This was the last good Mana game. It had beautiful music, the graphics and the atmosphere went hand-in-hand that made you feel like you were playing a painting, but fuck, most importantly it was fun as hell. I just don't know what happened to the Mana series, because LoM was the last time the thunder struck.
>>2884396 >whats /vr/ thoughts on legend of mana It's unbelievably charming, but IMO the battle system is poorly implemented.
>>2884406 >I just don't know what happened to the Mana series, because LoM was the last time the thunder struck. Some of the people involved with the series left Square and formed Brownie Brown (now known as 1-UP Studio).
>>2884417 I think you mean children of mana. It reused a most assets from Seiken Densetsu 3 except they made it look worse somehow and it's focused on mmo style multiplayer, very repetitive and boring.
>>2884437 >crafting Was there any direction to the crafting, though? That is, any sort of hint from the game like "Combine these items in a particular sequence and you'll get X" for the player?
All I remember is an old GameFAQs article that went into great detail about how properties interact with one another -- and, subsequently, how to forge the most powerful weapon from a long list of rare items -- but the game just seemed to expect you to do it blindly.
>>2884396 >i don't think its a good follow up to the mana series I agree with this, generally. On the other hand, it's a really ambitious game that tries a lot of cool things. I'm not ecstatic about Legend of Mana, but I often find myself referring back to it positively when other games do something similar.
>>2884483 I remember that, they explained the crafting system in an official guide you were supposed to buy separated from the game and even that didn't fully explain how to create the strongest weapons either. Pretty dick move from Squaresoft.
But anyway, you don't even need to craft anything unless you're attempting to beat the post-game in nightmare mode. Just trial and error should do fine.
>>2884396 Overall it was really good. The bad things about it are that the combat sucks compared to the other games because when it starts your character is forced only facing left or right. It's still fun enough that it doesn't ruin the game, but it's by far the worst thing about it and a very strange decision.
The other is that there's an amazingly deep crafting system that lets you forge and refine weapons and make some really crazy powerful stuff. That part is great. What's not great is that the game then doesn't give you anything worth using super powerful weapons on.
Because of a glitch a lot of enemy health, including all the bosses doesn't scale with difficulty. So even on Nightmare Mode where everything is level 99 and meant to have super buffed stats. I breezed through it, killed the final boss in just two hits and I didn't even have a crazy powerful forged weapon.
If you don't go nuts with crafting it has a decent challenge to it though and the more you play, the more used to the clunky combat you'll get.
Other than that everything is top notch. The story is more of a series of short vignettes, a pretty unique take for a JRPG and it works really well and gives lots of room for replay. Graphics and music are both breathtaking as well.
>>2884417 It's not a retro game but I'll discuss it briefly just to warn you. That's one of the most boring, stupid, pointless and grindy games I've ever played. Don't waste a moment's time on it.
>>2884483 Yeah the crafting is super complex. All these years later I barely remember it, just that I used those huge gamefaqs articles and talking to people on the boards to figure it out.
You forge elements, bonuses etc onto your weapon, but you can keep doing it as long as you want. There are a certain number of slots that can be active, but if you forge with certain items in certain ways then you can push older bonuses you've forged so that they're not in the active slots anymore but still affect the weapon.
Something like that. Also there are a couple of items that allow increased forging where there's only 2 or 3 of them in the game. So people would go through multiple playthroughs to collect many of them and be able to make incredibly powerful weapons.
But like I said here >>2884594 it's pointless. All I did was make a powerful flail in a single playthough and that alone made even the hardest mode laughably easy.
So as neat as the forging system is, it's better just tinkered with or ignored in my opinion.
>>2884396 It has the very same problems of the series as a whole, garbage, clunky and unbalanced combat.
Sure, it sounds and look amazing, like all the other games, it has a neat non linear progression, a great crafting system, interesting Golem system and a shitload of stuff to do, but at the end of the day it just plays bad because it's plagued by terrible design and balance decisions.
Series rot is a thing and unfortunately Mana topped out at II. III suffers from input lag/unfocused design and IV is beautiful to look at but changes the fundamental gameplay so much it's hard to consider it a Mana game. Funny how something almost identical pretty much happened to another similar Square franchise.
>>2884491 Did you know that the Japanese version came with a huge booklet compared to what we got in instructions? Same thing happened with SaGa Frontier IIRC, it didn't help with making either of them fun to first time players.
There's still a lot of stuff we don't know about the game mechanics either way.
>>2885054 Ah, I see now. Well, I'm one of those who vastly prefer Cross to Trigger so I can't say really say much about it, it's also pretty hard to not consider it a Chrono game when there are only two entries in the franchise and a VN, there's really not a definite "identity" to speak of for me.
And on a second thought I'm not quite sure I agree with you on Mana either as every game changed a bit while retaining some general degree of similarity in gameplay, I can see why two directional combat puts a lot of people off, but the battle system per se is fundamentally the same in each title, with the same exact flaws each time and even more added with each iteration.
Actually, the core combat has hardly changed form SD on the GB, the only big differences I can think of are weapon charges and weapon arts, all the rest is more or less the same design with some tweaks. What has really even drastically changed the Mana series besides the addition of more optional features? Legend of Mana is the only one that tries to break out from the mould formed bby SDII and III while the rest in turn goes back to the roots, or at least that was my impression, but I'm not really a fan of the series and I've played them superficially, I'd really like to hear something from the Mana fans here.
>>2885094 >Well, I'm one of those who vastly prefer Cross to Trigger I was going to rage but this puts the rest of your post into context. >with the same exact flaws each time Uhh, no. >and even more added with each iteration Which would mean that each successive game was worse than the last... which is what I was saying. I actually liked the GBA remake(though it had issues and doesn't measure up to II) but aside from that it was downhill. >Actually, the core combat has hardly changed Umm let's see, removing the radial menu, 2D sidescroller instead of isometric, very different use of elementals, off the top of my head. That was just the jump to IV, we won't even get into V.
I'm actually trying to unbrick mmy psp1000 so I can play this (but all the unbricking guides have download links that go nowhere, so advice is welcome).
Anyhoo, Secret Of Mana was my first RPG, and in a way, remains my favourite because of its impact. Then I discovered a fan-localised sequel existed, which lead me to discover emulation. I was in fucking heaven as I realised that SD3 was in many ways even better than SoM.
I've heard mixed things about LoM but enough good things that I want to give it a try as I want a comfy adventure. I am yet to play FFA, but I hear a Vita remake is coming. Is the GB original worth it?
>>2886150 also, I think the main guy behind the Mana series was Koichi Ishii. I think he currently runs Grezzo Games, who work with Nintendo, and did the Zelda 64 remakes. I wish they'd do a spiritual Mana successor
>>2885054 >>2885054 I also like Cross better than Trigger. But that's because I like the combat system in Cross and it was short. I didn't love it, but I did get all the way through it. Something about Chrono Trigger has always bored me, after a bunch of tries over the years I've never made it all the way through.
I am extremely picky about RPGs though. Me and Final Fantasy IV have the exact same relationship.
>>2886785 >>2886785 I think I'm the opposite of the people who don't like the charging so they ignore it. I barely use any magic when I play the game. Which is certainly a flaw in the design, but actual control wise I think it's really good.
That game is by far my favorite in the series though.
LoM is truly an amazing game. The combat system gets a lot of flak for being babby-tier. But anyone who plays this game isn't playing it for the mindless combat.
The pet-raising, crafting, and golem-building are where the real game lies. In figuring out what combinations result in which effects and statistics you wish to draw out and maximize.
Also, the game's approach to perspective is pretty satisfying philosophically. I could rant about it, but won't go into details. If you're enough of an autist like myself to appreciate it, then you already understand. But in short, the world does belong to each of us, and our view of it is what we choose to make it. But it takes a lot more pain, struggle, and intelligence in reality to effect your lives in any meaningful way and not just meander through your life as someone else's background NPC.
Just as a means of introduction for those who aren't aware, no two people living on this planet actually live in the same exact world. When two people read the same exact passage describing a sunset, they each see in their mind's eye an entirely different vision based on their own personal perspective and experience.
Anyway, best track coming through: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7fi0ebkkIM
>>2889027 Literally any other action RPG. I dunno, Alcahest, Arcus Odyssey, Soul Blazer, Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, Neugier, Gunple, Zelda (in b4 not an ARPG, whatever), Crusader of Centy, Spike McFang. All these games didn't have the pseudo ATB gameplay Secret of Mana had. Even Evermore's gameplay was better. If you want to call it an ACTION RPG, the games needs to have ACTION. In Mana "action" is constantly interrupted by the wait between attacks, by the charge, by the shoddy companion AI that gets them stuck in odd places, by how magic targetting stops you dead on your tracks. It's clunky and unbalanced as fuck. Mind you the game is charming and fun nonetheless, but saying it has "some of the best combat of ANY action RPG" is just wrong. I know "best" is subjective but it barely qualifies as an action RPG as it is, and I don't think many people would prefer clunky, constantly interrumpted pseudo "action" to actual action RPGs.
>>2884597 The crafting is super complex sure, but solving it turned out to be simple. Once I stumbled on the method for hitting the 15th essence level it was really easy. Now when I go back and replay I just do that, as long as you place the bone fortress in the right spot, you can get unlimited mercury, sulfur, and spiny seeds. From there, you only need literally any elemental ingredient that can charge up an elemental spirit card to push essence levels to 15.
You can make 4 out of 8 essences max out at 15 without any conflict or advanced techniques. People used to make maxed out 999 power weapons by raising all essences up to about 8 so, finding the mercury/sulfur technique really takes the edge off the difficulty to attain that kind of power.
The only item that you would actually want that you can only get in fixed quantities per playthrough is Altena Alloy and by all means, Dragonscale, Adamantite, and Dior Wood are always better, depending on the exact purpose of the material, and all of those are rare drops. Altena Alloy is still in the top 5 materials though and it works for everything.
All that aside though, I really enjoyed making golems and raising pets and adding new special moves and special effects to my weapons and armor
>>2889080 >the pseudo ATB gameplay Secret of Mana had.
Considering that's specifically one of the things I like about it's combat we'll just have to disagree on this one. I reallly like the way you can charge for different types and powers of attack and choosing which to use in which situation is a lot of the fun in the game for me. I don't think any of the ones you mention control any more smoothly.
>>2889261 Like I said, all I remember was it being complex. Also back then not everything had been figured out at cleanly. But the point remains that there's really little point to it since it's easy anyways and really not what the game is about. I just wish the actual in combat controls were more fun. That would have brought it from a 7 to a 9 in my eyes.
>>2889379 >Considering that's specifically one of the things I like about it's combat we'll just have to disagree on this one. Nothing you mention after this talks bout the pseudo ATB gameplay. What I meant by this is how you need to wait a few moments after each attack for the bar to reach 100% on its own again or else you lose a LOT of power. The penalty for consecutive attacks is not progressive, ie wether if you attack at 10% or 90% you still lose the same amount of attack power. It's clunky, it's annoying, it means you can't ever have any sort of combos or successive attacks, and it means the action is constantly interrupted throughout the entire game.
>I reallly like the way you can charge for different types and powers of attack and choosing which to use in which situation is a lot of the fun in the game for me. This has nothing to do with how clunky the waiting is. It's not about charge like I said, and¨plenty of other games feature different weapons/magic elements/etc as well as the feature Mana lacks the most: the ability to attack whenever you fucking want.
>I don't think any of the ones you mention control any more smoothly. All those games share one thing in common: the ability to attack whenever you want without any penalty. This means combat is in real time, without any sense of "turns". That's an action RPG, and that's undoubtedly smoother than a game penalizing you for daring to attack in succession. Mana barely qualifies as an ARPG. If you think having to wait a couple seconds after each attack throughout the entire game is "smooth", you have cognitive dissonance. Or you haven't played any other ARPG ever.
>>2889443 >It's clunky, it's annoying, it means you can't ever have any sort of combos or successive attacks, and it means the action is constantly interrupted throughout the entire game.
The only part of this I agree with is that you can't combo and I don't see that as a bad thing at all. I like that you have to carefully pick when and where you attack in SoM instead of slashing constantly. You clearly have a different preference which is perfectly fine. All I'm saying is that I really, really like the way Secret of Mana does combat.
And yes, despite your little dig I've played pretty much every retro ARPG there is. The only ones of that era I prefer to SoM are Beyond Oasis and Legend of Oasis, and only the second one I would say has smoother better combat.
And again, not saying you have to agree with me. But just saying, not everyone sees SoM's charging system as a flaw and the game is pretty popular for a reason. Not everyone enjoys the exact same things out of games. I take a solid strategic charge system like Secret's to combos any day.
If you hit an enemy with an attack and your ally executes an attack at the same, before the damage rolls out it will add the two damages together. It maxes out at 999 damage but you 100% can combo enemies in Secret of Mana.
I'm not even sure how you're supposed to hit with some of the specials without using magic to lock the enemy down.
>>2889482 That guy is specifically complaining that it's not a button masher. Weapon charging in that game takes some time, especially for the bigger attacks. It's not super strategic, but I like the little bit of choosing how much to charge when for the best results. Certainly more than just button mashing on everything that comes on screen.
>>2889484 >Except Secret of Mana does have combos?Yeah but you can only pull them off if the AI chooses not to be retarded or if you're going 2 player. It's hardly an action combo, it's just adding up damage.
>>2889496 >That guy is specifically complaining that it's not a button masher It's a button masher that doesn't let you mash buttons. That's why it's clunky.
>>2889469 Beyond Oasis lets you have full control of your character at all times, makes successive attacks significant and satisfying, and doesn't force a "turn" style system. It's the exact opposite of Mana in many ways and a much better action RPG because of that.
Look it's fine if you like Mana, but saying it's better than ANY other action RPG is a stretch and if you can't see just how the wait system makes it clunky compared to every other smooth arpg then the problem's on you. I'm not saying Mana is a bad game but the gameplay is not smooth at all.
>>2889496 No, he's complaining that the game pauses every few moments and breaks up the flow play. That has nothing to do with button mashing. Winning a battle in SoM is brainless. You just mash the attack button and spam spells. It's not an involved combat system. You can apply a semblance of strategy to literally anything, but combat is SoM is about as shallow as it gets. Hell, even LoM has a better combat system since it incorporates different move sets despite being too easy.
>>2889554 >It's a button masher that doesn't let you mash buttons.
By definition that makes it not a button masher, and that's precisely why I like it so much. We really have nothing to talk about, or opinions are clearly completely opposite.
And to be clear, I like the Oasis games overall more than Secret of Mana, but in terms of the actual combat I like SoM more.
>>2889568 >You just mash the attack button and spam spells. I don't mash or spam, maybe that's why I enjoy it. At any rate, charging to unleash specific attacks is the opposite of mashing. And I never said it was amazing deep strategy, I just find it more interesting than typical ARPG combat.
>>2889578 Is English your first language? Button mashing means a game where you mindlessly press one or two buttons to win. SoM having annoying pauses doesn't exclude it from being a button masher. Holy shit lad get a grip
>>2889796 Everyone knows what "button mashing" means. You're a nerdy dork who's trying to bend the definition of a well-known term just so you can avoid admitting you were wrong about something. Desist.
>>2884594 >Because of a glitch a lot of enemy health, including all the bosses doesn't scale with difficulty. So even on Nightmare Mode where everything is level 99 and meant to have super buffed stats. I breezed through it, killed the final boss in just two hits and I didn't even have a crazy powerful forged weapon. Huh, my version wasn't like that at all, I remember switching to a harder difficulty on NG+ and not being able to damage shit since I had no idea how the crafting worked.
>>2893228 Sometimes you and your argument are so retarded that even though everyone else has told you how laughably wrong you are, you still need to find some way to be a dick about it in the hopes of saving face. That's where a nice smug picture of Penn comes in.
>>2895790 I think it's more about the narrative and the adventure than the gameplay to be honest.
Like it's not really supposed to be hard or super involving, it's not like there's no challenge at all either (things can get pretty hard if you rush too fast and end up against a tough area early on,) but it's supposed to be like
I play LoM when I just wanna chill out and escape a bit you know? It's like meditation or something, like iyashikei with a bit of fighting and heroics in it
>>2895793 >like iyashikei with a bit of fighting and heroics in it That's exactly the vibe I've got from LoM and the reason I love it so much. This and Atelier are the only games that manage to do that.
>>2895645 I was with you until Sword of Mana. Did you really like that? And more than Legend? I'm the guy who's been bashing Legend pretty hard here, but even with it's messed up combat and other missteps it's still a pretty good game.
I found Sword of Mana much more lack luster. I think Legend works well with it's item grinding, but Sword got a little ridiculous with it and it didn't fit as well somehow. Also it's a little thing, but the day/night cycling really bugged me. I liked that it was there but it wasn't on a timer, it went by when you go from screen to screen. And with all the item collecting, you're going back and forth between screens a lot to respawn enemies so it's changing constantly.
It's a minor complaint, but nothing else in it really stood out for me so that became a bit of a sore spot. What do you like so much about it? I'm considering a replay. Or do you just really dislike Legend?
>>2895663 >still desperately trying to call the least button mashy game in the series a button masher
>>2896892 >lack luster Not that anon, but Sword had item grinding? AFAIK you got a weapon, beat an area/boss and moved on. Sometimes there was some backtracking but nothing extreme. Also, it had a continuous storyline/map and a GOAT horror level that was leagues ahead of Legend's.
>>2896896 Are you saying more than one person is spamming the exact same completely nonsensical phrase over and over? Whatever you say, Andy.
>>2896898 My memories of it are fairly fuzzy honestly. I got it when it came out, blew through it and felt fairly unsatisfied in the end. I do remember for some reason having to go back and forth a lot and the day/night thing seeming weird. Other than that I mostly just forgot about it.
It wasn't absolute shit tier like Children was, but it didn't do a lot for me. Maybe it's because it's a remake, but also despite it's flaws I really liked the way Legend does it's storytelling and world building. I enjoyed it a lot more overall.
>>2896921 >Those are some of its main flaws though.
Well it's completely subjective. It's a very nontraditional way of telling a story, that's for sure. I can certainly see someone not liking it and preferring a linear story. But personally I loved it, both the way that you are putting this world back together from fragments and thought the little story vignettes were all very well done. The storytelling and world building is in my opinion the best part of the game.
The only thing I don't like about it, is that I wish they had made a series of transitional screens so you could walk continually from one section to the other. Being able to traverse the world as one big map would have been awesome.
>>2897025 So you're parroting the other guy calling it a button masher? That's cute. The other guy was a complete idiot who just kept repeating himself. Maybe you can explain better why you're calling the one game in the series with a charge system the "button masher"? It's literally the one SD game that is least button mashy because you charge your attack, position and unleash.
So! Please, do explain this contradiction for us because I'd really love to hear it. In SD 1, 3,4 and on you usually hit the attack button as fast as possible to lock the enemies in hit animation and kill them. That's what is traditionally referred to as "button mashing"
In SD2 Secret of Mana, you can do that if you want but you can also charge your weapons and then choose the best time to unleash a single large attack. That's by almost any definition the opposite of what is traditionally calling button mashing.
Please then enlighten us all. How is the game with the charge system more of a button masher than the games where the core combat mechanic is literally mashing the button as quickly as you can? What about charging up attacks is more button mashy than rushing in and attacking as often as possible?
I love Legend of Mana. I wish there was another game like it. I think it's the best in the Mana series. People praise Secret of Mana's soundtrack ( yes, it is good ) but it's got nothing on Legend of Mana
I remember slaughtering everything with the counterstrike/counterattack skills which were hilariously overpowered and also that the final enemy I fought before the last boss was not some demon, dark knight or some fairytale monster but a fucking mountain goat.
The game is beautiful, the soundtrack is great, and it has all sorts of hidden and complex mechanics to get stuck on. If they had fixed the combat instead of rushing it to completion, it would be one of my favorite games. It's too repetitive as is though, and I always end up playing something else instead of finishing it.
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