>Decide to try XIV >Combat is literally "push the button" >Fetch quests galore >"I've lost my sandwiches" >Get into a big battle >Visual effects everywhere, can't process what's going on, resort to looking at bars and numbers for half an hour >None of the quests are dynamic, play no part in the world at large >Dialogue never gets to the point >Shit cluttering the screen everywhere >Changing class requires ridiculous amounts of grinding
>>324087757 so it's okay to just post lies now? did you even play the game? changing classes is as easy as going to the trainer and signing up for the guild, unlocking the upgraded job ios just level 15 subclass and 30 main class which takes no more than 3 hours to do all in all. The dialogue is well-written and the world changes dynamically, quests actually do have an impact if you'd bother to read. I'm just gonna stop there, too lazy to point out all the wrong shit in your post
An operant conditioning chamber permits experimenters to study behavior conditioning (training) by teaching a subject animal to perform certain actions (like pressing a lever) in response to specific stimuli, such as a light or sound signal. When the subject correctly performs the behavior, the chamber mechanism delivers food or another reward. In some cases, the mechanism delivers a punishment for incorrect or missing responses.
I despise MMOs for a number of reasons. The main one being that they tend to offer grindy content instead of fun content in order to keep subscriptions. Every single MMO I've played felt like a second job, because I was running on a treadmill thinking that I just "had to get past this boring stuff" in order to get to the fun content, only to realize that none of it is actually fun.
Combat is also a huge fucking yawn in MMOs. Rotate between a few abilities. Most of the time, you set up macros so you don't have to push the buttons to activate those abilities because it's so tedious and boring.
The best MMO I played was RuneScape back in the day. You know why? Because I could do something else while I was playing. I could click on a tree or a monster and just read an article or watch a video. I can't do that when I'm playing something like WoW or FFXIV and it's a fucking bore. Tells you a lot about the genre and why it's on its way out.
>>324086729 I don't even remember, man. I played MMOs hardcore 24/7 -- namely EverQuest and WoW, but almost every single one in between -- for ~15 years of my life. It made sense when you didn't have much going on in your life and the fake bar-filling made you feel like you were accomplishing something. The community helped give you a sense of inclusion and social interaction, but it was just a matter of time until everyone left for IRL.
It took almost 2 decades to finally realize there's no fucking point to the skinner box bullshit, and I wasted 10,000's hours that I could have spent playing other vidya and shit. The evil spark is finally gone.
>>324086729 Menial task for that little surge of dopamine courses over you when you level up. You could say the same for a shit ton of video games. In the words of some random dude's blog
"video games are meant to distract and dismay. they are meant to be commodified and marketed and sold for profit. they are meant to trick you and to lie to you. there are some games that are genuinely born from artistic currents running through the author, but they are so few and far between that you are safe condemning the entire medium"
"MMOs are the worst offender in this regard. the idea of ‘grinding’ is sickening to me and i routinely shock and baffle myself when i see my hands hitting the keys for no other reason than to change a few bits on a server far away. that is all you are doing: trading your life to invert some transistors somewhere. you are tricked into thinking you are accomplishing something, but you are doing the exact opposite of that. you are repeating an effortless task for no reason. and you are paying for that privilege"
>>324086729 I started playing MMOs with Runescape/EQOA after playing dotHack. The biggest draw is the idea that you're playing with thousands of other real people. Gankers in PvP areas, guilds invading dungeons, etc all hade a huge draw to them. Using forums to spread information or schedule meets in game was also a fun side bit.
But then Wikia sites & WoW showed up. The communities are being torn to pieces in favor of streamlined casual fetch quests & Brazillion p2w shitfests. Right now Crowfall sounds like the closest you can get to the original feel they brought, but chances are MMOs are just going to be shit until 2020 or beyond. Part of the issue is that technology just can't really solve issues related to latency & distance to make gameplay improvements, and nobody wants to drop it down to regional locales. A game like PSO can better encompass the draw while improving gameplay, but we only get those from shitty companies like Sega & Capcom. And even then a good portion of releases are delay or JP only.
>>324089282 You must be quite young to say that, considering there have been wikis for games like DAoC since the year 2000 (which predates the creation of runescape classic). You also blame WoW for "streamlined casual fetch quests" which is pretty uninformed because WoW barely had any quests when it was released, and most of those quests were insanely hardcore grind-heavy slogs or extremely long hardcore fetch quests that gave you no direction whatsoever.
>>324089870 I'm only 26 :^( I base my comparison against games like FFXI where you could receive a quest & have no indication at all of where to go unless you knew the lore. Wikia sites were not nearly as common as they are now. And even when you did find them you would often find misinformation or a complete lack of it on more obscure quests & endgame bits.
In theory appeal of mmo is: massive sandbox where you and a closely bonded community explore and advance the never ending story.
People go on and on about how WoW has turned to shit, and I agree it isn't the same, and while I again agree that Blizzard has done some bad things recently and that garrisons have destroyed the the old adventurer feel of wow, i think the lose of community is the biggest reason wow sucks right now.
People think back to vanilla and say, those were the good ol' days. Was grinding out 16,000 mobs back in the Ahn'Qiraj really all that great? People bitch and moan about fucking apex dailies now a days and those are much better then vanilla grinds were. What people miss i think was while you were grinding out 16,000 mobs, you did so with people that you could call friends, your guild was a family that you did battle with.
Whats better, more advanced raids with strangers who dont say a word so they may as well be Ai, or simple raids with family.
Remember the old days of tarren mill vs hillsbrad? Community driven events were players felt invested in their own minigame they created.
I used to be ok with MMOs... then i got a job, so when my heart is asking for boring, neverending tedium, i get payed for it 5 days a week. Course, my co-workers play WoW and such to to each their own.
MMOs are like anime, 95% of them are complete shit and exactly the same. But when you find that one hidden gem that really works and is extremely enjoyable, it's like nothing else in the world. A good MMO is one that offers challenging gameplay that doesn't have any grind and focuses on teamwork as well as individual skill. A really good MMO has that as well as MMO-specific immersion features like well done player housing, crafting, and guilds. I have yet to find a really good MMO, the only MMO I've ever played that has good combat and no grind is Guild Wars 2.
>>324090801 eve is pretty cool for how advanced the community has become, for how you have players doing shit like creating their own goverments and pulling spy type shit, but the gameplay/ui is like taking a shot of novacain. the shit is bland as fuck and the title may as well be called excel the game.
>>324091195 I understand that completely, and I have zero desire to play it, but as far as generating a persistent world that is the result of the aggregate of everyone's actions it is truly amazing. Everyother other MMO is glorified Farmville with group chat.
The fact that its one gigantic world that I can explore and fucking around in. Unfortunately thats exactly what the modern generation doesnt want, so they destroy masterpieces like Black Desert by demanding less and less sandbox elements because they dont like other players having an impact on their game play experience.
>>324088197 there is no need to shill for the game, although you are right in the sense that changing class just takes going to the guild (and equipping a weapon), leveling more than one class (combat: DoW or DoM) is actually really grindy as you only have the story class quests, FATEs and ad infinitum dungeons.
>>324088273 bullshit, FFXIV has been the only game where I have seen that healers are expected to DPS, even if their DPS is a minor contribution to the fight and can cause the healer to mess up priorities.
>>324091936 >65 But seriously, grinding a class to max from 50 is impossible. I have absolutely no motivation to do that shit anymore. I kind of feel bad for quitting though because I miss my guild mates
>>324091936 >dat exponential curve at 60 I leveled a bard all the way to 60, then got bored and started leveling SMN to 53, then got bored of the pet micromanagement and got a rogue to 60 then got bored of the game itself...
>>324088551 >I despise MMOs for a number of reasons. The main one being that they tend to offer grindy content instead of fun content in order to keep subscriptions. Every single MMO I've played felt like a second job, because I was running on a treadmill thinking that I just "had to get past this boring stuff" in order to get to the fun content, only to realize that none of it is actually fun.
I wasted so much of my early to mid teenage years playing virtually every MMO that released in the West. The grind back then was way worse than it is now, and I'd always burn out and find a new one, all with the same thinking that "once I'm endgame, the fun will start!"
I achieved endgame in ARR a month or two after it's release. That's when I found out how terrible it was; if not how terrible the entire genre is. Swore off MMOs since. It's the biggest skinner box scheme in gaming.
At least the friends I made in FFXI were genuinely awesome people. Only level I made it to was somewhere in the mid-20s. That sort of knit community in MMOs no longer exists, unfortunately. Not to mention the appeal of a 'virtual world'; everything is a themepark now, everything static. And the mystery is gone. No more adventure, everything datamined before patches and updates are even released and put on database sites.
The problem is in modern MMOs, player reputation as an individual doesn't really matter outside of "oh, I know Anon plays X Job. We need X Job." For example, in FFXI if you were a shitter it was really hard to get by because everyone knew you were a shitter and would proactively avoid you.
A lot of people play MMOs for the escapism factor. They may be some neckbeard in real life, but in game they may the most badass motherfucking rogue you've ever seen that deals five dicktillion damage every microsecond. Obviously, people would want to run raids and dungeons if you are really good at your job/class, and people may even seek you out to fill a specialized role if you are the best in that role. Now, if reputation doesn't matter, there's no reason to try to be that badass rogue anymore. You can be a shitter and run the same things everyone else can. Now your reputation is based on real life qualities again: social ability. The game kind of turns into a how far you get is based on "who you know" rather than your ability as an individual.
The only people who care about open world PvP are gankers who want to stealth behind people 40 levels below them. Then when every newbie gets tired of places being camped the PvPers leave too because they have no more targets.
>>324099342 That was one of the great things of Pre-CU, I think. The skill point and character limits force everyone to find a specific niche that they find gratifying, and it made for a really interesting community. I liked going out into the wilds to tame pets/mounts for people and harvest animal resources for my crafter friend.
I wish that they never let FF11 die. It was such a unique game. None of this shit like we have today where they force players to play one singular way and throw locks on everything to keep you from progressing faster than they can make content. FF11 DID have lockouts on some things but it wasn't nearly to the degree that it is with ff14.
In FF11 you not only had to level your job, but you had to skill up your weapons and magic. THEN you had to go hunt down specific pieces of gear to swap in and out for different abilities and magic. THEN you would have to make special macros or download plugins for windower and program the shit to swap gear in and out for things. Being good at the game definitely took a lot more work than just "here dodge this red circle or line" bullshit. Gear was so much more interesting and you had to actually socialize and sometimes even be a decent person to get shit done. The sense of community was so much better, that and if you were doing endgame content you could have legitimate rivalry guilds for content and getting shit done. It felt SO good being part of a great linkshell and rubbing our success in other's faces when we beat them at doing something.
Crafting was useful too and crafters were paid and well known for being useful in the community. Crafting took a lot of time and money to do as well and it paid off a fuckload if you actually made it through all the bullshit it took to get it leveled. None of this gay omnicrafter casual shit.
FF11 generaly had way darker and more interesting stories and characters as well. People actually fucking died. Some people were also erased from existence. None of this "oh look they're alive haha arent we stinkers?" bullshit with heavensward.
I could suck ff11's dick all day and talk shit about ff14 being bad but there.
>>324090682 >guild wars 2 >good >no grind >saying a good mmo need player housing, crafting, and guilds when guild wars 2 fuck the crafting, screw the guild, and there virtual no player housing And no, Guild Hall is not a player house. It couldn't even do Lich right.
>>324098974 CU was alright. NGE with the jedi is what kills it
>>324100248 NGE took the game and went from a system that had no numbered levels and 34 professions to one that had only 10 professions and your typical levels attached. NGE also let you start out as a jedi instead of having to go through the previous process to unlock it.
>>324100248 The main thing it change is changing the skill base game into class based game. There are levels now instead of just what skill you know. The choice is extremely limited, some classes does not exist anymore ie beastmaster and TKA, and what is suppose to be rare jedi is now a jedi fest with everyone being a jedi.
In other words, it became the FIRST WoW Clone because that is what the Luca Art/SoE's intention.
>>324100456 CU added combat levels, but it was more of an approximation based on your learned skills. NGE revamped the whole thing into 10 linear-progression classes and basically went the "we want the WoW audience" route.
The thing is: in the end, NGE wasn't terrible. After a lot of work, the actual combat was actually kind of fun for the first time in the game's long history. That said, it couldn't undo the irreparable damage done to the community.
>>324101068 Yeah. Like I said, it was basically an approximation based on how many combat skills you had and what tier they were. The general profession system was left largely intact.
I didn't care for the combat levels, because it took some of the ambiguity out of encounters with real players. As an unassuming musician, I liked to pick a fight with a cocky new hunter in the cantina only to unleash 3 trees worth of Teras Kasi skill on them.
>XI was near perfect during the CoP-ToAU era >SE doesn't bother merging dead servers >Introduces Level Sync instead >Entire 1-75 experience now consists of 5-6 zones >Finally decide to do something about RMT several years too late >Everything about Abyssea
Is shitting on your own game some weird Japanese thing I don't understand?
>>324100920 All they had to do was implement the faster WoW-like combat system but keep the original SWG profession and skill points system, and keep Jedi a special thing instead of making them a basic class. It could have been fine.
>>324101918 >and keep Jedi a special thing instead of making them a basic class. It could have been fine. Not him but the casual faggots complain bout being to grindy to be a jedi and want to be a jedi right away. Guess which side did the dev listen to about the jedi issue. That and nowadays, you can't go a second of having anything related to Star Wars without fucking jedis.
>>324101850 Times change. Audiences change. People grow up. You can't keep an online game on the same formula for decades. Same thing with WoW. Its not dying because of simply accessibility, its dying because people are finally tiring of the formula.
>>324102080 Exactly this. It's a big reason why NGE was implemented, and the whole inability to stomach any content not centered around Jedi has been shitting up Star Wars media for years. I have faint hope that Rogue One might rekindle that flame.
>>324102171 It took me longer in W* for me but I wasn't queuing for dungeons.
And yeah, Alert made leveling easy and I don't really see anything wrong with it, really. The Freeform system is actually one of the better system out there due to the huge customization of skill selection and how you can be godlike with the right build and it has a top tier character appearance customization, but it's too bad that the Freeform is behind a paywall.
Call it trivial all you want but it felt more rewarding leveling something and working on something for more than 2 days and having the game ejaculate boring gear at me. I tihnk casual scum like you are the reason MMOs are shit these days anyways.
>>324086729 If anybody wants a decent mmo, check out project1999, it's one of the only MMO's which actually has something of a community left. Only problem is, the grind is fucking TERRIBLE, literally worse than runescape. At least in rs you technically didn't have to grind like a dog in order to make some dosh, in this game, the grinding is necessary in order to get anywhere in the game. This, combined with the common '99 bullshit bugs means the game can sometimes be extremely frustrating. The main reason I quit was because, while I was traveling to a new leveling zone, I stopped at an NPC camp to talk to them, every 5 seconds a crowd of goblin lords (30-something) would walk up and aggro and me (Even though there were NPC's defending me), I died around 4 times this way before I managed to drag my corpse to a tent, guess what? A tidal lord managed to oneshot me through the goddamn tent. I lost about 100 plat on that corpse (gear included), I just decided fuck it, and never went back.
Mmm another faggot who wants to feel 'accomplished' instead of having fun. Boy it's a good thing I have some actual accomplishments in life so I don't have to reply on that shit. But yeah have fun... or no fun, rather.
Me neither. I had a lot of fun with the game while I was playing it and had a lot of fun times roleplaying. A shame that my group of friends kinda disbanded. But thank God for customization of that level.
But you don't need to have a shitty life to get hooked on MMORPGs, just some unfulfilled psychological needs.
Just look at the Maslow's hierarchy of needs and you'll notice that most MMOs can fulfill any of the needs above the physiological ones. This is one of the reasons why some weak-minded faggots get addicted to MMORPGs more easily than other types of vidya.
Now, I'm not bashing this kind of games, it's just that many mmos just abuse this and forget about providing more interesting gameplay than just putting their players on grinding treadmills, which is sad, because I think the medium has potential for more than just that.
the golden age of mmos was really something else, so many good memories. swg, daoc, coh, eq2, then of course came wow. lots and lots of good times of hanging out and executing good teamwork or just chatting about nothing while you leveled. i'll always remember that first ragnaros kill and countless vc runs. don't care what anyone says mmos were fucking fun and nothing will take that away from me.
>>324102694 The problem isn't the amount of grinding; it's the type of progression that games are using nowadays.
In FFXIV, you grind out points to purchase gear that is relevant to content at that given time. This gear is going to be replaced with another purchasable set of gear in a number of patches when content that is more difficult is released, making the original set of gear completely useless when the new gear comes out. This is vertical equipment progression.
In FFXI, the stronger gear was either usually incredibly expensive or a reward from some long quest. While there are some end-all "ideal" gearsets, it is possible to make an almost identical set of gear with different pieces depending on how much work you were willing to put into your equipment. You might have a body piece that is the best body piece to use abilities in, but that same body is absolute garbage for any other purpose; you would instead use a body that is the best for that particular purpose. This required knowledge of game mechanics and how they interacted with each other to provide an optimal result. (i.e. knowing how fast cast worked in relation to spell speed while still paying attention to haste in a fastcast equipment set) This gear may or may not be replaced in the future, but even if it is replaced, most of the time it was still usable or even superior depending how you set up the rest of your equipment. This is horizontal gear progression.
Vertical progression requires less thought from the game dev's position. They just have to make a new gear set that is slightly better than the previous best gearset. The utility of the original gear set doesn't matter when anyone can replace the previous set of gear by accumulating points.
Horizontal progression requires the dev to be cognizant of the game's mechanics, the type of gear it is, the stats on it, all while understanding the meta of how the players will use that piece of gear.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the shown content originated from that site. This means that 4Archive shows their content, archived. If you need information for a Poster - contact them.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content, then use the post's [Report] link! If a post is not removed within 24h contact me at email@example.com with the post's information.