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/vr/ CRT THREAD
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You are currently reading a thread in /vr/ - Retro Games

Thread replies: 505
Thread images: 92
previous thread: >>1743791

These threads are for the civil discussion of CRT displays (TVs and monitors) as used for retro video games and systems allowed by the board rules in the current sticky (>>1392415). Subtopics *directly* related to this main topic are welcome.

Cheers! /crt/ go go go!

>go
>>
With the amount of arguing and confusion that's been going on in the last few threads I really thing that huge pastebin someone made a while back should be part of the sticky.

Does anyone still have that saved?
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>>1774604
If anyone does, I can try to give it a quick run through when I get home later. I haven't had the chance to participate in the threads as much as I used to so I'm not sure I've seen the most recent revision of it.
>>
What was wrong with the old thread?

Can someone save the goodness from the last thread?
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>>1774679
>What was wrong with the old thread?
Hit the bump limit
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>>1774727
Oh, thanks.
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He's tiny and he's old, but he's my CRT. I can't even find evidence of his existence online, either.
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>>1774756
>Power button in center
Heh. Never seen that outside of monitors.
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>>1774762
It also has a faulty... Starter? Where it can take a few presses to get it fully going. I'm worried that it's going to bite the dust soon...

I want a new CRT, but I'm attached to this one plus I've never seen a monitor-sized small CRT that has shit like RGB which would make replacing this thing worth it.
>>
>>1774772
Faulty starter? Do you mean the power button is loose and hard to press because the padding behind it is shit-tier like a lot of small TV's I know?

If it's something else and it still functions fine when it does power on, I'd say you might just need to replace a small component in the IC.
>>
>>1774772
I've got a sharp that I've got to button mash to start up. Best go hunting on craigslist for a nice trinitron, nothing on that old one is worth fixing.
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>>1774790
Nah. I see the screen go to turn on, then fail to turn on.

>>1774793
No trinitrons here ;_;
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>>1774802
Might be a power regulation issue. Unfortunately I'm not a hardware specialist and can only guess at the problem. But if you really are attached you could analyze the circuitry for any faulty components or just take it in for repairs.
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>>1774809
Nah, it's been like this for 2 years. Still works like a charm.
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>>1774818
Yeah I have no idea what causes the inconsistency. Maybe after failing to turn it on once, it builds up enough potential energy in the circuitry to more easily power it in full swing the next or next few times.

Dunno, just talking out of my ass.
>>
>>1774772
Probably bad caps.
Though I wouldn't suggest taking a fixing a CRT by yourself as they tend to have fairly dangerous stuffs inside.
>>
>>1774802
How? I live in the buttfuck south and there's 3-4 on my craigslist at all times, usually at least one in the free section.

Just search for sony and see what pops up.
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>>1774845
What's the state of electronic components these days as opposed to '80's and '90's?

Do they tend to last longer with better build quality these days, or is it the opposite because of China?
>>
>>1774863
Well at least in terms of caps most shit is better quality now after the whole motherboard debacle around 2001 or whatever. I think that the caps are usually what goes out on old electronics, and those are of better quality from what I know.
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>>1774867
Cool. I assume ion buildup is the main problem with inefficient capacitors in a manner similar to degrading life in batteries. The TV sitting idly unused for a long time contributes to this as well I assume.
>>
Oh yeah - I also use a Wii U in Wii Mode on my CRT for emulation
>>
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/300392-28-capacitor-aging

Can anyone confirm these figures?
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>>1774890
Depending on the type of capacitor there are several reasons for them to fail, from oxidization to simply drying up, though that generally takes several decades.
Bad capacitors are just badly made and will probably explode over time.
Pic related. It's Satan.
>>
>>1774946
Shame people make these in a dangerous way to the point they explode. How do they oxidize if they are (should be) hermetically sealed? Osmosis?
>>
>>1774932
Natural capacitor aging has more to do with temperature than the amount of usage.
http://chemi-con.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=19
The images in the link don't work but it's still a good and interesting read.
>>
Is there any way to fill in chips/cracks on CRT screens? It's only small but it's annoying.
>>
>>1774957
Wait, nm. I see the molecules of the electrolytes in use have oxygen bonds. So then the primary catalyst in degradation is heat since it drives chemical change to occur between electrolyte molecules to where molecules break their chemical bonds and reform into waste products.

Also, aren't there any new solid electrolytic wonder materials that won't boil and explode with excessive charge or temperature or generally be a hazard or problem in any way?

>>1775010
Watch out. The inside of a CRT screen is filled with a differently pressured gas which can implode upon a breach of the seal. It functions very similar to a vacuum tube.
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>>1774946
>Pic related. It's Satan.
How so? Electrolytic capacitors can hold much more power than any other type of capacitors while being much smaller which is required in integrated circuits.
The only time when then explode is when you apply much higher current than nominal, otherwise if they fail they just create a little amount of smoke and they are gone.
Of course they have a lot of disadvantages, but if you compare them to any other type of capacitors they still win in most cases.

TL:DR - They're good
>>
>>1775021

Haha oh shit. I'll have to be careful moving it in future . I mean it's only a small chip atm but yeah... All it needs is to be dropped
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>>1775056
>hold much more power than other type of capacitors
There's the powder keg right there. Sure, if you overload them in a minimal amount they'll probably only pop and release their pressure. But when you do have a massive power regulation failure get ready for Fourth of July to happen early.

But seriously, are there any new applied wonder materials that can do a better job these days?
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>>1775056
Clearly you aren't familiar with Fuhjyyu.
If you ever see a Fuhjyyu capacitor in anything there's a 100% chance that it's the first thing to die in that device.
They also tend to fail rather violently. The vents have a tendency not to open properly so they just get bigger and bigger until they blow their load all over the damn place.
TL;DR Electrolytic is not the worst capacitor type. Fuhjyyu is just the worst capacitor manufacturer.
On a somewhat related note, why are they not called condensers in english anymore? This annoys me to no end since in my native language they're called condensers.
>>
>>1774918

Sounds legit to me, as long as it can output 240p. Actually, do you know if the Wii mode can take advantage of the Wii U's superior hardware? Because then you'd actually be able to emulate the GBA worth a shit.
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>>1775120
>do you know if the Wii mode can take advantage of the Wii U's superior hardware?
No it does not; It has the same limitations and power as a normal Wii.

I haven't looked into it, but I was under the assumption that the Wii U wasn't capable of 240p.
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>>1775120
>can Wii mode take advantage of the Wii U?
Yes it can, fail0verflow (creators of the Homebrew channel) was able to activate two extra cores in Wii mode and while they still run only at Wiis' clock speed you have more of them

>Cores 1 and 2 boot with MSR[IP]=1, thus at the high vectors. The old Wii PPC EXI bootstub hardware is still present and controls the instructions read from there, so just perform the normal EXI bootstub configuration sequence from the Starbuck. This is not needed for Core 0, which already has IP=0 by the time you gain control. Just flipping the two boot bits in SCR is enough to get the two other cores up without doing anything else, although coherency will probably be broken/disabled. Also, keep in mind that this trick gets you access to all 3 cores but they still run at the old Wii speed (729MHz). Speeding up the Espresso probably requires full access to Wii U mode.
>>
>>
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Don't mind me just hosting some fake scanlines.
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>>1774772

You can buy a PVM on ebay. They are sort of expensive that way but totally worth it.
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>>1775425
those are fake?

It's a good fake it looks just like my MVS does
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An anon posted this pic in the last thread (>>1758334) and I had to save it.

I think I'm in love with this set. If that anon is still here (or if anyone else recognizes it) could you identify the model for me? I absolutely must have one.
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>>1775558

Look like a ProFeel monitor
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>>1775501
It's mame using some 'CRT Emulation' settings, or whatever you want to call them.

I nabbed my settings from some guy on a shump forum, you should be able to google up some settings. I do run my scanline brightness at about half what he does though, since it tends to wash stuff out a bit otherwise.
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>>1775563
That's fantastic. Thank you.
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>>1775563
Dat Pro Feel.
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>>1775581
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32" Sony Trinitron KV-32S42 (june 2000)

One of my friends was getting rid of it gave it to me for free. I dont blame him. Fucker is over 200 lbs with no lift spots (the tv not him)
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>>1775595
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>>1775595
Yo find out how to get in the service menu and see about fixing that geometry.

Otherwise looks great. Have fun with it.
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>>1775595
Looks like it needs degaussing.
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>>1775616
its just moire from the low resolution of the picture

>>1775614
ill look into it
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>>1775637
Maybe it's just the washed out colors used in that game. It looked like the electrons crossed into another phosphor's color plating.
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>>1775586
THANK YOU, I was looking for this pic today.
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Alright.. Where does one get a profeel? That's the best looking television I've ever seen.
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>>1775738
Man, I just scoured looking for info on them. My current theory is that they're all in the hands of enthusiasts or something to that extent. Which is sad because I'd easily shell out ~$700 for a work of art like that
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>>1775759
I would too.. Barring any obscene shipping costs. It probably still weighs well over fifty pounds. It's so sleek. It looks like the TV of my dreams, yet is doomed to remain so.
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Is a CRT the better option for classic anime?
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>>1775801

Yup. The colors are better, and the animation is smoother.
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>>1775819

>Face it, the only reason for watching old anime on a CRT is to make yourself feel like you're in the 90s again

Not it isn't you dumbfuck. Why do we talk about CRTs here? It's not about "Muh 90s Nostalgia, Muh Scanlines" like all those hipsters on /vr/ are thinking, it's because of the correlation of various advantages of CRTs: Smoother motion + better colors + better contrasts + better response time. The 3 first advantages are still present when watching animes on a CRT display. As the motion quality is better on a CRT, the animation appear smoother. That's easy to understand.

Also, why do you guys ALWAY comes up with the "Muh 90s"?
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>>1775801

I watch all of my 80s/90s anime on my PVM...It looks so much better than on my LCD.
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>>1775851
I do believe the smoother animation statement. The activated phosphor from the previous frame still has a minimal ghost-like effect (which can be large on shit monitors) which helps transition the effect of animation between frames.
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>>1775885

The ghosting effect is present on LCDs but not on CRT TVs (they don't have highly persistent phosphor compared to terminal monitors), when you scroll on a CRT TV, you don't see little details becoming fuzzy, while I still see them even on modern LCD monitors.
The reason is different: it's the flickering pictures. The flickers make the animation appear smoother as it's easier for our brain to interpret the motion, while Sample & Hold displays appear unnatural when in motion, thus making it difficult for our brain to interpret. Take a look at pic related.
There are some rare LCD models that can imitate a flickering display, and animations on these appear smoother too.
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>>1775851
>smoother animation
The frames are blurred together. That's the opposite of smooth.
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>>1775931

Frames are NOT blurred together. The motion on a CRT is smooth AND as sharp as a static picture.
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>>1775937
Nope, the phosphors take a fraction of a second to cool, which produces ghosting. It's "smooth" I guess in the same sense the repainting of Ecce Homo is more smooth than the original...
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>>1775950

There is no ghosting effect on a CRT that doesn't have persistent phosphor (like the green or amber ones found in terminals). What you think is ghosting effect are artifacts caused by an interlaced video signal. The top of a frame has already disappeared when the next frame start to be displayed.
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>>1775950
Phosphor decay depends on the build quality. Some are worse and some are better. On average, it's negligible and is far far cleaner an image than the LCD ghosting through slow switching times and sample and hold.
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File: IBM_5155_Amber_CRT.jpg (4 MB, 4288x2848) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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>>1775851
>>1775867
I do find that anime that is on hand painted cels look better on CRT. After the transition to computer colored cels it loses some of that advantage, imo.

>>1775963
I remember an old IBM 5155 Portable with an amber CRT at my college that did have really bad ghosting. Not much of a problem though when everything is text.
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>>1776121

I think it was used to minimize the eyestrain people who worked on screens could have.
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Opinions on connecting a laptop to a PVM through s-video for retrogaming and old animus?
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>>1776182

Laptop's S-Video output have a shitty quality.
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>>1776192

Ah...Okay...Thanks. I just got a laptop with an s-video output, but I had to order an AC adapter, so I haven't gotten the chance to try it out yet.
>>
Saw one of these at a thrift store yesterday and thought of you, /vr/.
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>>1776182
All built-in TV out jacks on laptops and desktop graphics cards go through TV encoders of varying quality. Some are fine, some are not, but practically all of them (if not literally all of them) can't output at arbitrary resolutions, just preset common ones like 480i for SD out and 720p/1080i for HD out. 240p and the like are out of the question due to those hardware locks, so you wouldn't be getting native res on most games.
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>>1776208
Hey I have that!
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>>1774604

This thing?
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>>1776318
I think somebody typed up a pastebin before, more convenient to edit and link to.
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File: IMG_1686.jpg (1 MB, 2000x1500) Image search: [iqdb] [SauceNao] [Google]
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I finally got a 15khz RGB monitor, and it's a 35"! Mitsubishi XC 3717c
What impresses me is that it looks best with brightness: 50, contrast: 50. And even composite shows strong scanlines.
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>>1776337
that's composite? damn

more pics? that looks fantastic
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>>1776337

>Mitsubishi XC 3717c

That's some really nice catch anon! Do you mind posting some photos?
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>>1776337
Pics of the connectors pls.
nudes would be appreciated too
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>>1776261
that's why he thought of you, silly
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>>1776318
Seems pretty good but obviously focuses on consoles instead of PC.
>>1776337
Holy shit, that's 250 lbs from what I've read.
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>>1776337

I don't believe this is composite. Please could you show the inputs? It's too sharp to be composite.
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>>1776340
>>1776387
That pic isn't composite. It's RGB. I don't have composite cables for the genesis, but I was looking at Saturn and NES through composite earlier. I can get a picture of composite after work..
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>>1776569

Oh I see. Don't hesitate to take photo anon.
>>
What risks do I run by cranking my computer monitor to 120hz? This monitor won't display it if you set it too high. I was able to lower the res then set to 120. If I'm able to display it am I fine or am I gonna eventually go nvidia on everything?
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>>1776658

I don't see any problem. Many CRT monitors can go up to 120Hz at 640*480, and sometimes more, so there's nothing to fear.
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>>1776667
I gotta try this on my monitor at home. Did it to my work CRT and oh my god just moving the windows onscreen looks good.
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>>1776675
Emulated games will have frame doubling though, since they only refresh around 60 times a second, resulting in an afterimage on fast scrolling. It's best to use 60hz for those
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>>1776716
I don't emulate. Unless dosbox counts.
Doesn't matter much for Chocolate Doom since that is capped at 35 fps.
But I want to try it with zDoom or Half-Life running at 60fps.
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I know we have a trinitron circle jerk here.
What do we consider the BVM of PC monitors?
Got this Dell from work but thinking about swapping it with an Intergraph 21sd107a.
Gonna test if the Dell can do 120hz first though.
>>
>What do we consider the BVM of PC monitors?

I think viewsonic made some good shit in their time. Sony did make PC monitors as well...
>>
>>1776741

FW9000 monitors, Mitsubishi Diamondtron, and some Viewsonic.
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>>1776741
I've been thinking about grabbing either one of those or a trinitron dell.
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>>1776741
The Trinitron BVM of monitors is...a Trinitron.
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>>1776741
>BVM of PC monitors
If you're looking for more that goes in line with the Trinitron circle jerk, FW/W900 and several other entries in the GDM line.
>>
Hoping someone in here can help me out. Lately I've been trying to put together a mame cabinet, and am stuck on the monitor.

Ultimately I'd like to play in native 15khz, but I've also heard of upscaling that to 31khz with minimal issues. I can't find that thread atm though.

If say, I wanted a monitor atleast 27" for doing this with a mame cab via VGA, what are some of my options?
>>
>that profeel when you don't have a 60hz 1920x1080 monitor to use for even modern PC games
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>>1776783
Isn't 27" a little big for a cab?
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>>1776785
>tfw my CRT can run that res with heavy letterboxing
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>>1776816
that's pretty standard for arcade monitors you can buy nowadays. I'd like to buy the least plebian arcade machine possible. 14" PVMs are laughably small
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>>1776785
For those of you curious about the monitor Carmack uses in that picture,
http://www.ceu-inc.com/intergr_6d.html
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>>1776835
>http://www.ceu-inc.com/intergr_6d.html
Oh damn it can do 85hz at 1920x1080.

>2,042 x 1,152 at 80 Hz
Was anyone using this res for anything in the late 90's? Don't even think PC games were rendering that high back then.
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>>1776835

Thanks for the link anon! That's some pretty cool information you got in this page.
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>>1776846

Games weren't, but graphic cards yes. It was used for CAD and 3D modelisation.
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>>1776337
That looks pretty much identical to an emulator with scanlines on a PC CRT. Nice grab.
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>>1776856

No it's not identical, on a PC CRT, the picture wouldn't have these kind of vertical lines you can see in pic related, it would appear flatter. That's the main difference between an emulator displayed on a 31kHz monitor and a real console or emulator displaying on a 15kHz monitor. The pixels on a 31kHz one appear flatter.
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>>1776868
I was referring to the sharpness.

As for the "vertical lines", that would be due to the tighter dot pitch on most later-era PC CRTs. The phosphors are much closer together than on most 15KHz displays, so things look closer to how they would on an LCD. I think only a BVM with its 800 lines would rival them on that front.

That said, the lines ARE still there on Trinitron-derived PC CRTs. They're just only visible at an extreme close up, as in pic related.
>>
>>
>>
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>>1776785
>>1776825
Yeah, my CRT actually goes higher than that, but it's 4:3. I can get 1920x1080 with letterboxing and 1800x1440 native.
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>>1776785
>tfw my resolution and refresh rate is lower than this
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Question about Windows seeing a Plug n Play monitor. If I don't have drivers and Windows is identifying my monitor as plug n play is the max resolution just a generic resolution or can my monitor actually do it?
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>>1777076

You can just uncheck "hid unsupported modes" if your monitor have a security, and experiment. If it has a security, it'll only tell you that he can't display that.
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How does an aperture grille and a shadow mask compare? What are the pros of each? Why does vr/CRT seem to prefer an aperture grille?
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>>1776764
>up to 2048x1536
holy fuck
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>>1777076
Depends on how you connected the monitor.
Usually the monitor stores, and relays to your computer, basic information about resolutions and such via EDID.
HDMI and a few other connection standards include EDID, as for VGA it can be there but it's not exactly standardized. Component, composite and just plain old RGBHV via BNC or something similar doesn't supply EDID at all due to the lack of data pins.
Fun fact: Most monitor drivers actually restrict you more than anything since they tend to limit the available display modes to what has been tested to be safe and functional by the manufacturer.
Whether or not Windows displays the correct information depends on whether it got the EDID at all and if it did, can it decode it properly.
In case you want to check if this information is indeed correct you should be able to find the max resolution of your monitor in its manual. Along with common resolution/refresh rate combinations.
If your monitor wasn't manufactured by a cheap and cheerful chinese slave then it should also list the maximum video bandwidth that your monitor allows. This can be used to theoretically calculate the maximum refresh rates for each resolutions. Though newer displays tend to have some safe limits built-in just so you don't accidentally fuck up anything, since not all refresh rate/res combinations have been tested.
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>>1776835
Geez, I wonder how many of those monitors were made. I'm actually planning on building a new gaming computer and I'd love to have a monitor like that for it.
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>>1776578
>>1776337

Saturn composite.

The colors sure aren't impressive, but the scanlines are still in full force.
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>>1777935
Connect a computer to it. Should support at least up to 1024x768.
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>>1777935
http://www.rentfusion.com/common/manuals/115.pdf
>Consumption: 270 W
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>>1778046
>>Consumption: 270 W

You forgot the part that it is 37" big. That's GIGANTIC for a 4:3 CRT. Modern ~40 inch displays do tend to eat about that much as well. Though probably not the more recent led backlight LCD screens.
>>
Anyone interested in a JVC AV-27BP4?

27", 2 AV inputs, 1 AV output, S-video, coax, all that jazz. Power button's a bit busted in but that's what remotes are for, right?

There's gotta be at least one anon in or near Daytona Beach who'll take it.
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Its my oly thing that lets me play some pong.
>>
I recently picked up a Trinitron KV-20S40 with a manufacture date of Jan 1999. Has composite only, but that's fine for me. Would really have liked S-Video but it was only $3.

Only thing I've noticed is that the scanlines are VERY faint. Barely visible at all when running my NES through it. My 2600 shows them a bit better going through RF. Is this normal? Growing up we only had shadow mask TVs and I can't recall ever seeing scanlines. The picture on this Trinitron is rather nice though.


>>1778361
You don't have any pic related just sitting around?
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>>1778481
My camera is broken, thats the only one I had, Still a perfectly working, 1978 Samsung.
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Saw this at Goodwill today...Had no desire to get it, but it's a generic PVM of some sort. Couldn't find a brand or anything...The label on the front just says "Multimedia Monitor" in a font that reminded me of elementary school...It did have plenty of inputs, though.
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>>1774596
Someone on Craigslist is selling an XBR960 for $25 and I can't find someone to go with me to pick it up.
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>>1778871

Where do you live?
>>
>>1774596
XBR800 for sale for $50.
http://gulfport.craigslist.org/ele/4555367899.html
>>
>>1778886
Bumble fuck Alabama.
>>
>>1778895

Ah...Too bad I don't live in Bumble Fuck, because I'd lend you my help if I did.
>>
Should i get this off craigslist?

I already have a KV-27FS100 but the geometry isn't perfect and i can't fix it in service mode.
>>
>>1776318
How do you know what SCART can carry RGB and which only carries Composite?
>>
What are you guys' solution for watching classic anime in a CRT TV?
I'm currently using a softmodded PS2 with SMS but it has some limitations like only working with xvid/mp3 and getting the aspect ratio slightly wrong.
>>
>>1776764
tfw i bought this for 360 and it worked for half an hour and then the picture started stretching and started jumping from the bottom of the screen to the top. It's probably nothing serious since this was in the manual but it's useless right now, and the bouncing gets worse.
>>
>>1779524

Discharge it and change the caps.
>>
>>1779462
Mimo Genius II
>>
>>1779532
Okay, i'll try that.
>>
>>1779462
Softmodded Wii for me.

>>1779452
Honestly, the only way to be sure is to either check the connectivity of the RGB pins or to actually take the cable apart.
>>
>>1779462

VHS
>>
>>1779849

This, and LDs.
>>
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Trying to see what refresh rates I can push out of this monitor but windows has this option grayed out. What do I do?
>>
>>1779998

Use the random PnP monitor drivers.
>>
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i've posted this on /g/, but this is probably a more suitable board

so anyway, here's a tv i picked up a few days ago for $5 and put together a vga>scart cable for, so it's hanging off my computer as a second monitor

tweaked the focus pot on the flyback today, which helped with scanline visibility and reducing bleed

pretty happy with it so far, i find it hard to get into older games i never had the chance to play knowing i'm just using an emulator on a computer, running the games on a real tv at their real resolutions with a controller (albiet an xbox s controller, but that doesn't detract much since i'm not looking at it) feels nicer (that and low res pixel art never really looks good upscaled on an lcd)
>>
>>1779998
add it in Nvidia control panel / power strip

you fag
>>
>>1779998
Use the "Custom resolutions" thingie in your graphics cards configuration utility.
For a further bit of control, ATI cards have special drivers which allow all kinds of fuckery. What's your favorite ATI driver, /vr/? Mine's Omega
3DFX cards have several tools available for this. KoolSmoky's is pretty much the best me thinks.
Most NVidia stuffs is for really old gpu. If you can't get it to work from the NVidia control panel thingie then you're pretty much out of luck.
>>
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This is my CRT. I use a wii with an RGB SCART cable for emulation and I think it looks great.
What do you guys think?
>>
>>1780019
>>1780026
Added it. Setting custom resolution. I noticed that the scan type is set to progressive. Should it be interlaced?
>>
>>1780036

Interlace if you want to double your vertical
resolution and don't care about your eyes.
>>
>>1780036
it should be progresive
be sure to use GTF timings
>>
>>1780043
Seems to be working at 1024x768 @ 120hz.
What risks are involved? Is it fine as long as it is displaying?
>>
>>1780106
It might die a bit prematurely if you're running it a lot, and i mean a lot, outside the specs it's been tested for.
If it's a newer CRT monitor, then it should tell you if you just went past the absolute maximum limits.
But usually it's fairly safe. Check the manual for suggested refresh rate/resolution combos.
>>
>>1778890

>XBR800

That is an HD set and is thus unsuitable for retro vidya. It also weighs 300 pounds, so good luck moving it anywhere.
>>
tfw 50hz and no remote
>>
>>1780170
A lot of Sony TV work with Sony remotes for other devices too.
If you've got a remote for a Sony VCR or something, try that.
>>
>>1780031
I have the exact same setup, and I think there is just something about the Wii that makes it a better emulator than most other ones. I guess using a GC controller is a bonus.
>>
Sanyo 88 watts 60Hz
>>
>>1780173
i think i have one for a vcr/dvd combo somewhere, hopefully it will save me from buying a universal one.
>>
>>1780170

If you feed it RGB it can accept a 60Hz signal.
>>
>>1780106
if something is wrong your monitor should display "out of range" error so there are no risk
>>
Hey guys, I'm using retroarch on Wii and for some reason when I switch down into 240p resolutions the picture starts quivering slightly, and scanlines seem less noticeable than usual. This doesn't seem to happen at 640x480i, anyone know what could be causing it?
>>
>>1780290

nvm, got to the bottom of it pretty quickly, it's odd though.

I don't like having to reach around the back of my TV to plug and unplug stuff so I use the front A/V in ports on a VCR/DVD player combo. For some reason the image quivers when the player is set to DVD mode, but not on VCR mode.
>>
>>1780306
could be something causing interference/weakening the signal
>>
Hey /crt/, I've seen this discussed a few times and there's a lot of misinformation/confusion floating around on the web about it, so I just figured why not clarify,
For those of you wanting to use a PS2 with RGB out over the component cables to play PSX games or whatever else, it does NOT output sync on green. I've read some people saying that it doesn't do that unless the content is 480p or above in some places (and I don't know how that would work since I thought 480p and RGB don't mix, but there you go?), but whatever the case, I tried it with my PVM and the screen was scrambled for 480i/240p sources (and the monitor was indeed set to SoG).
So it seems as though you'll need to use a component cable with an additional composite lead to do that, and a sync stripper if necessary.
I hope that clears things up for people wondering about PS2 RGB out into a monitor.
>>
>>1780365
i've read it did SoG when using the official vga cable for use with ps2 linux, though it's been years since i last checked

my guess is 'regular' 15khz RGB output (as opposed to 31khz, vga-spec RGB) just usese the composite video pin for sync, as is the usual way

>I thought 480p and RGB don't mix
they do, at higher horizontal frequencies than tv's can handle, though

also, don't forget that 'component' and 'rgb' are very different things, component isn't comprised of R,G,B signals, but rather Y,Pb,Pr, which is an entirely different standard and entirely different colorspace
>>
>>1780365
The only problem is that most of the component cables I've seen that have a composite output on them are crappy multi-system 3rd party ones. Are there any brands of cables like that that are good? It's not something I need because I have both SCART and component cables that work with my PS2 and PVM, but it certainly would help others.
>>
>>1780427
oh yea, adding to the final note, did you remember to set the ps2 to use RGB instead of YPbPr? it's in the settings in the bios
>>
>>1780427
PS2 outputs RGB from the same pins as it does component. That's why there's a switch in the BIOS.
>>
>>1780443
ah yep, that'd make sense

i've just recently become aware of the world of RGB

i suppose then it'd have to do SoG for RGB, no? the official ps2 component cables don't have a composite connector as well
>>
What program should i use to calibrate my CRT? I used the THx method but I don't think its looks that good.
>>
>>1780497
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/240p_test_suite
>>
>>1780503
Yeah thanks Anon
>>
I'm looking for a TV so I can speedrun SNES and hopefully Gamecube games with the lowest amount of input lag possible, what are things / brands / inputs I should be looking for in a CRT?
>>
>>1780632
see
>>1776318

or, you know, actually read through the thread you shit
>>
>>1780365 here, I did indeed set the PS2 to output RGB over the cables in the bios, and set my monitor to take sync on green. It was scrambled, as I noted. Unless my monitor is messed up and the SoG setting isn't working properly, it uses separate sync. So >>1780467 The cable pinout is probably made to utilize it, but the PS2 doesn't send any signal through the composite in YPbPr mode, is my guess. Most cables probably simply forgo a composite lead altogether, because usually when people use component cables they use it for... Well, component.
>>
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>>1780909
This is the scheme to connect PS2 through RGB SCART, pins as follows:

1 ground
2 audio right
3 ground
4 audio left
5 luminance
6 composite sync
7 chrominance
8 ground
9 blue video
10 +5V DC
11 red video
12 green video
>>
>>1780935
I wasn't using a SCART cable, which I assume should work fine? I was talking about using a component cable and setting the component video out to RGB.
I did get a properly colored picture, so it CAN work that way... It just needs sync. The common misconception is that sync is carried on the green line just as it is when the bios is set to component. I just wanted to clarify that that is untrue, for what it's worth to you all.
>>
>>1780935
Thank you, though. I would like to get RGB working so this might be the route I take.
>>
>>1774596
Will component cables on my PS2 affect the refresh rate in any way ?
>>
>>1780909
i wonder if wiring green into csync will work (as in, would it use the sync pulses from it as it would a composite video pin)
>>
>>1780951
>The common misconception is that sync is carried on the green line
It indeed is, but ONLY in PS2 Linux, nowhere else.
>>
>>1780993
shouldn't, it's all the same pixels, just sent to the display in a different way (which is done by seperate hardware, the GS/gpu doesn't give two shits about how the picture gets to the tv)
>>
>>1781012
Great, so is there any way to change a game's refresh rate via hardware ( I've tried everything software related and nothing worked. )
>>
>>1780632
crt's naturally use RGB in the end, so using RGB directly should equal minimum lag (through SCART or an internal modification), since anything else will need to be processed to some degree to turn it back into RGB
>>
>>1781023
what are you trying to do?

switch between PAL/NTSC? over/underclock the machine?
>>
>>1781000
If I had the technical experience and means with which to do so, I would try it right now. I get the feeling it might not work all that well, though; maybe produce a twitchy picture?
It would be awfully convenient if it'd work. No SCART cable or adapters, no third party universal cables or sync strippers, just a regular component cable with some added wire from green to csync, yeah?
>>
>>1781034
Switch from PAL to NTSC.
>>
>>1781038
Tell me what exactly did you connect and where. PS2 is natively capable of Component out, there is no need to use adapters, strippers etc.

>>1781061
If you have a steady hand and some money you can go and buy yourself a Matrix infinity modchip, it has those features as well.
Be aware that there is a shitload of clones, if it doesn't look like pic related, then it's fake. Most of the time you aren't able to change anything in settings since it can't save anything (and I heard that it sometimes renders chip useless)
>>
>>1781061
normally this is done by either getting the other region version of the game, or using a built in 50/60hz selector on certain games
>>
>>1781085
>PS2 is natively capable of Component out
he's using an RGB monitor, not a component monitor
>>
>>1781085
ok, that has got to be the tightest modchip installation i've seen
>>
>>1781085
>that wiring
HNNNNNNNNNG
>>
Hey /vr/, currently in my local area on craigslist there are two Sony PVM monitors for sale for around $60

-Sony PVM-12710
-Sony PVM-1344Q

Which out of the two do you guys recommend?
>>
I'm working on a CRT set up myself.

Found my N64 and some other old consoles, I really missed playing them and emulation just lacks a lot of what I want.

Really excited for it, the rest of my gaming is done via PC and it will be nice to have a console counterpart again.

I don't own a CRT yet, any quality brands I should be looking for?
>>
>>1780365
I can't speak for 15khz, but I use the PS2 component cables for 480p RGB with my NEC monitor. So they do output sync-on-green RGB.
>>
>>1781085
How do you even go about organizing the wiring that well? There's nothing to dictate the size of the wires on the right side. Was this trial and error, or is there a method?
>>
>>1781085
Not component -- RGB over component cables by setting the Component Video Out in the BIOS to RGB. The issue is the sync -- I believe it would work otherwise.
>>
>>1781113
>480p
That's the difference. Apparently it outputs SoG for RGB over the component cables for any source 480p or higher. Otherwise, it doesn't.
>>
>>1781112
Sony is the go-to.
>>
>>1781085
My PS2's already modded with a clone modchip bought from somewhere in Africa, it's written Matrix 2 ( not Matrix Infinity 2 ). I don't know how to dissassemble it and I don't have the tools to do so either. And nearly everything software related like using SwapMagic or FMCB didn't work.
>>
>>1781085
I don't think you can even find them for sale anymore, all there is is clones.
>>
>>1781118
he could have laid the wires down then snipped them where they needed to end
>>
>>1781118
That picture is actually from Google, my wiring doesn't look as good as that one but it's still good enough. As for how he did it, I can imagine that he has already installed alot of them so he knows how long those cables have to be.

>>1781143
Yes, that's a common problem, with a real MI FMCB works flawlessly. Did you try to disable it before? MIs are disabled by holding START right after you start the console and then reseting it, after that FMCB should work.

>>1781123
If you have time you can try to use that SCART setup which I posted earlier, R, G and B cables are clearly seen and for sync use composite.
btw. those high-frequency capacitors are there because PS2 somehow outputs really dark image without them

>>1781129
If I heard correctly, then SoG only works with PS2 Linux and nowhere else, there's the problem.

>>1781180
I got one 2 years back, it was brand new for 30€ but you are correct, it's really hard to find an original one nowadays after the FBI modchip raid in circa 2007.

Also, would anyone mind making another thread somewhere else as PS2 is still not /vr/ related and I don't want to bloat CRT thread with modifications.
>>
>>1781196
Sorry about polluting your thread with things that aren't retro related, I'll start a thread on /g/
>>
I have a question regarding PAL and NTSC

If NTSC is 480 lines and PAL is 576, do PAL TVs have a higher resolution (dot pitch) than NTSC TVs?

And how does this work for old consoles? Is is image positioned in the center? I can't imagine PAL consoles outputting a larger rendered image than NTSC consoles.
>>
>>1781212
I don't think it's a problem if it relates to the topic of CRT displays, which are generally retro in themselves.
>>
>>1781196
>Also, would anyone mind making another thread somewhere else as PS2 is still not /vr/ related and I don't want to bloat CRT thread with modifications.

My bad, I've been trying to use RGB to play PSX games on my PS2 (my original PS kicked the bucket) and I'd seen the RGB out issue discussed so I thought the sync might be useful information. Didn't mean to derail this so much.
>>
>>1781216
Most of the time? Yes, PAL CRTs have higher dot pitch but sometimes it's just an NTSC display and everything else gets lost in overscan. As for retro vidya, devs either rework that game for higher res or just add black lines on top and on the bottom so the visible area is the same resolution and the rest is just black (this is the most frequent scenario)

>>1781220
The problem isn't your question about RGB, more or less I'm afraid of ban if I would continue to talk about PS2 there.
>>
>>1781216
>If NTSC is 480 lines and PAL is 576
Yeah, that's perfectly true for BT.601.
But the real stuff isn't that simple.

>do PAL TVs have a higher resolution (dot pitch) than NTSC TVs?
Maybe. I remember that i read a datasheet about a actual CRT which featured a higher resolution for PAL.

>And how does this work for old consoles?
SNES can switch between 224 and 239 lines. So a PAL version might be adjusted to use 239 lines instead of 224.

>Is is image positioned in the center?
Yes, but a slight displacement to the left by about 6-8 SNES pixels is common when RGB SCART is used.

>I can't imagine PAL consoles outputting a larger rendered image than NTSC consoles.
N64 does, and that's very true for Zelda OoT.
>>
>>1781237
>The problem isn't your question about RGB, more or less I'm afraid of ban if I would continue to talk about PS2 there.
not him, but he did say he intends to use it to play psx games

is emulation (be it on a pc, wii, xbox, w/e) allowed? if so, there's no reason not allow ps2 for the purpose of psx games, right?
>>
>>1781085
>soldering directly to the ground plane
>>
>>1781085
>Most of the time you aren't able to change anything in settings since it can't save anything (and I heard that it sometimes renders chip useless)
I've got a shitty Modbo from Eurasia and the config menu is broken, but the chip still does what it needs to (boots CD-Rs like pressed discs).
>>
>>1781275
But then this has nothing to do with a CRT thread.

Anyway, it's ok to discuss it but still, /v/ might be a better place for it.
>>
>>1781263
When you start getting into early framebuffer-based consoles (PS1, Saturn, N64) there's typically not enough memory for a full-screen PAL display. The games have to be pretty much designed from the beginning with the larger screen area in mind.

(Consoles using sprite/tile engines don't have this problem, as the scroll planes are already larger than the screen and the sprites are only stored for one line at a time.)
>>
>>1779452
I use my ps3 with PS3 Media Server and component cables.

The only way I can think for watching in actual 240p on my PVM is using a PC with powerstrip/crtemudriver/soft15khz/linux/ArcadeVGA.
>>
>>1779452
you could perhaps test the continuity between the rgb ground pins and the shell ground

or try applying 1-3v to pin 16 (this is how scart devices tell the tv to switch to RGB mode), in the case of my tv, if i have a composite image displayed in av mode, and apply power to pin 16, the image at least goes black (expecting rgb to supply a picture, and repurposing composite video for a sync source)
>>
>>1781347
I was just thinking.
Another much more ridiculous choice of action could be an sd2snes making use of byuu's MSU1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yULkopwR8oA
>>
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This is the TV I use now, Phillips 27" 27PT543S37A (what a shitty name)

I really like it because it has Component Video in on the back as well as Audio and Video OUT so I can hook up to a stereo, which i do.
>>
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>>1781386
only problem is that there isnt enough S-video ports and the tv makes this god-awful high pitched shrieking. worse than any CRT i've had.
>>
What a tic, I thought using RGB for PS2 was slightly better than using Component...am I wrong? Or are they somewhat equal in video quality?
>>
>>1781495
Ugh, *Wait* I mean.
>>
What are you wii + crt owners using for output? I thought about trying to mod mine to work with RGB, but I keep reading that NTSC wiis fuck with the RGB output. Should I find a Component to RGB converter? I'm using an Amiga monitor.
>>
>>1781386
>Phillips 27" 27PT543S37A (what a shitty name)
Philips model numbers are among some of the worst in all of consumer electronics.
>>
>>1781495
If you're using a 480i tv, then RGB is your best shot.

If your tv can do 480p or more then component is your best shot.

I like how my ps2 looks on my pvm with the Scart cables more than how it looks on my Trinitron TV with component though.

I think its a matter of taste.
>>
>>1781276
Please tell me what is wrong with doing this. I'm genuinely asking since I always seek out wiring advice.
>>
>>1781495
>>1781506
RGB and Component are essentially equal in quality.

>>1781510
>NTSC wiis fuck with the RGB output
NTSC Wiis have RGB disabled, and I believe component is sent along the same lines.

Softmodding and region changing it to PAL will supposedly restore RGB functionality; I haven't taken such steps myself however.
>>
>>1781524
nothing, it just lacks of class.
>>
>>1781495
i'm not sure about how well YPrPb covers RGB colorspace, but with component you inevitably will be converting an RGB image to YPrPb, then back inside the tv (picture tubes are naturally RGB)
so there's processing overhead, not really sure about visual difference, even if there is one i don't know if it will be visible

... alright, wikipedia suggests there may be a technical different in quality, whether it's noticable will probably depend on the quality of the tv's signal processing hardware
>Signals that use YPBPR offer enough separation that no color multiplexing is needed, so the quality of the extracted image is nearly identical to the signal before encoding. S-Video and composite video mix the signals together by means of electronic multiplexing; however, more often than not the signal is degraded at the display end as the display is not able to separate the signals completely. It is possible for their multiplexed counterparts to interfere with each other (see dot crawl).
>>
>>1781527
Yes, the NTSC Wii consoles have RGB "disabled" and component enabled instead but a simple software switch will enable RGB instead. I've done it on my Wii console for my PVMs as one does not accept component.
>>
>>1781554
how did you do that? this is relevant to my interests.
>>
>>1781559
Use something that region switches the console. I switched it to European and plugged it in via SCART. It will look really flickery at first but all you need to do is go to the system options and change it to PAL60 and it will be fine. I don't remember what the app was called for it atm.
>>
http://tampa.craigslist.org/pnl/sys/4550014804.html
Found this on craigslist. Wondering if this is a good deal or worth it. For reference, it's a bout a 30 min. drive from where I am.
>>
>>1781386

I remember having one of those growing up. My parents got it in '99 or maybe 2000 I think? Anyway I remember it being pretty nice. Neat that it has component too (can't remember my dad ever using it on ours though).
>>
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Just got a PVM-14N6U for $45, did I do gud?

And now I wait for it to arrive...
>>
>>1780203
its on composite and playing off the ps2 alpha collection [retro collections are /vr/ right ? ]
i pick 60hz mode and its black and white.

so if i get a scart cable for my ps2 itll play 60hz?
>>
>>1781798
I wouldn't say so, my PAL TV has no problems having color with composite in 60Hz mode
>>
>>1781518
id say HP had a bad run with shitty names

>all hew hp dv01z0ip6s
>>
>>1779558
>Softmodded Wii for me.
Does the Wii have a DLNA client?
>>
On the topic of PS2, can anyone recommend me a good RGB SCART cable?
Apparently most of the ones on sale are chinese knockoffs that only carry component.

I've tried googling and all I can find is this one from a weird german site;
http://www.wolfsoft.de/shop/product_info.php/products_id/8658/
And while it's apparently better than even the original 1st party SCART cables, with international shipping it'll cost ~$90.
>>
>>1781964
WiiMC is excellent. It finds files over a SMB network and it plays files that my 360 and bluray player won't for some dumb reason.
>>
How many people just kept their old CRTs? I have the same one I had in 1997.
>>
>>1782041

The first CRT I had long ago stopped working one day...That was about 10 years ago...I spent countless hours playing all of my Sega consoles on that thing.

The CRT that I bought (brand new) 7 years ago sucked...Only had composite with mono sound, but I used that until I found a Trini at Goodwill a little under a year ago.
>>
>>1782041
Have one from 2002 since my old one from 1989 stopped working and I wasn't bothered enough to fix it back then. It already has run little bit under 28k hours (yes, I wrote it correctly) but the picture is still great.

>>1781994
You can try to search for PS3 RGB SCART, those ones are also compatible with PS2, but keep in mind that if you want to get a cheap one, even if it has RGB pins connected right, they don't usually have connected ground and +3V on pin 16. In that case just refer to this scheme and fix it by yourself - >>1780935
>>
>>1782070
>they don't usually have connected ground and +3V on pin 16.
how cheap can they get? the AVMULTI connector supplies 5v, they'd only need a single resistor to get a suitable voltage for pin16 (i know because i did this with my custom vga>scart cable, i simply hooked up a usb cable with a resistor to 16)
>>
Is VGA to component a good idea?

How hard is it to get a normal new-ish graphics card to output 480i/240p correctly?
>>
A quick explanation for those wanting to use 31kHz SoG from a PS2,
It only works in very few games. One piece of software it doesn't work for is your PS2's BIOS. No game automatically boots into the proper mode first time, this means that you either have to set your games into the proper mode blind or beforehand and hope it saves the setting.
Certain modchips allow you to force 31kHz SOG for all games, but it's buggy and shit.
TL;DR Don't.
>>
>>1781798
Depends on your TV. Most PAL TV accept 60hz over RGB but not composite.
>>
>>1781524
In addition to what >>1781530 said, the ground plane acts as a heat sink and makes soldering to it require a lot more heat and is difficult to make a proper solder connection to it. It's better to just find a solder joint that's connected to ground and use that instead.
>>
>>1782041
I still have a TV I bought in 1991 with birthday money and savings. I've discarded 3 older TVs that I miss having, as well as one slightly newer one that was ok.
>>
>>1782041

I would have if all my CRT TVs didn't died. On the other hand, I've I've kept all my old PC CRT monitor.
>>
>>1774596
My 16" Trinitron widescreen.
>>
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14" PVM i keep on the desk.
>>
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whats the word on the samsung GXE? I remember playing Berserker for Dreamcast on it at my local funcoland back in the day. I can find them on Ebay, would it be a good cheap alternative to a Sony PVM?
>>
>>1781495
RGB is better yeah
>>
>>1783187

I heard that they're better when it comes to composite, but I'm not sure.
>>
>>1783187
It's designed like a toy, it's a '90s Samsung (but I repeat myself), and its best input is composite. 3 strikes for me. Even when they were brand new I knew better.

Anyway I know they have nostalgic value for some.
>>
>>1783215
>it's a '90s Samsung

what was wrong with samsung in the 90s?
>>
Well I just dug out my old ViewSonic monitor (A70f+), and I have to say that even though it's not the best monitor out there and I can't get it scanning at lower resolutions, the differences in colors, black levels, refresh rate, and especially input lag are astounding. I'm tempted to go find the old beige Gateway 2000 monitor that I have laying around, which I believe is actually a rebadged Sony.
>>
>>1783231
it is the same korean shit as always
>>
This thread is awesome! So, I need some model advice. I'm currently on a journey to find a NTSC CRT monitor that directly supports RGB, and is equal or above 26 inches. Here's my current shopping list:

37 Inch
- NEC XM37 (Really want one of these)

32 Inch Widescreen
- BVM-D32E1WU (My holy grail, but fuck it's like 2 grand with 60k hours clocked on ebay)

32 Inch
- PVM-3230

29 Inch
NEC XM29
PVM-2950Q

Anyone know any other good ones I can add to the list?
>>
tried hooking one of these up to my computer and well, it's not working out well

first of all since it has a pretty weird output (DA-15), I put a converter on it that makes it vga, then put a converter on that which makes it DVI that connects to gpu (gtx 560ti). it detects the monitor but the screen on it gets really freaky, like its tighter in the middle and the screen scrolls up or down rapidly

I'm guessing it's because I converted to many times and should probably try to find a DA-15-to-DVI converter but just wanted to know if you guys have any ideas
>>
>>1783248
Oh, same guy. Old school gaming too (SNES / Genesis). Not looking for something "HD" for that. The BVMs are an exception, because while they can play PS2 really well, they still do old content like a champ.
>>
>>1783250
Its sync rates aren't set properly, or its looking for compo Ent and you're giving it rgb.

Its probably not the connectors except they let you do something that might not be possible.
>>
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>>1783187
It's a nice little TV, and holy shit does it get loud, but it's just isn't a good stand in for a PVM if you're looking for quality.

Don't know if there's something messed up inside of mine, but the speakers seem to be causing interference with the picture. The geometry has also gone to hell in the past year and half(since having got the PVM). This could be from having it sitting on top for so long. I should look into fixing that,

If you can find one for cheap, it's a neat little thing to have. Easy to move around as well.

Have an older picture of Super Metroid on it.
>>
>>1783231

Korean stuff was still shitty in the 90s.
>>
>>1783258
>compo Ent
s-sorry what does this mean?
>>
>>1783248
The Sony PVM20L2 or PVM20MU are also very good options. You can find those relatively cheap and the picture is amazing for both PS1, SNES, Genesis, N64, etc.
>>
>>1783283
Component. Rgb (vga) is different from component.

Dvi has a component mode, but consumer video cards don't output in that format
>>
>>1783248
Mitsubishi Megaview "XC3717C"
>>
>>1783248
Sony G90
>>
>>1783307
That's a projector.

A very sexy CRT projector, but a projector nonetheless.
>>
>>1783309
i wonder how retro games would look on it
>>
>>1783313
It'd probably be overkill for that. The G90 has good enough tubes to output FHD resolution, better off getting something slightly lower end and saving a buttload of cash.

G90s and cene9s are just for staking in massively expensive home theater setups.
>>
>>1783289
>The Sony PVM20L2 or PVM20MU are also very good options.
Too small. My room layout doesn't allow me to sit close enough to really enjoy it. I've seen the PVM20MU though... breathtaking.

>>1783304
>Mitsubishi Megaview "XC3717C"
Oh nice, fantastic one. I'll add to my list

>>1783307
>Sony G90
Sorry, not interested in a projector. Want a good ol' screen up front.
>>
>>1783315
can you recommend somewhat cheap CRT projector that can display 2048x1536 at 85Hz and also works with 15 kHz signal?
>>
>>1783324
>can you recommend somewhat cheap CRT projector that can display 2048x1536 at 85Hz and also works with 15 kHz signal?

It doesn't exist anon. "Somewhat cheap" isn't compatible with everything else you've stated.
>>
>>1783297
oh okay
any idea what I should do to get this working? I'm not to tech savvy I'm afraid....
>>
>>1783407
I like how anon never apologized for his typo. He just brushed it off and made it seem like a comprehension error on your part.

lel
>>
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>>1783414
meh I don't care, just want to get this thing working
>>
Has anyone here seen retro gaming on a BVM-D32E1WU? The bastards are super expensive, but I want to know if it might be worth it.
>>
>>1783414
I've never been on a board with grammar nazis like vr before. Other anons correct my posts, usually without comment
. They're just so ocd they need that corrected.

Even on old shit fest message boards with registered users and rivalries and shit.

And I was pretty surprised he couldn't correct missing a single letter.
>>
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Does this look good for composite?
>>
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>>1783425
>>1783250
just tried connecting vga conversion to mobo, no luck, in fact worse since now nothing at all showed up on the screen. gonna try again later though in case I just didn't plug it in correctly, my computer is placed in a way that connecting and disconnecting cables in the back is really inconvenient
>>
>>1783559
You just need to sync to something it understands. Mac monitors were mostly VGA compatible but like you noticed they used DA-15. I can guarantee you as a retro Mac user back in the day that it's not looking for component or digital RGB.

Just try different scanrates on your video adapters.
>>
>>1783648
where do I do this? nvidia control panel?
>>
>>1778481
>Is this normal? Growing up we only had shadow mask TVs and I can't recall ever seeing scanlines.

Hey anon, for what it's worth this late, some CRTs do minimize scanlines. I have a set that masks them so well that I thought I couldn't see them because of the connection somehow (it only takes composite), but the same signal into my PVM produces very pronounced scanlines.
They are just slightly visible on the other one if you look closely, but they may as well not be there. A set like that is probably advantageous to people who dislike scanlines and I actually thought it handled the composite signal remarkably well (pretty sharp, no dot crawl as I recall, slight color bleeding but not terrible), but if you're looking for those in particular you'll need a different TV.
>>
>>1783659
Yeah, try it there or in the advanced section of display properties ("list all modes" or something).

Powerstrip might also work depending on your hardware.
>>
>>1783684
not seeing anything about scanrates, is refresh rate the same thing? I tried changing it before from 85hz (default, had the problems I listed in my first post) to 60hz, but then it didn't show anything at all
>>
>>1783742
>is refresh rate the same thing?
Yep.

>but then it didn't show anything at all
Did you also switch resolution down to something common, like 640x480?
>>
>>1783771
the lowest it had was 800x600, I thought it was strange since the monitor's resolution is 640x480
>>
>>1783798
That is weird, you might be able to scroll around and find [email protected]
>>
>>1783810
Newer systems don't have the option to go as low as 640x480, however you can try that resolution if you find an old application/game and set it with checkbox in compatibility tab in properties.
>>
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>>1783810
>press customize button
>640x480 at 60hz
fffffuck
this is on my lcd monitor though but still I'm sure it'll be about the same on the crt otherwise I'll report back I guess

thanks for the help anon
>>
>>1783834
Cool, happy to help. Hope it works for you.
>>
So I bought a Sony Trinitron KV29X5E a few weeks ago, and when I plug in my PS2 I get this weird bending in the top right corner. This happens with both my PS2s, but doesn't seem to happen with any other console. It's connected with composite over SCART; I haven't tried another cable, but it worked fine with my PS3 with the same cable. I haven't messed with the settings a lot, mostly because I have no idea what anything does, but I'll continue doing that in the meantime.

Also, the picture in the image does not cover the whole screen, it leaves a few inches black on the top. I'll post another image that does cover the whole screen.
>>
>>1783981
This is all the way to the top. What I'd mostly like to know is if this is something I can fix, either through settings in the TV or in some other way, or if it's just some part of my equipment that's bad (TV was only like $8, so not really a big loss if it's shit).
>>
>>1783981
Try turning off automatic format under the AV menu. Just a complete hunch. It happens with all games, right? Not just P4?

Only way I could rule out it being a PS2 issue is if you plugged in a different PS2, but that seems quite unlikely.
>>
>>1784002
Yeah, it happens in all games. And as I mentioned in >>1783981,
>This happens with both my PS2s,
so it's kind of ruled out, unless I'm really unlucky or PS2s just really tends to have this problem.
>>
>>1783981
Persona 4's title screen is like that naturally. Watch the opening movie to completion and you'll see the black bar descend.
>>
>>1784009
Maybe I should have clarified, that's not a part of the problem, I just used that screenshot to show that it does the same this when the picture isn't all the way to the top, and also that it's more pronounced then.
>>
>>1783981
I actually get strange picture deformations on my PS2 also, anon. The upper right corner bends inward a bit and the bottom curves up slightly on my PVM. I tried more than one game, so I assume it's gotta be my PS2 because I also gave my N64 a shot and it doesn't have that problem.
Weirdly, they both send a perfectly fine signal into my cheap consumer set. Nothing like that happens.
>>
>>1784056
Oh also, the curving up at the bottom is in addition to not reaching the bottom completely, similar to how yours doesn't reach the top. And I was using composite as well! Maybe it's the composite signal on a trinny?
>>
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Ok, I have two CRTs, one is is 31khz with really obvious scanlines when running at 240p, the other one is 15kHz with barely visible scanlines (pic related). I prefer the look of the 15kHz one. I don't know much about the different kinds of CRTs out there so I wanna know, how come one of them has more obvious scanlines than the other? Sorry if it's a stupid question.
>>
>>1781495
On PS2 the component is better. But you're not going to be able to tell. So just use whichever is easier.
>>
>>1783307
How good are projectors for retro gaming?
>>
>>1782603
remember that vga outputs RGBHV (R,G,B,hsync,vsync), and getting component from that requires some kind of active converter

and you will need something that can output ~15khz hsync, from what i can tell, modern radeon cards are the best bet

i swapped my aging 250GTS to an HD7850 recently partly for this reason, i've had no trouble getting 240p/480i and any other mode my tv can handle from it with the foss radeon driver in linux
>>
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>>1784095
the pc monitor likely has a far smaller dot pitch between phosphors on the color mask, while the tv has a larger dot pitch

the larger pitch on the tv means you get more visible vertical gaps between pixels that are close to a primary color (that is, only use 1/3 of each pixel)
it also means it's more likely for colors to bleed into nearby scanlines

you can help make the scanlines more pronounced on the tv by keeping brightness down and adjusting the tubes' focus

pic related, my tv, you can clearly see the large dot pitch, where each scanline only passes through 1-2 pixels/phosphors
>>
>>1784551
Woah how are you playing Cave Story on a TV?
>>
>>1784560
custom made vga>scart cable

my tv is acting as a second monitor for my pc, so i can run anything i like on it
>>
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>>1784568
in addition to be able to play emulated games on a tv in their native res, i can also play pc games on it, too

is ut'99 retro enough for /vr/? i'm still new here

the photo makes it look like it's too dark, but the contrast is good enough on the tv, being a crt, that it's all quite visible in real life
>>
>>1784568
Are you using custom drivers to get 15kHz or what?
>>
>>1784640
i'm using the foss radeon driver in linux, there's no need to modify it, just add the modelines you want through xrandr or xorg.conf as usual
>>
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>>1776337
here

I just got most of my consoles working with RGB. I feel like showing this bad boy off. Anybody got any requests?
>>
>>1784701
>Those giant phosphors
I love it

Megaman X, Super Metroid?
>>
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anyone know of a similar tool to winmodelines for linux

it feels weird to use a windows tool in wine that happens to make xf86-compatible modelines in linux

at least i've got my genesis modeline almost the right geometry now
>>
>>1784095

Increase the color intensity of the monitor to make the scanlines bloom more

>>1776959
>>1776967
>>1776976
>>
>>1782919
That's actually a really cool CRT, what model is it?
>>
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alright same guy from yesterday, I did this >>1783834 and tried all the different scanrates for 640x480. It's definitely better than before but still not usable, the image is clearer but it keeps scrolling up like that, just not as rapidly. The "best" one (clearest image and least rapid scrolling) would be 75hz but 73hz 70hz and 60hz were also slight improvements.

Any ideas what to do now?
>>
Me again >>1783834 >>1785772
Don't know if this is any help in figuring out the refresh rate but found this about the monitor: 35 kHz Horiz. Scan, 66.7 Hz Vert. Scan
>>
I have a CRT which states it can take a PAL60 signal. However NTSC consoles don't play in colour. Is this because there is a different carrier frequency for the colour or is there nothing I can do to fix it?
>>
>>1786218

It's because PAL60 != NTSC. The color encoding isn't the same at all.
>>
>>1786220
Right because if I plug into the back with SCART it plays in colour with rolling image but If I plug in the front with composite it has perfect picture in black/white.
>>
>>1786231

If you plug the SCART it means that it uses RGB, so no color encoding. The fact that you have a rolling image is weird though. That means that it doesn't sync the refresh rate to the incoming video signal.
>>
>>1786218
PAL60 is just PAL at 60hz, it's not the same as NTSC

>>1786241
SCART doesn't automatically mean RGB, it can carry a composite video signal, too (including by itself)
>>
>>1786241
I'm gonna take some pictures. The thing is that I want to use the setup for streaming and since I live in Europe not all the TVs can display in 60hz.

Problem is that SCART doesn't work well with capture cards.

See here is with composite. Using a capture card, you actually capture the signal from the console and tv separately.
>>
>>1786272
So since the capture feed is separate you play on b/w on tv and it's in colour on computer.
>>
>>1786272
my guess is that it supports PAL60 but not NTSC, therefore it can hold onto the 60hz vsync rate, but doesn't understand the NTSC-specific color encoding
>>
>>1786274
and then I got SCART fixed...just needed to blow on contacts...Now gotta work out how i'm gonna get this onto my computer!
>>
>>1786278
mm, must be using the RGB pins, skips over the difference in color encoding between PAL/NTSC

is this from a super famicom? i don't know much about them, but it might output both composite and RGB at the same time
so you could connect composite to your computer, while RGB to the tv
>>
>>1786268

Yup, I know, I own a Nintendo 64 and it came with an RCA ? SCART adapter. It's just that he said that the same console display colors with scart, but not with composite.
>>
>>1786284
I have RGB cables! Let me check that quickly.
>>
>>1786292
rgb cables?

i can't say i've seen a capture card that takes rgb

in any case, composite video should be available on scarts' pin 20
>>
>>1786295
Yeah, that was wishful thinking. Yeah it's RGB but actually has pins as opposed to SCART. It wouldn't carry sound anyway, would need component cables.

I have a SCART to YUV converter, but I don't have component cables to test it with and I don't know if my capture cards will even accept the signal.
>>
>>1786315
in anycase, when i said "rgb to the tv", i was referring to scart, since it carries rgb
>>
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>>1786327
Well, the problem is that the way the capture device works is that there is obviously video then L-R audio. So I use splitters into those and for one set of 3 is from the console to capture and the other set of 3 goes from capture to tv.

Now I don't know how rgb to tv would even work...I mean the device reads colour on my computer but is there even a cable which is SCART but ends in RCA like pic related. I don't even know if it would work...because even though computer image is in colour would the cables carry the signal from the console into the device and then the tv in colour - if that makes sense?
>>
>>1786348
I mean scart to component could theoretically work I guess but would need to use splitters.
>>
>>1786348
when you use rgb with scart, the tv gets these:
R, G, B, composite sync (likely the same wire as composite video, the yellow one, only in this case used just for sync), audio left, audio right

if you can get access to the composite video, audio left and audio right pins, you could run those to the pc to capture composite video (+ audio)

if the tv has composite *out*, that might work, if it provides the composite video given to it via scart, you could also modify the scart connector to provide outputs for them, or if a scart splitter is a thing, you could use that, too
>>
>>1786371
Okay, I sort of get you. Is the cable previously linked in pic the sort of thing that would work if it carried a RGB signal? (thanks for the help by the way)
>>
>>1786394
or even something like component? i'm gonna draw a picture of this in a second.
>>
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>>1786402
excuse the shit drawing, but something like that?
>>
Hellooooooo.

I just got given a 'broken' CRT off my sister. I gave it a whirl today and its colours are all borked, like it needs a degaussing - only worse.

When I put it on AV you can see clearly, it goes blue/red/green/blue from the bottom of the screen to the top.

Before I throw it out, is there a magic way of fixing it you know about?
>>
>>1786451
Did you try to fix it in the service menu?
>>
>>1786451
degauss harder

tape a magnet to an electric drill
>>
>>1786451
Turn it on and off a bunch, unless its totally ancient ot has a built in degaussing coil. Or look up how to degauss and do it yourself.
>>
Does anyone of you have any experience with Terratec G3? It should support RGB SCART, that's the reason why I'm thinking about it
>>
Damn, camera pics really don't do crt screens justice. Everything looks like a cheap "crt" filter with bland colors and exaggerated scanlines.
>>
>>1786456

Hi, I finally found a working code to get to the service menu, but it's full of abbreviations with random numbers. What am I looking for exactly?
>>
What are some TVs that have curved picture tubes and also component inputs?
>>
>>1786765
Pretty much any one produced from 2005-and-onward.
>>
>>1786771

No but curved tubes as in curved/non-flat screens.
>>
>>1776835
I hope whoever has any doesn't just toss them out or let them end up in a thrift store junk bin. I can't handle the thought of non-technical plebs eying over it smudging the screen; or worse, for some little imp child fucking with it or mishandling it in a way that it falls to the ground and breaks. And I cringe at how often thrift store employees try to separate devices from their included accessories and cables for an extra sell. That's just wrong. So very very wrong.
>>
>>1786765
You may be able to find a late 90's Trinitron with component inputs, just before they switched over to the FD/WEGA design. Even that will be semi flat(barrel shaped) though.

Other than that, just look for 20in+ curved tubes and and check the back. I doubt anything smaller would have been deemed a high enough priority to warrant component inputs.
>>
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Does anyone know if this outputs RGB or composite? It claims to have the same RGB pins, but the cable would be composite. I am confused.
>>
>>1787272
It doesn't work like that. That scart adapter can only send composite and s-video signals. Even if it has al the pins.
>>
>>1787272
>>1787330
Also, if you want RGB through SCART. You should look for a specialized cable for the thing you want to connect it too.
>>
>>1781386

Yo, how are the scanlines on that? Someone near me has one as well, kind of want.
>>
>>1787602
I can vaguely see the scanlines in the pic the anon provided. And seeing how a normal viewing distance is as far or further away, I'd say to expect as much as the pic when thinking about buying one as shown in pic.
>>
>>1775558
I would have to go see a doctor if I had that set up since I would have an erection for longer than 4 hours.
Although if I'm being honest you could use some better speakers. Otherwise I'm jelly man.
>>
After weeks of pilgrimage I finally found and bought a PVM.

Thank you, /vr/, for everything you lot have done. You've shown me the light.
>>
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>>1786412
you're just trying to play the console while recording something, right?

do you care much about the recorded quality?

pic is what you need to do to get rgb to the tv and composite to the computer
note that all of those lines are what's provided via scart when you use rgb

check if the tv has composite or even scart out, and use something like >>1786348 to connect to the pc (assuming it's scart>composite, not composite>scart... scart is a two-way standard, with 'in' and 'out' configurations)
>>
>>1788451
Some consoles such as the PSX have Scart RGB cables with composite out built into the actual cable.
These were mostly meant for use with light guns but also work for recording.
>>
how do you choose a good CRT? I'm interested in sizing down from my 27" SDCRT, and I'd prefer that it support 480p (which mine doesn't, it only does 240p/480i).
>>
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>>1788027
What are the advantages of that specific CRT?
>>
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Anyone on /vr/ have any experience with the brand / tv?

I bought the set at a garage sale for 5 dollars and thought I would give it a shot. I have my systems hooked up with s video, (besides the Sega) with an after market universal cords. I really enjoy the picture I get for it, but wanted your opinion on the brand.
>>
>>1788559
I'd be willing to bet that it is a Sylvania in name only; manufactured by a 3rd party. Not that it's a bad thing. I could also be completely wrong.

Any pics of its glorious glowing phosphors in action?
>>
Okay, so, I want to run emulators from my laptop on my video monitor. Should I be using soft15khz to use a 15khz signal? I have an ATI Radeon X1200 video card, which I think is compatible...I'm just not sure if this is the way to go with this.
>>
What's the difference between

PVM 1442 QM
PVM 1444 QM
PVM 1454 QM
>>
>>1788784

>1442 QM

14" tube of a lower quality than the 2 others (typically, a consumer trinitron will have either 1 or 2 as forth digit, my sony TV is KV-14M1B for example).

>1444 QM

14" tube with high end tube, and the same model I own. Breddy gud tube.

>1454 QM

14" tube with a tube of the same quality as 1444 QM, but produced in the period after the 1444 QM.
>>
>>1788789
Many thanks! How did you find all this? So 1454 QM best choice then? How do you hook up all your consoles to it via RGB? With something like this?

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/Female-RGB-Euro-SCART-to-4-BNC-Audio-Cable-Sony-PVM-Sega-Genesis-SNES-Neo-Geo-/191250284800?pt=US_Video_Game_Cables_Adapters&hash=item2c8767c100&_uhb=1
>>
>>1788784
The different numbers determine how useful the unit is, and getting the wrong one will mean the monitor will bottleneck your elaborate setup with total irrelevance and while you ask why the monitor is not working well others will tell you how everything else in your setup is irrelevant and wrong to the glory of the relevance and correctness of the monitor you chose.

In seriousness, probably some minor technical differences.
>>
>>1788791

>How did you find all this?

Some other anon posted a few thread ago the way to decode model numbers.

>So 1454 QM best choice then?

Check if it has the least number of hours, and what kind of inputs it has.

>How do you hook up all your consoles to it via RGB?

If it has BNC plugs, then through BNC, if it has scart, then through SCART, and if it has this RGB db25 port, well it's through RGB db25. What you posted is only useful if the monitor have BNC inputs for RGB. Check some photos of the back of the various models and identify the RGB input port(s) first.
>>
>>1788802
>>1788806
So then can we get a link to the way to decode the model numbers?
>>
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>>1788806
So:
- check which has fewest hours
- check which inputs are available

>back of the 1454 QM

Sorry for shitty quality
>>
>>1788809

The other anon posted something like:
In PVM 14 4 4 QM, PVM is the line (PVM, BVM, KV, KX), 14 is the size (14" and others), the first 4 is the period (4, 5, M, etc...) and the second the quality of the tube, and the QM is a regional code if I recall.

>>1788810

Yeah, so it has RGB through BNC. Don't forget to ask for photos of the monitor working, it might be useful.
>>
>>1788812
Thx m8 will do
>>
Anyone know anything about this one? Found it on a craigslist type site in my city. Neither model number nor size is specified.
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>>1788856

Judging from the older red green and blue dot Trinitron logo and general aesthetic I would place it from the mid to late 80s. It looks a bit similar to my 25XBR, although that doesn't have the big side-mounted speakers.

Anyway, I would try to find out more about it. You could always get in touch with the seller about model number and inputs and stuff like that.
>>
Yo this is sort of off-topic but I've seen it discussed in the past so who cares.

I picked up a laserdisc player recently, no discs to test it with yet. Anyway it seems fine other than that the tray sometimes will immediately retract after opening (I've heard this is a common issue so it's not a big deal since it doesn't do it constantly).

Anyway I recently read that LD players can potentially mess up the discs while they're playing them, anyone know anything else about this? Would really hate to destroy any discs since they don't make them anymore.
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Mac display guy again >>1783250
I tried making customized resolutions with the nVidia control panel changing the refresh rate from everything between 70hz to 85hz but still no luck. the best one I found was either 76 or 77hz but then it still scrolls up. tried several between 60 and 70hz as well

This is getting pretty frustrating. Any help is appreciated
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>>1788874

I don't know why it would mess them up, it's an optical media, nothing touch the disc, as it uses a laser to read it.
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>>1788909
But keep in mind that lasers can have destructive properties as well; as when burning data on to optical media.

In any case, couldn't a LD disc be read by a player and its output stored digitally on a computer? Even though laser discs store analog data, you could convert analog data into digital data with minimal loss if using a high bitrate and large variable size for storing signal variance.

Curiously, how would storing video in analog mode work? How many possible ways of displaying a video signal are there? How would display resolution be affected?
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>>1788949
iirc LD's use a signal similar to composite for video, and digital PCM audio
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does anyone know of a way to get pcsx2 to leave overscan in?, it seems to be cropping some of the image, since elements are very close to the edges of the screen

this is fine on pc monitors, but not on an actual tv
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>>1788949

The laser isn't stronger over the time, it's weaker like all optical devices.

There are LDs used as digital data storage, I think it's WORM drives.

As for the way video is stored in a Laserdisc, it's a composite signal which sines are cut down (look at pic related, 6000 hours in MS Paint). For sound, it's either uncompressed PCM audio like >>1788952 says, or in the pre-digital audio ones, it's FM modulated analog sound that is stored just like the composite signal, which sound better than FM radio as there is no interference at all.
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>>1788874
>>1788909
>>1788949
>>1788952
>>1788965


Laser Discs are large, heavy, and fragile. Great care must be taken in storage to prevent warpage, jacket damage, and deterioration of the disc's aluminum coating. With even the best of care, a few poorly manufactured discs will loose their aluminum reflective qualities over time, resulting in increased video noise. This problem is aggravated by many publishers who refuse to take defective discs once they have "gone out of print".

http://www.starlaser.com/dvd-lasr.htm

Laser Rot is the appearance of video and audio artifacts during the playback of Laserdiscs, and their progressive worsening over time.[2] It is most commonly attributed to oxidation in the aluminum layers by poor quality adhesives used to bond the disc halves together.[2] Single-sided video discs did not appear to suffer from laser rot while double-sided discs did. The name Laser Rot is a misnomer; the disc degradation does not involve the player's laser.[2]

Laser rot was indicated by the appearance of multi-colored speckles appearing in the video output of a laserdisc during playback. The speckles increased in volume and frequency as the disc continued to degrade. Much of the early production run of MCA DiscoVision Discs had severe laser rot. Many DiscoVision titles have ceased to function since their pressings in the late 1970s. Also, in the 1990s, LaserDiscs manufactured by Sony's DADC plant in Terre Haute, Indiana were plagued by laser rot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot
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>>1788965
Oh, so the intensity of the sine wave is capped at a value between 0 and <= x value, while still otherwise carrying analog data? Is it because too intense a signal would blind someone?
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>>1788985

Nope, it's because it's easier for a laser to read it, and it only needs the length of a sine to interpret it.
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>>1788994
Sounds more like a digital storage format then with the only real analog data to be stored carried in the time it takes to change between 1 and 0.
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>>1789025

Nope it's not digital as it is a simple interpretation that doesn't need a DAC, just fully analog stuff.
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>>1788512
It displays RGB which is the purest picture you'll get.Also it will display it at either 240 or 480p and has great scanlines. It has other outputs but it's the best visual show for your eyes when you play /vr/. NEC xm29 looks very good and seems slightly better than the PVM but idk I've only seen videos of the two.
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>>1788559
I think I have that exact model, just under the Emerson brand. It should be a good tv.
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>>1788027
Having just joined the PVM club, it makes me happy to see others doing the same.

What size is that one?
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>>1789039
In that case >>1788965 should have longer wavelengths to demonstrate the curvature better under clamped conditions. Otherwise looks like analog-to-digital modulation
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>>1789070

Fuck, I didn't meant wavelength, I meant the period. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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>>1789075
Well I also meant period then. A period is how long it takes to complete a wave cycle. Period is the appropriate term to use when referring to a time-based measurement.

Wavelength is simply the distance covered by a period. I simply used it because of the inclusion of the term 'wave' which I feel semantically represents a wave better than its other related measurements.
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>>1789106
Also measuring a wave in whole is measuring the effects of its motion over a distance (wavelength) through time (period).
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So I've got a Sony KX-14CP1 and its all very nice and dandy, Fantastic picture. However when there's a mostly white image on screen, it goes strange. It doesn't seem to be able to display it and the picture can start rolling.
This has to be a really white image though, like looking straight down in first person at the floor in the temple of time in OOT.

Any ideas what could be causing this? Should I be concerned?
>>
>>1789106

Well, I still don't see why you say it looks like digital as it's just a physical representation of the cropped waves.
>>
>>1775851
I didn't know anything about that stuff. I just like CRTs a ton because I like light gun games. I can't play mother fucking Elemental Gearbolt on a LCD.
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>>1789135
There, a better diagram. What I was trying to say before was the old diagram had waves with curves where you couldn't make out whether the clamped wave was not curved or not because of the nature of the hand drawing, and making the lengths of the wave (thus the curvature) more pronounced would make it easier to tell even on something hand-drawn. :)
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>>1789150

Oh I see, well sorry if the waves I drawn were shitty, but I couldn't find >>1789135 quickly.
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>>1775851
So why did LCD become the standard outside of portable stuff? Is it cheaper?
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>>1789157
Cheaper, lighter, most people give zero fucks about a few ms of input lag on old vidya

Plus HDTV and all that
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>>1789157

Cheaper to produce, easier to ship, and smaller. The average consumer don't care about everything say here >>1775851 when the only thing you watch on a CRT TV is a blurry NTSC video full of interferences, while the LCDs has a digital tuner which gives a better image.
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>>1789157
Much cheaper to make, much cheaper to distribute and easier for the consumer.

Just think of the weight and size of a box containing a 32 inch widescreen crt and then think of how many boxed LCD's the same size could fit in that space and how much lighter they'd be.
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>>1789157
Flatter, lighter, uses direct photon manipulation from a lit back-plane rather than using a near-vacuum tube filled with hazardous gas that shoots electricity at a phosphor plane to emit photons.

Also I think the latest tech dealing with CRTs (if it'll gain traction) is a 'flat' screen tube with no magnetic guiding of electrons due to the back plane full of an array of electron guns. So essentially a digital CRT with a native resolution.
>>
>>1789157
lcd's are better at pretty much everything *but* image quality

lighter, thinner, cheaper to make, uses less power

there's a couple image-related advantages, though;
sharper image, no geometry issues
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>>1789172
>Also I think the latest tech dealing with CRTs (if it'll gain traction) is a 'flat' screen tube with no magnetic guiding of electrons due to the back plane full of an array of electron guns. So essentially a digital CRT with a native resolution.
is SED not dead? i thought it was dead

i hope it isn't though, it's like the best of everything
>>
>>1789172
>flat
Can you still use light guns on it? Because if you can't use light guns, I'd at least have another one standing buy specially for those.
>>
>>1789178
(not the same guy, but seems to be referring to SED)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display
>>
>>1789178
Hell, if we lived in a Star Trek era, we could probably have three RGB lasers in the back of a TV housing being guided to screen coordinates based on gravitational manipulation. A photonic version of a CRT.
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>>1789182
Or more simply if we could accurately manipulate light with dynamic refractors that change refraction values based on electric (or otherwise) pulses. That might be an easier path than gravity manipulation. But before that they'll enable the full replacement of electronic circuitry (logic gates) with photonic counterparts.
>>
>>1789181
>>1789182
Can you answer the question, though? Like, light guns games are why I'm interested in CRTS.
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>>1789190
CRTs don't use 'light guns'. They fire electrons with electron guns at a phsophor screen, which the screen itself is the emitter of the actual light.
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>>1789190
i'm not really certain how light guns work, and SED isn't out of prototyping, so i couldn't say
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>>1789193
he's referring to video game guns, like the guncon
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>>1789193
No, I didn't say the CRTs used light guns. I just know that light guns need CRTs to work and have problems with flat screen CRTs sometimes.
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>>1789196
Ah, then feel free to discuss.
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>>1789178

No I don't think you can use lightguns on them. Lightguns try to locate the electron beam, while SED monitors have hundreds of them.
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>>1789203
Okay, that's what I wanted to know. Like if I needed to have at least one other normal CRT for those types of games instead of just the SED, but yeah, looks like SEDs aren't commercial anyway, so that's not important, I guess.
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>>1789203
would it help if the screen was drawn pixel-for-pixel? it's understood that CED have really low response times, much less than lcd's
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>>1789203
Do you realize how do they even work? After you pull the trigger of a light gun the whole screen gets black and only a small square gets white, that's what the light gun is searching for, if it hits white it means that you hit something and console reacts. The problem with modern LCDs and why they don't work is the lag, screen can't show the square fast enough and therefore you will miss every time, not because of the nonexistant position of electron beam
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>>1789181
>Wikipedia: nanoscopic-scale electron emitters

>>1789203
>hundreds

Son, You'd better prepare to revise that figure when you look at the size of LCD pixels in your current LCD screen. Although lately they must be very small if they can manage 4K on mobile.
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>>1789218
not the same poster

and yea, hundreds would be a pretty tiny display

a 1080p image is over 2 megapickles, and sed uses an emitter per *subpixel*, so that's over 6 million emitters for a 1080p display
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>>1789210
>>1789218
Given how closely the electron guns can be next to each other in this case, I'd say (I'm not a physicist) that at nanoscale distances you might have electromagnetic interference (repellant) between electrons if all were fired at once. So it'd pretty much have to be one-at-a-time unless they were pretty separated out or you fired every other few electron guns in an interval pattern.

>>1789220
Yeah but I figured the wiki was something to make you think otherwise regardless..
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>>1789217

Congratulation you've just described 1 kind of lightguns. The other kind work like I described.

>>1789218

"Hundreds" just means many in my sentence, not actually a few hundreds. I think I should've said millions.
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>>1789228
>trillions
;)
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>>1789220
>6 million
Remember the six million emitters!
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>>1789238
Kek.
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>>1789238

Oy vey! You anti-cathodic bastid! Why do you keep the number down? It's 6 trinillion!
>>
>>1789229
>>1789247
In all seriousness though, considering that wafers with billions of transistors (smaller than any other electronic component) are measured in centimeters, and a CPU isn't 100% covered with transistors, and if any wealthy people can afford TVs measured in meters, then we're close to that trillion mark. I'm not so sure about getting phosphors that small though.
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>>1789257
>TVs measured in meters
I didn't know I wanted this until now
>>
this thread is getting progressively more future tech and retro tech
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>>1789132
As I suspect it's going to get buried in all of this discussion on future developments to the CRT I'm going to link back to my own post.
Got any ideas?
>>
Well yeah, I found a 72cm Grundig TV with a flat glass front on eBay Kleinanzeigen (the closest thing we've got to craigslist) for 5 Euro. Going to get it on sunday.

I still think it will look weird to have 2 TVs next to each other in the living room. But now I will be able to retrogame on the one TV while having my PC on the other one with a wireless keyboard and mouse thingy.

Is 72cm big enough? My flatscreen is 32"
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>>1789272
For a time analog computers beat digital computers in speed. Digital computers won out because we could do complex calculations on them like encrypting messages critical for war-time.

But still. There's that 'what-if' we maintained analog computers to their digital cousin counterparts.
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>>1789295
72cm is about 28''
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>>1789294

That's weird, does it do it when you're feeding him composite, RGB, or both? normally this kind of stuff happen when the monitor is out of sync.
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>>1789132
Elaborate on the 'rolling'.
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>>1789295
I would watch out if this is a modern Grundig, which is actually made by BEKO.
These suck very badly, at build quality (prone to get dry solder joints) and displaying retro games (forces interlacing).
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>>1789306
N64 is feeding through composite, I haven't got an RGB source available to test on it despite being in region PAL

>>1789314
Camera on mobile is shite but this gives a good idea. Any time things get too white this happens

http://webmup.com/jR89F/
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>>1789325
It is a Grundig Sydney Flat SE 7241 Dolby, thought it would be nice to have a fuckhuge 100Hz CRT.

First thing I've found on my shirts mobile phone internet was a catalogue where its in from 2002/3
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>>1789341
I've seen this happen to some TV's in the past. Maybe the current delivering a white color signal is just intense enough in heat to mess with some component solder joints inside? Have no real idea.

Maybe a specific color value (an intense white) causes it to go on the fritz. Have you considered the console as the source of the problem, if not the signal?
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>>1789341

Maybe you should discharge it and change the caps?
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>>1789421
What's a safe way of discharging quickly?
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>>1789423

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDAiLtTDuf4

Be sure to alway work with ONE hand and be isolated from everything.
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>>1789439

Also, do it multiple times, you're never too sure when it comes to CRT..
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>>1789423
A very safe way would be to use a resistor. Something between 56-220ohms might do the job.

>>1789374
I think i found the TV that you're going to get.
I actually repaired one of them, I resoldered so goddamn much and replaced some blown resistors.
"A piece of shit" is what i said loudly when i finished the repairs.
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>>1789068

It's a 14 inch monitor, PVM-1344qm. I'd say it's tiny, but... far from it.

>>1788512
Basically it has Component (480i), RGB, Composite, and S-video inputs and a high end cathode tube, so you could hook up a potato to it and you'd still get a very crisp image, pun not intended.
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>>1789949
> 14 inch with model 137 xvm
Up above an anon described how to decode the model number of the PVM. The first two digits apparantly signify the dimensions of the screen. So either your model number is actually 14xx or you actually have a 13 inch screen, and got jipped m8.
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>>1790026
Excuse the mobile phone correction, meant model 13xx
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>>1790026
It believe it is due to a difference between how screen size is measured between regions: Europe measuring viewable area and NA measuring total size.
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>>1788559
I have this TV also anon. I personally do not regret getting it. I do have some convergence issues in the right hand corners though, but it doesn't bother me.
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>>1790034

I don't think, my PVM 1444QM has a viewable area of 13", but it's still called 1444QM.
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>>1788483
Get a small computer monitor and convert your TV hookups to analog vga or dvi? There's always a right way and a wrong way to do conversion though.
>>
>>1776785
>>1776846
So could these CAD-minded CRTs display 64 bit color or anything as fancy? For $10,000 I'd expect to get a package deal.

Also, post more industrial CAD CRTs if you've got them.
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>>1790131

There is no color limitation on CRTs that aren't monochrome. So yes, 64-bit colors will work on a CRT (we didn't had to change our monitors when we came from 256 to 16 million colors).
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>>1789949
> QM model

>>1790034
I thought the last two digits were the country code, and from the other anon that posted his 14xx QM it seemed like it's a different measuring system, probably NTSC.
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>>1790153
Honestly, it was just a random guess.
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>>1790153

QM is definitely a European model. Also it's not limited to PAL, NTSC or anything as it accepts them all.
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>>1790150
That's comforting. Is there an audacity for 128 bit colors and beyond?

Also, I'm curious. What light waves does a phosphor emit? Is it just the primary colors or does it have a more natural effect from particle interaction? As in, would we also see ultra violet or infrared emitted from CRTs?
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>>1790162
>As in, would we also see ultra violet or infrared emitted
Well, they use leaded glass in order to block/cut down x-ray emission, so I suppose ultra violet wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
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>>1790162
Nevermind. Found the answer to my question after thinking about it more. What good does truly analog expression of a limited color gamut do if you only get a variance of like 10 different wavelengths (in an extreme case)? By the same token, if you had a projection screen that could show you the full spectrum (which even the Sun can't do), and only had 1 bit to express color with, that'd be just as disappointing as the other case. Obviously there's middle ground. I'm generally assuming though that the CAD-minded monitors have engineers optimizing for better color and high pixel pitch and other things.
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You guys got me to find a SNES in my mess and plug in my glorious CRT.
PVM 2150 master race.

I also have a smaller one in my bedroom, but it currently only serves me as a bedside table.
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>>1790243
>Pitch black with a high quality CRT with good phosphors.

Who needs the Sun?
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>>1790243
>dem glowing buttons
It's like you're voyaging through space with nothing but glorious vidya to keep you company..and perhaps your robot friends.
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>>1790268
The glow from the receiver on top is a nice touch as well.
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>>1776318
Americans don't have SCART?
hm.
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>>1790568
SCART was only "necessary" because there wasn't a single TV standard in Europe. PAL/SECAM, AM/FM audio, audio subcarrier frequency, channel frequencies, etc. The only constant was the 15.75KHz/50Hz scan rate, so they had to do "raw" RGB video and separate audio. In the US you had not only a single standard field rate but also a single color encoding, single color/audio subcarrier frequency, and single set of channel frequencies. "Channel 3" would work, with sound and color, anywhere in the US (and most of the rest of North America as well).
>>
>>1788961
You might have to adjust the actual overscan on your tv. If it's an LCD/Plasma, check the settings in the menu. If it's a CRT you'll need to get into the service mode which you'll have to google for your specific brand/model.
>>1789157
Because they got really big in panel size and people wanted big arse screens. Also people are suckers for form over function because they're easily manipulated by marketing.
>>
>>1790243
How is your PVM so bright? Do you have the brightness cranked to max? My BVM looks like that bright if I take off the 75ohm resistors...

Also, is that a Marantz or Sansui reciever? Mah Nigga!!!
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>>1790918
>You might have to adjust the actual overscan on your tv.
it's a CRT TV

i've done what i can to center and minimize overscan by tweaking my modelines, but emulators that cut off the borders make it difficult, since it places some elements right on the edge of the visible area, which would otherwise have a bit more room

i've had no luck yet finding info on this tv (TEAC EU-48), and i don't have the original remote (only a universal one), plus i have found nothing on the mainboard/neckboard that could help with geometry
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>>1791102
It's not that bright actually, it's due to the photo. It's almost at minimal level.

The receiver is a Pathé-Marconi, a cheap knock-off that I got for 30€. Sound is meh (lots of cracks at low level), but it looks hella good.
Here is a daylight picture.
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>>1791191
>shit stacked on top of Vectrex
>>
Hey /vr/, been thinking about getting another smaller CRT for my desk to play my Famicom and my NES on. I already have a Trinitron kv-27fs13 for SNES, N64, Genesis, Saturn, PS1, Saturn, Dreamcast, all that, but it's easy to run out of space around that thing. I think older systems look better on the smaller CRTs anyway.

Should I just look into finding a smaller Trinitron, or would there be a better solution? I have this free TV I came across recently (see picture) and it isn't bad, but it's just kinda wonky. For some reason, the Famicom only works on channel 95, haha.
>>
>>1791358
>Should I just look into finding a smaller Trinitron, or would there be a better solution? I have this free TV
Free is free, but what you do is entirely up to your specific needs and wants, and that's really something only you can decide. I will say that a bit of variety is nice, and seeing a shadowmask every once in a while is nice.

>but it's just kinda wonky. For some reason, the Famicom only works on channel 95, haha.
That's because channel 95 is just about the same frequency as channel 1 in Japan, and what the Famicom would feeding towards.