Discussion about the making or playing of Original English Language Visual Novels save for the ones from /ksg/.
Do you have a question about a Japanese visual novel or a translation of it?
/vn/ is ready to answer it.
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Previous thread: >>128054194
Remember to BUMP THE FUCKING THREAD every three hours please
Looking for evns on vndb is annoying. Some had demos years ago and so far no releases. It's really annoying when I sort by date because they're at the top of the list. Are projects like Paradise Plus and I Only Date Free! still being worked on?
Can dead projects be pruned? I'd imagine it'd be easier if said projects had official announcements surrounding their abandonment.
With evns especially, it's not a good idea to add them unless they have a release date posted.
Nevermind, I found a game from another dev that only lists the trial release date, mentions the game was discontinued, and just didn't put a TBA date for the full version. That way people know it existed, but it doesn't clog up upcoming releases.
Tried to think of as many puns with "soul" as possible.
Gave up and just did a brainstorm session of all the themes of the game.
Gave up and just called it bullshit, I'll name it right before I actually start letting other people know it exists.
There's a thread to suggest projects for deletion, although the VNDB mods tend to want evidence that it's definitely abandoned before deleting something.
It may be easier to get rid of TBA releases for games that have existing demo releases, because then you're not trying to get the entire game removed, just to get the junk out of the search results.
I'd probably end up making it a VN/RPG hybrid instead. A big chuuni story background and some actual gameplay would both be easier to get the huge playtime and more popular with western audiences, I think. Steam users would rather fight for the grail by fighting than by reading some descriptive fight scenes.
technically, sure, but it's a lot more complicated than that. You can't just handwave "I'm gonna make a great game, gimme this money pls!" and hope it works out.
A lot of us have enough trouble getting the artists we've paid for to actually finish the work at all.
Now, some people do dream bigger... but many of their kickstarters fail unfunded, or succeed and then we wait years for a game that hasn't shown up and everyone's confidence slowly dips. If Exogenesis ever actually comes out and is successful, people may suddenly be more willing to take risks?
I can see what you mean. A VN/RPG hybrid might bring in a bigger audience.
Thanks for the reply. It was very insightful. You'll have to excuse me as I'm not too aware of the EVN community. I usually stuck to JVNs. I wasn't aware of a project like Exogenesis; it sounds rather interesting.
I'm mostly asking because I know Tsukhime and Mushi no Me were doujin and albeit cheap (filter photographs for backgrounds and a handful of BGM tracks) they were rather fun to read. Perhaps something along the lines of those might sit well with some instead VNs like https://youtu.be/cfQUL_n89XM
As stated above, I apologize if I've come off as an idiot but I'm not too aware of what goes on in the EVN community.
If you do put in RPG fights, design them well or get someone to do that for you. You don't automagically get a bigger audience because you tick another box in the feature list. Battles have to be engaging.
No problem. Another interesting project recently whose kickstarter didn't quite manage to get enough funding: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cccn/quantum-suicide-friendship-courtship-hardship-spac
I think they're planning to retune and fund again. Hopefully they'll manage it next time.
Second reply here >>128478921
was meant for >>128477075
Well I'm pretty sure that's self-evident. I was merely musing as to why there were so many OEL VNs limiting themselves the structures of JVNs (such as otomege, homoge, etc; I'm pulling this out merely from my experiences on Lemma Soft and the schlock I see on Steam). Though what others stated does give me some insight into as why (such as the cost for CGs).
Ah that's a shame. The background art looks great although the character art leaves something to be desired. The premise has potential.
/evn/ is full of women, SJWs, and "the medium can be so much more" people who don't want to mimic JVNs. Even if they had the budget, I doubt they'd make anything like a chuunige.
Decent fantasy and sci-fi is the most you're likely going to get.
Well, if you don't want to mimic JVNs, you could always mimic western comic books. Not the shitty way that the Vera Blanc games did, something with tight bodysuits and action scenes. There's some hot stuff out there.
Well that's a shame. I think chuunishit would do really well for western audiences.
That's indeed a possibility though I think something more along the lines of YA fiction might do better with audiences.
It depends on how well it's written. Dies Irae is chuuni bar none but its captivating and entertaining because of the writing and characters. And honestly its not as if could be any worse than the schlock I've seen on Steam or Lemma Soft.
Many western vn developers don't even play vns, they just can't afford to make other, more mainstream types of games. The complete lack of action evns tells me that's not where the devs interest lies. Their stories tend to be more focused on relationships and identity.
>its not as if could be any worse than the schlock I've seen on Steam or Lemma Soft.
I hate this mentality. "Oh this 1/10 meme game is a piece of shit but at least mine is a 2/10!"
>I was merely musing as to why there were so many OEL VNs limiting themselves the structures of JVNs (such as otomege, homoge,
Well, I already pick games of other genres for their husbando material, so I might as well cut the middle man.
same. I don't even play some of the games anymore, I just find out the names of the cute guys and look at fanart of them.
Sometimes it works out in my favor, like for The Evil Within.
I'm anal in the sense that I can't just read the summary or watch a let's play, but husbando choices are the reason why I still put up with Bioware's shit, for example. (and why I didn't bother with Fallout 4).
VNs offer the same and are more convenient.
Because every time we try to make something that isn't focused relationships, all we hear is "Why couldn't I date this character?". I'd love to focus more on an epic adventure, but that's not where 80% of the audience's interest lies.
Why? Even if it is cringe inducing you can at least applaud them for trying something than the shit that is always shoveled out. A little diversity in genre doesn't hurt anyone.
So >>128482097 was right in his statement? The reason most OEL VNs don't produce other content aside from dating sims, otomege, or homoge is due to the fact that a majority of OEL VN developers are slash fiction rejects?
I watch no commentary let's plays if I can't afford the game (or don't have the system to play it on), I watch a commentary let's play if it's by someone I like and it's a really bad game they can make fun of or a game they know a lot of trivia and shit about, and for everything else I look at the list of characters to see if there's anyone cute. If there is I look around for fanart.
I can't remember the last game I bought on release. New Vegas maybe?
No, it's the same reason most JVN are dating sims/bishoujo games and the like: because that's what the majority of people like. For every chuuni battle game you have tens of dozens of school life romances. The EVN scene is much smaller, so there's an appropriately tiny amount.
this reminds me, does anyone follow any VN or renpy specific tumblrs/blogs? I have fyeahrenpy and visual-novel-interfaces (and renpyhandbook but that hasn't updated for months). Obviously most stuff's on lemmasoft when it comes to tutorials but I wouldn't mind more graphics/ui stuff on my dash.
You're absolutely right. I take back my previous statement. Nonetheless, I feel a bit disappointed at the quality and variety. I'm sure there are those in the EVN scene who know of titles by Ou Jackson, Romeo Tanaka, Takashi Masada, or Gen Urobuchi (not that I praise anything from him aside from his writing) and might take after them.
>the shit that is always shoveled out. A little diversity in genre doesn't hurt anyone.
Very few people complaining about the shit that is "always" shoveled out actually have any idea what's being released and wouldn't notice your supposedly-different game.
Ask a handful of EVN posters and you'll probably get "All EVNs are shitty boobfests", "All EVNs are weeb japanese high school knockoffs", "All EVNs are katawa shoujo clones", "All EVNs use filtered photos and stock GUI", and all sorts of other random assertions which don't agree with each other and aren't true.
Your special game won't change their minds.
>a majority of OEL VN developers are slash fiction rejects?
If that were true we'd have a lot more BL games being produced.
If you were serious in your question, you need to learn that most 4chan posters aren't serious in their answers.
People have said as much in this very general. There was even a guy a while back who asked about what our pet peeves were and things we liked in VNs, because he hadn't read any but was going to write one himself because he liked the look of the medium.
>I feel a bit disappointed at the quality and variety.
Do you actually know what the variety is, though, or are you the guy who's seen some awful AJ Tilley games on steam and assumes that this is all that EVNs aspire to?
We have horror games, we have time travel games, we have games that do not have romance routes, we have RPGs, we have cyberpunk, we have a lot of stuff.
We do tend not to have super-long games because of budget and workforce issues though.
Yeah, but do you think that guy actually ever made a game?
When you say "many western developers" it sounds like you're talking about the people who are producing games, not an anon who wandered by vaguely once.
Maybe I'm overly picky by not counting Idea Guys as developers.
Now I never once purported that a chuunige is any way special or different than other VNs but would be interesting to see produced considering the volume of other things being developed.
I have. Time travel games, horror games, cyberpunk is all fine but my previous criteria about quality is still left unfulfilled. The writing and dialogue in many of them is cumbersome and dull. A great premise can still be vastly fulfilling in the wrong hands. None of them has so enraptured me with their execution.
Anyway I'm gonna stop here before I make a complete idiot of myself (if I already haven't). My original question was noting more than a simple musing so I apologize if I've come of as abrasive.
You haven't, you're doing fine. Sorry, I just run into a lot of people who judge all games by the worst two they've seen, and I feel like a lot of people even in /evn/ don' actually care about other evns and don't know what's out there.
These evns sold the most copies on MangaGamer's site in 2015.
>For the third-party titles the top five are:
>2. Beach Bounce
>3. The Menagerie
>4. Divine Slice of Life
>5. Sakura Santa
Here's what the competition was made up of:
Huniepop - January 19
Ecchi Mery and the Perils of the Cosmic Shrine - May 8
Beach Bounce - August 14
The Menagerie - October 2
Divine Slice of Life - October 23
November 18 - Highschool Romance
Sakura Swim Club MG Edition - November 25
Highschool Possession - December 9
Harajuku Dating Paradise - December 10
Sakura Santa - December 21
I am working on three projects: one is a kinetic novel, the second one is a side-scroller ADV (a la 1bitheart) with three-ish different endings and the third is an RPG/eroge hybrid with 7 routes.
Which one is /evn/ most interested in? The second chapter of the KN is done, the sidescroller's full outline is finished, and the RPG is 3/7th the way done (outline-wise). All of them need to be edited.
Pic related, it's the protag of my kinetic novel
>tfw you wanna make an LGBT themed evn
>know multiple voice actresses that work on evns
>have money to pay them
>have time to work on it
>don't know any artists
>writing is a pain in the ass for me
>no one will probably even play my game and the LGBT stuff will just cause a shitstorm
Your projects all sound doomed so I am not interested in any of them.
Having a second chapter done means jack shit. Having an outline means less than that. And having 3"/7th" of an outline, holy fuck, I would fire anyone who told me they were 3/7th of the way done with anything.
Completing a VN is actually not very hard. The trick is to work on the same one until it is done, do not get distracted by other projects, and keep fucking producing. That is all you have to do. However, this goes well beyond the capabilities of an average person, which is fine since average people are pretty garbage. They do stupid shit like buy CGs, BGs, and Sprites when they do not even have 10% of the game written. They outline and outline and outline and barely get anything done.
It is really easy for us to critique shitty EVNs but the competition is not even showing up.
Not really. Most EVNs are extremely poorly written. Sentence structures are simple. Ideas are lifted from anime, movies, or high-school level literature. The writing is basically fan-fic level and most of the writers do not seem intelligent or well read.
I would love to compete, however, even a financially successful EVN would not rival my salary. It would have to reach the levels of HuniePop to justify spending my time on it. Such are the perils of career success.
how am I supposed to tell if they'll do VN work or not?
I contacted one artist over facebook and the moment I said the main character is transgender he backed out immediately
And deviantart writers are a cancerous bunch
>Sentence structures are simple.
Every time I try some fancy shit, people yell at me to simlify it. Granted, I'm a filthy ESL plebeian, but the complaints aren't about grammar or syntax.
>Not really. Most EVNs are extremely poorly written. Sentence structures are simple. Ideas are lifted from anime, movies, or high-school level literature. The writing is basically fan-fic level and most of the writers do not seem intelligent or well read.
Definitely agree. The writing in many of them are bottom of the barrel. It doesn't matter if the art is pretty or it has a long list of features when the core element in EVNs is so piss poor. You ask anyone who reads JVNs if they're interested in EVNs or on the look out for an interesting titles and they'll respond with "not really" because the quality is subpar to what they usually read.
>they'll respond with "not really" because the quality is subpar to what they usually read.
No, they'll respond with that because they ASSUME the quality is subpar. It's not like they'll have played any of them, except maybe Sakura Spirit.
Over and over again I see this in VN communities.
Sure, I can name a few EVN writers whose skills are shit, but I've seen JVNs that are pretty bad too, and the translations are all too often downright terrible.
This. People are either blinded by their weebness or biased against evns because they only try the shit stuff, while thinking all jvns are good because only the "best" stuff gets enough recognition to became avaliable in the west.
Not unless you run around making a big stinking deal about it and maybe not even then. There's tons of indie game projects with special snowflake content these days. You're more likely to be ignored.
I mean, if you go out of your way to bait people then they might bite, but...
If Mogeko can work on multiple games and a commercial manga, so can I
Which genre out of the list is your favorite, then? The first one is a remake of an old script I posted on /evn/ ages ago, I doubt anyone remembers it though
>Which genre out of the list is your favorite, then?
You don't even know what genre means, fairly guaranteeing that everything you make, if you even make it, is going to be shit.
>No, they'll respond with that because they ASSUME the quality is subpar. It's not like they'll have played any of them, except maybe Sakura Spirit.
Not quite true. You'll see them play some of the more popular EVNs (Juniper's Knot, Katawa Shoujo) and be turned off by what they see because their rhetoric and content is absolutely abysmal.
> but I've seen JVNs that are pretty bad too, and the translations are all too often downright terrible.
Absolutely but the difference between that and EVNs is that there are competent writers in the JVN scene. I saw someone in this thread post Ou Jackson, Takashi Masada, Tanaka Romeo, Gen Urobuchi, and I'll through in others like Hiro Wataru and Setoguchi Renya. If there were any good writers you'd see them name dropped here or there to have the naysayers change their mind about EVNs. Yet where are they?
I wonder whatever happened to the tranny lady maker project that was supposed to be like princess maker except you were saving up for your transition and improving all your prettiness stats along with the other things.
>Problem: the most critically acclaimed EVN writers are women,
Then pray tell, who are these writers? Even the JVN scene has incredibly competent female writers like Sakurai Hikaru who's craft is heads and tails above most male writers in JVNs.
>that Christine Love is one of the most critically acclaimed writers working in EVN.
Now you're being facetious.
>>that Christine Love is one of the most critically acclaimed writers working in EVN.
>Now you're being facetious.
No, I'm proving my fucking point. It's literally true. Remember all that mainstream (well, for gaming) media attention over Digital?
But we can't admit that here, because she's not the paragon we want to have.
Send me an email at [email protected] with your contact info (pref skype). I'll add you to Skype and we can discuss it. I am a writer. Keep in mind this would be commission work (i.e. you would be paying for it).
Having media attention for your game does not equate it to having quality writing. Love's writing is something that should be sold at checkout aisles for discount instead of being fed to the masses as anything else than kitsch.
Analogue also got an honorable mention nod for narrative in the IGF a few years back. There's a Hanako Games title that's a finalist this year. Last year the award went to 80 Days (Meg Jayanth) but I don't think Inkle counts as VNs, they're pretty much pure text. 80 Days got lots of awards though. I wonder if she'd do straight VN?
>The most critically acclaimed writers are women but if we name them there'll be a bunch of whining.
>"That's not true! You're making that up!"
>immediately the whining begins
>It's literally true.
It's literally not. No one dislikes her writing because she's a woman, you retard. But you're probably a woman yourself who wants to blame all your problems on the big bad patriarchy, huh?
Note wherever in the conversation I stated "critically acclaimed." I said "competent." Love is the antithesis of competence. It's as if saying J.J. Abrams or Michael Bay is a good director for making hit films.
>No one dislikes her writing because she's a woman, you retard.
If we're going to keep going at this, that's literally false, I've seen multiple people immediately drop Analogue when they find out the writer is female.
I'm sure you'll invent some reason in which this is all her own fault and totally not because anyone else is at all disposed to prejudgment.
Sure, but at that point you're bringing it down to your own personal opinion, which makes it impossible for anyone else to have meaningful input.
That's why I went with "critically acclaimed" rather than outright "popular". HuniePop and Sakura Spirit are popular, but nobody claims the writing in them is any good.
There are people who think the most critically-acclaimed JVN writers are shitty hacks retreading the same material too often, too.
No, SOME people drop it because of that. Those people are sensible.
Others quite specifically, in forum conversations, find that the author is female and immediately say they're out.
Yeah, a lot of non-writers seem to think the longer and more semi-colon riddled your stuff is, the greater it is.
The most you'll do is give people a headache unless they're already used to reading shitty purple prose from turn-of-the-century british novels.
Save the 12th grade reading level and Dickens-esque writing styles for technical passages or the asshole character that tries to come off as philosophical and wise but just sounds like a "I tippeth my hat to you, m'lady" dillweed.
>but at that point you're bringing it down to your own personal opinion
The quality of Love's writing does not swing to good or bad depending on the opinion of someone. It's ineffably bad. Compare her writing to say Nabokov, Dostoevsky, Kafka, or even genre writers like Jack Vance or Gene Wolfe. They are heads and tails beyond her ability and yes the JVN scene has writers on that level it's just that those writers' works aren't getting translated due to the intricacy of their writing.
A while back a noteworthy JVN writer made a comment on Twitter wondering if more people thought Sakurai was a woman or more people thought that one of his co-workers (a woman who uses a male-sounding penname) was a man. It blew up but the next day he deleted his comments but basically confirmed that it was true but not meant to be public knowledge jokingly saying he'd accidentally revealed a "national secret" and to never speak of it again.
MOST people who drop it do so because of that. A minority drop it because the author is a woman.
Quit your bullshit saying her writing causes a shitstorm because of her gender. You know full well it's because of the content and actual quality.
>The quality of Love's writing does not swing to good or bad depending on the opinion of someone. It's ineffably bad.
Funny, then, that critics disagree with you.
>Compare her writing to say Nabokov, Dostoevsky, Kafka, or even genre writers like Jack Vance or Gene Wolfe.
Have you noticed that your list of examples has an interesting skew?
No, but I think I could write a character that is one well and want to make some money off of writing while getting practice.
A transgender character is not something I would plan into my own story, so it is good practice to get things that I would not plan. They have also finished all of the planning (or so they claim) so it's just execution work. Basically, I want to start doing some commission writing and I feel I am well above market in terms of technique. For me this is a "serious hobby". I want to help people get their VN produced and would be willing to work on any subject matter, so long as the project is actually going to see the light of day.
Of course they're a minority! I was replying to someone who was insisting that such people didn't exist at all.
As far as people discounting authors in general just because they're female, it's half in jest but not entirely. There's an awful lot of scoffing in here about SJW whores, even though much of the thread is secretly female, and themes which are considered manly are often held up as more worthy than themes which are weak and womanish. There are many people who believe that nothing good could ever be found in otome. However, I don't actually think this is /pol/, not by any stretch.
>Funny, then, that critics disagree with you.
An appeal to authority won't salvage Love's prosaic writing.
>Have you noticed that your list of examples has an interesting skew?
Who do you want me to list? Marcel Proust or Dan Brown?
>and yes the JVN scene has writers on that level it's just that those writers' works aren't getting translated due to the intricacy of their writing.
Nip writers are racially inferior. That's why they almost never win Nobel prizes for literature. Russians far outstrip them.
>An appeal to authority won't salvage Love's prosaic writing.
My apologies, the appeal to authority was not intended. Let me rephrase: if her badness is so self-evident that it is not, in the slightest, a matter of opinion, it is strange that not everyone agrees with you.
>>Have you noticed that your list of examples has an interesting skew?
>Who do you want me to list? Marcel Proust or Dan Brown?
I don't want you to list anyone in particular. But it was rather an interesting list for multiple reasons (not just the maleness)
>it is strange that not everyone agrees with you.
So now you switch to an appeal to majority? Suave. Brava.
>But it was rather an interesting list for multiple reasons (not just the maleness)
Oh. You wanted women? Then why didn't you say so? How about Emily Bronte or Jane Austen or perhaps even Virginia Woolf? The point of the matter is that sex doesn't matter. Love is a dreadful writer irregardless.
That was the most obvious catch, yes. The predominance of writers that you're only reading in translation (unless poster is a polyglot) and the age of the writings in question were also noticeable.
While I would not actually accuse the poster of this, because it's not like I know him or his tastes, there are people who find original-foreign-language works to be inherently more "deep", because of slight differences in common tropes, and because of granting them extra leeway due to the fact that you're only reading a translation. The age is also an issue. Some people only consider literature to be worthy after it has been around for a good long while, and somehow feels more like Art than like popular entertainment.
Please note that I am not saying that poster only dislikes CL because she is female, writing in English, and under 80. Only that it was an interesting list.
>So now you switch to an appeal to majority?
I'm sorry, do you actually understand the terms you are using here?
Do you understand the logical problems inherent in "my personal opinion is not a matter of opinion, my personal opinion is fact"?
I was actually going to say this. Plus if we're looking at the VN medium I would say that J. K. Rowling, Anne Rice, Stephanie Meyer, and Suzanne Collins are much more relevant.
One of the issues with VN writing is that I could actually just focus on making a very marketable YA Novel and would receive way more money that route if successful. If successful as a visual novel you get maybe $100k-200k for a year of work. Whoopie. That kind of money is only a big deal for kids who do not have real jobs or own real estate/assets/anything.
The problem is that 4chan is so lower class that 100k+ a year is viewed as a "good" salary or some people even think it's incredible. It's basically dirt, but people are very timid to accept that.
Do you? Read over what you said before.
>it is strange that not everyone agrees with you
It is appeal to majority.
>Do you understand the logical problems inherent in "my personal opinion is not a matter of opinion, my personal opinion is fact"?
Fine. I'll concede to this for the sake of argument. That then is but merely one writer, one. Where then are the rest?
>J. K. Rowling, Anne Rice, Stephanie Meyer, and Suzanne Collins
Perhaps. But there is still a wide gap between what EVNs and these author's dish out.
>That kind of money is only a big deal for kids who do not have real jobs or own real estate/assets/anything.
You do realize that most devs treat it like their hobby, right? 100k a year for something you do ON TOP of your regular job is pretty good.
I'm not in this conversation/discussion/whatever, but are you guys talking about females being unfairly criticized for their work because of their gender?
Because I wouldn't bring up Emily Bronte if you are as an example of females being respected as writers, she and her sisters had to use pen names just to get their stuff read and not be thrown in the asylum for writing those filthy novels at the time. Austen's fine, her pen name was "A Lady", and I don't think Woolf used a male pseudonym either.
Following that train of thought, the publishing house had J.K Rowling (Joanne) use her initials instead of her full name to attract male readers, though I don't think that's on the same level as "these Victorian women are writing novels, send them to the asylum boys"
Anyway, just a thought while I was scrolling past these posts. Carry on.
>I'm not in this conversation/discussion/whatever, but are you guys talking about females being unfairly criticized for their work because of their gender?
No. Just in general the quality of writing of EVNs compared to JVNs written by competent writers.
Anyone who makes less than 100k a year is fucking retarded. There are way too many viable routes that do not even require college education and only require easy as shit community college.
Nurse -> Anesthesiologist $300,000k AVG (Basically zero effort on this one, requires education)
Profession of Choice -> PMP Credential -> Project Manager 105k+ (if you do not have HS or college you can focus on a construction related trade and get this training /cert for less than $2kq, otherwise you can get PMP with any other credential and they all play well. Especially humanities ones).
Pharmacist -> Easy as fuck and they take damn near anyone. Does not have upside of other gigs.
Cop -> Most cities and counties in real places (east coast/west coast/chicago) start recruits at 80k. A few years of lockstep pushes you to 100k.
Air Traffic Controller -> Probably a fucking charity. $100k+ at start. All you have to do is not have a fucked up background.
You can also consider many military test-on positions. Anything GS-11 and above will pay 100k+ and if you're not fucking retarded/average, you'll just get it immediately.
When I was unemployed during the great recession I did a test-on with the gov. Returned to 100k immediately. I was 25 at the time. I remember looking around the room of mostly ethnic idiots and wondering how anyone could miss a question on the test-- but apparently people did.
Sorting things in alphabetical order 2 hard.
>Cop -> Most cities and counties in real places (east coast/west coast/chicago) start recruits at 80k. A few years of lockstep pushes you to 100k.
That's wrong lad. It's 60k starting at LA.
I don't think you can really compare the two. Japan has a huge history of VNs and so many hundreds of studios. EVNs are still a pretty small/niche thing. It's comparing apples and oranges.
>buried by Sekai Project on launch
>no trading cards
>steam spy estimates sales might be as low as negative
Let's all bow our heads for a moment in remembrance.
I feel bad, but I wanted it to fail. I found the art style gross and the general premise to be extremely stupid. I am not glad it did fail because that means things are rough, but wow did it not deserve success.
Only a few of those are actually relevant the rest are atrociously bad but it's not as if the thought hadn't occurred to me. Rather the issue at hand was addressing some of the flaws in EVNs that could make them a bit more popular with naysayers who only read JVNs.
I don't remember hearing about this one when it came out
>. Rather the issue at hand was addressing some of the flaws in EVNs that could make them a bit more popular with naysayers who only read JVNs.
I think that conversation would work better if we had a concrete example to discuss so people would stop yelling about straw men and derailing the conversation.
Maybe we should find a game to savage in detail.
Perhaps but as of now I'm getting physically tired. I've got to wake up early tomorrow to take care of some things. Whoever it was I was arguing with, I mean no ill will. Happy developing.
how do I have the characters post their inner thoughts on social media without it coming off as "what the fuck is this game doing, nobody would just post about how much they're starting to like the MC"
Sometimes you can't just force procrastination out of you. Sometimes it goes away after months of inactivity and you go back to being productive and faster than before. That's what happens to me. Dead for months, then sudden inspiration and hyperactivity for days non-stop, then dead again and repeat.
Watching someone else making progresses sometimes helps in the way "So many people are releasing their games. What am I waiting for? I want people to see my creation as well! The faster I work, the sooner I'll get their feedbacks!"
Making visual novel for me is fulfilling because you can make people experience feelings you dictate. When I work on something, I can't wait to see how people react and why
is it acceptable to make a vn with the sole purpose of pushing an agenda? I know a couple "big" evn's did this with homosexuality but I don't know how well received they were All the dialogue is a lot of conversational hypnosis and agenda pushing on players.
I'm pretty much trying to convince the male players to become twink femboi traps and take slutty pictures
>is it acceptable to make a vn with the sole purpose of pushing an agenda?
>I know a couple "big" evn's did this with homosexuality
No they didn't. Are you hoping someone will actually believe you when you say that?
>I'm pretty much trying to convince the male players to become twink femboi traps and take slutty pictures
Okay, in THAT case releasing a game with an agenda is fine.
Half of Winter Wolves' games are either "BEING A STRAIGHT GIRL IS BAD, MEN ARE AWFUL! LESBIANS RULE!" or "THE BEST MEN ARE GAY MEN!"
Like Heileen 1 literally turns into a rant from the writer about how much she hates men and likes being a lesbian
It depends how good you are. The better you are at writing, the more you can push or get away with. You do not seem very good and your agenda seems very difficult. I don't think this is going to work.
I plan to vigorously push anti-"transgender" messages. However, subtlety is the key. Rather than being explicit about my message I just intend to touch on the real reasons I am opposed to the "transgender" pedagogy. It's very difficult to criticize someone who advocates honesty and authenticity in their visual novel.
>Like Heileen 1 literally turns into a rant from the writer about how much she hates men and likes being a lesbian
uh, didn't Winter Wolves write Heileen 1 himself? that was before he started hiring writers. and that's why your stepmom is a hot babe in lingerie who hits on you, because that's perfectly normal in Italy
>Half of Winter Wolves' games are either "BEING A STRAIGHT GIRL IS BAD, MEN ARE AWFUL! LESBIANS RULE!" or "THE BEST MEN ARE GAY MEN!"
That's because it's written by self-hating men who think they're required to put themselves down in order to get pussy.
Bruh I don't give a shit about transgender stuff I just get off to mind control and feminine cocks. Doing both at once just gives me the hardest boner in the universe. I've already convinced a couple friends to become cock slut "traps" to the best of their ability.
You mean the thing where you go into history and click a line to get taken back to it?
I can't remember any EVNs that use that, although I know some JVNs do. I wonder if it's feasible with Ren'Py.
>looking through game code for "inspiration"
>start screaming at them when I see a really awful and time consuming way of doing something
Why would you define over 200 images yourself? Why?
You have to keep in mind that if you see errors like that it means someone who is not a programmer is programming. Not all projects have the budget or team to get a good programmer, so you're going to see duct tape dreams played out.
Im pretty sure the auto define is a free code thats been around since 2009 or some shit. I've also seen some doing it in 3 lines of code for the whole game.
It really depresses me when i see stuff like that because i know if you even add a new sprite expression you have to go into the code and define it.
Cool, no idea what that is, but I am glad you do. Keep in mind the things you can contribute are not the same as what others can/do contribute. I can understand what "auto define" is from context. But to know how to use it would take time. Manually defining things for a single project is probably not as time consuming as learning how to automatically define them. Especially when the goal is "get this out the door" vs "execute all aspects brilliantly."
>But to know how to use it would take time. Manually defining things for a single project is probably not as time consuming as learning how to automatically define them.
you dump the free code into your script and set up the folders like the guide tells you to. jfc
>Especially when the goal is
The goal is not to waste hours having to define every single image in the game and run into errors later on when you forget that you added some wink emotion to side character b.
>Ask CG artist to fix an odd lighting bug and the background being squished at the top since he used a game background
>Completely redid the background and lighting
>Turned out incredibly well and much better looking
Not what I was asking for or expecting, but the story had a very happy ending.
Sorry, anon! I actually got better during the weekend, but I had a lot of stuff to review with my lawyer (like the possibility of a US company, trademarks and the voice acting contract) and that kind of took priority over the rest.
The good news is that the demo is done, so you guys should be getting the link tomorrow.
Dischan got alot of recognition for their "amazing" vns. And quite frankly, after playing them, I never saw what people were so impressed by. The art was okay. The vns were short and felt unfinished. And the writing itself didn't expound the plot or characters very well and seemed like unnecessary bloat.
I liked Juniper's Knot, the story was short but told nicely and the graphics/GUI looked really, really polished. I don't know if I'd say it was exceptional, but I thought it was definitely good.
Maybe you felt let down because there was too much hype and it didn't live up to your expectations?
>story was short but told nicely
No, it wasn't. The fiend's past was never explained well. You never even found out why she was imprisoned. And they also threw random facts about her at you with zero explanation. She broke up a marriage, but saved another one? WTF?
Formally forming a studio in the US rather than here. I was a little wary because of taxes, but according to the lawyer there's a tax treaty that makes it slightly less complicated than what I thought.
I'm looking into it because unless one of the potential investors has a GREAT offer, I'd rather not split profits with other people (so I'd do a Kickstarter instead).
Yeah but it didn't need to be explained. The point of the story was that she was trapped, not what she did to deserve it - especially since it's evident from the story that, no matter what it was she did, nothing would have been worth such a terrible punishment.
The fact she broke up one marriage but saved another is just to show she has a fickle personality - and has no qualms being fickle with humans or their lives, because she's a demon, and is a different species.
I mean, she could have had more backstory, but imo it's not necessary and not relevant.
>not what she did to deserve it - especially since it's evident from the story that, no matter what it was she did, nothing would have been worth such a terrible punishment.
Did you miss the part where she massacred an entire village because some guys raped her friend? Also, the village massacre would've made perfect sense as the reason for her imprisonment, but the fiend said it wasn't the reason.
>she could have had more backstory, but imo it's not necessary and not relevant.
Glad to know making developed characters is optional.
But she's been trapped for like a thousand years or something, do you think any crime anybody could commit is worth being punished for that long? All the humans she could possibly have wronged must have been long dead by this point, so nobody knew why she was imprisoned anymore except her.
I feel like this is the main point of the story - that, yes, she did a lot of awful things, but the punishment was too severe.
Yeah, I mean, I could write a huge thesis on every single character in every story I ever write, documenting when they were born, what their first word was, when they took their first steps, etc, etc, but it's not important. You don't need to outline a whole character's history to make them more 'developed', you just need to show how they react to the situations they find themselves in and the other characters they encounter...
The punishment for that many murders would usually be death or life in prison, so her punishment wasn't unusual. For all we know she couldn't been a terrible person and only her long imprisonment made her change for the better, because she had time to reflect on her actions. Though anything anyone comes up with is headcannon because the story was made vague.
>when they were born, what their first word was, when they took their first steps, etc, etc
Yeah, you're right, that stuff isn't important. However, considering the whole point of the game is her imprisonment, knowing why she was imprisoned is kinda important, m80.
Analogue: A Hate Story and Juniper's Knot both have female characters that killed entire civilizations, but are still supposed to be seen as sympathetic by the audience. What makes it worse is that there are people who actually defend their actions and say they clearly suffered enough so that it excuses their actions. I disagree with this, because it would be like excusing a school shooting because the kid was constantly bullied. If people do bad things, then they should be punished, regardless of if they're sorry/suffered.
Juniper's Knot =>a forced chastity that will take a long time to end
And they had a sequel planned, so I'm tempted to say "yes". However, we don't know if the fiend was a lesbian or just a bisexual.
I'm not forming an opinion on it until I've read it.
Lots of great games have bombed, see ZE for example.
In short, your opinion on whether it's good or not is worthless unless you yourself have read it.
>your opinion on whether it's good or not is worthless unless you yourself have read it.
And people wonder why JP plays and reviews games like the Sakura series.
>You can't judge it without playing it.
>Why do you keep playing these games you don't like?
Never once I said Dan Brown was good. I was listing off better writers and having the person I was arguing that my list was "interesting" decided to giver her two options: one that was good and the other schlock because apparently the other person didn't like those that I named.
I've never wondered that. I actually got complained at for saying I disliked CDC because I usually don't like super vanilla stuff but thought I'd give it a go, and got asked why I even played it. Am I just not supposed to try things?
I don't see a problem as long as you put in the disclaimer that you're not usually into whatever the vn is about. That way people know to take your opinion with a grain of salt, which people should always do with reviews anyway. I usually read multiple positive and negative Steam reviews before I make my final decision about whether to play a game or not.
Because you've been using the tool since before another way was available, and it isn't actually that difficult to do, and you don't particularly care?
For that matter, you can't tell by looking at someone's source code if they actually manually defined all those images or if they used a different sort of macro to paste all that shit in.
>>A few people in this society have wronged me, so all must die!
I wonder if as many people would support it if it were compared to
>A few women in this society have wronged me so they all must die!
>I disagree with this, because it would be like excusing a school shooting because the kid was constantly bullied. If people do bad things, then they should be punished, regardless of if they're sorry/suffered.
It is quite common in appreciation of fiction for readers/viewers to excuse the villain's behavior because of his personal pain / bad childhood / whatever. Especially if the villain is attractive.
What's interesting, particularly in the case of Analogue, is that people resist calling her a villain at all. She looks cute and harmless, she's not aggressive towards you, people simply cannot take her seriously as a threat. Obviously, whoever hurt this poor little baby must be in the wrong.
Perhaps incorrectly, I feel like people are a little more balanced when it comes to the JK fiend. I mean, she's a devilish creature and she's in the process of being punished, we understand that she is capable of wrong. I think people see her more as a reformed villain than they do the Analogue girl.
I can understand why someone might end up doing something evil, I think we all have our breaking point. That doesn't mean I wouldn't still think that they should end up in jail.
The fiend is a bit of a hard case for me, though - because she lives forever (or a very long time, I don't remember) I don't know whether I'd think she should be jailed where she was forever. My understanding was that she had been trapped where the guy found her for centuries. Maybe she changed, maybe not.
The funny thing is, there's a legit author politics rant in that game but it's not about gayness, it's about Why You Should All Become Vegetarians
so I'm puzzled why "two" anons instead singled it out randomly for something else, is there a hivemiind club I'm not invited to?
Did HRP ever give any context for this or was it just lolsorandumb?
>Maybe she changed, maybe not.
This is part of the reason I wish we knew more about the fiend, since it's hard to tell if someone changed if you didn't know them that well to begin with.
I wonder if the people think,
Driving along the Ocean's brink,
When sunset's rose is red,
Of where the water almost laves
The silent, solitary graves
Of the forgotten dead ?
Two graves alone — all, all alone!
Marked with a rudely graven stone,
Beside the moaning waves ;
The simple stories briefly tell, —
Instead of flowers, a white sea shell
Rests on the sunken graves.
It's a good idea to ask for estimates and set deadlines before work starts.
I generally ask if the dev has a deadline, and try to stick to my own if they don't have one but if you don't set one you're more likely to have your stuff pushed aside if more important paying work arrives (assuming you're not paying yourself).
Where do you guys go to hire good background artists?
It's hard to know what to expect when you're new, especially because a LOT of artists, when you commission them, return the first thing you asked them for super, super fast, and then slow down.
I suppose. I don't remember, really. I only played it once, and I don't think I got an ending with anyone. There was some brief discussion of handsome John being a douchebag but I don't remember anything about all men being bad
remember people, molestation is a-okay so long as the person is drunk and getting into a sexual relationship with your stepmother who helped raise you for years is perfectly normal.
You may already know. I'm the one working on a a game/vn thing with incest, loli, and bestiality. It doesn't quite mesh with all the bl and yuri around here, but I still enjoy the sense of camaraderie.
This is a sketch of the mom from the title screen I'm currently working on.
And just for the hell of it here's a colored image of the brat next to her.
I prefer hardbroiled. It's meatier, right? You do that to meat. Eggs get boiled.
So when I think hard detective who doesn't take shit/play by the rules, I think meaty. Broiled.
That said, I hope soon. The more husbandos the better.
Somebody posting progress! Hurray!
Not into loli, but I like the art style. Nice colouring you have there. I hope your project will succeed! Is there a thread on lemmasoft or are you planning to make one?
Ummm, if you say so.
There's nothing limiting what kind of games we post, except the forum rules.
I know the community presses for otome games, non adult content and vanilla porn at besg, but nothing stops you from posting hardcore fetish. I'd do it myself if I weren't busy with other projects, just to push some spirit of initiative on the other devs.
There's such a fear of posting in the adult section. It's almost unbelievable
there are many things to fix, but some of them are passable. What you should adjust right away is the head. The hair side is a bit too big (especially at her right. It's drawn like she's facing the reader, but she's not).
another small mistake is her breast, which is a bit too low. But focus on the head right now. You can leave the breast as it is if you do the head all right.
It's discounted to $29.70 and it's very hyped because "OMG, an official release of a porn game on Steam!". It received and likely will receive mainstream press coverage. And it's hyped in yuri circles.
There was an ever so slightly better attempt without my backwards hand.
Thanks! It's really nice getting such an encouraging response! Wasn't really expecting that considering the material.
Once I get my attempts at coloring the backgrounds under control and have some nice/neat things to show I'll make a thread on lemma, or elsewhere if that's not recommended. I'm not sure how many users there would actually care for what I'm trying to make, but they have unteralterbach in the games list and there doesn't seem to be any rules against it so they seem pretty tolerant at least.
Everything will depend on the player's actions. They could initiation non-consensual scenes, or they could help develop a heroine into a turboslut. Aiga won't start out that way though, she's an aggressive, selfish brat who hates the player to begin with. That expression is just one of many for that pose.
The underlayer looks much better than the picture itself desu. The shadow is too deep to make out her exact facial expression, and the crazy hair looks worse than the initial twintails for some reason.
>They could initiation non-consensual scenes, or they could help develop a heroine into a turboslut.
WHERE IS THE KIKESTARTER PAGE
WHERE IS IT
me too, man
the only bitter guy who got upset over criticism that stuck in my memory is that one who drew a potato face knight (sorry dude, it was just plain bad), and I've been here since Cradle Song was alive
I've posted stuff that got positive reactions at the time, only for it to be hated when it was released.
Not that I didn't agree with the criticism, it's just annoying to not get it till it was past the point of changing anything.
It depends. Criticism, even very harsh, is good when people point out what things they think work and what don't but a lot of the time it seems to boil down to "it's shit" or "I personally don't like it" over here.
>release a commercial game you know is shit
>think making a remake which no one will want to play do their previous bad experience with the original will solve their problems
guess i've got brain problems.jpg
It's cool, but there are also many things it's very definitely *not*. Like, it's very definitely not a game where you get to play a girl and pick from a variety of girlfriends.
meant to be for >>128674735 ?
Most of what I've heard complaints about is the art so if they take the money they made from sales and pay an artist they will definitely solve SOME problems.
It can't really hurt anything, can it?
I won't read it, I never go into the idea subforum because it's mostly kids who won't get past listing their character's favorite animal, but if you just want to chat about your idea, why not?
why does everything here look like it was made poorly in mspaint? i accidentally clicked on this thread and most of this stuff is downright embarrassing
everyone has to start somewhere i guess
>most of this stuff is downright embarrassing
A lot of what's posted to bump the thread is joke screenshots of terrible VNs from 10 years ago, because the thread's a little slow.
Like, >>128696087 ? That was not made by anyone in this thread (as far as I know) and certainly wasn't being posted because it's what anyone is working on.
Posting shitty screenshots and laughing about them keeps the thread alive.
There are people in this thread who have made and released games. There are many EVNs released by people not in this thread that we (rarely) chat about.
Primarily we shitpost about the projects we're failing to work on though.
I've been thinking about getting a bunch of screencaps of the games on lemmasoft and dividing them into good/okay/bad/default GUI folders for reference, but
A. I don't know if my standards are too low/high
B. most have shitty small screencaps so it would entail actually downloading the games.
No, because it would be ridiculously incomplete. There's already a much bigger website devoted to charting VN releases - VNDB. And it's often hard to tell who posts here and who doesn't, since people are often cagey about admitting exactly what team they're on.
If you follow the VNDB link in the top post, it (mostly) displays games originally written in English, which means us.
shit, I worried I'm getting kinda ulillillia with it. I'll try to do 5 little GUI review/breakdown things by MLK day and then put the stuff up on a pastebin or something and you guys tell me if it's worth doing any more than that.
JVNs' writing can come off as terrible at times, but they, at the very least, make up for it with everything else. EVNs can be shit in all aspects from story and visuals to sound and music. The only redeeming factor is their writing, but that's if they're good to begin with.
But there are plenty of JVNs that are shit in all aspects.
No, I'm not saying "lol, muv luv sucks". I'm pointing out that there's a hell of a lot of stuff out there you probably know nothing about.
Sweeping statements full of holes make you sound foolish and prevent meaningful discussion.
Most commercially released JVNs are nowhere near as shitty as the average EVN. You probably have comparable levels of crap in the doujin scene (which is basically what EVNs are right now anyway).
Do you actually pay attention to the scene or are you just talking shit from a preconceived notion you've got in your head? There are several EVNs coming out with nice art, music, etc, but you fucking weeaboos are too obsessed with holding glorious nippon on a pedestal that you don't notice.
>Comparing "commercial" JVNs to "average" EVNs.
Case in point. How is that any kind of comparison? Compare the "average" EVN to the "average" JVN and there's not much difference. We can't compete at the "commercial" level yet, sure, but they've had decades to build up their audience. We'll get there.
>Do you actually pay attention to the scene or are you just talking shit from a preconceived notion you've got in your head?
I could ask you the same thing about JVNs.
>Compare the "average" EVN to the "average" JVN and there's not much difference.
No, there is a pretty substantial difference unless you're only talking about doujin products, which was my main point since most of the time when you guys bring up JVNs you're talking about commercial ones and not doujin games. I'm not saying all EVNs are shit or will never achieve the level of JVNs, just that you should be comparing apples to apples (and in that comparison quality is pretty comparable and EVNs in general probably actually make more money than most doujin JVNs).
They had Sekaiju: Yggdrasil listed before its crowdfunding efforts failed, and they put up Menagerie despite the Toko zero chapter being the only thing Lupiesoft had officially released before.
Question to chicks out there:
Do you guys play games with a male MC and multiple female love interest routes? Should I bother making the heroines full and complete characters or are you guys a lost audience, meaning I should just focus on making them appealing affection objects rather than fully realized women?
Not really. Unless the game is support hyped and everyone says has an amazing plot/story (saya no uta, steins gate) I won't bother. I am not gay, so I will never get attatchd to the female characters as much as a straight male/gay female would.
Yes, I play male MC games. I'm not interested in women, but I play for the fun and the story. Whether you make them fully fleshed out beings shouldn't be a question for females playing the game but a question for yourself or anyone playing it.
Well I think women in general. I am sort of worried that even if I make something pretty damn good that a male MC alone will simply repel the female audience. I might be able to overcome this by either revolving narration or by having two MCs of different genders, and perhaps doing two love interests for each and then a "final" route with them as love interests for each other, which is something that I haven't seen before but could be fun. Especially because the two MCs would be rivals/enemies during their own stories so it could build up chemistry.
I feel confident that my female POV is convincing enough. It's not Memoirs of a Geisha good, but it's good enough and my favorite editor is a very talented girl who could probably correct any errors in perspective that would break suspension of disbelief. Plus I want a really balanced female/male cast so this might be one way of achieving that.
The problem with assuming every homophobic dudebro is secretly gays is that you literally eliminate the possibility of hate crime, because then it just becomes gay on gay bashing.
It's interesting that they sell AJTilley games given that MG is NOT their publisher on Steam and those games don't even have porn in them. I thought mangagamer had said they were going to stop taking third-party games without sex because they weren't selling well enough; they dropped a bunch of their early ones.
>Question to chicks out there:
>Do you guys play games with a male MC and multiple female love interest routes?
Yes, but I'm a member of the bisexual master race.
If the plot is interesting or the girls are very attractive to my tastes I will happily play it.
> appealing affection objects rather than fully realized women?
I'm not sure how these are necessarily separate unless you mean "do they have to poop and have periods" or something, and no, I do not need to hear about them pooping.
appealing affection objects are more appealing if they have some personality though
3 of the 4 AJ Tilley games they carry are the adult versions. Fanservice seems to be allowed though. They also carry 3rd party story titles like Magical Eyes: Red Is For Anguish.
Yeah, it's just hard to figure out what they're willing to go for and whether it's worth approaching them for a game that's not porn and that you're selling on Steam yourself (denying them that slice of pie)
If your game's on Steam, they usually want you to provide them with Steam keys for the people who buy it from them. Huniepop sold very well for them because of that.
You should just run your game by them and see if they're interested.
I plan to induce mind break through the use of it.
Pic related has a very, very low pain tolerance.
>Do you guys play games with a male MC and multiple female love interest routes?
Yeah. But I'm more of an Ever 17 fan than Sakura Thingies fan, if that makes sense to you. The short version is: I'll play it if I'm interested in the story, I don't really care about the sex of the protagonist.
>Should I bother making the heroines full and complete characters or are you guys a lost audience, meaning I should just focus on making them appealing affection objects rather than fully realized women?
I'm a bit confused by the question, I mean: are you asking us whether I'd play a VN with uninteresting characters so long as they're pretty? No, but that goes for anything with a female protagonist as well.
I know, 4chan is so fickle. Which is why I need to stop caring, and fast.
Are you writing this whole thing yourself? Are you looking for other team members? I am very interested in joining a project and since you keep posting here anyways I assume you are moving forward with production and might want a team member to review your work rather than constantly going to /evn/. Although it is good that it keeps the threads up.
>Are you writing this whole thing yourself?
Yes. Lord help me.
>Are you looking for other team members?
The only team members I need now are a coder/UI designer but I'll need those when I'm at 90%+ completion. My process will be finalizing my entire script > waiting for art assets to be completed > designing my GUI > looking for someone to create said GUI > having a coder throw all this together in renpy. I'm currently on the fence about recruiting a musician/someone to do an opening video.
I do have a friend willing to help me out with proof reading/giving me general advice on writing and I gave them a piece to look over yesterday but they haven't gotten back to me yet. So I'd like to use you as a back up in case they flake out on me, if thats okay with you? I'm just hesitant about involving more people than absolutely necessary. Anyway my project email is [email protected] if you'd still like to get in touch.
Speaking of AJTilley/Dharker, apparently they're planning a sequel to Highschool Romance involving a "new story but similar twists". Fuck that VN and its basic ass twists.
how is this guy getting $1000 per month? I know that's not actually that large a sum in the grand scheme of things, but it baffles me that 92 people are willing to support his shitty games
The best selling EVN ones are all tit games. I don't think many of those writers are women. You can make money and not be recognized as an acclaimed writer.
Maybe you'll be the next Sakura Spirit studio one day.
>The best selling EVN ones are all tit games.
Long Live the Queen and Analogue are not tit games.
>You can make money and not be recognized as an acclaimed writer.
Then why are you conflating 'top selling' with 'critically acclaimed'?
I mean, HuniePop is more liked by critics than Sakura Spirit is, but it's still not exactly held up for its writing.
Itch.io pays you through Paypal. I wish they had more payment options.
I'm afraid if I do one sale and get a lot of money once, Paypal will freeze my account and that will be the only time I ever made any money.
They're still using paypal directly? Doesn't that cause problems for the people in europe, with that whole VAT thing? I thought everyone was transitioning to full payment processing because of that.