Fish, waifus, ban smogon, genbu, high BST curse etc etc.
Last thread: >>24943601
Game download pre-patched and ready to go in english (No expansion, won't be translated for 3-8 months):
Expansion downloads (Not translated, japanese only): http://pastebin.com/99HRr1Vt
The game requires japanese language packs and your computer to be in japanese locale or emulated via Locale Emulator provided in the download. If you don't do this, numbers will be bugged or the game won't run at all:
Puppetdex with a bit more utility than the wiki, have to download it and use a spreadsheet viewer:
FAQ, useful links and additional resources: http://pastebin.com/NyBVqHVy
Like i was saying to >>24953256
Tojiko is actually making an adorable gift for us.
Well, I now know how Extra Sanae's second ability works. Triple speed and 1.3x damage at low HP. That sounds crazy. You know what's crazier than that? The boost is always active, even if you switch out. Also, you have to be at 1 HP. Not 7 HP, not 10 HP, 1 HP exactly. It's really strict.
Thanks the the boats, we will never see the ending where we are back in the present where tojiko is all happy, futo doesn't remember a shit and became silly, miko doesn't remember a shit and became a girl, then Seija appears and says to Tojiko "hey! remember that girl you killed in a fit of rage?"
Seiga, i mean seiga, someone get the contrarian bitch out of my head.
That's a pretty cool ability. If you get rid of priority and status (which isn't very common anyway) you've likely got yourself a sweep.
Also posting in the new thread. New wind move. 95BP, 10% flinch (thanks for the latter info anon)
So far, I feel like her biggest problem is Illusion types. She can Endure/Reversal, but Illusion types crap on both STAB moves. Still, she could be a nice revenge killer even without that. Not like you'll always have a priority user on the field, and she's bulky enough to the point where she isn't forced to Endure at first sight. Gotta watch for Dark moves though.
It kinda is. It's a pain to the point that I don't even know how to EV her. Max attack is obvious, but do you even need to put many EVs into speed when you're getting a 3x speed boost? Her special attack is kinda worthless so putting points in that seems stupid.
Reminder that last thread showed us proof just how insane low BST things can get in this game
Why the fuck haven't we banned these
80 base running at x3 is sure as hell enough to outspeed anything that isn't buffed, but investing into it could act as a handy counter to setup sweepers that have managed to stack up their own speed with some buffs.
I don't think it'd be a good idea to intentionally gimp her defenses though, 90/95/65 is hardly something to scoff at, she can easily take a hit from anything that doesn't hit SE and then pop the endure after that.
I think it'd be pretty justified to do her EVs on focus attack and spread defense and still S out all her IVs. The spread defense will drastically widen her ability to take a hit before resorting to danger mode and that extra turn can be a big deal.
Just do 0/64/0/64/0/0 and have a move slot for HP to deal with physical walls.
>do you even need to put many EVs into speed when you're getting a 3x speed boost?
I've not played competitive in ages, but I would say yes. You don't want to be entirely reliant on her ability. Best treat it as a kick-ass backup strat more than your entire game.
This may help: http://pastebin.com/6sMtxB8G
To illustrate how important investment is: base 40 full investment beats base 80 no investment.
I'm not planning on gimping her defenses, but if she's left at 2 HP, she's kinda screwed. One of her moves will be Endure, so chances are she's gonna be predictable. Still, I can see some sort of mind games played with her.
You don't want to rely entirely on it, but her defenses and typing are respectable outside of the massive Dark weakness. She's going to be taking hits before getting her huge speed boost anyways, so she might not need many.
actually, looking at >>24953491 anon's case I kinda like his idea more. It's essentially two-mode Sanae: FoDef wall -> 300+ speed sweeper.
A compromise might be the best bet. Put in enough speed to outspeed key threats/ensure boosted opponents can't outspeed you. And then pump defense with the rest.
>I don't think it'd be a good idea to intentionally gimp her defenses though, 90/95/65 is hardly something to scoff at, she can easily take a hit from anything that doesn't hit SE and then pop the endure after that.
The problem with that is that plenty of things are going to be outspeeding her before she gets the speed buff. It's dangerous to rely on endure if you're not even sure if she'll have enough time to pull it off.
Absolutely, which is why I think it's crucial to get that extra defense to let her survive a turn or two and get that almost-guaranteed damage in while the endure into danger mode is the backup plan to try and squeeze out as much as you can before something comes in to put her down for good.
That's her thing. Low HP is the murder zone for her, do or die. And the good thing is that you can switch out since she doesn't lose the boost like an Unburden user would. You either live long enough to remove priority and sweep the world or you die trying.
>Orange will always be shit despite the power = low cost rule
Extra Sanae's level 70 moves aren't very helpful from what I can see. The only two notable things are the fact that she gets her own priority and this move I've never seen.
So 520 is the perfect BST then?
Good, just like everything else about her.
Wow, that's sure a quick way to neuter a focus attacker real good.
SanaeE isn't the ideal candidate to have that but I can sure see that being a potent skill.
I admire the dedication to make everything about Raiko, you're doing her proud.
It's the sweetspot of good abilities and well distributed stats. It's got stuff like Aya, Sakuya, Sanae, Seiga and more. Low BST stuff can be really good, but also suffer from being gimmicky at times. High BST stuff have had their problems talked about enough.
Sanae could run it if she wanted to. She's not limited to Final Sweep mode, she has an ability that reduces light and dark damage. I mean, it's not as cool, but it's an option. I get what you mean though, Sanae suffers from serious 4MSS. Endure and Reversal are mandatory on an Utmost Limit build, leaving you with two moves. You have two priority moves in Sneaking and Over Ray if you hate priority users that much, and Sneaking seems really nice since she's walled by Illusion types otherwise, although it's risky. You might want Light STAB, but maybe not since it's a bad attacking type. She gets water Earthquake, Grand Liberate and Dark Arrow for coverage.
One thing I've noticed is that "sure-fire things" are nowhere near as surefire here; the type resist charms working even on neutral or resisted hits means that an expected OHKO or 2HKO may actually not be the case, and things can easily get enough bulk to survive ridiculous things.
Also in crazy-theory-crafting-land, RaikoP with a Straw Doll can survive a Water Spout from Primal Kyogre and OHKO back with Emperor's Indignity (assuming full HP investment and SpA investment on both ends with boosting nature). Which I guess makes sense, she can handle Waggyswaggy after all with HP Poison.
From what I hear, yes. Speaking of outfits, I want to try to make Meiling work since her alt is so good.
Yes, you lose out to AyaP, FutoS, PElly after set-up, and FutoE amongst other things, which is bad when you have a giant glowing 4x weak to wind and are pretty fragile to begin with. FutoE is particularly bad since she's immune to fighting, resists poison, and you don't resist nether.
Higher speeds are much more common in this game than in Pokemon, which is another issue high BSTs have; they tend to get stuck with middling speed stats that aren't high enough to outspeed lots of things even fully invested, let alone if you ignore speed investment. Base 100 is the bare minimum for it to really be worth pushing speed full-bore, and even then there are puppets who would rather not invest in it and just take advantage of being able to outspeed things that do invest in speed while using the EV points to shore up HP or defenses instead.
Even in game I'm kinda bummed out by her. I've been struggling with this last fight since I kinda forgot to stock up on healing items, and she doesn't do anything but die. Stuff like Rin, Sariel, the stupid clown, it's frustrating. Her defense is okay, it's only her spread defense that's really bad.
I'm actually seeing a lot of potential in SanaeE so far. She's got two completely different sets, but both are nice. You could go bulky and just hit things normally while only having a 2x weakness, or go for a set that includes a lot of risky plays. If hazards show up, one of those Metallurgy Smash Spinners could pair really nicely with her.
Those people are idiots who would rather stare at cute fanart than play the game.
Real men, the ones used to Smogon-style play, know the only puppets worth using are the good ones.
I'd say the game's competitive nature just resides in using your favorites to beat other people's favorites. Since absolutely everything is viable in some way, and the game has counters to almost everything it can throw at you more or less. There seems to be a rather formidable gathering in the Japanese community, though beyond that I have no clue.
So is it worth playing the expansion before we have a translation?
I've already cleared the original.
Doubles would be a different meta entirely. If it replaced singles for some reason, just expect that nearly every puppet has the equivalent of Protect on their moveset. Weather would be more powerful by virtue of having two puppets on the field and games would be faster and slightly more read based because of protect shenanigans. More puppets would be "viable", although I don't think there's many that are unviable to begin with.
Version 1.01 of the base Touhou Puppet Dance Performance patch is up! Go get it here
Picture related, it's the entire bug-fix list for 1.00->1.01.
It also uses a new patching system (because again, fuck beat.), and this system will be what we use for the Yume no Kakera translation when we release it. Enjoy folks!
Worth a try, but I don't know. Elyk made the patch while I was asleep and told me to post it, then was asleep before I woke up from my nap. I tested it on a Japanese 1.34 to make sure it worked, and it did. If you wanna enter a brave new frontier, I'd recommend backing it up (I always recommend doing that anyways).
One thing I will say in regards to the patch, it assumes you havent moved the game from the default install directory. If you get issues installing the patch, manually input the directory the folder is into the installer's prompt.
Well, RIP my dreams. I don't know what it is, Sanae is immune to something she shouldn't be. It's not a fluke, it happened three times in a row.
>Yukari Extra gets Wisdom Eye
I might end up running her just for that.
I don't hate smogon at all, just don't try to force your smogon into my puppets.
Pretty much. It's a balanced enough game that we don't need bans or the like. And the meta isn't very large in the west anyway, so there's no real reason to set up a ruleset like smogon has.
More or less, yeah. The game is really intricately balanced out so that everything is viable, and that everything has a really good counter of sorts. If something seems overpowered, there's likely something that exists to shut it down. There are some skills which might be a bit extreme, but there's never really been an absolute need to go and ban things from netplay. There are a few things which are banned by the game by default, such as species clause and the Soul Dew-like item, but beyond that there isn't much else.
I think you'll want at least ONE more point of Speed.
Base 80 with no investment hits 100 Speed, which means with the boost you'll be at 300 Speed, and possibly speed tying Good Belt AyaP (10% run her with Good Belt, believe it or not).
Just two PPs in Speed to put you at 101 ensures that won't happen.
Yes. These guys aren't great, but from what it looks like so far, the strongest things all exist around the same power level, although there's obviously weaker stuff. They can get pretty weak too.
GF introduced Mega Rayquaza, I don't think we even need to talk about how bad they are at balancing. You could probably balance better than GF blindfolded and with less game dev experience than a toddler.
I guess one way to put it would be "more smooth"
There's still a few things that are laughably terrible (the equivalents to Regigigas and Slaking, although the former does have a HUGE payoff in the expansion if you actually stall out the 5 turns), and a few things that are pretty nuts (although nowhere near on par with Uber stuff in Pokemon still), but generally the difference between a weak puppet and a strong one is so much less drastic than the difference between a bad Pokemon and a good Pokemon.
Like one area people feel like the balance is off is that the high BST stuff is too WEAK compared to the lower BST stuff. Like BST 580-600 puppets (the absolute top-end) tend to suffer in basically every single regard, while the lower BST puppets can be so minmaxed that it gets kind of ridiculous.
See >>24953474? That's theorycrafting showing how a BST 370 puppet (with an ability that's Pure Power but for ATK AND DEF to be fair) could tear apart the BST 770 puppet, while a BST 480 puppet could set up on and then commence to brutally murder Primal Kyogre. The catch is that both of them have huge blatant weaknesses t (the former dies to special attacks so easily it's incredible, and the latter has a 4x weakness to poison that will wipe her out with remarkable ease and HAS to put up the game's equivalent to Trick Room to become truly terrifying)
Fun fact: that reply included in the first post discussing Primal Groudon and SukunaD? That was the only real reply to it; people cared less about the fact that SukunaD was hilariously overpowered and more about the fact that Sukuna was adorable.
Honestly, Mega Rayquaza isn't even that good of an example; regular Rayquaza was already designed to be blatantly overpowered like the other version mascot legendaries, Mega Rayquaza being even more hilariously overpowered than everything else isn't really that crazy.
Mega Salamence would be a better example.
*BST 770 Primal Groudon
This is what I get for staying up too late.
I feel like part of the balance comes from how ridiculous some of these things are. You have priority Topsy Turvy. You have something that's an Unburden boost on top of a Life Orb boost that you can keep through switching. Moody is on stuff with crazy stats. Yet it works partially because a decent number of things are kinda broken. I believe a decent number of these things would be easy Ubers in Pokemon, but aren't here due to different factors.
How much defense does the first puppet have if a 506 ATK Precipice Blades from Primal Groudon can't 1-shot it on a weakness, and what does a Golden Hairpin do? How much bulk and firepower does the BST 480 puppet have to be able to take Primal Kyogre's Thunders and return in kind with what I assume is a BP 75 (with what I hope to god is a STAB boost) move? And what do they look like in-game?
>priority Topsy Turvy
>Unburden + Life Orb that isn't eliminated through switches
>priority Topsy Turvy
Phase Inversion, gets good distribution too.
>Unburden + Life Orb that isn't eliminated through switches
Sanae Extra that we were discussing earlier in the thread gets a new ability like that. Oh, and she gets Endure. And there's a Weakness Policy equivalent item in the game.
Several good users, but Taunt is a TM and Phase Inversion, like I mentioned, has good distribution.
Honestly Moody is too unreliable and risky in this game. SuwakoS may be BST580 and have the ability, but she misses out on all the stall moves in exchange and so is too RNG to really be able to take advantage of it. Hell, only 20% of KomachiP run Moody, and she actually HAS the movepool to stall.
That's what I'm saying. A lot of these things would sound crazy in Pokemon, but they just work here. One reason might just be because the type chart isn't as extreme, but that's the only other thing I can think of.
Defense Sukuna is the puppet that can tank Groudon. She's a Steel/Earth (basically this game's version of ground, with some elements of rock thrown in) with base 50 defense, and an ability that doubles her "physical" (this game's version of physical attacks are called focus attacks) defense and "physical attack. Golden Hairpin is basically a physical version of Assault Vest. Gif related is what she typically looks like in game, but keep in mind that her Defense version appears tiny in game.
To answer your questions:
1. SukunaD's defense when fully invested is on par with a fully invested base 150 Pokemon thanks to Miracle Mallet's doubling it. She only has base 75 HP but her defense is so high that she can dodge the OHKO by the skin of her teeth even without investing in it.
2. The Golden Hairpin is basically equivalent to Pokemon's Assault Vest, except instead of giving a 50% boost to SpDef, it gives the 50% boost to Def instead.
3. WakasagiE's stat spread is 120/40/70/145/70/35. Your assumption on Energy Absorb being a BP 75 move (with STAB) is correct by the way. Kyogre is basically using a non-STAB BP 110 move while she's using a STAB BP 75 move hitting a weakness. Note that WakasagiE learns the game's equivalent to Trick Room and gets an ability that makes her water type moves 50% stronger while it's up.
4. I don't have the sprites on hand, but it is worth noting that SukunaD is significantly smaller than all the other puppets in the game.
Oh yeah that's a pretty big thing too.
Basically the type chart is like this in terms of logic:
No type gets fewer than 2 resistances or more than 5 resistances. No type gets more than one immunity and if it does get an immunity it only gets 3 resistances tops. Furthermore, no type has more than 3 weaknesses.
Offensively, no type is resisted by more than four types or has more than one type immune to it (although there are types that offensively have 3 resists and an immunity to worry about, like electric or fighting).
The big one: No type is resisted by fewer than two types period (so that the game doesn't orient around a single extremely strong attacking type like Gen 5's Dragon type). There used to be one exception to this (Nether being resisted only by Light), but the expansion changed it so that Nether was also resisted by Sound.
Anyone have the expansion type chart on them?
And Wakasagihime Extra is the puppet that can take Kyogre. She has 120/70/70 bulk, a Water/Nature (basically grass) typing, 145 base Sp. Attack, and if that wasn't enough she has an ability that doubles her Sp. Attack while Trick Room is up. Her draining move is called Energy Absorb, and yeah it's a STAB boosted attack with 75 BP. Pic related, it's her.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Still, it's a pretty powerful ability.
The expansion chart can be found in the pastebin in the op.
I wish Light was a slightly better offensive type. The expansion helped a little bit, but still.
Wait I'm just kidding the expansion didn't help one bit. I keep thinking that Warp is weak to Light for some reason.
Why did they have to give Marisa practically no bulk along with a type that's only really good for defense? I mean Speed at least gets electric to counteract this some, but still.
I think the reason Moody sees so little play is because of how fast paced the meta is. Moody only works well if you have time to build up some good stats, in a meta where stall typically sucks.
That, and there are several ways to fuck over Moody, like Phase Inversion and Wisdom Eye.
Run things with good bulk.
>run stall teams
Now see, there's a funny thing about that.
There's a terrain effect (Seiryuu) that while it's up makes all healing turn into damage. No one runs it unless they want an autowin on Stall, but it is a thing.
There's a status condition (Weakness) that stops healing when it's on a puppet. The game's equivalent to Scald inflicts it rather than Burn.
The equivalent to Rapid Spin is a skill card (i.e. TM). It's also BP 50, a special attack, and wind type, if those matter to you
The equivalent to Taunt is a skill card that is learned by almost literally everybody (Upbeat).
Stall just doesn't work. You want to try and win by using entry hazards and all the walls to grind your opponent's team into the dust, you're going to lose.
Bulky offense is perfectly viable however: It turns out the best way to keep damage to your puppets down is to beat the other side's puppets into submission first.
Light is pretty damn good to have on a fast offensive puppet. You get +5 resists and effectively automatically counter weaknesses so long as they don't have Dark Clothing or higher speed.
Uh, Dark Clothing actually is like Dry Skin from Pokemon.
It makes it WEAKER to Light (25% more damage).
WakasagihimeE + other genbu monsters
For fun I've got all of the puppets who learn quiver dance/fairly dance here
Extra Koishi (bulky focused attacker) learning it is super useless.
Now everyone who learns imposing air (dragon dance)
And lastly, Sharp air (+ Sp.Att, + Speed)
KogasaA has proven herself to be a true threat. New meta now, but she actually received a +10 Sp.Att buff so I don't see her going anywhere.
RinE looks interesting. 85/55/50/105/110/105 spread with fairy dance.
I recently discovered this game, and I live it to death. I played through it over the course of a couple weeks, and I had a blast with it, but now I'm thinking of trying to make a competitive team, and I have no idea where to start. Which toohoos are some of the better ones? I went through the first time with a team of some of my favorites, and while some of then worked out great, some of then weren't so good. Do you guys have any tips for good team-building? What are some important things to have available/plan for? I'm somewhat familiar with nature's and IVs and such, and I've played enough competitive Pokemon to know how that stuff works (and that this stuff is very different).
You can check out usage statistics here: http://www.gensou-suwako.com/correct/data_first/URViewer/URrank.php
For teambuilding you might want to check out the excel puppetdex (it comes with a team-builder)
What are your other favorites? If you want them appraised people here are generally familiar with the current meta. Mind you, all of this is going to be thrown out the window when the expansion is translated.
Also good taste. Koishi has one of the best sprites in the game
Oh hey, someone used one of my shitty GIFs as an OP image. That's mildly amusing.
And this Raiko doesn't even hate my guts anymore! Things are on the up and up.
Yeah I'm just an english pleb that's waiting on the translation but I still want to show off the neat new YnK stuff so I've been stealing other peoples' pictures for the OPs.
Figured that's better than spamming the same base-game pictures everyone's already seen themselves or bringing in even more shitposting by using 2hu fanart.
ALRIGHT BOYS. We now have usage statistics for the first week. Of course, these will likely change drastically, but at the very least we can see what others have deemed immediately and obviously useful.
1. HecatiaE (keikaku etc)
Haha. Did I say this list would be representative of what people have deemed immediately and obviously useful? Nevermind, it's clearly mostly just people screwing around with new forms/puppets with a few tryhard faggots running AyaP in the background.
New meta confirmed: Use nothing but newhus, extra styles and AyaP. Get to work.
No love for FishE though, that's surprising. Seems they aren't as hype about it as we are. HecatiaE sure is universal though.
Loadsa defensive puppets up there which seems to show that they're trying out a slower meta, but that could also be because a fuckload of new stuff happened to be defensive and they just want to do it because it's new.
Whoa, my favourite is finally in the spotligt.
Proof that Fire/Poison with Levitate is a fantastic combination (and with 30 speed, possibly indication that Genbu is as good as we think). Mega Weezing when, Gamefreak?
I told you, Sagumeanon. I told you she was good.
People predicting these would be frightening were right.
Now these are surprising. I thought Sukuna would maintain her presence better, and I never dreamed Remilia would be somewhat high thanks to all the other good Wind-types, and the fact Dark-type is pretty bad offensively.
You shouldn't be looking that far into this right now, it really doesn't show off anything other than what people are most interested in trying out, not what's actually good or not.
This is also primetime for there to be a ton of people who couldn't care less about effectiveness and are simply bringing in their waifus just to have some fun.
Oh, hey, thanks. This is pretty helpful.
As for my other favorites, I'm quite partial to Marisa, Mokou, Youmu, and Tenshi. Mokou was on my team for my playthrough, bu I found her to be a little unreliable at times, and overall not quick enough to be an effective sweeper, but not durable enough to tank.
Yuyuko also ended up on my team, and she was awesome. Easily one of my most reliable, and she could damage race a lot of other toohoos, even with no SpAtk investment.
My starter the first time was Miko, and she was okay, but by the end she just didn't perform how I wanted her to. CirnoP was a surprisingly great toohoo, and I wound up keeping her around a lot longer than I expected to. I tried out Remilia, and while she was fine in the damage department, I'm not sure how she stacks up compered to some of the others.
Honestly, there are a lot of toohoos I want to try out, but I'm still trying to even wrap my head around the new type chart.
You're good now Kokoro! Isn't that great.
Now I am TRULY, TRULY the NPC.
Source? I want to see how Raiko is holding up (obviously not well if everyone is too busy running new stuff rather than older things)
NM, found her at 78 in her P incarnation; still, having a spot on the list at all means she's at least holding up!
How much does it matter anyways? I mean, there's a decent number of puppets in the game. I imagine stuff lower on the list would be around the same level as some of the stuff off of it.
SDM, which isn't too far into the game.
Actually it's SakuyaP.
Not at all; she's going to be used by me anyways, and both of her original stances got some significant buffs; the question is whether or not the 3v3 meta is receptive to them at all.
Approximate level range?
SakuyaP, SakuyaE, whatever. I just like seeing Sakuya get love.
The random matchmaking is 3v3 only so that's definitely gonna be the go-to thing to build around, but the base-game-style specific IP matches can still do all the usual rulesets.
'Cause 3v3 is really popular over there, and works better for randbats since matches are so fast. The game is also clearly balanced for 3v3 and not 6v6, what with Moody and Power Gyokuto existing. Thankfully, Focas-Lens also added an option to arrange matches through their server, so you don't have to mess with port forwarding or Hamachi anymore even if you'd still rather just play 6v6. You'll just have to ask around for someone to fight you manually.
Actually, it's 6v3 for random battles online (i.e. you bring full teams of 6 and then each player picks 3 to actually do battle and leaves the other three on the side as cheerleaders)
So you have the prediction inherent in 6v6 games (since you don't know which 3 were picked and have to plan around the full 6 until the full 3 are known) while keeping the speed of 3v3 games.
KokoroE's untranslated ability might have something to do with that: it removes the drawbacks of Outrage style moves completely in exchange for reducing their strength by 10%.
>you don't have to mess with port forwarding or Hamachi anymore even if you'd still rather just play 6v6. You'll just have to ask around for someone to fight you manually.
That sounds pretty neat. I'm still gonna wait for a translation though, I hate not knowing what most of this crap does.
Stall being dead isn't a problem, it's an upside
If you aren't seeing any of your favorites' attack animations, you are playing the game wrong.
Extra Nazrin has Stealth Trap and Mold Breaker. And Decresendo.
WELCOME TO ENTRY HAZARD SETTING GENERAL.
Not to interrupt this exciting stall argument, but does anyone have any suggestions for a solid competitive team, specifically one which includes Koishi and possibly also Kokoro? They're my favorites, and I want to use them.
God damn I suck at this game, not knowing the types and the strengths and weaknesses sucks.
"Use your favorites" is generally almost always viable, assuming you build them correctly.
There are a vast wealth of bad styles that can be made even worse by not setting them up properly but there are very very few puppets that don't have access to at least a single worthwhile build if you know what you're doing.
About the only caveat is if you end up having 4+ puppets all being the same type, but that's pretty hard to accomplish unintentionally.
>About the only caveat is if you end up having 4+ puppets all being the same type, but that's pretty hard to accomplish unintentionally
I seem to do that a lot actually. Either they're weak to wind, or weak to steel. Sometimes fire as well.
Those are all the mostly-objectively-better styles for all of them based off of the top of my head and cross-referencing the base game usage chart.
Most of their other styles aren't bad either though so you should double check to see how they all synergize with each other and make some changes to fill some holes if needed, I'm too lazy to carry you through the entire process.
>play with my favorites
>most of my 2hus are weak to the same things which are extremely prevalent
>all battles down to the wire because of it, lots of frustration
How do I use Sukuna, Yorihime and Momiji on the same team?
Reincarnate as many puppets as you can get away with and then use the remaining high level ones to repeatedly farm Yuki, the first E4 fight in Makai, by beating her up, gapping back to Makai and then facing her again.
I feel like there is something hidden here, but holy crap this forest is large.
Then again, from what I've heard, this is small time, so I'm unsure how to feel about it.
Make sure to save before reincarnating in case you end up not being able to clear it reliably so you can reload their levels back.
A perfect team for the job can get away with using only 3 or even 2 puppets but odds are you'll want to keep 4 or possibly 5 if you're struggling at high level to use.
Second time there I spent most of my time thinking "where the fuck am I supposed to be going, I just want to go to the next area".
I was horribly disappointed by how small Muenzuka was in comparison to the travel to get there.
Uh, well, pray you have access to some decently leveled puppets in your box and then just start farming grass in the best area you can handle.
Makai and the Hakurei caves have some level 50-60 puppets that start off in normal style and are thus pretty weak shit for their level so you can catch them with pretty much any level 30 style changed puppet and then use the captured puppets to carry the rest of your team into a better area.
Everytime i hear something about Nazrin, my mind goes back to that doujin of her done by the guy that loves to draw heavely detailed motorcicles.
Horrible flashbacks to overpowered Gen 6 Pokemon part 4:
Extra Parsee gets Parental Bond. Except the second hit is 60% strength rather than 50%. And she's part Nether type and learns Starving Spirit. Let this sink in.
Just messing with you, she's much slower and has significantly worse bulk, and it's 60% on BOTH hits.
It's sounding like starting over m8ght be my best option. I don't like the idea of having to, but I'd rather play through the game again than mindlessly grind. Now that I've got a good idea of who I want to use, it'll probably be quite easy.
Assuming I do, who would you suggest as a good replacement for Marisa? Looking up her abilities, neither of then sounds particularly good. And who's a good starter to carry me through things quickly?
ChenA would be your best bet.
She gets used for speedruns and she's pretty much just straight up better at what Marisa does.
Kind of a waste to choose her as your starter when she can be the first puppet you catch in the game though. MikoS and RemiliaP are also great picks for stomping through the story.
Oh, cool. I'll grab her, then. And I used MikoS as my starter last time, so I'll give Remilia a try. She was awesome even without A in everything, so she should do well here. Thanks.
Only the yama can give scary lectures.
Stick with Marisa, Kleptomania is actually a fantastic ability when paired with an elemental gem. She's meant to be a scout, so typically you lightning speed or changeling out, spending the gem in the process, while stealing an item from your opponent. And ignore >>24958357, ChenA is exclusively good for speed running, she's not actually all that good for netplay.
Nigga what? Double immunity with encourage alongside passive trapping to guarantee maxing out your attack into a free kill followed up by 120 base speed with tripled damage to wreak havoc isn't good in netplay?
She's #28 on the all-time usage for a good reason.
Ignore >>24958499, ChenA is a monster in netplay due to possessing Arena Trap alongside tools Dugtrio could only dream of. She is a lot worse in the expansion, but basically Niche Assist Chen breaks in-game while Adverse Winds Assist Chen breaks netplay.
Updated the pastebin w/ the link to the YnK Puppets Usage Chart.
It feels like as if I've never left at all; why did I even bother trying to?
Will get to translating the webpage for hosting battles and any other descriptions/details for hosting in game.
However, for the time being, please refer to http://fgts.jp/vp/thread/24884448/#q24894340 in order to get a better idea of the new layout for setting up matches w/ others.
>Don't even have 'cut' yet
>Already 31 puppets
Christ, I can't keep myself from scouring the grass of each new area I hit for new stuff.
Even though Letty was nerfed, I feel pretty good. She's so fun to use that I want to make a double peace sign.
Definitely some of them; I feel like Japan is looking towards the new ones and messing around with them rather than seeing how the old favorites fit in or changed.
Like at any rate the pool of viable 2hus is going to be so large that you can throw any Smogon tiering system out the door because most puppets are going to be viable.
I am disappointed there is no statistic on how many puppets use their waifu costume, although I would expect the number of matches involving those to be 95% at minimum
actually okay with that. I have a feeling I would accidentally use a lewd image for the OP, anyways.
Same here, already have everything up to and including the blazing hells.
Palace of the Earth Spirits was the quickest yet, each of the 4 showed up one after the other. Thought it'd be a 15 minute hunt for Koishi like it is for the other rare ones.
I wish I could just throw cute pictures into the OP and call it a day but these threads already get enough flak as is even when I keep it as game-related as possible.
/vp/ just doesn't appreciate cute things enough, life's hard.
Part of the surprise for me is KanakoE. I still think she's rather middling, but she's #47. What strikes me as especially weird is that she performs worse in 3v3 stuff and gets dumped on by HecatiaE, the most common thing online.
Slightly more surprising is that D is at 62 even though she didn't get any major changes. Guess that form is just solid enough to work anyways.
Some naive delusional part of me likes to hope that it's because I've been keeping the OP pictures exclusively as screenshots from the game that show off that it has Pokemon-style gameplay, but it's probably just because they all got bored and gave up.
What? so far these thread have been good, there is a "go back to /jp/!" fag every once in a while, but unlike in /v/, they have no power here and everyone ignores them.
Yep, missing probably two in the human village so far in addition to that shrine/graveyard I'm at.
>South Forest of Magic (Huge Tree Area) (Level 25-27)
You don't need anything to get here?
You're the new chief now, remember?
Use as many qt pictures as you want. Or is this a ploy in order to have me make threads again?
Got it coach, I'll do my best.
I never signed up for this life, please send help.
Nah s'all good, I'll be around for a good while longer.
Don't worry anon, you won't be disappointed.
Sometimes the changing of the guard is a good thing, I'll be looking forward to our time together.
One of MokouE's abilities is the innate Life Orb bonus on all her attacks, not sure about the other. She's surprisingly tanky, Fire/Wind isn't a total shit typing like in Pokemon, and she gets pretty good coverage out of Fire/Wind/Fighting/Nature/Light/Nether.
She's pretty slow, but otherwise she's great. Use her.
The expansion has some decent chance of bringing it into relevancy once people start getting some experience with it but it's total shit in the base game.
Defensive units are still good but you can't rely on poison, burn and entry hazards being your only source of damage.
Hemo and his team did everything on their power to fuck stall.
She also gets that special-oriented dragon dance.
Maybe I should add her to my team. I love Mokou as a character but in the base game her forms were either pretty bad (Power) or outclassed by Ustusho (Speed)
God that fucking cat got me lost for 30min. And that was with speedhack
Both. Who knows what the new meta will bring though.
>everything can learn the local rapid spin and it has enouhg power to be viable.
>only poison types and some others can learn the local toxic
>there is a terrain effect that turns healing into damage
>everything can learn the local taunt
What do you think?
The meta here is "use your favorite 2hu at the best of her ability".
I'm sure most of us already know this but some might not have thought of it yet.
If you're low on SP you can always just forget the skill and relearn it, can come in handy on long treks.
>Sukuna with big boobs
>yet, is still small
This is fucking hilarious.
RemiliaP isn't too surprising. A lot of the newhus from the expansion have extremely polarized defenses, and Remilia both has fantastic type coverage and some of the best mixed attacking stats in the game.
Remilia E is the one I don't get. Either Pride is really good or she has a fantastic moveset.
If you think I would run a team that wouldn't let me see Raiko's attack animation, you are wrong.
Stall legit just doesn't work no matter what you do or what/how much you try.
It's pretty much guaranteed that RemiE's usage is gonna be heavily inflated for a couple weeks due to the combination of people trying the new style + Remi being a very popular character.
She could still be good though of course, we'll have to wait and see.
I'd check for myself, but I need a place to grind. So far, my surprises for top 50 stuff are LunaE and KanakoE, but I haven't checked what LunaE gets. She seems interesting but I dunno great.
>6 months later, translation is finally done
>ZUN announces new game
>which makes hemo announce another expansion
Well it looks like the whole "Use a cute picture for the next OP" plan is gonna be a bust, odds are this thread's gonna fall off while I'm asleep.
Although last time I said that I ended up showing up 5 minutes before it died so who knows.
Someone else is gonna need to be prepped to bring up the next one unless I happen to say otherwise, probably gonna be about 9-12 hours from now.
Don't be sad, maybe next time you can open the thread with remilia.
There really aren't enough newhus in one game to justify a full blown expansion. He can't just keep inflating the number of styles after all. It'd be more likely to see an entirely new puppet game I think.
No worries, about it being started. Issue is more than just one of us may be ambitious of starting it.
Oi, I'm the Reimifag not him!
outside of the effect >>24958995 mentioned...
Looks like some people are making use of her swift swim fog ability. It's really hard to evaluate merit when we don't know what Pride does and what her popular new move, スイートデスペラート.
Yeah though, nothing looks super remarkable. Her typing looks cool though, and poison is going to make one hell of a resurgence in the expansion I think.
Liking Remilia/Sakuya/Flan is generic taste,
is like liking Charizard/Lucario/Mewtwo to be honest family.
Damn straight I will, Remi needs to be delivered to the masses.
Yeah, whoever's gonna be around for it needs to make it clear which person does it so we don't get a double post and push our luck with the mods.
And it's okay, we can all be Remifags together.
Train up a youmu and use her priority move on her champ, assuming that is the one giving you trouble.
So now that I check Sanae, it seems like SanaeS is the preferred form. What changed for her? She's above SanaeE and SanaeP fell off entirely, when SanaeP was 25th in the thing before the expansion. Only thing I can see is a buff to her stats, which SanaeP also got a taste of.
Ah. My best puppet is my Level 40 Defense Nazzy but I've been using her for the first few puppets. I'll save her to hammer throw Remi then.
That is all under the assumption she'll can outspeed/survive her first attack.
>buff to her stats
Holy shit you weren't kidding.
That's huge. She'd be a super solid user of Sharp Wind.
As for her placement, well the rise of poison helps her out. But the most popular move for her is an OHKO move, which tells me that people are mostly just fucking around here. Best not read into usage statistics too much until a few months pass.
SanaeP didn't get the same buff quality, but still a noticeable power boost and slight defense boost. Skanda seems nice attached to a 60% flinch chance.
I don't see why people are screwing around with an OHKO move, what the hell? Why mess with that when you've got something that can throw out wind moves without caring about Chaos types, or earth moves without caring about Wind types? And that's on top of now decent stats and better STAB options.
Made to Hakurei mountain, that will be a good stopping point.
Marisa's Patchy really put it to me, wasn't expecting it to be a fire/water type.
Ended up getting distracted and translating http://gensou-suwako.com/swk-append/room/roomhost1.php instead. Will post the second half in a few minutes if I don't get distracted in the mean time.
("[Chat Room]/[Advertisement] Creation Screen")/("[Chat Room]/[Advertisement] Creation Page")
("Enter the information of the room you want to create")
("Topic or blurb. [30 characters max limit])"
*This is, essentially, where you name the chat room.
*blurb = short phrase that serves as an advertisement
("Description [200 characters max limit.]")
("Chat room or advertisement")
("Chat Room URL or related URL ["50 characters max limit"])"
("Please paste [and try to use] the chat rooms [or anything similar] at [near] the bottom of the site")
*Refers to TodaysMeet and Chatploo
("Room Capacity [please don't place a limit on advertisements]")
*「無制限」 is the "unlimited" option
("Termination Time [in minutes])"
*Room's time limit before it expires
*1日 = 1 Day
("[Basic See 6/Pick 3] First 5 matches. No party changes")
("[Free Rules] One match")
("[Tournament Notice] Month - Days, United PT Tournament Meeting!")
("Looking for help with Open Ports testing!")
("User-Friendly Chat Rooms")
("Close/delete the chat room or advertisement")
Generics are a bunch of lewds.
I got distracted.
("This page's description")
("Feel free to make rooms for meetings, animations, tools, advertisements, etc. [Anything not related to Touhou Puppet Dance Performance is not allowed]")
("Please get that person's permission before advertising his/her work")
("IP: Please specify your port or anything else in the Chat Rooms, if you're hosting battles. Your IP→XXX.XXX.XXX.XX")
("The # of people currently in a chat/advertising room or progress until the termination time is reached is displayed at the top")
*Not sure if this translation is accurate
("The current maximum rooms is 5, now; feel free to create/delete [rooms] to how you see fit.")
Friendly reminder before I bail out that I won't be here to make the next thread so someone else is gonna have to bring it up.
This one's probably gonna drop off in anywhere between 2-5 hours.
Although it is on page 7, I could just throw the next one up real quick if no one else cares to, but a bunch of people got pissy about that before way back in the beginning when some other guy was doing it.
Finally, the most fabulous 2hu getting the recognition she deserves.
If you can then I have no idea how, I just know I can get there from the surf side and after being lost on that side for fucking ever I never found a non surf way to Alice's side.
The uncertainty of this page's description is making me question my translations.
("About 0 people are currently waiting in the tournament.")
("Group Format [Same Opponent & Rematches]")
*I have no idea if there's actually a difference between 「撮りたい」 and "OK," due to this page's description.
("This page's description")
("If either host or client is "continuously not connecting to the desired partner" or want to fight a previous opponent, then use local matchmaking in order to do so.")
("Battle Replay-Distribution: "No" option and [Record!] option will [maybe] only work for local matchmaking.")
("Despite the variables/options above, people might not be able to connect to each other for local matchmaking.")
("It's okay to F5, but please use it in moderation.")
>Defense Tenshi sucks
You get out, as well.
Is there something I'm missing about her? The only really nice things I'm seeing are her physical bulk and reliable recovery. She's got 5 weaknesses and her STAB looks kinda bad. Her only coverage is Fire.
I think the idea is that it should be assumed unreachable without surf since it's listed after the surf part and of a similar level range.
I just find it personally frustrating that the list is chronological except for that part unless I am actually missing a path.
Chronologically speaking, the West/South Forest of Magic should be placed after Genbu Ravine Caves and before Road of Reconsideration. I'm not sure who's bright idea it was to place them together with East Forest of Magic, I don't even think they're truly connected, even after you get surf (though I might be wrong about that).
>I don't even think they're truly connected, even after you get surf (though I might be wrong about that).
The Puppetdex in the OP should have links to maps, including the maps for the Forest of Magic.
Will give you a a legitimate reply with set suggestions as soon as I'm done finishing up translating, in a bit.
Alright, it's as I thought then. You can briefly enter certain small areas of the Eastern map from the West, and vice-versa, but the two areas are blocked off from one another, you can't travel from the main section of the Eastern map to the main section of the Western map, you need to loop around the forest.
It's no problem. I was also thinking of changing around Ice Cave and Abandoned Mansion, but that would probably just be more confusing than anything else.
Man. I don't know if I've ever struggled so much to make a team for story mode.
Realized that 「バトルの撮影・配信」should be ("Record Battle") and my formatting is inconsistent.
>("ID: Port code match")
("Port Number / Match Code")
("__________ Enter 10800")
*10800 is the default port; the "Enter 10800" button is just there for convenience.
("Comment that is to be seen by your opponent [50 characters max limit]")
("Please take care of me!")
*Just about any generic (polite) greeting fits 「よろしくお願いします!」
("Continuous matches with the same opponent)
("Record Battle Replay")
("This page's description")
("Please have the tournament settings/preparations finished and ready.")
("If either host or client is "continuously not connecting to the desired partner" or want to fight a previous opponent, then use local matchmaking in order to do so.")
("Battle Replay-Distribution: "No" option and [Record!] option will [maybe] only work for local matchmaking.")
Don't really try to mainly use her as a wall; focus on making her a bruiser, instead.
I know that I've said that I'll give you set suggestions and a more in-depth reply, but I've realized that I shouldn't be spoon-feeding too much. I'm sorry, anon.
Nah, it's fine. I'm just curious. As a bruiser she seems like she'd be even worse since her STAB is easy to resist, but I might just not know what I'm talking about. Even discounting Sukuna D, a lot of other things seem like they'd work a lot better at the bruiser stuff outside of having recovery.
Forgot to mention that the 「募集!」 button translates to "Now recruiting!" or "Now taking applications!"'
TenshiD is more of a support-bruiser than anything; she's more useful for taking chunks out of sweepers and nullifying support moves.
However, like you said, you might as well pick SukunaD if you want a more aggressive tank.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that Flawless skill. Still, I'm not completely sure about her because of the STAB moves. From what I see, Sukuna D is for pure physical stuff, while other tough stuff might go mixed or have some interesting moves.
Going mixed isn't considered to be viable, since just about everyone is planning to sweep with a full investment in speed and a single attack stat; there's a very good chance that you'll get OHKO'd without doing anything unless you have a Black Choker or your puppet is particularly bulky e.g. Nue.
Pick the cutest ones.
Ah, I was referring to mixed offenses, as well; I suppose I should've talked about the more common problems with mixed sweepers.
Despite the fact that you can just rely on base HP, Sp. Def, and Fo. Def stats to keep you alive, that won't work very well. The problem with relying on bulk for survivability is that, at most, you'll only be able to survive 2 neutral skills (on average) despite having above average base stats in HP, Fo. Def, and Sp. Def. Also, even if you're fully investing in both offenses, the only way you would be able to take something out in 1 hit is to land a SE hit (and to land a crit, I guess). However, if you're up against something that has a SE skill and is faster than you (which is likely if you're fully investing in both offensive stats), you can and will get knocked out in a single shot due to this game's balancing. If you try to evenly distribute your points into Sp. Atk, Fo. Atk, and Spd, you've made a glorified Orange.
tl;dr fast + dedicated to one attack stat = current meta, and Hemo balanced every puppet too well.
You can still see your waifus, though.
very few of the mixed attacker puppets are actually viable mixed, you will only boost one stat with ev's so you need 100+ power moves in your unboosted stat to remain threatening.
I see. From what I can tell, a couple bulky attackers run mixed offenses at least. Not fully investing into Sp. Atk, but they at least run one coverage move on their weaker attack stat, like KanakoD running Inferno around 50% of the time. Maybe she's not the best example since she is only at #62, but it's weird since she was around that area before the expansion and she's not a particularly popular character.
It's possible that KanakoD is still around rank 62 because she's being supported by other puppets. Either that or people are still trying to see if old sets are still viable.
Send me a screenshot of your Tools.
I just think it's weird because like I said, she's not a popular character. She's not Sakuya or Koishi or anything. I can at least get Extra being high since she's new, even if that form is bad. But they're not even using that new Earth move she got, or the one usable support move that works like Tailwind. It's all offensive moves, with Inferno being second most used.
>or the one usable support move that works like Tailwind
People simply don't want their designated sweepers to use up a turn setting up, whilst they could've been attacking instead.
>that new Earth move she got
Are you talking about Swirling Dust Gate?
>Sakuya is a popular character?
Are you for real?
Alright, let me put it this way. There's a popular Japanese website that does a yearly popularity poll.
Sakuya got 4th place last year. Further more, she's consistently been in the top 5 for the last several years. The only character who consistently places higher than Sakuya is the main character herself, Reimu.
From what I remember, yes. She's not like Eirin or anything. I mean no one runs Eirin.
No, it's a 120 BP Spread attack. I wouldn't run it, but it's an option. Either way, I'm still weirded out by a lot of decisions. From what you're saying, the only good thing to do is to attack stuff until they die, but people are running what looks like Dragon Tail on some of these bulky attackers. Something that weak wouldn't be very useful in a meta like this. Are these guys just idiots?
I'm assuming that they've already set up Sticky Web before, and now they're trying to just cripple the opposing team before sweeping safely.
As for the 120 BP Sp. Atk skill, I'll go look into that after I wake up.
Don't forget to make the new thread if no one else is planning to do it.
Sticky Web is something people run? Man, this meta is really confusing me. Maybe I should just shut up and play for myself. Anyways, the new 120 BP Earth skill is just a clone of Inferno and other similar moves. TenshiD gets it as well, and probably a few other things. I'll probably post it next thread.
Admittedly, I don't pay as much attention to touhou as I did in like 2011. It shows when all these puppets show up that I don't even recognize like Kokoro, Rika, and the tanuki girl (Mamizou?).
I figured she was fairly midding, but not one of the top in popularity like I expected of the vampire sisters, patchy, reimu, alice, marisa, etc. Especially Rumia, doujins of her are weirdly common.
I was talking more general popularity of the character.
I can see Sakuya winning polls just because the vampire sisters split their niche (and thus their vote) while Patchy has to compete with Kaguya.
Sakuya the only maid
(PC98 doesn't count)so she basically gets a wide, popular niche all to herself.
Eirin has pretty good stats. The problem is that in the original game (don't know if the expansion is the same) there are no particularly powerful Spread Poison/Steel attacks for her to use.
>Ara ara types aren't very common among the touhous
Eh, I would consider Yuyuko and Eirin as taking the same niche.
Everyone polled is allowed to vote for up to 5 characters, so I doubt that's all there is to it.
There's a few possibilities:
1- the meta is just too young for people to really do much more than smash eachother's faces in with sweepers and revenge killers
2-a lot of counters exist in the form of boost inversions, priority status fuckery, abilities, etc
3-terrain/weather/walls/hazards may be more potent to set-up than stat boosts?
4-too many ubers-tier bulky puppets relative to the strength of setup sweepers to make it a highly potent strategy
I mean if people don't even have time for fucking 580 BST Moody then it's not that surprising when actual setup sweepers are rare.
Speed-boosting set-up moves are relatively uncommon.
However, in addition to these, there are Brave Song (Nasty plot), Strenous Stance (Swords Dance), and the rare Mad Rush Stance (Shift Gear) and Moon's Protection (Calm Mind).
My guess is that since there are so many high-speed puppets, even something like Brave Song ChenA at 120 base Speed can get killed by something faster than her.
And the priority Phase Inversion might simply have people too scared.
I think you need to redownload the dollpages text files; your copies of the files aren't up to date.
At the very least, both RaikoP and RaikoE get Brave Song as well.
Not much gets phase inversion though even in the expansion (not counting normal stances): MikoP, MikoS, MikoE, MimaD, MimaP, SeijaS, SeijaD, SeijaS, SagumeD, SagumeP, SagumeE, LyricaP, YumemiS, and YumemiP. 14 puppets total.
Yes, that means that Hemo took it away from UtsuhoS on TOP of the speed nerf.
Might also be worth noting who gets Skanda (or Cover Ground) and Strenuous Stance (or Brave Song); double boost movesets are a thing in Pokemon (example: Primal Groudon)
Decided I had nothing better to do and did it myself:
Cover Ground + Strenuous Stance (i.e. Rock Polish + Swords Dance):
waifu bias detected, damnit Hemo, KasenE, RumiaE, SuikaE, YuukaP (although even Cover Ground won't salvage her speed), ShouP
Cover Ground + Brave Song (i.e. Rock Polish + Nasty Plot)
YamameP and YuugiP
Skanda + Strenuous Stance (i.e. Agility + Swords Dance)
HijiriE. That's it.
Skanda + Brave Song (i.e. Agility + Nasty Plot)
HijiriD, AyaE, MerlinE, RikakoE, RaikoP
Equivalent to Work Up from Pokemon, so no not in a million years.
Also made an error with Skanda + Strenuous Stance; that combo is held by RanE, YumekoE, and HijiriS; HijiriE has no set-up moves and is just a glass cannon mixed attacker.
Worth noting that most of the users of Skanda are on the faster side to begin with; the list of puppets worth using it on is probably drastically smaller than the list of puppets who can learn it.
I checked the usage chart, and the only users are YumemiP 19% of the time and MikoS 33% of the time.
Sagume is high in usage, but Phase Inversion isn't common enough on any of her Types to show up.
Actually all three of her Types are top 15, I think hemo overdid it a little.
That's because Sagume gets in her power and extra forms an ability unique to her completely that's basically a permanent phase inversion for the opponent as long as she's out. Kind of nuts.
Defense Sagume lacks that though so I don't get why it isn't popular on her.
Double boosting sets are generally a gimmick; while RaikoP is slow enough to appreciate the double speed from Skanda, there's anti-synergy with Lightning Speed. You could try and make her into a double boosting sweeper, but I feel like that's not the best gimmick to use when uninvested base 65 is going to get outsped quite a bit even doubled (with no investment but S-rank speed, RaikoP is 86 speed at level 50; 86 * 2 is 172; that's not enough to outspeed a lot of fully invested things like FutoS or AyaP that you REALLY want to outspeed, let alone anything with a scarf on. You could put more points into speed but that's points you could be investing in defenses or Special Attack instead.
Full-on stalling is definitely pretty shit but just going flat out nothing but "Press damage button to kill enemy" isn't great either, I'm hoping the YnK meta has more depth to it than that.
Balanced teams can use a legit wall to help deal with threats and for utility purposes; even those with 0 damage output like OrangeD are useful. It's only "ALL WALLS NO ATTACKS LET ENTRY HAZARDS AND POISON KILL THEM" that will crash and burn in this game.
Waifus beating up other waifus.
What? i thought everyone knew that when someone says "stalling" is specifically talking about the "don't attack, let the hazards kill the enemy"'s bullshit, Walls =/= Stalling.
Yeah, but some people might think that stall being worthless means walls are worthless.