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What would a 4D video game play like? Is...
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What would a 4D video game play like? Is it possible to render a 4 dimensional space as a video game? How would it feel to play a first person shooter with an extra spatial dimension?
>>
Isn't time the forth dimension?
>>
>Travel back in time
>Frag another player before he frags your past self
>Fuck up the scoreboard with timefucks
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>>272991502
Time is generally referred to as a fourth dimension, but I'm referring to the concept of a fourth dimension in Euclidean space.
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>>272991502
time and space are the same stuff
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>>272991410
Yes, it's done all the time in many games, if not most. A lot of third person cameras use 4 dimensional rotations. Playing a game with 4 dimensional spacial movement would be like very similar to using a kaleidoscope drunk. Look up quaternions if you want to know more
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>>272991410
like this, op
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yW--eQaA2I

also go to hatechan.co instead of here.
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>>272991502
I'm not sure if you are trolling or not, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Time is only the 4th dimension when it is measured as spacetime, the theory that time and space are unified and directly linked to each other (this is meant to be taken strictly literally, they are as linked as left is to right). This does not mean time is always the 4th dimension, as a 4th dimension could be measured as any number of things. Think of it this way.

Dimension 1 - Up/down, Height, Y
Dimension 2 - (Strafe) Left/Right, Width, X
Dimension 3 - Forward/Backward, Length, Z

These are all spacial dimensions, the spacetime theory states that Dimension 4 can be treated as a spacial dimension as well, making a

Dimension 4 - Time

But you could also be measuring heat as a spacial dimension or light, or any other measurable thing that cannot be traced down to either height width or length.

In other words, a 4th dimension is just a 4th thing we are measuring.
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>>272991632
These are things only a drunk Irishman would think of
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>>272991410
4 dimensional game
Rendered in 3d
On a 2d screen

Op do you even logic.
>>
Braid
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>>272992228
Different guy but I appreciate the explication, I always thought time was the 4th dimension
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>>272991410
>Hypercube game
Allow me to help you OP, for I bring gifts from the land of fa/tg/uys

Here's the groundwork
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>>272991603
>>272992228
>Believing in spacetime

What is this, the Noughties?
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>>272998683
This is the general map
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>>272998737
Too confusing? I understand

Here's a more traditional square grid map

>Hypertesseract
>8 tesseracts
>72 rooms
>192 doors
Eat your fucking heart out
>>
4D Rubik's cube apps exist. That's about it for hyperdimensional gaming.
>>
>>272998467
because it is. If you think of it in terms of coordinates for points you have the first three dimensions to define where something is and time to define when it is there. good for hitting moving targets.
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>>272998859
I might be an idiot. I understand both graphs/maps whatever you want to call it. I could figure that out easy enough but that's the only way I can visualize it, if that makes sense. Like I can't picture an "object" or something that would follow the rules laid out. 2d representation with arrows and colors is no problem, is there another way to imagine this? Also how the fuck would you "see" higher order dimensions. Would I just compound them together? Does the general principal change? Fuck I used to be alright at math and now I feel like a retard
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>>272999286
You can't represent 4d space in reality, you will always be taking shortcuts.
>>
>>272999212
It was more the bottom part
>But you could also be measuring heat as a spacial dimension or light, or any other measurable thing that cannot be traced down to either height width or length.

In other words, a 4th dimension is just a 4th thing we are measuring.

I literally thought the 4th dimension was what was at that coordinate, if that makes sense. Like I get the xyz designates a location and 4th is essentially what was there at T. I can't explain it without using the word time and its making me feel stupid as fuck.
>>
In the film Interstellar, they talk about "5th dimensional beings".
What's the 5th dimension and how could humans get to it?
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>>272999558
>What's the 5th dimension

Sci-fi and math-fantasy

>and how could humans get to it?

Only through cinema magic
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>>272999558
I wouldn't know, I couldn't hear what anyone was saying during that movie.
>>
>>272999558
Interstellar describes time like a spatial dimension, with up, down, left, right, forward and back

Apparently in the future we humans transcend into 5 dimensions, with time now a new spatial plane to traverse and a new bullshit dimension that now acts as the limiting dimension time is
maybe

Its all cinema bullshit, but there it is
>>
Miegakure.
Look it up.
>>
>>272998683
The problem with this is that it isn't something that you could, generally, come to visualize. The human mind isn't equipped to understand the topology of that space.

The best thing you could do would be to use memory and landmark-based navigation, which is what you do for any game generally which includes non-Euclidean space... And at that point, developing non-Euclidean space can be done much more easily and entertainingly when you aren't trying to bind yourself to the shape of a tesseract.
>>
>>272999872
already posted itt
>>272991707
>>
>>272992228
He clearly means 4 space, as in a spacial dimension at right angles to (x,y,z). Stop being a pedant.
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>>272999549
I guess that always depends on what you want to use the time-coordinate for. If you were to make a 4-dimensional map and you could rewind it you would see that time is in fact a coordinate when you actually had the timer running with it. The problem is that the coordinate for time is universally absolute. Every second is a second ticking on top of an already established amount of seconds and there is no way to actually apply a value to that. You can only ever go with personally defined time. Even in this case time is relative.
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>>272999549
If it helps you understand, 3D could just as easily mean

(Horizontal Position, Vertical Position, Time)

It's just that we don't normally think of it that way since we're used to using 3 dimensions to measure space. But 3 dimensions literally just refers to a coordinate system which measures 3 separate numeric facts about a given point.

Time is traditionally thought of as a 4th dimension, in the same way length, width and height are thought of as the first 3 dimensions, but that's mostly just cultural convention.
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Of course, it was already done in 1991.
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>>272998859
Chesseract is a chess that I'd say shares some of the design in of this.

I can't really wrap my head around movement yet but it can be fun to play around with.

http://chesseract.com/

There's a manual somewhere if you google it. It helps a bit.
>>
>>272991410
You could render 4D objects in a game. They would all have two simultaneous shapes, and appear different depending on the angle you viewed it from (morphing betwen those two shapes in those angles).

However this would still be as much "4D" as the 2D shadow of a rotating 3D object would be.
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>>273000151
But it's more than just cultural convention.

You have a dot, that's 0 dimensions as it just is.

You have two dots, connect them and it's a spacial plane, but only one direction. 1 Dimension.

You have three dots. Connect them, it's a triangle. 3 vertexes so two dimensions, 2D.

Add a 4th dot at right angles, connect them all to each other, you have a simplex. 3D.

See where I'm going? Keep adding dot's at right angles. This is not cultural convention, it's our entire grounding for how geometric space classically works. It is, for all extent and purpose, correct for out 3 dimensional senses.

Just like base 10 is essentially our language for understanding maths, OP was using the idea of 4D to refer to something at right angles to (x,y,z). That's usually what people understand as 4D. It's not just cultural convention at all.
>>
>>273000349
>rotating shadow of a 3D object
Or really just a rotating 3D object, since we only render in 2D anyway.
>>
>>273000151
>>273000082
Thank you both, you've made it a bit clearer. I'm not going to pretend I completely comprehend it but I think I have enough to struggle out what I don't understand. I still hate that I can't define time with referencing time, I suppose it would be a first order unit right?
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>>273000580
Sure, but what would it mean to have a 4th dimension "at right angles" to the other three? That's just an abstract. It's impossible to comprehend with three-dimensional senses, it's just that we STATE "okay, this 4th dimension is also a right angles to the other 3".

So what? Even the demonstration of time-as-a-4th-dimension does not, as far as I know, establish that sort of right-angle connection in any meaningful sense. It just demonstrates that time and space are connected.
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>>273000603
yeah good point, our 2D screen showing a 3D object is already such a shadow.
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>>272999558
>de movie science
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>>273000725
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN4KC_zlW4g

Watch this. It's really clear and simple, though you'd have to start from scratch rather than come in with a preconception of what 4 space is. 4chan (with the exception of maybe /sci/) should never be relied on to learn anything, too many people speaking out of their arses.
>>
Miegakure is never gonna be released
>tfw visualizing four spatial dimensions is literally impossible
>>
>>273000725
>I suppose it would be a first order unit right?
As I said it always comes down to what you're using time as. I'm don't consider myself smart enough to claim my understanding of time is right or absolute, although it is supported by scientific facts in terms of actually being able to define any objects location at any point in time with it, but I just consider time as a measure like distance. Which is also why I personally don't consider time travel to be possible because you can't undo passed time the same way as you can not un-move a distance. If you take a step forward and you take a step back you're not at zero steps. You're at two.
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>>273000962
>all dat timetravel pseudo-science

Gotta love theoretical physics
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>>272991410
>What would a 4D video game play like?
Like retarded pretentious indie horseshit
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>>273000962
get out of here with that bullshit. that guy isn't a mathematician or a physicist or nothing, he pulled it all out of his ass
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>>273001074
>I'm don't consider myself smart enough
See? I can't even write properly.
>>
>>272998687
It's not a case of belief, it's part of general relativity, which is a successful theory. That notion might break down at some point - being replaced by a noncommutative space or whatever - but general relativity is set on a 4D Lorentzian manifold.
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>>273001110
Braid is in fact a 4-dimensional game.
>>
I prefer the Time Cube over Hypercubes.
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>>273001110
I dunno, I thought Antichamber was fun.

And I feel like a 4D game would basically just be like that, though maybe with a more consistent spatial logic (not that it would feel very different to anyone actually playing it since it would be a spatial logic we couldn't intuitively understand, consistent or otherwise).
>>
How the fuck do I wrap my head around quaternion rotations

I just can't do it for some reason
>>
>>272998683
That isn't correct. You wouldn't be moving through a tesseract because there are still only 3 degrees of freedom. That would actually be a game set in a 3 dimensional sphere (topologically, of course; geometrically it's the surface volume of a tesseract).
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>>273001238
>Time Cube
What the fuck is this shit?
This is manages to be even more crazy than the Communist Gangster Computer God.
>>
portal
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>>273000832
But it's not just a arbitrary. Just as a being in 2 Space could understand the idea of 3 Space by imagining many flat planes on top of each other, we can imagine 4 Space by imaging many of our 3 dimensional spaces stacked 'on top' of each other.

I understand that this is simply conjecture, but the idea that our senses are so perfect that we can perceive all of physical, spacial reality does not sit with me. The simple fact that we can comprehend that there might be things that are impossible for us to truly grasp suggests that there may be more than we, with our fallible sensory organs, can imagine.

In this respect, I can only assume that the observable reality (0 space, 1 space, 2 space and 3 space) continues in this trend and has other spacial dimensions at right angles to the third. This is a logical process. Why would physical law simply stop after 3? Would the idea that it continues indefinitely not make more sense, albeit a difficult concept by our 3 dimensional minds?
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>>272999963
>The human mind isn't equipped to understand the topology of the 3-sphere
Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homotopy_groups_of_spheres
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>>273001218
>it's part of general relativity, which is a successful theory

Except that, by definition, nothing can ever happen in spacetime, which is evidently not true.
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>>273000832
Low dimensional topologists end up being able to visualise 3/4 dimensional manifolds. It's easy to see how a Klein bottle doesn't embed into R^3, but easily embeds into R^4. If we now fill that in, we get a solid Klein bottle - a 3D space that cannot fit into our 3D world. Now take the product with a circle, and you have a closed 4-manifold (that doesn't embed into R^4 anymore)
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>>273001074
I meant first order like length is a first order unit. Displacment is just displacment, mass is just mass. its can't be defined any other way, like velocity is displacment/time or force is mass time acceleration or mass*(displacement/time/time)

In those you cannot define s, t, or m any other way.
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>>273001617
Sure it can. You can even talk about spacetime in Newtonian physics - it just has a different group of symmetries. For example, the notion of "now" does make sense in relativity, because it is different for different observers (say, moving at different velocities). This is not true in the Newton theory. Thinking about spacetime in the non-relativistic setting can make the use of path integrals in quantum mechanics simpler, for example.
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>>273001935
In Planck units, distance has units 1/mass (distances in both time and space). Velocity doesn't have units.
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>>272991410
We already have a, sort of, game that deals with the 4th dimension.
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>>273002174
Im sorry, what is a Planck unit? I could be very wrong here but I though s Planck was the theoretical smallest length possible to exist.
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>>273001238
>>273001403
>EARTH HAS 4 CORNER
>SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY
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>>272991410
well, if we're playing 3D games on a 2D screen, wouldn't it be like playing a 3D game then?
>>
Spacetime isn't physically existent, it's an abstract, non-existent, mathematical construct for the historical mapping of measured events.
>>
>>272998212
>>272998683
>>272998737
>>272998859
>>273000252
>babby's first multidimensional game
git gud
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>>273002658
What's the matter filthy ONEist scum?
2deep4u?
>>
>>273003223
This is making my head hurt.
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>>273002852

You create the illiusion of depth, which is why it looks like 3D when it's in reality a 2D screen.
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>>272998212

But that's not 4D. That's just 3D.
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>>273003384
>it's in reality a 2D screen

No, it's 3D but you're only viewing one face
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0 dimensional object is a single point
1 dimensional object is a line, which is a point extended to the direction of X
2 dimensional object is a square, which is a line extended to the direction of Y
3 dimensional object is a cube, which is a square extended to the direction of Z
4 dimensional object is a tesseract, which is a cube extended to the direction of W
5 dimensional object is a penteract, which is bla bla... etc.
>>
>>273003310
Just think about it. No man has no belly button.
>>
>>273002957
Isn't that shit just chesseract with a different layout?
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>>273003458

The projection itself (the lights in your screen) have no third dimension. With fancy programming you create the illusion of a third dimension while it's not there.
Your argument would also make drawing 3D because they're created in a 3D environment.

Not how it works.
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>>272992228
>Dimension 4 - Time

>But you could also be measuring heat as a spacial dimension or light, or any other measurable thing that cannot be traced down to either height width or length.

Just so anyone knows, this is completely and utterly retarded and just plain wrong.
>>
>>273002957
>I ALSO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THIS TOPIC
>HOW ELSE TO TELL PEOPLE BUT CALL EVERYTHING ELSE INFERIOR

You're every "that guy" I've met so far and I fucking hate you.
>>
>>273004032
I'm really glad someone else agrees. This thread is so full of bull it's insane. It's like I'm on /sci/
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>>272992228
>But you could also be measuring heat as a spacial dimension

>You could be also measuring movement in the 3 spacetime dimensions over time as a fourth dimension

Holy shit go back to school.
>>
>>273004032

That time is the fourth dimension?

I've never read a lot about this, but it was a theory right?
>>
>>272991592

> a fourth dimension in Euclidean space.
Pretty sure that makes no sense, anon
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>>272991410
Pretty much every 3D game you've ever played is '4D', in so far as it has a strict time-step applied to all it's 3D world inhabitants
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>>273004394
makes perfect sense if you did grade 10 maths
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>>272992228
please stop, you are confusing people with your inaccuracies.

>>272991410
Think of it this way if you want a 4rth dimension.
When you play a 3D game on your PC, what you really see is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional object on your screen. Your screen is 2D.
IF (and thats a huge fucking if) you were to somehow depict 4 dimensions in a way you can see and understand them, you would at best need a way to see a 3 dimensional representation of a 4D world. And i dont think VR would cut it. You would need some kind of hologram technology. And yet what you would see would only be 3 dimensions. Not 4.
Your shadow is a 2D version of you. A 3D shape would be the shadow of a 4D object.

The question is, why would you want to do that?
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>>273004562
>A 3D shape would be the shadow of a 4D object.
that would be cool, trying to wrap my head around what that would look like.
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>>273004309
There is no such thing as "the" fourth dimension.
We live in a universe made of 3 spatial dimension. Other dimensions are by definition not-spacial. They do not represent what we usually think of as "space". By the way, everything you can measure can be considered a dimension, just not a spatial one.

Time is the closest thing we got to a 4th spatial dimension though because it as a special relationship with space when things like black holes or speed of light are involved.
>>
>>273003439
The cubes are all in the same place but aren't existing in the same plane in the 4d image if I understand it right
>>
Nigga I am way too dumb to even begin to understand any of this shit

fuck college
>>
>>273004562
The "shadow of a 4D object is three-dimensional" thing has always interested me.

I wonder if anyone will ever make use of the Oculus to make some wack-ass gameplay with it, considering we finally have the technology to display 3D items in... 3D.
>>
>>273004719
> special relationship with space when things like black holes or speed of light are involved.
There is no difference between space and time.
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>>273004493
You sure about that?
>>
Technically we already have 4D games, they're just rendered in 3D, it's all handled by matrices, if you have enough matrices you can pretty much do anything.
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>>273004562
We perceive the world as objects moving forward at a set pace through time.

Everything your eyes perceive around you is a shadow of a 4D object
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>>273004859
I would argue that I can walk move in any direction but that I can only travel forward at a fixed speed in time. That makes them different enough.
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>>273004975
>mfw I'm just a shadow of my true self
>>
Would a purely 2D universe be an infinitely flat plane?
>>
I like how the tesseract looks in interstellar.

Recommended movie for anyone in this thread
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>>273004969
Rendered in 3d and displayed to players using a 2D object.
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>>273005123
>I can only travel forward at a fixed speed in time.
Not at all.
The faster you go the more mass you have, the more mass you have the slower time goes.
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>>273004682
It would look like a normal object. Like a cube for example :)

Look at your shadow on the wall. If you move or turn around or something, the shadow changes. The source 3D object (you) stays the same! I assume the same would happen with a 4D to 3D transition. What you would see is a 3D shape changing while the 4D object was "moving".

Also, the Oculus is still 2 2D images pretending to be 1 3D image. I think that if you fall down 2 dimensions (from 4D to 3D to 2D) the information lost on the way is too severe to somehow still represent the initial object. It would be like looking at a black line and figuring out who's shadow that is.
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>>273005204
>interstellar.
>Good

Pick zero.
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>>273005262
Right, but that doesn't make going back in time more possible.
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>>273005201
Yes.
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>>273004975
That would be correct IF time was actually the wall my 3D shadow falls on. Not the 4rth dimension itself.
And since we have observed particles moving back in time, (we observe while moving forward in time) I doubt it is correct.
But I do not know that much so i could be wrong.
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>>272999998
>>272991707
That doesn't make jack shit of sense
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>>273005337
Oh, btw, you now realize your eyes only see 2D and you cannot even truly perceive the 3rd dimension.
Have fun, I am out.
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>>273005353
>Pick zero.

Interstellar is in fact a movie, and good is a concept.
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>>273005640
maybe if you skipped school
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>>273005508
I had a theory the other day that evidenced the existence of infinite parallel universes, and it all hinged on a truly 2D universe being infinitely flat.
I wish for the life of me I could remember it.
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>>272991707

Why would moving through the fourth dimension create landscape unrelated to the third dimension?
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>>273005891
Since when they did they even mention dimensions in schools?
Okay my main question here is, in 2-D there is something in front, behind, above, and below you. In 3-D there is that along with left right, and everything between. In 4-D where the fuck else can we go? 3-D already covered all around you
>>
I understand the concepts of the 1st and 4th spacial dimensions, but I just can't visualize them. Am I dumb or something?
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>>273006371

If you could visualize 4th dimension, I'd say you are going insane.
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>>273006448
The day you accurately visualize the 4th dimension is the day you achieve CHIM.
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>>273003930
>Your argument would also make drawing 3D because they're created in a 3D environment.

Yes, drawing is 3D. The pencil marks have depth.
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>>273006310
I was wondering the same thing. I mean, the game is never really 4d. You don't have those dimensions of movement available. The game claims to show you 3d-representations of the same world with differences in which dimensions are being displayed, and which dimensions the player can move in, but the difference between the landscape viewed in xyz and the landscape viewed in xyw make no sense.
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>>273004719

But time is only an illusion. It is a term we use to refer to the interval between events, the entire concept is just a manmade fallacy. When we "measure time", we are actually just measuring the perceived movement of physical objects, vibrations of particles, halving of atoms, you name it. There is no force that you can identify or measure and say, "this is time". Einstein's theory says that time passes slower for objects moving faster. Are you sure it's not just the atoms of your clock being affected by the momentum? It's all a lie!
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>>273006448
But what about the 1st dimension then.
This dimension nonsense is really starting to seem like nonsense
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pmSPlYHxoY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl40xidKF-4
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>>273007012
What would a purely 2D object look like side-on?
That is the first dimension.
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>>273007317
>What would a purely 2D object look like side-on

It wouldn't look like anything
>>
If it can't be experienced it doesn't exist, ergo hyperdimensions are BS
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>>273007359
To us maybe, but it would still be there.
If you could somehow see it, it would appear as an infinitely flat line.
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>>273007492

hi analmech
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>>273007568
This is sounding like religion level bullshit.
"There's no way to see it but it's totally there guise!"
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>>273007492

It can't be experienced by our limited sensory capabilities. We couldn't see atoms until we invented a means to. That doesn't mean they didn't exist up until that point.
>>
>>273007775
Until then it's just conjecture.
For molecules and atoms there was always evidence of their existence, but we couldn't see them.
What evidence is there of other dimensions in the first place?
How do we know there isn't just flat and round?
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>>273007775
Atoms were only out of sensory reach by degree. Extra dimensions, if they did exist, could not be experienced by their nature.
>>
>>273007669
It could be argued that the study of dimensions has more to do with philosophy than mathematics, which might make it sound quasi-religious.
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You niggers do realize the 4th dimension is time and there's n way of opening/ representing another spatial dimension, right?
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>>273008106
Studying themnis mathematics, understanding them isn't
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>>273008106
Eh, they're inseparable here.

What you mean is that extra dimensions are purely abstract with no evidence of their existence. They may be proven logically to be possible, which is where mathematics and philosophy come into it.
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>>273007309
Sooo, is that an engine that's made for non euclidean geometry that's not faking it like portal or antichamber with teleporting around.
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>>273004151
It was a hyperbolic joke anon
>>
>>273008206
People are talking about 4 dimensional Euclidean space, spacetime is usually depicted as a Minkowski space.
>>
>>273006664

That's just being a know it all anon.
It's universally agreed on that a paper drawing is 2D since the depth is negliable.

Your arguments are like a teen that hits puberty. Technically you're not wrong, but it's still stupid.
>>
>>273009978
>Stop being right, it's making me uncomfortable

Maybe I sound like a teen, but you sound like a bitch.
>>
>>273008206
You can create projections of 4d into 3d or 2d space, just as we can draw cubes on 2d paper.
http://www.urticator.net/maze/
This game does it well.
>>
inb4 mysticizing the 4th and higher dimensions
>>
>>273005935
Our 3d universe is just as flat in non-x,y,z dimensions as 2d universe is.
>>
>>273011243
It's already mythical as it is
>>
>>273011243
You try explaining x,y,z,w movement without it sounding like some seriously weird fucking shit.
>>
>>273012283
Try explaining x,y,z,w movement without making it sound like bullshit.
>>
>>273012283
seriously weird fucking shit is one thing, ayyliens reptilians and konata being real is another
>>
>>272998683
Procedurally, that wouldn't be difficult to program, even if the GUI is just a room with doors, as long as the correct rules for which door leads where are in place, you could conceivably build this "dungeon" in a game, the only problem would be that the players would have a hard time visualizing where they are in the superstructure and only a computer would know for sure.
>>
lol fukin nerds
>>
>>273012752
If you gave the players a map I don't think there would be an unnecessary amount of confusion since the actual amount of rooms isn't too bad.
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