Discussion about the making or playing of Original English Language Visual Novels save for the ones from /ksg/.
Do you have a question about a Japanese visual novel or a translation of it?
/vn/ is ready to answer it.
For Developers. Huge collection of guides on everything:
Previous thread: >>128464663
Remember to BUMP THE FUCKING THREAD every three hours please
>Parents agreed to go over my script because I have no friends
>When I ask their advice, they shrug "idk it's your story"
>Why did they even read it?
I wish I had someone to trade scripts with
>When I ask their advice, they shrug "idk it's your story"
anon, this is code for "it's crap but I don't know how to tell you that"
you could share it with us, we're not afraid to tell you it's crap
i'm just puzzled by it. I mean, I guess you could say that if you design characters to be cute BECAUSE they're yandere, because ha ha the idea of a girl being dangerous is funny, then that's sexist I guess?
Or i guess when the idea comes around that "all girls are crazy bitches who will stab you if they think you are cheating on them" then maybe that's kind of sexist but does anyone actually think that?
The main thing feminists complain about with male yanderes is the idea that all women really want a crazy controlling guy who watches them sleep and threatens to murder them if they leave. Or that such behavior is being promoted as Very Romantic.
You may be right. Is that my last option? I'd prefer to be privately told it's crap rather than publicly
Where do you find sensible online person?
No friends okay
>Where do you find sensible online person?
People shit on lemmasoft but i've met very nice people through there.
This was years ago though now you might get jiro horikoshi or firecat offering to read it.
That's kind of par for the course. Asshole borderline abusive dudes are sold to us as romantic and we're told to lap it up. Twilight? 50 Shades of Gray? Fucking Darcy and Heathcliffe? Hell, Romeo and Juliet. Shakespeare meant it as "whoa these kids fucked up, check this shit out" where Romeo straight up kills Tybalt and kills himself because "wah I can't have Juliet", and it's pretty much synonymous with the greatest romance story ever told
I mean, even I like fucking yanderes because "oh he just loves me/you/the protag so much, that's why he's doing it. He'd go to the ends of the earth for her~" and I know for a fact that it's because that shit was presented to me as a kid. Because I remember watching Hunchback of Notre Dame and thinking "oh man, Frollo loves her so much that's romantic" so that shit had to have been ingrained even before I was 8 or 10 or whatever age I watched that movie.
So yeah, saying yanderes as love interests are fucked up/sexist/presenting abuse as romance makes 100% sense to me. But I'd argue that as long as you put a little line somewhere of the MC going "no you're not normal, stop this" or at least someone in the story recognizing it as awful and try not to market that shit to young teens as true love you would do a decent job of not perpetuating that whole shitshow.
>"nobody cares you don't like BL"
>proceeds to write an essay about it
>or at least someone in the story recognizing it as awful
Why? People read vn's for wish fulfillment, they don't want to be lectured at about what's right or wrong. Women playing otome games know that irl that sort of behavior is weird, they don't need to have their hand held like children and be taught that "Hey, a guy stalking and murdering another human being for so much as looking at you is wrong, okay?"
I appreciate it, but I'm afraid it's not a waifu game, so I don't have much hope you'd want to read it
I may try there. I only didn't because I didn't want to post about the game before it's complete. Thanks for the suggestion.
You know it's fantasy, right? I didn't watch many of those things you mentioned and I like yanderes. I would never pursue a guy like this in real life and I never felt it was forced down my throat.
Most people don't emulate that cool shit you see in action movies.
You don't like yanderes, that's okay. Other people do. You already know what you like and there's media for that.
People read novels as wish fulfillment. I'm sure you've heard about the rape cases caused by people reading 50 shades of gray and thinking it's okay to copy. You can think that people know better to separate fiction from real life, but there's a million real life cases and examples to prove you wrong. People are super easy to convince, dude. Especially when multiple sources tell you over and over again "oh, he knows your class schedule. He must care about you a lot to learn so much about you and follow you. Give him a chance."
So I'm not going to get mad about people complaining about stories that present yanderes as good, because they're right. They shouldn't be presented as good. They're supposed to be bad characters. I love them, but oh my god are they garbage and they definitely shouldn't be marketed toward pubescent girls as true love. And you know a large chunk of otome players are pubescent girls.
And let's be honest here, if having a little asterisk with "hey this relationship isn't good" or a character expressing doubts about you dating the boy who hangs outside your window just watching you sleep ruins your game, you didn't have a very good one to begin with.
No, but I'm explaining why people who are complaining have a good point. Obviously I can't make you do jack shit. You could turn on an episode of Jackass tomorrow and copy it verbatim; I'm just explaining why having the "don't try these stunts at home" at the beginning is a good idea.
The problem is if you do that then people will bitch about how awful your game is for having "evil" characters. Every time I've seen a game present unhealthy, abusive or fuckedup relationships as such, Tumblr throws a tantrum and misses the point, but if you present the same activities but have the MC rationalize what's going on as something romantic or positive they'll defend it to the ends of the earth (seriously go look at how people talk about DMMd). It's almost like they can't even tell something is fucked up unless the text points it out to them.
It can only help though. There's literally no downsides to having one.
And in fact there's more than just one upside because not only can you reinforce to young girls who might be playing "yo this shit is bananas, don't stand for this IRL" but more people will be likely to play your game if they hear you do something like that. It's different than all the other games that just slap a yandere down and tell you to dig in. You're doing something different, and they're going to want to know what else you did differently in the actual game itself.
Think of Hatoful Boyfriend. I can guarantee you hundreds of people downloaded it because "lol birds" and when it actually turned out to be a good game beyond birds it became a huge thing.
Only pros, no cons.
Exactly, he was always shit from the beginning. And then in reconnect, they tried to give him some "redeeming qualities" which just ended up backfiring and making him look like even more of an asshole.
There is the difficulty that no matter how much you bash people over the head with it, some people will manage to take exactly the opposite message you intended.
Which doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get your point across, it just means that sadly you have to recognise that some idiot is going to get it wrong, even if the game dances around blaring trumpets yelling 'THIS RELATIONSHIP IS SCREWED UP'
It can be pretty frustrating, as a writer.
Anyway, I have no problem with people making a yandere game becuse they dig yanderes. If you advertise the game as CRAZY MURDER BITCHES DIG YOU then anyone who buys it and objects has only themselves to blame, and it's not like you were trying to say this was normal behavior.
Toma's route still weirds me out.
I still don't know what the person who was complaining about a yandere girl being sexist actually thought was sexist about it. Probably just one player being weird. Don't worry too much.
Kids TV often tries to limit certain kinds of dangerous behavior displayed on screen because kids are dumb and do dumb shit.
It may be unreasonable to make Pokemon not fly, but if there were an episode with Pikachu sticking her finger in a socket to recharge I expect there would be objections
Don't you lump Darcy in with the rest of them. Darcy is stuck up in the beginning and Elizabeth is biased against him because he said she isn't hot and he cockblocked her sister. They both make mistakes and they both get better and more reasonable as people. He's in no way abusive and certainly not comparable to guys who watch protagonists while they sleep, those who ruin lives and beat their daughter-in-law after they forced her to marry their abusive son nor is he Leonardo Di Caprio.
No? It can't only help, some people will do stuff precisely because it's forbidden or marked as unsafe.
And even if there are people who say that they did something because of 50 Shades of Gay or Twilight:
1 Citation needed
2 Did they really read it or is their lawyer trying to get them out of trouble with some stupid ass excuse
3 Wouldn't they be fucked up to begin with, if reading some crappy novel makes them think they can rape girls or whatever
He's not abusive but Pride and Prejudice is widely received as painting the picture of "keep pursuing that asshole, he secretly has a heart of gold."
So it's more along the line of
>he's pulling your braids because he likes you
>"I love watching you sleep, Bella"
If someone engages in unhealthy behavior because of something you've written it is the highest praise you can receive. It means you're such a skilled writer they want to make the story you've crafted into reality even if it hurts.
either that, or it's proof your game is somehow addictive
How it's widely received is a pity, because it's more of a tale of how people (both of the protagonists, not just Darcy) come to terms with their own shortcomings and recognise that the "other" isn't all wrong, either.
Darcy doesn't even go and pull Elizabeth's braids, so to speak. All he does is he says she's not all that at a ball and then later gets interested in her because of her personality, and so tries to be sociable while she spends a good half of the book treating him like dirt (for the times and their comparative positions) because she fell for Whickam's lies, mostly because she's biased against him due to that one initial remark.
Seriously, it's much more interesting than just a love story because you can read it, go back and see exactly the point where it's Elizabeth being a douche to him and he's actually quite chill even though she's definitely behaving in a way that wouldn't have been accepted by anyone else at the time considering his position in society. She remarks herself on it when she's wondering how she could have taken Whickam's account of the dealings between himself and Darcy even though everything she'd seen should have usually tipped her off and made her realise that Whickam is just full of shit and essentially a con man.
Darcy is no more of an arsehole than Elizabeth is during the book, particularly if you keep in mind how things went at the time (which is a pet peeve of mine, when people judge behaviours). If anything, of the two, she's the one that goes out of her way to hurt him intentionally, while his problem is that he's rather antisocial; but he's never malicious.
I'm continuously miffed at how most people either focus on the shallow aspect of romance given in particular by more recent adaptations (it's not shallow in the book) or the idea that he's got to be some example of an arsehole that will lead readers to the mistaken idea that all arseholes have a heart of gold.
People in general don't like being lectured and people shouldn't have to list off everything in their game that could potentially trigger someone. And what if the yandere is supposed to be a surprise? You'd be into spoiler territory at that point. And even if you put in the warnings, some people will still complain about the content included in the game.
>says a lot about your own mental health
i remember when missing stars and wip both started development
literally years with one poorly received demo between them, and dischan's debacle is like a cherry on the cake
get your shit together evn devs
Hey /evn/, I was thinking.
So let's assume I'm going to hold a kickstarter campaign for my game, and for that campaign I will make a demo with the first day completed.
Now, assuming I also have approved developer Google Play, Itunes, and Steam accounts, would it be a good idea to put this demo there? Or will I get shit thrown at me after several months of the demo being in the stores and the game itself nowhere to be seen yet?
A warning isn't a lecture, mainstream video games already do (if you want EVNs to ever become more mainstream you'll have to accommodate current standards like content warnings), and the warning doesn't have to name names. It still doesn't even spoil the surprise, either, because I've played games with yanderes where I couldn't remember which character it was and I promise you it was more fun trying to figure out which one it would be than to suddenly find one.
If you're writing's good enough to support subtle hints anyway.
I'd argue that such a general spoiler does absolutely no harm since you still have no idea who's involved. It could be side characters or the main character. All it does is prepare you to see that content somewhere, it does absolutely nothing to tell you where.
You seem like you're just going to maintain that a general warning will ruin the game, though, so there's really no point continuing this.
Probably the same reason there are tv content warnings. And once again, I doubt a game would suffer if there's a general warning. It can do nothing but good.
You're not really reading any of the other posts so enough.
I am, though. And you're not considering the instances where it's supposed to be a surprise. There's no sense in telling someone shocking content is incoming because it removes any impact it could have. Playing detective wondering which one's the yandere/going to die/going to turn into a moose vs assuming they're all normal and suddenly finding this out are not the same thing. It can absolutely do harm to the experience.
>VNsnow just shat on sickness, I'm inclined to believe it won't be very good
He shits on everything though, unless you generally agree with his reviews.
also a bit messed up he tried to cut the dev off at the legs before the game could even release. not that it will affect sales but the act itself is a bit trashy
I think you're falling into the trap of "my content NEEDS to be kept X, otherwise the whole experience is ruined" that creators fall into. Your stuff's going to get spoiled. I absolutely guarantee it. But that's okay, because it's not a surprise that makes a game good; it's the storytelling.
Once again, if your story can't survive a little blurb about "abusive relationships are depicted in this game" or however you choose to write it, your story was never good in the first place.
Basically it's not the warning that's doing harm to the experience, it's a writer's inability to work with one. I've been spoiled for games all the time, but the experience is still exactly as good as the creator intended because the writer didn't write around a surprise. They wrote a good game that was good even without the shocking twist end.
>Your stuff's going to get spoiled
Sure, but why should it be by me? Why do I need to cater to the people who need their hand held and a blanket because they can't handle being taken by surprise? There's outside sources to tell them if there's upsetting content.
I tend to disagree. I don't doubt your experience, but not everyone is you. I have seen movies and read books that were decent but I've certainly resented it when they were spoiled and, while they were still good, it was a different experience than they could have been. If a particular plot point is supposed to be a surprise, you'll have a different experience if someone tells you.
I don't have a problem with age restrictions, but I really don't want people to start reeling off all the possible content warnings to me, simply because we seem to be going in the direction where everything is problematic, you're going to write an epic with your content warnings if you start listing anything anyone's ever had a problem with.
"This work of fiction has mature themes and is not suitable for people under a certain age or anyone with a Tumblr account" is all I could stomach. Just don't tell me the specifics, please don't humour the perpetually aggrieved.
Because you can control it better. If you choose to put warnings on your stuff it deters other people who would spoil/post warnings themselves to help other players. If they see "oh, okay. They already have a warning about it on their main site" they're more likely to use just copy+paste/repeat that warning than to tell their friend "This game is good, but I would watch out for Tom if I was you." It's like a controlled leak. The leak will happen regardless, but you'll want to be the one trying to have an influence on what leaks or not.
Basically, and honestly the last time I'll post this because I cannot make the entire point any clearer unless I bash someone over the head with it, having general warnings for your content can do no harm, only good.
I don't understand why you refuse to admit that they can harm the experience. You can avoid discussion, but you have to read the description of the game you're playing to know if you even want to download it. It ruins the game for people who want to go in totally fresh. You are absolutely wrong saying it can only do good.
If you're reading a description you're not going in fresh cause you're spoiling yourself for the plot. Only way you can go in without harming the experience is to just download the game without knowing anything about it and if you do that you're not going to read the warning to begin with. So you're covered.
I don't see why people are necessarily going to paste the description, it seems to me you're the one who's making wrong assumptions. You can't control what people say period and you can't guarantee people won't warn others even if you have a content warning, but you can control what you say in your own description or which warnings you put at the beginning of the game.
Well, as usual, if ALL your lesbians are psycho (unless the game is specifically a psycho lesbian fetish) that might be bad, but in a cast full of gay they shouldn't all have to be perfect
It's true, though? Although players are kind of dumb and forget things that they were clearly warned about in the game description.
"Oh, no, I got a bad end and was murdered by my brother, I DIDN'T KNOW YOU COULD DIE IN THIS GAME!"
>game description is literally 'Solve the mystery or be murdered by the killer'
(I'm making up this example but I have seen things just that obvious being complained about.)
I'm avoiding discussion as much as you avoid discussion with a brick wall, dude. I've told you time and time again why warnings are only good and literally every time you've replied "but my spoilers". Even with general warnings I mentioned that only say at some point in the game something bad either happens or is discussed, it's "my spoilers". I can't think of ANY game that handles twists so poorly that even hinting that something might happen/be amiss would ruin the experience, but apparently you're writing one.
So just scroll up to read my previous posts and pretend you're responding "but then my story will get spoiled" to all of them, it'll be the same experience for you and I won't have to waste any of my time.
And to elaborate: warnings are not only good. They can be detrimental. It's disappointing when your reaction to a twist is "oh, there's the thing" and not "woah, holy shit!" But your head's too deep in the sand to understand why some people wouldn't want or need them.
Alternately, the conversation is
>Having the option of warnings is only good!
>But I don't want warnings so no one else should have them
>Nope! having the option is only good!
Forcibly shoving the warnings down people's throats at the start of the game can obviously spoil things for some players, and no matter how much you try to warn people some people will still miss the warnings, but it doesn't mean you can't hint and that you can't have warnings available for people who want to know about them.
You don't like spoilers before you play. That is a valid approach. Many people DO, though, and it can be a problem with marketing when devs/writers try too hard to guard all their precious reveals and end up making the story seem unappealing.
If you're already invested in a show, you often should skip the 'Next time, on...' preview because it WILL spoil shit because it's trying to hook people who aren't invested yet.
Voting no only removes it from your page, it doesn't stop it. Only yes votes count.
Both high school edgy AND stupid. A terrific combination.
>I'm guessing you don't just email them and ask them to shill for you with a set cut.
You can do that, but they'll just take the cut and skip the shilling. You don't need them.
Is he the only even vaguely gay or camp character in your game?
If so, then that still has nothing to do with whether you personally are homophobic, it's just a Problematic Trope. You post on 4chan, of course you're homophobic.
That entire commentary and he didn't mention the art once. To me the sprites look way too different from the CGs.
Also, I hope he reviews A More Beautiful World when it comes out, because their response would likely be amusing given how they (or their friends) reacted to that article criticizing their kickstarter.
Really? I'm pretty sure some people were annoyed at Sekai Project, because them not locking down their backerkit for months on one of their projects caused the conversion rate to work against them.
>seems a game can sell 1k copies and get like 4
remember, those 'sales numbers' are complete guesswork. and even if 1000 people actually do own the game, if 900 of them got it for a penny in an indiegala bundle and only launched it for cards, they're not going to leave reviews.
get 1000 actual sales, you'll have a lot more than 4 reviews.
I think No One But You looks and sounds professional, the art is particularly nice, and it is also decently long, but... The writing itself feels very dry and barebones, it runs through scenes really, really fast. Maybe it's a taste thing, but I found the writing kind of dull.
I'm interested to see if the writing thing is me being particularly nitpicky, or if other people feel the same way about the writing I did.
It's kind of like the writing in Written in the Sky - generally done to a decent degree (like, not loads of spelling errors, sentence construction is okay), but everything just moves really, really fast. Which is odd, because the common route is pretty long.
I'm pretty sure is not just you. Most EVNs suffer this issue, but I guess it's normal when you have just one writer.
Personally I don't mind it, if the game has an (less than) average lenght.
Well you have to keep in mind that the biggest fear of most of these authors is that their audience will get bored and leave.
Look at SC2VN, which some consider successful-- 50% of players drop it before 37 minutes. The actual success of SC2VN is that it did not get negative votes and reviews from the huge majority of its player base who dropped it within 37 minutes. I can't find any other VN that is dropped that quickly on a consistent basis whether free or for sale.
My guess is that this is because events can crawl as the explanations are slow. If you do not care about the topic they are agonizing to go through and the story crawls.
The length you can spend describing something depends primarily on two things-- your audience's interest in the topic and your skill as a writer in presentation. SC2VN struggles with both problems. Meanwhile many other VNs are short enough to keep the focus on the movement of the story which is a much easier thing to do than to write really captivating prose.
It's still not easy to write even at that level, so this is not a disparagement. >>129183572 you'll see more variance in writing styles as the market matures.
Pretty sure all of that has to do with SC2VN being free meaning that random Brazilians are going to download it and close it when they realize they can't read shit. The only free VN that has a bunch of playtime per average person in Sunrider, and that's because it has gameplay. But I mean...
First two free games I looked up, both lower than SC2VN. Point being that your point about writing is probably correct, but you can't really apply it to SC2VN or really any game on Steam with a single data point on play time. Also, SC2VN is well paced, no clue how you'd find that the story drags.
is written in the sky actually longer than half an hour to read? i thought it was a short game.
The Sad Story of Emmeline Burns shows a surprisingly high playtime for a game that IS actually only half an hour long... but who knows where it's getting those values from and whether they're at all accurate?
Yeah, lots of people will DL free VNs on Steam and then just auto through them to look at the art, or to get achievements (if there are any), and won't actually read it. And there will be people who get them even if they can't read the language they're written in, and then quit early on in.
>he doesn't play VN on automode
>he speed reads through a 30k-word KN and says its too short.