So, when are gonna have the discussion of wether synths are real people or just machines? Fucking never? Why do i have to go to bunker hill and get the synths from the railroad myself? why do synths want to escape the institute? what the fuck game
Created by machine + Controllable by machine = Machine
Synths are NOT people. If they were not born from a human womb with full human material, they are not real humans (Test Tube babies are acceptable too, but borderline). Fuck clones, fuck Synths.
i don't want to discuss it with you people. I want the game to give me the discussion and let me take part in it. I want to try and convince father that synths have free will and should be treated as living people. I want to try and make the railroad understand that synths are just machines programmed to feel like humans. I don't want to just pick a side and be done with it.
Doesn't really matter does it? I could say I'm 45 and you'll assume I'm whatever age you need for your own personal narrative. So I haven't seen short circuit and certainly don't intend too, here's your chance to educate me.
>don't want to dicuss it with you people
>posts in public forum
but they emotions and and and and
no no no no no
every mother fucker from /v/ to god damn mat pat FORGETS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACT
the god damn recall/reset codes
no human has them no living creature can be "reset"
I meant i don't want to get into the discussion of wether synths are people with you guys. I want you to tell me if the game ever does get into it, like it fucking should.
And i want to complain about it being so shit, if it doesn't want to acknoledge the discussion.
No - but if they could create a retrovirus to change their genetic structure they may gain a soul as they are no longer genetically identical, but I don't know enough about metaphysics to be sure.
Are synths actually sapient or just artificial? What the fuck are the Mr Handys for that matter? Codsworth seems self-aware but no other robot appears to be.
Where does this put the ZAX units from previous games? True sapient AI needed to be housed inside enormous machines.
I'm going with the head canon that time + learning = real boyness until Bethesda sort this huge fucking pothole out.
Thanks, im still thinkering with it though. Here's curie's ass
Yet. I'm sure that, if some sort of scientific organization without any sort of ethical restraint devoted over a century to studying the human brain and ways to control it, they would inevitably discover ways to make ordinary people do whatever they want.
I feel like your concept is that a soul is just unique genetic code which seems like a weak argument. Generally souls are considered a metaphysical thing. Maybe souls are drawn to a particular genetic code and are finite? That could mean there are naturally born soulless humans too.
>Believing in souls
Handy's/Nanny's in 4 are sort of a retcon; they're not nearly as intelligent in any of the other Fallouts. They're basically sentient but not sapient, bound instead by the shackles of their programming. Synths are evidently sapient, or their shackles are so incredibly complex they might as well be.
>no other robot appears to be
Tons of Mr. Handy's seem self aware.
Curie seems sentient, and latter has her consciousness transferred into the body of a Gen III synth.
They really haven't made it clear enough in regards to AI
Dicks also plop out of vaginas constantly. Your dick doesn't get a soul from plopping out of a vagina and neither does a baby! Souls must come from genetics. The only way your dick can have a soul is if you're a chimera and your dick is genetically different.
Considering they have functions vaginas I cant say I give a shit.
Plus Synths ironically are better people than normal people, as evidenced by valentine and curie - but sexdolls aside, synths should only be used as fodder to fight wars for you.
jesus, this is why i didn't want to discuss it with you guys. Who gives a shit if there is a soul, i just want the game to have a conversation with me about wether synths should be treated as living intelligent beings or just machinery
>Glory dying to BoS attack
>tell her I don't have time to listen to her
>Dying she says she was expecting to see a light but there's only blackness
This is how I knew killing the Railroad was the right thing, synths are just toasters that think they're people.
My dick is part of me. So I figure my dick just transfers the soul to me but since presumably there's one here already the spare buggers back into the vahoohaa. I'm pretty sure that's how babies are born
I don't know, do we get stronger the more souls we have or is a soul just an extension of our persona after death? We may never know.
What we do know is
jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
I think in this conversation I've sort of turns souls into some sort of ghost parasite. So we don't get stronger we could only have 1 per host but twins only have fractions of souls
Since its not up for a discussion, no matter how you look at it they ARE HUMAN,
They share human DNA
They are fully organic and indistinguishable from any other human
They can procreate with humans
From a biologic standpoint they belong to the same species as us.
And within a single generation of synth/human children their offsprings will lose any implant parts and be 100% human in every way.
Their origin dosnt matter, as even in nature animals reproduce in weird ways and sexual reproduction is only done by a tiny fraction of earths living organism, most numerous ones like bacteria and other single cell organism reproduce asexually by just coping them self.
The question the game posed was "are they sentient", but that question is ultimately pointless.
Due to their similarity to humans interbreeding is unavoidable, and within a blink of an eye nobody will know who has synth origins within them.
To me Railroad was the only faction worth joining, as they were they only ones doing anything good.
Brotherhood was fascist religious sect based around the person of Maxson, with plans of mass genocide of everyone "unclean", unstable and held together only by their hatred sooner or later they will fall apart or start another war.
Institute made too many enemies to ever survive, by the of Fallout 4 every living person on the surface is their enemy and they have more than enough elements inside it trying to tear it apart. Be it synth uprising or revenge from people of commonwealth, they are doomed. Even without the player interference synths already put plans in place to free them self from their oppressors.
Minutmen will join who ever you chose.
>Not figthing for the waifutution.
>Not shooting down /pol/therhood of butthurt's flying dildo.
wasn't there an AI in Fallout 2 that said China and America making true AI made the AIs know emotions and felt depressed that they can't see the world and shit? and that the nuke wars was their suicide
>confront Benny and let him escape to the Fort
>let yourself get ambushed in the suite
>don't let yourself get ambushed in the suite
>have him crucified
>challenge him to combat
>talk to Swank and keep your weapons in the casino
>don't keep your weapons in the casino
>don't distract Benny's bodyguards
>distract his bodyguards
>attack him on the casino floor
>attack him in the suite
>confront him in his room, let him go
>confront him in his room, attack him
Whether synths are conscious, free-thinking beings or not is irrelevant, but not entirely. They are Institute creations. They are created as full human adults with a specific purpose in mind for their creation. Thus, it makes sense that we would use them as we would use any machine.
The difference here being that synths can also be capable of not just the single purpose they were created for, and for all intents and purposes can be considered to be functional human beings.
Some of them achieve fell sentience.
The crazy pirate robot that commandeered the Constitution has a terminal that reveals he suffered a malfunction that caused him to go beyond his initial programming.
Codsworth is mostly still bound by his protocol, since he's been cleaning your house through the apocalypse, but has become more of a person.
There are plenty of robots in 4 that will openly discuss how they're bound by programming, like he asshole waiter robot that begrudgingly sells you food.
They're literally fucking robots you homos. Who gives a shit about objects? Are you sentimental?
>"Sir, the assaultron just asked me if it had a soul."
>"Well private, what'd you tell it?"
>"I was gonna tell it no, but in case it somehow developed the ability to feel emotions too I didn't want to tell that to a robot that could easily rip me in half."
What seperates a Naturally born human with a clone? If the institute had augmented surface dwellers to have the same functions and gen 3 synths then would they be considered machines?
With sufficiently advanced technology, humans could create synthetic humans that are made exactly the same way, using the same stuff, that real humans are made of, right down to every individual neuron in the brain.
I'm pretty sure the synths in Fallout 4 aren't that advanced though. So they're machines, just very convincing machines. Their brains have to be pretty complex to behave and act the way they do, though
So are you. You were built by a mobile compact facility most likely over the course of 9 months. Gen 3 synths are built in a less sophisticated but faster way. The only thing separating a gen 3 synth and you is there is not a mind control device stuck in your head.
Alright, let's see how deep we can make this conversation while limiting ourselves to the dialog system in the game
>Hey there anon, say do you think synths are living intelligent beings that should be treated as such?
>le you are the same as an artificial robutt meme
Oh, fuck off. I hope technological singularity actually occurs and you fags get to go first.
I just had my first experience with one that I know of. It was the guy holding a gun to his twin claiming he was a synth trying to replace him.
I tried to intermediate but the fucker on the ground tried to kill us both when I convinced the other to lower his gun. Turns out he was a synth and he really was trying to kill and replace the guy.
Before this I was pretty ambevelont about them but bow I say smoke the fuckers. Unless its an old fuck like Valentine or a newborn baby synth on my side like Curie, if I find any synths that have infultrated any place secretly they die. Fuck those things.
thats why Im iffy about the whole thing.
gen 1 and 2 Synths are definitely not human, and are machines, but gen 3 are pretty much humans, just made from a machine instead of a womb
No part of Fallout 4 approaches the "what does it mean to be human" shit on anything more than the most cursory, irreverent level. It was even beaten back heinously this past year in that category by a fucking shit-ass wonky Amnesia rehash.
>it's a /v/ discusses what it means to be a person thread
They are real people, the game clearly treats them as such in no subtle way, and the institute is just too ignorant to see it.
The railroad is too retarded to see their value as being equal to human life, instead of more than.
The only views not birthed out of pure ignorance and retardation are the M&Ms and the Brotherhood.
But can a robot fall in love?
if you watch the way they make gen 3 synths you'll see them use real bone, and human tissue to make them, they arent robotic on the inside, they are flesh and blood. the only thing that makes you different from a gen 3 is you were made in your mommy's womb while they were created by a machine
From my perspective, humanity is an abomination.
Synths are a metaphor for every character in the whole game. If you get attached to every other NPC but think synths are just artificial intelligence with no free will, you are fucking retarded, because beyond the fourth wall there is no difference.
>but I dont have eggs or a womb, so am I not human?
I mean you're made from that. Through that process. Fuck.
I'm not religious but stay triggered.
They're not self aware they're strong AI's. It's emulation and blatant trickery.
>implying there is something like a "soul"
I don't care if it's bait, this is just bullshit
Am I the only one who thinks that shoehorning in an issue ripped straight from Blade Runner (and making it the central focus of the plot) was retarded?
I'm actually torn between Bethesda ripping something off and designing something themselves, because Fallout 3 sucked shit and FO4 was SORT of enjoyable. Still, nothing like the older Fallout games.
thank you anon, for this. I never expected anything like this from bethesda, but at least a little bit. At least a try from them. Considering that this isn't a new topic, they could have stolen bits and pieces from everywhere. I didn't expect not even adressing the issue in the game, though.
An AI never "thinks" the same way we do. It can never develop emotional tied preferences. It's called artificial intelligence for a reason, it's fake. It's a glorified high tech calculator. A microwave made with machines using unorthodox materials with high computing attached to it, that's it.
It simply isn't human, it's a property with no rights. I bet you give nicknames to your fridge.
It just feels so out of place.
A heavily forced Blade Runner plot does not work with Bethesda's forced whacky 50's setting one damn bit. If Beth at least tried to bring in some of the 80s/90s influences from the earlier games then they could have made it work, but in Beth Fallout time stopped in the 50's and never progressed.
And they didn't even have the goddamn common courtesy to include Deckard's gun.
made or produced by human beings rather than occurring naturally, typically as a copy of something natural.
the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.
no where in the definition of AI does it say it cant think the same way we do, or that its fake. its simply an intelligence humans created. that doesnt mean its fake. humans are natural things, what we make is natural, just as a bird's nest is natural. a being or creature created with flesh in a lab and given intelligence created by humans doesnt make it a machine, it means its a creature created in a lab.
if a synth is created for a purpose, then chooses not to do that and escapes, its making a decision on its own and using the intelligence given to it to make that decision.
A living organ born through natural and human way. Smashing a telephone is not a crime nor is it morally wrong or despicable. Doing something similar to a real person is inhumane. It makes your very being cringe in protest if you're not a sociopath.
Humanity comes first and foremost. When your TV decides not to display channels you want it to then it's trashing time.
Pretty much, but like what is their "greater good"? What is their end goal? If you beat the game siding with the Institute they just don't have any enemies and they put synths out in the open on the surface to let the commonwealth "simply know we exist". And then they do nothing. It's almost implied they are making the child Shaun synth in order to make synths that can reproduce and grow like humans, as if they meant to create a new race of superhumans to replace man. But they refuse to admit synths are anything but tools, non-sentient robots. So they're basically: fucking retarded.
I can never tell if you people are just stirring up shit for fun or if you genuinely think this way. Regardless of how a sentient brain is developed (evolution of human engineering) it's the same object. Destroying a human brain (or "cappin' a nigga" to help translate for you) is the action you are calling morally wrong.
So you're given a human and a synth that looks exactly the same and behaves like a normal human would. You're asked to determine which one is the synth.
Your solution is... kill one and see if it makes you feel bad?
Dude one is a human brain the other one is a computer. I will rather save a retarded person than a really advanced clock.
I scan the fake nigga and pull his plug out. Fuck being tricked, especially when a human life is at stake.
>my son can't sing! I'll kill him instead of my radio given the choice!
Hope your fucking daughter is braindead you cable fucker.
It's because you said
>something that can actually do something.
You value functionality more than human life. You're a spoiled psychopath mate. How did you get past the captcha?
>scan the fake
The hell do you mean, "scan"? You just carry an X-Ray with you at all times?
And you'd willfully end the life of a self-aware being with no justification other than "look, it thinks it's people"? The hell would you do if you were raised in a society where blondes weren't considered people?
He'd do something like this
You contribute nothing to society. You're posting on a Chinese cartoon porno site, your semen is pipe cleaner at this point. You might even be inferior to a retard.
And you're a still human.
>The hell would you do if you were raised in a society where blondes weren't considered people?
What kind of a disconnected example is that? Robots are objectively not human unlike blonds.
>I want the game to give me the discussion and let me take part in it.
That would require some effort and some conviction from the devs, you don't want to offend people and hurt their feelings right?
>this adjective that i can only define in the most arbitrary, circular terms is totally objective
>everyone in history who killed people due to perceived inferiority, inhumanity, or ungodliness was wrong, but i can't be
You think this hot piece of stately manhood didn't have have taste and his pick of the litter?
Fallout 4 never even bothered to figure out why the Institute was making synths or why they were bodysnatching people and replacing them with synths, and those are primary story beats that the game should have touched on.
If they couldn't get those parts on paper, what makes you think they could handle writing a nuanced debate on the rights of synthetic life forms with free will?
In this instance, there's nothing to support that he did.
Perhaps. But is it not more likely that he liked conventional beauty dipped in a chocolate glaze?
>There are plenty of robots in 4 that will openly discuss how they're bound by programming, like he asshole waiter robot that begrudgingly sells you food
how does being bound by their programming make them not sentient?
i am, as a human being, bound to desire certain things (food, sex, etc,) and I can't really choose to stop desiring them
And the plot is retarded. I still dont understand why they had to make Gen 3 synths when most ended up being useless. I'd understand if they collected data by infiltrating enemies, but the fuckin game
Why am i think thinking about this. The game is shit and the story is shit and undeveloped.
Took me half a dozen tries to get the result I wanted: ambushing him alone in the presidential suite, shotgun to the face, leave him rotting face down on the carpet. Felt so satisfying.
I beat Fallout: NV about three times and I still don't know who the fuck Raul is. Or... Bonnie? That is the name of that faggot?
Geez... I don't even know if I visited all vaults.
>Black people are people, Jewish people are people etc.
The point is, not all people agree(d) with this. And they used the same reasoning, "what I say is human, is. What I say isn't, isn't."
Memes aside, those people are wrong.
People advocating that speakerphone has human rights are wrong too.
it could've worked a bit better if they actually gave the players a real reason to fear synths. Like maybe some being bodysnatcher bioweapons to push an agenda, or having a "freewill" that could be overridden at any time without their knowledge or consent, making them perfect sleeper cells with technology that could be used for graver purposes.
Instead, it all just comes off as a forced "muh humanity" or whatever, just there to make a Bladrunner reference for the sake of being a Bladerunner reference.
Why's it not human? It's got flesh, blood, general human DNA. Entirely capable of procreating with a human. It just was manually put together instead of being developed from Chromosomes.
Kill all synths.
Kill all sympathizers.
It's the only way.
No soul would willingly inhabit a machine even if it has human parts.
>i tip my fedora
How about the fact that you're alive, and yet science can't explain why, otherwise we'd already have 100% organic "synths" walking around rather than a bunch of lifeless but otherwise fully functioning bodies lying around.
>And yet science can't explain why
Obviously in Fallout 4, they did. ANd that's how they have synths.
And even then, you've still yet to do anything other than go
>muh, muh soul!
You're sitting on a chinese cartoon board shitposting about a mediocre video game. Most of the synths in said mediocre game do much more than that, so I doubt a soul holds much water.
You dont understand Bethshit game, anon.
They always present you with a problem and multiple people with different stance that will hopefully cover all point of view. You "debate" by shooting/hacking the sides you dont agree with.
And doing something as persuading an institution take too much time. You cant persuade one side without persuade its opposite. Institute created synth from scratch but they are still mentally defect. Synths are also vital to their operation in the roles of slaves of course they wont see synth as anything more than flesh robot. Railroad cant be changed without changing the institute and vice versa but both have been going at it too long to be cheapened by some speech check. And do you honestly want half the end game to be a cyoa novel?
in fallout 1, you "persuade" the master by pointing out a convenient plot point
in fallout 2, you can persuade an enclave stormfront scientist to blow the base up for you by "it's not mutation, it's evolution lol"
in fallout 3, you point out eden's logical fallacy (50's science lmao)
in new vegas, you point out how legion cant hold both east and west at the same time
all are physical/political arguments rather than ideological. while the synth problem of fallout 4 between factions is one of idea and morals (nobody care about joe the wastelander anyway)