How do multiple discs work? With FFVII, for example, you have access to the same overworld and the same enemies with the same characters, for the most part, all using the same maps and models. So both discs have to hold all that data, don't they? So what's the extra room for? Cutscenes?
This, yeah. Why do you think discs with a lot of cutscenes are so short? In FFIX disc 1 was the shortest I believe, because it had so many cutscenes.
Graphical quality didn't have much to do with it, either. Vagrant Story was a beautiful game but only took up 66MB (one disc is ~500-700MB) because you didn't have any cutscenes (or at least they were rendered using the in-game models).
I guess video compression used to be pretty horrible. Final Fantasy games never had extremely lengthy cutscenes, it's usually, say, ten minutes per disc. According to Youtube all the cutscenes on FFIX's 4 discs take up only 35 minutes but occupy like 1.5GB of disc space.
>Vagrant Story was a beautiful game but only took up 66MB
Is that not including the little bits of FMV it has? That could fit on an N64 cartridge as it is if you shaved off only 2MB.
FMVs (cinematics) took up a lot of data. They could average 50 - 200 MB each. The encoding methods are similar to videos you probably store on your computer.
The graphics data, textures, maps, models, and even the soundtrack (assuming it was in the console's native format) were all just a few megabytes combined.
For comparison, N64 games didn't have FMV sequences, relying only on scripts that rendered cutscenes using in-game models. An N64 ROM might average 4 - 32 MB in size, and some of these games have a similar amount of assets as games like FF7.
Vagrant Story had only two FMVs. The intro is relatively short, and the ending sequence
was just a collage of artwork.So the entire game - FMVs included - could be compressed to under 100 MB.
>even the soundtrack (assuming it was in the console's native format) were all just a few megabytes combined.
The soundtrack to the FF7 consists of midi files which are a few KB each.
MIDI for the PC version, PS1 version is more like tracker music so the samples take up space too. But FF7 uses low quality samples (FF8 and FF9 are much better), so the whole soundtrack is only about 1MB.
A lot of people are saying 'cutscenes are big', they obviously must be referring primarily to FMVs but just to clarify this: in-game (unvoiced) cutscenes take up next to no space. They're just scripted events.
Not just FMVs, but background images too.
I mean there's no reason for disc 1 to have Northern Crater backgrounds, right?
>The encoding methods are similar to videos you probably store on your computer.
PS1 discs used MJPEG video encoding.
Modern encodings can be way superior in quality while using a lower bitrate, but of course they need much higher processing power in return to decode.
Even back in the mid 90s, MPEG was significantly better than MJPEG, but it was also much more expensive to implement, so they went with the cheaper solution (that was already the best in a console).
>MIDI for the PC version, PS1 version is more like tracker music so the samples take up space too.
PS1 version was like that too, a midi like instrument sheet, plus samples. But on a PC, not all soundcards allowed for changing the midi samples - the ones that allowed, sounded as good as the PS1 version.
And the N64 also used sound like that since it was more efficient space-wise than just storing pre-recorded audio.
Cutscenes, text, enemy and boss models, scripts to run story events, etc.
The cutscenes took up the most space, but you can name a lot of things that would be exclusive to one disc or the other.
>The most I've seen was Phantasmagoria's 7 discs.
Phantasmagoria on the Saturn was 8 discs.
Blue Dragon on x360 was 3 DVDs.
Modern AAA games tend to be 20-50gb (probably due to HD cutscenes).
All of those things you just listed are on every disc in FF7.
My disc 1 for FF7 was pretty scratched up and would halt in battles on the world map, so I'd just swap the disc out for disc 2. It would work just fine, but the cutscenes would be all wrong. So when it's meant to play the 10th cutscene of disc 1 it would actually play one from disc 2.
Doesn't the SEGA CD use redbook for soundtrack audio though? It's just playing a CD while the game is loaded in RAM. That's a little different from streaming uncompressed audio since it would be a multi session data / audio CD. Would still result in a large ISO for sure.
Was there another multi-disc game on PS1 with as many discs as Koudelka? And is it entirely FMV bloating or do certain parts of the game only exist on certain discs?
>That's a little different from streaming uncompressed audio since it would be a multi session data / audio CD.
It doesn't really differ, other than putting less strain on the drive (cd audio is played back at 1x rate), using less space, but also being incapable of looping (no byte-level addressing, no audio buffer in early consoles, etc).
It's not just cut scenes. It's all the audio tracks to specific moments of the game as well as all the dialogue.
And not every area is available on the following discs; like for example the part of the Midgar sewer Cloud, Tifa, and Aeris get dumped into after Don Corneo's palace. You won't find that on disc 2 or 3.
>Modern AAA games tend to be 20-50gb (probably due to HD cutscenes).
They're 20-50gb because of lazy developers not putting time and effort into compressing their shit. Thanks bluray for making developers lazy!
absolutely everything I was gonna say. this is basically /thread. thanks!
That's usually called tracker music, as >>2901034 said.
MIDI is a specific interface and standard file format. Tracker music is samples + sequence data to play back these samples. MIDI music is composed using a sequencer as well. Basically, tracker music is more generic, MIDI is a subset, using one specific encoding, and not providing any samples, relying instead on standardized samples in MIDI hardware or synthesis
bluray has abysmal seek times. It's a pretty bad system for games. Dynamically loading open world data, like textures or models, is a nightmare. What is trivial for bluray is streaming. Audio, video, sequential reads with high throughput. That's why modern games require installs, and early PS3 games were either small, or heavy on cutscenes (you can stream the audio for those). In that regard, bluray makes devs anything but lazy. Where does asset compression fit in on this? You do want to compress them quite well, actually, to fit as much of them in RAM as you can, to avoid dynamic loading, due to the mentioned seek times. Storage is not the weakest link with bluray, speedy retrieval is.
Am I the only one that misses this gimmick?
There was something very satisfying about reaching the disk changing point after several hours, putting the old disk back and inserting the shiny new one in. Not only did it give you an approximate idea of how close you were to finishing the game, but RPGs at least always did the disk change around a particularly high point in the story, which made it all the more satisfying when you finished a disc, it felt as in reaching the next season in a long running show.
>Its cutscenes are FMV
A few of them are. The game is also filled to the brim with non-FMV cutscenes. It is important to differenciate otherwise some people are going to get it into their head that all these jumping polygons somehow take up a lot of disc space.
>otherwise some people are going to get it into their head that all these jumping polygons somehow take up a lot of disc space
People already think that. That train has left the station long ago.
This. I used this trick to get to areas I knew were fucked thanks to scratches. It actually helped me in IX as well to load up Lindblum for the first time because disk 1 wasn't able to after the FMV finished
>I'm a youngfag who doesn't understand
The novelty isn't in the break, but the intuitive sense that the game is just too epic to fit on one disc. Aligning with the story is just icing on the cake.
>intuitive sense that the game is just too epic to fit on one disc
Never had that. Multi disc games pissed me off, because they just showed the devs were cramming non-game elements (audio sequences, fmvs) on there or not being frugal with data. It's what you call a "cinematic experience" nowadays. It was a dark time when games were light on content (little more than the old moving characters around on screen, or just plain stringing fmv sequences together) because shit-for-brains devs didn't know what to do with all the space on CDs. Hell, CDs were a bad idea, because seeking time is death for interactivity. Most of the available space was utterly useless, as you could only stream it at a certain speed. So most CD games had a small memory footprint for actual interactivity, and padded it with the fad of the month, fmvs and cdda.
There were many games with a much smaller footprint that were much more "epic" in their story and presentation, and actually good games, that didn't have to reply on crappy videos and prerendering to get their point across.
Oh, and go fuck your dumbass assuming self with a rusty rake, shitstain.
wrong again, shitstain. DOS and Windows. I didn't bother with shoeboxes. Doesn't change that the PS fucked up development of gaming, and it's still ongoing. Subsequent platform releases cemented the error even further (DVD, UMD and BD). We get linear dumbed down actiony cinematic shit, because it's practically the only thing that works on discs, we get HDD installs, even on shoeboxes, because it's the only way to reclaim some of the access time. Go look at the corridor shooters, the room - corridor - room arena progressions. Shit's fucked, and you're too dumb to even get it.
I can spend a decade programming the most convoluted self modifying procedurally generated marvel of programming architecture and virtuality, and it would be barely 1MB of binary. Or I could spend a day recording the blue "no channel" signal from my TV uncompressed, and it would be 1TB. Size is meaningless, as far as amount of "content" (bad word for games, really) or its quality is concerned.
you can get 100+ hours out of a NES RPG that's barely a couple hundred kB in size, you get literally thousands of hours of half a CD full of Arena/Daggerfall. Stretching RPG mechanics over time is trivial. As established in this thread, the actual game, the engine, its visuals, occupies very little space. The largest faction of the data on the disc is audio work and cutscenes. We're talking about a full hour of uncompressed audio, a few more hours of compressed audio, or minutes of fmv. That's not even a blip on the hours of game that you mentioned.
Platformers are usually shorter, because their mechanics are much harder to stretch. The levels need to be crafted and playtested. That puts a limit on the length and complexity of these games. Compare that with RPGs, where you have the timeconsuming work of initial balance and value tweaking, but then can just chain encounters as you see fit.
It's why even today you have platformers just a few hours, although the discs hold much more data. It's why even today modern action corridor shooters are only a handful of hours. It's why modern RPGs, even ones that use considerably less space than, say, Portal, can be dozens or hundreds of hours long, if the developers want.
>you can get 100+ hours out of a NES RPG that's barely a couple hundred kB in size, you get literally thousands of hours of half a CD full of Arena/Daggerfall.
i can also spend a million hours staring at my carpet, that doesn't make it fun or remotely entertaining you dunce
If you're too unfamiliar with NES RPGs, take a game like Pokémon. People spent hundreds of hours in it, highly entertained. The game is a 1MB ROM. Not all of it is game data. The thing to take away from this is simply that playing time is not a function of data.
Well in my case it was the only way to beat the game, my disc 2 was scratched and would freeze at cutscenes but I could swap in disc one or 3 and play to the next save point, save and then swap back. It will get glitchy and corrupt your save if you play too far I think