Let's talk about level design in Sanic for a while.

you first.

Very specifically sanic or can it be about side scrollers in general?

I will say that I enjoy that Sanic features very few bottomless pits. It's interesting how the stages have such a significant amount of vertical space to them and that the only punishment to falling is not being on the higher path, rather than death.

>>322285859
dude sonic is so overrated am i rite. not like nintendo

>>322285859
http://youtu.be/MqLKJ808J4o

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>"J-just hold right bro!"
It still amazes me how little credit people give to the effort and layers of complexity that went into Sonic 1/2/3/K/CD. It's like the recent Sonic games are so mediocre that they've literally wiped peoples minds of how much genuine care and understanding of game design can be seen in the level designs of classic Sonic.

Pic related

>>322286149
LOL fuck my earssss

If they just pulled back the screen more so I know what the fuck is coming forward by just some amount I'd be able to get into 2D Sonic

>>322287730
Man, that's all games these days.

>>322287730
play the Taxman re-releases, they're widescreen so you have a greater awareness of what's ahead of you

alternatively, git gud

>>322287325
It's like the mantra of someone who only played Sonic Advance.

>>322288063
taxman games on pc fucking when
sega what the fuck

>>322288179
It's pretty easy to set up Bluestacks with a controller, so Taxman Sonic 1 and 2 on PC is ezpz

It still makes me salty though. I would actually buy it if it came out on PC. "money where your mouth is" and all that, I want to show my support for the Taxman projects

>>322286080
This is very true, and I'm suprised it's not brought up more when people are bitching about potential future 2D Sonic games. I think there are less than 10 botomless pits in the entirety of S3K, and Sonic CD has only one in the entire game, and it's in the last level.

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>>322288150
Nah, even Sonic Advance actually had decent and layered level design. Sonic Advance 2 was when "hold right to win" really started. It didn't become a genuine problem until Sonic Rush, but people have been parroting it for years.

Lord fucking knows why. The same people who complain about "hold right to win" are often the exact same people who complain about not being able to see what's ahead of you, and "getting punished for going fast". How about you fucking play the game instead of holding right and complaining when it doesn't work?

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>>322285859
heres some quick shit in paint
i love how sonic level design has multiple paths

>>322287325
Its so complicated when you see its like a spinballing maze

>>322289026
honestly even sonic rush didn't have that, it was ONLY sonic advance 2 (and sonic colours ds)

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>>322289026

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>>322290275

>>322290275
Is that Ocean Base from Sonic Advance 3? That game, I found, had entirely the opposite problem of "hold right to win". The level layouts were convoluted, frustrating (despite not even really being difficult), dull and repetitive. It's a shame too, because I really liked the partner mechanic of that game.

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I've been playing Sonic CD recently. Its weird how if you're just going right to win and beat the game with the Time Stones, the levels are a bit disorderly and chaotic at times (particularly Wacky Workbench and Stardust Speedway, sometimes Collision Chaos). However, if you are actually trying to use the time travel gimmick to find the machines and Metal Sonic generators, it becomes clear that the level design was trying to compromise exploration with the Sonic 1/2 level formula, but didn't quite work out. I think this is mainly because in an A to B timed obstacle course, backtracking and exploring feels counter-intuitive to the goal of the game when there's a more streamlined alternative, which is the previously mentioned Sonic 1 formula. It would've been nice if the levels were designed in a more open world exploration sense while still encouraging speed and roller coaster landscapes to travel through the four time zones, and made the primary goal busting the machines corrupting each zones future.

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Did anyone play this game? I really liked it as a kid but I never see it mentioned

>>322290641
That's how I feel about CD's levels.
Except CD also shits 30 springs per level on top of it

>>322286149
>Marv plays zelda.jpg

>>322290805
I'd always argue that in and of itself, Sonic CD has some of the best level design in all of Sonic, and all of platforming in fact. They're designed in such a way that they feel like playground. They feel much more 'natural' in design than the carefully considered level layouts of Sonic 1 and 2, and you actually have to "earn" your speed much more than in any other Sonic game.

But that's all completely dashed out the window by how frequently the level design literally cockblocks you. After Palmtree Panic, every single time travel post is located near an area that will give you ample speed and then cut you off immediately, thus ruining your time travel opportunity.

>>322287325
>It still amazes me how little credit people give to the effort and layers of complexity that went into Sonic 1/2/3/K/CD

It really doesn’t, because that mostly doesn't matter. Most of the various paths don't matter as long as you go through one of them, and unless you specifically want all the chaos emeralds or whatever, you can always ignore the rest, and even then you get enough extra opportunities you don’t have to worry. Had the levels been designed specifically to reward you for finding all that shit, that would have been cool, but there's no reason to care and the core gameplay isn't exceptionally great.

>>322291102
The Flicky mechanic kills it for me. If they played it straight as a simple isometric Sonic I'd have probably much preferred it

>>322291102
It's honestly a guilty pleasure of mine, but I completely understand the problems people have with it. The music's fucking great, though.

I haven't played the Saturn version, but I've heard that is has probably the best special stages in the series.

>>322291480
Some of the time zones also feel more or less half-assed than others. Partially because the level designers had to consider just about any point where the player could time travel, and avoid them being stuck in a wall.

>>322291102
I played the genesis one over and over and over as a kid, because it was the only one easy enough for me to beat.

I liked the music, and I liked seeing tracks from it remixed in Sonic Adventure.

Anyone got that webm that shows why modern sonic is terrible compared to the genesis sonic games?

>>322289026
The problem with Sonic Advance 2 onward was the new mechanic of "Boost Mode" which encourages the player to keep moving forward unobstructed for as long as possible. The levels are designed around this mechanic, and every time they actually put in any kind of obstacle, the player feels "punished" for not having the level memorized. (when in reality all the game is doing is taking away muh speeds for a couple of seconds)

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fuggin' love this stage

>>322291620
>the core gameplay isn't exceptionally great.

Compared to what, exactly? What is it doing that it fails as a 2D platformer?

>>322292489
inb4 mario

i never understood the appeal of sonic.

>>322292774
Can I help with that?

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>>322292774
because you're not autistic

I started replaying Sonic 3 recently. I never realized how good Mushroom Hill is until now for some reason. Not sure why I used to hate it.

>>322292957
I'd rather be happy than /v/'s definition of normal at this point.

I like Sonic CD. I think its level design gets some unnecessary flak at times.

But goddamn, Wacky Workbench is the worst thing ever conceived by a human.

How does sonic still survive when the there hasn't been a good sonic game since 1994?

>>322293259
Video games don't have to be good to sell.

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>>322293063
Be honest anon, you are neither.

>>322293320
I don't know how to answer that...

>>322293006
But is it better than Pumpkin Hill?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wUixhV13gI

>>322293259

>parents who buy the latest sanics because they don't know any better
>kids who buy the latest sanics because they don't know any better
>fans who desperately hope it'll get better
>fans who will buy anything sanic

Sonic 2 had my favorite levels, I actually still enjoy every one. Cave was probably the worst.

>>322293308
>>322293561
How has it lasted on goodwill for so long?
Is sonic actually some triumph of marketing?

>>322293519
Happy nor /v/'s definition of happiness.
You are neither of those things.

>>322293728

Colors and Generations restored some goodwill. Lost World was hit or miss, but not totally awful. Boom was the first unanimously terrible game since 06, but people are still holding out because that was Big Butt and not Sonic Team.

>>322293728
It's marketed towards children.

Go into Toys 'R' Us. There's tons of Sonic action figures. And I'm talking even before the Sonic Boom commercial came out.

Kids don't know if the games are bad. They play for the characters.

sonic>mario

>>322293994
>Sonic Boom cartoon*

>>322291480

I don't want to state absolutes but I feel like most every level in SCD has a section where you can just bounce between two springs indefinitely, which while nice feels like a copout for the mechanic.

>>322293259
The last good sonic game was in 2013.

>>322294085
wario > mario > sonic > donkey kong

>>322293259
In fairness, people give Sonic too much flak. Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 were "good for their time" (a phrase that is so often thrown around) but aged poorly in the long run. Sonic Advance 1 and 2 were okay but uninspired, Sonic Rush was pretty good, Sonic Colors and Generations were decent for what they were trying to do.

It's a cycle of hope and despair. Generally, it tends to go like this
>Release a 5 or 6/10 game, with plenty of good concepts but some hackjob-tier execution
>Release a 7 or 8/10 which takes the good concepts of the prior game, and improves them. Everybody gets their hopes up that this is only the beginning of a new 'Golden era' of Sonic
>Throw everything that worked out of the window and start again with a completely retarded idea of a new game. 3/10. Everybody proclaims that Sonic was always shit

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>>322293994
This is fucking bullshit.
They didn't have any of those fucking action figures when I was a kid.
These fucking companies are fucking laughing at me...
... making awesome Sonic Heroes figures and classic Sonic figures when I'm fucking 24 and too old to have any use for those things.
I would have nearly died seeing those things as a kid.

I mean jesus fuck, do kids these days even know who the fuck Team Chaotix is? Why the fuck are they selling them NOW!?!?

>>322294597

because people like you will buy them

>>322294597
>do kids these days even know who the fuck Team Chaotix is?

Sega still uses the characters, so yes? Why wouldn't they?

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>>322291102
>Fuckies island

>>322294597

If they read the comics then probably.

>>322294519
I pretty much gave up on the series after unleashed

>>322291620
Is easy to tell who's never played a Sonic game when they complain about shit that's completely irrelevant in a Sonic game.

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>>322288179
>>322288063
I don't think Taxman is going to be working on the PC ports,

he is currently working on pic related

>>322295860
Sonic 2 was literally my first game. It's hardly bad at all, it just isn't some paragon of exceptional design.

>>322294519
>Sonic Advance 1
>Uninspired
Nigga you can fuck right off that game was and is incredible.
It's the only game that deserves to be called Sonic 4, the level design was pure classic Sonic, the animations and visuals in general were charming as fuck, they actually got the physics nailed (literally the only time post Mega Drive this has happened), and on top of it all they got the original composer for Sonic 1/2 to do the music.

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>>322289026
>>322292132
Sonic Advance 2's level design was not that bad at all. Yes, it was a bit different because of the Boost Mode mechanic but it was still very well designed. There are still multiple pathways and lower, middle, and upper tiers to the stages. It was also very rewarding to try to keep your Boost Mode active for as long as possible and complemented the high speed platforming of high skill 2D Sonic playthroughs.

So, every time I've played a classic sonic I've never really enjoyed it. I always thought the sprites were to big / zoomed into much, and I could never get an accurate grasp on what lied ahead. I end up taking a lot of jumps or whatever blind, or just running into shit I didn't know was coming and didn't have enough time to react to. I think a lot old 16 bit games suffer from this problem, not just sonic.

>>322290416
That some Sonic Advance 3?
Yeah son, my favourite game of the advance series.

Sonic 3 is fucked. There's parts where you can just get caught on level geometry and it completely kills the momentum. People say the newer games ruin this whole thing but it's not like the older games are free from this shit either.

>>322294597
>These fucking companies are fucking laughing at me...
It's easy, I'm laughing too.

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>>322294751

Not all of them...

>>322296904
>and on top of it all they got the original composer for Sonic 1/2 to do the music
First of all, this never happened. They got permission from Masato Nakamura to re-use some of his earlier tracks (Sonic 1 music, invincibility theme and so on) but the music was done by all-new composers.

But yes, I stick to my guns in calling Sonic Advance uninspired. It did a lot of good things - the level design was solid, the physics were on-point, and everything was as it should be. However, it definitely could not ever live up to the title of Sonic 4. Sonic 2 changed a lot of things from Sonic 1, and Sonic 3K mixed things up greatly compared to Sonic 2. Sonic Advance 'plays it safe' so to speak.

With that being said, I did love Sonic Advance, especially Egg Rocket, the Tiny Chao Garden, the Casino level and a good majority of the bosses. It was a good game for the most part.

Oh yeah and the Special Stages were some of the shittiest of any in the Sonic franchise.

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This is the most frustrating Sonic level I've ever played. The damn switches.

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>that bit in chemical plant where you literally outrun the camera

it's such a simple thing but it gets the point across so well. I'm entirely convinced it's just a bug because there's no reason they wouldn't be trying to replicate it in more recent games if they didn't want to.

>>322298618

I don't believe you, because if you played that level then you had to play through Wacky Workbench before reaching it.

>>322297936
How does Sonic Advance not add enough things like 2 and 3K did to its predecessors? It adds a brand new character Amy with her unique playstyle. The original trio each have a few new moves, it incorporates grind rails into the level design, and Knuckles can now float on top of water.

That's a hell of a lot more than the real Sonic 4, which was just a blatant nostalgia rehash with the homing attack poorly thrown in so it does deserve the title.

>>322298716
>I'm entirely convinced it's just a bug
It was.

>>322297258
You playing on emulator or modern system with a USB or wireless controller? Because that is likely why you can't react quick enough. Nobody had any trouble reacting to these games back in the day. Now it would be easy to just call your lot a whole generation of skillless losers but it is a fact that USB or wireless gives you a large handicap, and your TV/monitor setup may too. These games are designed for a very different setup and are designed well for it.

Now, if you have the same problem on a real Mega Drive playing on a CRT monitor then of course you just have a bad case of get good.

>>322297936
>Sonic Advance 'plays it safe' so to speak.
Considering how 80% of the series turned out, playing it safe is a good thing. Sonic needs to fucking play it safe more often.

Following a formula and adding a new playstyle isn't a bad thing at all.

>>322298716
This right here. I don't think any level in any game gives me the same satisfaction.

People need to stop saying
>Thing is bad
When they mean
>I don't like thing
Sorry your brain is too slow for sonic, maybe you'd like jrpgs or books. But just because you can't enjoy them doesn't mean they are bad. Just not your cup of tea.

>>322298828
With Wacky Workbench, it's at least slow platforming confusion with a stupid bounce floor, but Stardust Speedway is all of the confusion of Wacky Workbench, without a bounce floor, but you're now going 600mph.

>>322298716
You can do it in Advance too.

>>322298716

I love that feeling of a game falling apart (though still clearly under control, I don't mean shit like sonic 06's general failures)

Like this, or when you go over the HUD in NES games, or when you cut so many pieces in Metal Gear Rising that the game's framerate just dies.

Shit like that. It's wonderful.

>>322297392
Weird how you like the game with the most bullshit level design in the series.

>>322299702
He said Advance 3, not CD

>>322291620
>he doesn't find the paths because he wants to find them

Jesus christ.

>>322285859
The Genesis Sonics had god-tier level design. CD wasn't quite as good but still pretty damn great. If you want an example of how NOT to design these types of levels play Freedom Planet. That game has such lazy design which is a shame because the levels look fantastic.

What was the issue with sonic 06 exactly?

>>322299871
Bullshit entails level design that fucks you over often because of shit design. Advance 3 is full of things that can crush you without you even seeing them and enemies that are poorly placed and you can't see coming.

CD level design is complex and maybe some would say convoluted but there's not really any "bullshit" excepy Wacky Workbench's floor panels. There's not even any bottomless pits except in Metallic Madness Act 3.

>>322299871
Sonic CD isn't filled with bottomless pits, instant death crushing platforms, and the enemy placement isn't nearly as bad (it doesn't have enemies placed right in front of speed boosters).
It's different from classic Sonic, but CD's level design is intentional and has goals to accomplish, it's based more on exploration, which is emphasized by the robot generator and holograms you had to find.

>>322300156

man, what wasn't the issue with it.

I honestly think it's the kind of thing you have to experience, just watching a video simply isn't enough. That said if you don't know just how bad it really is, a video will get you the basics.

I really like how CD has milliseconds on the timer.

It's such a small thing but it really helps in that feeling of going fast. Shame it's used on the one genesis-era game where going fast is kind of the opposite of what you're expected to do.

>>322294597
I actually would have jumped so hard on a Team Chaotix playset when I was 9.

The best they had to offer on video game toys when I was a kid was leftover figures of Epona from Zelda at KB Toys and whatever tie-ins they had with Burger King or whatever.

>>322300446
Actually Sonic CD had a dedicated time attack mode, something Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles each lacked.

Sonic CD introduced the concept of a time attack, that later Sonic games would hold dearly.

Hmm, I wonder if there are romhacks that let you time attack Sonic levels? I'd like that.

>>322299936
I have no reason to want to find them though. It's just not all that interesting.

>>322300572

Yeah, that too. I feel like all of those would have been great additions to the genesis games, assuming they were possible without the use of the CD add-on.

>>322300446
All the games from Sonic Adventure onwards have milliseconds too I think, so they definitely saw the appeal of it as well.

>>322298896
Personally, I found Amy's playstyle dull and pointless. But that's just me. Knuckles' new abilities were nice though, I'll concede that.

>>322299282
I'm not for one second going to deny that Sonic should stick to the tried-and-tested. In fact, Sonic Advance was the first Sonic game on a Nintendo console if I remember correctly (or did SA2B come first?), so it was kind of necessary for it to stick to the status quo in order to introduce hardcore Nintendo-only fags to the concept of Sonic.

All I said was it was uninspired. I enjoyed the game. It's probably in my top 5 Sonic games. But calling it uninspired is pretty much a fact.

>>322300156
It was literally released in a pre-beta state.

>>322300262
The craziest thing is even if the game WASN'T bugged to shit it would still be fairly terrible.

>>322300925
I'm glad it was bugged to shit, because if it wasn't it'd just be another Heroes. A game that isn't notably horrible, but just boring as shit and kind of annoying to play.

06 is so fucked it's actually pretty fun to watch it totally disintegrate in your hands. Well, outside of Silver's storyline.

>>322301089
It'd still be better than heroes because it wouldn't have that annoying ten mechanic

>>322301268
Now that's just hyperbole. Sonic 06 still had some of the worst story, worst level layouts, and all-round poor gameplay choices in the entire series. Sonic Heroes was shit in a kind of inoffensive, 'wow this game isn't very fun' way. Sonic 06 is just bad. It was a bad game built on a bad engine with bad plot and bad assets.

>>322301268
The team mechanics were a decent idea just implemented really badly. It should have been similar to the different color boost strips and gates in Fast Racing Neo. Switch to the appropriate color (or in Sonic's case teammate) to get a speed boost or activate one of the automatic launchers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kszpzJThCrg

obligatory

>>322300925
>>322301089
It really is hard to talk about Sonic 06 because the development history was so absolutely fucked. Like, the gameplay sucked but what if they had time to make it better? The level design sucked, but what if they had time to make that better? About the only thing set in stone was the major plot points of the story, which in and of themselves were terrible but could be tolerable if there was good gameplay.

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>implying this isn't the best sonic game

>>322302687
>About the only thing set in stone was the major plot points of the story
Not even, really. There was apparently some big divide over whether the object Mephiles was sealed within was a scepter or a book.

>>322302837
But it's not a Sonic game, it's a Shadow game.

>>322294102
I tried doing an all time stones+all generators and holograms destroyed (have to travel to the past for every act) and I can tell you, it's not even close to every level.

>>322303072
Why didn't they do more shadow games?

>>322303717
Do you even have to ask?

>>322303717
>Wanting to play as a copy

>>322303717
Because after Sonic 06 they collectively decided that every character who wasn't created in the Genesis era (aside from Orbot and Cubot) were kicked out the door except for Generations and spin-offs.

>>322303653

Been a while since I played CD so my memory is hazy. it sure felt like there were dedicated "auto-travel" places in a lot of stages though. Another that comes to mind is doing circles on one of those conveyor belts in metallic madness for example. I guess it's not just spring-traps though yeah.

>>322302837
I unironically enjoyed this as a kid and as an adult, there were some genuinely fun levels in there even if all the not-gameplay elements were hilariously bad

>>322303983
>homing attack
>goes off edge of the level

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>This whole thread
I'm not sure if all the kids are asleep or something but it's like a refuge from all the underage in this board.

>>322289026
Sonic Advance's level design was fine, but its art assets weren't that great and too much of the level looked like it was floating. You never felt like you were getting anywhere because every single part of the level looked like everywhere else. Any good level design needs at least one unique setpiece, even if that's only made through a combination of assets seen elsewhere.

>>322302837
>first 3D game with consistent single-character gameplay
>most levels of any 3D game
>each level had multiple branching paths
>fast travel between checkpoints
>fucking amazing soundtrack
>edginess was in the Saturday morning cartoon variety instead of actually trying to take itself seriously
That game really did do a lot of things right, too bad it was buggy and the controls were sloppy.

>>322303717
Why didn't they do more good games?

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>>322303717

Would you want to do a shadow game?

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this game had very lovely levels

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>>322304559
Yugi boy

I could never get into Sonic because
A: The platforming really isn't that good
B: Gotta go fast is fun and I realize the level shouldn't play itself for you but when not going fast the game is generally unfun because of A

I honestly want to understand and see what everyone loves about them because I feel like I miss out

>>322304287
Anon, the game is ridiculous and silly, but it's clear the devs were taking it seriously. We can look back on it and laugh, but it wasn't intended to be so comedic.

Is it even possible to do Sonic in 3D properly

I mean the Adventure games were the closest I ever saw but they had some pretty clear flaws that only really became obvious after the DC died until they dropped that style with 06 bombing. Unleashed onwards just feels like you fly through a level by holding down boost until you get to a 2D section, and while I liked Lost World it's barely even sonic at that point.

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In retrospect, I think Aquatic Ruin has really good design. It fills in the "obligatory water level" slot, and the first few times you play it it's extremely frustrating because you keep smashing into grounders and going underwater. After you play it enough times, you can blast through it and never even touch the water. Also the tree canopy parallax is gorgeous.

>>322304215
You're absolutely right about this.
It's most evident in 3.

>>322304287
>fast travel between checkpoints
Why would you ever need this in a normal Sonic game?

>>322304949
>Is it even possible to do Sonic in 3D properly
Third-person parkour. Of course, Sonic Team hasn't really attempted that; there are parkour elements in a lot of games but they've never built an entire game around it. But if you consider the Genesis-era games to be 2D momentum based platforming, then 3D momentum based platforming should revolve around parkour.

>>322305053
You wouldn't, but they at least had the foresight to do that instead of making the player backtrack along a mostly linear level path or start the level from the beginning if they missed a single objective.

>>322305046

If 3 does one thing right its how acts 1 and 2 of each stage don't just feel like two levels reusing assets. Like for example Angel Island is on fire, Carnival Night's power goes out, you enter a pyramid in Sandopolis, Lava Reef is crystalized, etc.

>>322305010
Love that level, really you have the easier top layer and the more challenging underwater sections if you get bored.

>>322305053
You need it for the Hero and Villain routes, I think.

>>322305252
I meant advance 3.
The sameyness of the assets is very evident in advance 3.

>>322305226
A lot of the missions in Shadow are outright terrible so the fast travel doesn't really make me happy. It's just expected for that type of gameplay.

>>322305317

well I fucked up

>>322300156

I would say just about everything, but mostly, it honestly doesn't seem like it was meant to be a sonic game and then all the sonic parts were added into it and the game retooled

>>322297864
>>322294751
Say what you will about Mighty, but he kept Knuckles Chaotix from being Sonic the Hedgehog Presents Knuckles Chaotix. Apparently Artoon's CEO owns his rights.

>>322305010
Aquatic Ruin is probably the most textbook application of the upper-middle-lower level design philosophy of Sonic. It's not very hard to stay on the middle path but if you ever fuck up, the bottom water path is a really big punishment that nonetheless gives you a different fun in its own way experience, and the high path is extremely hard to keep on but is filled with rewards. Other levels often have the paths lock at some point, or will mix up whether you want to go higher or lower, but AR has them all interact with each other throughout and you always know which one you want. It's a good thing, and also sort of a bad thing since it makes the level a tad predictable.

>>322305485
That is a dumb rumor.

>>322305485
>Apparently Artoon's CEO owns his rights.
If that was true he wouldn't be in the comics. They can only use stuff Sega owns and allows.

outube.com/watch?v=03YuqOuUr5E&t=63m15s

Stardust Speedway GF Metallic Madness P Metallic Madness GF most aesthetic?

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>>322306306
If we're talking about pure aesthetics, then Knuckles Chaotix is the king.

>>322289000
Even though generations had a shit load of bottomless pits, it also had a much bigger focus on the multiple paths thing, most levels sporting 3. So 1 step forward and 2 back, i guess.

>>322305665
>>322305827
Well, shit. Why keep him in limbo when he could be alongside his fellow Chaotix? Being a literal Sonic edit doesn't stop Nintendo from releasing Gold Mario and Pink Gold Peach as their own characters. Make Chaotix 2 instead of fucking around with Sonic Boom.

Whats your favorite

>classic
>handheld
>3D

game?

For me its
sonic 2
sonic rush adventure
sonic adventure 2

>>322306904
At least it had the signs so there werent any leaps of faith

>>322307006
3K
Advance 1
Generations

>>322306632
Hell yeah

Best music and best visuals of a Sonic game. I really liked all the characters' abilities too, the rubber-band mechanic and the Special/Bonus stages. It's just a shame that, like later Sonic titles, it's let down by some of the most uninspired level designs ever to grace the platforming genre

>>322306913
He was never officially part of the Chaotix, he was just visiting the island Knuckles Chaotix took place on.

He was also probably supposed to be Sonic at first since his sprites look almost exactly like Sonic but edited.

>>322306913
The Chaotix were only brought back in the first place because they wanted another three-member team for Heroes. Knuckles is already part of Team Sonic, the robots had no chance, so of the remaining 4 Mighty was dropped because he's literally a Sonic clone in all of his prior game appearances.

>>322307006
3
I dunno. Rush I guess. Need to play the advance games
Either Adventure or Lost World

>>322307006
S3&K
Advance 2 was the only one I played
SA2

>>322294408
donkey kong > sonic > mario > wario

>>322307285
>adventure 1
>lost world
>hasnt played advance trilogy

What are you doing in this thread. go play them nigger. I have all 3 on my psp and theyre great to pick up and play

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>>322307118
>best music
>not Genesis 3D Blast

Anyone in here like Sonic more than Mario?

>>322307006
>2
>Rush
>Adventure 1

>>322307448
>>322307285
>>322307114
>>322307006
Also i should have added on for the handheld, gamegear games. I know 99% of people here are nintendrones who have only ever played a gameboy but sega once had a handheld too. So gamegear/gameboy advance/ds counts as handheld

>>322307515

I'm sure I'll get to the advance games eventually. Right now I'm working through some other game but finishing sonic 06 is right at the top of my priority list after I finish that, and then unleashed since it's the only mainline 3D game I haven't played before.

>>322307618
Always and forever

Sonic and Sega are spiritually close to me

>>322307618
grew up sega so yep

Only mario I ever really got into was 3D World.

>>322285859
le sonic was never good maymay

The Advance games are my cocaine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ixg96gKPz8

>>322307532
>best music
>not Genesis 3D Blast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfG09iLCKsM

>>322307618
In terms of 2D shit, definitely. Mario's 3D games are way fucking better than Sanic's, though.

>>322307727

I grew up with the PS2 and Gamecube, but Sonic games always were a blast to play through. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Sonic Advanced 1-3, Sonic Heroes, and Sonic Riders were all really enjoyable as a kid.

>>322291642
That's why the Super Sonic romhack for the game is also based off the romhack that removes the need to collect Flickies.

>>322307797

Even though I'm not a fan of the game, it has a pretty good soundtrack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf7-ixllcgo

>>322307667
Thats fine. Sonic 06 really is bad but its good that youre still experiencing it yourself. Youll go through awesome levels like kingdom valley or crisis city or lost jungle and just wish they played great. Lot of interesting ideas thrown in but none of them were finished sadly.

Youre in for a real treat with unleashed. Make sure its the 360/ps3 version. The ps2/wii one is utter shit.

>>322307979
I agree with you. It wasn't bad for Sega's first stab at a 3D Sonic Game, but it had a lot of shortcomings. Music was not one of those shortcomings.

>>322308078

I already went through sonic and shadow's stories and had some fun (though not for the reasons the devs intended I'm sure) yeah

I think my favorite moment was when I fell out of the world, and was just waiting to hit the killfloor so I could start up again, but somehow I got snapped onto the underside of the level for a few seconds before sonic (and elise, think this was one of the jungle stages) just came back up and everything went to normal as if nothing happened.

and yeah it's the PS3 version for unleashed

>>322307952
My first console was a sega saturn and i played the original games on sonic jam. I was entranced by the speed, environments, music, they were really great. Then there were other amazing games like nights, panzer dragoon, clockwork knight, daytona, etc that kept me hooked to sega. Naturally I got a dreamcast next when it came out and once again got an amazing experience overall with the adventure games and then stuff like pso, jet set radio, house of the dead 2, typing of the dead, skies of arcadia, daytona usa 2001 etc.

After that I got an xbox because i was hearing how thats where sega was mostly going and again just loved their output. Later went back and got a genesis as I got older, and as you guessed, loved that too. I never really undestood the hardcore hate for sonic. The only terrible games are shadow and 06. Every one else has flaws but is ultimately redeemable and fun to replay

>>322285859
As far as speed runs goes the levels are designed around the idea of you knowing what to press to overcome an obstacle before it comes up on screen.
In the early marios you could rely on reflexes to dodge on screen obstacles.
It allows you to go faster in sonic but it manes a larger part of the gameplay is based on memory. It has its charm but i prefer mario.

>>322306057
INITIATING RECOVERY MODE

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>>322304949
>>322305115
>the Adventure games were the closest I ever saw but they had some pretty clear flaws

The Adventure games certainly had flaws, but their basic movement systems were incredibly solid for such early attempts at translating the 2D gameplay into 3D. Sonic's behavior on slopes and his acceleration/deceleration are completely in line with momentum based platforming, the only problem is Sonic Team didn't utilize or highlight those mechanics in their level design very much.

As for momentum in 3D otherwise, parkour is jumping the gun in a strange way. The two relevant examples of parkour in videogames that I can think of, Mirror's Edge and Sonic Lost World, don't use fluid, physics based momentum.

I want to direct you Sonic fans to the Marble Blast games, they've got physics nearly in line with the genesis Sonic titles and highlight the feasibility and appeal of proper ball-physics in 3D. Marble Blast Gold is freely available online.

>>322287325
Why do people say Sonic CD is the best one?

It's so freaking ugly.

>>322308323
Well thats what happens when a game is rushed out in its beta state to make it for the holidays. You know honestly, as a pure adventure game (not sonic adventure, just adventure genre) sonic 06 is pretty varied and structured nicely with the different hubs and stages. But the story and glitches really weigh it all down

Youre in for a treat with unleashed ps3. I consider that the ultimate adventure game just for the sheer amount of areas you travel to in the world. Its actually the best looking sonic game to date still and has a really homely orchestrated beautiful soundtrack. If you can get past the werehog its a serious work of art. Feels like playing a pixar movie

>>322308516

Yeah I got into the Saturn and Dreamcast during middle school/high school. So many amazing games for both consoles. PS2, Gamecube, Saturn, Dreamcast, and Xbox 360 are my favorite consoles of all-time.

I don't know, I kinda liked Shadow the Hedgehog. Was it a good game? Wouldn't say so, but I had some fun with it.

>>322308745
>The two relevant examples of parkour in videogames that I can think of, Mirror's Edge and Sonic Lost World, don't use fluid, physics based momentum.
Then Sonic can actual be a pioneer in gameplay for the first time since Sonic 1.

>>322308745
The problem with using marble blast is that its..you literally play as a ball the whole game. The physics are smooth but the levels are just sandboxes with no obstacles besides rolling to the end. A full console game needs more effort than floating platforms in a skybox surrounded by generic art. And of course the question, what happens when sonic uses his feet.

>>322308745
Is Marble Blast like Super Monkey Ball?

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Sonic Colors has the best level design in Sonic's entire existance

You literally can't prove me wrong

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Who is this babe?

>>322309051
Well if you had fun with it then of course youll like it. I had no fun at all with shadow which is why I cant stand it. The weird checkpoints, the shitty mission objectives, the guns and vehicles, how bland everything looked

>>322309353
yellow spring levels

>>322309353
Yeah, Floating Boxes and Metal Platforms: The Game sure does have the best Sonic level design.

>>322309291
Similar idea, they're both marble rollers. Marble Blast has jumping and gated exits though.

>>322309141
They've been a pioneer in their field all this time, how many games can you say play like Sonic at all? Also, my point is that parkour isn't the sole solution to the problem, and I think it's too ambitious if we're trying to find ways to translate the 2D formula into 3D.

>>322309256
The initial concept for Sonic and the defining concept for his gamplay was ball physics. Rolling and spindashing are incredibly emphasized techniques in the 2D games, so I wouldn't dismiss Marble Blast on that account. I also disagree on the level design, the game uses linear platforming challenges and more exploration-based "gem-collecting" levels. Those linear levels are a basic, but very effective example of level design that challenges the player's ability to control their own momentum, and I think that's the core of what Sonic was about. As for how Sonic works on his feet, we'd have to look at other games, and I concede that point.

>>322309291
I think you control the stage itself in SMB, but you only control the ball in MB. You can also jump, and there are in fact various powerups and hazard objects.

>>322309361

amy's mom

BUT IT'S JUST A THEORY

>>322309361
Deepest lore

>>322296680
>taxman working on donut steel planet 2 instead of S3&K
FUCK

>>322310393
>>322310674
>>322309361
Seriously does anyone know? theres an achivement for finding that statue in the recent port.

>>322310847
they had a basis for it, but SEGA literally refuses to let them continue or finish it because of some sort of nebulous copyright reasons

>>322310904

it's just an easter egg

like the truck from pokemon

>>322310361
>and I think it's too ambitious if we're trying to find ways to translate the 2D formula into 3D.
They already translated the 2D formula to 3D with the Adventure games. The problem was that they tried to port conventions that worked in 2D but not in 3D. Parkour would bring over the 2D formula in spirit by providing a basis for 3D platforming that contains momentum-based gameplay.

>>322310925
>nebulous copyright reasons
It's music rights issues with regards to the guest composers in Sonic 3. Some of them were involved in unspecified legal action against Sega over it a few years ago. Stealth himself talked about it.
http://www.sonicretro.org/2015/02/regarding-sonic-3-guest-post-by-stealth/

>>322310847

As nice as a taxman S3K would be, I'm more than content with Sonic 3 Complete

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>>322309361

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>>322311242
Same. Sonic 3 Complete is amazing and I can't really see Taxman doing anything S3 Complete didn't do.

>tfw Tails Assist in single-player
Fucking god tier.

>>322311509
>I can't really see Taxman doing anything S3 Complete didn't do.
S3Complete is missing one extremely important thing: being an official paid release so I can express my desire for Sega to fund more such remakes by giving them my money.

So whatd you guys think of the huge info bomb of rumors yesterday?

>>322311694
Like?

>>322311694

I think I got shitty threads I made on /v/ listed on rumor sites before, and more importantly I saw shit like the rayman in smash "leak" about a year ago, so I don't trust any rumors without some kind of definitive proof.

>>322306057

>good plot
>good characterization for everyone not named Amy
>good music
>tight controls
>unique and fast battle system that generally rewards offensive play

It was a good game. There's a LOT that could have been done to improve it, but it was good.

>Environments were bland
Create interactive environments with gimmicks; destructible walls or floors, moving platforms, add springs, bumpers, ramps, etc.

>1HKO Ichikoro Bar broken
Have specials do extra damage based on how full the bar is and drain it, without actually going to 1HKO territory, or even 50% health territory

>Heal overpowered
Lower the health and Ichikoro bar refill rate significantly - potentially allow characters to steal Ichikoro when a hit is guarded

>Instrumentation sucked
Music was good, but instruments were awful. 3DS, or any current system, could easily solve this.

>Balancing issues
Patches and play testing should solve this. Failing all else, just nerf Shadow.

>Little combo variation (3-Hit, Heavy, Wall was usually the right thing to do)
More moves would be available with more buttons, which every system has now. Just have another dedicated attack button, and another for evasion. Have certain moves be evade-able, and others not, while other moves don't provide ichikoro if blocked

A sequel would be great.

>>322311213
I just don't think parkour is a necessary way to do that. I wouldn't mind Sonic Team expanding on and improving the system they used in Lost World, but I don't think a Sonic game would benefit from being centered around that. I also don't understand why you insist parkour provides a basis for 3D momentum based platforming, I haven't seen any examples of parkour doing that in video games.

>They already translated the 2D formula to 3D with the Adventure games
Not successfully enough according to A LOT of people. Sonic Adventure 2 is in my top 5 favorite games of all time, but there's too much clumsiness and automation/gameplay interruption for me to call it a successful translation.

>>322311694
Not believing anything until there's something official.

>>322311893
>I also don't understand why you insist parkour provides a basis for 3D momentum based platforming
Because that's what parkour is in real life.

>>322311509
>I can't really see Taxman doing anything S3 Complete didn't do.
On his proposal website, Taxman puts forward the idea of taking the 2-player levels (Azure Lake, Balloon Park, Chrome Gadget and so on) and turning them into full, single-player, 2 act zones.

So there's that. Five extra zones of S3K? Sign me up

>>322311919
>>322311852
>>322311806
>t’s pretty clear that with Sonic’s silver anniversary knocking on our doorstep, Sega has some big plans. We already know of two Sonic related games in the pipeline for early in 2016: The Nintendo and arcade exclusive Mario and Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games that will begin rolling out in February, and the delayed Sonic Boom: Fire and Ice. It’s a given those two will not be the anniversary game–a source tells TSSZ that game is indeed coming.

The source indicates it’s been in development for a while–since before the release of Sonic Lost World, the source says. That shouldn’t be a huge surprise. But here’s the twist: Our source says it was also meant to be released a while back–before Lost World‘s release, as it turns out. Technical hang-ups with last-gen systems shelved some ambitious ideas with the project, the source said. On the plus side, that would put the game’s development time at least at three years, if not four. As the title is now planned for XBOX One and Playstation 4 (our source did not indicate whether a Wii U or 3DS release was coming), we will see how many of those issues were overcome. Our source says there are positive feelings internally at Sega over the anniversary title’s quality–then again, the source cautioned that same feeling surrounded Sonic Lost World; it had high expectations but ultimately saw mediocre reviews and even worse sales.

>About Lost World, there was some surprise in the community when a PC port of the once WiiU exclusive was announced and delivered this year. Our source says that effort was spearheaded by Sega Europe, who saw it as an easy opportunity to make money with minimal porting effort. Lost World may be the first of a larger effort to bring more Sonic and Sega titles to PC and principally the Steam platform through 2016.

>>322312163
>Our source believes several items are in the pipeline and we’ll talk a bit about that tomorrow, but Sonic-wise, the source believes Sonic Colors is a higher priority for porting. Sonic Heroes, which did receive a physical PC release in 2004, is low-priority, and Sonic Unleashed is the subject of internal debate on whether it should be considered for Steam at all.

>If that’s not enough Sonic appetite, our source says a second Sonic Team title may be in the works for next year. We want to be clear that just because it’s a Sonic Team project, that may not necessarily mean it’s a Sonic game. Our source also indicated it would be smaller in scale. We asked if that meant a mobile game was planned, but the source could not say. The source did note Sega of America now has greater influence in Sonic games, so any second Sonic Team title, if it’s Sonic, could be promoted as a bigger deal than it may end up being. Think of how Sonic 4 was promoted years back by SOA as a proper successor to classic Sonic–it turns out, according to our source, that the SOJ side only intended it a simple mobile platformer–and not the spurious rhetoric injected into many fans’ minds before major leaks revealed some ugly truths.

>>322312029
>sonic needs realism to be good

pls go

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>>322312263
>Sonic should never take inspiration from anything in real life, ever
Yeah no.

>>322312425
Rooftop Run will always be my favorite stage ever, if only because hearing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnTyqig1R7I revitalized my faith in video games singlehandedly and pretty much always does whenever I listen to it again.

>>322307625
I'm gonna be totally honest with you.
The gamegear games weren't that good.
Inoffensive at best.

>>322312029
I don't know man, I could load up any parkour video on youtube, and as exciting as they may be, they don't offer the basic shit I need in a Sonic game. You have to remember that Sonic isn't just momentum platforming, it's momentum platforming at high speed with slope acceleration and other things that parkour really isn't about.

>>322312721

You know people like to shit on games like sonic 06 and rightfully so but I honestly think the worst sonic game I've ever played was labyrinth on game gear.

>>322307618
The character? Genesis - Dreamcast Sonic I like better, but modern Sonic I like much less than Mario.

The games? I like the Genesis Sonics over the Marios of that era (though I still fucking love the Mario games). In terms of 3D games, I like Adventure 1 a tad less than Mario 64, and Adventure 2 less than Adventure 1. Everything after that has been heavily in Mario's favor. Sonic Generations was the best Sonic game in a long time but it can't really compete with Mario Galaxy or 3D World (or the Genesis Sonics, for that matter). So basically 90s Sonics > 80s/90s Marios, modern Marios > modern Sonics, and Genesis Sonics > all.

>>322311884
thanks for the writeup chris

>>322289000
People bitched about it with multiple modern 2D Sanic games.

It's just that the only one's who have played the originals and the modern games are usually fans of the series, and are contained in fan forums etc.

>>322285859
Sonic was never good.

>>322308745
Only Marble Blast I played was the one that came out on 360 around launch. And yes, even back then I thought it would be a perfect fit for the rolling in a 3D Sonic. The only thing I'd change is make the camera closer to the one used in Metroid Prime for the ball sections. Otherwise I agree with you 100%.

>>322285859
>>322287325
>>322289026
>>322289046
>>322290275
>>322290416
>>322292437
>>322296941

can someone tell me what makes this good level design?

>lots of different routes
so? everytime i play i can only take one path;
variety only matters on repeated playthroughs
what really matters is that each route is fun to play

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Will there ever be a level as GOAT as Egg Rock Zone Act 2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X96h4HbFpg4

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>>322312425
Sonic needs to go back to the more abstract environments the original had. We had plenty of games trying to shoehorn Sonic into a realistic setting.

>>322313819
In Sonic Advance 1, there are multiple characters so you would probably play through each multiple times.

In Sonic Advance 3 there were chao you had to find in order to get a key to get a chaos emerald. You'd probably miss some in a single playthrough of a level.

>>322313819
>variety only matters on repeated playthroughs

How convenient, that's what 2D Sonic was all about.

You can beat most of the levels in under 5 minutes, and there wasn't a save system prior to S3&K, so a lot of the draw was replaying levels to find new routes and get faster completion times. In that regard, the level design is spectacular.

>>322314006
They've been doing that. Colors uses its theme park set-up for unique settings, the Sonic 4 games are literally ripoffs of old themes to a degree, Generations is.. Generations, and Lost World is so goddamn abstract that it's pretty much a Mario game in theming and just throws around stage design and themes around liberally like a fucking dartboard selection.

>>322312425
Unleashed is as pretty as it is because of its engine, surrealism, and pixar like looks. Most of the games are very abstract and kind of dreamy even

>>322314291
Okay but I mean a game that's actually good. Generations is the only good one you mentioned and that hardly counts when it's remaking levels from the old games.

>>322314405
Lost World isn't inherently bad, it's just not a great Sonic game. The patch after release that made it so 100 rings actually gets you extra lives again made it more bearable compared to at release where the damn thing was insufferable. Colors isn't a bad game either, it's got some questionable stages but the package overall is a lot less filled with bullshit and the game's just mostly straightforward fun again with some gimmick stages that usually don't last long at all, and encouraged exploration if you want S ranks or all the Red Rings.

Sonic 4 on the other hand is basically so bland I can't even properly finish the games myself, so whatever.

>>322314405
What makes Colors bad?

>>322314759
>>322314798
Colors wasn't bad per se I just didn't think it was very good. Lost Worlds was mechanically solid (except for the wonky parkour) but the designs for most levels were terrible.

>>322293006
For me it's the music. Mushroom Hill has the dullest sounding opening stage music in all of Sonic.

>>322296941
Aww damn I completely forgot about the end of SA2's levels.
That was satisfying.

>>322285859
I could have sworn that was a lemmings screenshot.
Also:
>sanic
>level design

>>322311884
Or just get rid of the stupid Ichikoro bar altogether.

But yeah, a sequel to Sonic Battle would be GOAT as shit.

>>322312086
Taxman also wanted include extra zones in Sonic CD and Sonic 2, and Sega letting him add Hidden Palace Zone back into Sonic 2 was pure luck.

What he's proposing is a neat idea, but I doubt Sega would let it happen.