So we all know Bethesda has dumbed down their games with every installment,
Who then, has stepped in to make games that are rich in content and operate like a pen and paper rpg?
Skyrim was made for filthy casuals like you. You can thank Todd by eating his shit nuggets when the next installment of TES just does away with skill levels all together and forces you to use the same sword the whole game because it's "magical" or some silly shit.
No one. The market has spoken, and it wants dumbed down press x to win shit. If you want pen and paper style games get used to shitty indies and dust off the old classics, because that genre is virtually dead in modern AAA gaming.
Just because you're a retard who can't understand how simple skills work, doesnt meant they are complex.
It means you're a fucking full blown retard.
>Use magic with the skills you picked
>Use the weapon with the skills you picked
>Use the armor with the skills you picked
Wow so hard.
there were many more options for the type of person you could be, politically in Morrowind. It's a world teeming with rivalries and alliances,with your actions having a real effect.
There were many more dialogue options in Morrowind, which were related to your stats.
The exploration was much more organic,as opposed to the randomized caves and loots of Skyrim.
In terms of general content, possible scenarios, dialogue options(with the different options having an actual effect, instead of just "nice or mean" re wordings of the same thing) the in game books, the newer Bethesda games lacking,
>they said openmw would we finished by now
>people will try to tell me it will be done this year
>for like the third year running
>Morrowind was unnecessarily complex.
>It wasn't complex
I'm not him, he's a retard with shitty opinions.
But he was right on that one, as much as I appreciate the intention they had with that system, in practice it was just flawed and a drag.
Having to keep track of every single skill increase (including the skills you shouldn't even care about) just so you don't level up suboptimally isn't good design.
>Witcher is an attempt but it emphesises combat and graphics more than anything else
>not story and dialogue
>>Who then, has stepped in to make games that are rich in content and operate like a pen and paper rpg?
you can't match pen&paper content beause it depends on how good players and dm are at making shit up, people can think up on the spot a way to face a problem the dm never though before and the dm itself can come up with if and buts for what the players want to do
for the operate part i'm glad developers stopped just automating the diceroll for the terrible dnd system (not saying it's obsolete because it would imply there was a time it was good)
playing underrail right now, its pretty fucking good, played DIV OS before that, was also a lot of fun
i think most of the people that bitch about no good RPGs these days are either casuals who cant handle bad graphics or retards who wont spend the time to look for good indies.
But yeah the days of AAA releases being complex are over, you can think a widening market for that, video games are no longer for nerds and game companies realized that casuals are both easier and more profitable to develop for because they dont care about quality or variety as much.
You set up the controls properly, right? Keeping the default Ultima Underworld-style controls is an easy way to turn yourself off from the game.
There's a lot of other things that can legitimately feel rough, but I feel like most poor first impressions are caused by the default controls.
The Attribute multiplier system was poorly thought out, but it wasn't really a major factor except in Oblivion's later levels since so many enemies had health pools that were multiplied by your level, so sub-optimal leveling could paradoxically make you weaker than you were at level one.
With Morrowind the only thing that could potentially fuck you over is having a very low Endurance, since increasing it later won't make up for all the HP you missed out on. With that one exception leveling felt pretty good overall. Min-maxing didn't count for much since you still got stronger even with the least efficient level ups, and you could level indefinitely to eventually max out your attributes at your leisure. Nobody would seriously suggest avoiding using the primary weapon of your class, because the potentially more efficient levels are never going to catch up to the massive head start and quicker advancement rate of a character that uses the skills they're good at.
>Having to keep track of every single skill increase (including the skills you shouldn't even care about)
Nah that's due to you being retarded. I only keep track of the skills I use. Why would you worry about skills you don't even use? I didn't even bother with alchemy and I powered through the game perfectly fine
>you could level indefinitely to eventually max out your attributes at your leisure
not really, you could level up until you maxed all major and minor skills and that's it
eg. a redguard with long blade as major skills would level up less times than a breton with combat skills in major
You can lower your skills through jail time or magic effects. Permanently lowered skills can be leveled up again naturally and temporarily lowered skills are candidates for training. There's no practical level cap.
If you want the best possible attribute increase per level you need to use skills governed by those attributes. For this purpose it does not matter what skills your class uses - all skills contribute to the attribute multipliers.
For this reason, the most efficient level involves tracking your skills to make sure you use the proper amount per attribute, and avoid leveling up too many skills so you don't waste their multipliers, as they will not carry over to the next level.
Again, this is just for the most efficient level possible. You can use this to be stronger at level 10 than you would be otherwise. Or you could pay it no mind, just use the skills your class and race are best suited for, and be level 20 and even stronger by the time you would have spreadsheeted your way to level 10.
when you level up you have 3 "tokens" to improve stats
stats can have a multiplier (eg. +3 for a token instead of +1) depending of which skills you trained since last level up
if you level up long blades (strenght) 10 times when you level up putting a token in strenght will raise it (times leveled / 2) so 5
howevere since if you level a skill 10 times you level up you can't have three +5s, except misc skills (that don't matter for level up) are counted for that so if you level short blades (agility, misc skill) 10 times, alchemy (int, misc skill) 10 times and long blades (strenght, major/minor skill so you level up)10 times you can get +5 str +5 agi +5int
due to this minmaxing requires you to have the lowest starting skill values as possible at the start (10 major/minor skill is a level, if you have lower starting scores you can level more times)
luck has no related skill so it's always +1 making even more levels necessary to have legit all 100s in stats
I'm not saying that Morrowind is unplayable with that system, the game isn't that hard that you'll be unable to complete it with a gimped character (except when you get to the Bloodmoon werewolves, what the fuck man).
But it's a shitty system because it's a total failure at what it tried to do, it wanted to make it so that you level up organically according to the skills you use most, and those should be the ones that are relevant to your class, so your stat increases reflect your choice in class, however, it's a failure because a warrior will end up having worse stats than a guy that has warrior skills as misc and trains them the necessary amount every level to get the +5 increase.
It's garbage, and in Oblivion it was straight up disgusting since it made the game unplayable with the level scaling.
>Morrowind feels like it doesn't take part in the same fucking galaxy as its sequels.
morrowind is literally the africa of tamriel of course it looks nothing like the rest of its world
>except when you get to the Bloodmoon werewolves
did you play it with morrowind code patch? because it makes unarmed damage scale with strenght and it's indeed bullshit for werewolves
All we can do now is wait for development tools to become so powerful and easy to use that indie games will get in the level of Morrowind while AAAs just keep getting worse and worse.
I agree with you there. The attribute multiplier system is ass-backwards and even Morrowind's very light level scaling had some unfortunate interactions with it, albeit alleviated by how incredibly strong you can become in the later levels.
I just think it's a lot better when you don't pay it any mind, as min-maxing in a game that doesn't require it is a surefire way to suck the fun out of your play. It only negatively impacts the game when you let yourself become compelled to optimize it.
I'm the kind of player who finds it really hard not to min-max and try to play every odd in my favor, so it definitely took some self control and I'd describe it as a major mechanical flaw, but ultimately learning to just ignore it made the game far more enjoyable, and leveling/customizing my characters was still a very fun process.
Just to be clear, that's only an option in the code patch, and it's one of the tweaking options rather than a bugfix one. Anybody reading this who might be considering playing the game for the first time should still never consider not using the code patch for the essential bugfixes it provides. If you want to be totally safe just enable the bug fixing options and make sure to read each option's description carefully to be sure you want it.
I've just started playing Morrowind recently (and enjoying it) and am trying to follow the conversation on the leveling system.
When I first leveled up, I saw the multipliers next to the attributes and realized that they were dictated by the skills I had leveled. I realized that, if I wanted to get a good multiplier in endurance, I would want to get a few levels in spears.
Misc skills are more useful in the sense that they need to be leveled to get attribute multipliers and I should also be careful about leveling certain skills too much because I want to "save" the multipliers they provide. Have I basically got the right idea?
i've been working so hard to create the next morrowind, there's hardly been a day that's gone by that i haven't been writing for it. it's almost playable as a tabletop game and after that comes game dev stepped into overdrive
there is nothing more i want than for rpg fans to love the gameplay and discuss the lore in as much detail as morrowind fans have
Don't min-max, it's not worth it.
Efficient leveling means that for every level up you'll have to check trainers and level up skills that you don't care about, it's just annoying.
If you still want to do it, to get a +5 stat increase you need 10 skill increases in skills that are governed by that attribute, so if you want to get two +5 increases you'll need to calculate which misc skills you need to increase on top of your major/minor ones.
Also, if you have all the skills governed by the same attribute as major/minor you'll never be able to do efficient leveling with a +5 on that stat.
Just download Galsiah's leveling mod
>I've just started playing Morrowind recently (and enjoying it) and am trying to follow the conversation on the leveling system.
don't, you'll eventually get how the system works and unconsciously start to hamper your experience for minmaxing
I'm not worried about min/maxing, I just want to have a fair understand of the game mechanics. I'm definitely not the kind of person who tries to do every little thing perfectly in my RPGs.
Pillars of Eternity
Mount and Blade
shit still exists, you just have to know where to look
Pretty much.. If you're trying to level efficiently then keep in mind which three attributes you want to level up first. Some people go for 5/5/5 for three primary attributes or 5/5/1 for two and Luck. 5/5/1 is a bit easier to deal with since you only need to focus on 20 skill ups per level, and most classes just have two main attributes they want to focus on anyway.
I strongly, strongly recommend not bothering with this. You'll get through the game just fine by playing normally. If you absolutely cannot help yourself then consider taking >>323743956 advice and using a smooth leveling mod. But if you insist on min-maxing with the vanilla leveling system then here's all the information you could possibly need:
the gist of the system is that if you raise skills tied to a certain attribute you'll get more bonus points on that attribute on level up
if you level up raising mostly axes/hammers you'll get more strenght, if you raise alchemy you'll get more int
the problem all people are arguing about is that you get better gains if you level up skills in a counter intuitive way (which doesn't matter because tes games have never been about the challenge and morrowind is the one that allows you to break the game the most)
Good to see someone repping this game. Definitely one of the unsung masterpieces of 2015.
Luck is exactly what it sounds like. It's worse than every stat at everything but has a very wide variety of effects. In terms of game mechanics, most of the time the Luck attribute applies to every calculation at 1/10th the rate of the primary attribute or skill involved in the calculation.
Basically, if you've got a specialized character who is struggling to think of a third attribute to focus on being nearly as helpful as your first two, then go ahead and take Luck since it will still make you even better at whatever you're specializing in.
The leveling system of Morrowind is pretty awful honestly but they never should have gotten rid of attributes, major/minor skills, specializations or permanent birth signs.
Turning that into Health/Magic/Stamina and a perk is a joke.
Honestly though, unless like a serious roleplay community forms, it'll just be the same as Fallout Online with a bunch Russians stacking all of the interesting gear and PK'ing.
Do you have any tips for magic based builds?
I don't want to break the game with 3X spell points or allowing magic items repair.
I don't really like rellying on my warhammer to kill things when I am supposed to kill them with MAGIC.
Reflects will fuck your weak mage ass if you use destruction.
You can summon as many creatures as spells you have (doesn't matter if they summon the same creature) and there are trainers that teach you how to summon high level daedra like Golden Saints.
>not modding the game so that you get x5 points for every attribute except luck when leveling
feels good to be able to play the character the way it was built to be played and not have to worry about autistically grinding skills or avoiding using skills just to level properly
The eastern influences are quite literally eastern - as in they're from Akavir. The Mesoamerican stuff isn't evident at all outside of the architecture of Vivec; everything else is either distinctly western or just pure fantasy. That being said, the plot and lore is really fucking Hebrew. Fundamentalist tribals look to ancient prophecies for the second coming of their Messiah figure, who they believe will cast out their Roman oppressors, restore their holy law, and root out corruption and idolatry from their religion.
Their history consists of skirmishes and wars with Babylonian look-alikes, who vehemently opposed the Dunmeri religion and literally tried to make a false god. Before that, they underwent a tremendous exodus before arriving in Morrowind.
3x is by no means game-breaking. I'd consider 2x to be the bare minimum for a class that intends to make frequent use of magic. Spells can get very expensive in Daggerfall, especially at the beginning when your magic skills are so low.
The best tip I can give is to go to the Mages Guild as soon as you can. You get access to the spell maker instantly upon membership so you can make some decent cheap spells in various schools.
When creating spells, pay attention to the ranges of values. The cost of the spell is based on the power of its effects, but the "power" is based on the average of the range and rounded down. This means that a range of 1-2 costs exactly the same as a range of 1-1, despite being 50% more effective on average. The same applies to 6-7 vs. 6-6, and other such combinations that result in a decimal average.
After level 5 or so you pretty much always want to only make spells with level-scaled parameters instead of base parameters. So for most spells the optimal range will be "1-2 + (x)-(x+1) per level" where x is the highest you can get it while still having a manageable casting cost.
He's asking about Daggerfall, which doesn't have conjuration or summoning.
>operate like a pen and paper rpg?
a bunch of indie games are trying
i like it, it makes sense instead of other games where you smack stuff with an axe till you level up then dump all your points into magic or something silly
Not nearly enough Underrail being mentioned in this thread.
It's kind of unfortunate that the game released a week before christmas with a name so close to Undertale, because more people need to play this shit.
Classic TES leveling is a cool concept, but it got fucked up by tying attribute increases to skill increases. It was the worst in Oblivion, where you would be blatantly underpowered unless you leveled up your skills in a way that maximized your attribute gains.
I don't know if tying them to attributes alone was the problem. They just fucked up with the specific method, which encouraged the opposite of role-playing by purposely making characters bad at their roles.
Personally, I'd go even further and entirely tie attribute gain to skill gain. There wouldn't even be a level up screen - your character just naturally becomes better at whatever they do, rather than suddenly gaining muscle mass by haggling really well. My favorite mods for Morrowind and Oblivion were ones that did exactly that.
Well yeah, you're right. The problem wasn't tying the two together, it was locking you out of potential attribute gains because you didn't optimally level your skills. If you just gained all of the attribute points you earned instead of being forced to pick one attribute and sacrifice points earned in the rest it would be fine.
Yep. I think a fair compromise that would still allow choosing attributes on level up would be to simply get rid of the multipliers and make them actual bonuses. "Your attributes will rise this much, and here's 3 extra points to spend as you please."
Or we can be Bethesda and just remove attributes entirely. That fixes it, too, I guess.
You know anything about the next Vampire The Masquerade game coming out? I use to like the books a lot but only played Redemption a bit. There was suppose to be an MMO so it was stuck in limbo but the IP got traded recently, a new game sounds promising.
Just couldn't get into the TV show while it was on don't know why.
Morrowind was very static, so not having to be very stringent on the multipliers can be forgiven.
Oblivion, however, had some really bad levels of scaling, which definitely demanded a level of power gaming hard, else you had a character that became useless by level 20. Didn't help taht a fight could also drag on for minutes.
At least I found SK to handle the scaling more optimally than in OB, even if the leveling system was gutted. However, if Bethesda really wanted to make the system much different, they really should have put more thought into perks to really make characters stand out from each other.
Gameplay is alright for an MMO. I like the "class" system. People generally consider PvP is the best part of the game. Story is bring as expected and side quests are even more boring than Skyrim, however full voice acting is nice.
Having sex in the missionary position for the purpose of reproduction and raising a family.
Know what would have been great? Fuzzy caterpillar mounts for the orsimer.
>Bethesda buys Arkane studios the company that made Dark Messiah.
>Skyrim has a shitty combat system instead of Dark messiahs.
My nigga, Conji's best magic
>Who then, has stepped in to make games that are rich in content and operate like a pen and paper rpg?
The game and modding community, because developers are shit.
Not really. What some random guy decides to try to do with the source code available to all of us is irrelevant to what the actual developers are doing. Sure, you can say it's misguided but it makes zero sense to say it affects your hopes for OpenMW.
I can see how some elves might be racist toward Bretons. They might see them as kind of a secret shame, half-breed mongrels that nobody wants. Of course that's not true; Bretons are awesome and will not only shrug off elven fireballs, but absorb the magicka from them to throw their own fireballs back at the elves, who will suffer greatly because of their weakness to magic.
>jumping up and down the stairs at Balmora to level acrobatics
so i always see people say morrowind has good dungeons, I'm about 30 hours in now and I'm wondering when the good dungeons start showing up? caves/egg mines are boring as fuck, dwemer ruins seemed cool because of the first dungeon but since then they have all been short and boring since then, ancestral tombs are boring too
oblivion/skyrims dungeons weren't great but so far they were better than these are
Morrowind's good dungeons are few and far between. The Daedric shrines are pretty great, but for the most part they're short and linear. The thing that makes Morrowind's dungeons stand out is the amount of hand-placed items and enemies compared to the later games. But the layouts themselves aren't quite as varied and there aren't much in the way of traps and puzzles. One thing I do very much like about them is how they feel more like real places that don't just exist to be raided by the player.
If you saw that image comparing the MW/OB/SK dungeon, know that it was cherry picked to all hell and included that first Dwemer ruin as an example of the typical Morrowind dungeon.
Daggerfall is the only TES with a decent leveling system. It simply let you role play. And you don't have to level skills that aren't even in your class.