Are there honestly people who don't think Wind Waker is not only the greatest Zelda of all time but one of the greatest games ever made? The huge vast world full of things to do and discover alone sets it far above any and every Zelda game made before or since, and at the time the only other video game that could MAYBE compare was Morrowind, which was still lacking in comparison. The dungeons were fun and challenging, the combat was perfect, despite the colorful art style the story was actually very mature and melancholy with actual depth and themes, something the series never attempted before or again, the music was legitimately moving and very beautiful. Why isn't Wind Waker in your top ten /v/?
>God awful art style
>Boring and empty overworld like most other Zelda games, but made worse due to it being water and slow to traverse
>Lack of dungeons
>Music is mostly forgettable
I won't say it's the worst Zelda game ever
only because the NDS games and SS exist
>huge vast world full of things to do and discover
You mean the grid in which you know before even "exploring" there is exactly one island per square? Most of said islands being uninteresting or having little to do?
>The dungeons were fun and challenging
>The huge vast world full of things to do and discover alone
Gee, isn't watching Link sail for 10 minutes just for him to make it to a tiny island with nothing but a few mobs and some rupees the best thing ever?
>the combat was perfect
Oh yeah, standing in place and waiting for the game to tell you to press A was great! Otherwise I'm just blindly chopping at enemies until they die.
It remains the only Zelda game with a truly open world to explore.
None of the other games even come close in terms of exploration and the thrill of discovery.
The HD remake is quite possibly the most perfect Zelda game ever made.
If you take every island in WW and consolidate it into one mass of land it still wouldn't be as big as Twilight Princess, which arguably doesn't have any more or less to discover.
Riding the horse is more engaging and less time-consuming than sailing.
The map isn't laid out in a grid where you can easily correctly guess exactly where all the explorable areas are.
WW actually has some of the worst exploration in the series if you look at it this way.
tldr: just because it's on an ocean doesn't mean you're actually exploring anything
>just because it's on an ocean doesn't mean you're actually exploring anything
>not using treasure charts
>not fighting off pirates
>not hunting for pieces of the triforce
>not cruising around to listen to the music
>not racing through obstacles to get rupees
You're doing it wrong, friend.
I know this thread is intended to be bait, but it's bait that needs to be posted
Wind Waker really gave its all to save the franchise by realizing no Zelda game was ever going to really top OoT's dungeon design and inventory, but fans insisted on pushing the franchise right into stagnation and mediocrity.
Truly a game too good for its intended audience
I just don't think the game should be given points if I have to use my imagination to make up for its shortcomings.
I can just sit on my couch and pretend I'm sailing on that like I used to when I was a youngin'.
I always here you WW enthusiasts talking about how much of an adventure you felt like you were having, but the only reason you feel that way is because the game makes you sail to everything.
There's little mystery about what's out in the ocean... it's not like you don't already know there is one island per square.
Most of those islands have fuck-all to do on them.
I can suspend my disbelief, but not as much as you apparently, to buy into that cheap illusion.
It's just a shitty attempt at simulating an ocean adventure, anon. Sorry if you got so tickled by the thought of living out your fantasy to sail the open seas that you can't see that.
What people like you think WW is and what it actually is is like the difference between what Watch Dogs promised and what it delivered.
Alright, that's enough grandpa. I didn't realize you were so dead inside. Go back to your spreadsheet simulator then and leave us to play our actually fun games in peace.
>Why can't you see my experience with the game is more correct than you experience with the game
When your whole argument hinges on arguing that someone only thinks they enjoyed a video game it makes it near impossible to take you seriously
>they saved the series by downgrading it, because the constant technological, visual, atmospheric, and lore upgrades the series was previously receiving with each incarnation would have caused it to be mediocre
It'd be better if every fucking treasure map didn't lead to either rupees, or heat pieces. Hardly feels like I'm finding something worthwhile.
The HD remake introducing the fast sail is so fucking nice. It makes the game significantly better.
Forget WW, I don't get the hate on SS. Seriously, it's my second favorite zelda, right behind
MM. Absolutely HATED spirit tracks though, so my opinion seems to be that of the minority.
MM>SS>WW>LttP=LBW=OoT>OracleSeason>oracleAges>MC>Zelda2>PH>LA>Zelda>shit >The CDI ones> Four Swords Adventures single player> spirit tracks
>What people like you think WW is and what it actually is is like the difference between what Watch Dogs promised and what it delivered.
It boils down to "you only think you enjoyed the game"
They tried to save the series by realizing the old formula had peaked and trying to take the series in a new direction. Note the decline in quality in Zelda due to its failure to understand this and Mario's rise in quality due to understanding this very well.
For all the problems I had with Mario Sunshine I'll still go back to play it from time to time because it has things other mario games don't offer. I'll never go back to TP because it's almost an across the board downgrade from OoT. The only thing that really stands out to me is the atmosphere of the overworld
WWWWWWW fags are without a doubt the most easily offended and defensive faction in the overall Zelda fanbase. If you deny for a second that WW is anything less than god's gift to video games it causes buttfrustration on a catastrophic scale.
I only say it because somebody has to. There are games I like more than WW but those games actually get the praise they deserve so I don't really need to bother defending them
Up until the 3D games had been disjointed and segmented in their world design. WW was the first attempt to have a Zelda 1 style open world 3D.
The change in artstyle also changed the way the game presented itself and it offered a feeling quite distinct from your average medieval adventure.
WWfags think that taking a shortened Zelda game, chopping it up into 10 small islands and 40 tiny islands, putting an ocean in between everything, and tacking on a huge fetch-quest at the end = epic adventure
I like wind waker, but the shekel grinding at the end slows the momentum of the experience. I wish the first half of windwaker could be duct taped onto the second half of TP
>the story was actually very mature and melancholy with actual depth and themes
WW's story in the equivalent of a Mario game where Mario decides to just stop saving Peach because he'll just get a new princess.
But you need to present it as some sort of grand delusion that people need to trick themselves into enjoying things you don't. Enjoyment of video games isn't really objective hence why video game reviews are such a joke
Care to explain that one?
>it offered a feeling quite distinct from your average medieval adventure.
Zelda is anything but "your average medieval adventure" and always has been. Zelda games prior to WW had a huge number of themed areas ranging from arabic tailored deserts to post-apocalyptic graveyards to pirate and sea serpent inhabited bays
All I'm saying is that when people say WW offers some kind of grand exploration and that's why they like it so much, it's bullshit because the ocean doesn't offer any more exploration than any other Zelda game. That's objective.
If they think they're exploring more than they do in other Zelda games, then yes they're deluding themselves into thinking that.
WW managed to stand out even more than them by riding its sense of humor as much as any Zelda game since Link's Awakening and actually showing some real advancement in culture and technology such as steamboats
I found that to be a very enjoyable a somber moral about letting go of the past to look to a better future
are there any other games in which i can sail the open seas in search of adventure and booty? almost all of my WW playtime i was pretending to be a scallywag pirate.
and yes i played black flag but i need MOAR
>How can anyone dislike this lazy uninspired garbage that looks like it was doodled by a grade schooler?
>WW greatest Zelda
WW is good but too convoluted for its own good, there are too many superfluous bits and pieces that don't mean anything and don't have anything significant to make up for it. LttP was a very coherent and well put together game world where a majority of the game keeps you engaged at all times and gives reasons beyond finding a chest to explore the game world. There is not a single part of LttP that is left unseen because it is deliberately designed for you to see all of it, whereas WW you can play the whole game and miss half of it, even though a majority of the stuff you would miss is inventory padding and item hunting.
3D zeldas really still haven't hit the sweet spots that games like LttP and Links Awakening have hit in having a well put together game world. They make the worlds too vast for no reason, not enough of the game world is unique and defined. Although the ones that fit their theme and attempts best were WW and MM, maybe TP. But they still aren't as well crafted as LttP and Awakening, but then again it's much easier to do in a 2D environment.
>If they think they're exploring more than they do in other Zelda games, then yes they're deluding themselves into thinking that.
People enjoy the option to travel in just about any direction they can see on the map. If there was an objection off in the distance you could do straight to it and that was huge when compared to OoT and MM segmenting their worlds with loading screens and areas you can't reach until you have a specific item. Granted the KoRL does cockblock you a bit in the start, but he drops it very quickly after the second dungeon and especially so when compared to the Zeldas that came after it.
And atmosphere does count for something. It's a big part of what separates any video game from being a mere series of button presses
atmosphere counts, but it is superficial. And that goes for the option to travel in any direction as well.
The ability to sail in Wind Waker is undermined by the fact that there's not much to sail to. The ability to explore is undermined by the fact that you know once you found the island in the square there's nothing left to find.
Then there's the repetitive grabbing chests that have nothing in them but rupees or maps for more chests or the occasional heart piece.
All of this makes the actual sailing bit come off as a waste of time and boring for anyone who doesn't forgive the problems I listed above.
it doesn't capture me
when I play it I feel like I'm playing a video game
when I'm playing Dragon's Dogma I feel like I'm the hero on a quest with his companions doing epic shit
The last Zelda I enjoyed was Ocarina of Time.
>WW has stragglers living on islands
The world was much more fleshed out if you read the descriptions offered on the figurines in the Nintendo Gallery. The game offers a decent number of character based sidequests. Perhaps not as much as Majora's Mask, but it's enjoyable to not have that development erased when the clock resets
>I and II did post destruction Hyrule better
Now that's nostalgia talking. The original Zeldas did not receive the praise they did for their stories. It wasn't until LttP that people really tried to take the lore seriously by actually explaining shit like the origins of Ganon and introducing the Master Sword
As someone who played all the 3D games upon release except for WW, which I just played the HD version of last year, honestly I really didn't get the hype.
I played it, and thoroughly enjoyed it, but its still nowhere near OoT or MM for me. Although I did enjoy it more than TP and SS, it wasn't THAT much better than TP.
I liked the art style, I thought sailing was neat, dungeons were alright, not that great. Music had several standout tracks but few truly original tracks were in it, to which I was kinda bummed out about.
I played on hero mode and it was still painfully easy, and the dungeons themselves are probably some of the easiest in the series.
Like, yeah it's good, but pretty much solely middle of the pack when it comes to the Zelda franchise for me. I just can't understand why people hold it as their favorite, besides the fact that they just prefer the aesthetic, in which case, you shouldn't hold it as objectively the best like the OP is doing.
MM is my personal favorite, and favorite game of all time. But thats because amongst other things, I love its aesthetic more than any other Zelda. Doesn't mean its the best though.
>The ability to explore is undermined by the fact that you know once you found the island in the square there's nothing left to find.
There was still shit like the submarines and big octos that could be found out at see. It's a bit dumb to hold it against a game for having a finite amount of content like just about every game ever made
>All of this makes the actual sailing bit come off as a waste of time and boring for anyone who doesn't forgive the problems I listed above.
And that's purely subjective and varies for person. Some people enjoy the story in Skyward Sword whereas it ruined the game for me. That doesn't make one opinion more objective than another
Also I want to add that the entire time I played WW I kept feeling like it lacked something. I don't know how much content they had to cut, but I definitely got the sense that there was supposed to be more, which definitely sucks, but still hurt the overall game.
Another 3 years and SS will finally be appreciated as the masterpiece it is.
Also WW is the worst 3D Zelda by far. Worst dungeons, worst overworld, worst transportation. The only Zelda game I don't want to replay after I finished it.
It's not that it has a finite amount of content, it's that it's got barely enough content to justify being on an ocean to begin with. The one-island-per-square system makes it so you explore even less.
I actually think the one-island-per-square system is good in this context, because I would be pissed off if I was sailing around, happy like a little explorer, only to stumble upon boring, uneventful island after boring, uneventful island with the occasional good one mixed in.
It's subjective whether or not people enjoy the traveling, but not whether the method of travel in itself offers more exploration than other Zelda games. The method of travel and the ocean that you travel on offers at best a greater illusion of exploration, but the ocean doesn't have any more surprises on it than Twilight Princess has in its big empty field.
What you're left with is a method of travel (sailing) and the atmosphere of that sailing on the ocean. It's obvious that's what a lot of people like about the game, but they shouldn't go around saying Wind Waker has more exploration just because the shit is scattered around a big empty ocean; which, as I already said, is a fun experience for people who like to pretend they're sailors, but a shitty experience for people who are actually trying to explore.
By the way, it's a known fact that the game had content cut and was rushed out of the door, which is why the ocean feels even more empty and pointless than you guys claim it doesn't.
I'm sure people love the Triforce hunt too. It doesn't mean it's not just filler that takes away more from the game than it adds.
MMfags may be insufferable (i would know being one of them) but at LEAST they aren't delusional.
MM's dungeons are too long and not that many
>yeah but the journey is worth it but i could your opinion on that
WW's dungeons are too easy and not memorable
>HOW DARE YOU INSULT WIND WAKER
>As someone who played all the 3D games upon release except for WW, which I just played the HD version of last year, honestly I really didn't get the hype.
And you played the BEST version in terms of gameplay. Shame you got also lots of bloom instead of cel-shading.
Most people are so fond of WW because the artstyle, music and story (that sad Ganondorf speech for example) but the game itself has never been that great. Many people defend spending hours in the boring-ass ocean as "muh exploration and immersion" but you cannot explore shit up until the end of the game. And you didn't get the triforce quest, which makes the game even worse.
I think it's an ok game, but to compare it with other 3D Zeldas and call it better than Skyward Sword, let alone Ocarina of Time, is just plain stupid and shows the power of nostalgia googles. If the game was released today as a brand new, it would be called the worst Zelda ever.
OoT and WW are the only Zeldas I find to be worth consistent replays. I've been meaning to go back to LttP though and replay ST from tme to time for trains
>I actually think the one-island-per-square system is good in this context, because I would be pissed off if I was sailing around, happy like a little explorer, only to stumble upon boring, uneventful island after boring, uneventful island with the occasional good one mixed in.
Some islands were certainly better than others, but I can't think of more than one or two I flat out hated. Especially compared to the variety you get in most Zelda worlds
>the ocean doesn't have any more surprises on it than Twilight Princess has in its big empty field.
The first encounter with a big octo is more of an "oh shit" moment than anything I got out of TP
> they shouldn't go around saying Wind Waker has more exploration just because the shit is scattered around a big empty ocean
Well I don't know what else I'm supposed to say about the fact that I found more to do in Wind Waker's overworld than the other games
>I'm sure people love the Triforce hunt too. It doesn't mean it's not just filler that takes away more from the game than it adds.
Certainly doesn't mean it ruins the game either.
>and replay ST from tme to time for trains
Nope! Opinion discarded and dropped harder than an anvil on a cartoon coyote. ST trains are the worst system of transportation any Zelda game has. I couldn't finish the game because I hated it so much.
Yeah I understand, there just felt like there was no transition to the "endgame" thing, if you understand what I mean. I wish they would have taken some of the excess length of SS or TP and put it to use here in the better game though
>Considering I couldn't even force myself to finish Skyward Sword it's safe to say that I can
I don't see why considering it's great.
Unless your fat arm got tired after 5 minutes, but that's a discussion for another day.
>opinion discarded because I like trains
And this goes back to my issue that a game's problems are much easier to ignore when it offers you something you enjoy that you can't get from the other titles
The controls were the least of its problems. I was stuck with the Wii version of TP and managed to finish it twice despite it not really being my favorite Zelda
yeah I feel the same way. WW isn't terrible was was the point of my original post, but SS was actually boring and I couldn't keep playing it
Not that guy, but after it told me to go back to the forest for a third time and fight the same boss a third time I just got bored and quit. Nothing was exemplary in that game.
OoT and MM have cultures with intertwined histories, WW islands have isolated people living on islands and some of them happen to have beaks
>The original Zeldas did not receive the praise they did for their stories.
Nor should Wind Waker, considering it was a poor retelling of the first two games
I do agree figthing Eggtoes African Pacman over and over was the worst part of the game, but backtracking was certainly not, considering everytime you had to go back out of obligation, there was something new waiting, like the Silent Realms, new areas ahead or new elements that changed the scenarios like the flooded forest. Just because it was the same 3 areas it doesn't mean they didn't play different when you came back. I think that's really smart.
SS is nowhere near worthy of being called a masterpiece
The Cistern level was the only remotely original thing about the game, and it's not gonna be remembered for just that level.
>Isolated islands can't have culture
Do you even know what culture is?
>Nor should Wind Waker considering it was a poor retelling of the first two games
Now this is getting desperate
The thing about the Wind Waker is that there's about a dozen optional islands with any kind of real content, and most of the assets are recycled between them. Half of those are nearly identical gauntlet arenas with three shared layouts. Between eye-reefs, star archipelagos, and plot critical islands, you end up with an overworld that's pretty lacking in optional content. It's got about as much to do as any other 3D Zelda game, but the size of the world and the speed of travel make it slower to gt to anything.
This wouldn't be so bad if the Wind Waker's reward system wasn't a tedious disappointment at every turn. Treasure Charts are the worst reward that have ever been in any Zelda game ever. There's 49 of the fucking things and half of them are nearly useless 100 to 200 rupee chests. Solving a puzzle only to get a treasure chart means I don't get a real reward until I sail to someplace halfway across the overworld in my slow boat, dredge up treasure with my slow and inaccurate crane, and then I get like 200 rupees for my troubles that overflow from my already full wallet. Everything about treasure charts are a pain in the ass including the stupid way you have to cycle through all of them linearly to open new ones, because the game didn't have the courtesy to tell you what the number of the treasure chart was when you get it.
>Buddah dungeon and boss.
>Timeshift stones (and their 2 dungeons)
>Pretty solid dungeons with interesting enemies like the lava hand and such
>Peppermint Kisses boss battles
>Motherfucking motion controls (inb4 "dey not gud", yes they are, it's all about timing and swinging correctly)
Man I was about to respond but you keep saying exactly what I am thinking.
Also seriously covering an area in water doesn't make me somehow have a whole new experience. Only the Desert changed significantly between visits
The last dungeon/boss was complete shit though, and left such a bad taste in my mouth. If it had been OoT level good, I might have had good memories of it overall, but they failed hard.
>Do you even know what culture is?
Better than you, if you think half a dozen people with no defining traits other than their physical appearances living isolated on an island is representative of one
In OoT you also had to backtrack to get into dungeons you couldn't access to, like going back to the Goron mountains or the Kokiri forest to go through new areas. Hell, OoT reclycled his entire world and added new things to give the illusion of time passing. How is this different?
Finally, someone gets it. Good on ya, OP. Fuck the people who hate it, it's just such a fascinating and powerful game. Who cares if it's cel-shaded, it's got an atmosphere that nothing else holds a candle to.
>TFW exploring abandoned ships, subs and strange islands with no idea what you'll find
>It's got about as much to do as any other 3D Zelda game, but the size of the world and the speed of travel make it slower to gt to anything.
It's got warps just like the rest of them. Ignoring the time it takes to change the Wind's requiem (especially now that WWHD exists) The boat isn't any slower than Link's traditional walking speed. The world is just larger
>This wouldn't be so bad if the Wind Waker's reward system wasn't a tedious disappointment at every turn. Treasure Charts are the worst reward that have ever been in any Zelda game ever. There's 49 of the fucking things and half of them are nearly useless 100 to 200 rupee chests
That's a pretty good reward considerinf rupees are more important than ever in WW's second half and there was plenty of optional shit to spend it on. The worst reward is the infinite rupees from the Skulltulla house because you'll never use them for anything
First of all you didn't spend nearly as much time in them as you did in the areas of SS. Second of all the backtracking serves to give the player a firsthand look at all the damage Ganon's reign has done to the once peaceful areas of Hyrule. In SS it doesn't serve any kind of purpose like that
>Also seriously covering an area in water doesn't make me somehow have a whole new experience.
Yes it does, because going through the forest is completely when you swim because you are usually looking for a place in the forest while now you have the freedom of going through it from every angle. Making the flooded forest into a separate lake wouldn't have changed a thing for the purpose of that part.
>Better than you, if you think half a dozen people with no defining traits other than their physical appearances living isolated on an island is representative of one
Once again, nearly every character gets some kind of fleshing out through the Nintendo gallery and plenty of them receive sidequests.
Though I enjoyed wind waker a lot I really felt it needed to flush out the world more. Sailing the sea was interested to me but most spots on the grid are kind of pointless to visit. Basically the world needed more interesting elements added to it and islands that where just out there needed something more on them. Not my top 1 zelda game.... Also, I heard the wii U version actually added content to the game.... is that true?
I agree with everything but two things.
>Dungeons were challenging
>Combat was perfect
In spite of these fuckhuge glaring flaws, it's a great game which I fucking love. It's counted in my top five no question.
At first I thought Ocarina of Time was the greatest.
Then I truly thought Wind Waker was after I completed the lobster shirt quest a second time (marking the fourth time total).
But I recently played A Link to the Past for the first time. I liked it a lot. About as much as I enjoyed Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword. They're all great.
I think it's a tie between Ocarina and Wind Waker. From the perspective of the lore and overall series, OoT is the one at the center of it all. I'm a sucker for time travel.
I mean if you liked it good for you, I'm just saying, making me go back to the forest, except, oh this time its underwater, was lame. It didn't look any different besides being covered in water. It didn't FEEL like a new area at all, or even that much changed. Also the swimming controls in the game were fucking awful. And using those terrible swimming controls in the collectathon musical note thing was an even worse idea from a gameplay standpoint. Look if the backtracking was different parts of the overall area like the sandsea, then I would have been okay with it. As it stands you spend way too much time over the course of the game in the same 3 areas. If every segment of the game besides dungeons was shortened by a few hours, the game would have lost nothing of value.
Yeah, gameplay is pretty much unchanged. Although I seem to remember there were a fair amount of larger enemies that could do the ol' reach around because they were so big.
It's a cool addition, especially considering all the other little changes that make the game overall better