>>323928785 The Xbox didn't even sell 1/4 the amount of units the PS2 did. The Wii was a casual wagglan shitfest for grandmas and that still didn't sell as much in the long run IIRC. The PS2 introduced games to movie watching casuals, just look at Sony's first and second party games these days.
>>323929237 Dreamcast was the first console to have DLC (it was free though). You could also say Xband was the first paid online but that was a third party add-on. The Dreamcast also had SegaNet which I'm almost certain had a sub.
>>323928785 >XBOX and Wii did more to bring casuals into gaming than PS2 ever did. >Xbox and Wii >the systems that sold LESS than the PS2 You're kidding right? The PS2 was more dudebro than anything else at the time whereas the Xbox was the Dreamcast: Requiem.
The PS2 was also bought as a media machine partially because DVD players were expensive as balls at the time. So very few people bought it initially for the games as opposed to the Wii that was a dedicated gaming console. During the initial years no one bought the PS2 as a gaming console.
>>323929663 I remember that period where the Xhuge was basically Dreamcast 2. We had all these sequels to Crazy Taxi, Jet Set Radio, Panzer Dragoon, etc, plus a port of Shenmue 2 (which apparently America never got on DC? We got it in Europe but it only had Japanese voice acting, whereas the Xbox port added english voices). That Otogi game felt similar to DC era SEGA stuff too. >>323929983 I can still remember the day I found a site full of indie VMU games through the DC browser and downloaded a port of Pac-Man to it, shit was so cash.
>>323929983 >the VMU I totally forgot about that bastard. You could take it to the can with you and get items for RPGs and shit with the mini games. plus you could stick it together with a friend's VMU and trade shit. You gotta give Sega credit for being able to fucking something like this up so royally.
The CPU architectures used in the ps2 and dreamcast were so different from each other so it's difficult to compare them. The gpu on the other hand, the dreamcasts was much better than the ps2 which was/is incredibly shit. As mentioned the dc's only technical downside was disc space. It would have helped immensely with a dad drive. The rest could easily compete with the ps2.
and the dc would have been even faster had 3dfx not fucked up pretty hard
>>323927147 No, but first-party Sega games had the benefit of the devs being able to pull off nice looking tricks to get the most out of the hardware, which is why a lot of Dreamcast ports to other consoles ended up worse (Sonic Adventure, Skies of Arcadia, etc.)
>>323927147 This is literally the most cherry picked of cherry picked examples possible.
>Itagaki and his team were only given two months initially to produce the first PS2 port [of Dead or Alive 2]. At the end of this, one of his managers asked to borrow a copy to play, but instead sent in to a production factory. Itagaki was upset by not being able to finish the game on his own terms and fell into a depression during which he briefly considered quitting the industry.
The Dreamcast was a piece of shit good only for emulating CPS3 and SEGA Naomi arcade hardware, which it could barely do.
>>323935383 >>323935404 >>323935413 >tfw really liked the game >wanted to max out vincent so went to newgame+ >game suddenly becomes a cover/sniping sim and you have to know where all the enemies are before they are onscreen because you get 1-2shotted >got all the way to rosso before I got completely stuck running out of ammo when shes at half health and dont have the patience to attempt to melee her down the rest of the way The item llimit was annoying also
>>323927147 The Dreamcast was powerfull yes, but the PS2 was a bit more, and the Xbox came out on top of that generation. Dreamcast games hold up so well today because of the art directions most of them went in.
Also, it was a inovative console, modem port, vga adapter, vmu. Way ahead of its time, shame that most people waited for the PS2, that was a glorified DVD player the first years. Dreamcast deserved better, still a console i play and have fun with today.
>>323936458 They still should be but I guess devs forgot about that sort of thing. >only 2 character models on screen >relatively small stage to fight on >can go nuts with the graphical presentation since it won't tax the system
I think only the Soul Calibur team still does this but even they slacked off with 5.
"We had the content right. We had the marketing right. The product was designed right. The philosophy of networked capabilities was right. The team was right. The partners we had were right. But we didn't have the budget to be able to build the confidence of the brand in the eyes of our competitors that we were going to be around. That, to me, is the Achilles Heel of the Dreamcast. The first Xbox console was a far bigger failure than the Dreamcast. But Microsoft has much more money than Sega did. And the Xbox was an ugly motherfucker.
"At the end of the day, it was a great experience for everyone who was there, and we are all proud of our association with Dreamcast. Everybody who works there keeps a little bit of Sega inside his heart."
>>323937281 Who said that? They're right, after Sega released the Sega CD, 32X and the Saturn just a year apart from each other nobody but hardcore fans and unassuming casuals trusted them with the DC.
>>323937281 >tfw loved the Dreamcast >also loved the original Xbox >probably my 2 favorite consoles >both failed hard >also loved the PS Vita >it failed hard too The lesson is that if I *really* like anything, don't invest in it.
The DC launch was the biggest ever in the entertainment history. everyone at the time mustve thought that wouldve made up for the cd, 32x, and saturn and would rocket sega forward.
It actually is amazing how many games they put out in just the span of a year and a half. So many good experiences that lived and died on dreamcast, or got ported to other consoles, or later on got sequels in 7th gen and beyond
>>323940369 It's a promo shot, the PS2 version looked blurrier because of its native res and also didn't have that much AA, if any. The game did look great for its era and still has better facial animations than a lot of last gen games and even some current gen games, but not at that res nor with that AA.
>>323934532 Old school mirrors are a simple trick where you just copy and "mirror" the same room and characters to the other side, so it's not a shader or something. It's a neat trick but it was obviously made for games where you teleported from map to map to enter rooms and such, so it's incompatible with all the open world stuff we have today.
Anon, no. You can't place the blame on the fans for Sega completely and utterly destroying consumer trust with shit like the 32X or developer trust with shit like putting the saturn out months before any third parties were able to finish their launch titles.
like the last anon said it's an easy trick for older games with simple as shit graphics but it doesn't work for modern games without having to literally render a new scene for every reflection. also you can't do the copy the room on the other side trick when you have a free roaming game with rooms behind rooms.
>>323934167 It was ruined by it's lack of security against piracy. You could download any dreamcast game and play it off a burnt disc because it had nothing to prevent it from being read.
>>323950376>>323950741 If you were to do the mirror room trick it would use a lot of resources. Most games today have more dynamic props with various shaders and physics coding applied to them so doing it twice will make the game lag like crazy. You could do it back then because most stuff was locked in place and couldn't be interacted with. Also a lot more polygons to duplicate compared to older games.
>>323933727 DOA2 Hardcore looked like ass too. The problem wasn't a 'shitty adaption', it was the lack of content. Which is exactly why hardcore came out on both PS2 *and* dreamcast. DOA2: HC looked like ass compared to the DC version, because of the same reason the original release did - no fucking AA, which is a problem which plagues ALL ps2 games
>>323952374 It was the main character not being important at all. Probably would have done better if any other character took over Vaan's place. Heck, even his brother would have made the game great. Also, fuck Penelo's fat ass taking up two spots in the party when they could have added that one kid and someone else more central to the story.
>>323932401 Eno was a lunatic. He created bad games though. The story of how he got the uncensored version of D published is great though.
>Because the storyline and graphic FMVs were more horrifying than any video game that had yet been released, head developer Kenji Eno resorted to a trick in order to get D published. The game was originally developed with no storyline, and Eno kept the story sequences a secret even from the other members of WARP. When the game was finished, he submitted a "clean" version (i.e. without the violent and disturbing story content of the complete version) for approval. He deliberately submitted the master late, knowing that part of the penalty was that he would have to deliver it by hand to the manufacturers in the USA. While on the plane ride to the USA, he switched the phony "clean" discs with the finalized discs, thus completely bypassing all censorship.
But yes, he was so up his ass with his "I AM AN AUTEUR" shit that he forgot video games should actually be playable.
>>323948864 Blame Harada's imput, stages like that are actually infinite scrolling ala Tekken and that weird feeling you get is seeing the floor scroll in front of you while the background slightly beyond doesn't match what's going on.
>people actually think it was the ps2 that killed the dreamcast >people actually think it was marketing that killed the dreamcast >people don't know that it was piracy that killed the dreamcast Less piracy, and more of the fear of piracy. The dreamcast couldn't tell the difference between a game disc and a burned one. By the time they realized that shit they already sold a shit ton a dreamcasts for almost 2 years. It was only a matter of time before people would figure out that you didn't have to actually buy their games to play them. I read that the final generation of dreamcast had the anti piracy shit in them (not entirely sure if this was true, since all the ones I've had could read burned cds.), but by then it was too late and they figured it was better to just close shop before they started losing money.
>>323959686 It works nowadays for sure anon. That's how I can play the Capcom fighters on my DC. All you need is the right disc image and the right writer program/addons. The only differences are the occasional compressed game and crack intro.
>>323958202 that's just an arbitrary number though, seeing as we're not accustomed to working with the internals. That's just the megahertz myth in a different wrapper.
The amount of polygons you can have on screen and features supported by the video hardware would better determine who is more powerful. You need to compare the best looking Dreamcast game to the best looking PS2 game and take a note of all the tricks you're seeing. I feel like people's feelings and opinions will end up reigning champ in the end but it doesn't mean we can't try and talk about this.
Hell the PS2 is newer, but keep in mind newer isn't always better. In this case, it is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2_technical_specifications#Graphics_processing_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamcast#Technical_specifications
>>323960973 >it's still the best pick up and play console I have. It's the best pick-up-and-play console, period. Back at that time, Sega dominated all arcades. "Pick up and play" was their thing and the were damn good at it.
I played that Sonic Allstars Racing game when it came out for Steam (only a couple years ago) and they've still fucking got it. No idea why they can't seem to do a damn thing with anything they have.
>>323959368 It wasn't piracy either. CD burners were expensive as fuck and internet connections weren't so good or widespread that anybody could just pull 700mb+ downloads on a whim. Sega was dead before the Dreamcast even released, and it didn't matter how well it did, nothing could've saved them at that point. The Genesis addons, SoA being full retard about localizing Saturn games, all the dumbass corporate infighting tore Sega apart from within. Everything that came about after the Dreamcast's release was just the nail in the coffin.
>>323961306 >The PS2 was newer, but we'll never know what the DC could do at it's best. Do I know you? I've said this countless times about the 32x and the Saturn
it's an interesting way to go about things, considering SNK allowed the Neo-Geo to blossom over a period of 14 years. Imagine what some of the world's most short lived consoles could have done in that amount of time.
>>323961505 That's because the Sega All-Stars games are made by a third party. They get Sega and what made Sega great, and the amount of effort they put into their games shows that. Wouldn't be surprised if the dev team consisted of Sega fanboys. It's Sega's execs that have no clue anymore.
>>323961505 Well "they got it" it's not really accourate since all-star is made by an independent british studio that sega licensed off the characters for them to make a game. Sega hardly has any in-house teams left making anything decent. AM-2 is still fucking godlike thankfully but they're just stuck making virtua fighter forever, and the yakuza guys the same. Everything else is just average to shit.
>>323962507 I remember an article saying the NES wasn't even pushed to its limits, showing potential for even more detailed sprites, on-par with early SNES and Mega Drive games. For all we know, the Dreamcast could have perfected online play and DLC.
>>323962751 >>323962671 That, I wasn't aware of. Great game nonetheless. And yeah, AM2 always was something else. When Suzuki dies, that's the end of that wellspring.
Still they have tons of original IPs that can do more than just 'work'. They could be turned into full blown franchises. I really think I could name 20 if I wanted to. Thing is, today, they would just run them completely into the ground.
>>323962997 Holy shit that's fucking retarded. You can't just put all the NES color palete on a single sprite, that's not how it works. Jesus fucking christ these people just blabber their mouth off without knowing dick
>>323962884 >I remember an article saying the NES wasn't even pushed to its limits, showing potential for even more detailed sprites the most expensive memory mappers could take the little Ricoh CPU only so far, I'd consider the limits reached with games like Battletoads, Recca Summer Carnival '92, Kirby's Adventure, and Mr.Gimmick/Journey To Silius
>>323963374 The guy was saying "what if" though. He wasn't suggesting it was possible. Journalists have to publish, no matter what. It doesn't matter if the articles are pointless, so long as they are on-topic.
I never said it was doable, just a possibility. Look at what the SNES could pull off by 1995, and it still got support for a good three years. They always find tricks to get around the hardware, if not the developers learning the specs thoroughly. Treasure mastered the Mega Drive specs, but only put out four games on it.
>>323927775 >>323928785 >its also a piece of shit for introducing more casuals to video games with its stupid DVD player. >XBOX and Wii did more to bring casuals into gaming than PS2 ever did. The former for dudebros, the latter for non-gamers.
You're both retarded. Gaming has always been fueled by casual gamers. Without casual gamers, video games wouldn't exist.
Apparently neither of you have heard of fucking Pong, the most casual video game of all time.
>>323928240 It was pretty impressive, but don't be autistic, the xbox was better graphic wise. Normally I'd say it has shit games but looking back now it managed to pile up some pretty interesting ones.
>>323964207 How do you know it isn't possible? Look at what the Xbox was able to get graphically by its later years. Even Megaman managed to run five colors plus a transparency, and that was barely scratching the surface of all the colors to use.
>>323938252 That was not the problem at all you actual retard, the average person does not know how to pirate console games.
It failed because of a lack of support from key third party developers, damaged public perception of Sega's brand from their incredibly shitty management of their last hardware iteration and unprecedented hype for the PS2.
>>323967684 54 is a rather large number to some people, I guess. 4 is barely scratching the surface of 54.
And it's clear they were hiding the power level of the NES. Everything they had to gain came from not using any of the hidden capabilities of it. It had to pretend to be retarded in order to be good. This is some avant garde marketing right here.
>liked characters and motivations >beautiful, and interesting setting >didn't mind grinding, great monsters and once the combat system got familiar, everything made sense
>Vanilla XII's characters all felt the same. Sure I could designate one person as an archer and the other as healer, but the characters felt hollow. IZJS fixed this however. >Awful story Political drama was boring mostly because it wasn't done in an interesting matter. It felt like you breezed through set pieces only because the story had no idea what it wanted to do. >No side quests It needed something beyond hunts. Massive ass world, nothing to do it in but grind. >audio quality Compression made everyone feel like they were in a wind tunnel. >wasted potential on judges Story should have revolved more around them, but instead, they were fodder.
>>323929382 >It was literally a required console if you enjoyed vidya as a hobby.
It was a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. If you like local co-op or had younger siblings (or were a younger sibling) then the GameCube was better, but if you liked to play online or wanted something that wasn't interlaced the Xbox was better.
The PS2 was more powerful overall, as evidenced by how much better mid to late gen games looked on it, but for whatever reason (probably because it was harder to program for) DC games looked better than the first wave of PS2 games.
That said, the DC's failure had very little to do with power or games and entirely to do with the fact that going into the generation Sony was the dominant player in the console scene while Sega spent the entire mid 90s pissing away the marketshare they had by fucking it up with the 32X and Saturn. They did just about everything right with the Dreamcast, but in the end the generation wasn't theirs to win, it was Sony's to lose, and Sony won.
>>323970428 >hey did just about everything right with the Dreamcast >easiest to pirate console every released (lol no mods -- just a fucking boot disk!) >new games immediately released to the internet via usenet, IRC, etc >no possible fixes. console permanently fucked, giving developers ZERO incentive to invest in the system
good god it was so good while it lasted. but the whole fiasco is exactly why the DC got buried
>>323950741 >simply spawn a room, and when you go around to the other side, remove it. same could be done for mirror shards on the ground.
You don't understand how this works, do you? When the game loads an open world or multiple areas like say, TW3, you'd be duplicating infinitely more areas in mirrors which would kill resources. Add onto the fact that most games these days aren't like SH3 where you have physics and dynamic objects instead of pre-rendered static rooms, the issue gets worse.
>>323934167 >its the fucking consumers for being retards
The Dreamcast sold well though. Sega had to pull the plug because they dug themselves in a massive financial hole from all the stupid shit they did between the 32X and Dreamcast launch. Blowing all that money on Shenmue probably didn't help them much either.
>>323934532 Devs being stuck on the PS3 and 360 for nearly a decade stagnated everything. Just look at Dragon's Dogma, game had to not only run at a low resolution but also had shit textures, was letterboxed, and still had a hard time staying at a consistent 30FPS.
>>323964719 Collectorfag here. Both are worth getting. Buy the games that are a reasonable price and just burn the ones that aren't on a disc. Or if just want to play on the real hardware then both consoles have a device that can play games straight off an SD card.
>>323975758 If you're just gonna pirate get gdemu because you won't have to worry about the laser eventually dying but load times are also drastically lowered. But most Dreamcast games are still relatively cheap so I recommend collecting for it if you want, it's Saturn that's gonna be a black hole in your wallet if you want any of the more well known games.
>>323972221 Yeah but those people wanted to play a video game, and probably became a "gamer" (for lack of a better word). Most of the people who bought a PS2 wanted a DVD player then discovered it could also play games.
>>323976068 You can always buy a new one off ebay but who knows how long something like that will still be easily available. Though it should take a ridiculously long time before your laser dies anyway, mine hasn't yet and it's a launch model Dreamcast.
>>323927147 Ah yes, the pre 2005 era of video games. A time where a game could look and sound considerably better in one system compared to another without having the manufacturer of the weaker system put pressure on you to pursue parity, or an userbase having a meltdown online insulting you and declaring you worse than Hitler.
>>323976563 Its funny to think N64 was originally going to have near DC levels of graphical output (back when it was called the Ultra 64), but it would have cost a goddamn fortune so they scaled it way back and we're left with the blurry low res textured N64 we all know and love today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKlbx5niBu8
>>323977232 We have Epic to thank for the X360 having 256mb of ram instead of 128mb as Microsoft originally intended. They showed them of Gears of War running with the two setups and were able to convince them to go with the former.
Can you imagine how fucked the industry would have been during the better part of the last 10 years if that happened? Much worse than what we're already experiencing with the underpowered current gen.
>>323975952 I wouldn't say that's necessarily the best choice just starting off. I'd hold off on that until you're at the point where your DC has already died and now you want to get it working even without the laser.
DCs cost like 30 bucks. GDEMU alone costs as much as like 4 dreamcasts, last I checked. It's a cool device, but far from absolutely necessary
Besides, how will I know my DC is operating correctly if I don't get to hear its signature gear-grinding noises?
Final message to those who chimed in with "PS2 is technically more powerful"
It's funny to see the marketing of 15 years ago still present. PS2 pushed a lot of triangles. It was shit at a lot of other things. On the balance, the DC and PS2 were roughly equal. Raw triangle render count was the blast processing BS of the early 00s.
And if you've not played a DC connected to a good screen via VGA box (I know... it's tough...) it is so worth it.
>>323980401 >and yet they never did anything interesting with that extra horsepower. The fuck are you talking about? Games were bottlenecked by having only 256mb of ram available, and Microsoft originally intended it to be 128mb. Just try to picture the games from that generation with textures even blurrier and smaller than what they ultimately featured, even less NPCs on screen at a given time, even shittier AI, even shittier everything. It would have been a fucking disaster.
>>323962507 We don't know much about the Saturn's real limits (the Shenmue Saturn video might be a good benchmark, and is pretty as fuck, but whenever there's any sizable amount of geometry on screen, the framerate dies completely), but the 32X's are pretty cut and dry (namely because it's outright just some fast CPUs and some video ram that you overlay onto the Genesis, no hardware acceleration, it doesn't really have enough hardware to pull any kind of fancy tricks). The 32X could do anything you want, with the SH2s' clockspeed being the only concern. That Zyrinx 32X demo video was probably just on the edge of what the hardware could pull, unless some tricks to utilize more of the Genesis hardware were brought into play.
>>323959368 DC failed from the perfect storm of shit that was mostly the result of Sega's screwups. >impending PS2 launch ate at sales >Sega was bleeding money already from the disaster of the Saturn (which died from the early US launch and the wider game library on the PS1) >Sega's western handling of Saturn distribution early murdered retailer trust in them >EA didn't support Sega because of the Saturn >DC was piss easy to pirate for, you just needed discjuggler and a blank CD >Saturn got dropped early in Japan, the one region it did well, mildly denting consumer trust in Sega there
32X was a thing that hurt Sega, but the Saturn's failure was much bigger. 32X did a bit less than break even, and although it was a miserable failure, it didn't really impact the company as much as one would expect.
>>323957803 dunno what they're even doing these days with that it doesn't feel that weird in Tekken 3, but in just about all the later games, the scrolling infinite stages in Namco's fighters is weird as fuck
>>323972028 my family had a separate phone line just for internet back in '99, they'd have paid for broadband if it was available in fucking nowhere PA at the time >tfw it wasn't until 2007 that I got high speed internet
>>323982363 Blinx wasn't an experiment, it was the Xbox's attempt at having their own mascot character. After it failed, the console went full Halo and left platformers market to Nintendo and PS2.
Probably a good move in hindsight. Not too long after that GTA3 came out, shaked the industry to its core, and every developer out there started to drop "kiddy" games in favor of "mature" games while still targeting the same age group.
Games that show off the Dreamcast's power and (unfulfilled) potential:
Shenmue 2 (look at the huge leap over Shenmue 1; huge increase in texture detail especially) Le Mans 24 Hour (looks like an XBox game...beautiful) Quake 3 (60fps gorgeous textures) Skies of Arcadia (again lush textures) Outrigger Metropolis Street Racer Ikaruga Under Defeat Soul Calibur Ferari F355 Challenge
PS2 condemned gaming to a generation of muddy visuals and blurry textures after the DC had liberated us from those aesthetic nightmares.
The first port, not only was based on the PS2 version i didn't even had the PS2 lighting i not kidding it was patched later by ubisoft.
The one on steam is the definitive RE4 version, based on the GameCube version, with all the graphics effects that only the GC/Wii version had (even the 360/PS3 didn't had the reflections) and it's the only 60fps version.
AND have all the extra content from the PS2 and GC/Wii version.
You can even chose to play with a mouse without but with also have a option where you turn off any kind of compensation on the aim to simulate the Wii version bullshit with the wiimote, but even more bullshit since you will be using the kb+m precision like a PC fps.
It's freaking amazing. The definitive version that RE4 truly deserves.
The PS2 was technically more powerful in terms of hardware numbers. But it was one of the worst systems to code for. And even when a developer got absolutely everything out of the system they could, it was still limited by a complex system of multiple chips.
This is also why PS2 emulation will never be perfected. Making a PS2 emulator is literally about trying to find a software way to copy the bottleneck of the PS2 hardware.
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