They've completely abandoned their pen and paper origins. I'd be shocked if any writers or developers were avid tabletop RPG players specifically GMs. There is some real magic in tabletop RPGs when, no matter how simple or cliche the story is, it was made by someone who cares about you individually and wants to see you and the other people around the table have fun. The same can be said for films, cheesy movies with a plot you've seen 100 times can still end up being an amazing film that leaves you feeling the joy that the crew and actors felt while making it. Remove the soul and genuine passion of anything and pump out something for profit and all of the magic goes away.
Because OP's pic related is riddled with cutscenes, bad combat, and an uninteresting main character.
With the current trend of embracing everything foreign into replacing their own culture you think the mainstream media would have told you that this game had ass gameplay? Especially since even the president endorsed this game when mentioning Poland?
Just wait for the times to pass again. And hopefully you vote right.
>>323564204 You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about you have never played these games, Skyrim is about million times better than Daggerfall and Arena in world building, gameplay and sense of exploration. Daggerfall is literaly the same location copy pasted ten thousands of times
>>323565498 >world is not big but packed >no level scalling
This is purely subjective oppinion that this is good, packed worlds don't make for immersive worlds where there's an ecnounter on every five feet, some people preffer immersive big worlds that ressemble something realistic
>modern RPGs have completely thrown away p&p-style character building the likes of Fallout 2/Arcanum had which would significantly alter your experience feels bad man. like >>323564374 said this is because they've moved away from p&p. Witcher 3 is basically a glorified Zelda game but with Telltale dialogue decisions.
>>323564419 >>323564419 >>323564419 >>323564419 This >"B-but my taste is absolute" So why is it that youngfags don't feel this way, and only that kids that want to be special and "Think they were born in the wrong generation" think like you do. It's literally delusion.
>>323563393 people forgot 30 years of the genre maturing and use minecraft as their reference instead, making empty walking simulators like witcher or bugged collision fest like bloodborne seems "good" in comparison (which is even debatable since minecraft is deeper than both combined)
>>323563393 because they're not RPGs for example, TW3 is an open world action game (quite mediocre action game tbf) with quests and experience, but the fact it has quests and experience doesn't make it an RPG
>>323567642 no one gives a fuck about the NWN base module. Those games were primarily focused on being extremely moddable and allowing for large-scale user created content, NWN is all about the modding scene, people still make mods for it today. You'd obviously compare DAO to Baldur's Gate.
>>323563803 THIS. You know half the game before you even buy it these days. Back in the day you didnt know what you were getting into so it was all an experience, rather than saying "oh, its this part, I remember someone saying this" or "theres suppose to be a weapon here, I recall that video showing it" where before you mightve found said weapon yourself and felt stoked that you found something secret entirely on you own, these things add up to an experience of a game and knowing about them beforehand ruins it.
>>323568375 honestly, that's mostly your fault, if you didn't realize that you should only watch the debut trailer/demo and then completely ignore the rest of the showings, it's your own fault. Same goes with movie trailers, watch the teaser one, ignore the "Trailer 2" one. And for god's sakes don't watch or read reviews. They always show way too much.
>>323568818 define "tactics", do you mean "Hmm, it's a fire guy, so I should get some fire resistance". Or do you mean tactics as in having to pace your turns correctly in stuff like Jrpgs? Because most of those are just shit and spamming area spells over and over again, with a few exceptions that require you to actually think a bit.
I honestly think a "dodge mechanic" is one of the better ways to make combat interesting, and it's certainly not that big of a trend. Only dark souls and to a lesser extent The Witcher sequels has done it, and the games that this mechanics has been applied to have always been straddling in between the action and rpg genre, in a really unsatisfying way. Take elder scrolls for instance, Morrowind was stuck in a really awkward inbetween place. So in Oblivion they made it a completely action game, except they didn't add the dodge mechanic, so it's still shit. Now imagine oblivion and skyrim with a dodge mechanic and some faster attacks instead. Now it's a proper combat system. Had Morrowind doubled down on the "RPG" part in the sequel however, it would have turned out more like an MMO. Run around in the world until you find a mob, lock with him and fight it out in a completely turnbased manner.
So when you mean "tactics" I can only surmise that you mean you want more turnbased games, because optimising your fire resistance before going up against a fire guy is something you can still do in games like elder scrolls and Dark souls.
Maybe I'm speaking through nostalgia goggles but I feel like things used to focus on details, the player and his freedom to talk to/steal/interact with anything he wanted. Games don't really do that anymore, now everything focuses on GRAPHICS first, then THE STORY and your choices, even if a lot of games still can be summed up with a "ancient evil awakens/breaks out of jail" and often gameplay last. To bring up an example, Gothic allows you to drop the main quest at any time and just sit down on a bench and down a bottle of beer. Or you can run around selling off drugs to people. Or you can do all sorts of basically pointless animations that are just there to give NPCs something to do, make the world seem a little bit more alive and 'living on it's own', like lighting up candles, playing lute, smashing away at a structure with a hammer, hiding in a barrel, going to the mines and digging ore. Ironically, Skyrim still attempts to do it, but the engine(and thus, combat, and thus, almost entirety of gameplay) shits all over anything that could have accomplished. Other than that it's often about giant worlds that have not much to do except running around them, but some posts already mentioned that. TLDR: Developers don't have autistic attention to detail anymore and generate money by hyping their games to infinity instead of making sure the games are fun to play. Also I'm tired so this post may not make any sense.
>>323563393 I know where you go with it, it is nice, sly attempt... Only problem is that there is no one here who played RPGs where it was inconceivable to collect 10/10 mushrooms or kill 40/40 sparrow-dragons .
But on the second hand, if you really look at it, they(gamedevs) just changed the perspective, before they would write in questlog:collect wheels in Bortumbria, have made car seats by old wizard,kill evil dragon who guards machine,buy gas from Goblins ,bring all back and create a car , now they just write collect auto-parts to get car: 10/10.
Yet, I personally miss that I start as nobody(almost village idiot) , in some small village, do some chores at the beginning, everything is nice, you can talk to everyone, they feel like real people who belong there, they respond to you,there is shitload more text, there is actually an story behind all that and that story is actually interesting.
With all that being said, The Witcher 3 is a lot of things but it is not pick 40/40 buttons, it has an actual story, almost best living city in games in general and has relatively lively characters and not cardboard cutouts.
>>323565498 I honestly think that all Risen, Gothic,Arcania games are total shit and should be hated to hell, not because they are bad but just because they did all the mayor things so good and they ruin all that with unbelievably huge amount of small issues that totally ruin the game and Im not talking about bugs(every fucking sequel),im talking about small things that every one of us see and would fix momentarily, there is just too much of them.
I honestly have a feeling that there are some really talented people who work in Pyrana Bytes and their boss is an total retard who pourposley fucks up everything where he can
>>323574532 Clunky controls, weird angle of camera,I have to fight with "user interface" when I have to fight with monsters, not graphics but "art-style"(its not bad, its kinda off putting and ugly(im not talking about graphics, villages look comfy as fuck).
Dont get me wrong, im not saying that those games are bad, but sum of its parts is bad, it had really cool & ahead of its time settlements and human/NPC interaction but just because those parts were so good and the rest was so bad I always had a feeling that those games were made by 2 studios, one really talented and profesional and another was really on the:"Hey,mom, look at me, I have installed Unity3D on my personal computer and I'm making games."-level.
If you played those games , you had to have that same feeling, like, how come someone who is capable of doing this part so good is even able to do this part so bad. And it was always the small stuff, movement, camera, sometimes combat,sometimes system and game mechanics, but not whole, just one or two parts that would ruin whole rest of the game.
Simply the scope of things to do and customization/replayability options.
For games like Daggerfall there's a huge variety of shit you can do, and a bunch of character creation options that let you create whatever the hell you want and even really off the wall ideas. Other old CRPGs also have tons of dialogue options and other factors. Sure, they don't necessarily "change the foundation of the game completely" but omitting the option outright feels stale and one dimensional. It's especially painful because too many characters nowadays are too "defined" before the player even gets them. Take Fallout 4 for example. You have dialogue options, but it's clear where they want to steer you and what's "canon" (eg being a whiny bitch press X to SHAAAAAUN).
New RPGs can make breathtaking environments, but they're only aesthetically interesting. Their dialogue options are limited. Character creation options are usually limited, and often times poorly balanced making it feel like there's even less "choice" than before. Finally having to appeal to braindead common denominator, things that you would find in dungeons like riddles, lever puzzles, and secret passageways are either gone or simplified to such a pathetic level they might as well not have been in at all.
That said, they're still a million times better than J"RPGs"
>>323575870 >If you played those games , you had to have that same feeling I've literally never seen anyone else complain about the art style or the camera angle, so no. The controls have a learning curve, sure, but the melee combat is quite good when you know what you're doing and how to time you attacks. That's pretty much your only valid complaint and I don't see how that justifies your hyperbolic comments.
>>323574817 I would concur but even now when I really dont give a fuck anymore, I feel good when i reinstall Arcanum,Planescape, Fallout, maybe BG every couple of years. I finished Pillars of Eternity once, barely, it would be a chore for me to start over to play DLCs and I really take POE in high regard, really great Obsidian RPG with Black Isle taste all around, yet it does miss something, that x-factor. I believe that is not problem in the fact that we grew up, problem is that game devs grew up, become too cynical and they hate/or are not total fanatics in the genre. Also, almost like someone weighted every RPG ever made and made some formula/recipe that makes 100% perfect RPGs and everyone holds to that pattern like crazy.
>>323563393 They are watered down and casualized to the minimum common denominator for maximal consumption. Thus you get limited roleplaying, limited dialogue options, Maps with points of interest, arrows and markers telling you everything, Questlogs telling you what to do. Auto control over weapons like the sword. Everything is simplified.
This is over compensated by graphics and world size. Thus you get a big and pretty world but full and dull and with shit gameplay.
>>323576573 well, you cant say those games ever lift off(there was absolutely nothing that Morrowind (im not talking about their later games aka. FO3 or Skyrim or any other bullshit) hold over Gothic 2 that would prevent Pyrana Bytes to become one of the greatest devs/publishers, yet they are defunct and Bethesda is fucking EA of RPGs).
Those games were flawed in small things, yet it piled up. Sorry, but outside Germany , few people even know about Gothic. Or care.... Yet again, you just take everything full black/white, I never said that those games were bad, they were inconsistent in quality,badly.
>>323577707 Not that anon, but I'm like 5hrs into w3 and it seems often I'll go somewhere, look around, all the npc's have generic text, there's no quest markers on the map, and I instantly feel no need to explore any of the 10 houses nearby because I know they'll be locked or empty.
Obviously there IS a lot of fleshed sidequests and such, but I feel compared to older games the world feels kinda bland and not worth exploring compared to following my minimap GPS and looking at the pretty atmosphere around me, if that makes sense. It's not bad if that's what you're into but I think going open world can detract, I'd prefer it be more linear and give me more of a reason to explore the small things, rather exploring 'areas'.
>>323578195 I kind of agree.. I was never huge on constantly checking my quest log and such, but I spend most of the time walking from A-B on my autopilot horse and staring at my minimap than even looking around.
Maybe it's because you're playing shitty western games. The only good games are the ones that come from Japan.
By the way, if you read the first handful of replies to this thread, it's pretty clear that not everybody even agrees on what makes a "good" game. Complaining about "bad games" is pointless. Either a game appeals to you or it doesn't, there is no "Objectively bad" game except undertale.
I wish there was a high budget RPG that would truly allow me to actually play a role in the game instead of the forced story that every dev tries to shove into the game. There was that alternate lives mod for Skyrim which I tried out a couple of times. The game was still pretty dull and noninteractive but for a short few moments when I could actually decide what my character wants to be, where I could just take it slow and take in the nature of the character I created I felt something that I never felt with any RPG since I first started out playing videogames. It was actually cool and exiting how immersive it felt. Picking the Hunter as your origin, sitting at your campfire wrapped in pelts with a cooking pot and a tent, watching the night-sky and picking up on the sounds while trying to make out some movement in the woods that could indicate an animal. It actually felt like I was living just one of many lives I could have in this game. And then I remembered that it was just a mod and that literally only changes the first few minutes of the game until you have to get back into the regular "Skyrim by Bethesda" experience where none of your choices matter and you are the unsung hero, the chosen one, the guy who fixes every issue because he was born with the fucking savior sign on his asshole.
It's so much more exiting to achieve amazing things with a regular character who isn't gifted, who has to use his wits and play off his one strength to off-set the plethora of weaknesses he has.
>>323570704 Yeah : (( We've reached a point were instead of having 6-20 people working on a game we now have studios with 100+.
Where a small group of people could effectively communicate ideas into such a tight and perfect space we now have giant masses that vaguely mesh together, and are just giant quilts that may take up a lot of space but on the whole are ugly and disappointing.
>>323578195 This isn't a lie. There's missions where you're given options to investigate, but if you enter a certain part of the map during a mission, a cutscene will start and the quest will advance, without you knowing it'll happen or knowing you'll be locked to a quest route.
>>323578470 Same here. How to fix it: >Quest: Find triss, shes in Novigrad. >Quest log: Look around, talk to ppl. >Map: No marker. >You could also add different events that lead to her that trigger depending on who do you talk etc.
>>323578895 It depends on who you want your target audience to be? Are you making a homage to old games and want that core audience, or do you wanna go the witcher route and have a cinematic story with occasional running around between and the odd 'remember this is an rpg so get new equipment and skills', that will appeal to the masses?
Your idea would be great IF the world is well fleshed out and talking to any npc will help you navigate (even just pointing you to the inn maybe, which might point you elsewhere, but maybe a specific npc HAS seen X for example), rather than 'walk into every building and talk to every npc until a cutscene starts'. World needs to feel immersive rather than frustrating.
>>323578550 Literary just one boardgame in the entire game. The even remove poker dice to have just ONE. And it isn't that good. Even Asscreed has like 10. Why no keep both Poker dice and Gwent ? why ?
Yes, whats up with that, I played The Witcher 3 and finished it when it was 1.04 patch, now I have reinstalled the game for expansions, its 1.11, im playing Dead-march from the scratch. I have noticed that graphics and performance have been raised a little, but I also noticed that Gerald sheathes his sword in the dumbest moment possible, by himself.
It was not like that when the game was released, also, its almost like he uses just one type of swing on lite attack, that is also a new thing.
Im happy that I have tought of that and I saved all the patches, ill reinstall the game and add patch by patch to see when they decided to "fix" the combat.
With all that being said, im still an blind Witcherfag and Ill defend it to the blood, at least in AAA RPG arena(and in AAA storydriven action RPG). Age of Decadence and Underrail are now what The Witcher 1 was back then, I really wish all the best to CDPR(they have basically released The Witcher 3 for free for PC...) and I hope they just felt a little tired from Witcher universe and they need different setting to blossom again and I feel they will do it with Cyberpunk 2077(similar to Croteam, they were probably so sick from fast-paced brainless FPS so they had to make "deep" Portal copy....),I get that it could become tiresome to watch 10 years everyfucking day same fucking hero,no matter how cool the settings are-
>>323579414 Having enemies, towns and small side quests doesn't flesh out a game though. Imagine it being a quarter of the size, but all that fleshed into a smaller area, that would be so much more immersive.
>>323578895 the issue with that is that the gameplay pace doesn't allow it. Even if the game would be more centered around letting you find your own shit instead of following quest markers the game just is too "grindy". Too many questboards, too many quests, too much random fucking bullshit where character strength is directly tied to just grinding off every single fucking thing you see. I really can't remember the last time I played an RPG where I didn't constantly think about the list of quests I still had left, where I could fully immersive myself in my current mission and complete it and move on to my next adventure wherever my nose led me. I'm not sure how modern RPGs can fix it but there needs to be much less emphasis on quest categorization. Quests shouldn't just be a confined number of triggers the player has to activate, they should be open, sometimes mysterious or unclear. They should work in ways where you don't know where one quest starts and the next begins, where you can stumble from adventure to adventure without ever thinking about questlists or completionist bullshit like collectibles or unique items of which you need multiple parts. The quest's reward from a developer's perspective should be primarily the experience the player can have with it, the idea that the experience itself is a much better reward to the player than mindlessly grinding some dumb shit so they get a powerful item. If a quest isn't fun but gives you some cool shit at the end then FUCKING REMOVE IT. Replace it with something that is fun to do and put the rewards there instead. Trim down the useless fucking fetch-content and let quests be intertwined and defined in unclear ways to the player. This way the player completes quests all the time even if he doesn't know. He's always working towards some goal. He's never wasting his time. Whatever he does it could be connected to something even if he's just traveling and sightseeing.
The same thing that's wrong with gaming in general, I'd say- devs are sacks of shit who, given the choice between working their asses off to make something decent and pandering to autists and fantards , will choose the latter every time. Perfect example? Character creation screens. Think about it- how long has it been since an RPG gave you a protagonist you'd actually want to play as? Instead of handing you a sheet, a model, and a bunch of sliders and expecting you to do the devs' work for them?
>>323564374 this is the biggest problem. they keep watering down the formula instead of re-inventing it. its always some bullshit where they try to combine it with other genres, making a half-baked version of both like FPS/RPG in 3D Fallout (even though I like 3D Fallout) or Action/RPG like TW3 and they never seem to be able to actually incorporate real-time gameplay into RPGs while keeping the rpg elements in line, probably because they recognize that most of the consumer-base for games these days don't want to spend their time experimenting and learning character builds and strategies. They just want to feel a sense of progression so they can get their little extra dopamine rush while they play action games with epic set-pieces and all that shit. There are too many boxes that modrn games need to check in order to please shareholders and wow the people at the press conferences, but no game will ever mange to actually do all of those things well unless it gets 5+ years development with a competent team. Until somebody is willing to almost entirely sacrifice profit fuffilling their vision of a truly complete modern rpg, its not going to happen. Since the money makes all the decisions at most developers/publishers, and no longer the guys who truly give a fuck about games, its not wise to get your hopes up. This medium has largely gone to shit, and its not nostalgia, its a fact. Until it becomes cheap enough to make games that can be larger in scope than just indie shit with a novel gimmick, it is not happening
>>323578550 It really is not empty, it is "dark ages" setting and things are not so close to each other in real life(which they tried to mimic) as they are in Bethesda's games. Also, another thing, just because some small part of the map has its own icon, it does not grant it the moniker of "place", more of a point of interest .
>>323563393 I used to be a fan of these, I call them low budget games. Stuff like Two Worlds, Sacred 2, Risen and whatnot. Their story was usually weak but they allowed me to explore and get lost in a nice open world with a lot of freedom. The sequels dropped that in favor of trying to force you along a (weak) story, so they removed the only thing these games had going for them.
I'm by no means saying that WRPGs have to be open world, not at all, but if that was all your game had going for it and then just drop it in the sequel when people actually expect more of it, then the game will most likely be shitty.
>>323580116 yeah, that's what I've noticed. Most games don't try to create a coherent experience that is perfectly suited for the type of game it tries to be.
That's probably the reason why the "Skyrim with guns" joke for Far Cry 3 wasn't actually that much of a joke at all. Videogames nowadays have categorized and streamlined gameplay systems that are formulas that can be slapped on any setting. That's the reason why Shadow of Mordor was basically just Batman in Middle-Earth. That's why Fallout 4 was basically just Far Cry/Boardlands with even more dumbed down ME dialogue. That's probably the reason why I can't even fucking believe that 2011 was FIVE years ago. It felt like most games that came out this year could have come out in 2011 and I wouldn't even fucking notice the difference. I wouldn't have been amazed by them in 2011 let alone 2016.
>>323579414 jesus christ, and to think there are 3 more maps. It really doesnt matter how big or small they are, the fact that they made anything beside "No man's land" and Vizima,Oxenfurt is pure basedness on their part.
I know that every other dev would add couple of places, copypaste couple of villages in main map and pack Skellige as an huge 40$ DLC.
>>323568438 More like action games got infused with RPG mechanics. Don't talk as if it's the fault of action games - It's fucking RPG mechanics that have seeped into everything, casualizing everything.
>>323563803 Yep. That's pretty much what I was saying a few years ago.
It all hit me one day -- I think it what when I was playing SWTOR when it was hot -- that I don't even really play the games anymore, nobody does. I was in some group and we were all just reading guides by some person who had them on the forum with countless pages, and youtube videos on how to run it perfect.
It came to a point where even devs have admitted that they have to "fix" the game being broken by being too easy due to the popularized "cheating" in the form of youtube videos, strategy guides -- all of which is a market that is well-monetized for the advantages they give.
It was a different world in the early 2000's playing these games. Nobody was using group finders, nobody was on forums and youtubes and blog sites reading the mandatory walkthroughs.
I know the answer is "well just don't look at that stuff", but good luck selling that to the masses.
And yeah, the balance issue. Forget it. Modern online games are full of communities constantly bitching about balance, the powergamers looking for the least balanced OP shit.
TL:DR: the internet is one big cheat guide, and it's just all corrupt and fucked and done. Games will always be casual in nature and transient in popularity so long as it stays this way.
>>323568739 you have to shut yourself off from any form of videogame discussion if you don't want that to happen.
That's why being a normie is so admirable. No fucking clue what they get into when they play a videogame and they don't get burned out so quickly because it's not their every day life. Still shit taste tho.
>>323581074 >And yeah, the balance issue. Forget it. Modern online games are full of communities constantly bitching about balance, the powergamers looking for the least balanced OP shit.
I've actually seen people discuss singleplayer games in the same manner they discuss multiplayer games. Like there is some sort of fucking meta that needs to be changed and how certain equipment pieces need slight nerfs or buffs. I get it, sometimes something is so broken that it needs some changes. But what the fuck is wrong with people that they treat a singleplayer game like some goddamn e-sports.
>>323581738 Because the games are built around using a minimap. Let's compare Skyrim to Morrowind for example. Every quest in Morrowind gives you detailed information where to go. The only info Skyrim gives you is most of the time 'niggly told me to go look voor his shiggly'.
>>323582450 Nah, this point is moot, Morrowind in whole its greatness was actually really small and concise game, you were basically fucked if you strayed from the road on the one hand and on the other modern OW WRPGs are really,really huge and they usualy have no sense of why is what and where. Oh, and you had a fucking paper map of the whole island that gave the game another layer of enjoyment.
Also, I really think people had more free time back then(this has nothing to do with me being grown up, its more of a global recession thing). But I do agree that pointer that leads you to exact place where the quest/thing/enemy/settlement is, is dumb and it ruins immersion, most of people just watch that little arrow on compass and play some weird slow version of fantasy Rally, would it be so hard to just put IDK, an green arrow on map in general area where we sould go. And no map on main page of the game.
Also, to Constanza, in The Witcher 1 , minimap was the thing that fucked me up more times than I can remember, it would be easier to me if i was totally concentrated on the game, I would memorize that god damn swamp many times over if I actually watched where Geralt walks.
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