and unfamiliar, and they juxtapose that with the most utterly familiar setting in the game.
The forest is the very first environment you encounter in the game. As a child, it's full of friendly, inviting children, and there's almost no danger to speak of. When you come back as an adult, though, the forest is full of enemies, and the kids are all hiding in their homes. The entrance to the temple itself sits where Saria used to, and the sacred grove is full of hulking moblins who pose a much greater threat than the deku scrubs that once hung out there. The adult world is a dangerous place, and the fact that you get the bow and arrow in the Forest Temple helps reinforce this idea further. Mechanically, the bow is no different from the slingshot. It's used the same way, solves the same puzzles; for all intents and purposes, it simply replaces the slingshot in your inventory. The only real difference is that the bow does more damage. A slingshot is a toy, a bow is a weapon. (1/2)
>>2908750 Saria being the sage is the last piece of the puzzle. She's the first major ally you meet in the game. She gives you your first ocarina, she teaches you one of the first and most important songs in the game (which, side note, Saria's song is used throughout the game in cool ways to represent creating friendships), and throughout the game she's always been available to call for advice or words of encouragement. When you return the forest as an adult, though, she's nowhere to be found, and you can't get in touch with her. Saria represents how even the best of friends grow apart and go their separate ways as they get older. She herself basically spells this out during the bittersweet reunion once you finish the temple, when she says “it is destiny that you and I can't live in the same world.” It's not all sadness, though, because even though the two are destined for different paths, Saria reaffirms that they'll be friends, no matter what.
The Forest Temple is set up to draw as many parallels to childhood as possible, so that it subvert and twist the players expectations. In-universe this helps show that Ganondorf's rise to power has corrupted even the most pure parts of Hyrule, but in the greater context of a coming-of-age story, the Forest Temple is the first step into the world of adulthood. The Forest Temple is scary, because adulthood is scary. (2/2)
As another side note/alternate interpretation, the Forest Temple is weird and wrong because it's a representation of how Link's entire childhood has been a lie. He's a Hylian, not a Kokiri. The temple is a thing of the forest, and though Link was raised in the forest, it's not where he belongs. It's no coincidence that this little tidbit of information is brought up immediately after you beat the temple.
Fire is one of the most powerful and important forces in the world. It figures heavily in mythology and religion throughout history. We rely on it in nearly every aspect of life. We use it to cook our food, we use it to power our vehicles, to heat our homes, to create our tools, and more. Fire can also be an incredibly destructive force. Fire burns down homes, claims lives and generally consumes everything it touches when it gets out of control. Simply put, fire is power. And, if you'll forgive me for quoting Spider-Man, with great power comes great responsibility.
In both 'Goron' dungeons, Ganondorf is explicitly called out as the cause of the problem. This is interesting, because in the rest of the game he's merely alluded to in a general sense. Ganondorf himself blocked the entrance to Dodongo's Cavern, Ganondorf himself released Volvagia, and Ganondorf himself imprisoned the Goron tribe. Big G plays a bigger role here than in other places for two reasons: first, obviously, is the fact that power is kind of his thing, and the 'Goron' dungeons directly correlate to power in the triforce sense. Second, though, is that he's set up as an example of misuse of power.
This is as good a point as any to point out that there's a very prominent masculine undercurrent to the Fire Temple. The Gorons (as far as I can tell) are exclusively male, they call their leader “Big Brother,” and on a number of occasions they bring up the idea of “being a real man.” This is particularly interesting, because in a number of tribal cultures around the world, boys are separated from women to undergo coming-of-age rituals at puberty. In a way, Dodongo's Cavern and the Fire Temple serve the same purpose for Link. He goes off into the mountains away from any female figures to undergo a literal trial by fire to learn how to be a real man. If the Forest Temple teaches Link to be an adult, the Fire Temple teaches him how to be a man. (1/2)
>>2908756 The Fire Temple also teaches Link how to be a hero. When you return to the Goron village as an adult, you learn that you've become something of a legendary hero of the Gorons. Dariuna even named his son after you. In order to get the keys needed to progress through the dungeon, you have to save the Gorons who have been imprisoned. These details, combined with Ganondorf's looming presence, really drive home the overall theme of the Fire Temple: heroes(and by extension, 'real men') use their power to protect the weak and defend the innocent, while villains use their power to enslave and destroy.
Again, we see the dungeon's theme echoed in the dungeon item: the Megaton Hammer. Hammers are one of the most simple yet versatile tools that man has ever devised. They act as a force multiplier to, you guessed it, increase the wielder's power. Most importantly, hammers can be used both for creation as well as destruction, just like the fire in which it is forged.
The temple's boss neatly caps off the examination of power, masculinity, and heroism. After all, what's a more iconic act of heroism than slaying the fire-breathing dragon that's terrorizing the countryside? (2/2)
Another fun aside, because there's just so much more that I'm not fully addressing: When you run into Dariuna before he goes to fight Volvagia, he's worried because he doesn't have the hammer. This is kind of a cool, because it shows that the courage that you gain in the Forest Temple isn't always enough; you have to have power to be a hero.
That's actually kind of a recurring theme with the Gorons, too. Despite their size and strength, they're constantly the low men on the totem pole. Perhaps they lack the courage necessary to gain power?
The Water Temple is an incredibly complex and intricate piece of work, which is I suppose fitting for the portion of the game most closely associated with wisdom. There are a lot of things in the Water Temple that I still don't understand, and it seems like every time I replay the game I see something new. At it's core, though, the Water Temple explores themes typically associated with its namesake element: change, adaptability, and reflection. This is summed up most eloquently by Sheik's monologue upon learning the Serenade of Water: “Time passes, people move … Like a river’s flow, it never ends. A childish mind will turn to noble ambition … Young love will become deep affection … The clear water’s surface reflects growth. Now listen to the Serenade of Water to reflect upon yourself …”
The Water Temple is one of the most vertically-oriented dungeons in the entire game. During the course of the dungeon, you spend a lot of time diving down to the bottom, then making your way back up. In a sense, the temple is designed to flow like you're exploring a submerged cavern, periodically coming up for air. The temple is also built around raising and lowering the water level repeatedly. This constant cycle of upward and downward movement builds the ideas of fluidity and change directly into the 'structure' of the dungeon itself.
This idea is also represented in both of the items associated with the dungeon. It's particularly noteworthy that both items, the Iron boots and the Longshot, are essentially altered versions of items you already have in your inventory. It's also relevant that in both cases, the changes increase your ability to change your vertical position within the temple, and to more effectively maneuver and fight in water. The temple forces you to rely on these two items heavily, and as a result it actually integrates the core theme of the dungeon into the design of the puzzles themselves. (1/3)
>>2908762 So we've got change covered quite well, but what about reflection? That's where Dark Link comes in, and again, the temple relies on game mechanics to convey its message. The fight with Dark Link doesn't actually start until you lock onto him with Z-targeting (this may not actually be accurate, I most recently played the 3DS version and I don't know if it was the same in the original), but you can't actually hit him while you're locked on. In order to “conquer yourself” as Navi so eloquently puts it when you press up-c while locked on, you actually have to do so without the crutch of Z-Targeting. At this point, locking onto your enemies has probably become an automatic habit that you don't even think about, and the Dark Link fight forces you change your tactics in order to grow as a player. Or, you know, just smack him with the hammer.
Ruto's presence as the sage of water, as well as Zelda's association with the Triforce of Wisdom also lends a feminine undertone to the Water Temple, though it isn't nearly as pronounced as the Fire Temple's exploration of masculinity. Ruto may also serve as an allusion to a Japanese myth about a serpent woman who lives at the bottom of the sea as well, but my knowledge of Japanese mythology is quite lacking, and I can't say with any certainty that this is true. (2/3)
>>2908764 Going back to Campbell's Monomyth, which OoT actually fits into pretty damn well, Ruto may also be an example of the "woman as temptress" stage. She would marry Link if she had her way, but in the end the two really can't be together.
Really, I'm not anywhere near as confident in my analysis of the Water Temple as any of the other dungeons in the game. One of these days I'll actually give it the time and effort it deserves.
Luckily, next on my list is the Shadow Temple, which is probably the most straightforward of them all. (3/3)
In direct contrast to the complexity of the Water Temple, the Shadow Temple is incredibly straightforward and to the point. Death is, after all, the universal constant, and the Shadow Temple represents Link's journey into the underworld.
What I find most interesting about the design and layout of the temple itself is that the entire thing is a constant descent. You enter the temple from a ledge above the graveyard, descend past a monolithic mausoleum door, and gradually work your way deeper and deeper until finally dropping through a hole in the floor at the deepest part of the dungeon into the chamber where Bongo Bongo resides. This, coupled with the imagery of death that's (sometimes literally) dripping from every wall in the place really drives home the idea of descending into hell itself to confront the monster in charge.
It's also interesting how utterly macabre the Shadow Temple and Bottom of the Well are. The Bottom of the Well is, essentially, a hidden torture chamber, complete with a hidden pitfall underneath the X-Shaped cross that leads to a chamber full of undead. In the temple itself, the walls are adorned with grinning faces that seem amused by the carnage contained within. False walls and floors are everywhere, and at various points the walls themselves talk of “tricks full of ill will.” The dungeon itself seems to have a will of its own, and the place is not at all friendly. Where all the other temples are presumably holy places that have been corrupted and perverted by Ganondorf's magic, the Shadow Temple is a place of pure darkness and evil. (1/2)
>>2908775 There is also an odd recurring theme of body parts, usually disembodied. The dungeon items the Lens of Truth and Hover Boots are referred to as the “Eye of Truth” and “Sacred Feet,” respectively. The minibosses of the Shadow Temple and the Bottom of the Well are called Dead Hands, and feature a number of arms sticking up from the ground to grab and immobilize you. guillotines figure prominently in the design of the dungeon itself, and Bongo Bongo's hands are separate from the rest of his body. Bongo Bongo himself looks quite a bit like a headless torso hanging from the ceiling. All this lends a subtle vibe of bodily mutilation to the temple, which just adds to the horrific atmosphere.
The Shadow Temple utilizes as many recognizable representations of death as it can get its skeletal fingers on; from the ravens that top pillars throughout the temple to the ghostly ferry manned by skeletons. The idea of a hero descending into the underworld itself is one as old as stories themselves, and OoT gladly incorporates the trope. OoT is, after all, a modern-day fairy tale. The Shadow Temple in a lot of ways is the final test before confronting Ganondorf. If you can defeat the shadow of death itself, what can't you defeat? But it also serves as a gruesome memento mori that adds a bitter twinge to the game's central theme of the passage of time. (2/2)
Last, but definitely not least, the Spirit Temple.
The Spirit Temple is a study in duality. Young and old, good and evil, fire and ice. Even the design of the medallion you receive upon completion is highly reminiscent of a yin-yang. The Spirit Temple is also my favorite dungeon in the game by far, and it ties into the overarching theme of time and aging that's so central to the game.
In a lot of ways, the Spirit Temple is the real temple of time. The weight of the inevitable passage of time hangs over the entire temple, illustrated by the weathered sandstone construction. The desert colossus itself stands in the desert like the crumbling monolith described in Shelley's Ozymandias, a constant reminder of the ravages of time. This focus on the passage of time is reflected in the temple layout as well, as rather than having a separate child counterpart like every other temple in the game, the Spirit Temple incorporates its child portion directly into its design.
The temple is almost perfectly mirrored in terms of room layout; one side only accessible as a child, the other only accessible as an adult. The child portion must be completed in order to access the adult portion, and the child portion of the Spirit Temple is the last time you're required to play as child Link. This serves as a metaphor for aging; the events of your childhood are necessary for you to become the adult you are meant to be, but once you've become an adult that childhood no longer exists as anything more than a memory. (1/3)
>>2908781 The enemies you face in each portion also tie into this theme. One of the first enemies you face in the child side is a Stalfos – something you've only faced as an adult up until this point. At the end of the child side you face an Iron Knuckle. These fights help show the necessity of growing up; child link does far less damage, and the fights are more difficult than you're used to as a result. When you return as an adult and face another Iron Knuckle, the difference is immediately apparent.
But the young/old dichotomy is just one part of the Spirit Temple's larger focus on juxtaposition and duality. The fact that Ganondorf, being a Gerudo, is from the desert adds an interesting facet to this entire portion of the game.
In order to pass through the valley and gain access to the Spirit Temple, Link must earn the respect of the Gerudo. Here, like in the Fire Temple, the game suggests a direct comparison between Link and Ganondorf. Ganondorf is given the respect of his tribe by nature of birth and tradition. Link, on the other hand, earns the respect of the Gerudo by proving his capability in rescuing the carpenters.(2/3)
>>2908782 Link also invites comparison to Ganondorf by completing the trials in the desert to reach the Spirit Temple. Ganondorf has most definitely made the trek to the temple in the past and braved the trials; we know this because he's using the temple as a base of operations. In addition, in the course of proving yourself, the Gerudo begin to see you in a different light. If you get caught while sneaking around, they call you a kid and throw you in a cell. Once you've saved the last carpenter, however, the Gerudo who greets you says “I used to think that all men, except for the great Ganondorf, were useless... But now that I've seen you, I don't think so anymore!” Essentially, the Gerudo hold Ganondorf up as a paragon of manliness, and in order to progress you must prove yourself his equal. This is just another example of the thematic duality; in order to defeat Ganondorf, Link must become more like him.
Finally, Koume and Kotake represent the duality so important to the temple with their opposed powers of fire and ice. The boss battle really hammers home the binary nature of the temple. In order to defeat them, you must use both fire and ice; the trick lies in knowing when to use which. The true way forward lies in finding balance.
>>2908725 >I've tried to start up MM several times, but it just doesn't invoke the same kind of feeling; I guess it's a very obviously sequelly continuation.
I definitely hold the same view, and feel that many of the game's fans downplay this weakness. The world feels less discoverable in general, everything gets concentrated on the town NPCs instead, with progressive world interaction becoming less important.
>>2908747 >Also note that in the Master Quest version of the dungeon there are cow heads sticking out of the walls that you can get milk from. This seems like a pretty random element unless the dungeon is supposed to represent a woman’s body.
This is the one part when you really went too far. Like fuck.
>>2905127 Playing this game when it came out is still one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. Honestly if you didn't play it when it came out, you missed out and there's nothing you can do. I mean it's a good game still, but when it came out it was literally the best game ever made up to that point, there was nothing quite like it.
>>2909527 You can't really replicate the feeling of playing OoT when it came out. I understand that you like it a lot and everything, but it's just not the same. The top 3 mind blowing moments in my gaming life are: 1) Playing Super Mario 64 for the first time. 2) Playing Oot for the fist time. 3) Playing Soul Calibur 1 for the first time. None of this can be replicated if you played the games way after they came out.
>>2909546 This so much. They were more innocent times, life was simple. Having internet was a rarity, strategy guides were scarce. No twitter, no smartphones. Playing this game felt like a real adventure on a mysterious magical world. Now you can compare it to 800 similar games that came out afterwards, but back then there was nothing like it. It's still a fantastic game though.
>>2909590 But it's true and I really don't mean it in a bad way. I'm discovering amazing gems every day that came out a long time ago. But how can you replicate seeing a full 3D world that you can explore for the first time when nowadays there are 1000 games like it? When Mario 64 came out and I saw it, my little 10 year old mind literally exploded. I couldn't comprehend how a game could look SO AMAZING. Now go play Mario 64 is you haven't played it yet. Would you feel the same? Of course not. That's the point, but don't get upset.
>>2909578 Could you explain how rasterization and collision detection work at 20fps? I'm trying to get my head around how that works functionally. So there's no delay refarding inputs, but there is a slight one when you hit an enemy/wall/whatever?
And with rasterization...how does that even have fps? What?
I played OoT some time ago, a year or so, and I got myself stuck.
I got to the shadow temple, but I couldn't find that thingy that shows you truth. At first I thought 'no biggie, just few fake walls', but then I got to the big chamber. And guess what? Yep. Invisible platforms. I said 'fuck it', and went on a search to find that truth thingy. I also needed it to pass The Desert if I remember correctly. All I gathered on my own was that owners of the time thingy are the family of that kid that plays on the graveyard. I tried talking to him day and night, with every mask(I got the one that lets you talk to stones, I assume its the final one) and nothing. I tried the same with that kid under the three, still nothing. What did I do wrong? Was I even on the right track? Any tips that would push me little bit forward so I can figure it out?
>>2909962 It means that the console does all of the scene calculations, sound calculations, input calculations, etc at 60fps, but the GPU only draws the actual scene (rasterization) on every third internally processed frame. Collision detection is also only finished processing on the same frame as rasterization.
This does mean, however, that the collision system is somewhat exploitable because it is recycling calculations on 2 out of every 3 frames.
As for the source, can't remember, but it was from speedrunning discussions.
>>2910013 The camera in the game is actually incredibly well done, especially considering you don't have a second analog stick to move it around.
Making Z-targeting the easiest way to control the camera (by just facing Link in a certain direction and pressing Z) is pretty smooth. I like that it actually makes a minor connection between player and character too, since you have to face your character in the direction you want to look. On it's own that isn't much, but when you add up enough little things like that (which this game has tons of) it actually does help put you into the shoes of the character you're experiencing everything through.
You might accidentally target something you didn't mean to, but it's easy to untarget and you'll be looking in the same direction. Considering how important it is for the c-buttons to perform functions other than controlling the camera, this solution is pretty great.
It may seem simple or obvious today, but OoT was the first game to have this sort of camera control, as far as I know. Most others that came before were just copying Mario 64 or doing their own thing (which usually didn't work too well).
>>2910013 >mfw in my more over-analytical years, I used to believe that the blackboxing was a flaw because "it takes away from what you can see." Now that I'm older I understand though, that that's the only way to let the player known they're locked on successfully in the middle of action.
>>2909610 >But it's true and I really don't mean it in a bad way.
I don't see how so. OoT was always more about design than shear TECHNOLOGY, and so the level of care and attention to detail still holds up. There aren't really "1000 games like it" or anything close to that at all.
>>2910239 >OoT was always more about design than shear TECHNOLOGY
Not him, but back in the day it was really both. The design was definitely more important and is why the game holds up today, but stuff like signs floating on water or dynamic lighting (sort of) from Navi was impressive back then. And while they can still be appreciated by new players, they wont have the same degree of novelty.
Mostly I think a lot of it comes down to OoT being one of the first 3D games with a large interconnected world, most before it were very segmented with a hub you entered levels from. That certainly isn't true of games today.
I don't necessarily agree with him that someone playing the game will have a lesser experience than someone who played it at the time, because everyone's experience with a game is unique and it's definitely possible for someone to have a very valuable time with an old game. And there definitely aren't a lot of games out there like OoT. But there are many more today that share certain elements with it than there were at the time of its release, so some components of it may not have the impact on a player that they once did.
There's just something about the game that's more than the sum of its parts. A certain feeling that you can't quite put your finger on, but you know is there. OoT wasn't just a mysterious game because of stuff like the running man or unicorn fountain, there was something there that you felt while playing the game. Like you were just scratching the surface of something greater.
That's how it was for me at least. Probably sounds silly, but the game really does feel sort of magical.
>>2909975 This kind of stuff is exactly why the game is so great. This is probably the best legitimate mystery in the game tied to the main quest. And I like how the game doesn't at all prevent you from attempting to progress without it. It's things like this that are largely missing from the Zelda games made in the previous decade. I love how the game encourages you to figure out family trees and relations between the characters in order to work things out I don't even think MM does this as well.
>>2910115 >>2910068 Good, but don't help him too much just yet. The game could have been a little more clear here than it is about this, so these hints are fair game, but it should be satisfying to figure this out on its own.
>>2910256 >>2910291 I think it's because OoT went through so many revisions that you can sense the game is built on such solid foundation unlike other games. Either because Miyamoto is a perfectionist or because OoT came out at just the right time period where scrapping and remodeling the core of a 3D game was still financially viable.
There was the original Zelda 64 which based on the SM64 engine. Then that was remade into what I call "Early OoT." THEN child Link and the Ocarina were introduced for what I call Beta OoT. Finally, in the last year Miyamoto delayed it and rewrote a fourth of the story. You can see how the game evolved by following old footage up to the final thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0bOGi-tKGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq5OoSlpu-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkJnHF_DbN4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfO3PCp-_x8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqmCWcPCwl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZnjMz_qTH4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcpSVxcArgI
OoT smacked you with intense immersion. Obviously you can still be immersed by 2d and such, but with OoT being the first 3d Zelda game it gave all sorts of interesting possibilities to interact with the game world; to feel why this ancient temple is a dungeon, etc.
The world is packed with details, little symbols and signs around the world, giving life to these areas. The game gives you little to no information on the various places you enter, forcing you to try to formulate your own ideas of the areas. Each dungeon is loaded with detail, yet outside of the Triforce symbol, is barely talked about. The player is forced to create their own ideas regarding the place. This is one of the reasons why I think the Souls series is as successful as it is, it really taps into this sense of exploration and wonder by only giving you little scraps of info. Non-Zelda Nintendo games have also tapped into this, like Metroid Prime, along with it being the first 3d Metroid it too gave a new world of wonder to the series.
Everyone loves the OoT music, however one thing I feel is rarely talked about is the more ambient tracks. Those tracks really give a sense of creepyness and mystery to some of the areas that I really adore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYAqklair1k Compare this to any Zelda beforehand, it really hits you that you are experiencing something completely different.
I'm a sucker for ambient music to begin with. too.
>>2905127 Let's strip away all the pomp and circumstance that came with this being the first 3D Zelda. The sense of nostalgia, the immersion, the cinematics, all of that. Even forget the fact that this game single-handedly wrote the book on 3D adventure gaming, a book that is still being used today by many games.
Ocarina stands the test of time because it is a good game. Simple as that. It flows beautifully, its pacing is near-perfect, and it encourages many different approaches. You can start this game and blast though it, making a beeline to Ganon while ignoring everything else, and the game will never try to slow you down. No tutorials, no forced sidequests, no filler. You just go. On the other hand, you can take your time and explore every nook and cranny and the experience is enriched that much more. You're rewarded with extra challenge and optional rewards like Epona, the elemental arrows, the stone of agony, the Biggoron sword, the spells and more. On top of that, dungeon design is tight all around. While dungeon design would continue to improve over the next few games, there is no inherently bad dungeon in OoT. The worst thing is the Water Temple, and that isn't even because of the dungeon itself (which I find to be one of the more engaging challenges of the adventure) but rather because of the boot-swapping mechanic, which was fixed in the remake. Navi is also a bit of an issue. To be fair, the developers weren't sure how disorienting players would find a 3D world, so Navi was put in as a way to remind the players of their current objective. I just found in critically annoying to be reminded that "A cold wind is blowing from Zora's Domain" for the 20th time while I'm having fun with sidequests.
Every time I play Ocarina, it welcomes me to do so. It invites you to just play and have fun. You're always doing something. Always being engaged. No part of this game feels like a slog, and that's a relic of a time long gone.
>>2913954 >There's no such thing as immersion >immersion: the state of being immersed >immerse: to involve deeply; absorb >There's no such thing as being involved deeply Not everything is a meaningless buzzword. Congratulations. You're fucking retarded.
>Forest Being an adult is scary, but you need to have the courage to face it, because you now longer belong in the idyllic world of childhood
>Fire Power, masculinity, and heroism. A real man uses his power to create and defend those weaker than himself.
>Water Wisdom, reflection, change.
>Shadow Hero's descent into the underworld
>Spirit The passage of time, duality, balance. "the events of your childhood are necessary for you to become the adult you are meant to be, but once you've become an adult that childhood no longer exists as anything more than a memory."
>>2914536 >The passage of time, duality, balance. "the events of your childhood are necessary for you to become the adult you are meant to be, but once you've become an adult that childhood no longer exists as anything more than a memory."
That's an interesting idea, but it's offset by still being able to return to childhood any time you want and especially by Zelda sending you back to childhood at the very end.
I'm trying to beat this game for the very first time. I feel like I should have played the 3DS remake because the graphics look so much better. Do you think I made the right choice to get the best experience? That being said I love how Kokiri forest looks in n64 graphics. It adds so much atmosphere to the dungeons too. But it's just such a huge shock how much graphics have changed.
And don't call me a newfag. I rented the game once when it came out but it scared the inside of the Deku Tree scared the shit out of me so I never played it again. I was like 6 and autistic. Give me a break.
>>2914536 Another important part of this theme is that you can see the Forest, Fire and Water temples before you're an adult but you can't enter them. Link as a child is in a totally different world than the adults. He can see it but can never take part in it until he's older.
>>2915405 I forgot to mention that some of the mechanics feel clunky so I'm not sure if I should have went with OoT3D instead.
>>2915419 >I forgot to mention that some of the mechanics feel clunky so I'm not sure if I should have went with OoT3D instead.
Barring motion control for aimed weapons (which is optional), iron boot thing and a higher framerate, the physics for OOT and OOT3D are essentially the same unless you get into really complicated glitching and speedrunning type shit...and even then they're still 90% the same.
Thanks anons. I worded my post funny so I was about to rewrite it when you replied.
I think this is the best logic that proves I should do it this way. I tried looking through screenshots and it just made me want to play the 3D version, but after this post: >>2915447 I see how it's too cartoony. It just looks like the palette and brightness are too much that it loses some of the style it was going for.
>>2915497 Overall, 3D is a dramatic graphical improvement over the original, but in some parts of the game the original had far better and more dramatic lighting. The best example is how in the original version, when you first enter the chamber where you fight Gohma, all you can see is Gohma's eyeball moving around on the dark ceiling. Then Gohma falls down into the slight glow coming from the floor and you really see how big and scary it is. In 3D, Gohma and the ceiling are both plainly visible when you look up to see it, so the dramatic effect is lost.
>>2915592 >ALttP felt more open and less linear. It's not really
>The Dark World/Light World thing was more clever and better implemented than OoT's time travel Nor is this. OoT has its equivalent in the day/night cycle as well, which is at least as clever and enables around four variations of a given area.
>>2908742 >You're just a kid, going up against a dragon.
That entire fight was supposed to evoke that classic trope, which is obvoius but there are so many other great hero tropes in Zelda 64. Most of which were mentioned already by these posts. (Thanks for postin gthem by the way, I love thinking about this stuff.)
But I think the best thing about this dungeon is that it was foreshadowed at the beginning of the game. Small details like this made the game so great, which people in this thread have already talked more about. This is probably my favourite example though.
>>2908747 >Alright, this is going to get a little Freudian.
Can I talk about dicks for a minute? I feel like so much of Majora's Mask had blatant sexual symbolism. A gigantic moon, which is associated with femininity, is crashing into a gigantic phallic tower. Inside the moon is Majora, and it resembles a baby because of how childish it is. The game shares so many themes of coming of age and the passing of time too.
Maybe I'm just seeing dicks everywhere because I want all the dicks in my ass but yeah this is the most relevant time I can bring this up.
>>2915592 OoT doesn't force sequence any harder than ALttP, and OoT has more side quests. The time travel element is a rather different beast than the Light/Dark world of ALttP, so I don't see any value in comparing the two, but OoT's time travel does play a crucial role in enhancing and focusing the storytelling motifs. ALttP is a rather hollow and generic story compared to OoT. Then there's everything else I listed.
>>2916235 Sounds like a wonderfully objective opinion you have there, mate. Thanks a heap. What specifically is bad about the pacing? You grab a sword and shield as a primer to the new 3D adventure mechanic, and you can be in the first dungeon in well under 10 minutes.
>>2916241 >What specifically is bad about the pacing? >wait for the 5 minutes long cutscene to be over >fetch sword >fetch rupees so you can fetch shield >move faggot >1 minute of cutscene >have fun in dungeon >HEY ITS A DOOR >complete dungeon >5 minutes of cutscene >try to leave forest >more cutscene >Owl comes to pester you >waste a couple of minutes running in a straight line to get to town so you can push blocks to suffer more dragged out cutscenes to get an item that will move the fucking guard and get to Goron City
The pacing is ass but as future Zelda games proved already, it could have been worse.
>>2915405 Honestly, I see OoT3D as the definitive version. It's an incredibly faithful remake/port that fixes the few issues the original had without messing with the stuff that didn't need to be changed. I don't know how to explain it, but the 3D effect felt like it added a ton as well.
I remember reading an essay somebody did once about the Stone Tower Temple, and how jam-packed full of phallic imagery it is. put together a really cool theory that tied in aspects of the Tower of Babel and stuff like that.
I should track that down again, it was really well thought out.
>>2917489 I remember fighting one of the Poe sisters in the staircase in the Forest Temple and just sitting back and thinking "Holy shit, I don't remember the combat in this game feeling this good." Same with the Iron Knuckle battles. Shame there's only, like, 4 in the entire game.
I think it's a combination of the motion control aiming and the improved sense of depth. I find dodging and rolling to feel a lot better since you have a better idea of where you are relative to the enemy. I could just be imagining things, though.
>>2917505 >>2917489 I hate the motion sensing. And I hate having to turn it off every time I start a new file. The only time I noticed the 3D does anything is when you're using the Longshot. Since it has a huge laser sight, on it, you can tell much easier exactly how far you are away from something. But it's not enough of a convenience to turn it on.
I have noticed that ReDeads are much more likely to attack you in town and in general seem smarter and have more animations. If you wake up a standing ReDead from behind, it will slag side-ways as it turns before starting to walk.
I love it, but personally couldn't care less that it's on a 3DS beyond the portability, but to each his own.
>>2917537 I hate the motion controls too, but how often do you start a new file that it's an issue? I thought the 3D was a positive addition, unfortunately the 3DS can't do 3D and anti-aliasing at the same time, so I only turned it on for platforming areas. Not sure if the N3DS fixes that or not.
>>2915634 >Red squiggles at the top of the wheel is the Goddess >The center is 'Earth' >Bottom symbol is the Sun >The Goddess is holding the Earth over the Sun >The wheel turns causing the sun to revolve around 'Earth'
>>2922286 They emulate well enough. A few minor graphical glitches (gear menu screen is weird, path textures on the ground don't show up well with some plugins.) I played through both games many times on emulators, on hardware, and the remakes and enjoyed them all about the same.
>>2921051 >>2917362 If it makes you feel any better I'm the guy who brought up the Clock Tower dick and I really don't like those types of theories either. I don't like how after the Hyrule Historia people make theories that don't make any sense too. And the Link is Dead theory makes my blood pressure rise and so does everything Game Theory does.
But I really do think it's a giant cock. The biggest thing I left out is that the Fierce Diety mask turns Link into an adult on the moon. The Skull Kid is an immature brat and it's kind of about the end of childhood, or the death of innocence. Which goes alone with the death thing a little bit.
I also left out things like how if you wear the Great Fairy Mask and talk to the guy who runs the sword dojo he wants to keep it for himself or something. It's pretty funny.
>>2915045 >spits out reddit opinion LTTP was just the better game, the split between light and dark world was really cool, better than the past-future of OOT and the quick transitions between made from some great puzzles
dungeons were better and mechanically more interesting rather than "oh this is the boomerang dungeon"
the map was really varied without everything feeling like some "sub" area.
the scene with the Master Sword was incredible. still love slowly walking through that glade up to this magical super powerful artifact.
magic and items have lots of use beyond the dungeons all around the world, tons of secrets
and beyond all that the game just handles better, but I've always preferred the 2D zeldas over the 3D ones since I started with the Gameboy versions.
>>2923552 Retro Ain't free. The tree of 2D gaming gotta be litterd with the blood of 5th Genners. Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of WASTE of Time aka LoZ: OoWoT is not my vidya gaem. it is pig disgusting and probably three dimensional as well :DD. LoZ: LttP NOT LoZ: OoWoT ok. praise SNES
OoT is actually my favorite game of all time, and I do prefer it over ALttP, but I don't agree with people who shit up our once great board by insulting others and trying to incite arguments.
You haven't presented an argument as to why alttp is "garbage", nor do I expect you to. You want to rile up others. Why do /v/ users as yourself always feel the need to take sides? You guys think there are two sides to everything. "___fags vs. ___fags". That's not the way the world works. There are plenty of people, myself included, who enjoy both games. Go shit up /v/ if you need something that will satisfy your sick, juvenile appetite. Once you graduate from middle school/high school, you'll look back on what a twat your were.
This was supposed to be an appreciation thread not a "Let's shit on each other" thread.
I will say I thought LttP was a good game. I did like OOT more but I enjoyed both. Those two probably have more in common than any other two Zelda games honestly. Well, besides the oracle games I guess.
this piece is based off of a F#minor chord with a major 6th. the piece also has a floaty sort of melody and tends not to harmonize on downbeats, rather the chord voices itself in a way that almost seems to grow on each beat almost like a tree would spread its roots.
>>2905127 I think it just pretty much did everything right. Back then a perfect 10 score was a rarity (it wasn't like it is today where they are just handed out like candy on Halloween).
+ It was the first 3D Zelda experience. + Dungeons were amazing, and there were plenty of them. + Dungeons were more than just your typical dungeon crawl, which consisted of puzzles and kept you thinking. + Combat just felt right. Even to today's standards, it's one of the best combat system formula, the only thing I'd say that rivals it is combat from the Batman series by Rocksteady. + Graphics. + Plenty of side quests to do + Now, with the side quests thing there were no levels, so if you wanted to do side quests for extra items, hearts, or just for the adventure you could, but you weren't required to do them in order to continue progressing through the story. You did them at your own leisure and if you didn't want to do them, no big deal.
It literally just did everything right. The only thing I can fault the game for is the lack of cinematics, but back in 1998 cinematics and cutscenes really weren't much of a thing. You could sit down with OoT and you knew you were going on an epic journey, and it felt like an epic journey without needing cutscenes. The short dialogues were more than enough to give it the cinematic presentation that you expect from a story driven adventure.
>>2928437 For me the combat is one area the game falls kind of short. The combat system itself is fucking great, but I feel like most enemies don't force you to use it.
Like, you can choose to do stabs, horizontal, vertical or diagonal slices, there's a way to control all your swings. But most of the time you can lock on and mash b and you're good. Maybe use the occasional jump attack since it's more powerful, but that's about it.
I just wish the combat system itself was a bit more explored, since it feels like there's a lot more to it than the game actually uses. That's a problem with a lot of Zelda games though.
>>2928437 I personally see the lack of cinematics as one of OoT's major strengths. The game is one of the finest examples of "show, don't tell" storytelling and worldbuilding, and I think that's one of the major reasons for its enduring appeal. If anything, a few of the cinematics it does have detract from the experience.
>>2928567 I agree, which is why I wish there were more enemies like the Iron Knuckles in the game. They're my favorite fights, because they force you to explore more of the combat system than just "hold R until they stop attacking, then mash B until dead." Granted, the pattern still mostly boils down to "dodge until you see an opening, then jump attack and gtfo," but it's a step in the right direction.
We're so much smarter than those dumb ass idiots were back then! Their subhuman brains weren't able to understand that OoT isn't fun! Every single game released now is better than shit from back then! Pre 7th gen is obsolete!!!
Haven't played the souls games so I can't comment on that, but I like that the fights in OOT aren't as flashy as DMC's or Bayonetta's. OOT's feels more grounded, like the difference between the light saber battles of the original trilogy compared to the flashy flippy lava surfing style of fights in the prequels. For a videogame those types of fights can work fine, but for the kind of game OOT is I'm glad it's not over the top.
Biggest problem the combat in OOT has is that most enemies are too easy and too many of them have only one strategy that they're weak to while nothing else works. The combat system is great, it's the enemy design (not talking about appearance) that's often weak and fails to bring out what the combat system actually has to offer.
>>2923276 Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about here >>2915585 . The original had awesome lighting effects. I never got to the final battle in 3D (quit playing after beating the Spirit Temple), so I didn't know they messed with the final battle too. One of the coolest things in the original was you could only really see Ganon when lightning struck, otherwise he was just a big demonic silhouette.
One thing I never see anyone mention surprisingly is how fucking flawed the money/shopping system is: >Only item in game you actually need to buy is deku shield >Never really use the shops again >Spend entire game with a maxed out wallet >Money rewards found in chests feel totally unrewarding >Even a wallet upgrade feels pointless
It's a valid criticism. The shops are occasionally used, but never as extensively as the amount of money you can find would seem to dictate. One thing I find is that imposing a no-grassfarm or no-fairy challenge suddenly rebalances the whole thing perfectly, though this isn't really an excuse for the original root problem.
>>2928567 The only Zelda game that actually did combat correctly is Skyward Sword. People shit on it so much but it also did a few things very well. Far better than Twilight Princess, which added some really cool moves with absolutely no practical use, essentially worsening the problem.
>>2928604 Well obviously. It's also gonna feel very basic compared to games like Soul Calibur. You don't expect complicated combat systems in an adventure game like Zelda (especially when you compare to games that are specifically built around combat), but it'd be nice if the options you get (like how you slash) actually make a difference.
>>2930142 You don't have to buy it, you can also find it in the graveyard. It's a much better option imo, especially since the hylian shield isn't that useful as a child.
>>2930065 The worst thing is that you usually get your wallet upgrades by the time you don't really need them anymore. Maybe to buy one very specific item in some of the Zeldas, but usually not even that. The cap is also so low for the majority of the game, but if you're like me you'll still go around collecting rupees even when your wallet's full.
Also that shitty feel when you open a chest, get a silver rupee or a big rupee or something, and notice that your wallet's already full and the treasure goes to waste.
Majora's Mask did it kinda better since you lose your rupees when you go back in time, so collecting rupees is always 'useful', but it adds a sort of grindiness to the game.
>>2930065 Is there any Zelda game that actually has a good money/shopping system? Maybe Wind Waker? I seem to recall using shops more than usual in that game, but my memories of that game are also really fuzzy.
conglomerationplay noun con·glom·er·a·tion \kən-ˌglä-mə-ˈrā-shən, ˌkän-\ Simple Definition of conglomeration Popularity: Bottom 40% of words : a group or mixture of different things : a process in which different things come together to form a single thing
I know that Miyamoto will never admit it, but OoT had a lot of "unfinished" stuff, that were done properly only in MM. That makes sense if you consider the constant change of deadlines the game had back in the day. Don't get me wrong, it still a classic, and one of the finest in N64 library, but we can't deny the truth. The masks, the ice arrow, the marathon man, the long sword. All quests that had no proper ending or just got dropped in without any effect or cause whatsoever. That's why the game is notorious for the so called "mysterious atmosphere". Like the game is hiding something from you. Well, it is indeed, they just don't had time to finish it all. So even with those flaws the game experience got enhanced, in a really lucky way. It seems that at time Miyamoto was working with a "communication game", what explains all the trading system left behind. Those mechanics allowed Miyamoto to later create Animal Crossing and Majora's Mask, in better and more efficient ways. So in a technical level it is fascinating to see all those ideas blooming in OoT. Ideas that still active and interesting to this day. One of the many reasons OoT in one of the most important Nintendo games ever released.
>>2931584 I disagree with ALBW. I rented every item but the sand rod (as it was not yet unlocked) after the first dungeon and didn't die at any point in the game. It's an interesting idea, but I think it negatively impacts character progression significantly. All of a sudden I had a million tools and then I got very few for the remainder of the game.
>>2905127 >What do you think it did right? Everything.
>What are the things in this game that to this day haven't been matched or surpassed? Introduced my child self to a story, setting and atmosphere that was insanely dark and "hardcore" to me back in the day, compared to the stuff I played before it.
>What are the things that still make this game unique and memorable in 2016? The music, the voices. The fact that Ganondorf is an evil wizard but instead of being some old man with a beard he's a fucking heavyweight desert king in his prime and could probably still knock Link's shit around even if he didn't have an ounce of magic.
>>2931160 >masks, ice arrows, marathon man, longsword All of those things are leftovers from beta OoT that made it into the final game. Not unfinished content. Masks are a leftover of an item called the Eyeglasses of Truth which was replaced by the Lens of Truth. Ice Arrows are from the Ice Medallion. Running Man is from when OoT featured a dash instead of a roll and an item called the "Apollo Boots" which would make you super light (hence why Dampe says "young man, you're light on your feet," and the walkway in the Fire Barrier doesn't sink if you stand on it). The Biggoron's Sword/Giant's Knife are from the longsword from Zelda 64.
Really, it's quite amazing how Nintendo was able to take these elements and rather than throw them away, made them fit by making new content (for instance Biggoron probably didn't exist before). It's renown for a mysterious atmosphere because it was unfinished.
>>2936494 >All of those things are leftovers from beta OoT that made it into the final game. Not >Masks are a leftover of an item called the Eyeglasses of Truth which was replaced by the Lens of Truth. Ice Arrows are from the Ice Medallion.
>Running Man is from when OoT featured a dash instead of a roll and
>an item called the "Apollo Boots" which would make you super light (hence why Dampe says "young man, you're light on your feet," and the walkway in the Fire Barrier doesn't sink if you stand on it).
>>2936882 >>2937153 >Q: Are there any unseen enemies? Miyamoto: Uhh, one of the items, "Eyeglasses of Truth," lets you see things that are normally unseen. You get the picture. >Q: What about the B-Button? Miyamoto: This is the action button. On the top of the screen there is a green colored circle that contains the name of something, and the action button lets you use that item. If a display onscreen says it's necessary to dash, press this to dash. >Q: What the swirly thing in the corner of all pictures? Miyamoto: This is a wind magic medallion. There are six types of magic, including fire, wind, darkness, and light. I'm thinking about mixing the different types of magic (Miyamoto forces a smile). Truthfully, you can use magic in conjunction with Link's bow and arrow. Since you can use magic missiles, it's important that you can use magic on arrows. >Q: Do you use the "C" button for magic? Miyamoto: Yes. The six types of magic are divided by color, the wind magic being green. http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=interviews&id=1997-11-26-famimaga-miya-oot&m=html
It’d be fun to race around in Apollo’s boots, sure, but riding a horse over an open field feels fantastic. http://www.glitterberri.com/ocarina-of-time/1101-interviews/miyamoto-talks-zelda/
Also, I just checked. I made that up about Dampe. I was thinking of something else plus a different interview, but I did forget to mention the Club Moblin or wind vanes that can push you further while wearing the Hover Boots.
>>2937658 I can't discard that possibility entirely, but I'm of the opinion that Miyamoto knew exactly what he was talking about. He'd never goof on a mention about lore. That's his favorite thing. It's only when someone starts implying that video games should have more focus on story than gameplay that he throws them a smokescreen and pretends he doesn't care, rather than get mad. Remember that's why his mentor left the industry. https://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/email-1997-gunpei-yokoi-interview-modern-games-just-arent-games-for-me/ >The ideal of the kouros (a beardless, athletic youth), Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of music, truth and prophecy, [...] poetry, and more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo However nothing about Apollo associates him with boots specifically. It can't be just a fancy of Miyamoto's to have called it that. Also, keep in mind that this was mentioned alongside a horse, who the developers initially wanted to call "Ao" according to Iwata Asks before Epona was made. The names are too similar. It is very possible that "Ao" is the name of the other horse you can ride, and Apollo is the Running Man. I refer as evidence, to his appearance and time-obsessed characterization in MM.
>>2937802 Sorry, Spirit I mean. I goofed. Thank you for not slamming me.
I assume the powers were: Fire - Din's fire but smaller Darkness - Stamina shield against heat/cold Ice - Ice shield while you held it that froze whatever you touched and melted hot ice. Wind - Like Wind's Requiem in TWW. Or made the wind die down (you can see this happen if you die get lost in the Haunted Wasteland enough) Spirit - Like Mario's invisibility cap in SM64 Light - Hover or Sun's Song that freezes enemies.
>>2937901 What? Apollo? >googles Apollo and Running Man Oh, nevermind. For some reason I believed Running Man sported more of a toga and was going to say he's the only character in OoT with one. But it's just a white running suit. His name similarity to Ao and Kafkaesque persona still stand, albeit on flimsier ground I admit. I would rescind the idea that that's his name; if someone would point out any evidence that the Hover Boots were always intended for the Shadow Temple. But based on the fact that you only ever need them once, to cross the big ditch at the beginning, I'm pretty sure they're a Quest Item repurposed into a Dungeon Item. And Running Man is the only one whom they could fit (pun intended).
>>2937815 I don't know if the medallions were intended to have their own magic powers, but I know at one point they were meant to be used with arrows. Fire, ice and light arrows are likely a holdover from that.
I can't find the interview right now but I'll post it if I do.
>>2937916 You might be looking too deeply into the Apollo thing. Link to the Past had tons of references to Greek mythology but none of them meant squat.
>>2938557 I linked that arrows thing in that interview above. ALttP only had "Hera" and "Pegasus." Hardly a lot.
>>2938993 Interesting. Thanks for the history lesson anon. That sounds like a legit possibility. It's possible he'd just finished watching Rocky II recently and got confused. Or maybe Apollo just sounded better than "Hermes'".
>>2916220 Not him, but I think that after Water Temple the game suddenly feels like it's rushing to a conclusion and everything becomes so much faster paced. Maybe it was intentional, but it always bugged me when I was younger.
>>2932326 Uhm, because it's very obvious that those elements were scrapped due to their unfinished remnants remaining in the game. I don't think that's a bad thing, because it leaves it to our imagination on how much better this already incredible game could have been. Nowadays game-makers will just remove any remnants of things that they decided to scrap which is understandable for cohesiveness, but I miss the way old games were designed.
But yeah, it's well known that OOT was unfinished. Hell, Ura Zelda was supposed to be an expansion pack for OOT that was going to include a lot of the things that weren't present on original release, but the project ended up being completely restructured into MM.
>>2941081 Not canon. Stop posting this flame war bait. We all know it's Neo-Nintendo trying to dump all the old games in a trashbin, because the original writers have disbanded or don't work on Zelda. Kaepora is not Rauru. There is no third timeline because the Sages are dead and there are no Hylian guards in the future, even if they were alive. OoT ToT is not the Sealed Temple. Etc.
>>2941108 Ura Zelda was not Majora's Mask. It was always just supposed to be a dungeon remix. It was released in Japan for the 64DD. Zelda Gaiden was a completely different thing that came about from Aonuma not wanting to remake the same game as he puts it.
>>2941081 No. That's literal fan-fiction bullshit that outright contradicts established in-game canon throughout.
I don't really think that the idea of multiple timelines in Zelda was officially in place within development canon until Wind Waker came around.
Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link are their own unique fantasy stories, Nintendo was just making an interesting series of fantasy action RPG's. Not thinking really about story. It was a Dragon Quest type thing, none of the games were really connected, but planned to have lots of things that carry on throughout the series, regardless, like character/town names, and a focus on conquering dungeons.
A Link To The Past was the series becoming a lot more focused on narrative because they were able to. Introduced a lot of incredibly important elements to Zelda canon. Since it was the first narrative Zelda game though, it could be seen as initially stand-alone.
The Oracle games are odd within the timeline. As I mention next, Links Awakening is intentionally meant to be a sequel to A Link To The Past, and the linked ending of the Oracle games is clearly intended to show that it ends right before Link's Awakening begins. The frustrating thing is Link and Zelda having apparently never met before. I don't have any explanation for that.
Links Awakening is explicitly a sequel to A Link To The Past. Things from the previous game are mentioned or appear subtly but intentionally to show that this is the same Link, such as Dethl taking on the form of Agnahim and plenty of other little things.
>>2941210 Ocarina of Time is an adaptation of the opening of A Link To The Past referring to the war of the sages. Clearly Nintendo is going for some type of timeline that spanned across time, but again, I don't think they really envisioned that split timeline at this point, and was a later addition, whether came up with from the developers, or brought to the attention of developers from fan theories by people who noticed the possibility for a split timeline.
Majora's Mask is just it's own standalone sequel to Ocarina of Time.
Wind Waker is when the idea of a split timeline arguably is first introduced seeing as it doesn't take place in a timeline following Majora's Mask, and clearly is focused on the time that Link no longer belongs to as he was brought back to the past at the end of OOT. It's possible this could just be a what-if scenario type game from the developers.
Twilight Princess is were the timeline becomes confirmed canon, seeing how it shows that the timeline did get split by Link getting sent back in time, as it focuses on the OOT-MM timeline.
The split-timeline theory is the only thing that was ever hinted at being canon within the games themselves, and I had seen plenty of fan-made timelines (I even was big on making them back in the day as well) that focused solely on the established split-timeline theory that managed to work in all the games despite minor contradictions because Nintendo wasn't really intending to have some cohesive grand canon right off the bat, they were just kind of making the games and the universe as they went along.
The Historia timeline just reeks of them wanting to one-up the fans and coming up with their own "NEVER BEFORE SEEN" timeline despite the fact that it works even less than the split timeline theory, and nothing about a "downfall timeline" is hinted at within the games.
>>2941074 I thought the pacing after the Water Temple was fine. The two required Young Link segments add some meat to the game. If anything, it was the pacing from the end of the Forest Temple to the end of the Water Temple that was too fast. IIRC, you didn't encounter much resistance entering the Fire or Water Temples, you sort of just walked from one to the other.
>>2941219 That's a myth. Do the research and you'll actually see that they never planned that. http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=interviews
I fell for the whole "URA Zelda is the true sequel to OoT that depicts his adventures in the child timeline" movement too. But think about it. The ending of OoT was deliberately ambiguous because what happens after is meant to be for the player's imagination. MM is not connected to Hyrule and therefore was an exception.
The origin of the myth comes from Miyamoto saying that he wanted more features in OoT that utilized the 64DD's magnetic strip, so as to record Link's footsteps and slashes on objects. And yes, he did want to implement that in Master Quest. BUT ONLY IN MASTER QUEST. And maybe it would have been done, if Aonuma had made the remake. But instead they just churned out a budget ROM-hack that only rearranged the actors and order of the dungeon rather than the layout itself.
THAT is all that Ura Zelda ever was. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but you have to. There was never a super secret OoT sequel intended by Nintendo.
>>2941449 To discuss games. Fine, I skimmed your post. You're just reiterating what everyone already knows while contributing nothing of at least major substance.
Also, the timeline was in dispute well before TWW. There's been a timeline since there were three games. ALttP subverted the entire notion that Zelda II was the origin story of Zelda's name in the game before it. That's where the mystery began.
I actually am planning on doing a video retrospective on OoT, as well as some other games. I've been planning on doing it for more than a year though so I should probably get off my ass and just do it.
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