>>324121284 It's correct up to the FPS one, because there's plenty FPS out there that aren't CS/CoD that actually takes skill. Mobas truly are Warcraft 3 If all you had to control was one single hero unit, making it infinitely simpler, and RTS games truly a fast micro manager will always beat a slower but with a better strategy player.
Fighting games are the only competitive scene I respect and can see making waves on ESPN. It's a good spectator "sport" even though vidya isn't sports bevause you can see all the action and what both players are doing. For MOBA and FPS which are being forced hard as e-sports it's not viewer friendly because there so much useless jargon applied and the camera constantly swaps between players like an ADHD addled child.
Plus fighters take skill, if you lose you only have yourself to blame, you can just say your team was ass and holding you back.
>>324122943 RPG PvP - in its finest form - consists mainly of accumulating gear and then elbow dropping everyone just to show off. People get immensely butthurt, but it's fun as hell when you're the one who's stacked.
>>324123010 First off the recommendation is obviously highly skewed. Second is the change in how they decided to note it.
Instead could have easily described it similar to the others. Not sure about HoN, HotS and LoL definitely don't, but DoTA has a fairly decent skill ceiling, still has micromanagement, definitely has macro-management of a similar level to RTS games (which it admittedly states lack strategy and tactics), and fast reaction times are also necessary, sometimes as much as fighting games. The learning curve isn't as brutal as fighting games but it is pretty high if the MOBA has been out more than a few years (Due to sheer amount of items, characters, and interactions, then timing, and such after). Semi-frequent patches mean learning changes to meta and character interactions all over again in many cases as well.
FPS games I can't say, I'm not a fan and I'd probably fall for the lolbait of that picture.
>>324123226 You missed the time .There was a sweet spot in MMO gaming before it was monetized to literal hell worse than AAA games. Pretty much everythiong prior to 2004 when MapleStory's Cash Shop RoI showed how absolutely fucking disgusting microtransactions are.
I quite frankly wish that the EU as well as USA would just ban microtransactions being aimed at anyone under the age of 13, and strictly enforce it.
I don't even know how many kids I know that have wasted thousands upon thousands on fucking gachapon alone.
Hell, I know a kid I used to game with who would not only waste thousands on shit, over the course of a year he gifted the rest of us hundreds in CS stuff as well. Shit was mental.
>>324123328 But his not, he is literally selecting and deselecting drones to warm up or some shit Footage is also slowed down on the LoL side and sped up on his side.
Again its a brilliant example because this is what it always boils down to, people lying and pretending that the thing they like takes more skill while exaggerating the perceived flaws of the other side
>>324123404 To be fair it's not because it's cheap or poorly balanced. It's because there isn't enough characters and the ones that exist have boring designs and it's too simple. It's a perfectly playable game.
>>324123404 The quality of the game is irrelevant, Rising Thunder is proof that execution requirements are not the entry barrier to fighting games that people think they are. It's the refusal to take accountability for oneself and the lack of willingness to reflect and improve one's play.
>>324122838 >mobas >not viewer friendly Nope, there are a fucking TON of normies that play League. Walk around a campus library and it's guaranteed that a good chunk of people will be playing or watching a League game. Also FPS games are fine, there's not nearly as much jargon as mobas. I'd argue there's less jargon in FPS than Fighting games. >fighters take skill, if you lose you only have yourself to blame, you can't just say your team was ass and holding you back Mobas are probably closer to sports though in this regard, sports are rarely a 1v1 thing. I don't see why both team based and 1v1 vidya can't exist in the competitive scene, they're completely different games for completely different audiences.
The only thing that really makes me mad is that fucking LEAGUE is the moba of choice for esports. The game in which you have to UNLOCK characters to play with. This shit should not be allowed for a competitive game, but people lap that shit up like the good goyim they are. It then forces every other company to pull the same shit "BECAUSE LEAGUE DOES IT" and it's one of the biggest cancers to the genre. Shit like Smite does it right, pay once and unlock everything.
>>324123702 I mean I have like 1 hour of league and then uninstalled it but whatever makes you feel better. I'm just saying you are the typical example of this thread, a retard that knows nothing and just posts lies to make himself feel better
>>324123568 Don't forget there's plenty of heroes full of passives that makes the player literally need to only worry about one or two buttons all the game. But oh, there's so much strategy and mind game in it.
>>324123548 Ragnarok PvP was actually fun and there were many varied builds as well, so you're wrong there.
It's part of the reason I had high hopes for ToS but it's turning into the worst shit ever because IMC got in bed with nexon on it and no doubt will bring the korean shit over to us. It's almost DoA in Korea even.
>>324123612 You're wrong. I play MOBAs but you are fucking wrong, look at people waking in background. That sort of APM is necessary in SC2. That said, the LoL guy is jungling wihch is going to be much slower and also looks like a newb.
It's not like it's hard to get footage of eSports of both, but no one wants actual legitimate data here, when you can bait one side because 'why do their work for them'.
>>324123805 >look at people waking in background Yeah look at them, they slow the fuck down when the camera pans to the left and speed up when the camera pans to the right The guy on the SC is literally just slecting and deslecting to get warmed up for when the APM is needed, doesn't change the fact that what he is doing is literally 100% pointless
Fuck man I'm with defending you that MMOs weren't always shit, but WoW was so fucking garbage
Maybe if you said GW at least for the western side.
EQ2 was pretty okay but not pvp obviously.
>>324123839 The last 2 months have been almost nothing but monetization schemes. They disabled 1:1 trading, only let you put 1 thing on market at a time, and they put these things behind a 'Token' you can buy which is basically a monthly subscription, which in Korea right now is equivalent to $16/month. Also you get a 30% movement speed boost and some other shit. Even with token you can only have 5 items on market at a time. Production classes absically killed. They barely fixed any issues throughout all of kOBT despite this, just added more monetization schemes. Now, in January I think they've taken noticed and started doing a bit more, but they released hair changes costing $16 each, skill reset is $8 a pop, etc. you can even buy potions.
>>324123790 >the cry babbies like me Nice projecting, were did I ever say I found WoW's pvp to be unbalanced? It's just ridiculously boring. >>324123805 I'll be honest and go back and say that I did enjoy Ragnarok's PvP, but that was the only one that really did it right.
Concerning ToS we knew there'd be microtrans and shit. The production classes seemed a little OP but I donno. From what I played I liked, and I'd wait until the beta is over before shitting bricks. It's good to let them know they're fucking up but I wouldn't give up hope until they actually release the game.
>>324123928 For one very brief second at the start everything is sped up, but you still have time to check him out in normal speed without a problem, and it's much faster.
The comparison isn't 'fair' because of other things as stated, but that's not one of them and the slight speed increase at the VERY start is very short.
>>324124063 There is no best, there's barely good. Even back then MMOs were good because it was "Your first grind" so it felt worth it, maybe the first 2, 3, 5 times.If you were to go back to any of those now you would hate it. (Korean ones anyway!), American ones tended to have the Gear Progression shit which was just as bad.
If I had to rate a best MMO I'd say MapleStory oddly enough, it hit all the points it needed to, they just unfortunately weren't pushed back when they brought forth monetization, so it was hit like crazy.
>>324123790 I said nothing about the game's quality, because the quality seriously is in no way relevant to what I said. Its not just about input barriers, its about losing and not wanting to put in the work needed to win. In fighting games it's just you and the other guy. No one else to blame but yourself for failure, and there are no one else's coat tails are there for you to ride on. Why do you think team activities, especially MOBAs and shooters, are so popular in the first place.
>>324124152 We've been letting them know since icbt2/kcbt3. There are bugs that break classes still present from then while they work on this other shit.
The game is fun the first time around but it also has some core problems with it. Mainly that the game is based around the idea of unique classes, but leveling up is a strictly boring overly saturated questline of fetch and kill generic bullshit. Grinding isn't an alternative option even if funded, the 'Auto attack' based combat clearly favors specific classes (Swordsman, the only one they ever care about when balancing it seems), but they don't care and haven't made changes to it. The whole archer tree is literally a Stance trap.
But it's important that we don't let people trade 1:1 so we can make them pay for that. you know the last game that locked something so important behind a paywall? Rakion. IT fucking died a horrible death in US. Despite being a decent game.
>>324124342 Dude, developers have a flow. It's not always prioritized properly or specifically. Just because they're adding pay walls and micro and shit before they fix bugs doesn't mean they think it's more or less important, it just means they're finally getting around to adding or changing it.
>>324124458 Their original release goal was mid-2016 for iToS. kToS should be before that. With this flow it looks unlikely if that's their plan. They also had no need to test this so early and they did so at one of the worst times as well when they were already having a retention problem with Korean players.
>>324124698 I understand the concern but let's be honest, it's no GE or anything. I would have much preferred them to bring WolfKnights to the states instead. And if I were you I'd continue providing feedback and try to suspend your harsh criticism of ToS until they release newer versions. Because holy shit it may actually be fun.
>>324124972 I provide feedback constantly and played kOBT up until a few weeks ago (Went on vacation). Very little English feedback gets to them. What does is through that CM that's rather annoying of a fellow (John I think it was), he pushed some of my feedback through as well as some of /tosg/'s in general, but we'll see how far that actually goes. I'm not giving up on it and am watching it and going to keep an eye, but even some of the stuff in their surveys they're just no fixing despite overwhelming responses one way or another. Like the AA-focused combat.
>>324121284 The only thing you can take away from this image is that the creator liked playing RTS and fighting games.
>>324123150 So apm is going to your metric for skill? Seems pretty autistic. Its meant to a be a strategy game, there are dozens of online tools for measuring your apm online, just try to get a high score on that?
>>324123150 I love this webm. You can see that the starcraft player is just randomly selecting different shit and checking the progress on stuff and overall just literally doing nothing but trying to increase the apm stat.
>>324125435 Golf is a sport appreciated only by people that know golf and play golf.
Then again fighting games do have moments that translate into great videos so hockey probably is more correct seeing as people can't tell the difference between low level play and high level play in hockey or fighting games.
Explaining zone spacing to force an input at half screen that opens a optimum damage combo just looks like fireball spamming.
i think this might finally be the year that people realize that they don't have to play every MMO and just avoid the ones that are not amazing and go crazy on monetization. Devilian took a HUGE blow with it's first week turn out, game was semi-decent, but was crazy monetization.
ToS could face similar feelings. Swordsman have the least amount of bugs too, most shit revolves around them. The whole archer tree is so fucked up, so many bad design choices like missile penalty, wizards got a lot of weird bugs as well, so does cleric, but Priest is so strong and melees so it doesn't matter in most cases.
>>324125660 Yes, literally nothing but waiting. The only reason he is doing this twitch shit is to increase his apm and feel good. Or if you are really going to be positive, he is "warming up". I did that too at the start of a match. Its boring to just look at your base and wait.
>>324125038 >implying dynamic metas are really a thing >100 items that are builded the same by certain heroes/champions every time >100 heroes/champions but only 20 are actually strong in the current update and used on competitions >cooldowns and mana actually being complicated Nice game
>>324125751 Yeah but that won't happen for a while. I pretty much check out every MMORPG that's got minimal hype because I'm praying for this, but I know it'll be another 5-10 years minimum. We're unfortunately cusping VR tech and VRMMORPG concept is very appealing, so why go super hard in that now when VR is around the corner, the first stage will be a 2yr life cycle and then the second cycle should have many things thinned out. 10~ years in (3rd-5th cycle~) people might be able to VR on a $500 system instead of $2k thus widening MMO audience greatly, and something can be done.
The state of gaming overall is to remake something in genre with a slight twist and release it, then see how that fairs and repeats however. The MMO has gone so far from what it needs to be, that if they did that it would take decades.
I personally have 2 ideas I think could really work out, but I don't have the wherewithal to work towards it myself.
>>324125805 at that moment doesn't because the game is just getting started, but if you really played RTS you should know further down the game you actually have to be competent at micro managing and that ridiculously high APM, right? Then I don't see the point you're arguing for.
>>324123790 >Do you play SF4? If so I'll body you right now. You really wouldn't WizardFaggot, we've already been over the fact that you're bad and mad a million times.
You had to leave Australia because out FGC kicked you out for being such a salty faggot. Now you're an online warrior with your 3000bp and your constant ragequitting. Theres at least 10 videos of you being a salty cunt up on YT right now.
>>324125872 >you dont have to learn this shit as a new player regardless of how trivial it is to an experienced one >expecting to get out of the trench ever without knowing at least important cooldowns and abilities >thinking casual gamers arent going to nope the fuck out after seeing all the shit they have to know when they could just play cod
>>324126058 The point I am arguing is that selecting random shit real wast to boost APM is easy. Even a scrub like me could do it. Microing units with an actual intend is something else entirely and I am going to presume that this guy would slow the fuck down if this wasnt random but intentional.
>>324126192 So you're a dota player. I do agree that to actually get to 4k+ MMR, you do need to be not stupid. But that doesn't stop casuals from playing it, I have plenty of casual friends that are on low rankings and still think they know shit and watch the competitions.
All of these games have companies pouring money into them. The Prize pool for Capcom cup was 250.000, same as Hearthstone for Blizzcon but aside from that, the prize money comes from the people playing the game and PARTICIPATING in the tournaments.
The average Hearthstone player has no chance to even get into such a tourney, meanwhile I could walk into any Capcom tournament and just participate for a measly 10-15 bucks entry fee.
THAT'S the difference between the genres, on one side you have commercialized esports and on the other side, actual skill is rewarded.
Pro players don't get a free pass, they all start from scratch in every single tourney and still manage to come out on top, upsets are actually possible.
"Good" players can't make any money in the games you've mentioned, meanwhile I've made ~300€ through moneymatches and tourney prizes in the last 2 years just by being passionate about fighting games without even trying to go pro.
>>324122838 You would think but because of how much skill they take compared to the two biggest genres, FPS and MOBA, low skill players (the general populace) is turned off to playing it, and less players means less viewers.
Like, what's the greatest sport every made? The very best designed one. I can guarantee you it's likely not Football. But popularity snowballs and people don't like having to learn new systems so they stick with what they know!
Do you even know how much they push as a company? Their feet are under desks 90% of the time, a Nike sponsorship is a waste, they can't wear much Nike swag either, headbands/etc are a no cause of headsets, so that leaves shirts/pants, wow.
McDonalds? "Walk in with le burger", McDonalds needs to stay as far away from gaming sponsorships as possible, we have enough fat gamers.
>>324126587 Considering how retarded you are it doesn't surprise me to see how that confused you. It's not like a basketball player can play basketball in an Audi but they still get sponsored by them. That just means in real life they drive the car around and appear in their ads.
The whole point is that no one outside of places that have a vested interest in selling a particular niche of goods are sponsoring players in every esports field.
What the fuck does Verizon have to do with football? Nothing, but they sponsor guys that run around grabbing ass and chasing an egg.
That's the point. No one is being sponsored by anything. These guys are just buying space to be at events.
>>324126801 valve pays for your team's plane tickets you dumb faggot.
Show any "professional" fighting games pro the amount of money Dota 2 rakes in and they would dream of switching games. But they're too fucking stupid to understand dota and they'd probably calibrate at 2,000 mmr or some shit.
>>324126790 >I saw a 15 year old kid from pakistan become a millionaire in less than a year with nothing but hard work and dedication. You mean connections, sponsors and the donations of retards right?
Could you imagine how big EVO pots would get if you allowed any retard to put money into the pot outside of actually signing up? Valve only puts forward around 1.5mil every year because they have no real faith in the game, anon. They leave it up to the idiots who play it to fund it, and most are doing it for cosmetics anyway to make some steam wallet money.
If you're skilled enough, you'll get sponsored and it'll become a job. Your salary from Razer, Madcatz or AVerMedia will be to be godlike. Keyword being you in you're. Not relying on your team, not grouping as a 5 and winning due to the fact that you just outnumber people and get free kils, YOU. YOU have to be godlike, YOU need the reactions, YOU need the reads, YOU need to be seeing 10 steps in front of the person you're playing against while realizing he's thinking 10 steps in front of YOU.
>>324126790 Yes, there's more money in Dota you made that point about a million times now but that's only due to Valve and they're the only company going this far as well.
Meanwhile Daigo is actually a Star in Japan, wrote his own bestselling book, is the Star of his own Manga and makes a lot of money just by living off his name. Still haven't seen anyone give enough shits about Dota 2 to reference it in actual media. Enough money so he donated his recent winnings to the community.
>don't give me that grass roots bullshit How about don't give me that corporate bullshit, the important figures in the FGC are all there because they have been there for over a decade.
>>324126790 >>324127146 To be fair here, as I've talked with several pro LoL streamers and a few of them used to browse here long ago. The majority of their money comes from streams and subs/etc. You have to be a showman, have good connections, those connections should help you get sponsors, preferably get on a good team due to the same. Knowing people and knowing how to handle yourself when it comes to things like sponsorship and be proactive is huge, and not just that despite it all you still need to make sure that you are streaming often and are good enough to keep a good sized crowd.
Sponsors are money, but they're not the bulk by far. Someone doing extremely good has around 2,500-3k subs if they follow this. 1k-2k is probably what sumail has give or take. Assuming base rate that's $2.50 per month per sub. That's $2,500-$5,000 a month. There's also donations on top of that which usually aren't small and there are sponsors (Probably a few hundred a month).
>>324127256 >No one would put money in it because they're all fucking 12 year olds. You mean the 12 year olds asking their parents to give them money to buy Compendium / Compendium Points for a shitty courier and a hud? and the chance at a legendary they can sell and buy Garrys Mod with?
Honestly take a good hard look at the earnings of DotA2 players, and then subtract the donations of retards through compendiums. Leave only the raw pool Valve adds. They wouldnt even be in the top 50.
Valve put about what? 1.5mil into each TI? They get beat by Riot and Riot doesnt even jew players out to add money to Worlds Pool.
Valve has absolutely no faith in DotA2 because DotA2 is garbage and they know it, but you faggots keep eating it up. Have you not asked yourself why they dont put money from keys/cases back into the CS:GO tournament pools?
>>324127620 Considering they only put 25% of compendium profits back into the TI prize pool and you idiots gave them SIXTY SEVEN FUCKING MILLION ON DIGITAL ITEMS, they can take a fraction of that and make 3 more events, and they'll still ask for more money when TI6 comes around and you idiots will pay because m-m-muh hud or m-m-muh faceless rex carrier
>>324127953 Daigo has a problem, a real problem. He's fantastic at long set play but has a choking problem in double elimination.
Nigga still almost took the final SF4 tournament though.
But yeah he's a minor celeb in Japan. A couple of the Japanese pros have radio shows and shit. Momochi and Choco have a show on one of their educational networks alongside the show they do for Capcom from time to time.
You have to remember though Daigo is basically the Dr.J of FGC.
>>324127953 >That's a lot of fame for someone who gets bodied so much. He doesnt even have to try, he just has to show up. He's making more off his Madcatz salary then the tournaments put out. Madcatz wouldnt even think about losing their sponsorship of a legend, because he'll get right back on track, win an evo and another sponsor will gladly take him in.
>>324128987 To be honest as someone who watches and plays both on a moderate level,LoL is a LOT easier to watch. DoTA only had a respectably comparable turnout when they had that 'noob' channel, which was hit or miss really with explanations.
One thing LoL does extremely fucking well is make them game pleasant and simple to watch.
>>324128808 >lol pros are literal twitch beggars >Get paid a salary by Riot >Get paid a salary by their Team >Get paid bonuses by sponsors >Have 5 days to stream when they arent playing LCS matches >Every other DotArd is a poor faggot besides the ones that win the donations of retards by pure luck
5 DotArds are millionares Every other player is working a McDonalds job.
Every LoL player is getting money for existing and being good at the better and more skilful game
>>324126221 >you don't have to do stuff as fast as in starcraft ii that is why mobas are better that is what you are saying you are literally saying that because this guy isn't doing top tier competitive play, mobas are better
This is your opinion is wrong, and it shows how shallow your experience with FPS games is, and I'm not talking about muh arena shooters.
Even games like CoD reward you for teamplay and map knowledge, although devs try their best to diminish those and encourage reflex-only braindead running and gunning by shitty map designed around corridors leading into chokepoints, shit respawn system, TDM and FFA being main gamemodes with little incentive playing anything else because "muh overall less xp".
This applies to the newer Battlefields aswell, where you can see the BF2 maps being least favorite by pugs because of large open terrain, combined arms combat and being 5+ flags, requiring actual teamwork to win.
TL:DR FPS is only as shitty if you decide to play it shittily. Play with your friends and use tactics. Play custom matches against premades.
Also esports scene is a joke. It's only about how popular a game is with viewers
>>324121284 Fighters really aren't hard to get into and even function in local tournaments unless you're in cali or ny, tekken and sf are not complex games and both have a skill floor about on par with CoD even if they have a higher skill ceiling
Arena shooters and especially rts are way, way harder to get into
>>324138316 Many characters focus around RTS elements, c'mon.
Even checking enemy basic information like their mana forces you to click on them and look like an RTS unlike Lol that makes all information you could possibly use available just on the screen normally.
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