Can we talk about NPC AI for a second?
Lets start with TES & Fallout. With Oblivion, NPCs had a certain amount of dynamic ability within their scheduling, and personality traits such their responsibility level would feed into it. For example, some NPCs with low responsibility would steal from around them or pickpocket other NPCs (often failing), if they wanted something but didn't have it in their inventory. This and some other small dynamic abilities that made them interact with the world really added to the unpredictable feel of the game, made it feel alive.
Then Skyrim hits, and those dynamic abilities have been stripped away for whatever reason. Even their scheduling has been stripped down to bare bones, and they never do anything unpredictable at all. same thing over and over, very little world interaction with a purpose. Sure they have some extra idle animations to make it look their doing things, but there's nothing going on beneath the hood. It's just eye candy.
Fallout 4 seems to be the same radiant AI from skyrim but tweaked for the fallout universe, has anyone noticed any specific AI improvements/changes?
The point? Oblivion is a DECADE old and in terms of AI freedom in an open world, it's probably still the best we have. The only other franchise that calk about having decent, dynamic AI is S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Why is this? Does your average gamer simply not care about the immersion factor and unpredictability that AI freedom can bring to a game? For me good AI can make a game feel alive, I like not knowing exactly what's going to happen or not knowing what I'm going to come across because things happen due to AI decisions.
>For example, some NPCs with low responsibility would steal from around them or pickpocket other NPCs
I'll call bullshit on that. Like 500+ hours of playing Oblivion and I don't think I've ever seen anything even close to that.
The best thing about the Oblivion AI was how they had to dumb it down, before release some characters would get spiteful and go out to kill pickpockets that had stolen from them. Wish they'd kept that in the game to be honest.
>Can we talk about NPC AI for a second?
Then you've not been paying much attention.
City swimmer, pic related, would end up dead all the time because of trying to pickpocket food from other NPCs. Ongar in Bruma would do it aswell sometimes, I've watched him get punched to death because he tried to pickpocket an NPC in front of ~5 other NPCS in a tavern.
Check the notes
>"Due to her low responsibility, it is not uncommon for her to be pursued by the guards and killed for pickpocketing. To temporarily prevent this simply place food near her."
Why do people in here have such a big nostalgia boner for Oblivion that they're now literally making stuff up?
Oblivion'sRadiant "AI" was a laughingstock for months after it was released. They might've as well just replaced it with a random number generator deciding on random scripted actions. In fact, many people assumed that was the case. Even Morrowind had better AI than Oblivion.
Skyrim's was still shit considering how much time they had to improve upon Oblivion's garbage AI, but it was still infinitely better.
>we will never have the original Oblivion AI before it was gutted
Feels bad man
Notice a pattern? It's not that people don't care, it's that people -don't notice-.
What's the point of having an interesting, dynamic AI when only maybe 1 in every hundred people ever experience it?
I remember the first time that happened to me, it freaked me out. I swear if you dropped heaps of valuable stuff in Skyrim that people would steal it and fight over it and shit like that.
The best thing was what modders where able to do with it.
OOO added extra adventurers/raiders who would randomly delve into ruins just like the player could, and they'd actually loot bodies/chests as they want. They'd be quite unpredictable, some would be friendly and wouldn't mind you being there and taking loot, some would turn on you if you took loot but they wanted it etc. It was great.
Except your wrong. Nothing has been mentioned in this thread that's made up. If you where active in the modding scene, you'd have seen the differences between oblivions & skyrims AI capabilities talked about in length by some of the best technical modders. It's 100% fact that on the whole, the overall dynamic abilities was cut down in skyrim, to save performance & stop "silly things from happening".
Then the game should bring the player's attention to that. I didn't know the NPCs eat food in Oblivion, because in other games they don't, but when I was doing the Dark Brotherhood quests, I was told I can place a poisoned apple in someone's inventory and it would kill them. I was surprised.
If you're talking about the thiefs in riften in skyrim, yes that's a scripted radiant event.
In oblivion though, there was a few NPCs who could dynamically chose to steal based on their AI. It wasn't a scripted event. Thry'd often get caught and guards would kill them over bread.
Now this is an example of a scripted event. It gets triggered when you have certain companions IIRC (not sure if they NEED to be companions, but more common for me), but if you drop a weapon or armour sometimes it'll trigger an event where two NPCs will fight over it. It's not actually the NPC AI thinking "oh, I want that".
Now this is an example of a scripted event. It gets triggered when you have certain companions IIRC (not sure if they NEED to be companions, but more common for me), but if you drop a weapon or armour sometimes it'll trigger an event where two NPCs will fight over it. It's not actually the NPC AI thinking "oh, I want that".
It's the same thing for Oblivion you colossal fucking moron. Do you genuinely believe this behavior just popped out of thin air without any input from a developer?
I work with skyrim in the CK heavily and know for a FACT that skyrim has 10x the amount of complex NPC interactions than oblivion, from NPCs gathering around dead dragons, to them searching dead npcs for gold. The only notable random thing oblivion NPCs performed were random conversations, which hardly ever made sense anyway.
Someone post that picture of a failboat dev with their fail AI in games.
>here's the pic
Of course but that's not what is being refereed to.
If something just happened because, for example, the player entered the area - that's commonly refereed to as a triggered/scripted event.
If the NPC does something because it made it's own "decision" based on it's AI scripts, i.e based on the current situation and not just because the players presence triggered an event, then it's referred to as dynamic.
This guy gets it
The gameplay itself is superior to Skyrim and is a development on Morrowind rather than a scaling down like we saw with Skyrim.
The dungeons and side quests are great, superior to either Skyrim or Morrowind.
In shivering isles, big head has an objective where everyday for a few hours, he searches for fork items. Near where he lives is an npc who carries a fork, so its not uncommon to see him killed or chased by guards due to a failed pickpocket
>Oblivion NPCs don't exist if you aren't in their cell.
They're still simulated.
Also, that's irrelevant anyway. You could handwave anything with that reasoning.
>True dynamic AI is triggered by user input because you have to run the program
STALKER is great for this. The NPCs walk around and loot and get into firefights without the player character having to do a thing.
I loved watching a pack of bloodsuckers clear a big building, hearing the yells and gunfire. I really wish more games had "random" shit like that.
I hope we're seriously not at the point where people are nostalgic for fucking Oblivion.
Newfag, people were nostalgic for Oblivion back in 2010.
The "being upset about people being nostalgic about Oblivion" is a recent thing. You've exposed yourself as the newfag you are.
I think morrowind had the best storyline, Oblivion had the best "living world" feel, skyrim had the best/smoothest combat
Because when it does happen and you do notice it it's one of the best and most memorable parts of playing the game
Also I think more people notice these things than you may realize
Plus if the technology is 10 years old, why the hell aren't when using it now (let alone improving on it) when it's pretty objectively superior?
Ok no fuck this I'm done
Fuck you guys
>skyrim had the best/smoothest combat
Yes, we are. it's been like that for a while, in fact.
You constantly have threads popping up about what a masterpiece Oblivion was and how dumbed down and for casuals Skyrim was, made by people who never even played Morrowind let alone Daggerfall. This is the reality we live in now.
Looking past the fact that you can barely call it combat, it is not at all smooth.
Oblivion had better combat because the animations were faster and far more responsive. Skyrim has a lot of clumsy movements because it's so heavily tied to the animations.
>The dungeons and side quests are great, superior to either Skyrim or Morrowind.
Yeah, you're beyond hope if you genuinely believe that. Oblivions dungeons were all from a pre existing warehouse that were just rearranged in different ways. There was ONE level designer for oblivion, whereas there were 10x that in Skyrim. You're a fucking fool and I don't know why I even answered such an ignorant post.
Gameplay was also fucking hideous in Oblivion, what are you on? You repeatedly slammed your right trigger for melee without any feedback or delay between strikes and the animations were awful, you could say the same about Skyrim, but the nature of being a sequel means that it HAS to be improved. Also the fucking "magic" in oblivion were just recolored off 3 base spells.
WRONG, on all accounts. You are completely uninformed on the systems in Skyrim and I don't even know where your opinion comes from except delusional nostalgia.
Not pictured in this image are the actual scripts applied onto certain NPCs, which are near 30 in on themselves. Oblivion had a 10th of the NPC interactions that Skyrim has, it's indisputable and if you can offer evidence to the contrary, then you're dismissed.
>See group of Stalkers get attacked by dogs
>A few of them are heavily wounded, I save them by giving them medkits
>Travel with them to an anomoly with a few artifacts, take one and leave the rest to them
>Keep hanging around, they go to a camp and play guitar and shit
>After a few minutes of comfy, warning goes off for an emission and every runs to the nearest cover
Why have no other games used a system this good
Oblivion combat made fucking shitty indie games look good, melee players were just flailing their weapons around randomly without a care in the world and it also lacked options like dual wielding and bashing with sword/shield. It was fucking terrible.
>muh I've fiddled with the construction set, I'm a pro modder with an important opinion
Fuck off, retard.
Call me back when Skyrim jarls start travelling between cities surrounded by guards.
>melee players were just flailing their weapons around randomly without a care in the world
And this is somehow not happening in skyrim? Atleast in Oblivion you could successfully sneak in attacks after blocking and catching the next swing with your shield, because you weren't playing a drunkard that has the slowest movements possible.
>also lacked options like dual wielding and bashing with sword/shield. It was fucking terrible
Which has nothing to do with the actual combat but rather the content.
Oblivions combat was responsive whereas skyrim's is sluggish and non-rewarding.
That's a wilderness encounter, and I could very easily point you to another image to shut your retarded opinion down. In this category we have at least 20x the amount of random events than Oblivion had.
Remember, the random encounter system you see started with FALLOUT 3. Oblivion didn't have it, it only had pre determined scenes you'd see at specific points in a quest or at specific locations.
I'm not dismissing that they're both shit.
But what I'm telling you is that skyrim did not improve the combat in any way, in fact, it made it worse.
You're the one trying to sell us this idea that skyrim somehow has the best/smoothest combat out of the series, which is objectively false.
Admittedly you had to know how to play Oblivion to make it fun, but once you figure that out it's a 9/10 IMO
>play the vanilla game
>run around flailing your sword knowing that melee combat is shit, especially without mods
>do the main quest and wonder why oblivion gates aren't fun
Or you could:
>install mods to your liking
>play as a stealthy archer or some other fun build that actually tests skill somewhat
>explore the vibrant, dynamic world and do side quests
Up to you
The entire world isn't green, and you're obviously underage if you thought cyrodil was supposed to resemble rural england.
>Oblivions combat was responsive whereas skyrim's is sluggish and non-rewarding.
Just lmao, stopped reading at responsive. This is the times we live in now, like a living hell.
Why is it that everybody is so apt to believe Todd's claims that RAI was so amazing that they had to dumb it down when the guy lied about nearly everything else?
Usually his lies are based on some minuscule grain of truth. I recall a developer saying that the AI was too "smart" during development and NPCs would murder each other over brooms whenever they wanted to sweep the floor. Preventing that isn't dumbing down the AI, it is making it smarter and more realistic. But this is likely what Todd referred to when he said they had to dumb it down.
Really, I don't think the AI was anything special in Oblivion. They performed tasks and ate, and based on certain traits sometimes they would not consider who owned the food.
>like a living hell.
Stopped reading there. You're going to have to explain how skyrim's combat is actually better/more responsive than Oblivion's if you're going to act like a faggot.
>You're the one trying to sell us
Nah, it's just you who has such shit taste.
>this idea that skyrim somehow has the best/smoothest combat out of the series, which is objectively false.
Except he's right and if you had ever touched another game with first or third person melee combat in your life, you'd know how right he is.
Both games were objectively shit, but at least the combat in Skyrim resembled something you'd see in an actual, professional video game, though only in a particularly shitty turn-of-the-century one. Oblivion combat felt like it was made in a freeware gamemaker program by some 14 year old.
Yeah and if you install mods for Skyrim then it becomes even better than modded oblivion you fucking dolt. Does oblivion have mods like Frostfall or ETAC? Interesting NPCS?
No, the only notable mod it has is some shit city overhaul mod that conflicts with everything and Nehrim, a badly translated kraut mod with generic fantasy (although not too different from the bland, generic shitpile that was oblivion).
>Stopped reading at the end of the post
You sure showed him.
>The nature of being a sequel means that it HAS to be improved
that is fucking retarded m8
>This entire post
Amazing how you can spend so many words explaining the nothingness that is your argument.
Get meme'd on friend :^)
The sad reality is, 100% of the gameworld is always made for the the player to experience, so anything that happens needs to have the player as protagonist. Seems like, from the average developer's point of view, everything that happens in the game needs to be related to the player.
GTA V one of the most recent examples: YOU can stalk people, YOU can start gang shootouts, YOU can call the police on other people's crimes (people only call the cops because of you, no other NPCs doing crimes), YOU can modify vehicles, YOU can buy weapons, and a long, long etc. NPCs can't do anything but react to the player's actions and shoot whoever they are set to hate.
I personally love when NPCs interact with the world/other NPCs on their own, specially in open worlds. It doesn't only make the world feel alive, it enhances your own experience, a lot. Replayability is also benefited from NPC to NPC/world interaction.
I'm bored of being the special snowflake that can do "something" in almost every first/third person game.
If the AI in videogames was actually interesting to play along with/against, multiplayer shit wouldn't be as popular
Boo hoo, Oblivion has less mods than Skyrim (it still has a fuckton mind you).
Whether moded Skyrim is better than moded Oblivion is a matter of preference. I prefer the fantasy vibe, better side quests, and less repetition present in Oblivion.
The developers intention with a sequel is that they want to improve on the original. Doesn't mean they always get it right but MOST of the time the gameplay will be better.
You people confuse setting/story with gameplay all the time. In this regard Dark souls 2 is better than dark souls 1 if we're only looking at gameplay and player customization.
No developer has it in their mind that "We're aiming to make a worse game than the original".
You are a retard.
More scripted triggers and randomisation doesn't mean better AI. It means literally the exact opposite. You don't know a single thing about video game AI but are still mouthing off acting like a smartass.
In a good, dynamic AI system, NPCs have a set of priorities and behavioural patterns that are used to decide their actions in response to their environment. Their behaviour is emergent from the system.
In a shitty, limited AI system, every action has to be defined and scripted by the developer. They can't even be classified as game AI, just scripted events.
The difference between Oblivion and Skyrim is clear: where Oblivion gives the guards daily, monthly and yearly schedules, so that you can encounter some of them in the wilderness, either hunting deer or escorting the count to another city, Skyrim simply spawns a bunch of nameless generic guard NPCs out of thin air and deletes them once you leave the cell.
There's no argument because you didn't even put forth something to argue with, you just told everyone you like eating shit, then pretended to speak for some silent majority and I simply corrected you.
>I prefer the fantasy vibe,
You prefer generic Tolkien shit, because you are a pleb.
>better side quests
Literally 2 side quests were notable, which were all stuffed into the DB. Again as you said, matter of preference.
>less repetition present in Oblivion.
Sure love them oblivion gates and fort dungeons breh.
People defending Oblivion's combat are fucking delusional. Literally all you did was mash the attack button, and every enemy was a massive damage sponge. Don't you remember those two guards near Bruma who were always shooting each other in the dicks? They always had 500 arrows in the crotch before one finally died. Skyrim's combat may have been awful, but few enemies were sponges and none of them to the extent that Oblivion's enemies were.
Question, how do you think the systems in Oblivion were developed in regards to AI? Do you think Todd just went near a PC and said "Hey AI, be smart!" without no developer input or scripting on their behalf?
Because the way it's worked in Skyrim is exactly how it worked in Oblivion. You would know this of course if you had ANY experience with their respective editors. But you don't and you're talking shit. The loudest people are those with the least experience regarding their topic of debate.
Refer to pic related to understand why you're failing at convincing me of anything.
The whole argument has its basis in the comparison between skyrim's combat and Oblivion's combat, in where anyone can see that Oblivion's combat was far more responsive than skyrim's.
It is not a plus to make the combat slow and tedious, which skyrim successfully does.
>Skyrim's combat was better than oblivion's
Wait, is this an opinion that people actually hold?
When I first made a melee character in Skyrim, I was appalled to find out that every time you perform an attack, the game takes away your control and locks the camera and movement to the animation. I thought it was a bug or something. Literally every single time you do an attack, you can't move the camera anymore and have to watch the animation.
It's funny how retarded you are and keep using the word scripted incorrectly. Every single modern AI in existence utilizes a state machine as a way of creating functional AI due to the sheer amount of differing game states and responses they have to have. For example, FEAR. At the base level all AI have pre-defined scripted behaviors, they just cobble actions together from these scripts and run them.
Oblivion also does the same thing as Skyrim because it's a cost-saving measure; you're not going to have all the guards in the world still existing as game objects because that's going to siphon up memory like nothing else. They're going to mildly simulate their schedules and then just spawn them if you go in an area they might be in.
Honestly you must be autistic or something since you seem to claim you know a lot about AI despite clearly not being a developer or programmer.
None of this behavior is particularly dynamic or all that different from the AI behavior in Skyrim. The difference is that Skyrim's scripting was much cleaner and refined so that the unnecessary fluff was removed - they serve no purpose in the gameplay except to potentially break other scripts.
Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
You can call Oblivion Tolkien shit, I can call Skyrim a grey mess that's uninteresting to look at, uses a lot of the same assets, and tries too hard to achieve realism.
Even if only two side quests are memorable (I don't believe that's the case), that's two more than Skyrim. And on average the quests are simply better and more unique (instead of go to cave X, kill draugr, and get Y).
And as I said in my post one of the keys to enjoying Oblivion is recognizing that oblivion gates are shit. Just like how most of the dungeons in Skyrim are shit.
>every single time you do an attack, you can't move the camera anymore and have to watch the animation.
But you can, why are you lying? What's the point?
No, only oblivious fools will think that the amateur hackjob that was oblivions real time attempt at combat was anywhere near passable. They tried to make an action RPG from the stat based one of Morrowind and failed with a weightless piece of shit system that offered literally no feedback. I don't even recall a stagger system being present in oblivion. You just whacked your Styrofoam bats at each other till the other fell over.
>I prefer the fantasy vibe.
> To the Colovians, the ancestor worship and esoteric customs of the East can often be bizarre. Akaviri dragon-motifs are found in all quarters, from the high minaret bridges of the Imperial City to the paper hako skiffs that villagers use to wing their dead down the rivers. Thousands of workers ply the rice fields after the floodings, or clear the foliage of the surrounding jungle in the alternate seasons. Above them are the merchant-nobility, the temple priests and cult leaders, and the age-old aristocracy of the battlemages. The Emperor watches over them all from the towers of the Imperial City, as dragons circle overhead.
Reminds you of something? well not fucking Oblivion, that's for sure. Except that this is how Cyrodil was supposed to look like.
AAA devs are all about maximising profit, not making a better game than the last one. To sell games they've just got to make them look good, so all of the dev time and budget goes into showy features that are instantly noticeable (e.g. graphics) rather than subtle stuff you won't notice until you play for a while (a.i.)
Aint that some shit.
What's your point? TES canon consistency and validity has been torn apart anyway, and I enjoyed the world that they ultimately created in Oblivion, so why should I give a shit about what it "should" have been.
Not an exaggeration but ONE dungeon in skyrim has more detail and care put into it than 10 dungeons in oblivion. Please revisit oblivion, especially the caves, and see how remarkably empty they are. The only fucking detail would be a couple of crates.
Oblivion also had far more reused assets than skyrim, most of the cities in Oblvion looked exactly the same, being generic Medieval castles with high walls. At least the cities in skyrim (Read; cities, not villages) were unique, from Solitude to Markarth, and Riften to Whiterun. All unique architecture.
They coded the AI in a way that would let the NPCs perform many actions with little programmer input. Which makes it a complex AI.
Skyrim's AI was dumbed down to let the programmers have more control and hand-code various behaviours.
>The loudest people are those with the least experience regarding their topic of debate.
Ironic that you're saying this, since it seems that a bit of experience with a castrated modding tool makes you an expert on game AI.
Keep arguing against points nobody made, makes you look desperate.
>Oblivion also does the same thing as Skyrim because it's a cost-saving measure; you're not going to have all the guards in the world still existing as game objects because that's going to siphon up memory like nothing else. They're going to mildly simulate their schedules and then just spawn them if you go in an area they might be in.
No, that's what Oblivion does. It simulates the actions of unique NPCs on macro levels and spawns them if you're in the same cell as them. The random encounter system from FO3 and Skyrim literally creates NPCs out of thin air just for you to kill or interact with. Those NPCs never existed in the game prior to you entering the cell and they're deleted after you leave.
Either you haven't played both games or you're dumb.
In Oblivion's example we have an AI that attempts to acquire an item using a dynamic "thought-process", if it can't acquire food, it'll attempt to steal it, resulting in its death should it fail.
Whereas it can be avoided if you present the item it wants to acquire.
That's dynamic, in skyrim, it'll happen regardless of what you do to the environment.
Rogvir will always die regardless of you killing the guards around him, because he's scripted to die there, he doesn't attempt to flee, he'll just sit in a corner calling for help until someone goes up and one-shots him.
I'm not him, but A, I've spent years modding TES, and I also work for a game studio so I have some form of a valid experience on the matter.
Yes, both games run on scripts and both have versions of the radiant AI. The point is, skyrim moved towards Radiant events, specific triggered sequences that get spawned into the world simply by the player being there.
Oblivion had things happening because of the NPCs (generally more detailed) scheduling, and because they had certain abilities that were taken out of skyrim - such as the ability to steal from other NPCs if they wanted something but didn't have it in their inventory. The driving factor for that, responsibility, was completely removed in skyrim. And when eating, instead of first checking their inventory for food like in oblivion, in skyrim an animation just gets played. This is why in oblivion there's poison apples and in skyrim you can't do things like that. It's these kind of dynamic things that this thread is about.
>You just whacked your Styrofoam bats at each other till the other fell over.
As opposed to the drunken combat that is skyrim's attempt at realism?
It's never been about arguing either of them being good, it's been about which is the most shit. And skyrim takes a significant lead in that regard.
>inb4 not it isn't
refer to >>324027659
I'm not >>324028256, but am I the only one who thought the Cyrodil jungle retcon was actually pretty based? So okay the Akaviri are Asian-inspired right? Why would the entire providence of Cyrodiil have to include their cultural hallmarks? Especially since they've been out of power for a few centuries by the first games in the Third Era?
Just because the Akaviri were fucking nips doesn't mean that the Colovians and Nibenese have to be fucking rice farmers and live in a virtual Ho-Chi-Minh trail until 400 years post Tiber Septim. The culture and look of the Imperial province fits with the way Imperial culture was portrayed in Daggerfall and and in a lot of the lore in in-game books. (Rislav the Righteous, etc.) Who cares if a "jungle" suddenly became a forest? What idea of a capital fits the Septim Empire better?
You're seriously underestimating the amount of detail that's present in Oblivion. But regardless, I'll take Oblivion over Skyrim any day because the detail that does exist is relatively unique. In Skyrim the detail that you speak of is copy and pasted elements that repeat in essentially the same order.
Your second argument is cherry picking. The cities/towns in Skyrim are hardly more unique than those in Oblivion. And everything else in Oblivion (dungeons, which were handcrafted, the countryside, ruins, houses) is far more unique and interesting.
>skyrim cities more unique than Oblivion
Bad opinion warning.
I only remember three Skyrim cities: riften, which is pathetically small for a capital, whiterun where the game's main antagonist lives and markarth, because it had an entire retarded, broken questline full of plot holes about it.
Oblivion had the imperial city, obviously, the snowy bruma, run down bravil, skingrad with the vampire count, anvil with the coast, cheydinhal with the dark brotherhood, etc.
Leyavinn was quite unmemorable, though. I only remember the colorful houses.
>They coded the AI in a way that would let the NPCs perform many actions with little programmer input. Which makes it a complex AI.
Skyrim's AI was dumbed down to let the programmers have more control and hand-code various behaviours.
How do you know this since you have NO experience with the modding tools or the development of oblivion? How do you know any of this? Hearsay? Are their voices in your head?
The scripts for certain behaviors were STILL there because things can't exist in a vacuum with development, it NEEDS the attention of a developer or else it wont exist, let alone work.
The reason skyrim went with more complex scripts instead of shallow, broken system that oblivion used is that you could get more apparent results and see the actions of NPCs.
The way oblivion handled it is that the NPCs were given scripts and then lazily chucked into the world, it wasn't complex at all, just a complete lack of care on the developers behalf where they thought "Meh, that's enough in the AI department".
I want all of you faggots praising Oblivion's radiant AI to go replay it right now without any mods.
Oblivion's AI was a joke even on release and the amount of dynamism it had was absolutely laughable, especially because there were so few objective for each character shared amount all characters.
>The whole argument has its basis [...]
> [...] Oblivion's combat was far more responsive than skyrim's.
>[...] slow and tedious, which skyrim successfully does
No, the problem is that you don't know what the words responsive and tedious means, probably due to the same mental disability that prevents you from seeing the irony of accusing me of posting my opinions as facts while you do that exact thing.
Oblivion has the most floaty combat known to man. It's the opposite of responsive, because when you press a key, there's no response beyond an animation playing that is completely unchanged regardless of if your character is floating in space or hitting a Daedra. Your character reacting instantly when you press a buttonduring an idle/cancellable frame isn't called "responsive combat", it's called "functional controls".
And I'm at the point where I think you're just baiting when you call Skyrim tedious when compared to Oblivion, the game where every trashmob scaled up to ensure that they where HP sponges at every level.
And I want you to go play skyrim without mods.
Skyrim's AI was a joke even on release and the amount of dynamism it had was absolutely laughable, especially because there were so few objective for each character shared amount all characters.
>I enjoyed the world that they ultimately created in Oblivion
I just wanted to point out why a lot of people are unhappy with Oblivion's setting.
There are hundreds of RPGs set in your average Tolkien universe, Bethesda showed that they were capable of creating such an interesting and completely alien world in Morrowind and they wasted all of their potential with Oblivion because muh Lord of the Rings.
One of the few good things in Skyrim is that when they fleshed out the lore of the Dwemer they actually managed to keep it unique.
There's no point to arguing with these retards, anon. They've clearly never actually worked with AI development, they're just spewing buzzwords randomly arranged hoping it makes sense. Kinda like Oblivion's Radiant AI in terms of how it worked.
>And everything else in Oblivion (dungeons, which were handcrafted, the countryside, ruins, houses) is far more unique and interesting.
So the dungeons in skyrim weren't handcrafted? What?
Ok, fuck this argument. You are a confirmed child.
How about you stop trying to shift the argument to Skyrim and instead talk about Oblivion?
Because Oblivion is still shit even in a void where Skyrim never came out. Now go be a good Bethesda cockgobbler and play Oblivion.
The entire civil war conflict was pulled out the ass.
The moment you get any exposition about the civil war, you immediately realize that Ulfric is the bad guy in all of this.
Unless you count the personality-less, zero presence end-game boss alduin as the main antagonist.
What a fucking bait thread. Oblivion fans everybody, full fucking retard.
>I-if he dislikes Oblivion he must be the same anon who compared Oblivion to Skyrim!
>within their scheduling
No they didn't. They had a very strict schedule and followed it no matter what unless they were in combat. There was no "dynamic ability"
It seems that everything I've said simply flew over your head.
I'll make one last point.
The difference between Oblivion and Skyrim is that Oblivion had a system where NPCs made decisions based on their schedules and "personalities". It was a dynamic system that resulted in emergent behaviour.
Skyrim had a system where NPCs didn't do much unless an action was explicitly defined by the developers. It was a system where NPCs performed actions from a pre-determined set of events as a direct reaction to player input.
My bet would be that AI is expensive, CPU wise.
If it's a feature that not enough players notice, or care about, then they likely made the decision to remove it so that they could either:
A) Use the CPU cycles for something else
B) Simply not have to worry about making it and use employee man hours to produce something else.
C) Not produce anything else, put the game out faster, and lower development costs
They were copy and pasted. You can call them handcrafted if you want but ultimately the argument I'm making is that Oblivion dungeons inspire more of a sense of exploration because they're actually unique and don't reuse the same assets and enemies over and over.
Do you seriously disagree with that? That's most people's primary complaint about Skyrim and it's evident after only a few hours of playing.
I'm familiar with Bethesda games, but I haven't played Oblivion. Should I get it? Is it actually worth playing and exploring?
>Thread is supposed to be about life-like AI in games.
>People are talking about shitty the combat in the TES games
Excellent point, I understand the disappointment from that perspective. However, if you're comparing it to Skyrim's world and art style I don't think that Oblivion is any more generic, less creative, or more of a cop-out.
Yeah, There is a lot of depth to the game.
It might be hard getting used to though due to art style looking kind of outdated and everything is glossy as fuck. But that's what mods are for.
You'll have a good time either way.
Get Oblivion XP, OOO and maybe Oblivion character overhaul version 1 (version 2 sucks).
Maybe some armor/weapon content pack that adds shit to the loot tables.
There are heavier mods, but they can be a pain in the ass to install or can break shit.
I think TES general on /vg/ has a website with mod descriptions if you're feeling brave.
You can avoid those (along with oblivion gates) and still find plenty of interesting and unique areas to explore in Oblivion.
If you avoid the draugr and dwemer dungeons in Skyrim (very repetitive, use the same assets and enemies over and over) you pretty much have nothing left.
If you've played either Morrowind, Skyrim, or both, don't bother. If you haven't, or you've got a serious itch for more of the same, but worse, consider getting it during a sale.
I think you meant Windhelm, but that's whatever.
I thought it was interesting that the game portrayed the historic cultural capital of Skyrim as pile of burning tires. Established meme-level racism (to the point where it was economically disadvantageous to the city), city walls that are literally falling apart, and burial markers for famous Nord heroes that people just pass by and NEVER mention at all. Even the fact that the Palace of Kings is a standing, surviving piece of Atmoran architecture is never mentioned in game. What the fuck?
I never gave any thought the Ulfric being the ultimate bad guy of the game, over Alduin. Interesting theory. I thought of Ulfric as a necessary evil. His rebelliion galvanized an Empire to be more pro-active in dealing with internal and external affairs with the Thalmor. His death was justified.
Are you sure you're not mixing up Oblivion and Skyrim in this argument? I really don't know if you're trolling.
I even stated above that oblivion had one level designer whereas Skyrim had 8 or more.
Ok look, go back to Oblivion and try to find a dungeon equal to Blackreach, Ustengrav or Hircines werewolf lair. Until then, I'll assume you're trolling or mentally ill.
The difference is you have no idea what you're talking about because you have no experience with the systems but I do. There is a very solid reason bethesda scrapped the system and that more people are willing to put up with skyrim longer than they did with oblivion. And that most oblivion modders transferred over to skyrim than they've ever done from morrowind to oblviion. Because oblvion was shit compared to morrowind, but Skyrim was a direct step up.
I'll give you this, Oblivion is a great entry game into open world RPGs for teenagers, that's when I liked it most, but playing it now years later and I can see all the complaints were very real.
If you're a faggot, believe this guy
If you're not play the game for yourself and make your own judgements. At worst it's slightly below Morrowind and Skyrim, at best it's slightly better than both.
Every dungeon in Oblvion was copypasted, fuck, the oblivion/ayleid dungeons look like fucking marvels compared to your average cave/fort system in Oblivion. So what are you supposed to do? Avoid every dungeon?
>The difference is you have no idea what you're talking about because you have no experience with the systems but I do
>Let me make no arguments for my case and make a point that nobody was arguing about
I'd add lore friendly version of MMM with OOO compatibility to that.
OOO + MMM (and extra NPC mods like adventures and travelers) creates so much world interaction. There's always something happening.
>If you're not play the game for yourself and make your own judgements.
Yeah, I'm sure that's why he was asking if they're worth playing, you mongoloid. Because he wanted people to tell him that he should just buy them and see for himself.
No, I'm admitting that it has some copy and pasted elements compared to Skyrim which has mostly copy and pasted elements.
If I didn't speak in generalities it would take twice as long to explain the same thing.
>Oblivion attracted more modders than morrowind could ever hope to
>That's somehow a point against Oblivion
There were a lot more mods in oblivion that changed some fundamental aspect of the game anyway. Skyrim's seem tame by comparison.
Often that's the best answer, and I still provided a judgement that he can base his decision on (at worst it's slightly worse, at best it's slightly better).
I think that's a better approach than saying "hurr durr don't even try playing this game that lots of people like just because I don't personally like it."
>actually praising Oblivion's artificial "Intelligence"
What's a good combat mod for oblivion?
I don't want ebin new animations or flashy effects, but something that balances it to be more deadly.
Sort of a "make a mistake and you're dead, land a good hit and you've won" sort of stuff.
Maybe it's because I mostly only played heavily moded Oblivion, but that wasn't my experience at all. Over half of the dungeons I entered seemed unique compared to practically none in moded Skyrim.
>Lights and effects
>ENB (MUCH better one than in oblivion)
>Wheels of lull
Every mod I listed is of a much higher quality and less bug ridden than every Oblivion mod too.
>Oblivion's AI is shit guys
>doesn't give better games as example.
Also I meant that most morrowind modders stayed with morrowind and didn't even bother to transfer over to that garbage game Oblivion. Very similar thing has happened with Skyrim and Fallout 4.
Also notice the hobo with the daedric axe at 3:00, that's Oblivion's weapon scaling for you.
And here's a bonus:
I was once leaving a dungeon in Oblivion and saw the countess of leyawin and her guard fighting two bears in the woods.
The bears killed the guard and were now killing the countess. She pulled out a dagger and started poking one of the bears to death.
She killed one, but the other one got her. But since she was essential, she only fell unconscious. But the bear was waiting on top of her.
The moment she woke up, the bear would hit her and she'd fall down again.
That went on for a while until she managed to poke the bear enough times to kill it.
I've never seen anything like that happening in skyrim, ever.
Also, I once destroyed the city of bravil by attacking a random NPC. The NPCs I had high social links with came to my defence and started attacking the guards. The whole city was involved in a huge brawl after a while, with people accidentally hitting each other and triggering combat. In the end, the guards wiped out everyone and the city was empty save for the essential characters.
>Being this retarded
It doesn't matter how Complex you think Oblivion's AI is, it still doesn't accomplish what it's supposed to do. The AI is supposed to emulate a living, breathing world but the only thing it emulates is a madhouse.
Every game that has a working AI has a better AI than Oblivion.
>NPCs actually interact with each other and do unexpected things
>NPCs stand in one corner all day and don't do shit except go to their houses at 9 PM
>The AI is supposed to emulate a living, breathing world
The only thing it's supposed to do in a video game is entertain the player.
And oblivion AI is far more entertaining than skyrim's talking statues.
>>town guards murdering civilians and then killing each other
There are people on this website, nay, on this planet, who read the above sentence and think "that sounds like no fun at all, I'd hate that to happen in a video game".
I guess it hurts your """""""""""""""immersion"""""""""""""""""
Creatures AI was an emotional experience for me as a kid. It was surreal watching the entire life of one that started out as a shitbag and reformed himself into a hero against the jungle monster before taking his wife across the world then sending their only son off to the old home after she died and just waiting for death in his garden by her body. Rip in peace, Red.
I'm not even defending Skyrim kek, I love how defensive you are. I'd rather have scripted NPC's like in the Witcher 3 who take shelter when it rains and go inside when it's nighttime than some "dynamic" AI that makes NPC's look like retards.
Here's another bonus video.
No people definitely ate in Oblivion and Skyrim. They would take food from their pockets and eat it. That always bothered me though, people usually don't keep food in their pockets all day to sit at their dining table amd eat it.
Im not even the guy you were arguing with. You stated oblivions AI was shit in a thread with multiple pros and cons to the AI then couldnt name a single fucking game with a better AI system. You're a fucking idiot then after moving your goalpost and me calling you out you try to say I'm moving goalposts (because you saw somebody else do it but don't actually understand the term) when I was never involved in your stupid fucking arguement.
Who cares what it's designed for?
What matters is what it accomplishes.
You can cast "Rage" and have the whole city go into a murdering rampage.
You can steal all of the food from someone's house and put a single poisoned apple on their table.
You can make NPCs wear a hat that causes 1 fire damage every second.
It's nice when developers add hard-to-notice features, but the fact is most players won't notice them, therefore it's wasted development time.
If I were a developer, I would only want to invest time into features most players would get something out of. Games of yore used to be made for enthusiasts, but the entry level is so low now that games are developed for players that don't often complete games at all.
>No example of better AI in another game
good job proving my point
So according to yourself, you entered an argument you ostensibly didn't care about, then when your flimsy bait post was torn to shreds you decided to randomly get incredibly buttblasted.
You should consider rethinking the life choices that led you to this point, Anon.
Im not the original guy but in what fucking way does radiant AI create a believable world? Are we talking about how 6 NPCs will stand around a house hitting it with a hammer every day forever and do nothing else and the house will never change?
I know I'm late but this reminded me of something.
About a year ago I was working on a huge NWN mod. The big thing this mod brought to the table was procedurally-generated city populations, so anywhere you went in a city you'd be surrounded by completely unique NPCs with different names, personalities and levels of violence.
The city had a base crime rate that determined the chance that a new NPC spawned would be a violent criminal. We had modifier nodes for certain neighborhoods to raise or lower the crime rate, so you're much more likely to be mugged in the ghetto than in richville. We also made the crime rate dynamic. It would increase or decrease depending on certain factors like civilians or guards getting murdered.
One time while playtesting this I sat on a bench in the town square for ten minutes just watching NPCs go about their lives. At one point a few thugs spawned and managed to murder a guard. This increased the crime rate, so more thugs spawned as more guards ran in for backup.
Gradually a full-blown riot began to unfold as an entire gang of violent thugs waged war on the guards with innocent civilians running for cover. This went on for a full 5 minutes before the guards finally pacified the situation and crime returned to normal. About 45 NPCs got killed in the riot.
The mod sadly got discontinued by the project leader, but I've always wanted to see something like that happen in AAA open-world games, where you can just sit n a bench and see chaos unfold without your involvement.
>when half the city ends up in a street fight
Wacky shit like that is why oblivion is still dear to me
Why are you so hostile? Are you defending Oblivion's weapon and armor scaling?
oh, since you are apparently brain damaged I'll write you a summary.
Some guy is defending Oblivion's AI
Me: Oblivion's ai is bad because it doesn't accomplish what it's designed for: emulaing a realistic world
You:No, that was not what Oblivion's Ai is for.
Me: Yes it is.
You: HWO CREAS ITS FUNNY THE WAY IT IS XDXDDD
I'm not talking about Oblivion's AI not being fun, I'm talking about it being a broken mess.
>people are nostalgic for Oblivion now
>and people will be nostalgic for Skyrim when the new elderscrolls comes out
kill me senpai...
We still don't have AI where I would be decked in the best armor and weapon, my companion in a hand me down but still high quality second best armor and weapon, and nearby bandits/raiders would take one loom at us and go "You know what lads? Maybe we should let this one go"
No we still have guckers in fur loin cloth and an iron knife thinking they can take on a guy in full demonic armor.
Are you new? On release everyone loved Skyrim...for that week until its flaws became apparent.Then it was relentlessly bashed and everyone who does talk about it is talking about mods.
Oblivion though? That was fucking awful from day 1, but now kids born in 2000 are trying to force it as this nostalgic masterpiece
>The AI is supposed to emulate a living, breathing world
The only thing it's supposed to do in a video game is entertain the player.
note that I wrote THE AI as in the AI i was talking about before, not any AIin general.
Here, I'll take the bait and even go one step further and provide three.
You'll notice that what the AI in these three not terribly similar games has in common is that in all of them, NPCs and enemies manage to accomplish their tasks without randomly getting themselves killed without any input from the player, by virtue of which they manage to edge out Oblivion's AI by a solid margin.
To be fair, it came out 10 years ago. Nostalgia doesn't really have a set limit either, unless your definition of nostalgia is strictly within the "nostalgia = retro games" context.
Oblivion's mods are pretty rad.
I liked that stealing thing in oblivion, but it didn't happen nearly enough. You could play through the game without even seeing it happen.
Also would be cool if they could steal from the player, which they couldn't if I remember correctly.
Oblivion's "daily life" AI failed to accomplished what it was meant do. Just because it's one of the few games that does NPC AI doesn't necessarily mean it's good, hell it gave the exact opposite of what Bethesda wanted to accomplished; Oblivion's NPC's became famous because of their stupidity, you can find countless of videos mocking them.
You're also asking me to name games that have good NPC AI, but I can't give you any, because most developers don't bother to do it. But just because bethesda bothers to do it doesn't mean it's good.
>oblivion was jated while it was out
You weren't even here 4 years ago let alone before that stop pretending like you fucking were. People loved oblivion when it came out and the shivering isles expansion made everybody shit their pants. It is the single reason Bethesda is as big in the game industry as it is. There was a phase where only console gamers spoke out on the topic and trashed oblivion for like less than a year then the mods got big and everybody loved it again till skyrim.
That's what I was saying, i just failed at quoting the guy i was replying to. My bad.
That's not what its goal was. Are you actually retarded?
Note how I never mentioned Skytim and Fo4. And no, I don't think Skyrim and Fo4's AI make their game believable.
My claim is supported by the lack of known instances of Morrowind NPCs regularly getting themselves killed due to fucked up AI interactions, whereas in Oblivion this was not only possible, but in fact had a reasonable chance of happening, as per even the OP's admission.
Stop trying to rewrite history you utter scum reddit child. I can vividly remember the mockery and derision in every single Oblivion thread. People used to post oblvion as a fucking troll, that's how bad it was.
You are literally the worst type of scum, the type that try to change details of history to fulfill your own narrative.
THE ONLY THING that was praised in oblivion was SI and Nehrim. You know I really wish we still had the archives, because I can remember my post when skyrim was released "People are going to start praising oblivion now", lo and behold, cretins like you emerge.
People were arguing that oblivion's AI was good, I said that it's not because it doesn't accomplish its goal and is overall a broken mess. also, to quote:
>The only thing it's supposed to do in a video game is entertain the player
>It accomplishes the goal of being fun to interact with.
>I'll just post some absolute bullshit I made up and hope nobody posted here before I came over from reddit in 2014!
The only things related to Oblivion that /v/ didn't hate from day one were Shivering Isles, Nehrim and waifu/nude/rape mods, and even then, the former two were mostly relegated to obscure Elder Scrolls generals.
Can we all agree Runescape has the best world and more to explore.
>Stop trying to rewrite history you utter scum reddit child. I can vividly remember the mockery and derision in every single Oblivion thread. People used to post oblvion as a fucking troll, that's how bad it was.
This is entirely true.
You're having a silly discussion you two, in that there were obviously people out there who loved Oblivion all along.
The /v/ consensus however definitely used to be "What is this LOTR ripoff, where's my jungle, what the fuck is up with these balloon heads, the game is a joke". For the longest time, really.
I even remember a time when Halo was massively hated and I find it kind of funny how I have to type "even". It was a normal, status quo opinion that Halo is a stupid console shooter and that gamepads are for cripples.
If your laptop overheated every time you tried using it but made for a great frying pan would you still think it's a good Laptop?
I can't call something that doesn't fulfill the specific purpose it was created for good.
That's my point.
Is it so wrong that I just want them to release 06' scape as single package for like £10-20 with user hosted servers and just shove like steams VAC on it or some shit, with modded servers having seperate characters to your normal one.
No it's not wrong it's just business if you can get your hand on a server file for the older version of the game and host a private server for the truly solo experience.
They'll never get involved with steam because they're so stingy with the $
>NPC "daily life" AI
Literally who gives a shit? NPCs walking around town during the day and going to sleep at night is good enough. Generic chores is just icing.
I'm not spending hours stalking NPCs to see what their daily routine is like. I'm sure that's riveting gameplay for some, but most of the population of earth does not suffer from autism.
How the fuck can you even begin to care what peasants in a video game do? If you want to passively watch a bunch of characters live out their lives go and watch a slice of life soap or anime, or better yet, read a book.
oblivion did have a lot of neat shit regarding the npcs. i remember stumbling upon a skooma smuggling operation by the orcs of cheydinhal. once a week the inkeeper would travel up in the mountains with tons of cash and go exchange with two cammona tong members for skooma that you could steal or kill. upon investigating further you notice the orcs having connections with the influential people in cheydinhal when they have that house party once every week. look around and there's skooma everywhere in the house with all these important npcs including the count there.
that was just one of many things and the best part is this wasn't even part of a quest. just random shit to make the world feel alive. i just found out by noticing the innkeeper orc of cheydinal walking down from the mountains, thinking it was weird and waiting some time to see if she did it again then it was eventually all unraveled
Gamebryo ai sounds cool in theory but it fucking sucks in practice.
When im trying to do a quest i dont want to have to track down some random npc because it felt like going for a walk around the kingdom, then when i eventually find that npc theyve been killed by a fucking goblin,or something, because that npc had no fucking business being where it was.
I prefer random scripted events like the water cooler wars in FO3 or the outdoor hangings in RDR. Just leave the npc where they are supposed to be with the only movement happening when they go to and from there house at morning and night.
Well, in Fallout 4 your companions instead of just standing around they can do their own things, like sitting down and eating something, using the workbenches, use the computers, smoke a cigar and such.
Not even him, but you don't even bother to make a counter argument so why shitpost like that?
I'm really glad they removed it. After ~40-50 hours on any particular save, the world in Oblivion felt insanely dead. It wasn't just a feeling though, it turns out that many characters will simply die when you're in the vicinity. Whether they're traveling from city to city and come across a minotaur or they decide to do some dumb shit like stealing a loaf of bread and being cut down by the city guard, a large enough portion of NPCs would be dead later into a save that I'm glad they removed it.
Wrong. If an NPC is idle and in their bedroom or whatever, you can put the apple on the table and they will pick it up and eat it eventually. It works really well if you remove all other food around them an put the apple on the table.
Its actually super overpowerred. Kill anyone in game except undead with this iirc
>For example, some NPCs with low responsibility would steal from around them or pickpocket other NPCs (often failing), if they wanted something but didn't have it in their inventory.
yeah and the end result was that you'd occasionally stumble on a scene where the entire town guard was hacking a citizen to death
>Bodies still warm... must be a killer about
Daggerfall was shit bro.
Morrowind was alright, but I think a lot of the hype for it was the nostalgia and the fact you couldn't really break a game as bad as you could Morrowind. If you'll notice half the comments about how great it was are thinly veiled "oh man I remember this one time I made a super broken potion/weapon/spell/etc" which you can still do post-Morrowind but it isn't as groundbreaking. Or they are sucking each other's dicks about the EPIC STORY, which was alright but it's hardly the sprawling masterpiece people make it out to be.
Honestly Morrowind started the retarded Kirkbride worship, it should be counted off just for that.
Oblivion came out in 2006.
It's been almost ten years.
>If no casual noticed Oblivion's AI and everyone says Skyrim's is better
It was skyrim and fallout 3 that got bethesda the casual audience. And can you even prove no one noticed when people who've played Oblivion constantly bitch about Skyrim's dumbing down of everything, AI included.
>The developers intention with a sequel is that they want to improve on the original.
You have to try harder than that. Their aim can be anything from "continue the story" to "sell more copies". FO4 and Skyrim are proof.
>only three results
just gonna mention it again