After messing around with a few roguelites which have kept me on the edge of my seat (some of which I still haven't been able to beat) I decided to give Diablo 2 a go, since I read dozens of times on this board it is the best game ever and I remembered there being a permadeath mode, which made it sound like the grandfather of modern roguelites.
I don't get it. I'm playing a palladin, on the third act and thinking of quitting. It's not challenging. It's not rewarding. You just chug potions and keep mauling without having to care much. It's just tedious. Like a korean mmo. It feels a bit like a predecessor to WoW. I had trouble with the first act boss as I completely ignored status potions up to this point, but it turns out you can just drink them before going back to the area and he's done. Same applies to act 2 but with antifreeze instead of antidote.
I understand I might be completely wrong about this. I have to, given the praise it receives. In terms of production values it's certainly better than modern roguelites, but in terms of gameplay it feels clearly inferior. So could anyone please explain to me what exactly is good about this game? Please don't say people were just addicted to random loot.
- Diablo 2 isn't a roguelike (roguelite?) it just borrowed some ideas from those.
- You're playing on normal difficulty, it's supposed to be easy.
- It could be that the game is not for you, but I played it for thousands of hours and even I despise the grind in A3. When playing online you just asked someone to town portal you to the council and after that to Mephisto.
You have to understand there are three difficulties which you can only unlock after defeating the last.
You could also try playing on hardcore if that isn't hard enough for you.
The game is fun because of all the customization, builds and classes there are. Also finding rare runes, gears and weapons is a blast.
It's mostly meant to be played online, but I'd really suggest against it until you at least beat it once offline.
It's what I'll probably do, but I still want to understand what makes people think it's good. Maybe if I do I might get to discover an aspect of it I ignored and get to enjoy it.
I think the problem is it controls like a RTS/Moba. You give orders and the character tries to follow them. Like 'move to that point' and he tries to find the shortest path. Combat happens the same way. 'Move there and hit the enemy' and then both exchange blows with hit chances. At least as a melee character getting hit is unavoidable regardless of skill, so by design they have to give you unlimited HP in the form of potions or magical attributes in gear. And with infinite HP there is challenge.
This is very different from games where you directly control the movement. Think Golden Axe (a different genre, I know, but similar enough). If you are good enough you can complete the game without being hit once.
You ever been around a military regiment before anon? Mary Sue is basically another way of saying baby's first. Its been a part of modern vernacular for decades now.
Anyway, diablo II was good with other people. Playing it alone I'm not surprised yet bored.
>I think the problem is it controls like a RTS/Moba
"Roguelite" is a term referring to games like dungeon crawlers that borrow some superficial features of roguelikes such as randomly generated levels and character permadeath, without actually being roguelikes. Generally I've only seen people use it to refer to more modern games like Binding of Isaac but I can see how it applies to Diablo.
Can you move with WASD or sticks or a similar control scheme like you would in Ys or Bastion? No, you give commands. Move there, now there. Attack that point, or that unit.
It controls the same as a RTS or Moba.
If you like character building and loot grinding it's the perfect game.
If you aren't a retard it's garbage that was clearly inferior to its predecessor, which is the actual game that roguelites draw from.
How does this make sense? Why invest in a permadeath game when there are hours and hours of non challenging gameplay until you get to the good part? Then if you die you will have to grind through the boring shit again.
In modern roguelites any mistake you do in the beginning carries on so every part of the game matters. How can D2 be considered one of the best games ever?
And if not playing on hardcore, how is it rewarding at all?
1. You're still on normal difficulty, which is the worst part of the game
2. You're not playing with other people, which makes the game much more enjoyable
3. The game is old, you should have played it when it was fresh
4. You probably haven't gotten any decent crafted items, runewords, uniques and set items yet
Do you even have the expansion?
I always kinda looked at it as normal mode being the tutorial. Figure out your build, find an item or two and get comfy. Then it gets much harder with each difficulty level.
I generally only play hardcore, so can't comment about regular scrubs. You get to where you can bang out normal mode in like two hours so it isn't even that bad.
no one made a better random loot system and character building is superb, even with a stat system where pretty much everyone pumps vit
the replayability was just something else
I don't think the game is for you then.
the sole focus OF a rogulike is replayability via customization and loot drops you fucking moron.
stop bitching about the main factors of the games you want to play
maybe these games aren't for you
My nigga. But to call it a loot game? Yes I know there's tons of different loot but major variations are only resistance types or damage types on a limited amount of class based gear. Though to be honest it's gear choices were amazing it's just that none were hard to get.
>tfw vampirism crossbow conjurer with fire demons
A big part of why people like it is in that it was very much so a 90's game. It came out and had some of the best cgi seen at the time and had the darkest feeling over all in a series which was lost in D3. The loot system is nice and all but most of the time you arent looking to milk the trade system because of limited inventory and inconsistent item sizing. Which ties into potion use, they take up inventory space, particularly in early game where you have 8 belt slots instead of 16. They made using town portals and identifying items meaningful unlike D3. As far as combat systems go it falls back on when it was made and who made it, 90's and Blizzard, which is why it feels like an RTS. They only made those up until that point. The last thing I want to note is that a part of the difficulty is actually meant to be derived from the skill tree which is a big thing that sets D3 back, in the game you build your character how you want. Which can screw you when it comes to some spots such as facing Duriel as a skeleton army necromancer. But since you're playing the paladin it's not surprising that the difficulty isn't what it could be due to high defense and their buffing skill set.
>which is why it feels like an RTS. They only made those up until that point.
D1 has better atmosphere and story, D2 is infinitely superior in every other area.
It destroyed the genre because it's so well made hardly anyone can even get close to that level of design. All that with graphics that looked aged at release, or maybe because of that.
While I agree with your statement I don't agree that it's the same loot systems mentioned in this thread.
Why? Because in my eyes having to "loot" my wizard and conjures spells and summon scrolls was just getting my character the basics back. It was just to cast my spells. Same with war but they only had 5 skills.
I get there's fireball staffs light staffs force of nature staffs but every triple dire ball staff is gonna be the same. Every plate helm with electrical resistance is the same. You feel?
There's no point in arguing with someone who's so fucking retarded that they chalk up every difference between D1 and D2's gameplay as something that D2 changed for the better. D2 focuses on completely different things than D1 did.
I feel that's one of the redeeming factors of playing alone actually. when every item you can use matters then you have to actually start building your character accordingly. Instead of just knowing you're going to have a HoZ with shako top which forces you to already start leveling blessed hammer. Why not find a two handed axe and have to be a charger but then you find a one handed sword and decide to start mastering zeal?
>all these people calling diablo a roguelike
do any of you even know about the game rogue?
But how viable is it to play Hell difficulty on single player? Aren't some characters so gear dependent you'd have to farm for an unreasonable amount of time to make them work without trading?
>no negative magical attributes
>no negative shrines
>no permanent debuffs
>no spell scrolls
>free skill points every level
>skills are strictly locked by level and class
>items locked by class
They streamlined it so much. I'm surprised people complained about casualization of Diablo 3 compared to D2 when D2 did the same with D1.
But it also had several improvements. Diablo 1 is pretty old now.
I wish someone made sort of an 'ultimate' diabloclone, with the best aspects of every game (non-blizzard ones included). The potion system really fucks up the whole game, though, I don't see how it could be changed but changing the controls to something like Ys like >>322898989
It's called Hell for a reason anon.
This is why I thought it was a good idea for Diablo 3 to split torment into so many tiers. Because you can slowly start to realize what you need to get to X. Although it suffers from the need to be shoehorn ed into certain builds at that point.
>D2 is infinitely superior in every other area.
>the potion system
This is a cop out but: you could just not use them. Or limit yourself.
It's like the people who thought crysis had shitty game play because they just ran around shooting. But whenever someone posts that video of some guy playing crysis with all the armor powers flying around they immediately reinstall.
This. D1 wasn't really about building a character, it was about choosing a class, going dungeon crawling, and working around what you get. You know, like roguelikes. Trying to have that same experience in D2 will fuck you over, which is total bullshit.
>the simplest skill ice beam goes from a 30 foot single target line
>runed it can turn into a 10 foot aoe icenado
Cmon my nigga a lot of runes completely change how a skill functions.
>The potion system really fucks up the whole game, though, I don't see how it could be changed but changing the controls to something like Ys like
What about the PoE flask system? Cool item possibilities, and they're not really unlimited. Would only require some fine tuning of the gameplay to not allow the town portal scrolls to be free refills, so the difficulty would not be in not getting hit, but in being an efficient enough killer.
Try it. The game is fun.
Just avoid Diablo III. even Reaper of Souls did not fix it.
My brain crawled out my nose and ran for the hills trying to understand the utter nonsense you wrote in that post of yours.
1) Diablo 2 only gets good once you hit level 30 and unlock level 30 skills, and not with a paladin that can't even AOE unless you use that stationary hammer skill. Paladin is broken for regular play since he has no aoe
2) I don't browse /v/, I browse /pc/ everyday tho and I'm a master of diablo 2, for real. I've even used tools to conduct my own experiments on it on stat related maximization. If you want to ask me more about d2 make a thread on /pc/ and I'll answer everything
>grandfather of roguelites
Of course there were features from the old system that were lost and many of those could work in D2 but I don't see those as really worthwhile.
Cross class skills were added years after expansion, and D2 has class locked items.
>Paladin is broken for regular play since he has no aoe
>tho and I'm a master of diablo 2, for real
it's not like you will spam them every monster and return to town after two minutes, or that you will pot tank anything strong
they were a little too much I guess but fuck cooldowns
The challenge is completing the quests without having your HP reach 0.
Potions ensure your HP will never reach 0.
So there's no challenge.
You can actually still die but the game is extremely permissive with 99% of your mistakes.
but its not about spamming them every monster, its that any time you are in a place of trouble you can just spam them. its about negating any danger to your character that makes potions bad.
Ok I get it but point and click combat usually means no dodges, melee characters must take the hits no matter what. Can't see this working without lowering the damage.
You wouldn't get it but back in the day getting your first high level set/unique drop from Mephisto, getting rushed through Normal/Nightmare, struggling through hell or doing Baal runs was a blast.
why did they choose mouse only combat? they force this on the pc, yet the game would do much better with keyboard movement and mouse interactions.
diablo 1 on ps1 is superor to pc in some aspects because no mouse movement, but imagine both. would be great
and then diablo 3 for no reason at all arbitrarily limited pc to mouse (and stripped the game of splitscreen for console exclusive features) while the console version plays even better, fucking why?
That's different, you're still getting the hits it's your passive stats that lower or neglect the damage.
Setting cooldowns on potions would fuck melee characters over because they need to tank the damage. I think the problem here is trying to not gimp melee and still not be a snoozefest for casters.
Yeah. There are two ways of doing it which work:
- Direct control system where you can actively dodge and block (Gauntlet, Ys, beat em ups, Nuclear Throne, etc.). Every now and then there might be health pick ups if the developers are nice but they are technically unneeded.
- Turned based system where combat implies being hit like it or not (roguelikes, trpg, etc), and you have to gauge which fights to take or not based on your available health kits.
Diablo 2 has real time combat like the first but with unavoidable hits of the second but with big hordes you don't want to miss like the first but with potions like the second.
It fails to be as challenging in the action aspects as the first or in the tactics aspects as the second, you just chug potions and continue clicking.
PoE sort of makes the available potions proportionate to the kills you perform, Diablo 3 does something similar with health orbs.
Other systems like Diablo 3 cooldowns or Dota's healing only while not hit just make the game slower.
If they switched to a WASD/twin stick control scheme you could actually do things like attack while moving, something that's impossible right now.
I'm pretty sure it's always the same person who makes this "D2 threads is shit" over and over just for ebin lulz and bait images.
A summoning Necromancer will be the easiest/laziest start except it'll be a bit boring and sometimes frustrating in narrow hallways.
If you want to farm bosses, go with the Sorceress.
Otherwise just choose whoever seems most appealing.
Makes sense. I guess it would be possible to make a game with D2 type of combat and without potion spamming but one that would balance damage values for every character. This type of combat system is flawed though and I don't think this will change in the near future. Everyone seems to go into the TPP beat em up type of thing.
Its simple as fuck, thats why its perfect. Its like top down doom. Its easy to pick up and learn, and extremely satisfying despite having shallow mechanics. If you dont like it by act 3 then its obviously not for you op
I think a large part of what made the game enjoyable was the atmosphere/story. How the story was told, through gameplay and level design.
Also talking to each town member after each quest to hear all their stuff is fun if you are into that kind of thing.
Now that we are on it, let's add more fuel to the fire:
- Diablo 2's inherent currency system (gold) sucks. Only useful to gamble because the game is about getting items, not anything else, so why would you actually fight enemies when you could just gamble.
- Diablo 2's durability system sucks. Improved a bit with ethereal items but it still sucks, repairing is just an automated action without consequences.