Why has no one made a challenging mmorpg? I'm talking about

>>323840556
I feel like the leveling part of an MMO should be a nice walk in the park, challenging parts to it, and a fun story, but the more challenging areas should be end game.

>>323840556
because skillbased mmos are unpopular outside of korea

A lot of people are going to say it's because of casualization and shit, but that's not the reason.

It's because making a smart, challenging game with strategic content takes a lot of work.

>>323840941
You sound fat irl.

>>323840556
FFXI used to be challenging. Particularly the Chains of Promathia missions.
The game got nerfed quite a bit so its not hard anymore... but it was there.

Takes a lot of work, and most people don't want a challenge. They just want to steamroll everything.

Just look at any current MMORPG. Any hard content they do have gets nerfed, and allows anyone to win with ease just as long as you fit the gear check.

>>323841182
y-you too.
what does that have anything to do with it?

Kind of interested in this game since the decision to make it B2P and rumours they'll de-Koreanify it.

>>323840556

Because the point of an mmo is to keep a large number of subscribers. You do this by appealing to casuals who want an easy going game to serve as their backdrop for socialization, erping, and edrama.

>>323841372
Fat people are usually slow and sluggish, prefer "nice walk in the park" difficulties and avoid challenging environments.

>>323840941
A good story in an mmo is a waste, everybody just skips it. The Secret World has a great fucking story, and I really wonder how many players skipped through that.

>>323840941
That's literally every MMO though. Maybe instead of trying to be WoW killers by copying that formula, they could try something different. Whatever the fuck the appeal is in burning 50+ hours before the game actually begins, I don't see it. Cooperation and tactical gameplay should be encouraged right out the gate.

>>323841586
>A good story in an mmo is a waste, everybody just skips it.
Tell that to FFXI and FFXIV players.
There's plenty who care about the lore.

>>323840556
Because getting 20+ morons to coordinate on even a simple task is challenging enough as it is.

>>323841575

thats sort of ironic because fatties rarely go for walks. Maybe a 'segway stroll', 'car cruise', or 'electric wheelchair adventure' would be a better term.

>>323841708
I used to play ff14 and I skipped through story. You have to be a fanboy to enjoy it anyway, it's not even good, just blatant fan service.

>>323840556
>Why has no one made a challenging mmorpg?

casuals desu almost everything challenging/time consuming is being stripped from them outside of redundant shit

Even PSO2 which came from a series of games which was all about loot,trading and challenge eliminated all of that for MMO tiers collect x amount of shit to make the best weapon.


Fuck MMOs and fuck casuals.

>>323841923
You skipped through it, how can you know? :^)

>>323841304
>most people don't want a challenge. They just want to steamroll everything.
Fucking WoW got hit with this mentality hard

Hadn't played since TBC, a few months ago decided to log in and make a new tauren druid.
Literally cannot die in the starting zone, get all the transformations immediately, get a ton of gold, get skills immediately. And continues further on, don't have to talk to any players at all to do a dungeon, don't have to find the dungeons, can do the other factions' dungeons. Horseshit

Getting handed shit is so boring, I really can't believe the game became this.

>why mmo not gud???
Because ur a faget

>>323841923
ff14 has a terrible story up to 50 but the Heavensward story is actually surprisingly good.

>dat thordan fight

>mmo
>requires actual strategy, skill, quick reflexes, and has good action gameplay

Will NEVER happen.

That goes against what the industry has established as the definition of an MMO.

MASSIVELY multiplayer means, a bunch of people of all different intellects and game knowledge, having to put up with each other.

An MMO is going to fucking fail if it can only be played by some fedoracore neckbeards who have 20 hours out of the day to learn the ins and outs of shit.

It will never happen.

MMOs are made for retarded masses. They always have been and they ALWAYS will be, unless they want to become irrelevant and die out, and basically turn into a giant joke.

>>323842040
Because obviously I gave it a try at first.

>>323842268
I think you mean the MSQ is terrible up to 50.
Which is only a part of the story.

1.xx story is still canon (and very good, better than HW) and the MSQ up to 50 is a mixed bag. Some decent and some crap. The sidestories like Crystal Tower and Coil are good (and tied into the main story) and then HW story is pretty decent.

>>323842042
I hate to be a WoW apologist, I despise the game with a passion since it ruined my teenage years and left me a dried husk of a man that has no passion for anything in life and literally no skills to survive with in this shitty world, BUT do you really expect starting zones to be hard in a 10 year old game?

It's WoW, it hasn't been hard since TBC

>>323840556
>action combat
>mmo
>>>/trash/

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Remember when Wildstar tried the whole 'hardcore challenging' angle?

>>323842362
I don't get this ideology. Casualization may not have ruined MMOs, but casualization sure led it to the back of the toolshed. Ultima Online among many other early MMOs weren't "simple" then and would have just become a niche market like adventure games if it continued to evolve that way. Instead we have
infinite "x of Warcraft" derivatives.

>>323842702

Leveling was never hardcore challenging though. You could solo your way to max level easily.

I'll admit the dungeons were slightly more difficult than your average MMO thanks to actually needing some teamwork, and getting gold on the veterans were a pain, but otherwise all the other content was pretty casual.

>>323842815

Like I said, it's either easy boring shit that retards can play, or it dies out and becomes irrelevant.

Either or.

>>323842936
...and even that was too much.

The ease of access to the internet ruined any chance of an mmo ever having any challenge at all whatsoever from now on.

>>323842362
When did I say 20 hours to learn the ins and outs?
The fuck you on about

>>323842362
>They always have been
Stopped reading there.
Don't talk about something you know fuckall about.

>>323840556
That's what MMOs used to be like, anon. Then WoW, and to a lesser extent EQ just before it, came along.

>>323842702
No, I'm not talking about raids. When ever I talk about this subject people think I'm talking about end game. I'm talking about if you're level 1 and you get a quest to kill some fucking ogre or some shit, I want It to be a challenging fight. Which Wildstar never even attempted.

>>323843125

I didn't say you did.

>>323843161

Then continue playing the fedoracore neckbeard critical thinking mmos you seem to know about. Enjoy.

>>323843378
I thank god that retards have pushed the "thinking is for neckbeards" meme.
As someone majoring in Finance, it makes manipulating retards that much easier.

>>323842702
>Remember when Wildstar tried the whole 'hardcore challenging' angle?
No, I just remember wildstar beeing tortanic 2.0

>>323843465

Are you going to list the critical thinking mmos with lots of exciting action and strategy that are relevant in any way?

>>323843670
I'm not that other anon, I don't play MMOs.

>>323843081

I guess. It was the first time I ever tried some 'hardcore' content and it took about a week of trying 2-3 times every night to finally get gold on that shit. Honestly it didn't feel rewarding at all. It felt like such a chore.

Problem is the game had little to do after a month or two of playing, especially if you didn't want to bother with hardcore content. A new daily zone zone or a few new quests once in a while? You just kinda ran out of stuff to do.

For the record I appreciate them at least trying a few puzzles in their quests, despite retards in zone chat asking every 5 minutes what the answer is for gradeschool tier math questions.

>>323842702
Yes. Their definition of hardcore was "anything someone who is too shit to play farmville can't do without a minute of thinking"

>>323843727

That's what I thought.

I want to go back in time and experience 5 years of Asheron's Call again ;_;

>>323843839
I laughed.

>>323842702

Wildstar tried hardcore in the worst way possible. Rather than just make the content hard, it made you grind obscene amounts, go do some unrelated minigames and quests and kill some bosses no one gave a fuck about.

I hate shit like this in MMOs. The developers call it "MUH MECHANICS" but it's just fucking retarded. I don't want to do a fucking jumping puzzle in the middle of a boss fight. Why can't you just give the boss a good AI and make the fight challenging on it's own?

>>323843670
Eve online.
Dofus.

I would be okay with just a simple puzzle-solving battle system in an MMO to be honest.

>>323842568
In runescape you still get killed within 30 seconds of your first spawn by the desert scorpions, no warning of any manner

>>323843986

>lots of exciting action
>relevant in any way

Okay.

>>323844008
Puzzle pirate?

>>323843765

The definition of hardcore content is a bit disputed. Personally a lot of 'hardcore' stuff just sound trivially boring. Like people thinking they're hardcore because they farmed the same monsters for ~8 hours to get 1 levelup. Or they're hardcore because they did the same thing over and over again for the 1/2000 chance of an item dropping. Purely based on bullshit time investment.

>>323840556
Does FPS mmos count?

I know I play Heroes and Generals, which is pretty brutal due to how fast you die and how you need strategy on all scales of the war since you have limited lives,resources,etc making you play much differently than say battlefield 3 or whatever

then if you manage to get to the mid levels you have to manage squads of rookie players until you work your way up to high command moving around thousands of resources in a Hearts of Iron 3 type game mode

>>323843875
why is that funny?

>>323844058
>higher palyercount at peak than WoW
>only MMO beside WoW still alive
>only 2 successful MMOs beside WoW with a p2p model
>irrelevant
I lol'd out loud.

>>323844104

This. It's not hard because it took you a thousand hours to do. It's hard if only 1 in 1000 people are skilled enough to do it.

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>>323840556
not an action RPG but everquest used to be really hard for years, the higher level you were, the more xp you lost on death, a character going from 59-60 who died once basically lost an entire 8 hour grinding session, assuming constant pulls with little downtime, no time wasted LFG etc. even at level 1 you used to lose exp, and you could easily die from a single mob of equal level.

everquest nowadays is super casual, but there have been mmos that were just plain difficult in the past

>>323841812
Funny it works in squad

>>323844104
Obviously that's not hardcore, unlike grinding mobs that lose you 10% exp if you die and give you 0.1% exp if you win, which can kill you in a single hit.

>>323844262

MMOs are irrelevant.

>>323844262
>>only MMO beside WoW still alive
what

>>323844481
still more players combined than any other genre from the first title introduced in the genre to today, be it unique playercount, playercount per time unit, playercount at peak, or any other such metric. Additionally, still the highest-grossing vidya market by far.

>>323844262
>Compares it to WoW in all his arguments

Just stop

>>323844656

Okay.

>>323844660
>>Compares popularity to the most popular MMO in all his populartiy-related counterpoints

Just commit suicide.

>>323844825
Y-you too

>>323841708
Don't try and piggy back on FFXI's greatness because you play XIV. XIV's story was literally vomited up by the writers after they binge watched a bunch of terrible moe anime.

The original story in XIV was really great though. As was the story leading up to the Dalamud event.

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>playing wow with a lot of friends
>a couple of us do a small bit of pve, but mostly pvp
>friends guildmates are all complaining that pvp is too easy, should be harder
>check their rating
>0 in 2s, 0 in 3s
>confused
>call them out on it
>'arena is stupid, theres no point, hurr durr'
>realize all they do is battlegrounds and ashran
>invite them to do 3s
>they dodge everyday

yea, i guess wow is easy when you dont even participate

Secret World was actually bullshit hard before they streamlined everything to be user friendly.

>>323845067
You replied with that WoW comparison to a guy who was talking about exciting combat.

Are you lost?

the entire purpose of MMOs is to be as open to as many people as possible or else they would just be MORPGS

>>323845421

I've seen a few webms of the cutscenes in 1.0. God damn, it looked so much more lively than the shit they have now.

>>323845426
What does this have to do with anything?

>>323845638
a big thing was that the 1.0 cutscenes were mocapped

>>323845421
lel, I don't even play FFXIV. The game is awful since ARR, but that doesn't mean people don't care about the lore.

>>323845426
>0 in 2s, 0 in 3s

I got no clue what this indicates

>>323845549
Not sure if retarded or just pretending.jpg

Any MMO with a good and dynamic combat system, okay graphics, no instances and minimum monster bashing?

Will black desert be decent?

>>323845774
Black Desert

>>323845845
Nope, and it's already dead in kr.

>>323841575
Whens the last time you went outside to exercise?

>>323845673
mmos arent hard to players because they dont even try most of the content, i've always had this mentality that challenges in mmos come from being better than other players in the game rather than 'beating the game'

>>323845774
>no instances
>minimal monster bashing
Congrats, with just one of these, you disqualified 100% of all MMOs with more than 100 players at peak. At less than 100 players, there's still H&H, but it's disqualified by
>okay graphics
and
>good and dynamic combat system

If you ignore
>no instances
There's mabinogi, though.

>>323846094
And there's Eve if you also ignore
>no instances
And in both cases you'll have to choose a path that doesn't deal with NPC combat.

Do good mmos exist anymore friends

>>323846289
yes, you can always find a private server with something you like
http://www.returnofreckoning.com/index.php

>>323841016
Koreans hate challenge

>>323846289

no

korea flooded the market with trash and wow killed any remaining contenders

anything new or recently released suffers from the same issues all modern games suffer from

>>323846289
Eve, wakfu, dofus, h&h.

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>>323840556
Everquest used to be pretty hard. I really like it because when there is an actual risk. Risks make the rewards that much sweeter.

I think the only MMOs out that are challenging (or were) are full loot PVP games.

Mortal Online really has a good risk-reward. Or maybe I should say that in past tense, I'm not sure the state of the game right now. You really have to watch your back when you explore, and exploring isn't a give me. There is no in game map. There is no compass. You go into the jungle, you can get lost for hours in the dense forest with all the cliffs and what not.

Darkfall was similar, but not in regards to exploration.

There is a problem with PVP full loot games though. They are just too big of a pain sometimes. You know, I feel like the PVP is to add some sort of realism, but in real life you fuck up, you die. You don't respawn or anything. But in these games, you can just be an assholes, and what, the worst that can happen is maybe you lose some gear? Well fuck, maybe you've been playing for years and have a lot of money. Doesn't really effect you that much.

>>323846543
>koreans hate scb and sc2

>>323846626
There are several MMOs where your character can only die once, and some that have "true death" set in under specific conditions.

>>323846094
Yeah I played Mabinogi a long time ago, when there was only 2 playable characters. Game was nice but a bit repetitive, maybe it's better now.

I also tried Skyforge, which has some good ideas. But the fact that you have to play hundreds of hours to unlock playable (and interesting) classes is fucking boring.

>>323846235
Well, NPC combat is not the issue. Pointless NPC combat to get 1% xp in 10 hours is the issue. Gotta admit GW2 progression is quite nice, but the combat system sucks a bit.

>>323846614
I didn't think it was possible for a person to have such shit taste.

>>323840556
Pso2

Git gud scrub

>>323841575
>>323841836
I only play video games on electric wheelchair mode these days

>>323846807
No shit.

That isn't necessarily a good thing either.

>>323847064
>pso2
>challenging

I might haveo nly played it during the beta and 6 months after, but it was far from challenging during that time

>>323840556
Whoa what the fuck you're playing as the Dragon Crown elf

>>323846614
>good
>MMO

There can only be one.

>>323842702
It also stuck that challenge in yet another sterile, streamlined themepark.

The whole reason behind making an MMO challenging is to foster cooperation and communication, or in other words, to bolster the social aspect and make it better. When you get rid of that social aspect, all you've made is a singleplayer game with a bunch of grinding to pad it out, and in that case, I'll just go play an actual well-designed singleplayer game.

MMO's now are worthless.

>>323846701
You realize that those who play mobas and rts are different from the mmo crowd? Just look at what happened to black desert in Korea if you want proof

>this whole thread

Phantasy Star Online 2 is literally the answer you're looking for

Good faced paced action based combat. Sometimes it devolves to spam this OP skill (spooky hands era) but usually that gets nerfed and you have to think strategically about your builds and execution. Bosses will fuck you up and on ultimate and beyond even regular enemies will fuck you up too.

Why haven't you guys played PSO2 yet?

>>323847176
Ultimate mode will fuck you up. Even the most perfect of builds and equipment will still get you one or two shotted by bosses so you need to git gud at dodging them or using skills wisely.

>>323846487
this actually looks pretty good, how do you like it anon, I'm assuming you play/played

MMO's takes a fuckton of effort and people to make, therefore companies will go by the established formula and try to get a playerbase as big as possible. Making early game content actually hard will mean less people will actually be able to progress, the game will sell less, and then developers will receive less money. Noone can afford to "experiment" or try "creative things", because if it doesn't sell everyone involved is fucked.

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>>323847430
>modes
>MMO

What the fuck am I reading

Get the hell out of here

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>>323847305
Because there's no non-sucky English version, and the English fan translation is far from complete

>>323840556
Its called Wildstar and its pretty decent, likley one of the better MMO's on the market.

>>323847305
Because it hasn't been released outside of Japan.

>>323845864
Black Desert has the funnest combat I have ever played but it has the most non challenging PvE. You can attack an enemy once every 10 minutes and still kill it before it kills you.

>>323847576
YouTube it.

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>>323842702
It was just a facade and marketing technique.

>>323846626
Ultima Online was an inane game. Everything was player driven. Gank squads, counter-gank squads.

>>323847696
That's probably because you can actually dodge, unlike a lot of MMOs.

>>323847654
The English fan patch is enough to play an action based game. You don't need 100% English to play MHX do you?

>>323845845
Pros
>Good combat
>Pretty graphics
>Surprisingly well optimized

Cons
>Almost no endgame
>Absolutely no challenging PvE
>Game focuses way to much on cosmetics
>Holds your hand through the whole game
>Korean as fuck grind fest

>>323847481
It's alright, max lvl is 32 right now with 40 comming soon™ and the server is usually full during weekends.
But the RvR can be a bit bad as some players refuse to defend keeps as "it only gives your oponent more xp" and there's lots of people who logs into the other faction when the curent one is losing

>>323846289
I would say ESO is the best out there right now.

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>>323847305
>PSO2
Fuck these faggots. They lock the "unsubscribe from emails/newsletters" behind a log in. I forgot my password and recovery questions. Now im forced to put their email on a spam filter which doesnt auto-delete them

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>>323848153

>>323842568
>I hate to be a WoW apologist, I despise the game with a passion since it ruined my teenage years and left me a dried husk of a man that has no passion for anything in life and literally no skills to survive with in this shitty world, BUT do you really expect starting zones to be hard in a 10 year old game?
Pathetic. WoW did nothing to you, you were responsible for all of that. Get off your ass and go fix it.

>>323840556
Because it would bomb, you dumb shit /thread

>>323847305
PSO2 is nowhere challenging at all. It's fun, but heavily RNG reliant for gear, and is one huge dress up game in reality.

>>323848681
Good discussion

>>323848695
Not that guy, but I don't think you realize what WoW and EQ were back then. People were playing 80 hours a week on this shit and spending all friday and saturday night doing Molten core and shit

>>323849296
I'm not the anon you're replying to, but it is still his fault for ruining his life with the game. No one forced him or anyone else to play for 80 hours.
Fucking hate when people blame anything but themselves for having no self control.

>>323849651
I agree with you on that, but we do alot of stupid shit when we are teenagers

>>323847057
Found the post-wotlk wowbabby

>>323847296
>black desert
>challenging
Choose one.

>>323840556
dragons dogma online might be has anyone played it?

>>323847305
I'm sorry, i love Phantasy Star Online, but PSO2 is nothing like that.

First off no game with Iframes will ever be challenging, unless you consider pushing a button before getting hit with any attack to avoid 100% of the damage is challenging, and if pushing a button is at a certain time is challenging I'm very sorry.

Second the game is pretty much entirely gear based, and getting that gear is a huge rng fuckfest for most people aside from the 1% that get to go in and get every new drop in 5minutes for some reason. Then upgrading that gear is another layer of rng fuckfest. Then new shit comes out and you get to do it all again.

Third, PSO2 is not an MMO.

>>323851324
>and if pushing a button is at a certain time is challenging I'm very sorry.
Shit, I guess no rhythm game is ever challenging, huh?

>>323851860
Correct.

>>323851324
The I frames may sound that simple but in practice they aren't. Unless you're GU.

>>323852171
I played everything but Force and Techer and never found it hard to not get hit by pretty much everything in the game. What isn't that simple about it?

mmo players are all retarded. for every one person who wants challenging action combat, you have 10 who think challenging means you should have to grind a lot, and 100 who don't want challenge and only play the games as glorified chat rooms.

>>323840556

Because casuals is where the money is dummy

>>323854452
MMOs are, at their core, a glorified chat room. The rest of the game is there to provide context for interactions, and challenge is a good way to do that. So is making the game grindy, which is the korean's favored tactic.