Is Tolkein literally the reason we can't have good fantasy settings in video games?
Well, Tolkien himself was very much influenced by various sources, like Norse and Irish mythology. Hell, the story of Túrin Turambar is pretty much exactly the same as the story of Kullervo from Finnish National Epic Kalevala, and while Tolkien himself dismissed the comparisons, many have argued that the One Ring for example is pretty much the same as The Ring in Wagner's Ring Cycle (although, to be fair, both are inspired by the same source material).
The problem isn't copying per se. That's how human creativity works: copying, mixing together and repurposing extant ideas. The problem is that so many people are copying JUST Tolkien rather than copying a variety of sources like he did.
This is where I feel the Japanese have the edge.
So many of their fantasy worlds feel so unique when compared to western.
Maybe it has to do with Tolkein influence being less prominent?
>This is where I feel the Japanese have the edge.
Not really, see >>323194514
The thing with japanese fantasy worlds is that they are influenced by their own folklore, and most people in the west are not familiarized with it, so yes, it might seem original and exotic, but it's nothing new actually.
Well FFXII, which is what I posted, is basically Star Wars, but I can also see what you're saying.
It would akin to blaming CoD for no good fps games or WoW for no good mmorpgs
It's not their fault they were successful and all their competitors were lazy and copied exactly what they did
nah bro, there's just a lot of copy cats.
You can always read David Eddings; he's the go-to for comfy light-reading fantasy
>mfw I've read Redemption of Althalus 3 times now
>every time I open to a random page I'm sucked into another 40-page stint
>Song of Ice and Fire
>standard cookie cutter medieval European setting
>bunch of pointless characters that get their own chapters
>characters killed off just for shock effect
>the 3rd and 4th book
>SOLID fantasy world
The irony of it is that D&D is not inherently generic fantasy, but works as a framework for all kinds of settings.
It's the fact that people use nothing but Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
Ok and tolkiens shit world is any better?
>Generic chosen one must save the world plot
Yeah I can over simplify and sound retarded too.
Tolkien still managed to incorporate some of the greater aspects into the stories, like the Mines of Moria and how the One Ring functioned in The Hobbit.
With George its all confined to one or two POVs while the rest is just political intrigue
yeah, he couldn't write characters for shit
still, the world was pretty detailed nad had a nice vibe to it. Also, Sanderson polished that turd pretty neatly and his characterisation felt better than Jordans IMO
Not everything has to operate clockwork for the setting to be solid. If everything is explained, then there is no mystery. It'd be like bitching about why does Hindu cosmology have the universe be carried by four elephants standing on a turtle.
>TFW No good game of this universe.
>TFW No good game about Tolkien's high fantasy stuff.
I want to command giantass spiders and slay elemental gods not deal with elven filth I can't even enslave.
Diablo draws heavily from Moorcock's Law vs Chaos cosmology, hell it even has the Cosmic Balance. So it's kind of generic if you look it at it through that lens. Trag'oul is still the coolest take on the Balance though.
That's what makes a good fantasy setting good.
The world itself needs to be interesting, not the current characters. In a good fantasy world you could replace all characters by new characters and it would still be an interesting story because you just want to learn more about the world. GRRM takes this to an extreme by literally killing of his maim characters and replacing them by new ones yet the fact that people still keep being invested in the story is proof that he did a good job on world building. It would be interesting to know if GRRM is aware of that fact or if he did it the other way round and wanted to create a story where he could kill a lot of characters for shock factor and thus created an interesting world with myteries and lots of details so that people have a reason to keep reading.
Tolkien's success was basically accident. The only reason why he created the huge world of Middle Earth is because he's a language nerd and invented his own language and THEN thought of a setting where people speak it. The whole fanatasy language also adding to the depth of the world. He created the world first and then some characters because he wanted to tell a story to his children.
>Not fleshing out your own fantasy world and writing stories that take place in it
It's surprisingly fun, and it doesn't matter if you are cringy as fuck when you start out because no one else is going to be partaking of it, unless you want them to.
the point of Diablo is that humanity does have a chance, they're just so shackled by artificial and spiritual limits that they're helpless pawns. the PC in Diablo 3 is the first "proper" human being to be born in thousands of years and they effortlessly destroy all 7 Lords of Hell and one of the Archangels
>If everything is explained, then there is no mystery
Ok, but how do people survive winters that last several years worth of time with just early medieval technology? Why do they even settle in places that will be covered in meters of snow for thousands of days? If it were more of a whimsical fairy tale setting, I'd just accept it at face value, but since ol' fatso is trying to write a gritty and realistic novel, I'd expect such pressing concerns to be at least mentioned
When it did got cold and snowy, it didn't happen for six consecutive years
>inb4 "ice ages were a thing"
During the ice ages, humans weren't sedentary farmers
>There are exoplanets that have seasons that change randomly though.
Do exoplanets sustain a feudal society based on agriculture?
That's not what's being debated. I was just listing two other great fantasy worlds.
Also, asoiaf is different enough from lotr to where we can't really say it wouldn't exist without lotr.
When you say a good setting I cant help but think its more about subjective bias
A settings only job is to set the stage for what the characters are doing, but the characters cant be believable if they don't seem a natural part of their setting. So its just a matter of consistency.
SOLID like my dick when I pound ur mum LMAO
The small ice age didn't cause any massively inhabited place to be covered in snow for years
I know, but I'd expect some kind of explanation to how from the guy who said that dragons having six limbs is unrealistic
I think the problem with people influenced by Tolkien is a lot of them have only a passing familiarity with it.
They know the basic plotpoints, but don't seem to understand that the appeal of Tolkien was the worldbuilding and attention to language.
>hurr durr crops should follow seasons like on earth.
>Is Tolkein literally the reason we can't have good fantasy settings in video games?
But we have M
I'd blame Peter Jackson more than Tolkien himself. He made a good job but shit got popular and so marketeers began marketeering.
Okay take the Hobbit and LotR. Two completely different stories with two completely different sets of characters. In Hobbit's case the majority of characters are even just one dimensional tagalongs. The interesting thing here is the world. Yeah you need good characters to tell an interesting story, but you could take the world of LotR and tell a million stories with a million different characters (which is basically what modern fanatasy writers do. They take the world of LotR and just put their characters in)
>I'd blame Peter Jackson more than Tolkien himself.
Nigger what? There were fucking tons of "generic fantasy" before Peter Jackson's films. Just because you weren't born yet doesn't mean they weren't there.
No, the reason is that creating new interesting settings is a buttload of work, especially in video games.
Even more so in recent times because graffix have become ridiculously expensive.
naah, he couldn;t write womens for shit, they felt like cardboard to be frank with you
And males...well, I can give you that, although there were moments where they didn't seem consistent
Honestly, how did you last that long? I stopped watching that trash as soon as they started to cram 20 storylines in a single episode giving two minutes to each character in S3, and coincidentally every actor stopped acting
I never really made a distinction between The Hobbit and LOTRs settings, but I guess I can agree what interested me more was the adventure through the world rather than any sort of character psychology.
But at the same time, the conflicts only arised because of the characters acting believable in their setting. Trolls gonna troll, pissy Elves are gonna cockblock you, etc.
I think alotta people just copy off Tolkien because they dont have any greater vision in mind with their stories, they just want to see some adventuring, so everythign reflects that.
When you look at Middle Earth, Gene Wolfe's Urth or even Lovecraft's world, they all embodies a certain mentality, theme or philosophy that held true to the author.
Authors who dont have that will more often than not make flat settings with no mystery or spice to them.
>ruining high fantasy
D&D was the very opposite of generic, boring fantasy. You can't blame D&D for plebs only wanting to play Forgotten Realms shit.
dragon quest and jrpgs in general seem to get fantasy right
I honestly think a game based more on The Hobbit's aesthetics would be more comfy and fun than one based on LotR's.
Because The Hobbit was literally a bedtime story for Tolkien's children, it's the tale of a normal man going on a grand adventure and his reaction to all the wierd shit he sees. You can do a lot with that, while LotR is just the war to destroy evil.
>just the war to destroy evil
what about the whole Frodo's arc? A normal guy goes on a mission that heroes and wizards couldn't do. Deals with obstacles that should crush him.
Sam was the true hero that middleearth desrved
nah, not when you have people, like me, get to a point and go, "I don't care what happens to these people [anymore]"
Generic, Tolkien tropes are fine in my book, as long as you do something different with it. I have no objection to games using Elves, Dwarves, Orcs etc
I've always liked TES for being a bit different, certainly with things like the Dunmer and Redguards. It's a shame they are overshadowed by generic as fuck Imperials, Nords and Bretons.
Tolkien is literally the only guy who seems to understand his elves.
Because everyone else, even the D&D writers influenced by him, seem to misinterpret how elves were in his setting, and that they were a lot more complex than most people give them credit.
But that's not true. Even in vidya you can see god-tier worldbuilding like Morrowind, Zelda, Dark Souls, Diablo, Star wars and even some parts of Oblivion. Those are not just cheap copies. They all have their unique flavour.
Same for books if you dig enough.
LotR is European fantasy, and Caucasians and others love it dearly. If you don't like it, go enjoy something different. Just don't try to change European fantasy into something different.
desu senpai I was kinda shocked when I saw all the cool lore Zelda has.
Morrowind has tons of cool stories like Tech tall elfdorfs with Babylonian beards.
Diablo 2 has an interesting lore, especially if you
bought the game and got the guide´
and Dark Souls despite all the hate gives you all sorts of hints about all sorts of shit that happened.
>thread complaining about how most western fantasy is just copying tolkien
>your solution is to copy it harder
People like ENB give dark souls lore a shit name, but it's interesting if you don't go full fanfiction with it.
Also, anyone who thinks ES doesn't have good world building is baiting
Legend of Grimrock, Torchlight, or
Path of Exile
Although i'd say they're all pretty iffy.
Even if every fantasy world somehow managed to accurately copy Tolkien, all we'd have is every fantasy world be the same thing. Fantasy needs to branch out
All of them are, but if we get more than a few Surgebinders it will be too much. On other books there are only a few with full Investitures. Common thugs get
turned to fire, smoke or crystal where they stand.
The Renaissance needs more love, to be honest.
It's everything great about the medieval period, plus the dawn of technology and the age of sail. Set it in the fantasy Thirty Years War and bang, instant "original" fantasy.
of course, it's a figurative saying but to make the point that when people say Tolkien-like they have no idea what they're fucking talking about. Why are you are focusing on the most irrelevant and abstract part and not the actual point?
It's funny how the untold stories always seem to be more interesting than the stories we're actually told
>That's what I said, default settings
As in published settings. Which those are. You can't blame D&D for people playing so much Forgotten Realms when TSR tried so hard to make other settings as successful, and players were encouraged to create their own settings.
It seems to be you're saying that since most modern fantasy loves copying elves, dwarves, etc, that it would be better off copying Tolkien more accurately. I'm saying it would better to go in a different direction and make new things.
And you get absolutely bitchin' character designs for free.
>It's the fact that people use nothing but Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms.
I wish Greyhawk was more of a norm because at least it's typical fantasy, but with some grey nuances to it. Forgotten Realms is just plain kitchen sink where anything goes. Dragonlance is the really "green meadows, knights and dragons" cliched setting.
Warhammer Fantasy is the shit and it's such a damn shame GW decided to kill it. I wish we saw more of fantasy HRE.
it's like fucking mini ice ages holy shit how are you so dense
the actual world we live on has this to but it takes way longer
>there will never be a Dying Earth video game
Funny considering D&D shamelessly stole the entire Vancian spellcasting system from those books.
did you not enjoy a basic education or something ?
No. I said if we lived in a world where people actually copied Tolkien >like people are claiming< (hint: they aren't, at most they're copying a P&P setting that took some ideas from Tolkien and other fantasy authors of the time) it would be less generic than what we have now. Of course it wouldn't be good if that happened, it's a figure of speech illustrating that Tolkien was anything but generic and knew how to write fantasy. As in even if he were to publish his works today it would still be more original than 99% of other stories with Dwarves and Elves.
Yeah, but you need to understand historically most stuff like fantasy, science fiction and horror works were rarely published in book formats but instead contained to serialized publications and magazines. So you never really had the time to work on your setting when churning out short stories or chunks of a larger story was your meal ticket.
I really like those old novels when SF and fantasy weren't really so separated. Also, early space operas are amazingly cheesy in retrospective and yet so grandiose.
>Two thousand million or so years ago, at the time of the Coalescence, when the First and Second Galaxies were passing through each other and when myriads of planets were coming into existence where only a handful had existed before, two races of beings were already old; so old that each had behind it many millions of years of recorded history. Both were so old that each had perforce become independent of the chance formation of planets upon which to live. Each had, in its own way, gained a measure of control over its environment; the Arisians by power of mind alone, the Eddorians by employing both mind and mechanism.
>The Arisians were indigenous to this, our normal space-time continuum; they had lived in it since the unthinkably remote time of their origin; and the original Arisia was very Earth-like in mass, composition, size, atmosphere, and climate. Thus all normal space was permeated by Arisian life-spores, and thus upon all Earth-like or Tellurian planets there came into being races of creatures more or less resembling Arisians in the days of their racial youth. None except Tellurians are Homo Sapiens, of course; few can actually be placed in Genus Homo; but many millions of planets are peopled by races distantly recognizable or belonging to the great class of MAN.
You might like Gloryhammer songs. Their lyrics basically range from ridiculous fantasy stories to ridiculous fantasy stories in space
Really love the 80's space opera anime vibe they have
no, its the fickle western audience that is the problem
companies are to scared to take a chance on something people wouldn't be familiar with so they can make a profit, notice how these days everything is calling itself "x thing + game of thrones"?
protip: if your fantasy setting doesnt have elves, it's not a good setting
Tolkien is based off anglo/celtic/germanic/nordic folklore
There is nothing about tolkien that is unique besides hobbits.
>Song of Ice and Fire
"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water. When she closed her eyes at last, Dany did not know whether she would be strong enough to open them again. She dreamt of her dead brother."
"Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new tire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City."
It isn't exactly surprising, Tolkien was a philology prof at Oxford, being good with languages was literally his job, he created ME specifically to be a world to give history and context to the fictional languages he created, and went from there.
It was mainly spoken in Valinor, and a lot of place names are named in Quenya as well, other then that it would only be used in extremely formal conversations, generally everyone just spoke Sindarin. Sindarin was developed when the elves that didn't travel to Valinor, the Sindar, originally mixed their speech with Quenya after the arrival of the Noldor back in ME, so they have their similarities, but a lot of large differences as well. The thing is I guess the Noldor just found it easier to learn Sindarin than to teach all the Sindar Quenya, so everything is typically spoken in Sindarin, even in the first age. By LotR, I doubt there would even be many elves that know it at all, since most of them were either dead or travelled back to Valinor, and everyone just spoke Sindarin so I doubt many elves would have bothered to learn or teach it.
>most gameplay elements in WRPGs could work in an ancient greek, nordic or egyptian setting, devs use Tolkien/Arthurian because they are just lazy and boring