I know I'm late as fuck but I just recently acquired a ps3 and finished this.
Holy shit, this game was a fucking masterpiece from start to finish. It did almost everything right, I liked it more than MGS3 and that fucking ending made me tear up a bit, even though I already knew the spoilers.
Can we have an MGS thread? all game discussion welcome, but I'd prefer to keep rising to its own thread if possible only because it's so radically different.
The gameplay was shit. It had decent controls and that was it.
Stealth was trivialized by auto-camo, buying guns took away a major part of the previous games. Having to find guns and their attachments (like the silencer) was far far better, they even changed the locations of them on harder difficulties.
Care to actually explain why it's bait, other than the fact that you might not like mgs4 yourself?
And MGS3 was pretty awful in most aspects, especially as far as mgs games go. The only thing it did right was the actual boss fights, and only the boss/the fury were even good.
I really don't hate mgs3 but it's definitely not the best in the series at all.
I agree on buynig guns/ammo
but disagree on autocamo, it's far fucking better than the shitty menu diving mgs3 had
the best gameplay as far as actual sneaking was in mgs2 anyway in my opinion, you actually couldn't be seen, none of the camouflage bullshit
>but disagree on autocamo, it's far fucking better than the shitty menu diving mgs3 had
You're not wrong about that but I still think it's shit. That was the worst part of MGS3, how much the game was broken up by constant pausing.
I dunno what the fuck you're talking about, Shadow Moses was the best part of the entire game and then the explosive fucking act 5 afterwards made the entire series for me. It closed up everything fucking perfectly.
Simply epic. Go shitpost elsewhere, people are actually discussing things here and not just spouting memes.
Holy shit. Someone with my same tastes?
I like MGS3 the least because of how straightforward it is after MGS2. It felt like it was looking down on the player, making things overly simplistic plot-wise.
>WE ARENT JUST USING MEMES
>It closed up everything fucking perfectly.
I disagree. Reviving Big Boss and have him go full exposition for half an hour wasn't good. It had some good moments but it was completely stupid and retarded.
You can leave the thread now.
I didn't have too much of a problem with it, since I was already spoiled on that part. There were parts it went full retard like Liquid Ocelot's fucking BANGBANGBANG fiasco but that just felt like regular metal gear to me, and also like Ocelot in general.
>best BB fight
but that was screaming mantis, easily
act 3 stealth was cool but overall it was probably the weakest act.
MGS4 had good gameplay for the first 2 chapters and then it fucking crashed and burned for me. I really disliked it and I liked every other Metal Gear game.
In my opinion MGS3:S is still the best overall Metal Gear game but TPP could change that.
Yeah, following a guy around an almost empty map when there's pretty much no way he will ever see you no matter how retarded you are sure is refined and enjoyable stealth gameplay.
>not running out of sniper ammo and being forced to sneak around the trees with your operator
>not running out of Solid Eye battery in the blizzard
>not having to figure out how Wolf is tracking you to anticipate her attacks in the storm
Mantis was cool but she has little new bits to offer on subsequent playthroughs.
Who here is literally dusting off their PS3 to get GZ and TPP?
I don't game anymore so my PC doesn't have a graphics card and I refuse to buy a PS4.
I COULD buy a card for my PC since it has a good processor and RAM but....I'm not spending 100+ dollars PLUS the money for GZ+TPP just to get it on PC because I am not getting any other games besides this.
But...IDK. Will it really be worth it just for that? I still have to get HD collection for PW as well.
I completed it 2 months ago or something and was pleasantly surprised too. I think it's the greatest fan service in video games or even entertainment industry ever. Reveal of Big Mama was something else. Though it had the gayest scene ever too (first Raiden vs Vamp fight), not that I'm complaining. Generally I think it was on par with MGS3(my favorite so far, haven't played PSP games), only with half of the missions replaced by shootouts. My only regret was that I haven't played MSX games and I felt a bit missed out because of that.
>"U DIDNT PLAY ON ULTRA DOUBLE EXTREME MODE LIKE ME?!!!"
Not even the guy you were replying to but jesus, his point is Act 3 was a fucking waste of potential and basically half assedly designed.
Probably as long as your card supports DX11, it'll be better than PS3. PS3 runs it in sub 720p and 20 fps in cutscenes. Actually even 360 runs it better. And minimal PC settings still looks better than on old consoles.
>running out of ammo
>when drebin exists
>solid eye recharges fairly quickly
>having to figure out shit when I could just look for wolf with night vision solid eye
it was pretty garbage, sniper wolf is still the best sniper fight in the series
I hate when people praise the end fight when it's just the sniper wolf fight with more waiting around
Raiden vs Vamp was definitely not the gayest shit, if you remember the kiss in the final fight. I didn't like how it becomes a TPS at one point with Meryle and crew but it didn't detract from the overall experience. I'll probably play MGR next, then the MSX games, then PW > GZ.
Problem with MGS4 is that it's essentially Fan Service: the Game made only to tie up loose ends that didn't really need to be tied. You can skip it and not miss anything of note, but it is a good game on its own. And it de-pussified Raiden in the eyes of the fans so that's something I guess.
It's much more fun to try sniping from the towers or doing close range on the ground. If you actually engage her, she becomes a very aggressive hunter and the battle takes a whole new direction. Try imposing some restrictions on yourself. I agree that the trucks kind of ruin things, though I could have sworn she knocks them over.
>Probably as long as your card supports DX11
I have literally no card right now. Using the 3770K with built in graphics, so the lowest of the low really. I'd need to get a card. I didn't even plan to get HD collection, GZ and TPP so that's already going to be 100 bucks even used probably.
>closes up nearly all of the loose ends in the series thus far
>You can skip it
it was a lot of fan service but it was executed so fucking well I couldn't help but smile at all the little nods to every other game
I really liked it overall. Yeah, some people had problems with it becoming more like a TPS if you wanted to play it like, but I really liked the switch to urban battlefields and all that entailed. It was a refreshing change from grey corridors and forest from previous games.
still preferred the old camo system, though
Don't know, got that impression because they were penetrating each other from behind several times during that cutscene. Also this
>I'll probably play MGR next, then the MSX games, then PW > GZ.
was actually my plan too, only want to replay the first mgs after msx games and probably mgs3 before boss trilogy.
I hated the MGS3 camo system, because snake carrying around that many different patterned suits is just ridiculous.
It should have just been olive drab jumpsuit that you could smear with dirt/clay/greenery to blend in better to your environment
OP, give it a second playthrough. First playthrough it seems like a fucking masterpiece, but by the end of the second playthrough, you start noticing all the plotholes and how forced the game is.
I played MGS4 at a friends place and marathoned it. I remember laughing my ass off when I first saw Raging Raven, because /v/ was still known for it's undying rage back then. So when she comes out and starts screaming RAAAAGE I'm looking on in disbelief thinking Kojima must have browsed /v/. Everything from start to finish felt amazing and emotionally moving.
It takes another 6 years before I get to play through MGS4 again. Gameplay is fine, but the story is riddled with plotholes and inconsistencies. Seriously, play through the rest of the games and then play through MGS4 again and you will see what I mean. Pace and tone are completely different, cutscenes out the ass and you can see the story stumbling over itself. I like MGS4, because it has the most polished gameplay, but dislike it because it tries to wrap up loose ends and does so lazily.
>First Playthrough of MGS4
>Every Playthrough After
>Crying inside from all the missed potential, and Act 3
Classical Kojima sorcery. Keep in mind MGS1 was using motion capture extensively back on PS1 when most people still learning how to make good use of 3D, for example.
This, I don't even understand why people praise the little gameplay MGS4 has, it's not very good. It's filled with cool stuff and the controls are much better. But it falls apart because of linear levels and bad game design.
>Every sentry guns for you in all out war if detected.
>Octo camo didn't actually add anything.
>Drebin shop was poorly implemented and the game had tons of gun porn but using anything other than the M4 and Tranq gun was stupid.
>The TPS style shooting made running and gunning too easy because Snake could still cheese with health items, unlike MGSV.
>Enemies instant alert when they see you. (Nanomachines somehow found a way to ruin the gameplay aswell.)
MGS4 has tons of cool features, tons of cool stuff, but that's all it is, stuff, it just falls apart as a whole.
>MGS4 directly contradicts the message of MGS2; MGS2 was all about passing on genes to the next generation, and MGS4 is all about laying them to rest. Snake fought to pass them on in MGS2, whereas in MGS4 he decided he didn't have anything to pass on. This is a metaphor for Hideo Kojima, who wanted to pass on the series to his team. After it became apparent that the team didn't quite get the message, he made Old Snake to directly state Kojima's mentality of the series.
>In the prologue, there is a cardboard box labelled "No place for Hideo." At first glance it's a play on words. But it's actually a reflection of the fact that Hideo's ideas for MGS4 were flat out refused by the team.
My beloved monsters, enjoy yourselves...
>But it's actually a reflection of the fact that Hideo's ideas for MGS4 were flat out refused by the team.
Hideo Kojima is the Big Boss of Kojima Productions and the VP of Konami or some shit
they can't "refuse" his ideas.
After finally playing through a second time after like two years, I can safely say that the game is pretty much what everyone on /v/ says about it. Basically it could've been a 10/10 if it had enough gameplay to match all the fucking cutscenes. Instead, there were 3 good acts, some rail shooting, and 10 minutes of dialogue every few footsteps. I really hope TPP has all of the mechanics from 4 or improved mechanics, because it really had the most potential of any game in the series.
what gets me in MGS games, especially snake eater, is how Snake just puts his gun at people and waits for them to talk
He could have easily shot the fear in the head several times as he landed and began his introduction.
The original ending had Old Snake and Otacon turn themselves in for being international terrorists and being executed for their crimes, thus explaining the use of "Here's to You" as the ending song theme. Hideo was literally booed when he pitched this idea.
Not at the threat of the entire staff quitting on him.
lol MGS4 has the worst bosses in the series and bland environments on top of TERRIBLE writing
the only good part of the game was revisiting shadow moses but you don't even get to spend much time there
>"We're going to quit our insanely lucrative jobs working for a multi-million dollar project and one of the most famous videogame series ever unless you give into our demands even though you're the director, writer, producer and our boss in several different fashions"
Camo bascially ruined the actual slteaht aspect of MGS
We were already used to a hgih amount of weapons. Though I'd have preferred if the later games did like MGS1 and 2 and only supplied you with weapons you'd actually need at one point, I like that feeling of having to use every tool I have to succeed.
>playing MGS2 in 2005
>finish the game
>what the hell just happened
>play through it multiple times
>still figuring it out
>read up on MGS2 on the net and on /v/
>ok, that's cool, but it's still too sci-fi to happen to us
>there is so much information at large on the net that no one knows for sure who is right and who isn't, as with internet squabbles like GG and the feminazis
>russian government even uses trolls to sow lies on the net
>'troll' is now a legitimate term in mainstream media
>kojima predicted this in 2001-2002
The Patriots did nothing wrong. You can hate MGS2 for it's gameplay and it's characters, but there's no denying MGS2 was decades ahead of it's time for predicting what would happen during the information age. This is a game that will be recognized as postmodern art ten years from now.
>predicting what would happen during the information age
I told you motherfuckers this would happen.
To be fair, all Metal Gear games change something drastically and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It's pretty much what makes the series so good, they aren't afraid of pissing of the fans.
I would like to point out that, for intellectuals and people who like trippy narratives, Mgs2 is straight up the best choice for the series. So much depth in every level. Only bad part of the game Was Emma and swimming.
>MGS2 was all about passing on genes to the next generation, and MGS4 is all about laying them to rest. Snake fought to pass them on in MGS2, whereas in MGS4 he decided he didn't have anything to pass on.
Isn't this because the passing your genes thing was about Raiden, not Snake?
MGS2 fanboys base the entire worth and "depth" of the game based on the last 20 minutes.
The problem is everything before that- Fatman, Vamp, Emma, "You're...a MAN?" and all this other shit was just a regular MGS game with no "Depth". Just hiding in lockers and snapping dude's necks and shit. It's no deeper than MGS3, it just has a meta aspect in the last 20 minutes that people think makes it "Deep".
Yes but to be fair, so was Minecraft and Heavy Rain. It also was a temporary exhibition and isn't part of their permenant colleciton.
It didn't even feel like a masterpiece during the first playthrough.
The pacing of the gameplay and cutscene was so fucked up that even the amount of fan service it had couldn't make me overlook that.
I've been playing through MGS2 again lately and everything about it blows me away. The gameplay is really good, the story is off the walls but makes total sense, the way how a game made in 2001 was so forward looking about society, the way it was directed was unlike anything else being made at the time.
The best part about it is how it fucks with the player. Everything about the game goes towards this effort. From the gameplay to the story to the voice acting. Swapping snake for Raiden was an incredibly brilliant move. All the hints and clues that were placed along the way about the true nature of the mission and the game. The way the player was deceived in the same way Raiden was. Which when you play it a second time is completely obvious.
The only game that has ever come close to that feeling for me was Virtues Last Reward which also goes to great lengths to involve the player in the game in a way nothing else does, not even MGS4. Kojima is a master of his craft.
That's quite the misinterpretation.
Old Snake is naturally more worn out and depressed in MGS2, but his behavior and philosophy is more or less the same as it was in MGS2. And MGS2 wasn't even about passing on "genes." It was about passing on thoughts, and feelings.
The idea behind Snake's behavior in MGS4, and the conclusion that Magically Revived Big Boss comes to, is that it's better to let individuals in the world make their own decisions and to pass on their ideas in peaceful and voluntary ways.
Big Boss wanted to force people into war. The Patriots wanted to force people into whatever they felt was best. MGS2 and MGS4 are both very individualistic.
You didn't actually play the game, did you? The whole game is essentially MGS1 but with different characters, which was the whole point of the story. The Patriots orchestrated the entire mission for Raiden, so they could see if they could turn Raiden into the 'perfect soldier', like Snake. They based Raiden's mission off of Snake's mission in MGS1. If the Patriots plan succeeded, it would prove their point that human behaviour can be transduced to a simple cause-effect formula. This would then necessitate the need for the Patriots to control information. If anyone can be turned into the perfect soldier, and based on what the Patriots knew about humans and generating worthless data, this would mean that the Patriots could swerve humankind away from generating worthless junk data by controlling information, or by creating context.
>captcha implying I'm not a robot
tfw para medic talks about amazing movies at every save. That was the reason I watched Strangelove that following the she talked about it.
You'd be right if the last act of the game was just a tacked on addendum. But it isn't; it very deliberately builds on and comments on what came before it, and previous parts of the game also very clearly and intentionally foreshadow it. Even the game's development notes/outline reflect this.
But you're missing my point. It's still a game, and the gameplay isn't mindblowing.
Yeah all the themes and stuff in the codec and cutscenes and script are all those things, but in between that you're freezing bombs and stuffing dudes in lockers.
What you just explained is why mgs2 is my favorite. It made me realize how stupid humans are, I played all the mgs series, and when I realized at the end that I was playing the mgs1 narrative again It felt like a slap in the face.
>And MGS2 wasn't even about passing on "genes." It was about passing on thoughts, and feelings.
Right, which means it was about passing on MEMEs. I guess that anon got confused becaue passing on GENEs was the theme of MGS1.
And MGS4 is not individualistic, its entire existence is dependant on the first two games. If Solid Snake of MGS2 is the hopeful and inspired Kojima of 2000, Solid Snake of MGS4 is the worn out, tired and bitter Kojima of 2005. He's tired of making MGS. Maybe he thought "This time it will be my last!", and just gave the people what they asked (Or threatened). He gave us the answers, oh did he ever. Horrible, mangled, stupid answers to questions he specifically created to never have answers.
Canonizing all of MGS2 turned the whole of Metal Gear cannon into a hell hole. No longer could stories just be separate stories, everything now must be connected by everlasting questions and retcons. This is most apparent by making Major Zero into the main villain of the series and completely ruining the whole cast of MGS3 by retconning them into places they shouldn't be. "Hmm, Signet is black, let's make him the DARPA dude from MGS". "Well the doctor lady was a doctor, so lets make her the monster who experimented on Gray Fox". "Ehhh, let's just make Zero the bad guy and head of the Patriots, even though we have no logical reason to do so".
Not the guy you're talking to, but you can find it in 10 seconds on Google. I'll spoon-feed you this one time, though.
Google "MGS2 development plan."
You should be able to find a PDF file of a translated version.
I think MGS2 is one of the best designed games in the series in terms of stealth mechanics. Everything is eloquent and ties together well. MGS3 and MGS4 are clumsy and superfluous in comparison. MGS2's biggest issues are the more or less aesthetically uniform setting, and the dialogue which could be reduced and better written.
Most of it has to do with the excessive amount of cutscenes and the impact of the story on series canon.
Mechanically it's pretty great, unless you're hardcore about stealth games not being action hybrids.
I know the story, I didn't need to read your post
I understood all this shit 10 years ago nigga but see my point here >>277912564
The game is still the same shit but with better graphics and controls. He did subversive things with the story, sure, but at the end of the day they also made a stealth action game that would sell.
You could say MGS3 had deep themes because it dealt with identity and loyalty to one's country, the fact that you had to kill the good guy for political reasons, etc.
>And MGS4 is not individualistic, its entire existence is dependant on the first two games
I meant individualistic in philosophy. Obviously it depends on previous games. I'm also not saying MGS4 had a good story, or that it's even a good game. I dislike MGS4 a lot, but its themes don't contradict the themes of MGS2. MGS4 is almost as misunderstood as MGS2 is.
>You could say MGS3 had deep themes because it dealt with identity and loyalty to one's country, the fact that you had to kill the good guy for political reasons, etc.
And you would be right. The difference is MGS3 wasn't ahead of its time.
Pfft. The cutscences are the biggest one I don't understand. It's not as if they detract from the gameplay, I personally love them, they have great cinematography which really shows through. Who the hell plays MGS for the gameplay anyway? MGS5 is going to be the first game that's going to have gameplay that's fleshed out for a game it's size.
>Who the hell plays MGS for the gameplay anyway?
Why? It's incredibly clunky and interrupts the gameplay, and there's no thought put into choosing the camo anyway because you immediately choose whichever has the highest percentage.
It's honestly just an outright inferior system.
BUT MGS2'S GAMEPLAY WASN'T REALLY AHEAD OF ITS TIME
As a game it was just a good game, but nothing mindblowing. The game mechanics were just upgraded features of MGS1.
Also I didn't find the story as mindblowing as others, it was just pretty good for a videogame
Oh for fuck's sake. Yes, the gameplay is the same, it's a MGS game. But this gameplay ties in with the story. You are emulating Solid Snake. All of the bosses are supposed to be substitutes for bosses in MGS1. Every level is tailored after the events of MGS1. What IS your point, exactly? Because all I'm hearing is "the story is shit because the gameplay is too metal gear-y." It wouldn't exactly be a MGS game at that point if it was a racing game, now would it? I'm having a hard time believing you understood anything of MGS2.
That's still not a valid a reason for bashing the existence of the cutscences in MGS4. The cutscences weren't placed awkwardly, they were done very well in and of themselves, possibly the best cinematography of any cutsences in any game ever. Long ass cinematic cutscence have been a staple of the series forever. MGS1 took off in the first place because of it's cinematic presentation.
I've always been talking about the game as a whole. You can't praise a game just for the story and how "ahead of its time" it was and then ignore that the gameplay wasn't at the same level. Games are about gameplay, not cutscenes.
>But this gameplay ties in with the story. You are emulating Solid Snake.
So what? We know we are. Even after knowing the "deep" meaning it doesn't change jack shit, Im still shooting missiles and knocking on walls. MGS2 fans tend to act like WOOAAAAH KOJIMA REALLY HELD A MIRROR UP TO THE GAMER
We fucking know why we play games, gamers don't give a shit. Just look at GTA5.
>I'm having a hard time believing you understood anything of MGS2.
Ohhhh boy. Here we go. "Its 2 ADVANCED for you!"
The gameplay was not as subversive as the story. It's not like "Woah OH SHIT! I am emulating solid snake but as Raiden! You've changed the way I play games!" You still just play as raiden and fucking metal gear it up.
The closest the gameplay got to subverting you was "Fission Mailed". That moment. That's it.
The rest was just a standard game.
>You can't praise a game just for the story and how "ahead of its time" it was and then ignore that the gameplay wasn't at the same level
Of course you can. When people say MGS2 is deep they're not talking about the gameplay. You have to be intentionally obtuse to conflate the two just because "games are about gameplay, not cutscenes" which are in abundance in every MGS game especially 2
>When people say MGS2 is deep they're not talking about the gameplay.
No, they also act like the experience of playing the game was a bigger mindfuck than it was.
When MGS2 fanboys talk about all the "Deep" shit Kojima did, they act like once the player figured out the point of the game that he had some identity crisis and sat up all night losing sleep thinking about how meta the thing was.
like see here: >>277911023
>So much depth in every level.
What he means is so much depth in codec calls and cutscenes. If it's that big of a deal then go watch the cutscenes on youtube and don't play the game. Watch how utterly boring and not that amazing it is.
It's like saying "MGS2 is deep, post modern art" when what they really mean is "The cutscenes, the movies inside the videogame are the deep art". The game is just a fucking run of the mill MGS game.
Separating the two is stupid because the "deep experience" isn't really an experience in the interactive sense.
Again, when people call MGS2 a deep game they're talking about the story and its narrative themes, some of which is conveyed through gameplay but mostly through cutscenes and codec convos. The commentary about information control and internet culture was undoubtedly ahead of its time. Nobody is claiming that the stealth gameplay was ahead of this time and the deepest ever designed. Only someone who is being willfully obtuse would claim they're inseperateable.
>If it's that big of a deal then go watch the cutscenes on youtube and don't play the game. Watch how utterly boring and not that amazing it is.
It's a lot more boring to do this with MGS2 than it is with MGS4
>The game is just a fucking run of the mill MGS game.
This is the least true statement you've made about the game thus far
>Again, when people call MGS2 a deep game they're talking about the story and its narrative themes, some of which is conveyed through gameplay but mostly through cutscenes and codec convos.
No. No they aren't. They talk about the ENTIRE EXPERIENCE as being some deep thing. As in, WOAH THE PLAYER IS ACTUALLY IN THE SIMULATOR, NOT RAIDEN.
You can't just say "oh no, they don't do that"
go read articles and forum posts from fanboys. Re-read this thread. The experience of playing the game can't be separated if we're talking about it as a work of "post-modern art".
>Only someone who is being willfully obtuse would claim they're inseperateable.
MGS2 fanboys, everyone. They think repeatedly calling someone "willfully obtuse" (without really using it correctly) somehow makes them look smart.
If you're the kind of retard that separates a game's GAMEPLAY from its cutscenes, and then has the audacity to claim the game itself is a work of "post modern art", then you're an idiot who knows nothing about art or even how video games work. The subversion is in the story, yes, but not in the experience of playing as Raiden. At best it's a meta joke.
How can you be this retarded? You talk about the game as a whole, but then you go on to say that the story and the gameplay are things that need to be enjoyed separately? Yes, I kind of understand your point, it was standard MGS fare. But you can't discredit something by taking it's theme or gameplay out of context and then criticizing it. It would equate to bitching about the way people talk in a book which builds it's story around high-fantasy. "These guys keep talking about non-existent places and using strange names, this isn't realistic at all!"
Taken out of context, anything can become stupid. It's the context that makes things great. Even gameplay is based around context. Would it make sense for a game that is about racing to suddenly include a romance sub-plot halfway through the game, in which you have to succeed in QTE's? And then the game continues on until the very end of the game with absolutely nothing to indicate that the romance subplot ever happened? That is poor context.
>This is the least true statement you've made about the game thus far
>MGS2 fanboys point out how MGS2 is just the same events of MGS/Shadow Moses but tweaked slightly
>"MGS2 is NOT run of the mill!....even though I frequently point out how the whole point of the design is that you're basically replaying the events of the first game but with better graphics and a new location"
Old Snake's personality/behavior, and the motives of Liquid Ocelot and Big Boss are the most common misunderstandings. The whole "Ocelot and Big Boss were the true heroes of the series!" stems from MGS4, and it's complete bullshit.
>but then you go on to say that the story and the gameplay are things that need to be enjoyed separately?
No. I'm saying for the game to be this subversive post modern masterpiece that many MGS2 fans seem to picture it has, the gameplay itself has to be more subversive than "Oh you just do basically what you did in the first one lol don't forget to collect dogtags!"
it's not "postmodern art". It's a stealth game with a neat meta factor.
>The idea that the mission was intended to be a retread of shadow moses doesn't mean the entire game is runo of the mill.
In the context of Metal Gear games, it is. MGS3 blows MGS2 gameplay so far out of the water it's not even funny.
>Are you seriously this retarded?
Calling me retarded doesn't make your dumb opinions any better, chief.
>I'm saying for the game to be this subversive post modern masterpiece that many MGS2 fans seem to picture it has, the gameplay itself has to be more subversive than "Oh you just do basically what you did in the first one lol don't forget to collect dogtags!"
That's just your opinion.
Calling me retarded again doesn't make your dumb opinions any better, chief. Sorry you're so buttblasted that serious art institutions don't take your videogame as seriously as you do.
>MGS3 blows MGS2 gameplay so far out of the water it's not even funny.
I love MGS3, but I disagree with this.
MGS2 is a lot more interesting to play thanks to the smaller indoor environments and narrow hallways. I even think the way the guards behave and coordinate is more interesting. The more open environments of MGS3 were a cool change of pace, but the game isn't as satisfying thanks to the camo system and how easy it is to depend on the tranquilizer gun.
>No. No they aren't.
Yes, yes they are.
>They think repeatedly calling someone "willfully obtuse" (without really using it correctly) somehow makes them look smart.
It was used correctly. The only reason it wouldn't be is if you're actually this obtuse, in which case thanks for admitting it.
>If you're the kind of retard that separates a game's GAMEPLAY from its cutscenes, and then has the audacity to claim the game itself is a work of "post modern art", then you're an idiot who knows nothing about art or even how video games work.
You're the kind of retard who thinks the narrative is a meta joke, so you're a bigger idiot then I could ever hope to be.
There's nothing else to say to you. Nobody is claiming that MGS2 is deep on a mechanical level, if you think otherwise you are illiterate.
>And it de-pussified Raiden in the eyes of the fans so that's something I guess.
tried way too hard, and made him a complete retard by the end of the game (has no arms, and is stalling a small army of frogs by doing essentially nothing). They should've just shot him in the face and be done with him, but the script demanded that they suddenly didn't have firearms, similarly with that embarassing Meryl and Johnny scene
how is that stating it as a fact? It's an opinion based on reason, unless you don't think videogames should be judged as art based on their gameplay (the one thing that seperates MGS from just being a movie)
You can have that opinion but it would be hard to defend because you'd have to admit that as an artform, videogames can't be judged with their gameplay THE defining mechanism of the artform. Which it would have to be.
I agree with that Anon that MGS2 is more or less a typical Metal Gear game.
But what makes it interesting isn't that the game mechanics are subversive; it's that the way MGS2 conveys its themes can only be done under the pretext that it's a video game, and a video game sequel. It wouldn't work otherwise. The kind of video game it is (outside of being a Metal Gear game) doesn't mater so much.
Now, see here. If MGS2's gameplay was too different from MGS1, the whole story of the game would have been made void. At the end of the game, when this plot exposition is dumped in your lap, if the gameplay was too radical from MGS1, it would not have made the same impact. The whole point was to emulate the same feeling of MGS1. When you're being told of the S3 plan and you see all these flashbacks to MGS1, would it make the same impact if the gameplay was the same as in, say, MGS4? No, it wouldn't. The reason MGS2 is in the Smithsonian and IS a masterpiece is because it manages to effortlesly combine good gameplay with a mindblowing story with a good amount of social foresight. It was ahead of it's time in all bases. What you see as outdated gameplay was actually pivotal for the sake of the story. Like I said before about context, you cannot remove something out of context and criticize it. If MGS1's gameplay was on par with MGS4's, you would probably call out MGS2's gameplay for not being advanced enough.
once again, MGS2 fanboys everyone.
You keep calling me "willfully obtuse", probably because you heard it in a movie. But you act like it's so insane to- GASP- judge a game for its fucking gameplay instead of separating the cutscenes and codec calls and going "Yeah, this is the postmodern art".
Sorry charlie, but when you judge a game as art, you need to include the whole thing. Nobody judges a movie just by its soundtrack. if a film is shit but it has an amazing soundtrack, you can't say "Wow what a great movie"
>Nobody is claiming that MGS2 is deep on a mechanical level,
Mechanical? Gameplay is more than just controls. The interactive experience encompasses more than that. And yes, MGS2 fanboys claim the gamplay factors into this because you're playing as a "rookie". When I "got" MGS2 I didn't have some kind of identity crisis. It was just "oh thats kind of cool". That's it. Just like with MGS1 and MGS3.
I love MGS2 because I think the plot elements were fairly ahead of its time and because the gameplay was just a more tweaked and refined version of MGS1 that added a lot more on top.
MGS3's gameplay is good but not the best because fulfilling an arbitrary percentage index on your HUD was annoying/broke the flow of gameplay, not to mention the injury, stamina and hunting systems are treated more as an afterthought. I've never once found myself short on medical supplies or without a backpack full of calorie mates/noodles/reticulated pythons.
MGS4 shouldn't have happened. Story was shit. Gameplay was the best of the series, too bad there's only about 3 hours of it not spread out across act 3's snoozefest and act 4's nostalgia wank with annoying robots. Also worst bosses of the main series hands down.
>But what makes it interesting isn't that the game mechanics are subversive; it's that the way MGS2 conveys its themes can only be done under the pretext that it's a video game, and a video game sequel. It wouldn't work otherwise
I'm that Anon and my point is the gameplay could do more to subvert those themes. Think of indie games that do this.
Like for instance, Papers Please. That game actually starts to try and use your empathy and emotional weaknesses against you. Or that other internet game, forget the title, where if you die once you get a game over forever. No continues, and if you try to play the game another day you're just still dead.
Those are subversive gameplay tactics, much more than MGS2. Kojima may have wanted to try more daring things but I doubt Konami would have allowed it with such an expensive game.
That is my point.
>how is that stating it as a fact?
the gameplay itself has to be more subversive
HAS TO BE
Your opinion is baseless. MGS2's gameplay is more than competant, and the themes it conveys and the way it conveys only works as a Metal Gear Solid game. Just because MGS2 doesn't reinvent the wheel and completely innovate stealth gameplay, instead of building on the gameplay established in MGS1 doesn't all of a sudden invalidate the game's themes as being "deep" or whatever.
I hate that picture.
Those statements aren't really contradictory within the context of MGS4. I think Old Snake was one of the better parts of an otherwise unnecessary and irritating game. See >>277912182
When you claim the gameplay has to be a certain way in order for it to be X as its understood, you're heavily implying it's objective.
I hope you're not the same guy portesting being called "willfully obtuse", because that about sums up your post in a nutshell.
Now you're just grasping at straws. You can judge the gameplay all you want, but treating the meta narrative and the gameplay as completely inseperatable is just ignorant, wilfully or otherwise. Especially when you equate MGS2's narrative to the soundtrack in a movie.
Once again, there's nothing else to say to you. Keep spouting MGS2 fanboys everyone!, Nobody is claiming that MGS2 is deep on a mechanical level, if you think otherwise you are illiterate.
Maybe so, but that doesn't defeat how meticulously assembled MGS2 is. Even the game's superficial similarity to MGS1 is a core part of the experience >>277916290
Could it have been more subversive? Well, sure. Did it need to be? No. I'd argue that it strengthens its themes by echoing the original Metal Gear Solid so faithfully.
And, FWIW, I do think MGS2 is fun to play. I love the level design and mechanics far more than what's found in MGS, MGS3, or MGS4. In my opinion it's one of the best *games* in the series along with Metal Gear 2 and Ghost Babel.
>MGS2 is art
You're the same faggots that allowed companies and journalist to say videogames were art. MGS2 gameplay is decent but not god-tier. Splinter Cell handled stealth far better than MGS2. And MGS2 is only threated like a fucking action movie with a deep story.
Step it up MGS2 niggas.
Not the anon you're talking to, I'm >>277916290. I understand your view that a game needs to have flawless gameplay for it to be considered art, but MGS2 came damned close. And besides, 'flawless gameplay' can be interpreted in many ways. MGS2 gave you tools with which to complete the game, and it succeeded well in that department. The gameplay was designed around it's levels and it gave you tools with which to navigate these levels flawlessly. MGS2 was designed on pseudo-realism anyway, what with chin-ups increasing your hang strength, taking cold medicine to induce placebo and whatnot. Here we come to context again. In the context of MGS2, I would say the gameplay did what it was supposed to. I would call this flawless gameplay. In the context of maybe say, CoD4, it works horribly. So you see, there is no 'flawless gameplay' in a void, it needs to have context. I get the feeling that you had some ideas with which to improve MGS2's gameplay. What would they have been?
I had never been in more disbelief and denial after playing a game in my life, followed by extreme bitterness. Not until I just accepted that the game is complete dogshit could I move on and love the series as a whole again. I think MGS 5 looks great and am looking forward to it.
I really do love how divided people are on this series.
Personally, I've enjoyed every metal gear game I've played, but it's interesting to see people's arguments on why X MGS is better than Y, MGS.
>When you claim the gameplay has to be a certain way in order for it to be X as its understood, you're heavily implying it's objective.
No, it's not heavily implying that.
>I hope you're not the same guy portesting being called "willfully obtuse", because that about sums up your post in a nutshell.
And that's very ironic because you aren't as intelligent as you think you are.
>You can judge the gameplay all you want, but treating the meta narrative and the gameplay as completely inseperatable is just ignorant, wilfully or otherwise.
You're an idiot. We're talking about a META NARRATIVE for a VIDEOGAME. Of course you have to judge them as one entity if you're going to call the videogame a work of post modern art. There is really no other way to judge it.
You're very very stupid and I feel sort of sorry for you.
>MGS2 gameplay is decent but not god-tier.
NO NO NO anon! According to the MGS2 fanboys you need to ignore the gameplay and judge it as a work of art based on codec calls and long winded cutscenes (in other words, as a movie, in which case it fails to be good)
>I understand your view that a game needs to have flawless gameplay for it to be considered art, but MGS2 came damned close
It's not that. It's that the meta aspect didn't really blow my mind. I understood why i was playing as raiden but it's not like, say..I was punished for killing people or something. Or that the game fucked with my head. The gameplay didn't really bring out the themes.
Like think of a game where you might be forced to kill innocent people to save your family...there is a game like that, I forget the name. THAT is subversive interactive gameplay that gels with its themes. That's postmodern video gaming. This is a stealth game that is very fun with a meta narrative.
aight Im out
I still don't understand how anyone could consider 2=1.
Maybe it's because I was such a huge fan of MGS1 and the tanker demo but I've not been as disappointed in a game as badly as I was with MGS2. I thought after the tanker demo we were getting the ultimate Solid Snake adventure with a great engine, instead we got a stripped down game world and a horribly tacked on plot and awful characterization and boss design.
So, I realized I played MGS wrong. Using the tranq gun whenever I could, always going non-lethal, etc. MGS4 was hell, since lots of shit comes at you without it being expected. I spent the whole Crying Wolf fight camping under a truck because I was scared shitless.
Also, I fucked up in PW - ended up being unable to complete a side op because none of my lethal weapons had enough ammo to finish the boss fight.
But now I restarted playing - firing weapons as little as possible, only using the default gun I have from cutscenes (which means killing if necessary, since it would be the SOCOM for Raiden in MGS2), and doing VR missions too instead of bothering to do the game on every difficulty like a retard.
Never had so much fun.
Playing MGS2 VR misions as of now.
The first Metal Gear Solid has too simplistic level design and enemy placement. Metal Gear 2 and Ghost Babel are both more compelling experiences, in my opinion.
I'll concede that MGS1 has better bosses, but MGS2 is better in everything else if you ask me. And there's nothing "tacked on" about MGS2's story. I can understand you disliking MGS2's story, but it's the least tacked on narrative in the entire series. Almost everything in that game was deliberate.
I didn't find MGS2 gameplay all too memorable. Sure there were some updated mechanics and AI and shit, but as I said, the tanker demo was twice as detailed and compelling as the fucking shell which was, let's be honest, a terribly uninteresting place to hang out in
Shadow Moses was my favorite game world of all time. It had so many interesting details and a very good design. It felt like a real place. The Shell was a huge letdown
and the bosses and characters in general were utterly terrible
I just don't think MGS1 is all that interesting to sneak through compared to other games in the series. I still love it; the mechanics really shine in the VR missions. But in the main game itself? Eh. MG2, Ghost Babel, and MGS2 do a far better job given their similar mechanics and structure.
I agree that Shadow Moses was a far more interesting setting than Big Shell. I also agree with you on MGS2 being aesthetically dull compared to MGS.
I still think MGS2 is a more fun and much more interesting game.
Yes. You have missions in the dark, first-person-view missions, missions with the blade as your only weapon, and six characters (Raiden,
Gray Fox Raiden, naked Raiden, Snake, Pliskin, Tuxedo Snake[/spoile] )
First you say the gameplay was tame and needed to be better, then you go on to say that the story didn't blow your mind, all I'm getting from this long-winded cinversation is that you didn't like the game, your standards are impossibly high and for that reason, no one should be able to enjoy MGS2 for what it is. It may not be up to your impossible standards, but it is still an outstanding achievement no matter what you think. Yes yes, I know, the guy left.
In the off-chance you happen to see this, because I know you will, you are impossibly retarded. You yourself don't even know what was bugging you about the game. Then, when people point this out, you try to scrounge up some vague argument to save face. Instead of saving face, you made the situation for yourself even worse. In an even more tasteless move, you then answer the arguments and then leave, making it impossible for people to offer a counterargument.
Go back to whatever shithole social-network you crawled out of and stay there.
MGS4 is complete shit.
Kojima a shit.
The fact that people actually think he is a good videogame director just shows how videogames still have a long fucking way to go. The quality just isn't there yet.