Feels bad man, literally every Rpg that is just you with no party should just be Adventure games instead, but then people get needless technical with terms ties irrelevant histories to justify the classification, irks me so much
>>323117546 >rpgs reach huge mainstream status >results in every "rpg" being a soulless open world game with shoestring RPG elements Fuckin A, it's almost abstract to think that open world games used to be a relative anomaly
>>323122824 That's why I said probably. RPGs can work in other settings but then you get on that slippery slope again where everyone ends up claiming they're an RPG. By restricting the RPG label to fantasy settings you help ensure it's used properly.
>>323120853 A game in which character skill, not player skill, is the determinant for success (eg if your character's speech skill is high enough, you can convince the bad guy to kill himself), and in which character skill is determined by stats/skill that are controlled by the player and increase throughout the course of the game based on the player's decisions, victories, etc. Eg. Fallout, Vampire: Bloodlines, Baldur's Gate
>>323121478 M8 that's bullshit. Fallout, arguably the quintessential RPG, has none of those things.
>>323125380 >M8 that's bullshit. Fallout, arguably the quintessential RPG, has none of those things.
Yeah but you still built a character, even if you didn't have set classes, you picked skills and abilities and all that. And even if there's not elves and magic, wouldn't you call an alternate-universe apocalypse a fantasy setting to some degree?
>>323120853 The strictest and most flexible form while still keeping a consistent notion of what the genre should be would focus on the most relevant part of the RPG: the Role being played.
I would say that while people consider the focus of an RPG to be games where you make a character and play as them, it's way too broad and ignores myriad elements of proper pen and paper RPGs. The best definition would be a game where the defining factor of one's ability to progress is statistical superiority of the individual character versus a particular obstacle, and said satistics need to be a variable that increases or decreases as you progress, not a static variable that only temporarily changes.
For example, a game like Fallout openly utilizes Charisma as a stat to modify dialogue options and permit you to find success thanks to your satistical advantage. There are also moments where great strength permits you to physically move obstacles elsewhere. As well as moments where intelligence will assure your success in technology or awareness of your situation. And these traits also reflect combat, where a strategic or action-based approach will HELP you win, but a greater statistical advantage can all but assure your victory, and said statistical advantage is an ever changing variable. Not a singular number that only changes when it is convenient.
>>323123507 This "theory" is so fundamentally stupid, and has been countered so many times I can only think of people still spreading it either to troll, or because they actually actively want to be wrong.
>Is Skyrim an RPG? What about Fallout 4? Are any Bethesda games RPGs? Did they stop being RPGs at some point? If so, when? >Is Mass Effect an RPG? What about Mass Effect 2? >Is Dark Souls an RPG? What about Bloodborne? >Is the Witcher 3 an RPG? What about previous games in the series? >Use your answers to define the genre of RPGs.
>>323126649 WRPG and JRPG don't literally mean the areas they were created in, there is a gameplay difference stemming from the style that is traditionally native to each region.
WRPGs are generally more focused on the world that you are put into, rather than the character. To this end, most (but not all) WRPGs give you a character that you create yourself, so you can if you so choose literally project yourself into the world and then interact with it, because at the end of the day your character doesn't matter, the characters around you and the world do.
JRPGs tend to be much more character-driven, so they don't often let you project directly onto the character, instead giving you a static appearance and making your character, and your other party members, very integral to the plot of the game. The dialogue and relationships between them are focused on much more than the overarching plot.
>>323127048 The "japaneses" is in jrpg for a reason, as is the "western" in wrpg. Those two are classifications based on land of origin. Sure it typically denotes a style but that doesn't highjack the literal meaning of the term.
>>323127048 Is a Japanese studio making it? Are they based in Japan as well? Because if it's some American company that is for whatever reason legally based in Japan, using a Japanese company to develop it, and claiming the product to be Japanese, it will be a JRPG.
>>323126223 >The best definition would be a game where the defining factor of one's ability to progress is statistical superiority of the individual character versus a particular obstacle, and said satistics need to be a variable that increases or decreases as you progress, not a static variable that only temporarily changes. I'm kinda struggling with this definition - not because I disagree, but rather because I'm not sure if I understand it.
I'm going to offer what I think is a different formulation, you'll tell me if I'm merely rephrasing what you said, or if you see any considerable difference:
RPG is a game where the major bulk of the interactions between player avatar(s) and problems-solving systems is governed by a ruleset that takes heavily into account specific characteristic of the avatar (a character, or a role), which represented as a set of statistical abstractions of the qualities of the character. Furthermore, the characteristics of the avatar are dynamic, and change over the course of the game as part of a character progression.
As a result, an RPG game is a game where the specific configuration of your character's qualities (represented as stats) is the key (or at least major) determinant of your options in the problem solving process, and where the qualities of the character progress dynamically over the course of the gameplay.
The definition obviously has a weak point in use of the nebulous terms of "major bulk" and "taking heavily into account" and "key, or at least major" factor but then again, I think some degree of leeway is in order here.
>>323127034 Do you react like this to every single case when somebody tells you just how fucking stupid you are?
>>323127143 >>Is Skyrim an RPG? What about Fallout 4? Are any Bethesda games RPGs? Did they stop being RPGs at some point? If so, when? They are all RPG's but increasingly shallow ones, slowly but systematically replacing RPG elements with sandbox and action elements. Fallout 4 in particular really stretches the idea of an RPG to the absolute limit of where it's still a relevant term to use.
>Is Mass Effect an RPG? What about Mass Effect 2? First one without a question second one is I believe a action game with some RPG elements in it.
>Is Dark Souls an RPG? What about Bloodborne? I don't know much about Bloodborne, but Dark Souls is. It's an action RPG, with the whole problemsolving system being reduced to means of winning combat, but the individual builds still heavily define your playthrough options.
>Is the Witcher 3 an RPG? What about previous games in the series? Yes, but an action RPG and a relatively shallow one. Witcher games never were very complex RPG's.
>>323127394 >JRPGs tend to be much more character-driven, so they don't often let you project directly onto the character, instead giving you a static appearance and making your character, and your other party members, very integral to the plot of the game. The dialogue and relationships between them are focused on much more than the overarching plot.
>>323128071 I agree with your definition overall. In fact that's pretty much what I was trying to get across. The elements that define your character(s) in a statistical manner are what determine your ability to proceed or your options with which to interact with the obstacles the game puts ahead of you. When your obstacles are opponents moving faster than you, it becomes a race. When your obstacles are opponents trying to shoot you, the game is now a SHMUP, a FPS, a TPS, or another game in that vein. But when the obstacle is a target that requires a certain statistical spread and application of some ability or skill that plays on or requires said statistical spread to determine success, it becomes an RPG.
"Roleplaying" is really too vague a definition and can be extrapolated far too easily to genres where it has no place being ("I CAN ROLEPLAY A DUDE IN A CAR, THEREFORE BURNOUT IS AN RPG"). But you cannot mistake a game's reliance on pure statistical growth being primarily an RPG. I'd say that the dividing line between an RPG with Action elements and an Action game with RPG elements is what metric the game rewards you with success for: Statistical manipulation or active mechanical knowhow
If the game rewards your stat spread far more readily than your ability to input commands strategically or technically, then it's an RPG with action mechanics. If the game relies primarily on your technical application of inputs and statistics are merely a tool to benefit your technical knowhow, it's an Action game with RPG mechanics.
>>323127143 >>Is Skyrim an RPG? What about Fallout 4? Are any Bethesda games RPGs? Did they stop being RPGs at some point? If so, when? I'd say Skyrim is, and so are the previous ES games, but it's more iffy with FO3, and definitely no with FO4. >>Is Mass Effect an RPG? What about Mass Effect 2? Yes both are. ME2 may have dropped a lot of RPG mechanics but it kept decision making and classes. >>Is Dark Souls an RPG? What about Bloodborne? Yes to both. >>Is the Witcher 3 an RPG? What about previous games in the series? Yes but both Deus Ex and Witcher lean more towards action games than RPGs. They have set characters for one. Frankly if they didn't offer dialogue choices I wouldn't consider themEPGs. That aside I still love them. >>Use your answers to define the genre of RPGs. RPGs must have dialogue choices and offer choices that change the outcome of the story however marginal. That for me is the essential difference between RPGs and other genres.
>>323128759 I think there's a more important distinction here. Is the roleplay mechanically reinforced? Simply put, am I actually taking on and being made to play as a character? Am I being forced to think as the character I rolled rather than the person sitting at the keyboard? Let's go with Fallout New Vegas as an example. Depending on how I build my character I am forced into certain styles of play because I'm governed by the abilities of the character. My guns skill is on 20 so I'm not going to be hitting a thing with a rifle because my character can't hit a thing. My speech, barter and science are high though, so I'm in a situation where talking, thinking and buying my way out of problems is preferable. This is because of the character. This is the role I am playing. This is also why Fallout 4 is not an RPG. Despite what choices you make in SPECIAL and perks, you solve all problems the same way, with bullets. You can always find your mark with your rifle or you nuke launcher and your choices of stat do not make a meaningful impact on how you play. I think Super Bunnyhop put it best with the description that this style of game is more about player expression than storytelling. The character serves as a proxy for you, rather than a person you take on.
>>323128759 >"Roleplaying" is really too vague a definition and can be extrapolated far too easily to genres where it has no place being That problem can be simply avoided if we consider that roleplaying is something different from playing a role. Playing a role means certain degree of identification of the player and the avatar. Roleplaying means constraining your options to those appropriate for the characteristics of the avatar.
I've always said that the idea of roleplaying is more about restriction than anything else. It really means that LIMIT your possibilities: when you roleplay as a dumb guy, you restrict yourself from acting smart. Playing a role of a dumb guy does not mean you have to act dumb: it means your avatar is dumb, and you are in control of him. Roleplaying a dumb guy means acting dumb. That is a pretty important difference between Roleplaying games and sandboxes: in a sandbox, you have access to all options the game's interaction inventory offers. In a roleplaying game, you have only access to those that are consistent with your character (and your character is, for the sake of keeping the ruleset constrained, abstracted into statistics and values).
>>323130373 The only flaw of that definition is that instead of "player skill", there should be "input control". You can make the argument that knowing builds and mechanics and being able to use the ruleset to high efficiency is a player skill so it's a questionable formulation, but then again I think that anyone actually can understand that in this context, "player skill" means to manual imput skills.
>>323117546 I read an article back in, like 2007 or something, that described why RPGs seem to be such a dying breed, and it's more relent now than ever.
Basically, it's because everything we used to characterize RPGs for (Character progression systems, numerical representations of innate traits, granular customization, even unorthodox combat systems) have all been subsumed into gaming as a whole. Tetris has level up systems now. Fucking FIFA these days has a deeper character progression system than Morrowind. And when every other game takes your best traits, you tend to look for something to differentiate yourself. Ten years ago, Xenoblade Chronicles wouldn't even have been called a JRPG, but here we are.
>>323127143 >Skyrim Yes, albeit a simplistic one. As far as actual role playing goes it's one of the most fun games for it I can think of but that's an opinion. >Fallout 4 Open world first person shooter with RPG elements. As much of an RPG as FC3 or Dishonored >Bethesda TES and Fallout series are both RPGs with the obvious exceptions. You can't really say just "Bethesda games" in general because the aforementioned stealth action game Dishonored is not and not intended to be an RPG.
>Mass Effect Yes. Detailed level system, skill gates (you have to have certain skill ranks to hack or use some objects), morality system, some player choice. It's no hallmark of the genre (though it's a good game) >ME2 Like Skyrim, barely. Most of what you could do in ME1 is still there, just reduced. >Dark Souls Action RPG and a game of a completely different style, since it is narratively linear but almost everything else is up to the player. >Bloodborne I don't see why not. >Witcher Geralt is an established character, but only really as much as Shepard or Revan. Of course it's an RPG.
>>323131126 Not really. Having RPG elements is not the same as being an RPG. Having a progression model in Tetris, unlocks in CoD, those laughable and annoying "skill" unlocks in modern day open world games does not make them RPG, and they do not endanger the existence of the RPG as a stand-alone genre.
>>323127394 >don't literally mean the area they were created in Except they do. For example, Souls is technically a JRPG and Bound By Flame is a WRPG, even though they're both of the same type of game.
What you're describing are gameplay conventions and your logic could effectively be used to classify Halo, Far Cry, and Doom as all being in different genres because of their radically different playstyles.
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