Skull Face talks about wiping out English. He says people's motherland is their language. He believes he can force the world into perpetual war by taking out English and, in doing so, preserve people's identities and give them freedom.
Snake does not talk. His motherland is mother base. Soldiers without nation, without a unifying language, tied together not by words but by actions and beliefs.
Snake's very existence proves Skull Face wrong. He doesn't need words to kill him. He will not validate him by talking.
He will kill him.
[you can now start spewing memes, calling me a faggot, and insulting kojima]
i have no qualms with it
Big Boss kidnapped African children to train them as his army.
Let wild animals on his base. Kept cows by robots! Wolves running around uncontrolled!
Killed his own men because they were sick!
Tried to kill a brilliant scientist! Killed his wife! Took his son away!
That's a copout and Kojima has been a developer for long enough to know that this kinda stuff just doesn't work for video games. The structure of a video game, unlike that of a movie or a novel, demands a climactic confrontation with the antagonist, there's a reason boss fights are a thing.
You're right; we may disagree on this but I think the fact that people wanted a boss fight but didn't get it fits nicely with the theme of phantom pain and a never sated thirst for revenge.
I would have loved a boss fight with skull face, personally.
Well, he does love his movies.
The problem is that videogames, as they are, follow the Hollywood formula of storytelling. This includes the way television sets things up as well.
You have a slow build up in the first hour to two, similar to the first thirty minutes, then the big fall, and the dramatic rise and climactic conclusion.
In essence by going against Hollywood he's also going against the modern cinematic game.
The real problem is that it's almost impossible to do either form in games due to the necessity of player input.
I really hope at some point Kojima or someone else involved in the development will come out and talk about just what exactly was planned for MGS V and how much of it they couldn't realize.
Fucks like you are the reason no one wants to take video games as a serious artform. Holding on to a shitty status quo for the sake of your immature endorphin rush is costing innovative devs from trying anything new. Go fuck yourself.
yea it is him not the art snobs who demand the newest form of art is not REAAAL Art.
>movies are not art!
>photographs are not art!
>books are not art!
learn about history. threads become apparent.
I know you're trolling but fuck that, that argument is completely nonsensical. There's nothing less artistic about bossfights than there is about any other abstraction video games use to tell their stories. You could even argue movies often have their version of bossfights, as in a climactic battle scene with major or minor antagonists. No one would claim The Good, The Bad and The Ugly is too video gamey, just because it's climax is a three-way duel between the three main characters.
Just like Big Boss and Venom, Quiet has had her life ruined by war and revenge.
She can no longer live a normal life, unable to speak and wear clothes.
Venom is the only one who judges Quiet not by what she is, but by what she does. Not once does he comment about her outfit or her silence. He judges her actions and gives her the benefit of the doubt like he would do to any other soldier under his command.
This is why she falls in love with him.
And you know what's funny? Feminists were too busy flinging shit at her outfit to notice that.
>You could even argue movies often have their version of bossfights, as in a climactic battle scene with major or minor antagonists
His point is that this is the sort of thing you see in lowest common denominator trash, the insistence on sticking to staples like that causes stagnation and nothing else, it's just there to please a pleb audience. It's one of the most artistically validating things I can say about the witcher 2, that you don't have to fight the final boss, you can talk to him over a bottle of vodka.
Those are entirely subjective concepts though, and there's absolutely nothing about a boss fight that inherently lowers a game's artistic merits.
I mean, shit, Shadow Of The Colossus, a game that is constantly held up as one of the standards that represents the potential of the medium as "art" is literally nothing but wandering a world map to go have big exciting boss fights with monsters.
>there's absolutely nothing about a boss fight that inherently lowers a game's artistic merits.
Not inherently no, it's just that with time, that method will do nothing but serve as an easy way for developers to deliver a satisfying climax. If something becomes the "go-to" way of pleasing someone, people will soon see it as "the easy way" that lacks imagination or creativity. SotC is appreciated because it got creative with the idea of boss fights and how you fight them. It was fresh at the time. Now think of other games with boss fights, how much time have you spent in games trying to chip away at a giant health bar with brute force? Just think of how many completely uninspired bosses we've had to fight in games.
It's like any other mechanic that becomes a staple (bamham/AC style combat, QTE's, xp style character progression) eventually the shit gets old and needs to get subverted or people start recognizing it as the lazy way of doing it because designers couldn't come up with anything better.
this.. never satisfied with Skullface gone with just that. They should've given us a boss fight. But Kojima really want to give us the Phantom Pain.
It worked for me...
goddamnit oh well
So the solution should be "stop making shitty boss fights" rather than "don't bother with them because ART."
Seeing as MGSV has bar none, the least inspired boss fights in the series (the simplest sniper duel since the PS1 era and "shoot the Metal Gear until it dies") when it actually does bother to have them, I'm not sure why you're attempting to defend it with that logic to begin with.
I think Sutherland phoned it in and Kojima was too much of a pussy to tell him he needed to do his lines again. So he just cut them at the last minute.
There's a reason stories end in climax. Because after you get rid of the obstacle there's no longer reason to continue the story because it gets boring for the audience. It's used in everything because it works. Just because something is widely used doesn't mean that you should go against it, just because you understand the concept.
>take out the english language
>world unites and we will be in peace forever
Amazing how they managed to pull off literally the worst plot in the entire history of entertainment whether it be movies, books or video games.
Bravo, fucking bravo.
Venom does not talk because he is mirror of yourself as a player. You are in fact Venom Snake, you as a human being are part of the plot. you are the paramedic who underwent the surgery.
If Snake was a bit more animated, or if the player wasn't allowed to dick off in their iDroid, or if Skullomania had a line getting flummoxed about Snake's silence, making it a little clear it's intentional and not just a weird script thing, the scene might have worked. Kojima's writing doesn't into subtlety so don't be surprised if people didn't catch your super deep meaning.
*dies in front of federal hall*
>didn't get the plot
>worst plot of all time guise
the plot was hardly anything intelligent but you're downright inbred if you thought the point of getting rid of english was for peace
skull face's plot is all out global war with no end in sight
listen to him on the jeep
>Kojima's writing doesn't into subtlety so don't be surprised if people didn't catch your super deep meaning.
But anon, there's plenty of subtlety in mgs. I don't know why there's this horrible reaction every time someone brings it up.
>without a unifying language, tied together not by words but by actions and beliefs.
Okay, so Snake (and Mother Base) speaks via the 80s Rambo routine. How on earth do they communicate, plan and coordinate complex missions without some form of verbal dialog?
Do they all just go dere and shoot dat?
>Snake's very existence proves Skull Face wrong. He doesn't need words to kill him.
Suppose Skullface was hiding in a super-secret bunker somewhere. How would Snake kill him then without Miller literally telling the where, when and how (as he does before every mission)?
Perhaps I've missed the point or I'm just an idort, but I don't see how Venom Snake or Mother Base could function at all without spoken language.
Skull Man may be able to temporarily halt the Illuminati's plans by releasing NANOMACHINES SON that magically erase people's brains if they know English, but that will only cause a short-lived collapse and history will simply repeat.
It's like when JC simply destroys the Helios facility like Tong advises him to do. Sure, JC stopped Bob Page but the Illuminati will simply reconstitute themselves in the future.
Erasing english doesn't do shit. If he had magical nanomachines then you have to go fully balls-deep like JC Denton did by merging with Helios.
Big Boss needs to become the Metal Gears if he wants to stop war (which he didn't, he's Omar and lusts for a future of eternal war which only the strongest emerge from--the Diamonds of Humanity, who will leave the war-ravaged dead husk of a planet and bring the Boss' eternal war to the rest of the cosmos)
You people do know that you had to press the action button during the jeep ride to make Venom have a conservation with Skullface, right?
Similar to how you can press it to make Venom say "kept you waiting, huh?" when you rescue Miller and he asks to hear the sentence for old times sake.
...of course mother base soldiers talk to each other.
Skull Face believes english wipes out cultures and freedom of thought (the language you speak conditions your behavior).
Snake is the leader of people tied together not by language, but by ideals.
I meant that Snake didn't need to speak in that specific jeep sequence. Skull Face says: "Language brainwashes people into fake societies" (language itself, not the act of communicating)
Snake says: "My people stand together not because they speak the same language, but beause they believe in the same ideals"
The reason Skull Face dresses the way he does is because he's referencing the Lone Ranger; a character who never had a secret identity. Complete with a Native American sidekick and all, no less.
He's the evil version of Venom, his dark reflection. Has his whole identity taken away but, unlike Venom who gets to play the part of Big Boss, never took on another identity. He was never given a real title or name, just being called "Skull Face" for convenience.
Meanwhile, it's his title and face that makes Venom into Big Boss. He doesn't sound like him, he doesn't act like him, he doesn't make quips like him, and the people who knew him closely all at the very least realised something was off about him. Same goes for us players; we all knew going in that he likely wasn't the real Big Boss, but we played a good 70+ hours as him anyway.
See, you COULD look at it through the lens of it being a super deep scene.
Or you could look at it through the lens of Skull Face being a huge fuckup, which is way funnier.
what's fucked up is they made an instrumental version of Sins of the Father, Skull Face was probably going to have some kind of boss fight or something. they didn't spend money to make an instrumental version of the song just for MGO3's sake seeing what kind of skeleton crew is managing it now. not fighting him at all was such a copout, you could have still accomplished that phantom pain by having the fight be really well designed and end abruptly, then recycle it for some kind of Extreme version that isn't interrupted. then you have the rest of the game with minimal boss fights, fighting only nameless grunts from then on.
I haven't beaten the game yet, but if this is Skullface's worldview, it's kind of dumb.
Does he believe western cultures will just disperse and begin to war without the ability to speak English?
The worst-case-scenario I can see is everyone will have to practice their cursive writing.
I buy it. There's deeper shit in the game
>Zero killed by a fake memento of The Boss sent my Skullface
>Skullface killed by a fake Big Boss, sort of another fake memento of The Boss, sent by Zero.
Because he had his mother tongue wiped out by english. He lost his language, family and culture repeatedly throughout his life to soldiers that conquered his people, so he wants revenge.
Yes, it's silly and over the top, it's mgs, that's the point.
Somebody post the copypizza with the "leave time for his rebuttals" bit
srs question: why does skullface look so burned all over his skin? Is it because of the foreign. soldiers. who raided his small village or what?
You're certainly entitled to you own opinion, but I still don't think you've shown that her design is much more than Kojima pandering to a horny male audience.
I chuckled when you wrote that she was "unable to wear clothes."
this scene was so bad.
Like the only thing worse I experienced in the series was Arsenal Gear in MGS2
Can't it be a little bit of both?
Half naked women (and men) were always part of mgs.
Quiet is very, VERY in-your-face about, especially the part where she is physically incapable of wearing clothes.
So can't he have seen what is going on with political correctness in modern media and decided to design his fanservice character around it?
I had no PS3 when MGS4 came out so I ended up watching a LP.
One of the funnier moments was a guy freaking out when they were realizing that they would be talking to Rose but then celebrating that she was totally optional because of how bad she was in 2
>Could you tell me what was bad?
Roy going full retard
Having to run around naked
Plot going full retard
Shit boss battles (you hardly had time to lock-on to the Rays and Solidus forced shit controls)
everything, since literature teaches you not to take things at face value
now, I can explain arsenal gear to you if you want, but I won't waste time with it if you're just going to spew "3deep5me" when I'm done
wanna hear it? i'll try to keep it short
>everything, since literature teaches you not to take things at face value
It was an AI getting corrupted by a virus, why bother listening to it?
>now, I can explain arsenal gear to you if you want, but I won't waste time with it if you're just going to spew "3deep5me" when I'm done
MGS4 gave a good summary on it, don't wast your time.
whoever said I liked MGS3? All I said was that MGS2 is the worst
Holy fuck you people are dumb.
He wanted to remove English because peoples reality are shaped by how they describe and define things, and because he saw English being used as another form of control.
He DID NOT WANT PERPETUAL WARFARE. He wanted EVERYONE to have nukes so no one would have the upper hand and be able to force themselves on countries or groups without nukes , like how Russia, China, and the US today even today. He wanted even the smallest idea to have the chance at life.
Skull Face was literally a good guy on a grand scale who was evil locally
Did you seriously think Roy Campbell was talking about scissors for "LOL SO RANDUMB HUMOR"?
Did you seriously think Raiden getting naked, the Arsenal Gear map being notoriously creepy, the program holograms at the floor, and that one fucking video of some Jap girl playing at the upper right corner of the screen wasn't all part of the bigger theme of MGS2's MEME theme?
Can't you appreciate any absurdism/surrealism bro?
>Did you seriously think Roy Campbell was talking about scissors for "LOL SO RANDUMB HUMOR"?
he was an AI corrupted by the virus at that point so I went with "the virus is making him say weird shit"
>Did you seriously think Raiden getting naked, the Arsenal Gear map being notoriously creepy, the program holograms at the floor, and that one fucking video of some Jap girl playing at the upper right corner of the screen wasn't all part of the bigger theme of MGS2's MEME theme?
that really didn't feel like anything related to a meme. Either the definition or the idea of spamming pics with stupid macros.
MGR did the whole meme thing better
>He wanted to remove English because peoples reality are shaped by how they describe and define things, and because he saw English being used as another form of control.
english is the most chameleonic and frankenstein-like language there is, no one single person or organization would be able to control it
what possible argument is there that english can be used to control thought that can't be applied to any other language?
you buy mgs2
you want to be snake
you get to be snake!
you play as faggy raiden
what is this shit?
I want to be snake!
raiden wants to be snake too.
or does he?
when arsenal gear starts off, you get a long cutsene with raiden's backstory, and it's a very violent, creepy story
it's the first thing about raiden that isn't a parallel to snake
he's naked because he's reborn
he won't grab people
he gets a cold and sneezes
he won't hang off ledges
he's not doing what you tell him too. he's shaking off the patriots' programming that wants him to be snake. he's shaking off your controls and your expectation that he will be just like snake. this culminates in him getting a sword that is unlike any weapon snake ever used.
memes span the whole game
all the weapons raiden uses are memes because snake used them too, all his moves and expectations about the game are memes intended to make him into snake 2.0
during arsenal gear, the memes fall apart and he breaks free.
>Snake does not talk
yes he does. in fact he is told by code talker to shut up because he has the parasite in his throat
I get it if what you're trying to say is Snake doesn't have any allegiance with any country but the fact remains that he speaks the languages of several of them
so the SOCOM isn't a meme by the time mgs2 pops up?
just because a weapon was in MGS1 and MGS2 doesn't make it a meme.
Or is the Moonlight Greatsword considered a "meme weapon"?
this tread really only confirms that the MGS2 fanbase has no clue what they are talking about
Try reading/watching at least ONE of these and you'll get what I mean mate.
>WHY IT'S OKAY TO QUESTION EVERYTHING
(ESPECIALLY METAL GEAR GAMES) (Wolf)
>An analysis on genetics, evolution and information regarding Metal Gear Solid 2:Sons of Liberty (Urbina)
>Metal Gear Solid 2 Story, Ending, Symbolism Analysis
>What Metal Gear Solid 2 Teaches Us About the Information Age (Iovanovici)
>Diving off the Map (Howell)
>MGS2: The Complete Breakdown
>The Metal Gear Solid 2 Grand Game Plan (Hideo)
>Critical Close-up: Metal Gear Solid 2 (George)
>Metal Gear Solid 2 Review (Matthew)
>Digital Foxdie, Special Options (Mad Jackyl)
Yes that would make the MLGS a meme. That isn't an insult, that's what meme means.
>an element of a culture or system of behavior that may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by nongenetic means, especially imitation
I mean, Raiden does worship and imitate Snake. His weapons are a part of that.
Maybe it's a stretch, but you can't have been here for more than a week if you're getting upset about somebody misusing the word "meme." This isn't a remarkable example.
The story that's there in MGSV is actually quite good, it was just butchered towards the end and not fleshed out as much as it should be. Kojima has always been amazing at doing stuff like this.
>when arsenal gear starts off, you get a long cutsene with raiden's backstory, and it's a very violent, creepy story
>it's the first thing about raiden that isn't a parallel to snake
what's also interesting to note is that the whole child soldier could be a representative of your gaming childhood. playing games like Doom and shit.
You get back to Shadow Moses and "The best is yet to come" starts playing.
Last time this song was in mgs, Snake had decided to quit war and live a peaceful life with Meryl
Nine years later he's alone, he's dying, and still fighting a war.
No best is yet to come for him.
>He believes he can force the world into perpetual war by taking out English
He didn't believe this at all, what he wanted to do was to bring about world peace by ending the tyranny of the world superpowers.
The first step was to undermine western hegemony and spread panic through the wider diplomatic community with the vocal chord parasites, the second and final step was to use this disruption to arm every country in the world with nukes.
Everyone would suddenly have the exact same bargaining power on the world stage and would no longer have to fear reprisals or sanctions from the United States or anyone else if they decided they don't want to play ball.
>what possible argument is there that english can be used to control thought that can't be applied to any other language?
im pretty sure that if you control english it will give you more power than if you control a remote african tribal language for example
I liked how Shadow Moses was old and decaying, the setting of MGS1 was going the same way as it's main character. MGS4 wasn't perfect but it really felt like the end, everything after just feels like an unnecessary spin off.
yes my friend
at a certain deep layer MGS4 is Kojima's Sucide Letter, but on deeper layers it turns into something way more.
its hard to explain. try reading some articles on MGS4.
MGS4 ruining MGS2 was the fans fault, not kojimas. plus, dont take everything at face value. MGS2 turning canon is just another set piece for the depressing gloomy-fest that is MGS4.
>There are people who didn't like arsenal gear
My favourite part of the game desu.