Who let the thread die Edition?
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Dominions is a fantasy turn-based strategy game created by two dudes. One of them is a teacher.
The game combines a simple presentation with an extremely wide array of strategic options, including over 2800 units, 800 spells and 300 magic items. Turns are resolved simultaneously, with players planning battles rather than directly controlling them.
It has simplistic graphics but is easily moddable and extremely deep.
Basically, it's an autist’s wet dream of a strategy game.
Join the steamgroup for multiplayer
>Our work-in-progress wiki
This is a community resource that has every unit, spell, and item in the game in an accessible database.
>Play by email guide:
For testing battle formations and spells
>Where do I get it?
It is available on Gamersgate and Steam. Desura is ded.
>Read the manual
>Read the pastebin
Submit completed games here:
Also, games currently waiting for more players:
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=domgeagame - a regular EA game, Worthy heroes 5.5
http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=RevengeOfFlatus - massive clusterfuck game on a map what's way too big.
Get in here!
Don't forget the horrifying amount of preplaced gem sites.
Nations that start on one of the planes are easymode because you'll be getting 50 of whatever a turn by turn 20
I just hope that everyone who joins Latus is fully aware that it's going to end in tears and globalspam instead of throwing a spergfest and/or pussying out the moment someone starts casting Armageddon.
Oh, well that'll work. So here's the deal with doom horrors - they have a 50% chance to go rogue every turn, so you need to teleport them onto enemy land as soon as possible. They still leave after a single battle, but depending on the doom horror and gear they can do an insane amount of damage or even take out an enemy army if you teleport it onto them. A fun thing that not everyone knows is that if you put horrors into an empty province (like, you clear the province with a horror attack and then sit the horrors there on the following turn) then they actually stay there since there's no battle, so if you can clear a province out, you might be able to put a doom horror guard on it. Not 100% sure if this works, though.
Knowing where they are doesn't help if you literally can't get to them. Even if you do make a beeline for them, you're crippling your expansion to take over wastelands that give blood slaves but little to no income with a non-blood nation. While you're fucking yourself over just to get to fight them, they'll be building up normally and when you do get to them, you'll be fighting them much closer to their cap with a long, thin strip of land which can easily be cut off and make you go from low income to no income.
In other words, you not only fuck yourself over, but you are also at a massive disadvantage in the fight itself.
I have no desire to play this clusterfuck map I'm just wondering if this is an actual nation that gets this actual start and bonus, and wondering how bad it can be (read: what nation would possibly get it)
Time to meme.
Guess where I'm going to start. Guess what I'm going to cast.
>r'lyeh casts armaggedon and utterdark making half the nations mad so they go AI
are you guys done fucking the squids or did he just get bored because he had nothing else to ruin for the other players?
In his mythology he is literally the sun god.
Most other heroes are just famous generals or exceptionally talented mages.
He's a bad chassis for SC or even thug duty. TNN has far better rec-anywhere commanders for that.
Pretty much all he gets you is F3 and forgebonus 1. That's nice but many heroes give you way more.
>summon an iron dragon
>costs 30 earth gems, requires research level 9
>send it against a shitty indie army of 15 trogs
>it manages to kill 3 before dying
How the fuck is this an end game unit?
Iron Dragons are specifically good against masses of low damage units. The fact that they fly and have size 6 trample means that they can roll right over guards to start squishing mages.
Trogs are high strength units which are vulnerable to things other than trampling constructs.
As someone who played in the first one, it's going to be fun as long as you don't take it seriously. Also, most sides have fixed starts, so start a game as whatever side you wanted to play with the debug mod active and an awake pretender with astral, cast eyes of debug and have a look where each other side is in relation to you.
Four more players and we'll have every late age nation. Resign yourself to death, join the clusterfuck!
I think that unless they had a literal "I Win" attack, nobody but those noobish enough to not mobilize their mages/use their gems efficiently would ever use them at con 9
And even then, I would still stop at Const 6-8, get something better with my research/mages, and probably win the game while my opponent is beelining for the second of the most over costed/researched troops in the game, shortly behind the fucking tarrasque.
Research Level 9 just isn't really worth it in general.
Poison Golems are expensive, surprisingly squishy for their price, cancerous on the province they're in, and also cost a little more than the ever-useful Lich, and only a little less than a nice Wraith Lord.
Mechanical Militia is a PD global that isn't Haunted Forest and is thus shit, especially for it's price and the point in time you get it.
Siege Golems are nice if you really need a castle dead fast and aren't awful as evo sponges, but honestly there are better ways to spend 20 earth gems. They're dragged down by awful attack and defense as well as not being a commander.
The Juggernaut is the only one I have nice things to say about. It spreads Dominion, doesn't cost too much, is very, very sturdy, and is surprisingly good at murdering things, though it's a bit too expensive to put on the frontlines.
So to answer your question: fucking no. It is balanced at a much lower research level, or costing significantly less gems. At even 30 gems and with the buff I would still only summon it in single player as a fucking joke unit, much like the Tarrasque.
Stuff at higher levels needs to be worth the mage turns used in researching them. And Iron Dragon is most definitely not worth however many mages however many turns to get to Const 9.
How do you stop a geared up thug (human sized, so usually 20 hp or less) from being easily gibbed by damage spells?
Like orb lightning never seems to miss and will pretty much insta gib a thug unless you stack at llast two shock resist items on him (which you may not have access to due to path restrictions).
If I expend however many mages that I could've been using to attack/site search/forge/etc just researching up until level 9 on const, I expect something on par with the other level 9 stuff (wish, Gift of Nature's Bounty, Arcane Nexus). I do not want a single iron dragon unit at 30 earth gems. And if I did want that, I'd want it to come with five extra arms, fucking perfect morale, and it to fucking not be a glorified suicide bomber at const 9 and 30 gems that has to be led by a fucking something with magic leadership.
Iron Dragon is a dogshit spell and anybody that casts it has probably lost the game because of how many other better ways there are to use earth gems/a e4f2 mage.
To fix it you need to figure out a commander that is worth spending a couple thousand RP on, plus a couple turns of mages, plus some gems.
>The Juggernaut is the only one I have nice things to say about.
Really? It seems very overpriced to me, even before you consider the specific research level/school.
25 pearls is a lot to pay for what is essentially a temple, especially at lategame when pearls are at a premium.
No, I do not want it for 20 Earth Gems. I do not want Iron Dragons, Sam I Fucking Am.
Listen, if they were at a lower research level, units, and cheapish, they could be like Demon Knights, and act as fear batteries. But they aren't.
If they were commanders, they'd still need to be lowered in research/gems, and even then would hardly ever be used as a SC/Thug considering their poor item slots
On top of all that, there are just so many fucking uses for earth gems that any nation with a E4f2 dude with access to this spell probably has so much other shit to craft/cast/attack with.
You can't stack multiple temples in one province, though, so just temples generally results in a dominion stalemate. Massed juggernauts, however, can push dominion hard, which can be important if you're trying to domkill or (more likely) utilize massed immortals.
it would fucking depend on so many things.
Like fucking everything.
Does the nation start with that commander?
is it a commander or a unit?
Can you summon more?
Your idea is so bad that nobody knows what the fuck to do with it.
realtalk: do you even play dominions IV?
This would be in place of the iron dragon spell. Only commanders can use 'summon ally,' so naturally it would be a commander
I don't think they storm forts
I know you were just saying that because Bogus and co are the heroes that fight against the evil overlords and this is totally a mad scientist unit.
Instead of the summon? No, I am not waiting a bajillion turns when i hit construction 9 to get a massable army.
As a pretender? You know the fuck better.
As a lesser research summon: it would fucking depend.
you should start with the assumption that it modifies the spell that is actually being discussed since that is how normal rebalance ideas work, cleverbot.
This would immediately let you answer
>start with it? no
>commander or unit? well I'm pretty sure units cant freespawn, so there you go
>summon more? sure, it's a spell
first,calm down. You're talking to a bunch of different people spitballing ideas, no need to get angry.
Second, they're flying, highly resilient fear-causing firebreathing tramplers immune to mindhunt and soulslay. They seem to be a decent deal at 20 gems, since most summoned thugs end up costing significantly more after gear.
I, too, am deeply concerned by this which is why I proposed a magic factory.
It'd be a cool spell for a super stalemate situation, and those are probably the only times that you're getting cons 9 anyways.
Pushing dominion is just generally a poor tactic. Because of the defensive advantage enemy dominion gets it's extremely hard to break into enemy dominion, even if they're not actively using priests to keep you out.
If you do for some reason want to push dominion, a better option is to build more temples in other provinces or to get a bunch of stealth priests or heretics (or both). Temples are cheaper and don't require level 9 research while stealthy priests/heretics have a more concentrated effect on enemy dominion than juggernauts, letting you precisely choose provinces to push your dominion into (and also don't need level 9 research).
They don't really need slots.
They have 24 prot, 0 enc, mindless, can't regenerate anyways, have fear, a massive AoE breath weapon, flying trample, and an aoe melee weapon.
What are you going to give them to make them better thugs? I guess maybe a vineshield?
They're iron though.
No. Yalls ideas are terrible ones. Come up with better ones. Making it a commander is terrible because of its lack of slots and how much rp it takes to get it. Making it a unit is terrible because why would I want to use 30 gems and an EQ caster to summon this. Making it a summon wont ever help because at CONST 9 I expect a lot more than 1 fucking Iron Dragon a turn.
They're okay, but at 30 gems and 9 construction they're pretty much a classic case of "win more"
Even if we pretend Const 9 isnt a secondary school at best for most nations, why isnt that E4 mage being used to EQ/Forge? Why am I spending 30 gems on something that will die to fucking troglodytes than to literally anything else?
well construction 9 needs SOMETHING.
Currently trying this out for Iron dragons :
does not heal, immune to afflictions (not sure how to make non healing units heal afflictions when repaired at a lab)
Removed damage penalty on tail sweep, dragon's breath now has an AOE of 3.
Well jeez, seems pretty good. I just hope anyone never uses that dang ol horde of skeletons spells/unraveling/opposition/etc. But that's surely impossible considering I got this at Const9 at the expense of all other schools. Easy/Obvious counters are a non issue at this point of the game because all my opponents are AI/RUSHING FUCKING CONST 9
>you can only hit level 9 research if you rush it
>you need to go for const9 first
A summon doesn't need to make an entire school viable by itself.
Buff the const9 summons and give construction some more level 7/8 spells and the suggested buffs would fit in fine.
10 D2 mages should be able to summon skeletons faster than a dragon kills them, and the dragons are really expensive.
Setting the iron dragons to attack rear might work but I've never done trample against skellyspam so can't say.
an aoe 3 dragon's breath can hit the mages, but i dont know if attack rear would be sufficient enough to make the dragon target mages instead of the chaff in the rear.
If i'm not mistaken 20 AP lets you move up to 20 squares a round so that's 20 squares of skeletons being forced to make defence rolls or get gibbed. I don't know if the trample roll is dependant on the dragon's attack skill either.
There's also the problem of mechnical militia being dependant on PD which is shit, but that's a problem on PD in general. Does anyone know if its possible to lower the cost of PD/change the number of commanders it gives?
>trying out vanarus
>vanabogs are 15 hp battle mages
Okay how do you use them as thugs? I don't think mistform works against spells right? And what are the blood paths for, vanarus doesn't seem to hve any way to get a blood economy going?
>an aoe 3 dragon's breath can hit the mages, but i dont know if attack rear would be sufficient enough to make the dragon target mages instead of the chaff in the rear.
Me neither. As I said, would need someone to test.
>If i'm not mistaken 20 AP lets you move up to 20 squares a round so that's 20 squares of skeletons being forced to make defence rolls or get gibbed.
Trample seems to be limited to 3 squares per turn or something. Tramplers definitely don't do their full AP as trample.
Trample doesn't appear to be dependent on attack skill, manual just says defense against 10.
>Okay how do you use them as thugs?
Mistform brand vineshield.
Are you sure you want to use cap-only StR expensive mages as thugs, though?
>I don't think mistform works against spells right?
Don't move your thugs into provinces with mages.
>vanarus doesn't seem to hve any way to get a blood economy going?
Sages have 33% blood randoms.
>They are way too expensive for battlemages
>but I want to thug them out anyway
>Well, the D2 and B2 should be easy enough to find uses for.
Those are not better uses than thugging
>but I'd probably leave thugging as a last resort.
I wouldn't because most of the magic is easily covered by other national mages and having a force of stealthy cloud trapezing high quality thugs is a very welcome addition to a nation.
>have a fort with roads in a waste province
>i have a commander with 2 map moves and no troops in that province
>the game will only allow me to move 1 province away with him
I thought roads were supposed to remove the movement penalty from provinces?
With high production, Ur can actually expand incredibly well and snowball off their initial expansion to take more and more provinces. Their foreign recruit mages, while too expensive to serve as lab rats, are buff casters on par with the Panii.
At 340 gold and slow to recruit, they are too expensive to waste on spamming skeletons or blood hunting though.
Since they are sacred and priests you could get a good bless and thug them, but they are too squishy for that.
>but they are too squishy for that.
Are you people serious? They are elves.
They'll take on any number of PD easily.
They aren't as numerous as vanjarls but they fill the thug role perfectly.
Don't trust the manual for things other than the basic structural mechanics. Only thing you can trust for sure is the wiki, and even then that only applies to facts because there was some guy who went and wrote in his ignorant opinions as "guides" on some of the nation pages.
But since the wiki is quite incomplete, asking here is the next best thing.
enkindu shaman are better than Panii in every single way except RP and Enc, and Shaman's have a research malus for some fucking reason and slightly better prot for that single added enc.
>Those are not better uses than thugging
>too expensive to waste on spamming skeletons or blood hunting though
I mean summoning or forging things. Possibly a few major combat spells like Blood Lust/Skeletal Legion/Wailing Winds on the side.
B2A2 are your only mage who can get storm demons without boosters or empowerment, and you only get D1 outside those cap-only mages.
Not really. Thugs kill DP and smaller, unsupported armies. Depending on the thug they might get lucky against mages as well, but that's not their job. Their job is to take out undefended shit so your armies can do the actual fighting without having to take constant detours to conquer provinces and intercept reinforcements.
SCs should be able to handle more than that, but even SCs will often die to a couple properly prepared mages.
I don't understand what people mean when they say thug. Is it just lingo for an an artifact equipped, non-spellcasting commander? Also I don't know what SC means although I'm guessing spellcaster.
>Is it just lingo for an an artifact equipped
Lord no. Artifacts are way too precious to waste on thugs.
Not necessarily. The most commonly used thug (Bane Lord) is a non-spellcaster, but plenty of popular thugs can cast spells to buff themselves.
A thug is a commander which can, with a minimal amount of equipment (usually just a Vine Shield and a Fire or Frost Brand) take on a virtually limited amount of regular troops, like province defense.
An SC (Super Combatant) is basically a much stronger, more heavily equipped thug that can kill entire armies without the right counter.
The line between a heavy thug and a light SC is very thin, but the main distinction is that a thug is a unit that can get the job done with a minimal gem investment so you don't mind losing them when something goes wrong, while an SC is primarily meant to survive just about anything and cost is less of a concern when equipping them.
>star fires are armor negating
>verbose battle log shows that infantry still get to use their protection value against it
Does armor negating just mean the base armor isn't used, but the DRN value is still used?
I mean, we kinda did. The wiki is kinda like reading the inspector and testing in that it's something that newer players that actually want to git gud can do, but some people are still going to jump into the game blind and flail about for a bit before realizing that there are other resources available to them.
>The wiki is kinda like reading the inspector
Well those parts are useless and the people adding those big pointless tables are dumb. But we were talking about an actually useful part of the wiki.
>in that it's something that newer players that actually want to git gud can do
I wasn't saying that the wiki just has information form the inspector. I was saying that the wiki is a resource that newer players can use to learn, but some people won't.
You seriously need to work on reading comprehension mate.
Back in dom3, Iron Dragons in some mod (probably CBM, but I played a bunch) were commanders and relatively cheap, and flew, and were tough enough to take on most stuff that wasn't magic, and even tank a bit of magic. They were excellent raiders for the price, and worth bringing to fights. Sure, they got shot up by Mind Hunt and stuff, but they had a solid niche and other const 9 stuff was good for earth nations, too.
>use an army with 70 longbowmen
>they shoot some shitty indie horse tribe cavalry (12 prot)
>each volley kills less than 5 units
What the fuck. Are most ranged units in this game useless or something?
>Use an army with 70 long ranged units
>Fire upon the enemy without being hit back and without your own melee units killing them
>Still kill 5 units per volley
The advantage of ranged units is that they deal damage in addition to the line of melee units. All of the melee units behind the ones fighting are doing nothing, while your ranged units continue to dish out damage. If you have a sufficient mass of ranged units that you can kill enemies with every volley, then you will quickly win the battle.
Also, there are buff spells to make your ranged units better. Anything with any protection (even 12) will mitigate a significant portion of the damage from your bows (longbows should deal 3-4 on average, iirc. I don't feel like mathing the pierce bonus in my head) with crossbows faring a fair bit better. To really win on massed archers, you'll want Wind Guide and Flaming Arrows to supplement them.
Regardless, if their volleys would kill an enemy for each ranged unit, melee would be almost entirely obviated.
70 units killing less than five is kind of pathetic, though. And if you're going to use wind guide and flaming arrows, you should factor in what buffs your opponent could be using.
Yea but it's not exactly hard to make most melee units get in range.3 big blocks, done.
If you use the same amount of gold/resources, a pure melee army would wreck a mixed one and that just makes ranged units too weak.
Sure you can buff them with spells, but your opponent can do the same thing with his melee army.
>trying to make dragon pretenders less shit
>try giving them trample and 20 ap
>attack a level 1 throne
>the dragon dies in 3 turns while trampling through the skeletons on the way to the mages
A dragon should not be getting poked to death by skeletons, what the fuck.
Give them recup and put them in the 160 price range.
Bam dragons are viable again, they used to be THE awake expanders but now they're just to pricey to just end up with a ton of afflictions.
That's roughly how many would die historically. If we're talking nomadic riders at mid-long range (horse tribe are ranged, so I doubt they were at point blank). Archery was to keep the enemy's head down, not 'get kills'. Wounds force morale checks, not just kills.
If archery did huge damage, then why even bother having melee units. Flaming Arrows and Wind Guide basically do this anyway, to the point that certain nations prioritize getting Arrow Fend up.
4 more points of prot. Maybe increase the length of their weapons for repel purposes (dragons probably got real big claws and teeth, right?), but repel and def get devalued pretty quickly.
Trample is a decent idea, though. Dragons killing things one at a time is bleh. DE gave them a MELEE range breath weapon, too. So they spray flame at things while in melee with them, instead of mysteriously just not using their breath weapon except at range sometimes if you get the scripting right.
>Yea but it's not exactly hard to make most melee units get in range.3 big blocks, done.
This might be the first time that I've seen a player here that could genuinely be improved by playing against the AI
You pick your fights. Thugs/SC are best against troops and mages eat them up, especially if your enemy scripts against them. Thugs/SC are good way to give some extra power to your big army as the enemy mages wil be (hopefully) shooting at your troops instead.
I think i might have made dragons too OP.
So i gave them prot 22, length 4 weapons, and made the tail sweep a AOE 2 attack to kill chaff. I also made the dragon breath usable in melee 50% of the time and doubled the AOE.
Removed the damage penalty on the poison breath because 3-4 damage in the first turn isn't going to do anything.
From what i can tell, with a strength of 28, the poison breath was doing 3-4 damage on average for the first tick. Each additional breath will do 3-4 damage for the first tick and i think each tick will stack. An AOE of 16 was wiping out hordes of infantry.
The tail swipe was less impressive. I thought an AOE of 2 would be the target square + each square around it, but nope, it seems to be the target square + one random adjacent square.
I was able to outdps a mage spamming horde of skeletons but that was just one mage and i still ended up with two afflictions. I think i need it to kill skeletons faster and tone down the AOE breath.
Frogs and bats are very cute together!
Poison doesn't affect skeletons. They also resist ice. A fire dragon vs skelespam would probably be a better test.
Also, dragons vs indies is all well and good, but dragons vs player stuff is probably more important for balance concerns.
And you're kinda saying that it's slightly better than an erf snek. Can kill 1 skelespammer but gets afflictions, kills indies. For 200 points i'd probably just take the erf snek.
If Dragons just had recuperation they would be a lot more useful than they currently are. Right now, every battle with indies is a gamble that your dragon gets muted or feebleminded by some random indie unit with a stick, and your pretender is just a big sack of meat.
Hey guys, this archer lost both his arms, will he still fire his bow?
Anything is possible with enough pearls.
The intervention sounds like a good idea, considering he's such a helpless gem fiend. I'm not sure if I can attend though.
Pretty sure by A5 he meant S5. He's going to run out of slots pretty soon though, and I'm pretty sure the monkfish will be mad if his Eyes get blinded by Pelagia's addiction.
>not empowering your dispeller to S10 as a long term investment
what are you,retarded? it literally saves you dozens of gems in the long run
eyes of god lets me see.
because I did not prioritize enchantment, like he did. I don't know why everyone is surprised by the fact that nexus pelagia is rushing enchantment globals, its literally his entire game plan.
well, that and wish.
Chaff resistance = chaff clearing x prot.
Dragon prot is not 24, so not chaff resistant.
Dragons clear chaff slowly.
DE had great breath weapon that stopped dragons being in melee, prot was a better stat in dom3, and dragons got more prot in DE. So they were great at chaff clearing.
Dragons also have worse magic than snek or bull.. Fire, water, even nature is not as good as E or E/N.
If I was fixing dragons, i'd give them E6 Erf Snek level prot, a 3-square AoE melee breath weapon, either 40 newpathcost or a secondary path (2f1a, 2w1s, 2n1e) a cost reduction, gem generation in their primary flavour, and recuperation (or regen for the nature dragon, since it can cast that spell once you get the research anyway). But i'm of the opinion that Gods should be Godly, and not shit, so.
>If I was fixing dragons, i'd give them E6 Erf Snek level prot, a 3-square AoE melee breath weapon, either 40 newpathcost or a secondary path (2f1a, 2w1s, 2n1e) a cost reduction, gem generation in their primary flavour, and recuperation (or regen for the nature dragon, since it can cast that spell once you get the research anyway).
So basically you want them to be ridiculously overpowered. Gotcha.
>But i'm of the opinion that Gods should be Godly, and not shit, so.
Pretenders aren't gods, m8. See also: All those human mage pretenders.
So, how do I stop this crazyness?
Air elementals+iron warriors?
and then have a few commanders with smashers +ring of lightning resist?
How many of the God chassis live up to being godly? Because your description of the power level you'd want dragons to be seems above what chassis are at the moment, which would be a really fun level to bolster all Gods power to (I, for one, would definitely like to see a mod which did that)
Regen greatly reduces the chances of getting afflictions in the first place, but you could give it recup + regen, or whatever.
Eh. What I described, 4 skelespammers will kill it. So will MR-negate spam, or elemental damage of not-it's-flavour. Some kinds of sacreds won't, but other kinds will. It still can't fight out of Dom, because limb/head hits.
A human mage with 5A will outperform it with research, to huge extents. A dragon is a combat pretender. It should be good at combat. If it's less good at combat than like, 2 indie mages, that's not really good design.
>What I described, 4 skelespammers will kill it. So will MR-negate spam, or elemental damage of not-it's-flavour.
The same goes for just about every single unit in the game, including all other pretenders.
What you're describing is something that's a much better expander than an Earth Snake (which is already much better than pretty much everything else atm), while also being more mobile, a less shitty combatant in actual fights, with better magic variety and a gemgen on top of it.
You're completely fucking mental if you think that's not OP as fuck.
The bless chassis and forger chassis are okay. They make sacreds badass and then cast globals, or enable your national mages with boosters, both of which is pretty badass. Combat pretenders, though, suck nearly universally. Hugely expensive, and only useful to fight indies mostly. Except for a few like erf snek that can expand well for a reasonable price. And those are often less than useful against enemies, even if inside dominion and before heavy magic use.
DE diversified most chassis, so gods could more easily afford paths if they were primarily casters but also had domsummons if they weren't physically imposing, so there was an argument, albeit minor, for taking them awake. And combat chassis had slightly easier magical access and all were actually good at combat. You could take more pretenders without actively nerfing yourself, and you never felt like your god was a waste of points or useless unless you really screwed up and added pointless paths or something.
Trample gives fatigue equal to encumbrance for every square trampled. Skelespam produces chaff to get trampled forever.
The dragon probably trampled until it passed out, then the skeletons hit it 24 times a turn until the accumulated crits killed it.
Trample isn't really a good trait unless the unit also has 0 enc.
Eh, Titan chassis geared and with the right buff spells will walk through all those things. Even quite a bit of skelespam.
And i'm describing something that gets mauled by significant numbers of national units, and not just giants, either. And by spells that are quite low in research. All it does is wreck indie face, and have a good chance of taking level 1 thrones, and taking on poorly set up armies inside it's own dominion. None of which are crazy for something that costs you 350 design points BASE (200, and -150 for being non-dormant). E6 earth snake prot might be a bit much, e4 is probably fine since it has strong melee damage so it won't get mobbed as much by indies.
The Earth Snake is good because earth is a good path, because it's prot + fear means it can expand easily, and it is quite cheap for what you get. I don't think 'handles expansion for you, and then is an earth mage for the rest of the game' is a good baseline for combat pretenders.
Well, for a start, each individual thing slotting into it's own little role is false diversity/complexity, in that it seems complex/diverse but is actually less complex/diverse.
Secondly, something (a pretender god) becoming more diverse meaning it gained skills or abilities outside it's existing skills or abilities is simple english. Misunderstanding that meaning takes a hell of a lot of autism.
>What I described, 4 skelespammers will kill it.
Skellyspam is absurdly efficient at dealing with single powerful units. 4 skellyspammers killing a unit which isn't specifically built to deal with skeletons isn't unusual at all.
The pretender you described has the paths of a titan and the slots of a titan at a similar cost on top of being able to SC with minimal gear.
I wouldn't mind having all pretenders be at that level, but that's far above the current standard for pretender strength.
>Titan chassis geared and with the right buff spells will walk through all those things. Even quite a bit of skelespam.
If you're allowing gear and buffs, so will your dragon.
> I don't think 'handles expansion for you, and then is an earth mage for the rest of the game' is a good baseline for combat pretenders.
Have you ever played Dominions? Serious question, because I don't think you have.
The Earth Snake is one of the most popular pretenders right now for a reason. Turning Dragons into Earth Snakes + free AOW attacks + Flying + Regeneration + gemgen + Titan-tier magic is completely retarded.
You just want a pretender that's the best at everything, which is NOT what pretenders are supposed to be. You want a god-tier expander? There's a pretender for that. You want something with lots of pretender slots and good buff magic so you can play SC? There's a pretender for that. You want a big fat bless and don't much care about combat? There's a pretender for that. You want something that's a better expander than the best expander in the game, while also giving you a solid SC chassis, high survivability and top-tier magic? Fuck off.
>paths of a titan and slots of a titan
It has the slots of a titan when it's in human form, where it doesn't have the 100+ hp or size a titan has. 10hp != 150hp. False equivalency.
Most of the time you shouldn't take a titan god. They're most often (nearly only) used as a bless chassis. Judging things by gods people don't take (I was mostly referring to Tartarians, and things like Telkhines and Melqarts) is pretty shitty design. Also, a false equivalency.
>If you're allowing gear and buffs, so will your dragon.
Okay. The things the dragon can buff itself with that make literally any difference are Body Ethereal, Resist Magic/Iron Will, Liquid Body/Temper Flesh, Regen, Soul Vortex. Mistform gets popped by anything that can harm it in the first place (magic, heavy hits). It's base prot means Ironskin/Invuln are largely pointless. Quickness might help, might not. Fire shield likewise - chaff clearing is not something that dragon design has a problem with. Those are all different paths, at varying levels of research, so the dragon probably can put one on itself.
It has a head slot and two misc slots in dragon form. The Titan has full slots in Titan form. The Titan also benefits more from buffs, and likely has better buff paths for it's needs. You can also summon Titan chassis, and have to Wish for Dragons.
With gear and buffs, things favour the Titan (not that people take Titan gods for combat, nor should they). The Dragon's strength, as all combat pretenders' strength, is in the earlygame, before counters to it are online (and nearly every nation has some form of counter to it), and it's further restricted by needing to fight inside friendly dom. Which is huge. Defensive fighting doesn't get you land and is a lot weaker than offensive fighting.
>Well, for a start, each individual thing slotting into it's own little role is false diversity/complexity
What does this have to do with Dominions? There are alternatives for literally every role a pretender could play. Just because the Earth Serpent is undercosted doesn't mean you should just buff everything into oblivion.
>it seems complex/diverse but is actually less complex/diverse
And yet, it's infinitely better than allowing everyone to do everything.
>Secondly, something (a pretender god) becoming more diverse meaning it gained skills or abilities outside it's existing skills or abilities is simple english.
The diversity of the game as a whole takes precendence over the diversity of any single pretender. Maximising the diversity of the pretenders ruins the diversity of the game, because everyone would just pick the one pretender that's the best regardless of what their intended role is.
>Misunderstanding that meaning takes a hell of a lot of autism.
Oh yeah, start accusing people who don't agree with your nonsense of being autistic. That REALLY helps your argument.
Just two more and we're full! C'tis and Pan are left.
>The Dragon's strength, as all combat pretenders' strength, is in the earlygame, before counters to it are online
Exactly. That's it's strength. That's what it's for.
What you don't understand is that's not a problem. It has its role, it doesn't need three other roles. It doesn't need to be better than an Earth Snake plus a Titan. What's next, are you going to complain you can't expand efficiently with an awake Crone?
You don't actually know why people take Earth Serpents, so it's pretty amusing that you're saying I don't play dominions. People take the Earth Serpent because it's cheap and reliably expands. It also provides earth magic on a durable chassis, but it's utility in early wars etc is completely nonexistent. You do not take it against anyone but the scrubbiest scrub and expect it to do anything.
It's also cool that you think it's ideal for the Pretender God of a nation to perform only one function for the nation, for a limited time, and don't know anything about how combat pretenders used to be far more viable (both dormant SCs and awake monsters) in dom3 (and it's many mods), and having ultra-specialized gods is less of a feature and more of a bug. 90% of the Titan chassis are actually irrelevant - there is never a design or build for which they are optimal. There is almost no circumstance where you should ever take any expander other than an earth snake. It is almost cheaper to buy an extra path on the earth snake than to take a different chassis. Combat Pretenders only exist where you're playing against an idiot. I have used them, knowing they sucked, and managed to use them against idiots, while knowing if they know anything at all about the game, that combat pretender is dead.
That Dragon design can do three things. Take out indies, fight extremely early or shitty armies and not just die, and have some midgame and lategame utility via it's paths. It sure as hell is a replacement for most of the Titan chassis - because they fucking SUCK. It doesn't even replace the earth snake - if you want scales more than you want a big flying douche who dies to enemy magic (and there's every chance you do), the earth snake STILL expands for cheaper than the dragon. And just as (or even more) reliably.
>People take the Earth Serpent because it's cheap and reliably expands.
THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT, YOU UNBELIEVABLE RETARD.
It does one thing really well, and that's it. And it's STILL the most popular pretender in the game right now. You want to give a Dragon expansion power that's even better than the Earth Snake on top of also giving it the magic diversity and combat power of a Titan AND YOU SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS. What is even wrong with your brain for you to think like that?
Dragons were relatively popular before the Earth Snake was introduced and started doing what they did for a lot cheaper. I definitely agree that the Earth Snake is underpriced as fuck, but making Dragons literally better than everything else is a completely fucking retarded answer to that.
In case you weren't aware, we're not talking about Dom3.
Autism is a verb on domg, get over yourself.
>even though you were specifically talking about the abilities of individual pretenders, when you said diversity you meant the whole game's total scope, not those individual pretenders' abilities!
>stop buffing things! Dragons being better than shitty pretenders but not necessarily better than earth snake means it's op
So making dragons competitive with pretenders people actually take is bad. We should be balancing the Dragon to the pretenders that only noobs and people doing some niche strategy take.
Or to pretenders Imprisoned for a bless. That's the standard for awake combat pretenders.
Just because Asphodel has a few monkeys in their undead circus that aren't undead, doesn't mean we share the same ideals.
I'll regard Ashpodel as my little adopted kid brother who has seen the light.
>Dragons being better than shitty pretenders but not necessarily better than earth snake means it's op
If you honestly think this
>If I was fixing dragons, i'd give them E6 Erf Snek level prot, a 3-square AoE melee breath weapon, either 40 newpathcost or a secondary path (2f1a, 2w1s, 2n1e) a cost reduction, gem generation in their primary flavour, and recuperation (or regen for the nature dragon, since it can cast that spell once you get the research anyway).
is "not necessarily better than earth snake", please stop talking. You obviously haven't actually played Dominions. I mean damn. That's some masterwork bastard sword level shit right there.
Just because the Earth Snake is overpowered for its price doesn't mean making everything else better than it is a good idea.
>It has the slots of a titan when it's in human form, where it doesn't have the 100+ hp or size a titan has. 10hp != 150hp. False equivalency.
It can still use those slots for boosters, magic pen, and other useful items. Slots for SC gear are a different matter, for reasons I'll get into in a bit.
It has less slots, yes. However, you've given it a lot of the benefits from those slots built-in.
It gets a better brand with AoE3 breath and AoE1 tail sweep, plus already has extremely good armor at 26 protection. Dragon has flying already, which most chassis need boots to get. It also doesn't have to deal with encumbrance from armor, which reduces the reinvig you need.
You're missing the shield slot and the ability to swap out gear. That's a bit annoying, but it only makes it a little worse than titans. Nearly as good at lategame SC duty as a titan is still very good.
>The Titan also benefits more from buffs, and likely has better buff paths for it's needs
W2S1, N2E1 are fairly standard titan paths. F2A1 aren't great buff paths, but an AoE3 fire attack is very strong.
What kind of titans get better buff paths?
The protection buffs do help titans more, but that's a very small subset of buff spells.
>You can also summon Titan chassis, and have to Wish for Dragons.
It's completely irrelevant when talking about taking it as a pretender, but that's wrong. There are no spells which summon titans.
Did you miss the part where the earth serpent is cheaper? And can have it's prot buffed further than the dragon's, making it better against heavy cav and the like? And awake pretenders don't have the 150 design points of dormant, so you're losing important scales, not dump scales, for every 40 points you spend on them?
Dragons were popular because they were good in dom3 and people liked them. The meta was also for higher domscore so people felt it cost less to give them awe than what it actually cost. They were never good. Bull and the like were far better. Dragons dying in expansion was extremely common.
If the Dragon is worse than the earth serpent and costs more, we're back to 'why take it'. The answer is, as people have realized, 'don't take it'. If you think the earth serpent needs to cost 200 design points or whatever, sure. Then we start looking at the Bull, the Wyrm, that weird scorpion tailed giant griffin thing with 18 base prot, etc. Most of whom are borderline in effectiveness (in many cases, simply taking extra prod scales and a different, dormant god will do better than them), who won't necessarily see play just because the earth serpent is gone, but are STILL better than the dragon as it currently stands. Penny-ante changes like longer claws will not actually change anything for the dragon.
Judging pretenders by other pretenders that no-one takes is bad design. It's just dumb, and not going to change anything.
Really, the only thing dragons really need is recuperation (should be mandatory for expanders anyway) and a slight cost reduction. Bring the cost of the earth snake up to their level as well and Bob's your uncle, the entire problem is solved.
If you have the bulls or the boar, and do not intend to expand underwater (or want to use cold scales) you take those over the snake.
The snake is only so popular because I think literally EVERY nation gets it, whereas the others are more exclusive.
>Did you miss the part where the earth serpent is cheaper?
You didn't even read my post.
>Dragons were popular because they were good in dom3 and people liked them.
You didn't even play Dominions 4 before the Earth Serpent.
>who won't necessarily see play just because the earth serpent is gone
They're seeing play even WITH the Earth Snake. Hell, even dragons see (limited) play, just look at Xibalba wrecking Mictlan with a dragon.
>but are STILL better than the dragon as it currently stands
That's arguable since flying and an AoE attack adds a lot more than you seem to think, but even if its true, making dragons ridiculously OP is not a valid answer to this.
>Judging pretenders by other pretenders that no-one takes is bad design.
Which "pretenders that no-one takes" would you be referring to here?
I just want to call this guy out for being awesome. I have never had the class to admit defeat.
So any requests for the song lyrics I post next time I absolutely crush one of my many opponents?
I was thinking Justin Timberlake - Lovestoned
I don't think that's such a bad idea. Even regular Recuperation would be acceptable IMO. It's not something taht gives any kind of straight-up advantage and won't suddenly turn regular pretenders into guys you want to have taking hits, but it does keep the pretenders from being an unusable mess after getting hit a couple times. It would remove a bit of the risk from options like casting Eyes of God and Mind Hunting though.
A lot of Titan and Monster chassis never see play except as a curiosity. A lot of rainbow and titan chassis get picked when they shouldn't. Some immobiles rarely or never see use (the idols etc). Even when people pick a Wyrm or whatever, it's generally not a good choice on their part. Non-bless Titans and rainbows used for any other purpose other than making boosters for a path that the nation gets natively but not high enough to open up a buff spell like Flaming Arrows or Fog Warriors is generally a waste of design points.
If you want to be reductive and say that PGs should only be useful for one limited thing, you end up with a 'best at' for each of those single roles, and then a howling wasteland of suboptimal chassis. If you instead have multirole chassis, like DE and to a lesser extent CBM had, it makes more chassis viable. If Great White Bull costs roughly the same as an Earth Serpent, so what? If Earth Serpent is cheaper but only expands, but great white bull has three paths that increase it's midgame utility while also potentially being a booster forger, but costs more, and there's a Titan that is cheaper than the bull, you end up with actual choices to make.
For the point cost of a dragon, giving it the ability to reliably kill indies and also do as much magic as a titan with less good path choices (when you can't set it dormant like a titan, if you want to use it's expander utility, and F, W, or N aren't ideal - E/S or A are generally the booster paths people want) is not crazy at all compared to the things people actually take and the uses they are put to. Earth Serpent is cheaper, expands reliably, and has 2E. Titans you can choose the flavour you want, and get 2 in the path you want to boost. Blah blah. Saying the Wyrm, a pretender that gets picked maybe one game in three by one nation, should be competitive with the Dragon, is saying the Dragon should suck.
You 'obviously' like ad hominem. That's retarded, but I guess so is arguing anything on /domg/. People like you are why there are so many 'balance mods' for dom4 that don't actually change the meta in any way and therefore don't see use.
Dunno but i have a SMAC version of it.
Sorry for the endless shilling, but we only need one more player.
There's got to be some goatfucker out there willing to join as Pan!
Can anyone give me some advice on doing research?
Lets say i have some of my key army buff spells are on level 4 of some school. Do i rush there immediately, or do i actually diversify and get 1-2 levels in other techs before focusing on my main one?
Are there perhaops some schools which are considered mandatory to get to level 1-2 due to some extremely important spells? Which would these be for each path?
Also, is there any point researching in more than 1 school at once, or you just focus 1 school and just manage overflow when you are about to level it up?
To answer your questions backwards, if you put all the research into one and then the other, you get the former faster than if you put half and half.
Unless there is a spell you're wanting to cast, you don't need the research. You only need the research the turn before the battle yu want to use it in or turn before you want to cast/summon whatever it is. If something is key, get it first, but be mindfull of what other spells you might want to use, and that each research level costs the total amount it took to get to the previous level from 0 and a bit more.
k, another question: is there anywhere i can check precise values of spell effects?
Like there's Alteration 1 Earth Might, and then theres Enchantment Strength of Giants. I see the difference in AoE, but i dont see the amount of strength the spells actually give. Does the effect scale with path level? If yes, how exactly?
Is there any place where such data can be looked up? If not, where is it stored in the game files? I assume its in some readable format, considering the way mods work.
Though, that's assuming you're using the inspector and in game spell descriptions, which between them get most the details, but not ones such as how much strength or other bonuses are.
The manual and the inspector have that information (mostly the inspector). Links in the OP.
(that said, all strength buffs like that are the same - you'll note they have the same tag in inspector).
Yeah i am. It seems the buff effects that improve a certain stat (such as the +strengh ones i mentioned) just dont have precise descriptions anywhere. Oh well, i guess testing it is then.
Holy fucking shit, the manual actually has the exact values... and its just +4 strength. Alright, good to know, +4 strength certainly doesnt feel like a game changer, more like just an ok buff.
Yeah, the problem is that i'm playing a race of Big Guys so the buff will not make that much of a difference.
That said, which buffs would be most efficient for an army mostly composed of 4+ size units?
Body Ethereal is really fucking nasty on giants.
Really, though, with Ashdod your dudes don't need many buffs, so you can concentrate on de-buffing/killing the enemy. Earth Meld from the E2s (after Summon Earthpower), Shadow Blast from the D2s, Falling Fires from the F2s (after Summon Firepower), Stellar Cascades from the S2s.
Wait wut, i dont remember any Ashdod disease healers. I even checked the summons section, nothing there either.
This is a self-buff though, at least as far as i see, and it also needs W1 to which i have no direct access whatsoever.
>Wait wut, i dont remember any Ashdod disease healers. I even checked the summons section, nothing there either.
He's probably confusing it with Gath/Hinnom, who have rec-anywhere healers.
You do have a healer summon though, the Arel.
>This is a self-buff though, at least as far as i see, and it also needs W1 to which i have no direct access whatsoever.
Stygian Rains will apply that buff to everything on the field (including the enemy), but it still requires water magic. You could get access to W/D via Spectres, but I don't think Stygian Rains is important enough to make that a priority.
Apparently I need to start more games since this general is still pretty dead
Fuck it, then.
Here's the pretenders.
And I started out on a fucking asteroid this time. Not one of the other worlds, a goddamn asteroid. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing.
I'm sure we can get along with a few snakes. We're practically family!
> Blood Magic Bonus: 30
Horrors for everyone!
How can you not love Ed? He's so hilariously incompetent in each and everything he does - total useless moe.
Corbyn's just plain boring.
He wasn't particularly competent, but the news played up that aspect because
otherwise he was just a bland middle of the road left wing politician, which is really uninteresting.
Corbyn being just a normal person with fairly left wing views is great, you can practically hear the spindoctors rotating in their chairs trying to find some way to demonise his normalness with some hilarious results.
I don't know man, he just gives off an this aura of awkwardness. I love it - I seriously get a good, hearty chuckle every time I see a picture of him.
It's funnier to imagine that he is.
What the fuck? Is this guy Canadian? I can only imagine a Canadian being this awkward. Brits have class. They do all their fucked up shit behind closed doors or in college. Like fucking dead pigs.
Nope, British descendant of Jews (hence the avatarfagging).
Well, we've got a smart goy here.
What happened in AY btw? I remember that Xibalba rushed Mictlan and then Machaka somehow beat him up. I also remember reading that Pelagia put up a bunch of gem globals and still isn't topping the charts. Given that Agartha is supposed to be winning, I assume that he ate some folks too?
While slightly better than vanilla dawn of dominions (it gave Caelum extra provinces, since Caelum used to be UP and gave Vanheim of all nations a perfect corner start, among other things) the nature of the map makes the starts naturally imbalanced. If an aquatic nation starts at the eastern sea, for instance, it's basically completely fucked
how would you allow dragons to clear skeletons fast?
also does anyone know how enlarge mechanics work? it seems to be an extra +3 str per size level, and a 25% hp boost per level?
Honestly, I'm lucky my druids didn't get fucked by the flaming arrows. In the end, the boars that survived the volleys did the most work.
Do you guys think that allowing cavalry to have 3 misc slots to make up for their missing foot slot is a good idea?
What about allowing some pretenders that only have 2 misc slots to have more misc slots?
That is surprising, given that druids can make the sky fall on people's heads. I would think that with Gifts from Heaven they could clear 30 squares of enemies per turn (90 units!) - and that would be with an inefficient 1-1 communion too.
I don't think it'd really break anything, but I also don't think it'll make a huge difference. Cavalry that was already good will get slightly better (though most elven thugs don't even want to use their misc slots)
All blood spells are 30% cheaper. All magic bonuses work that way.
I think that the idea is that the advantage granted by the boots is tied to the wearer walking on them - boots that make you run fast don't have an impact when you're riding instead of running.
What did you have them scripted to cast instead?
stellar cascades. Maybe I was just looking in the wrong places over the course of the battle but enemy fatigue didn't seem to be that high before they died to trample.
I'm guessing power of the spheres on all the E2 druids would be the quickest way to get some Gifts from Heaven casters up.
What? No, dude, just use Summon Earthpower. It gives more E and reinvig. Also, your E1 druids can still cast it if you make a communion. Put half of the E1 druids as slaves and the other half as masters, have all of the masters cast Summon Earthpower and have one of them cast Power of the Spheres, and then call the masters can spam Gifts from Heaven forever.
On the other side of war-torn Europe. This isn't as impressive, I admit, but I decided to post it in case people are curious about how things are going.
All those flying units
Are you having them split up to raid and then bringing them together for bigger fights like the one you posted? I can't think of another reason to have that many flying commanders, since they don't make particularly good back line diving thugs.
70 gold each though - and you're paying for sacred status without being able to bless them if you don't have a flying priest to go with them. I mean, don't get me wrong, I totally get that they're strong and great for raiding given their high prot and lances, but they're definitely not cheap.
Then again, you're using engineers instead of oreiads which is 125/turn instead of 203/turn for mage spending, so that's one additional wind rider per turn right there. I guess I use arco pretty differently from you in general.
as far as I can remember its basically similar to blood vengeance though I think it has its own set dmg instead of hitting for an equal amount.
no idea how much that is though
I do love Oreiads too, but I needed more mages casting storm power urgently. Generally I recruit one or two oreiads in the early game for site searching, since thwir high paths aren't as useful until you've researched something to cast, then start recruiting a core of mage engineers before switching into mid game oreiads. A dozen or so mage engineers can do all sorts of useful things, like magma bolts and quill forging, and eventually some of them willbeable to cast RoS.
Pegasus riders are great raiders, but I've found they are also very useful at stopping minotaurs from trampling my front lines. Pegasi fighting minotaurs, pretty fucking archaic.
>trying to mod sites to remove scale effects
>#incscale just adds an extra scale effect instead of modifying the current one
>if i use #clear, that removes EVERYTHING, and the inspector doesn't include things like cluster values so i can't properly recreate the site
Remember to eat your cucumbers, /domg/!
Who needs anyone else except a kappa to invade water provinces?
I want to do a scripting challenge where both sides are given the same army and fight it out in a best of two, where they each attack and defend. I wanted to involve mages, since magic scripting is more interesting than just doing troop stuff that takes advantage of the game AI, but every system that I can think of for doing so is likely to see the exact same spells cast for every army. Any suggestions?
Honestly, I think the only way to properly balance the items is to remove 80% of them, and nobody wants that.
There are simply too many items and not enough niches for them to fill. You can get some mileage out of the "well, X is good if you can't get Y" mindset, but beyond that there's always going to be a "best choice" and making underused items better isn't going to change that. At most, you'll end up making them better than the current best choice, which only shifts the issue without actually solving it.
I am not the guy you are answering to, but I can say that you don't know shit about logic behind Construction school.
All items have their place in a certain research level, so by scratching it you can have some access to some effects deoending on which paths you possess. It's not like game needs ONE FUCKING ITEM for a certain purpose in ONE path on a SOME research level. That is just stupid. We need, for example, wall crashing item on 4th and 6th level, and in 2-3 different paths/crosspaths, with the certain cost for it. And you just asking to have 1 fucking item on the certain level with the certain paths and I bet you want it multipurpose on top of that.
And moreover I forgot about which slot that item is using, it's very important. For example, in the game we have 3 supply-providing items (bag, cauldron and Summer Sword) and you are saying "hurr let's have just one, for example the bag", but effect of 2 bags in 2 misc-slots doesn't stack, so by equiping 1 commander with whatever ammount of bags he can provide only 50 supply bonus. But now I can equip 1 commander with Sword in one hand, with 1 bag and other misc will by taken by cauldron, so in sum now 1 commander (or scout) can provide 250 supply bonus.
Sorry my shitty English, tl;dr: you are a fucking retarded.
The funny thing is that your example is actually a good illustration of why you're wrong.
Yes, you could make a Summer Sword, a Bag of Wine and a Cauldron and slap them all on the same commander. Alltogether, that requires E1N3 and 35 gems. You'd probably need some decent national E/N mages for that.
Or, you could get some cheap indie commanders of scouts and give them each a Bag of Wine. Alltogether, that requires N1 and 25 gems and like 100 gold for the scouts to carry them, assuming you would otherwise only have the one commander. All you need for that is any of the indie tribe Shamans. If you brought any mage support that oculd hold the bags instead, the gold cost disappears.
It's obvious that the Bags of Wine are better than the other two options since they cost less gems per supply and can be crafted even by nations without Nature as long as they find one decent indie shaman (and those are super common). If you can't get a Bag (like, your research isn't high enough), the Cauldron is an acceptable alternative, but it's more expensive and requires N3. The Summer Sword is even worse since it has the same reduced efficiency as the Cauldron, but without the benefit of coming at an earlier research level.
The Cauldron is a prime example of an inferior item which is still good if you can't get the superior version, which I've mentioned before ("well, X is good if you can't get Y"). The Summer Sword is an example of an item that doesn't really have a niche, because anyone capable of crafting a Summer Sword could just craft three Bags of Wine instead. The only times I've ever used them is when I got them for free from events.
The purpose of the certain item lies not only in it's crafting requirments, it's cost and required research level, they are the most important, though. As I said slot type may be important too, difference in path-requirments may be important, strength of the effect may be important and so on. Cost-effectivness doesn't rejects existance of less effective items. They have their niche, when you lack free slots, mage-turns, time to equip army, research itself as you admitted yourself.
On top of that not the most effective item may be not crafted, but gained from indies or from event, so it DOES need to exist, despite being not the most cost-effective.
Not everytime you have time to properly prepare equipment and you have to be not effective but reach somehow your goal.
No, because the thing which is more important is the difference between items from different research-levels, paths, gem costs and strength of effects. Items doesn't supposed to be equal.
Yes, Summer Sword is shit, it's not effective, but leader can wield it, feed his troops with it and even hit someone to death with it. WHILE THE BAG OF WINE CAN NOT KILL ANYONE BUT YOURSELF.
It would make it somewhat better, but it wouldn't solve the issue.
Let's put the Summer Sword aside for now. It's a silly item.
Say you make the Cauldron cost 10 gems. That makes it, gems-for-supplies, just as good as the Bag of Wine. But now we have one item that does the job of two of the other item, for the same cost. So you essentially save an equipment slot and a mage-turn for using Cauldrons instead of Bags. Previously that wasn't such a big deal because it would make more sense to save gems by crafting Bags (the mage-turn cost of an indie shaman isn't that significant anyway), but since that difference is gone, the next difference becomes the most significant. In essence, Cauldrons would now be the better items, and Bags would be the "it's good if you can't get Cauldrons" item, because of the Cauldron's higher magic path requirement.
Because of the nature of the game, players will always be looking for the "best" item to use. It's not like people will start crafting Summer Swords because they're cooler any more than they'll start trading in their Frost Brands for other, inferior weapons when equipping thugs. Efficiency is key, and inefficient choices don't get used.
Crafting a Summer Sword for the supplies and then using it to whack enemies is twice as stupid. You don't attack enemies with commanders, and you don't equip thugs with Summer Swords. If you want your commanders to survive in melee, don't give them Summer Swords. Give them Bags of Wine, and use the leftover gems to craft some Vine Shields maybe.
You are blind about efficency and still you are wrong. Vine Shield can not kill anyone either. Yes, Summer Sword is not cost-effective in comparission with the Bag, but if I have a lot of N and E, but don't want to waste mage-turns or misc-slots on your leader, but want him to have magical weapon (it may save his life against etheral beings) and you want to have 100 supply points this turn and no 2 turns from now on, then the Sword is more effective.
Effectivness is not exists in Vacuum, it always applys to a certain game-situation. And existance of the Summer Swords make those situations more versatile. If I'll get this thing from event I will be overjoyed, it's convinient. And even crafting it in dare situation may be not a useless move.
You are blinded with the gem cost.
If you need supply items, you have a big army.
If you had multiple commanders, you wouldn't need to "waste misc slots"
If the only commander in your big army is being attacked in melee, you've already lost the battle.
If you've already lost the battle, having magic items on you is going to help your opponent more than you, since he'll just take them after the battle.
If you're equipping supply items to kill enemies with, you're incredibly stupid.
>If you need supply items, you have a big army.
>If you had multiple commanders, you wouldn't need to "waste misc slots"
I may have 1 big (or very hungry), stealth army and not necessary I have time/gold/recruitment sites to attach a scout or a few to it. Yes, I may have several leaders in that army but all of them may have use for their misc-slots or they may want to take miscs from defeated enemy, so they need that slot empty. And moreover I may need 100 supply points right next turn and not 2 bags 1 turn later. Sometimes time is not waiting.
>If the only commander in your big army is being attacked in melee, you've already lost the battle.
He may not be alone, and he can got engaged in mele by few random units or few etheral shits like Spring Hawks and it's wiser to have Storm Spool against them instead of the Bag of Wine in the misc slot. And he can kill etheral that way. So I may not lost the battle, if the battle is on the brink, having magical weapon, useful misc-item or 100 supply instead of 50 may turn the battle in my favor. For example if in my army 10 units are starving despite me having 100 supply and it will help me barely win some battle, but having only 50 points of additional supply makes 35 my human-size troops to starve and had reduced morale, so that battle can be lost just due to that.
And having Summer Sword on your commander instead of Bag of Wine makes the probability of him to survive in some light brawl quite higher.
You perception of 'effectivness' is quite narrow, that is what I can say.
Not everything measured in gems. Sometimes just having several different, unequal items greatly improves impact from the game.
Basically it's shity when you have some similar items, making the same fucking thing, but just 'flavored' differently and having just different, for example, color. It kills SOUL.
Nah, it's just MP-only kids think so narrow that they are incapable to understand usefulness of some items which are being in the dark in the most cases.
I bet half of the scrubs here have though that only 2 items grants supply: bag and cauldron.
Basically just being aware of existance of 1-handed item which grants 100 supply points is making the whole tactics you can build up is far more diverce and fitting. But people knows only about bags. They are crippling themselves.
Yeah. That's why nobody is using Summer Swords. Because they don't know they exist. It's not like they're just too shit to use or anything. Nope, not at all!
The worse items are lower in the tech, uh, pillar.
The items such as the +supply ones described above have the problem is you only really need to maximise Supply Bonus per Gem spent ratio, with bonus of individual item not mattering because you can just equip many coms with it. With only 1 key parameter to maximise, not much can be done other than limiting availability of best ones through paths and tech levels.
As for combat bonuses, where you have a limited number of slots, all kinds of balance is possible and it is extremely silly to think you can't make loads of items that have their niche.
Also, back to supply items. How would you think of the following rebalance:
Bag of Wine - nerf path cost to N3
Cauldron - drop path cost to N2
Summer sword - Drop path cost to N1E1
Basicallty, Bag maintains its highest supply/gems ratio, if you have access to N3 and Const4, you make it.
The other 2 options are suboptimal in gem costs, but are more likely to be useful to people with no paths available for the optimal item.
>try giving the flambeau a AOE 2 fire attack so it's better than a firebrad
>i forgot that the eternal knight has flambeaus too
>attack a indie province with a super geared up thugs
>gets wrecked by the flambeau's auto hit fire AOEs
I wonder what would be the best way to do this. How many units have flambeaus?
Item costs are based on the level required to make it. 5/level. The bag of wine now costs 15 nature gems with 3N., the cauldron 10 natur egems, the sword 5 nature and 5 earth.
Pretty sure that can't be changed.
Weapons can have multiple attacks, can't they?
'#nratt <nbr of attacks>
Sets the number of attacks per round for a weapon. For slow missile weapons set this value to -2 for every other round or -3 for every third round."
That isn't AoE, but it lets you attack more than once a turn.
At least one of them should be N1. The whole point of having N1 bags is that everyone can get them with a fairly minimal investment. Making them N2 or N3 puts them out of reach of most indies, with means nations without native nature mages will get shafted on supply items.
I'm not sure that's true for every item though. Off the top of my head, the rings of sorcery/wizardry don't follow this rule.
Flambeau is weapon ID 95.
Go to the dom4inspector
property weapon == 95
search all units
Units with the flambeau weapon: Virtue (pretender), Eternal knight, Arch Angel, Angel of the host
All you have to do is change up eternal knights
Or, Git gut and give your thugs fire resist
>At least one of them should be N1. The whole point of having N1 bags is that everyone can get them with a fairly minimal investment. Making them N2 or N3 puts them out of reach of most indies, with means nations without native nature mages will get shafted on supply items.
Considering the Bag is currently N1 it seems it is intended that at constr4, you are supposed to have easy access to supply boosts. In that case, i'd actually add another item, clearly inferior or at most on par with the cauldron and sword. So a new item could be like:
Magic food cart - N1, +150 supply, 25 nature gems. Expensive, inefficient, but it is N1.
>I'm not sure that's true for every item though. Off the top of my head, the rings of sorcery/wizardry don't follow this rule.
No, every item follows this rule. And rings too. Even items from Blood do, while 1 girl clearly is not worth 1 gem.
Soul Contracts cost 55 slaves and 5 fire gems, requires 7B1F. 35 slaves and 5 fire gems, if what you're saying is true. Which it isn't. You can change the costs of things just fine.
Are you sum1? I was predicting you'd be nerfing stuff that doesn't need a nerf, like two threads ago.
Magic. Since you haven't told us what nation you are or what research you have or what flavour of underwater PD you're trying to kill or how easily you can get mages underwater, you're probably playing SP. In which case, just set underwater indies building for 20 turns while you do other stuff, it's easier than using magic underwater.
No you are wrong. Here is the path|cost chart:
1lvl - 5 gems
2lvl - 10 gems
3lvl - 15 gems
4lvl - 20 gems
5lvl - 30 gems
6lvl - 40 gems
7lvl - 55 gems (Soul Contract and Ring of Sorcerery here)
8lvl - 70 gems (Ring of Wizardry here)
Cost/path requirment combo is inseparable.
>Get turn received confirmation from llamaserver three times after sending in a turn once
>I was predicting you'd be nerfing stuff that doesn't need a nerf, like two threads ago.
When one item is clearly superior to all others, it makes sense to nerf that one item, not improve every single other item.
The nerf should not necessarily item stats, as there are also path and tech requirements you can play with. I am fine with uber items that can wreck shit, but they should be expensive and rare, not mass-produced for every thug.
I didnt know about the path/cost relationship. It kinda sucks, as you cant adjust availability and gem cost separately (aside from tech reqs).
So lets try again, same premise as before: make a bunch viable + supply items. And since there are only 2 alternatives to the bag, we can go with "no nerfs" approach as well.
Summer Sword - increase supply bonus to 200
Cauldron - increase supply bonus to 150.
As result, summer sword has higher path cost, and as result its more efficient. Cauldron has the same efficiency, but is available at Constr2. So yeah, instead of nerfing the bag by a factor of 2, you can instead buff everything else by the same amount.
One trick to get a little more granularity is to make mainpath and secondarypath the same. So you can have a N4/N1 item that takes an N4 mage to forge and costs 25 nature gems.
This is really not good balancing. You'd be better off just tweaking supply amounts, and reducing the cost of summer sword and cauldron. e.g.
Cauldron moved to const 6 for N2/200 supply, Summersword changed to N1E1 for 125 supply, wineskin stays the same. This is probably a little too aggresive, but something along these lines is appropriate.
Please stop accusing everyone of being me just because you don't like their changes, especially without actually knowing what my changes are either.
My idea for balancing artifacts is to make extensive use of autospell and/or autospellrepeat. Midget's Revenge might repeatedly cast Shrink on enemies (or have cost increased and cast army of rats once per battle).
For lower-research items, general cost reductions and, for depressingly generic items, new abilities.
Nice to see these threads are still happening. How frequently do new games form up? I'm in the mood to do something stupid like Bandar with a Blood pretender.
>Cauldron moved to const 6 for N2/200 supply, Summersword changed to N1E1 for 125 supply, wineskin stays the same. This is probably a little too aggresive, but something along these lines is appropriate.
Yeah, your changes work fine too. Cauldron giving 200 supply for 10Ngems feels a bit excessive though, maybe make it like +250 for N3 at const5, so you need the tech AND a someone with decent path, but in return you get a high-quality supply booster.
What about giving people different teams and a pool of resources to work with?
Each side gets a certain number of gems to spend on summons/items/battlemagic, a certain amount of gold to spend on units (possibly with a discount for sacred units because upkeep isn't a concern in this mode), and an amount of RP to distribute.
Oh, no shit? I didn't realize that. Does it not come into play for multiple-ranged-attacks?
Yeah, this is correct. I forgot that the higher items change a bit, and it isn't "just" 5/level. My bad.
If y'all want what the modding manual says on pricing and requirement-to-craft:
Main path level requirement to forge this magic item. The level can be anything from 1 to 8. The cost of forging the magic item also depends on the level requirements."
>mainpath and secondarypath the same
Also yeah #supplybonus works for items (even though it's only listed under monsters, thanks manual), so messing with that (and #constlevel needed) works.
>Oh, no shit? I didn't realize that. Does it not come into play for multiple-ranged-attacks?
Fatigue is per combat round, not per attack, and I'm fairly sure ranged attacks give no fatigue.
>Oh, no shit? I didn't realize that. Does it not come into play for multiple-ranged-attacks?
It actually doesn't, else a Siddha with 4 swords of swiftness would explode in two turns.
It only gives fatigue for every round.
Daily reminder that this is a no-skellingtons game.
>no skeletons game
>try giving cavalry trample to make them get past chaff
>works okay until i send a cavalry thug to take a province
>one master lich is defending it
>cant kill him because the thug wont stop using the trample attack instead of his magical weapon to one shot him
the combat logic in this game is so dumb
It's actually a strong tactic vs human nations earlygame. It just loses instantly to anything of a higher size. It's a gimmicky strat that depends entirely on luck. Once higher-size summons come online, it instantly loses. It also instantly loses to giants etc. If you snowball hard enough, can win with it, but it's still gimmicky as fuck. It's like playing tribless ermor, it's not your skill, it's the start location/neighbours, that determines if you win.
Boars make excellent chaff, and you're relying on your mages to do the damage anyways. If the boars can actually run the enemies over, then that's awesome. If they can't you don't care because their job is just to pile up on them and keep the enemy occupied.
I was shitting my pants right about then
I'm not really sure what your plan was, here.
Making units immune to morale checks is prety damn useful though, especially if you have cheff that's going to get murdered by the dozens. Also, being immune to morale checks makes them hit through repel which is nice if you're fighting pikemen and shit.
Thats weird, then why were people here saying that quickness gives you double fatigue because you attack twice?
Another problem with giving multiple attacks is that any high number of attacks would cause you to insta gib thugs/SC. The attack penalty for iterative attacks in doms 4 is really low unlike something like D&D.
And Mictlan knew that he was starting that close to Xibalba before hand - the imbalance in certain starts has nothing to do with luck, they were all intentionally placed their by the map designer.
Sort of like Latus, except not even close to as ridiculous.
that's what I mean. Xibalba planned his start based on the fixed caps, and Mictlan's ignorant bliss ended rapidly, having in no way prepared for a possible - and frankly likely - aggressive rush.
Liches are like the white boys of the skeleton world
Besides, he's a wicked clown. He'll never die.
Hexawyr, Peliwyr, Biddyn, and I think one or two others with that same art style.
Also, mods don't take all that long to make. The hard part is the spriting, and this guy's something of an artist obviously so he has the ability to make them.
I'm pretty sure that that's Pymous, not Strabonic.
Pymous has made a few mods (3, with 4th soon) with his Omniomicon thing and they all have pretty well-done art, yeah. Also, a new map "soon" or something.
True, mods don't take overly long to make, but it's not like it's a 3-hr affair (from my experience of messing with modding right now), then you have to balance em and other fun things. Sprites are shit, though.
Not really. It's a great item and all, but it's not suited for MP. Using it takes a lot of time in a slow pace, while in MP you have to search your lands fast and forget about them after that. Re-searching them again with the Atlas is just a waste of time. Game will end faster.