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/domg/ - Dominions General
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Who let the thread die Edition?

Previous Thread: >>127455931

Dominions is a fantasy turn-based strategy game created by two dudes. One of them is a teacher.

The game combines a simple presentation with an extremely wide array of strategic options, including over 2800 units, 800 spells and 300 magic items. Turns are resolved simultaneously, with players planning battles rather than directly controlling them.

It has simplistic graphics but is easily moddable and extremely deep.

Basically, it's an autist’s wet dream of a strategy game.


>Steamgroup
Join the steamgroup for multiplayer
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/vanheimageofvidya

>Group chatroom
steam://friends/joinchat/103582791434709795

>Our work-in-progress wiki
http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Dominions_4_Wiki

>Dom4 Manual
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/manual_dom4.pdf

>Dom4 Inspector
This is a community resource that has every unit, spell, and item in the game in an accessible database.
http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/

>Play by email guide:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=202096551

>Pastebin
http://pastebin.com/JMmSrpdE

>Debug Mod:
For testing battle formations and spells
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/debug-mod

>Where do I get it?
It is available on Gamersgate and Steam. Desura is ded.


>THE BASICS
>Read the manual
>Read the pastebin
>Read


Submit completed games here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1jHX_ZoJi6zIvDq6ANdp-W1Y89W5_fmShuDyHmAj5qC4/viewform

Results Here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlrvyEqLFYIaXRc49TheMmfdoP8jEh1m5rZJHJAzDWQ/edit?usp=sharing
>>
Also, games currently waiting for more players:

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=domgeagame - a regular EA game, Worthy heroes 5.5

http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus - massive clusterfuck game on a map what's way too big.

Get in here!
>>
>>127791640
You mean Jotunheim?
>>
>>127800854
Latus is only like 20 provinces per player, that's at least reasonable.
>>
>>127795869
The dragons are going to dive onto you anyways (flying, defender's first turn) so if you have a survivable charm caster you don't need to worry about the range.
>>
>>127801221
It has overlapping cap-rings, and most nations caps are closer in a direct line than a regular map.
>>
>>127801221
Latus only exists so no other map has to settle for being the least balanced.
>>
>>127801221
>>127801328
Don't forget the horrifying amount of preplaced gem sites.
Nations that start on one of the planes are easymode because you'll be getting 50 of whatever a turn by turn 20
>>
I just hope that everyone who joins Latus is fully aware that it's going to end in tears and globalspam instead of throwing a spergfest and/or pussying out the moment someone starts casting Armageddon.
>>
>>127804689
I joined specifically so there isn't a R'lyeh faggot spamming Armageddon.

I plan to experiment with doom-horrors.
>>
>>127805250
Good luck bloodhunting with popkill and no way to hold onto land provinces against literally anyone that wants to take them from you.
>>
>>127806501
Why would I need blood? Wish has all I need.

I didn't mean astral corruption, I meant the Doom Horrors themselves.
>>
>>127806885
Oh, well that'll work. So here's the deal with doom horrors - they have a 50% chance to go rogue every turn, so you need to teleport them onto enemy land as soon as possible. They still leave after a single battle, but depending on the doom horror and gear they can do an insane amount of damage or even take out an enemy army if you teleport it onto them. A fun thing that not everyone knows is that if you put horrors into an empty province (like, you clear the province with a horror attack and then sit the horrors there on the following turn) then they actually stay there since there's no battle, so if you can clear a province out, you might be able to put a doom horror guard on it. Not 100% sure if this works, though.
>>
>>127807409
Well, yeah, I could test this is boring singleplayer, or I could be a mad scientist nation in a multiplayer game.
>>
>>127807831
Godspeed
>>
>>127805250
take a demilich because it is immortal and has no limbs, so it will instadie if the doom horrors attack it and will never have horror marks
>>
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus
>>
>>127810878
get it together dave
>>
>>127804689
We're here to quaff bottles of living flame and prevent Armageddon; and we're all out of living flame.
>>
>>127812475
Yeah, good luck invading the Astral Corruption caster who starts in bloodtopia on a separate plane with chokepoints that most nations can't even access.
>>
>>127812694
because only the one guy with the right set up will get an advantageous start in the perfect randomized spot
>>
>>127813492
>He thinks starts are randomized
>>
>>127813558
great, you'll know exactly where to find them
>>
>>127814031
Knowing where they are doesn't help if you literally can't get to them. Even if you do make a beeline for them, you're crippling your expansion to take over wastelands that give blood slaves but little to no income with a non-blood nation. While you're fucking yourself over just to get to fight them, they'll be building up normally and when you do get to them, you'll be fighting them much closer to their cap with a long, thin strip of land which can easily be cut off and make you go from low income to no income.

In other words, you not only fuck yourself over, but you are also at a massive disadvantage in the fight itself.
>>
>>127812694
Wait which nation gets this stupid start?
>>
>>127815619
>Of all the terrible blood nations that I'd never play, which one gets the overpowered start location?
>>
>>127816465
I have no desire to play this clusterfuck map I'm just wondering if this is an actual nation that gets this actual start and bonus, and wondering how bad it can be (read: what nation would possibly get it)
>>
>>127814437
there's 1 wasteland, and a wealth of asteroid shortcuts, around the blood region
>>
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Time to meme.

Guess where I'm going to start.

Guess what I'm going to cast.
>>
>>127817732
Is it Second Sun?
>>
>>127817732
Plane of money and no indies?
>>
Do you need an extension, Shinuyama?
>>
>>127819397
It's only like 20-30% chance to end up there btw. 2 other wasteland planes have equal chances and you can also be droped off on a main world.
>>
>r'lyeh casts armaggedon and utterdark making half the nations mad so they go AI
>chainstales


are you guys done fucking the squids or did he just get bored because he had nothing else to ruin for the other players?
>>
>>127820047
Pan was a furry bitch and undershitter.
>>
>>127820047
he wasn't man enough to wish through AC. What a pussy.
>>
>>127820130
>>127820190
totally agree with both of you
>>
Does anyone have the Lugh pic with "Nothin personnel... kid" ?
>>
The touhou mod guy:
Are you currently just spriting or do you have actual stats of things, or what
>>
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>>127821541
>>
>>127819503
Nah, just got done with a long drive. Taking my turn now.
>>
>>127823894
Why does Lugh get to be so much fucking better than almost every other hero?
>>
>>127825147
He's not better than Tjatse
>>
>>127825147
He's not even very good, other magical diversity heroes are largely better
>>
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>>127825147
In his mythology he is literally the sun god.
Most other heroes are just famous generals or exceptionally talented mages.
>>
>worthy heroes gives LA Agartha an immortal flame corpse with fire magic
It's everything I ever wanted, a reusable suicide bomber!
>>
>>127827816
If only Worm Mages came with Fire magic.
>>
>>127825147
He's not.

He's a bad chassis for SC or even thug duty. TNN has far better rec-anywhere commanders for that.

Pretty much all he gets you is F3 and forgebonus 1. That's nice but many heroes give you way more.
>>
>summon an iron dragon
>costs 30 earth gems, requires research level 9
>send it against a shitty indie army of 15 trogs
>it manages to kill 3 before dying

How the fuck is this an end game unit?
>>
>>127829273
Iron Dragons are specifically good against masses of low damage units. The fact that they fly and have size 6 trample means that they can roll right over guards to start squishing mages.

Trogs are high strength units which are vulnerable to things other than trampling constructs.
>>
>>127830084
They won't really do that because "attack rear" doesn't really distinguish between the mages in the rear and chaff in the rear.
>>
>>127823263
I'm currently playing Sunless Sea. It's kinda boring so I'll go back to modding soon enough.
>>
>http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/dominions-and-mapzoom

Mod coming that puts snow on maps. Who hyp?
>>
>>127833413
>caring about aesthetics
>>
>>127833970
リサフランク420
>>
I'm a noob, this will be my second game of Dominions online. Am I in for some fun?
>>
>>127834802
no
>>
>>127834802
If you're autistic and test stuff you will win
>>
>>127834802
As someone who played in the first one, it's going to be fun as long as you don't take it seriously. Also, most sides have fixed starts, so start a game as whatever side you wanted to play with the debug mod active and an awake pretender with astral, cast eyes of debug and have a look where each other side is in relation to you.
>>
>>127828469
You can always hand them that artifact that casts Pheonix Pyre.
'Course, it's overpriced as fuck and costs something like 75 fucking gems to make
>>
>>127835220
Who were you?
>>
>>127836148
C'tis, aka someone far from the clusterfuck whom never did anything before it died.
>>
>>127836242
Oh hey, I was Patala. I think I remember trading with my fellow snakefolk.
Good times.
>>
>>127836527
Yeah, though I had little to trade because I went Quad-bless, which was hilarious in that R'yleh's dominion was less toxic than mine in the short run
>>
>>127829273
They're not well priced.

>>127835973
what artifact is that?
>>
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http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus

Four more players and we'll have every late age nation. Resign yourself to death, join the clusterfuck!
>>
>>127838003
im going to join and immediately start chainstalling

as 4 different nations
>>
>>127837693
Think Iron Dragons would be balanced at 30 gems if they had resistance to all weapons?
>>
Whats the modding command for items to have a stealth bonus? Is it #stealth?
>>
>>127838360

I think that unless they had a literal "I Win" attack, nobody but those noobish enough to not mobilize their mages/use their gems efficiently would ever use them at con 9

And even then, I would still stop at Const 6-8, get something better with my research/mages, and probably win the game while my opponent is beelining for the second of the most over costed/researched troops in the game, shortly behind the fucking tarrasque.
>>
>>127829273
Research Level 9 just isn't really worth it in general.
Poison Golems are expensive, surprisingly squishy for their price, cancerous on the province they're in, and also cost a little more than the ever-useful Lich, and only a little less than a nice Wraith Lord.

Mechanical Militia is a PD global that isn't Haunted Forest and is thus shit, especially for it's price and the point in time you get it.

Siege Golems are nice if you really need a castle dead fast and aren't awful as evo sponges, but honestly there are better ways to spend 20 earth gems. They're dragged down by awful attack and defense as well as not being a commander.

The Juggernaut is the only one I have nice things to say about. It spreads Dominion, doesn't cost too much, is very, very sturdy, and is surprisingly good at murdering things, though it's a bit too expensive to put on the frontlines.
>>
>>127839141
I think you have to #copyitem to get stealth on new items.
Unless something changed.
>>
>>127838360
>>127839727

So to answer your question: fucking no. It is balanced at a much lower research level, or costing significantly less gems. At even 30 gems and with the buff I would still only summon it in single player as a fucking joke unit, much like the Tarrasque.

Stuff at higher levels needs to be worth the mage turns used in researching them. And Iron Dragon is most definitely not worth however many mages however many turns to get to Const 9.
>>
How do you stop a geared up thug (human sized, so usually 20 hp or less) from being easily gibbed by damage spells?

Like orb lightning never seems to miss and will pretty much insta gib a thug unless you stack at llast two shock resist items on him (which you may not have access to due to path restrictions).
>>
>>127840535
One shock resist item should do it v orb lightning (it's 10 damage. Copper plate gives 25 LR), but basically you don't take fragile nerds out to "thug" for that exact reason.
>>
>>127840205
so whats worth getting at level 9?
>>
>>127840694
Not him, but see >>127839808
Construction 9 is generally not worth the research. Most other trees have nice stuff like Wish or fancy globals at the end.
>>
>>127840694

If I expend however many mages that I could've been using to attack/site search/forge/etc just researching up until level 9 on const, I expect something on par with the other level 9 stuff (wish, Gift of Nature's Bounty, Arcane Nexus). I do not want a single iron dragon unit at 30 earth gems. And if I did want that, I'd want it to come with five extra arms, fucking perfect morale, and it to fucking not be a glorified suicide bomber at const 9 and 30 gems that has to be led by a fucking something with magic leadership.

Iron Dragon is a dogshit spell and anybody that casts it has probably lost the game because of how many other better ways there are to use earth gems/a e4f2 mage.

To fix it you need to figure out a commander that is worth spending a couple thousand RP on, plus a couple turns of mages, plus some gems.
>>
>>127839808
>The Juggernaut is the only one I have nice things to say about.
Really? It seems very overpriced to me, even before you consider the specific research level/school.

25 pearls is a lot to pay for what is essentially a temple, especially at lategame when pearls are at a premium.
>>
>>127841854
If it was 20 gems and a commander, would you dig it?
>>
How do you add or change a weapon attack to a piece of armor like the horned helmet?
>>
>>127840672
so nations with only human commanders cant use them as thugs?
>>
>>127835175
>testing
>flatus
Oh boy, you're in for a fun time little salt elemental.
>>
>>127842594
Probably just add both #weapon tags and #armor tags.
>>
>>127841980

No, I do not want it for 20 Earth Gems. I do not want Iron Dragons, Sam I Fucking Am.

Listen, if they were at a lower research level, units, and cheapish, they could be like Demon Knights, and act as fear batteries. But they aren't.

If they were commanders, they'd still need to be lowered in research/gems, and even then would hardly ever be used as a SC/Thug considering their poor item slots

On top of all that, there are just so many fucking uses for earth gems that any nation with a E4f2 dude with access to this spell probably has so much other shit to craft/cast/attack with.
>>
What if you could build an iron dragon factory, which is an immobile unit with summon allies that made an iron dragon every month?
>>
>>127842740
Not usually, no. You want your thugs to have an HP pool or great built in damage mitigation like mist form. That's why things like bane lords are popular.
>>
>>127841926
You can't stack multiple temples in one province, though, so just temples generally results in a dominion stalemate. Massed juggernauts, however, can push dominion hard, which can be important if you're trying to domkill or (more likely) utilize massed immortals.
>>
>>127843163

it would fucking depend on so many things.
Like fucking everything.
Does the nation start with that commander?
is it a commander or a unit?
Can you summon more?

Your idea is so bad that nobody knows what the fuck to do with it.

realtalk: do you even play dominions IV?
>>
>>127843163
Bogus and the power rangers would destroy it almost immediately.
>>
>>127843656
This would be in place of the iron dragon spell. Only commanders can use 'summon ally,' so naturally it would be a commander

>>127843724
I don't think they storm forts
I know you were just saying that because Bogus and co are the heroes that fight against the evil overlords and this is totally a mad scientist unit.
>>
>>127843349

Instead of the summon? No, I am not waiting a bajillion turns when i hit construction 9 to get a massable army.

As a pretender? You know the fuck better.

As a lesser research summon: it would fucking depend.
>>
>>127843656
you should start with the assumption that it modifies the spell that is actually being discussed since that is how normal rebalance ideas work, cleverbot.
This would immediately let you answer
>start with it? no
>commander or unit? well I'm pretty sure units cant freespawn, so there you go
>summon more? sure, it's a spell
>>
>>127842936
first,calm down. You're talking to a bunch of different people spitballing ideas, no need to get angry.
Second, they're flying, highly resilient fear-causing firebreathing tramplers immune to mindhunt and soulslay. They seem to be a decent deal at 20 gems, since most summoned thugs end up costing significantly more after gear.

>>127843656
chill.
>>
>>127844067
not even him but calm down anon
>>
>>127844162
>>127844371
anon is just really, really, really passionate about how a summon in dominions might not be costed correctly.
>>
>>127844583
I, too, am deeply concerned by this which is why I proposed a magic factory.

It'd be a cool spell for a super stalemate situation, and those are probably the only times that you're getting cons 9 anyways.
>>
>>127843349
Pushing dominion is just generally a poor tactic. Because of the defensive advantage enemy dominion gets it's extremely hard to break into enemy dominion, even if they're not actively using priests to keep you out.

If you do for some reason want to push dominion, a better option is to build more temples in other provinces or to get a bunch of stealth priests or heretics (or both). Temples are cheaper and don't require level 9 research while stealthy priests/heretics have a more concentrated effect on enemy dominion than juggernauts, letting you precisely choose provinces to push your dominion into (and also don't need level 9 research).
>>
>>127844162
make the dragons cost fire gems, and we'll talk.
>>
>>127848309
make me baka
>>
>>127844162
Bad slots
>>
>>127848309
This. Fire needs more summons worth a damn.
>>
>>127849508
They don't really need slots.

They have 24 prot, 0 enc, mindless, can't regenerate anyways, have fear, a massive AoE breath weapon, flying trample, and an aoe melee weapon.

What are you going to give them to make them better thugs? I guess maybe a vineshield?

>>127848309
>>127849760
They're iron though.
>>
>>127850063
So are flame corpses, but they still cost fire gems.
>>
>>127844162

No. Yalls ideas are terrible ones. Come up with better ones. Making it a commander is terrible because of its lack of slots and how much rp it takes to get it. Making it a unit is terrible because why would I want to use 30 gems and an EQ caster to summon this. Making it a summon wont ever help because at CONST 9 I expect a lot more than 1 fucking Iron Dragon a turn.

They're okay, but at 30 gems and 9 construction they're pretty much a classic case of "win more"

>>127850063
So?
Even if we pretend Const 9 isnt a secondary school at best for most nations, why isnt that E4 mage being used to EQ/Forge? Why am I spending 30 gems on something that will die to fucking troglodytes than to literally anything else?
>>
>>127850686
>Making it a summon wont ever help because at CONST 9 I expect a lot more than 1 fucking Iron Dragon a turn.
I'm not so sure about this.
>>
>>127850765

you shouldn't be. It's a bad idea. Jesus.
>>
>>127850686
Trogoldytes are 2X 23 strength attack 12 assholes with high morale. Find me 20 gems of summons that they won't shit all over.

Also, chill the fuck out.
>>
>>127843320
how does mist form work anyway
>>
>>127851405
Very well.
>>
>>127842936
well construction 9 needs SOMETHING.

Currently trying this out for Iron dragons :

HP 200
prot 30
slash/pierce/blunt resistant
MR 15
attack/def 15
AP 20
does not heal, immune to afflictions (not sure how to make non healing units heal afflictions when repaired at a lab)
commander

Removed damage penalty on tail sweep, dragon's breath now has an AOE of 3.
>>
>>127851501
the description is vauge at work. so all attacks do 1 hp but at what level will an attack cause it to pop?
>>
>>127851305

fine. How about all the mages you were using to get to construction 9
>>
>>127851305
20 gems turns out to be the exact price of Hall of Statues.
Huh.
>>
>>127851305
Any mage summon
>>
>>127853469
MA Agartha wishes. Unless you're casting that on a 33% enchantment bonus site, the cost is 30 gems.

Mind, 66% of the statues summons would still do it.
>>
>>127851593

Well jeez, seems pretty good. I just hope anyone never uses that dang ol horde of skeletons spells/unraveling/opposition/etc. But that's surely impossible considering I got this at Const9 at the expense of all other schools. Easy/Obvious counters are a non issue at this point of the game because all my opponents are AI/RUSHING FUCKING CONST 9
>>
>>127854013
Isnt trample supposed to counter skeletons at least?
>>
>>127853638
I coulda sworn it was 20.
Maybe I'm just getting rusty.
>>
>>127854013
>you can only hit level 9 research if you rush it
>you need to go for const9 first
A summon doesn't need to make an entire school viable by itself.

Buff the const9 summons and give construction some more level 7/8 spells and the suggested buffs would fit in fine.

>>127854246
10 D2 mages should be able to summon skeletons faster than a dragon kills them, and the dragons are really expensive.

Setting the iron dragons to attack rear might work but I've never done trample against skellyspam so can't say.
>>
>tfw it's so cold in my new house I have to wear gloves in order to computer.
how the hell do people living in cold3 do shit ever?
>>
>>127854916
an aoe 3 dragon's breath can hit the mages, but i dont know if attack rear would be sufficient enough to make the dragon target mages instead of the chaff in the rear.

If i'm not mistaken 20 AP lets you move up to 20 squares a round so that's 20 squares of skeletons being forced to make defence rolls or get gibbed. I don't know if the trample roll is dependant on the dragon's attack skill either.

There's also the problem of mechnical militia being dependant on PD which is shit, but that's a problem on PD in general. Does anyone know if its possible to lower the cost of PD/change the number of commanders it gives?
>>
>trying out vanarus
>vanabogs are 15 hp battle mages

Okay how do you use them as thugs? I don't think mistform works against spells right? And what are the blood paths for, vanarus doesn't seem to hve any way to get a blood economy going?
>>
>>127855184
I'm fairly certain trampling costs more AP than just moving, but not sure how much.
>>
>>127855273
If you've got blood paths, you've got a blood economy. Not a good one, but you have one. Once you get it going you can summon better and more bloodhunters.
>>
>>127855184
>an aoe 3 dragon's breath can hit the mages, but i dont know if attack rear would be sufficient enough to make the dragon target mages instead of the chaff in the rear.
Me neither. As I said, would need someone to test.

>If i'm not mistaken 20 AP lets you move up to 20 squares a round so that's 20 squares of skeletons being forced to make defence rolls or get gibbed.
Trample seems to be limited to 3 squares per turn or something. Tramplers definitely don't do their full AP as trample.

Trample doesn't appear to be dependent on attack skill, manual just says defense against 10.

>>127855273
>Okay how do you use them as thugs?
Mistform brand vineshield.

Are you sure you want to use cap-only StR expensive mages as thugs, though?

>I don't think mistform works against spells right?
Don't move your thugs into provinces with mages.

>vanarus doesn't seem to hve any way to get a blood economy going?
Sages have 33% blood randoms.
>>
>>127855654
Then what are you supposed to use vanabogs for? They are way too expensive for battlemages and have too much rainbow to cast the high level spells.
>>
holy shit I actually used the wiki for something.
to check if demons can be diseased
>>
>>127858013
Yeah, the wiki actually has some worthwhile pages since the last big push. We should do another one.
>>
>>127857358
Well, the D2 and B2 should be easy enough to find uses for.

I'm not sure exactly how to use the A3 and F1 randoms, but I'd probably leave thugging as a last resort.
>>
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>>127857358
>They are way too expensive for battlemages
>but I want to thug them out anyway
>>
Is UR really that shitty as everyone says?
>>
>>127861390
No.
>>
>>127861465
>>127861390
How so?
>>
>>127860383
>Well, the D2 and B2 should be easy enough to find uses for.
Those are not better uses than thugging

>but I'd probably leave thugging as a last resort.
I wouldn't because most of the magic is easily covered by other national mages and having a force of stealthy cloud trapezing high quality thugs is a very welcome addition to a nation.
>>
>have a fort with roads in a waste province
>i have a commander with 2 map moves and no troops in that province
>the game will only allow me to move 1 province away with him

I thought roads were supposed to remove the movement penalty from provinces?
>>
>>127862084
Roads only cancel the movement penalty from forests, not anything else.
>>
>>127862070
Then go ahead and use your expensive, StR, cap-only, 15hp commanders as thugs i you're that dead-set on it.
>>
>>127861784
With high production, Ur can actually expand incredibly well and snowball off their initial expansion to take more and more provinces. Their foreign recruit mages, while too expensive to serve as lab rats, are buff casters on par with the Panii.
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>>127860383
At 340 gold and slow to recruit, they are too expensive to waste on spamming skeletons or blood hunting though.

Since they are sacred and priests you could get a good bless and thug them, but they are too squishy for that.
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>>127862151
thats weird, the manual just says "negates difficult terrain in province"
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>>127862316
what is the minimum hp for a commander to be viable as a thug?
>>
>>127862671
The manual is very useful, but in many cases it's outdated or just plain wrong.
>>
>>127862316
>15hp
>>127862579
>but they are too squishy for that.

Are you people serious? They are elves.

They'll take on any number of PD easily.

They aren't as numerous as vanjarls but they fill the thug role perfectly.
>>
>>127862671
Don't trust the manual for things other than the basic structural mechanics. Only thing you can trust for sure is the wiki, and even then that only applies to facts because there was some guy who went and wrote in his ignorant opinions as "guides" on some of the nation pages.

But since the wiki is quite incomplete, asking here is the next best thing.
>>
>>127862771
I T D E P EN D S
>>
>>127862497
enkindu shaman are better than Panii in every single way except RP and Enc, and Shaman's have a research malus for some fucking reason and slightly better prot for that single added enc.
>>
>>127862084
>>127862671

You cant even build roads in wastelands.
>>
>>127863082
Aren't Pans Sacred
>>
>>127863424
nope.
>>
>>127863068
on what
>>
>>127862819
thugs need to be able to handle more than PD or a cheap mage with no equip and some chaff will kill them with damage spells.
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>>127863998
Thugs die to mages, period.
Even tartarian is going to die to a few cheap mages.
>>
>>127864195
>spend dozens of gems gearing up a thug/sc
>it gets killed by a few cheap mages without even needing to use gems
>>
>>127862070
>Those are not better uses than thugging
>>127862579
>too expensive to waste on spamming skeletons or blood hunting though
I mean summoning or forging things. Possibly a few major combat spells like Blood Lust/Skeletal Legion/Wailing Winds on the side.

B2A2 are your only mage who can get storm demons without boosters or empowerment, and you only get D1 outside those cap-only mages.
>>
>>127863998
Not really. Thugs kill DP and smaller, unsupported armies. Depending on the thug they might get lucky against mages as well, but that's not their job. Their job is to take out undefended shit so your armies can do the actual fighting without having to take constant detours to conquer provinces and intercept reinforcements.

SCs should be able to handle more than that, but even SCs will often die to a couple properly prepared mages.
>>
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I don't understand what people mean when they say thug. Is it just lingo for an an artifact equipped, non-spellcasting commander? Also I don't know what SC means although I'm guessing spellcaster.
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>>127864789
Thug - cheap with minimal gear, can kill PD or troops without mage support solo.
SC - Super Combatant, expensive with full gear, can kill full army solo.
>>
>>127864789

http://dom4.wikia.com/wiki/Building_thugs_and_SCs
>>
>>127864789
>Is it just lingo for an an artifact equipped
Lord no. Artifacts are way too precious to waste on thugs.

>non-spellcasting commander?
Not necessarily. The most commonly used thug (Bane Lord) is a non-spellcaster, but plenty of popular thugs can cast spells to buff themselves.

A thug is a commander which can, with a minimal amount of equipment (usually just a Vine Shield and a Fire or Frost Brand) take on a virtually limited amount of regular troops, like province defense.

An SC (Super Combatant) is basically a much stronger, more heavily equipped thug that can kill entire armies without the right counter.

The line between a heavy thug and a light SC is very thin, but the main distinction is that a thug is a unit that can get the job done with a minimal gem investment so you don't mind losing them when something goes wrong, while an SC is primarily meant to survive just about anything and cost is less of a concern when equipping them.
>>
Hey Asphodel are you here?
>>
>>127864789
We didn't make a wiki just for plebs like you to not read it.
>>
>star fires are armor negating
>verbose battle log shows that infantry still get to use their protection value against it

Does armor negating just mean the base armor isn't used, but the DRN value is still used?
>>
>>127865797
Yes.
>>
>>127865703
I mean, we kinda did. The wiki is kinda like reading the inspector and testing in that it's something that newer players that actually want to git gud can do, but some people are still going to jump into the game blind and flail about for a bit before realizing that there are other resources available to them.
>>
>>127866106
>The wiki is kinda like reading the inspector
Well those parts are useless and the people adding those big pointless tables are dumb. But we were talking about an actually useful part of the wiki.
>>
>>127866168
>in that it's something that newer players that actually want to git gud can do
I wasn't saying that the wiki just has information form the inspector. I was saying that the wiki is a resource that newer players can use to learn, but some people won't.

You seriously need to work on reading comprehension mate.
>>
Back in dom3, Iron Dragons in some mod (probably CBM, but I played a bunch) were commanders and relatively cheap, and flew, and were tough enough to take on most stuff that wasn't magic, and even tank a bit of magic. They were excellent raiders for the price, and worth bringing to fights. Sure, they got shot up by Mind Hunt and stuff, but they had a solid niche and other const 9 stuff was good for earth nations, too.
>>
>use an army with 70 longbowmen
>they shoot some shitty indie horse tribe cavalry (12 prot)
>each volley kills less than 5 units

What the fuck. Are most ranged units in this game useless or something?
>>
>>127867402
>Use an army with 70 long ranged units
>Fire upon the enemy without being hit back and without your own melee units killing them
>Still kill 5 units per volley

The advantage of ranged units is that they deal damage in addition to the line of melee units. All of the melee units behind the ones fighting are doing nothing, while your ranged units continue to dish out damage. If you have a sufficient mass of ranged units that you can kill enemies with every volley, then you will quickly win the battle.

Also, there are buff spells to make your ranged units better. Anything with any protection (even 12) will mitigate a significant portion of the damage from your bows (longbows should deal 3-4 on average, iirc. I don't feel like mathing the pierce bonus in my head) with crossbows faring a fair bit better. To really win on massed archers, you'll want Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows to supplement them.

Regardless, if their volleys would kill an enemy for each ranged unit, melee would be almost entirely obviated.
>>
>>127867572
70 units killing less than five is kind of pathetic, though. And if you're going to use wind guide and flaming arrows, you should factor in what buffs your opponent could be using.
>>
>>127867572
Yea but it's not exactly hard to make most melee units get in range.3 big blocks, done.

If you use the same amount of gold/resources, a pure melee army would wreck a mixed one and that just makes ranged units too weak.

Sure you can buff them with spells, but your opponent can do the same thing with his melee army.
>>
>trying to make dragon pretenders less shit
>try giving them trample and 20 ap
>attack a level 1 throne
>skeleton spam
>the dragon dies in 3 turns while trampling through the skeletons on the way to the mages

A dragon should not be getting poked to death by skeletons, what the fuck.
>>
>>127867970
Give them recup and put them in the 160 price range.
Bam dragons are viable again, they used to be THE awake expanders but now they're just to pricey to just end up with a ton of afflictions.
>>
>>127867808
>a pure melee army would wreck a mixed one and that just makes ranged units too weak.
But that's not even remotely true.
>>
>>127867728

That's roughly how many would die historically. If we're talking nomadic riders at mid-long range (horse tribe are ranged, so I doubt they were at point blank). Archery was to keep the enemy's head down, not 'get kills'. Wounds force morale checks, not just kills.

If archery did huge damage, then why even bother having melee units. Flaming Arrows and Wind Guide basically do this anyway, to the point that certain nations prioritize getting Arrow Fend up.

>>127867970

4 more points of prot. Maybe increase the length of their weapons for repel purposes (dragons probably got real big claws and teeth, right?), but repel and def get devalued pretty quickly.

Trample is a decent idea, though. Dragons killing things one at a time is bleh. DE gave them a MELEE range breath weapon, too. So they spray flame at things while in melee with them, instead of mysteriously just not using their breath weapon except at range sometimes if you get the scripting right.
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>>127868269

>dragons don't just fly above armies and bathe them in flame/ice/poison gas/etc. while being completely safe in the air

Why is this allowed?
>>
>>127868564

So conans can fight dragons sword to claw, obviously. Are you new to mythology.
>>
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>>127867808
>Yea but it's not exactly hard to make most melee units get in range.3 big blocks, done.

This might be the first time that I've seen a player here that could genuinely be improved by playing against the AI
>>
>>127867808
How did Agincourt go for you, Charles D'Albert?
>>
>>127840535

You pick your fights. Thugs/SC are best against troops and mages eat them up, especially if your enemy scripts against them. Thugs/SC are good way to give some extra power to your big army as the enemy mages wil be (hopefully) shooting at your troops instead.
>>
>>127836527
>>127836242
I was mictlan and was raping both Man (who was a steamshitter anyway) and pythium

It was kind of fun, rest in peace
>>
>>127838003
>http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus
what the hell is left? I don't remember every single nation in the game
>>
I think i might have made dragons too OP.

So i gave them prot 22, length 4 weapons, and made the tail sweep a AOE 2 attack to kill chaff. I also made the dragon breath usable in melee 50% of the time and doubled the AOE.

Removed the damage penalty on the poison breath because 3-4 damage in the first turn isn't going to do anything.

From what i can tell, with a strength of 28, the poison breath was doing 3-4 damage on average for the first tick. Each additional breath will do 3-4 damage for the first tick and i think each tick will stack. An AOE of 16 was wiping out hordes of infantry.

The tail swipe was less impressive. I thought an AOE of 2 would be the target square + each square around it, but nope, it seems to be the target square + one random adjacent square.

I was able to outdps a mage spamming horde of skeletons but that was just one mage and i still ended up with two afflictions. I think i need it to kill skeletons faster and tone down the AOE breath.
>>
Frogs and bats are very cute together!
>>
>>127875319

Poison doesn't affect skeletons. They also resist ice. A fire dragon vs skelespam would probably be a better test.

Also, dragons vs indies is all well and good, but dragons vs player stuff is probably more important for balance concerns.

And you're kinda saying that it's slightly better than an erf snek. Can kill 1 skelespammer but gets afflictions, kills indies. For 200 points i'd probably just take the erf snek.
>>
If Dragons just had recuperation they would be a lot more useful than they currently are. Right now, every battle with indies is a gamble that your dragon gets muted or feebleminded by some random indie unit with a stick, and your pretender is just a big sack of meat.
>>
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Hey guys, this archer lost both his arms, will he still fire his bow?
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>>127877624
Seems like he still will.
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>>127875203

Some shitty UW nations?
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>>127877624

No excuses.
>>
>>127877978
C'tis (Whom have a great starting place away from the clusterfuck) and Pan (no clue)
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>>127853552
Yeah, bullshit. Find a 20 gem mage summon that can fight trogs
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>>127880780
Ten earth elementals or magma children.
>>
Pelagia, this is getting seriously out of hand.

Who /dispel/ here? I have an A5 ready and willing and out of pearls
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>>127877117
yea but im trying to make all the dragons chaff-resistant first.
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>>127881410
A5? How's that going to help?

I think we need to stage an intervention, he's clearly addicted and needs help.
>>
>>127881246
Those aren't mages. Also, they're national summons.
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>>127881738
Anything is possible with enough pearls.

The intervention sounds like a good idea, considering he's such a helpless gem fiend. I'm not sure if I can attend though.
>>
>>127881738
Pretty sure by A5 he meant S5. He's going to run out of slots pretty soon though, and I'm pretty sure the monkfish will be mad if his Eyes get blinded by Pelagia's addiction.
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>>127882158
S is for astral, A is for air.

Just every turn send him helpfull messages like "I'm here if you need to talk" or "Are you sure you need another gem-gen?"
>>
My favorite was still him taking Mother Oak from Pan like 2 turns after Pan had cast it.
>>
>>127882317
>>127882253
I'm "dyslexic" retarded

I will do my best. Anyway, if anyone wants to help me buy some "methadone" just HMU with some pearls
>>
>>127880780
some cheap mages spamming skeletons without needing gems
>>
pelagia has now taken the #2 slot for gem income per turn on the scoregraphs.

it only took 3 gemgens. I think he needs to sitesearch better.
>>
>>127883395
How does he even get 3 gemgens without a decent gem income to begin with.

Is anybody else even trying?
>>
>not empowering your dispeller to S10 as a long term investment

what are you,retarded? it literally saves you dozens of gems in the long run
>>
>>127883657
Maybe if you're dispelling shit every turn.
>>
>>127883395
How do see scoregraph ooga
>>
>>127886538
eyes of god lets me see.

>>127883524
because I did not prioritize enchantment, like he did. I don't know why everyone is surprised by the fact that nexus pelagia is rushing enchantment globals, its literally his entire game plan.
well, that and wish.
>>
>>127887606
Any nations that are looking a bit too strong compared to the others?
>>
>>127881730

Chaff resistance = chaff clearing x prot.

Dragon prot is not 24, so not chaff resistant.

Dragons clear chaff slowly.

DE had great breath weapon that stopped dragons being in melee, prot was a better stat in dom3, and dragons got more prot in DE. So they were great at chaff clearing.

Dragons also have worse magic than snek or bull.. Fire, water, even nature is not as good as E or E/N.

If I was fixing dragons, i'd give them E6 Erf Snek level prot, a 3-square AoE melee breath weapon, either 40 newpathcost or a secondary path (2f1a, 2w1s, 2n1e) a cost reduction, gem generation in their primary flavour, and recuperation (or regen for the nature dragon, since it can cast that spell once you get the research anyway). But i'm of the opinion that Gods should be Godly, and not shit, so.
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>>127865342
Yes fellow skeletons
>>
>>127890538
Regeneration does not heal permanent afflictions
>>
>>127865342
Whoops forgot name
>>
>>127890538
>If I was fixing dragons, i'd give them E6 Erf Snek level prot, a 3-square AoE melee breath weapon, either 40 newpathcost or a secondary path (2f1a, 2w1s, 2n1e) a cost reduction, gem generation in their primary flavour, and recuperation (or regen for the nature dragon, since it can cast that spell once you get the research anyway).
So basically you want them to be ridiculously overpowered. Gotcha.

>But i'm of the opinion that Gods should be Godly, and not shit, so.
Pretenders aren't gods, m8. See also: All those human mage pretenders.
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So, how do I stop this crazyness?

Air elementals+iron warriors?

and then have a few commanders with smashers +ring of lightning resist?
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>>127893037
Air elementals are pretty reliable if you can get decent numbers of them.
>>
>>127890538
How many of the God chassis live up to being godly? Because your description of the power level you'd want dragons to be seems above what chassis are at the moment, which would be a really fun level to bolster all Gods power to (I, for one, would definitely like to see a mod which did that)
>>
>>127892509
Our border is a bit close to my capital, would you mind backing off a bit, I don't see a reason why fellow undead should worry about eachother.
>>
>>127892480

Regen greatly reduces the chances of getting afflictions in the first place, but you could give it recup + regen, or whatever.

>>127892968

Eh. What I described, 4 skelespammers will kill it. So will MR-negate spam, or elemental damage of not-it's-flavour. Some kinds of sacreds won't, but other kinds will. It still can't fight out of Dom, because limb/head hits.

A human mage with 5A will outperform it with research, to huge extents. A dragon is a combat pretender. It should be good at combat. If it's less good at combat than like, 2 indie mages, that's not really good design.
>>
>>127893272
I'll wreck u m8
>>
>>127893272

Friendly reminder that doing anything but removing skeletons is enabling them.
>>
>>127893392
>What I described, 4 skelespammers will kill it. So will MR-negate spam, or elemental damage of not-it's-flavour.
The same goes for just about every single unit in the game, including all other pretenders.

What you're describing is something that's a much better expander than an Earth Snake (which is already much better than pretty much everything else atm), while also being more mobile, a less shitty combatant in actual fights, with better magic variety and a gemgen on top of it.

You're completely fucking mental if you think that's not OP as fuck.
>>
>>127893249

The bless chassis and forger chassis are okay. They make sacreds badass and then cast globals, or enable your national mages with boosters, both of which is pretty badass. Combat pretenders, though, suck nearly universally. Hugely expensive, and only useful to fight indies mostly. Except for a few like erf snek that can expand well for a reasonable price. And those are often less than useful against enemies, even if inside dominion and before heavy magic use.

DE diversified most chassis, so gods could more easily afford paths if they were primarily casters but also had domsummons if they weren't physically imposing, so there was an argument, albeit minor, for taking them awake. And combat chassis had slightly easier magical access and all were actually good at combat. You could take more pretenders without actively nerfing yourself, and you never felt like your god was a waste of points or useless unless you really screwed up and added pointless paths or something.
>>
>>127867970
Trample gives fatigue equal to encumbrance for every square trampled. Skelespam produces chaff to get trampled forever.
The dragon probably trampled until it passed out, then the skeletons hit it 24 times a turn until the accumulated crits killed it.
Trample isn't really a good trait unless the unit also has 0 enc.
>>
>>127893796
Allowing everyone to do everything isn't diversification. It's pretty much the opposite.
>>
>>127867970
>attack a throne province unsupported
>be surprised when you get wrecked

PEBKAC
>>
>>127893713

Eh, Titan chassis geared and with the right buff spells will walk through all those things. Even quite a bit of skelespam.

And i'm describing something that gets mauled by significant numbers of national units, and not just giants, either. And by spells that are quite low in research. All it does is wreck indie face, and have a good chance of taking level 1 thrones, and taking on poorly set up armies inside it's own dominion. None of which are crazy for something that costs you 350 design points BASE (200, and -150 for being non-dormant). E6 earth snake prot might be a bit much, e4 is probably fine since it has strong melee damage so it won't get mobbed as much by indies.

The Earth Snake is good because earth is a good path, because it's prot + fear means it can expand easily, and it is quite cheap for what you get. I don't think 'handles expansion for you, and then is an earth mage for the rest of the game' is a good baseline for combat pretenders.
>>
>>127893913

Well, for a start, each individual thing slotting into it's own little role is false diversity/complexity, in that it seems complex/diverse but is actually less complex/diverse.

Secondly, something (a pretender god) becoming more diverse meaning it gained skills or abilities outside it's existing skills or abilities is simple english. Misunderstanding that meaning takes a hell of a lot of autism.
>>
>>127893392
>What I described, 4 skelespammers will kill it.
Skellyspam is absurdly efficient at dealing with single powerful units. 4 skellyspammers killing a unit which isn't specifically built to deal with skeletons isn't unusual at all.

The pretender you described has the paths of a titan and the slots of a titan at a similar cost on top of being able to SC with minimal gear.

I wouldn't mind having all pretenders be at that level, but that's far above the current standard for pretender strength.

>>127894113
>Titan chassis geared and with the right buff spells will walk through all those things. Even quite a bit of skelespam.
If you're allowing gear and buffs, so will your dragon.
>>
>>127894113
> I don't think 'handles expansion for you, and then is an earth mage for the rest of the game' is a good baseline for combat pretenders.
Have you ever played Dominions? Serious question, because I don't think you have.

The Earth Snake is one of the most popular pretenders right now for a reason. Turning Dragons into Earth Snakes + free AOW attacks + Flying + Regeneration + gemgen + Titan-tier magic is completely retarded.

You just want a pretender that's the best at everything, which is NOT what pretenders are supposed to be. You want a god-tier expander? There's a pretender for that. You want something with lots of pretender slots and good buff magic so you can play SC? There's a pretender for that. You want a big fat bless and don't much care about combat? There's a pretender for that. You want something that's a better expander than the best expander in the game, while also giving you a solid SC chassis, high survivability and top-tier magic? Fuck off.
>>
>>127894885
>pretender slots
equipment slots*
>>
>>127894470

>paths of a titan and slots of a titan

It has the slots of a titan when it's in human form, where it doesn't have the 100+ hp or size a titan has. 10hp != 150hp. False equivalency.

Most of the time you shouldn't take a titan god. They're most often (nearly only) used as a bless chassis. Judging things by gods people don't take (I was mostly referring to Tartarians, and things like Telkhines and Melqarts) is pretty shitty design. Also, a false equivalency.

>If you're allowing gear and buffs, so will your dragon.

Okay. The things the dragon can buff itself with that make literally any difference are Body Ethereal, Resist Magic/Iron Will, Liquid Body/Temper Flesh, Regen, Soul Vortex. Mistform gets popped by anything that can harm it in the first place (magic, heavy hits). It's base prot means Ironskin/Invuln are largely pointless. Quickness might help, might not. Fire shield likewise - chaff clearing is not something that dragon design has a problem with. Those are all different paths, at varying levels of research, so the dragon probably can put one on itself.

It has a head slot and two misc slots in dragon form. The Titan has full slots in Titan form. The Titan also benefits more from buffs, and likely has better buff paths for it's needs. You can also summon Titan chassis, and have to Wish for Dragons.

With gear and buffs, things favour the Titan (not that people take Titan gods for combat, nor should they). The Dragon's strength, as all combat pretenders' strength, is in the earlygame, before counters to it are online (and nearly every nation has some form of counter to it), and it's further restricted by needing to fight inside friendly dom. Which is huge. Defensive fighting doesn't get you land and is a lot weaker than offensive fighting.
>>
>>127894450
>Well, for a start, each individual thing slotting into it's own little role is false diversity/complexity
What does this have to do with Dominions? There are alternatives for literally every role a pretender could play. Just because the Earth Serpent is undercosted doesn't mean you should just buff everything into oblivion.

>it seems complex/diverse but is actually less complex/diverse
And yet, it's infinitely better than allowing everyone to do everything.

>Secondly, something (a pretender god) becoming more diverse meaning it gained skills or abilities outside it's existing skills or abilities is simple english.
The diversity of the game as a whole takes precendence over the diversity of any single pretender. Maximising the diversity of the pretenders ruins the diversity of the game, because everyone would just pick the one pretender that's the best regardless of what their intended role is.

>Misunderstanding that meaning takes a hell of a lot of autism.
Oh yeah, start accusing people who don't agree with your nonsense of being autistic. That REALLY helps your argument.
>>
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http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus

Just two more and we're full! C'tis and Pan are left.
>>
>>127895095
>The Dragon's strength, as all combat pretenders' strength, is in the earlygame, before counters to it are online
Exactly. That's it's strength. That's what it's for.

What you don't understand is that's not a problem. It has its role, it doesn't need three other roles. It doesn't need to be better than an Earth Snake plus a Titan. What's next, are you going to complain you can't expand efficiently with an awake Crone?
>>
>>127894885

You don't actually know why people take Earth Serpents, so it's pretty amusing that you're saying I don't play dominions. People take the Earth Serpent because it's cheap and reliably expands. It also provides earth magic on a durable chassis, but it's utility in early wars etc is completely nonexistent. You do not take it against anyone but the scrubbiest scrub and expect it to do anything.

It's also cool that you think it's ideal for the Pretender God of a nation to perform only one function for the nation, for a limited time, and don't know anything about how combat pretenders used to be far more viable (both dormant SCs and awake monsters) in dom3 (and it's many mods), and having ultra-specialized gods is less of a feature and more of a bug. 90% of the Titan chassis are actually irrelevant - there is never a design or build for which they are optimal. There is almost no circumstance where you should ever take any expander other than an earth snake. It is almost cheaper to buy an extra path on the earth snake than to take a different chassis. Combat Pretenders only exist where you're playing against an idiot. I have used them, knowing they sucked, and managed to use them against idiots, while knowing if they know anything at all about the game, that combat pretender is dead.

That Dragon design can do three things. Take out indies, fight extremely early or shitty armies and not just die, and have some midgame and lategame utility via it's paths. It sure as hell is a replacement for most of the Titan chassis - because they fucking SUCK. It doesn't even replace the earth snake - if you want scales more than you want a big flying douche who dies to enemy magic (and there's every chance you do), the earth snake STILL expands for cheaper than the dragon. And just as (or even more) reliably.
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>>127895453

>awake crone

So you take awake crones a lot, do you
>>
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>>127895881
>People take the Earth Serpent because it's cheap and reliably expands.
THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT, YOU UNBELIEVABLE RETARD.

It does one thing really well, and that's it. And it's STILL the most popular pretender in the game right now. You want to give a Dragon expansion power that's even better than the Earth Snake on top of also giving it the magic diversity and combat power of a Titan AND YOU SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. What is even wrong with your brain for you to think like that?

Dragons were relatively popular before the Earth Snake was introduced and started doing what they did for a lot cheaper. I definitely agree that the Earth Snake is underpriced as fuck, but making Dragons literally better than everything else is a completely fucking retarded answer to that.

>m-muh Dom3
In case you weren't aware, we're not talking about Dom3.
>>
>>127895269

Autism is a verb on domg, get over yourself.

>even though you were specifically talking about the abilities of individual pretenders, when you said diversity you meant the whole game's total scope, not those individual pretenders' abilities!

Seems reasonable.

>stop buffing things! Dragons being better than shitty pretenders but not necessarily better than earth snake means it's op

So making dragons competitive with pretenders people actually take is bad. We should be balancing the Dragon to the pretenders that only noobs and people doing some niche strategy take.

Or to pretenders Imprisoned for a bless. That's the standard for awake combat pretenders.
>>
>>127893494
Just because Asphodel has a few monkeys in their undead circus that aren't undead, doesn't mean we share the same ideals.

I'll regard Ashpodel as my little adopted kid brother who has seen the light.
>>
>>127896580
>Dragons being better than shitty pretenders but not necessarily better than earth snake means it's op
If you honestly think this
>>127890538
>If I was fixing dragons, i'd give them E6 Erf Snek level prot, a 3-square AoE melee breath weapon, either 40 newpathcost or a secondary path (2f1a, 2w1s, 2n1e) a cost reduction, gem generation in their primary flavour, and recuperation (or regen for the nature dragon, since it can cast that spell once you get the research anyway).

is "not necessarily better than earth snake", please stop talking. You obviously haven't actually played Dominions. I mean damn. That's some masterwork bastard sword level shit right there.

Just because the Earth Snake is overpowered for its price doesn't mean making everything else better than it is a good idea.
>>
>>127895095
>It has the slots of a titan when it's in human form, where it doesn't have the 100+ hp or size a titan has. 10hp != 150hp. False equivalency.
It can still use those slots for boosters, magic pen, and other useful items. Slots for SC gear are a different matter, for reasons I'll get into in a bit.

>SC potential
It has less slots, yes. However, you've given it a lot of the benefits from those slots built-in.

It gets a better brand with AoE3 breath and AoE1 tail sweep, plus already has extremely good armor at 26 protection. Dragon has flying already, which most chassis need boots to get. It also doesn't have to deal with encumbrance from armor, which reduces the reinvig you need.

You're missing the shield slot and the ability to swap out gear. That's a bit annoying, but it only makes it a little worse than titans. Nearly as good at lategame SC duty as a titan is still very good.

>The Titan also benefits more from buffs, and likely has better buff paths for it's needs
W2S1, N2E1 are fairly standard titan paths. F2A1 aren't great buff paths, but an AoE3 fire attack is very strong.

What kind of titans get better buff paths?

The protection buffs do help titans more, but that's a very small subset of buff spells.

>You can also summon Titan chassis, and have to Wish for Dragons.
It's completely irrelevant when talking about taking it as a pretender, but that's wrong. There are no spells which summon titans.
>>
>>127896502

Did you miss the part where the earth serpent is cheaper? And can have it's prot buffed further than the dragon's, making it better against heavy cav and the like? And awake pretenders don't have the 150 design points of dormant, so you're losing important scales, not dump scales, for every 40 points you spend on them?

Dragons were popular because they were good in dom3 and people liked them. The meta was also for higher domscore so people felt it cost less to give them awe than what it actually cost. They were never good. Bull and the like were far better. Dragons dying in expansion was extremely common.

If the Dragon is worse than the earth serpent and costs more, we're back to 'why take it'. The answer is, as people have realized, 'don't take it'. If you think the earth serpent needs to cost 200 design points or whatever, sure. Then we start looking at the Bull, the Wyrm, that weird scorpion tailed giant griffin thing with 18 base prot, etc. Most of whom are borderline in effectiveness (in many cases, simply taking extra prod scales and a different, dormant god will do better than them), who won't necessarily see play just because the earth serpent is gone, but are STILL better than the dragon as it currently stands. Penny-ante changes like longer claws will not actually change anything for the dragon.

Judging pretenders by other pretenders that no-one takes is bad design. It's just dumb, and not going to change anything.
>>
Really, the only thing dragons really need is recuperation (should be mandatory for expanders anyway) and a slight cost reduction. Bring the cost of the earth snake up to their level as well and Bob's your uncle, the entire problem is solved.
>>
>>127895881
If you have the bulls or the boar, and do not intend to expand underwater (or want to use cold scales) you take those over the snake.

The snake is only so popular because I think literally EVERY nation gets it, whereas the others are more exclusive.
>>
Reminder to watch yourselves around elves.
>>
>>127897308
>Did you miss the part where the earth serpent is cheaper?
You didn't even read my post.

>Dragons were popular because they were good in dom3 and people liked them.
You didn't even play Dominions 4 before the Earth Serpent.

>who won't necessarily see play just because the earth serpent is gone
They're seeing play even WITH the Earth Snake. Hell, even dragons see (limited) play, just look at Xibalba wrecking Mictlan with a dragon.

>but are STILL better than the dragon as it currently stands
That's arguable since flying and an AoE attack adds a lot more than you seem to think, but even if its true, making dragons ridiculously OP is not a valid answer to this.

>Judging pretenders by other pretenders that no-one takes is bad design.
Which "pretenders that no-one takes" would you be referring to here?
>>
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I just want to call this guy out for being awesome. I have never had the class to admit defeat.
>>
Dragons could probably stand to be slightly dropped in cost, but as things stand they're already pretty good.
>>
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So any requests for the song lyrics I post next time I absolutely crush one of my many opponents?

I was thinking Justin Timberlake - Lovestoned
>>
>>127897369
What about giving all pretenders a limited kind of recuperation which is slower than normal (or dependent on dominion strength)?
>>
>>127899680
It can't be done with normal modding. Event modding could theoretically do it though.
>>
>>127899680
I don't think that's such a bad idea. Even regular Recuperation would be acceptable IMO. It's not something taht gives any kind of straight-up advantage and won't suddenly turn regular pretenders into guys you want to have taking hits, but it does keep the pretenders from being an unusable mess after getting hit a couple times. It would remove a bit of the risk from options like casting Eyes of God and Mind Hunting though.
>>
>>127898023

A lot of Titan and Monster chassis never see play except as a curiosity. A lot of rainbow and titan chassis get picked when they shouldn't. Some immobiles rarely or never see use (the idols etc). Even when people pick a Wyrm or whatever, it's generally not a good choice on their part. Non-bless Titans and rainbows used for any other purpose other than making boosters for a path that the nation gets natively but not high enough to open up a buff spell like Flaming Arrows or Fog Warriors is generally a waste of design points.

If you want to be reductive and say that PGs should only be useful for one limited thing, you end up with a 'best at' for each of those single roles, and then a howling wasteland of suboptimal chassis. If you instead have multirole chassis, like DE and to a lesser extent CBM had, it makes more chassis viable. If Great White Bull costs roughly the same as an Earth Serpent, so what? If Earth Serpent is cheaper but only expands, but great white bull has three paths that increase it's midgame utility while also potentially being a booster forger, but costs more, and there's a Titan that is cheaper than the bull, you end up with actual choices to make.

For the point cost of a dragon, giving it the ability to reliably kill indies and also do as much magic as a titan with less good path choices (when you can't set it dormant like a titan, if you want to use it's expander utility, and F, W, or N aren't ideal - E/S or A are generally the booster paths people want) is not crazy at all compared to the things people actually take and the uses they are put to. Earth Serpent is cheaper, expands reliably, and has 2E. Titans you can choose the flavour you want, and get 2 in the path you want to boost. Blah blah. Saying the Wyrm, a pretender that gets picked maybe one game in three by one nation, should be competitive with the Dragon, is saying the Dragon should suck.
>>
>>127900115
You obviously think that the only way for something to not suck is for it to be overpowered. That's retarded, but fine, be that way. Go make your dragonwank mod.
>>
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I'm tired, guys.
>>
>>127895350
Are you the admin, Gath?

Please, don't end it prematurely like that faggot before.
>>
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=domgeagame

just need one more.
>>
>>127900493

You 'obviously' like ad hominem. That's retarded, but I guess so is arguing anything on /domg/. People like you are why there are so many 'balance mods' for dom4 that don't actually change the meta in any way and therefore don't see use.
>>
>>127903202
Have you made your mod yet?
>>
>>127901910
I dun get it
>>
>>127902854
I hope you're ready for turn after turn of angry ranting!
>>
>>127888791
you know, nobody has asked me that yet. you'd really think that they would.

answer: yes, there is.
>>
>>127906791
Name them pls
>>
>>127876026
But they have fuck all worth building around. What can you possibly do with them?
>>
>>127895350

Fine, I'll take the snakes. Now someone take the [s]monstergirls[/s] Pans.
>>
>>127906893
Are you even in AY? Not that I don't want it posted, but if the peeps in AY need the help of someone not even in the game . . .

Damn
>>
>>127902145
Yep. And you don't have to worry about that, trust in your greatest ally.
>>
ded
>>
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>>
>>127914047
Is that picture based on something?
>>
>>127906893
>>127909929
Agartha meets the criteria
>>
>>127915364
Anime about highschool boys.
>>
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>>127915364
Dunno but i have a SMAC version of it.
>>
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>>127915364
>>127915848

Cromartie High School
>>
>>127915848
An excellent comedy about a bunch of thugs, in the more traditional meaning of the world. Also featuring Freddy Mercury.
>>
Is there a reason AVG is telling me that Dominions4.exe is a trojan horse?
>>
>>127917265
AVG is dumb.
>>
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus

Sorry for the endless shilling, but we only need one more player.

There's got to be some goatfucker out there willing to join as Pan!
>>
Does Disease Healer allow your unit to survive the diseasing of the rod of the leper king?
>>
>>127918075
The Rod of the Leper King will never stop Diseasing the wielder. Just put it on a Mound King, the undead don't mind disease.
>>
>>127918075
Regeneration and a way to guarantee being in a battle every few turns does.
>>
>>127917265
>still using the worst antivirus ever made
>>
Can anyone give me some advice on doing research?

Lets say i have some of my key army buff spells are on level 4 of some school. Do i rush there immediately, or do i actually diversify and get 1-2 levels in other techs before focusing on my main one?
Are there perhaops some schools which are considered mandatory to get to level 1-2 due to some extremely important spells? Which would these be for each path?

Also, is there any point researching in more than 1 school at once, or you just focus 1 school and just manage overflow when you are about to level it up?
>>
Anyone have the link for Oeridia? I'm in Stalewarriors and trying to do turns from another computer.
>>
>>127922034
Get key stuff first
>>
>>127922034
To answer your questions backwards, if you put all the research into one and then the other, you get the former faster than if you put half and half.

Unless there is a spell you're wanting to cast, you don't need the research. You only need the research the turn before the battle yu want to use it in or turn before you want to cast/summon whatever it is. If something is key, get it first, but be mindfull of what other spells you might want to use, and that each research level costs the total amount it took to get to the previous level from 0 and a bit more.
>>
>>127922628
>>127922816
k, another question: is there anywhere i can check precise values of spell effects?
Like there's Alteration 1 Earth Might, and then theres Enchantment Strength of Giants. I see the difference in AoE, but i dont see the amount of strength the spells actually give. Does the effect scale with path level? If yes, how exactly?
Is there any place where such data can be looked up? If not, where is it stored in the game files? I assume its in some readable format, considering the way mods work.
>>
>>127923781
Honestly I've just used testing it in game, now normally with the debug mod. There probably is a better way, yes.
>>
>>127923781
>>127924976
Though, that's assuming you're using the inspector and in game spell descriptions, which between them get most the details, but not ones such as how much strength or other bonuses are.
>>
>>127925194
The manual has it.
>>
>>127923781
>>127924976

The manual and the inspector have that information (mostly the inspector). Links in the OP.

(that said, all strength buffs like that are the same - you'll note they have the same tag in inspector).
>>
>>127925194
Yeah i am. It seems the buff effects that improve a certain stat (such as the +strengh ones i mentioned) just dont have precise descriptions anywhere. Oh well, i guess testing it is then.

>>127925868
Holy fucking shit, the manual actually has the exact values... and its just +4 strength. Alright, good to know, +4 strength certainly doesnt feel like a game changer, more like just an ok buff.
>>
>>127926776
It's significant because protection reduces by a flat amount, so if you go from dealin an average of 2 damage to 6, that's a massive increase.
>>
>>127926776
Try the manual.
>>
>>127927105
Yeah, the problem is that i'm playing a race of Big Guys so the buff will not make that much of a difference.

That said, which buffs would be most efficient for an army mostly composed of 4+ size units?
>>
>>127927614
Which one in particular? Fewer stronger units generally benefit more from defensive buffs like body ethereal and ironskin.
>>
>>127917601
PA
N
WA
S
RI
GH
T!
>>
>>127928391
Nah. Pan was undershitter garbage.
>>
>>127928391
Pan, please stop trying to force your shitty meme.
>>
>>127927958
Ashdod. My pretender is immobile so no buffs from there. My mages have access to F2, S2, E2 and D2. Possibly 3 if i buy the premium ones.
>>
>>127927614
Fog warriors, army of lead/gold, body ethereal, weapons of sharpness, legions of steel, wave warriors is super fucking good, etc.
>>
>>127930307
Jokes on you I'm actually Kailasa and still getting random bits of fun out of the game
>>
>>127930492
Antimagic followed by Stygian skin, since you have native disease healers, isn't to awful.
>>
>>127930492

Body Ethereal is really fucking nasty on giants.

Really, though, with Ashdod your dudes don't need many buffs, so you can concentrate on de-buffing/killing the enemy. Earth Meld from the E2s (after Summon Earthpower), Shadow Blast from the D2s, Falling Fires from the F2s (after Summon Firepower), Stellar Cascades from the S2s.
>>
>>127931461
Wait wut, i dont remember any Ashdod disease healers. I even checked the summons section, nothing there either.

>Stygian skin
This is a self-buff though, at least as far as i see, and it also needs W1 to which i have no direct access whatsoever.
>>
>>127934180
>Wait wut, i dont remember any Ashdod disease healers. I even checked the summons section, nothing there either.
He's probably confusing it with Gath/Hinnom, who have rec-anywhere healers.

You do have a healer summon though, the Arel.

>This is a self-buff though, at least as far as i see, and it also needs W1 to which i have no direct access whatsoever.
Stygian Rains will apply that buff to everything on the field (including the enemy), but it still requires water magic. You could get access to W/D via Spectres, but I don't think Stygian Rains is important enough to make that a priority.
>>
>>127933821
fireball is fine too, honestly. It's particularly good with stellar cascades because the heat shock causes decent fatigue damage in a larger aoe.
>>
What's the easiest way to find the terrain preference for each nation?
>>
>>127934804
I was actually confusing ashdod/Gath.
And I meant skeletal legion sorry.
>>
So people keep saying that a Bane Lord is the gold standard for thug chassis. What are some alternatives? Not everyone has death access.
>>
>>127940339
What nation are you and what paths do you have access to?
>>
>>127940689
I play abysia a lot, mostly in EA. But I'd also like to know about genetic options available to other nations.
>>
>>127941767
Well then the answer is just "It depends" because what you use for thugging depends on your nation and magic access.
>>
>>127941906
Alright, we'll start with abysia then. Lots of fire access, a bit of blood and astral. I usually give my pretender decent earth access as well.
>>
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What are the odds?
>>
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Apparently I need to start more games since this general is still pretty dead
>>
Should I just go ahead and start? Pan's always a shit, honestly.
>>
>>127948865
Sure?
>>
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>>127949310
Fuck it, then.

IT BEGINS
>>
>>127949861
OH SNAP SON
>>
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Here's the pretenders.

And I started out on a fucking asteroid this time. Not one of the other worlds, a goddamn asteroid. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing.
>>
>>127950960
If you haven't moved your screen before you took the screensho, you're utterly boned if Patala started in the nature plane, which I think they always do.
>>
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>>127951242
I'm sure we can get along with a few snakes. We're practically family!
>>
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>>127949861

> Blood Magic Bonus: 30

Horrors for everyone!
>>
>>127951907
I don't even get your avatarfagging, normally there's some discernable reason, but Ed was just so bleh.
>>127952136
Dibs.
>>
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>>127952492
How can you not love Ed? He's so hilariously incompetent in each and everything he does - total useless moe.

Corbyn's just plain boring.
>>
>>127952746
He wasn't particularly competent, but the news played up that aspect because otherwise he was just a bland middle of the road left wing politician, which is really uninteresting.

Corbyn being just a normal person with fairly left wing views is great, you can practically hear the spindoctors rotating in their chairs trying to find some way to demonise his normalness with some hilarious results.
>>
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>>127953172
I don't know man, he just gives off an this aura of awkwardness. I love it - I seriously get a good, hearty chuckle every time I see a picture of him.
>>
>>127954130
I don't think he's going for a peace sign there.
>>
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>>127954291
It's funnier to imagine that he is.
>>
>>127954720
What the fuck? Is this guy Canadian? I can only imagine a Canadian being this awkward. Brits have class. They do all their fucked up shit behind closed doors or in college. Like fucking dead pigs.
>>
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>>127955498
Nope, British descendant of Jews (hence the avatarfagging).
>>
>>127956072
That awkward attempt at a smile. He's more alien than mitt romney.
>>
Hope you folks ready for elfaggotry
>>
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>>127956759
Well, we've got a smart goy here.
>>
>>127956072
Ok, now that I've googled him and seen some other photos of him, I agree with you. I can't help but laugh at this dude. It's like he has no idea how to human.
>>
I'd think that you guys would be happy to have someone autistic in politics.
>>
>>127957858
I am happy. Shits fuckin gold.
>>
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So I can't actually tell which province the throne is in.
>>
>>127960803
Other one
>>
>>127960803

Throne marker is always up and left from the province. So you're currently attacking the throne.
>>
>>127962791
Good, it's a retreating scout.
>>
Checking interest for an EA game........
>>
>>127966257
Do it.
>>
>>127966439
I'm thinking archea.....what do you think?
>http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/archaea-early-age-release
>>
>>127967536
Fuck no, do a normal game.
>>
>>127967602
map?
>>
>>127967703
Something for 8-12 players, not like 29.
>>
So how's NoWeebs going?
>>
>>127967536
Another one? At least wait until All Yesterdays finishes up.
>>
>>127968268
What happened in AY btw? I remember that Xibalba rushed Mictlan and then Machaka somehow beat him up. I also remember reading that Pelagia put up a bunch of gem globals and still isn't topping the charts. Given that Agartha is supposed to be winning, I assume that he ate some folks too?
>>
>http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=eadomg
>>
>>127969783
While slightly better than vanilla dawn of dominions (it gave Caelum extra provinces, since Caelum used to be UP and gave Vanheim of all nations a perfect corner start, among other things) the nature of the map makes the starts naturally imbalanced. If an aquatic nation starts at the eastern sea, for instance, it's basically completely fucked
>>
>>127890538
how would you allow dragons to clear skeletons fast?

also does anyone know how enlarge mechanics work? it seems to be an extra +3 str per size level, and a 25% hp boost per level?
>>
Several more twists to our lengthy feud, Ulm you steel clad wastrel.
>>
>>127972798
Post battle reports plz
>>
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>>127973005
Honestly, I'm lucky my druids didn't get fucked by the flaming arrows. In the end, the boars that survived the volleys did the most work.
>>
>>127973404
21 mages + pretender vs 2 mages + pretender
My goodness, and you say the boars did the work?
>>
>>127973486
believe it or not, but the mages didn't seem to perform quite as well, although one did through down some legions of steel.
>>
Do you guys think that allowing cavalry to have 3 misc slots to make up for their missing foot slot is a good idea?

What about allowing some pretenders that only have 2 misc slots to have more misc slots?
>>
That is surprising, given that druids can make the sky fall on people's heads. I would think that with Gifts from Heaven they could clear 30 squares of enemies per turn (90 units!) - and that would be with an inefficient 1-1 communion too.
>>
>>127952136
what does taht bonus even do?
>>
>>127973771
I don't think it'd really break anything, but I also don't think it'll make a huge difference. Cavalry that was already good will get slightly better (though most elven thugs don't even want to use their misc slots)

>>127973856
All blood spells are 30% cheaper. All magic bonuses work that way.
>>
>>127973771
Cavalry not having feet is fucking stupid in the first place.
Horses don't stop you from wearing shoes.
>>
>>127973835
I'm gonna need to try that
>>
>>127973920
I think that the idea is that the advantage granted by the boots is tied to the wearer walking on them - boots that make you run fast don't have an impact when you're riding instead of running.

>>127973961
What did you have them scripted to cast instead?
>>
>>127973985
stellar cascades. Maybe I was just looking in the wrong places over the course of the battle but enemy fatigue didn't seem to be that high before they died to trample.
I'm guessing power of the spheres on all the E2 druids would be the quickest way to get some Gifts from Heaven casters up.
>>
>>127974217
What? No, dude, just use Summon Earthpower. It gives more E and reinvig. Also, your E1 druids can still cast it if you make a communion. Put half of the E1 druids as slaves and the other half as masters, have all of the masters cast Summon Earthpower and have one of them cast Power of the Spheres, and then call the masters can spam Gifts from Heaven forever.
>>
>>127974370
that makes sense, I'll definitely try it
>>
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On the other side of war-torn Europe. This isn't as impressive, I admit, but I decided to post it in case people are curious about how things are going.
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>>127974546
>the armies with more mages are kicking the shit out of the armies with fewer mages in every conflict
M A G E S U P P O R T
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>get placed in the best plane for me in Flatus

Oh, this is a nice feeling.
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>>127974631
My scripting wasn't the best, either. Too many mages got fagged out too early. I've tried to improve it for the next battle.
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>>127974546
All those flying units
Are you having them split up to raid and then bringing them together for bigger fights like the one you posted? I can't think of another reason to have that many flying commanders, since they don't make particularly good back line diving thugs.
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>>127974546
>>127973404
come on Europa, get your shit together

Agartha probably owns most of Asia by now
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>>127974762
Yes, and I was raiding Rome too. Production is quite nice on Arco for pumping out those fliers.
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Does anyone know how to find out the effects of holy avenger? i mean, is the AOE 1 unit or 1 square? How much damage does it do? etc. Manual says nothing.
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>>127975265
70 gold each though - and you're paying for sacred status without being able to bless them if you don't have a flying priest to go with them. I mean, don't get me wrong, I totally get that they're strong and great for raiding given their high prot and lances, but they're definitely not cheap.

Then again, you're using engineers instead of oreiads which is 125/turn instead of 203/turn for mage spending, so that's one additional wind rider per turn right there. I guess I use arco pretty differently from you in general.
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>>127975326
as far as I can remember its basically similar to blood vengeance though I think it has its own set dmg instead of hitting for an equal amount.
no idea how much that is though
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>>127975326
AOE 1 means 1 square, AOE 2 means 2 squares (that have to be touching?) and so on.

So it can hit up to 6 hobbits or a single giant.
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>>127975326
>>127975774
Someone needs to test it and put it on the wiki.
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>>127975579
I do love Oreiads too, but I needed more mages casting storm power urgently. Generally I recruit one or two oreiads in the early game for site searching, since thwir high paths aren't as useful until you've researched something to cast, then start recruiting a core of mage engineers before switching into mid game oreiads. A dozen or so mage engineers can do all sorts of useful things, like magma bolts and quill forging, and eventually some of them willbeable to cast RoS.

Pegasus riders are great raiders, but I've found they are also very useful at stopping minotaurs from trampling my front lines. Pegasi fighting minotaurs, pretty fucking archaic.
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>trying to mod sites to remove scale effects
>#incscale just adds an extra scale effect instead of modifying the current one
>if i use #clear, that removes EVERYTHING, and the inspector doesn't include things like cluster values so i can't properly recreate the site

Any ideas?
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>>127976517
strictly speaking, bellerophon the original pegasus rider fought the Chimera
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>>127975774
yes but the aoe is not listed anywhere
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>>127976752
Can you just counterbalance the existing scale? Like +1 Prod +1 sloth?
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Remember to eat your cucumbers, /domg/!
Who needs anyone else except a kappa to invade water provinces?
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I want to do a scripting challenge where both sides are given the same army and fight it out in a best of two, where they each attack and defend. I wanted to involve mages, since magic scripting is more interesting than just doing troop stuff that takes advantage of the game AI, but every system that I can think of for doing so is likely to see the exact same spells cast for every army. Any suggestions?
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Are there any plans for a COE4 Wiki or better yet an inspector lkie the DOM4 one?
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>>127968471
As far as I know Xibalba got attacked by both TNN and Machaka and a few turns later he went AI.
Atlantis also went AI after being attacked by squids.
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Dom5 made in Unreal Engine 4 when

I would pay seriously so much money to see their games implemented in such a grand scale, without dumbing it down.
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>>127977832
yea but then it will look like this :

increases growth
decreases growth/increases sloth
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>>127968471
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Any ideas on how to make shitty magic items better? Stuff like midget's revenge, mistletoe helmet, etc?
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>>127985262
Honestly, I think the only way to properly balance the items is to remove 80% of them, and nobody wants that.

There are simply too many items and not enough niches for them to fill. You can get some mileage out of the "well, X is good if you can't get Y" mindset, but beyond that there's always going to be a "best choice" and making underused items better isn't going to change that. At most, you'll end up making them better than the current best choice, which only shifts the issue without actually solving it.
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>>127985476
I am not the guy you are answering to, but I can say that you don't know shit about logic behind Construction school.
All items have their place in a certain research level, so by scratching it you can have some access to some effects deoending on which paths you possess. It's not like game needs ONE FUCKING ITEM for a certain purpose in ONE path on a SOME research level. That is just stupid. We need, for example, wall crashing item on 4th and 6th level, and in 2-3 different paths/crosspaths, with the certain cost for it. And you just asking to have 1 fucking item on the certain level with the certain paths and I bet you want it multipurpose on top of that.
And moreover I forgot about which slot that item is using, it's very important. For example, in the game we have 3 supply-providing items (bag, cauldron and Summer Sword) and you are saying "hurr let's have just one, for example the bag", but effect of 2 bags in 2 misc-slots doesn't stack, so by equiping 1 commander with whatever ammount of bags he can provide only 50 supply bonus. But now I can equip 1 commander with Sword in one hand, with 1 bag and other misc will by taken by cauldron, so in sum now 1 commander (or scout) can provide 250 supply bonus.

Sorry my shitty English, tl;dr: you are a fucking retarded.
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>>127986262
Are you stupid?
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>>127986487
Stupid is the one who says: "hurr only way to properly balance the items is to remove 80% of them".
Items here for purpose, fuck you, retard.
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>an actual autism simulator
>the /vg/ group on steam is literal 99% pure autism
wat a surprise
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>>127986262
The funny thing is that your example is actually a good illustration of why you're wrong.

Yes, you could make a Summer Sword, a Bag of Wine and a Cauldron and slap them all on the same commander. Alltogether, that requires E1N3 and 35 gems. You'd probably need some decent national E/N mages for that.

Or, you could get some cheap indie commanders of scouts and give them each a Bag of Wine. Alltogether, that requires N1 and 25 gems and like 100 gold for the scouts to carry them, assuming you would otherwise only have the one commander. All you need for that is any of the indie tribe Shamans. If you brought any mage support that oculd hold the bags instead, the gold cost disappears.

It's obvious that the Bags of Wine are better than the other two options since they cost less gems per supply and can be crafted even by nations without Nature as long as they find one decent indie shaman (and those are super common). If you can't get a Bag (like, your research isn't high enough), the Cauldron is an acceptable alternative, but it's more expensive and requires N3. The Summer Sword is even worse since it has the same reduced efficiency as the Cauldron, but without the benefit of coming at an earlier research level.

The Cauldron is a prime example of an inferior item which is still good if you can't get the superior version, which I've mentioned before ("well, X is good if you can't get Y"). The Summer Sword is an example of an item that doesn't really have a niche, because anyone capable of crafting a Summer Sword could just craft three Bags of Wine instead. The only times I've ever used them is when I got them for free from events.
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>>127987284
wouldnt it be a good idea to make the cost of the worse items lower then?
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>>127987284
The purpose of the certain item lies not only in it's crafting requirments, it's cost and required research level, they are the most important, though. As I said slot type may be important too, difference in path-requirments may be important, strength of the effect may be important and so on. Cost-effectivness doesn't rejects existance of less effective items. They have their niche, when you lack free slots, mage-turns, time to equip army, research itself as you admitted yourself.
On top of that not the most effective item may be not crafted, but gained from indies or from event, so it DOES need to exist, despite being not the most cost-effective.
Not everytime you have time to properly prepare equipment and you have to be not effective but reach somehow your goal.

>>127987543
No, because the thing which is more important is the difference between items from different research-levels, paths, gem costs and strength of effects. Items doesn't supposed to be equal.
Yes, Summer Sword is shit, it's not effective, but leader can wield it, feed his troops with it and even hit someone to death with it. WHILE THE BAG OF WINE CAN NOT KILL ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.
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>>127987543
It would make it somewhat better, but it wouldn't solve the issue.

Let's put the Summer Sword aside for now. It's a silly item.

Say you make the Cauldron cost 10 gems. That makes it, gems-for-supplies, just as good as the Bag of Wine. But now we have one item that does the job of two of the other item, for the same cost. So you essentially save an equipment slot and a mage-turn for using Cauldrons instead of Bags. Previously that wasn't such a big deal because it would make more sense to save gems by crafting Bags (the mage-turn cost of an indie shaman isn't that significant anyway), but since that difference is gone, the next difference becomes the most significant. In essence, Cauldrons would now be the better items, and Bags would be the "it's good if you can't get Cauldrons" item, because of the Cauldron's higher magic path requirement.

Because of the nature of the game, players will always be looking for the "best" item to use. It's not like people will start crafting Summer Swords because they're cooler any more than they'll start trading in their Frost Brands for other, inferior weapons when equipping thugs. Efficiency is key, and inefficient choices don't get used.

>>127987973
Crafting a Summer Sword for the supplies and then using it to whack enemies is twice as stupid. You don't attack enemies with commanders, and you don't equip thugs with Summer Swords. If you want your commanders to survive in melee, don't give them Summer Swords. Give them Bags of Wine, and use the leftover gems to craft some Vine Shields maybe.
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>>127950960
P A N
W A S
R I G
H T
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>>127988303
You are blind about efficency and still you are wrong. Vine Shield can not kill anyone either. Yes, Summer Sword is not cost-effective in comparission with the Bag, but if I have a lot of N and E, but don't want to waste mage-turns or misc-slots on your leader, but want him to have magical weapon (it may save his life against etheral beings) and you want to have 100 supply points this turn and no 2 turns from now on, then the Sword is more effective.
Effectivness is not exists in Vacuum, it always applys to a certain game-situation. And existance of the Summer Swords make those situations more versatile. If I'll get this thing from event I will be overjoyed, it's convinient. And even crafting it in dare situation may be not a useless move.
You are blinded with the gem cost.
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>>127988765
If you need supply items, you have a big army.

If you had multiple commanders, you wouldn't need to "waste misc slots"

If the only commander in your big army is being attacked in melee, you've already lost the battle.

If you've already lost the battle, having magic items on you is going to help your opponent more than you, since he'll just take them after the battle.


If you're equipping supply items to kill enemies with, you're incredibly stupid.
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How do you create an item with limited regeneration? #regeneration just gives normal regeneration.
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>>127989009
>If you need supply items, you have a big army.

>If you had multiple commanders, you wouldn't need to "waste misc slots"
I may have 1 big (or very hungry), stealth army and not necessary I have time/gold/recruitment sites to attach a scout or a few to it. Yes, I may have several leaders in that army but all of them may have use for their misc-slots or they may want to take miscs from defeated enemy, so they need that slot empty. And moreover I may need 100 supply points right next turn and not 2 bags 1 turn later. Sometimes time is not waiting.

>If the only commander in your big army is being attacked in melee, you've already lost the battle.
He may not be alone, and he can got engaged in mele by few random units or few etheral shits like Spring Hawks and it's wiser to have Storm Spool against them instead of the Bag of Wine in the misc slot. And he can kill etheral that way. So I may not lost the battle, if the battle is on the brink, having magical weapon, useful misc-item or 100 supply instead of 50 may turn the battle in my favor. For example if in my army 10 units are starving despite me having 100 supply and it will help me barely win some battle, but having only 50 points of additional supply makes 35 my human-size troops to starve and had reduced morale, so that battle can be lost just due to that.

And having Summer Sword on your commander instead of Bag of Wine makes the probability of him to survive in some light brawl quite higher.

You perception of 'effectivness' is quite narrow, that is what I can say.
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>>127987973
>items are not supposed to be equal

hey guise lets spend time and money creating game assets that only newbies will use!
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>>127989738
I guess we've discovered the true purpose of bad items. As long as there are stupid players, there will still be someone who crafts them.
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>>127989864
Not everything measured in gems. Sometimes just having several different, unequal items greatly improves impact from the game.
Basically it's shity when you have some similar items, making the same fucking thing, but just 'flavored' differently and having just different, for example, color. It kills SOUL.
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>>127990128
Nah, it's just MP-only kids think so narrow that they are incapable to understand usefulness of some items which are being in the dark in the most cases.
I bet half of the scrubs here have though that only 2 items grants supply: bag and cauldron.

Basically just being aware of existance of 1-handed item which grants 100 supply points is making the whole tactics you can build up is far more diverce and fitting. But people knows only about bags. They are crippling themselves.
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>>127990553
Yeah. That's why nobody is using Summer Swords. Because they don't know they exist. It's not like they're just too shit to use or anything. Nope, not at all!
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Why don't people like LA games?
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>>127991501
They think "slightly less magic" means "no magic at all" or "magic is unimportant"
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>>127987543
The worse items are lower in the tech, uh, pillar.

The items such as the +supply ones described above have the problem is you only really need to maximise Supply Bonus per Gem spent ratio, with bonus of individual item not mattering because you can just equip many coms with it. With only 1 key parameter to maximise, not much can be done other than limiting availability of best ones through paths and tech levels.

As for combat bonuses, where you have a limited number of slots, all kinds of balance is possible and it is extremely silly to think you can't make loads of items that have their niche.
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>>127993708
Apart from boosters, the majority of weapons is going to be useless as long as brands exist.
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Also, back to supply items. How would you think of the following rebalance:

Bag of Wine - nerf path cost to N3
Cauldron - drop path cost to N2
Summer sword - Drop path cost to N1E1

Basicallty, Bag maintains its highest supply/gems ratio, if you have access to N3 and Const4, you make it.
The other 2 options are suboptimal in gem costs, but are more likely to be useful to people with no paths available for the optimal item.
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>try giving the flambeau a AOE 2 fire attack so it's better than a firebrad
>i forgot that the eternal knight has flambeaus too
>attack a indie province with a super geared up thugs
>gets wrecked by the flambeau's auto hit fire AOEs

I wonder what would be the best way to do this. How many units have flambeaus?
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>>127993860
due to the dumb ass combat system though, all items need some kind of AOE or you get a SC killing only one skeleton per turn which is dumb as fuck.
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>>127994273
Item costs are based on the level required to make it. 5/level. The bag of wine now costs 15 nature gems with 3N., the cauldron 10 natur egems, the sword 5 nature and 5 earth.

Pretty sure that can't be changed.
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>>127994449
Weapons can have multiple attacks, can't they?
'#nratt <nbr of attacks>
Sets the number of attacks per round for a weapon. For slow missile weapons set this value to -2 for every other round or -3 for every third round."
That isn't AoE, but it lets you attack more than once a turn.
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>>127994273
At least one of them should be N1. The whole point of having N1 bags is that everyone can get them with a fairly minimal investment. Making them N2 or N3 puts them out of reach of most indies, with means nations without native nature mages will get shafted on supply items.

>>127994454
I'm not sure that's true for every item though. Off the top of my head, the rings of sorcery/wizardry don't follow this rule.
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>>127994573
yea but the game will give you fatigue for every attack.
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>>127994352
Flambeau is weapon ID 95.

Go to the dom4inspector

property weapon == 95

search all units

Units with the flambeau weapon: Virtue (pretender), Eternal knight, Arch Angel, Angel of the host

All you have to do is change up eternal knights

Or, Git gut and give your thugs fire resist
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>>127994770
>At least one of them should be N1. The whole point of having N1 bags is that everyone can get them with a fairly minimal investment. Making them N2 or N3 puts them out of reach of most indies, with means nations without native nature mages will get shafted on supply items.

Considering the Bag is currently N1 it seems it is intended that at constr4, you are supposed to have easy access to supply boosts. In that case, i'd actually add another item, clearly inferior or at most on par with the cauldron and sword. So a new item could be like:
Magic food cart - N1, +150 supply, 25 nature gems. Expensive, inefficient, but it is N1.
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How do you deal with 50 underwater defence when your own troops are shit? What summons should I have my mages cast?
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>>127995521
Summon Bigger Fish
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>>127994770
>I'm not sure that's true for every item though. Off the top of my head, the rings of sorcery/wizardry don't follow this rule.

No, every item follows this rule. And rings too. Even items from Blood do, while 1 girl clearly is not worth 1 gem.
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>>127996015
Uhuh.
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>>127996015

Soul Contracts cost 55 slaves and 5 fire gems, requires 7B1F. 35 slaves and 5 fire gems, if what you're saying is true. Which it isn't. You can change the costs of things just fine.

>>127994273

Are you sum1? I was predicting you'd be nerfing stuff that doesn't need a nerf, like two threads ago.

>>127995521

Magic. Since you haven't told us what nation you are or what research you have or what flavour of underwater PD you're trying to kill or how easily you can get mages underwater, you're probably playing SP. In which case, just set underwater indies building for 20 turns while you do other stuff, it's easier than using magic underwater.
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>>127996254
It's not 6th level. It's 8th level. You need S8 to craft it.
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>>127996287
>>127996254
No you are wrong. Here is the path|cost chart:
1lvl - 5 gems
2lvl - 10 gems
3lvl - 15 gems
4lvl - 20 gems
5lvl - 30 gems
6lvl - 40 gems
7lvl - 55 gems (Soul Contract and Ring of Sorcerery here)
8lvl - 70 gems (Ring of Wizardry here)

Cost/path requirment combo is inseparable.
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>>127996345
And I suppose 8 times 5 equals 70?
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>Get turn received confirmation from llamaserver three times after sending in a turn once
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>>127996759
Say thanks that it's not other way around.
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>>127996287
no, he's not. You can look at sum1's ideas on the mod compilation doc that was linked here last time you made this claim
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>>127996828
Yeah, llamaserver has always been pretty good to me. I should really give that guy some beer money sometime.
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>>127985262
Check out Torgon's Item Rebalance mod on dom4mods (invisionfree)
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>>127996287
>I was predicting you'd be nerfing stuff that doesn't need a nerf, like two threads ago.

When one item is clearly superior to all others, it makes sense to nerf that one item, not improve every single other item.

The nerf should not necessarily item stats, as there are also path and tech requirements you can play with. I am fine with uber items that can wreck shit, but they should be expensive and rare, not mass-produced for every thug.

I didnt know about the path/cost relationship. It kinda sucks, as you cant adjust availability and gem cost separately (aside from tech reqs).


So lets try again, same premise as before: make a bunch viable + supply items. And since there are only 2 alternatives to the bag, we can go with "no nerfs" approach as well.

Summer Sword - increase supply bonus to 200
Cauldron - increase supply bonus to 150.

As result, summer sword has higher path cost, and as result its more efficient. Cauldron has the same efficiency, but is available at Constr2. So yeah, instead of nerfing the bag by a factor of 2, you can instead buff everything else by the same amount.
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>>127997061
i took a quick look at it but it doesnt appear to have done anything to make most weapons useful because of the "1 attack per round" problem.
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>>127994454
One trick to get a little more granularity is to make mainpath and secondarypath the same. So you can have a N4/N1 item that takes an N4 mage to forge and costs 25 nature gems.

>>127994273
This is really not good balancing. You'd be better off just tweaking supply amounts, and reducing the cost of summer sword and cauldron. e.g.

Cauldron moved to const 6 for N2/200 supply, Summersword changed to N1E1 for 125 supply, wineskin stays the same. This is probably a little too aggresive, but something along these lines is appropriate.

>>127996287
Please stop accusing everyone of being me just because you don't like their changes, especially without actually knowing what my changes are either.

>>127985262
My idea for balancing artifacts is to make extensive use of autospell and/or autospellrepeat. Midget's Revenge might repeatedly cast Shrink on enemies (or have cost increased and cast army of rats once per battle).

For lower-research items, general cost reductions and, for depressingly generic items, new abilities.
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Nice to see these threads are still happening. How frequently do new games form up? I'm in the mood to do something stupid like Bandar with a Blood pretender.
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>>127998849
>Cauldron moved to const 6 for N2/200 supply, Summersword changed to N1E1 for 125 supply, wineskin stays the same. This is probably a little too aggresive, but something along these lines is appropriate.

>>127998578
here.

Yeah, your changes work fine too. Cauldron giving 200 supply for 10Ngems feels a bit excessive though, maybe make it like +250 for N3 at const5, so you need the tech AND a someone with decent path, but in return you get a high-quality supply booster.
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>>127999258
>Bloodar Log
>stupid
Not really. They've got some pretty nice Blood summons.

Also, games start up irregularly, but there are usually a couple new ones every month.
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>>127980460
What about giving people different teams and a pool of resources to work with?

Each side gets a certain number of gems to spend on summons/items/battlemagic, a certain amount of gold to spend on units (possibly with a discount for sacred units because upkeep isn't a concern in this mode), and an amount of RP to distribute.
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>>127999536
>const5
Uh.
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>>128001228
yeah, i meant 6 obviously
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>>127995000
Oh, no shit? I didn't realize that. Does it not come into play for multiple-ranged-attacks?

>>127996587
Yeah, this is correct. I forgot that the higher items change a bit, and it isn't "just" 5/level. My bad.
If y'all want what the modding manual says on pricing and requirement-to-craft:
"#mainlevel <path>
Main path level requirement to forge this magic item. The level can be anything from 1 to 8. The cost of forging the magic item also depends on the level requirements."


>>127998849
>mainpath and secondarypath the same
How hacky.

Also yeah #supplybonus works for items (even though it's only listed under monsters, thanks manual), so messing with that (and #constlevel needed) works.
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>>128002237
>Oh, no shit? I didn't realize that. Does it not come into play for multiple-ranged-attacks?
It's wrong.

Fatigue is per combat round, not per attack, and I'm fairly sure ranged attacks give no fatigue.
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I'm dispelling Utterdark and AC. Wish me luck.

It's probably gonna backfire hilariously.
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>>128002237
>Oh, no shit? I didn't realize that. Does it not come into play for multiple-ranged-attacks?
It actually doesn't, else a Siddha with 4 swords of swiftness would explode in two turns.

It only gives fatigue for every round.
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Daily reminder that this is a no-skellingtons game.
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>>128004531
To be fair, most of those aren't actually skeletons.
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>>128004531
>Sceleria
>C'tis
>Asphodel
>no skeletons game
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>try giving cavalry trample to make them get past chaff
>works okay until i send a cavalry thug to take a province
>one master lich is defending it
>cant kill him because the thug wont stop using the trample attack instead of his magical weapon to one shot him

the combat logic in this game is so dumb
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So how many survived New Years Eve?
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Beaten by B9N9 boar spam. I will uninstall today, dont worry.
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>>128009310
the boar game too stronk
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>>128009310

It's actually a strong tactic vs human nations earlygame. It just loses instantly to anything of a higher size. It's a gimmicky strat that depends entirely on luck. Once higher-size summons come online, it instantly loses. It also instantly loses to giants etc. If you snowball hard enough, can win with it, but it's still gimmicky as fuck. It's like playing tribless ermor, it's not your skill, it's the start location/neighbours, that determines if you win.
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>>127978505
I had a 13 hour work day yesterday, followed promptly by 11 hours of sleep, and have been at work since I woke up. I won't be home until 5 or 6pm Eastern.
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>>128010091
Boars make excellent chaff, and you're relying on your mages to do the damage anyways. If the boars can actually run the enemies over, then that's awesome. If they can't you don't care because their job is just to pile up on them and keep the enemy occupied.
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>>128009310
I was shitting my pants right about then
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Does MA pangea have a way to heal afflictions or cure diseases? I need to know for uh.. a friend.
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>>128011793
Literally all of their troops have recuperation
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Is berserk +0 pretty much useless? You dont get any bonuses, except that your units are immune to morale.

Nature has tons of berserk spells but they all seem pretty meh.
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I'm not really sure what your plan was, here.
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>>128013573
The berserk line of spells are part of Pan's buffing repertoire for their hordes of melee units, and mostly is about preventing a rout.
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>>128013573
Making units immune to morale checks is prety damn useful though, especially if you have cheff that's going to get murdered by the dozens. Also, being immune to morale checks makes them hit through repel which is nice if you're fighting pikemen and shit.
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>>128010091
Tbf, there was no luck in these starts, they were all pre-determined. Marverni knew he was going to be surrounded by several human nations in this instance, such as Ulm.
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>>128014409
Xibalba had his goddamn Dragon on Mictlan's cap on turn 3
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>>128013642
Its clearly to make you cocky which he can then strike at you.
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>>128002734
>>128003925
Thats weird, then why were people here saying that quickness gives you double fatigue because you attack twice?

Another problem with giving multiple attacks is that any high number of attacks would cause you to insta gib thugs/SC. The attack penalty for iterative attacks in doms 4 is really low unlike something like D&D.
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>>128014821
And Mictlan knew that he was starting that close to Xibalba before hand - the imbalance in certain starts has nothing to do with luck, they were all intentionally placed their by the map designer.

Sort of like Latus, except not even close to as ridiculous.
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>>128015059
Quickness gives you extra fatigue because you get two rounds. If you use both rounds to attack, you get twice the fatigue.
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>>128015059
Quickness literally gives you two turns in a row, complete with movement, fatigue, etc. The bless gives you that every other turn.
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>>128015202
that's what I mean. Xibalba planned his start based on the fixed caps, and Mictlan's ignorant bliss ended rapidly, having in no way prepared for a possible - and frankly likely - aggressive rush.
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>>128013573
Also i could be wrong, but is there not a battlefieldwide spell that can also berserk the enemy? Berserking a bunch of casters is a nice way to make them useless.
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Rate mai prophetu, /domg/
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>>128016931
If you love him, buy him a new shirt and hat.
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>>128016931
Whats his affliction?
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>>128016931
>Not making an Archbishop prophet to get an H4
Do you even Ermor?
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>>128017375
DISCO FEVER
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>>128017487
I advise making him a lich.
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>>128017583
Liches are like the white boys of the skeleton world

Besides, he's a wicked clown. He'll never die.
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>>128018018
>first Undertale
>now Homestuck
It's devolving.
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>>128018423
basically the same fan base, to be frank.
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>>128020470
no
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>>128018018
It's honestly worth saccing him to get an H4. The army wide buff is really great.
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How balanced are those Neritia mods and everything else this Strabonic dude somehow manages to make?
IIRC they've been playtested in domg games before, right?
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>>128020834
this guy has so many mods.
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>>128021067
He also did some of the prettier maps that are commonly used
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>>128020834
They're balanced against each other, not vanilla nations. They're high tier, but not drastically OP.
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>>128020834
I don't think they've been playtested, but they're supposedly not that badly balanced unlike a lot of other mod nations.
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>>128021397
Really? Which ones? He doesn't seem to have any topics on the desura forum

Is this guy a damn robot?
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Hexawyr, Peliwyr, Biddyn, and I think one or two others with that same art style.

Also, mods don't take all that long to make. The hard part is the spriting, and this guy's something of an artist obviously so he has the ability to make them.
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>>128022020
I'm pretty sure that that's Pymous, not Strabonic.
Pymous has made a few mods (3, with 4th soon) with his Omniomicon thing and they all have pretty well-done art, yeah. Also, a new map "soon" or something.

True, mods don't take overly long to make, but it's not like it's a 3-hr affair (from my experience of messing with modding right now), then you have to balance em and other fun things. Sprites are shit, though.
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>>128022442
Oh, you're right. I thought that I recognized some of the nations there as being from the omni thingy
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To the guy that did the earth snakening thing - how did you set every side's pretender? Was that in the map, or in a mod?
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Does recuperation cure disease?
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>>128026367
It can. It removes afflictions at random, including disease.
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>>128020834
t