>>260701638 This. In the Chaos routes, you usually side with lucifer. He'll sweetalk you into it with how his side represents freedom and shit. FYI, Law and Chaos don't inherently mean good and bad in these games.
>>260702832 Which ones do you kill him in? He usually comes off as a pretty passive dude in the games. You fight him in Nocturne, but that's to test your power. In SMT2, if you don't side with him, he basically just goes, "What a shame" and allows you to go along your way without throwing any kind of a bitchfit. And this isn't about which route is best, the SMT games don't outright tell you which is good and bad, it leaves you to figure that out for yourself, so you could end up seeing either routes in a positive light.
There's no such thing as Satanism, outside of some rebellious nonsense like LaVey Satanism, which is just as made up as Mormonism.
The closest thing you'll find is RPGs that have plenty of demonic beings in their lore, and portray them as more neutral. Maybe the daedra from the Elder Scrolls series would count. Some of them could actually be mistaken for good deities, like Meridia, who is something like the Daedric Prince of Light. Meridia is just as selfish as the rest of the daedra, but (she? - the daedra are gender neutral) hates undead creatures and even sends you on a quest to purify the world of them.
>>260704965 >comparing LaVeyan Satanism to Mormonism The former admits to being a libertine philosophy with a penchant for edginess and ritual. The latter is bona fide morons believing some guy found G-D's secret post-script buried in Ameristan.
>>260705667 I'll use Dungeons and Dragons alignments. >Lawful Evil, character that uses law and power for opression and his gain (Darth Vader for example) >Chaotic Good, character that will help people, not caring about the law (a good example would be Robin Hood)
>>260706401 Neutral endings in SMT are generally terrible
I don't understand how people can genuinely believe that Law is "bad" when it's literally the best thing for everyone in every single game to date. I'm guessing it has something to do with the average /v/ poster being a product of the 90's nowadays.
>>260705745 >They're not, though, because only one of these "faiths" has faithful adherents.
I suppose you're right. I just couldn't think of a better comparison right off hand. The only reason I commented on it is because you hear so much about "devil worshipers" when you live in the South. The whole notion is silly. I've never seen anything to suggest Satanism could be a legitimate, organized belief system with real practitioners.
>>260708898 To explain, most SMT games are usually open to interpretation on whether an alignment may actually be good or not. SJ seemed more aggressive on that, Law is all about brainwashing to where an individual no longer retains his individuality so that everyone may live in peace. Chaos is no rules, the strong survive and the weak serve or die. In neutral, nothing happens. You just watch the aftermath of everything.
I don't get why everyone sees the status quo is something bad. All of us have a good life, right? we can play videogames, love someone, shitpost on 4chan, walk to the park, eat delicious food. Why would you want a world of pure anarchy or eternal servitude?
>>260709518 What do you think about alpha centauri's transcendence ending? I thought it was cool cause muh science but I can see it being similar to this.
Anyway I think the idea of a utopia is retarded too, as you have to live to serve what that ideal state is. Even if you like that and think I am being edgy, your opinion won't feed back into the system.
>>260709997 >most SMT games are usually open to interpretation on whether an alignment may actually be good or not
It's literally never "open to interpretation". Law is the good alignment, Chaos is the evil alignment, and Neutral either makes everything worse or returns to the status quo without solving anything the way Law would have.
>>260710156 It actually kind of is, the people arguing it is are the people deciding that they are the special snowflake they are because of muh genetics and chemicals and basically write off their decisions after they are born because they are born that way, yet want to be ignorant of hierarchy, and preach equality.
>>260708896 in fairness, most totalitarian regimes are actually pretty chaotic. a highly orderly society, while not necessarily a good thing, would not have constant random purges like stalin's russia.
a better example would be somewhere like singapore, where the law is strict and harshly enforced, but you do have to actually break the law before you're punished (as opposed to communist russia, where the law was enforced or ignored arbitrarily at the whims of various political figures).
>>260710862 >thought to >likely Pretty tenuous. Nonetheless, the two entities in the passages they apply to perform different functions altogether, so if you're making a game with metaphysical concepts represented as real, actual entities, that would be consistent.
>>260710983 Sorry I was being devils avacado, saying that the people saying that are "the people deciding that they are the special snowflake they are because of muh genetics and chemicals and basically write off their decisions"
I am saying times have changed and fedoracore used to be determinism, but now I really think its getting switched around in what people want to pick on you and say you are a nerd for thinking.
Seriously I go to college and it is a fuckfest, so many people end up talking determinism, it is the mainstream philosophy. Just so happens you are in school learning about chemistry etc. and it just so happens you are at the age you are afraid of responsibility that you would be determinist.
>>260711496 in the old testament, yes. but in revelations it says that he's evil.
>7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
"lucifer" in the bible is just some king, it's a metaphor or some shit.
Anyway, the hierarchy and organization isn't free will I think we get that, there are extenuating things compelling you to fall into place in a structure where Chaos would have you act under your own Quale. The level of strict order in your free will isn't the same as predestined laws, so there is relative disorder but that doesn't mean necessary evil.
>>260711264 The thing is though that death and destruction will always be a side effect of that level of disorder, there's no way around it, if you have complete chaos and disorder it will INVARIABLY devolve into those things, it's just a matter of how long it takes
>satanists essentially believe in the same things Christians do, but choose to worship Satan instead of God >God is omnipotent, the creator of everything and will reward your faith with eternity in paradise >Satan is some dick muncher known for deception >they still choose to worship Satan Satanists are legitimately retarded.
>>260712483 >On the day the Lord gives you relief from your suffering and turmoil and from the harsh labour forced on you, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended!...How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?
he's just some random babylonian king, he's compared to the morning star (also known as lucifer) as a metaphor to describe his rise and fall.
>>260713425 It's literally that because Lucifer was the king of the city of light, now a demon or Satan. He was not depicted as evil whatsoever, just a bit of an asshole in the single passage he was in. He has no connections to Satan or Satanism whatsoever.
>>260713627 >LaVeyan Satanism is literally atheism with objectivist beliefs. And there are rituals where you get high and stuff. Again, doing what the fuck you want. I know they don't actually worship Satan or anything like that.
There is of course, a sect of retards that do worship him for some dumbass reason, though.
>>260713443 No. This is a mixed metaphor. Lucifer/satan/saturn are all the same thing in the bible. Babylon is always the kingdom of Satan, Jerusalem the kingdom of god. In fact, the 5 kingdoms, babylon, persia, greece, rome and america are all seen as babylon. This metaphor is describing how a man believes he is god then it goes to Lucifer which also wants to be god but is something more than a man. It shows how Lucifer works through them, the classical concept of a pheonix, an angel using a man as his vessel with the power being in the pheonix not the man.
>>260711216 >and Satan was never called by that name in any passage in any bible, anywhere. That would be because the bible was written in Hebrew and Koine Greek. Every religion in recorded history has some form of adversarial figure with a similar name however, set, shaitan etc
Because in actual contemporary Christianity/Judaism Satan and Lucifer are the same entity.
Furthermore, the snake in the Genesis account of creation was not originally associated with the devil at all.
But yeah, with Gnosticism there's a difference between Satan and Lucifer but Gnosticism is a dead sect, despite the efforts of edgelords to resurrect it like the butterflyfag on /lit/.
And with the Key of Solomon all these different names for the devil are split into separate entities. Which they probably were originally actually.
See the modern interpretation of the devil became consolidated at the same time the Jews adopted true monotheism, just after the Babylonian exile.
The ancient Jews were an offshoot of the Canaanites who practiced monolatry, meaning that they accepted the existence of many gods, but believed that only one was due worship. Or at least the priestly caste thought that, the Hebrew bible makes no secret of how popular polytheism was with the common people and even the monarchy from time to time.
Anyway, back at this time Satan, who almost never actually appears in the Hebrew bible, was understood to be a member of God's celestial court who tested humanity through adversity on God's behalf. And as I was saying, the Satan who appears in Job probably isn't the same entity as the Asmodeus in Tobit. These various bad spirits were lumped together though when Satan came to be understood as the prime rebel against God, the original progenitor of sin.
>>260714552 >Gnosticism is a dead sect Scholarary Gnosticism and all its intellectual counterparts perhaps, but Gnosticism is a series of techniques and practices to achieve contact with divinity, it cant really die out because its not an idea so much as a methodology.
>>260713627 >LaVeyan Satanism is literally atheism with objectivist beliefs Not really. It's just a stupid label idiots use on themselves to be special snowflakes. That Satanism isn't a religion, doesn't have any deities or actual beliefs that those people follow. Saying ''I will do whatever I want'' isn't a religion. Everyone in every religion already does the same without calling themselves satanic.
>>260715212 No one cares. Do you even know a single Christian who actually follows some rulebook and goes to the church? Most of them just act like any other person, they aren't special snowflakes and there is no one to guilt them into anything.
>>260714480 But trendy white kid pop orientalist pseudo Buddhist hipsters believe that no Buddhist has ever misused his faith as a tool of oppression!
Because, like, the Tibetan Buddhist theocracy, the Sri Lankan civil war, the riots against Muslims Buddhist clergy are currently leading in SE Asia, and Japan and China's warlord temples aren't real, apparently.
People need to stop following Lisa Simpson's example and choosing their religion based on whatever is trendiest at the time. I've encountered far too many "Buddhists" who know fuck all about the religion they claim to follow. Go out and read the Pali canon or some sutras people.
>>260715597 >Do you even know a single Christian who actually follows some rulebook and goes to the church?
Yes, just because religion isn't as big in whatever place you are from does not mean it is gone from the world. There are lots of places where it is very influential and people go overboard into batshit insanity. I live in a country where most are catholic but are just as you mentioned, not very influenced by it, yet there is a rapidly growing number of new-protestants which are very radical and are steadily entering the political scene.
Aren't God and Satan both jerks in Book of Job? Satan says Job only worships because God gives him everything, so God makes a bet that Job will stay faithful even if God makes him miserable. So they proceed to fuck Job's life up but he remains loyal.
When Job ask why God did that, God basically says "You dare to question the all knowing?".
Ruining someone's life to win a bet. YHVH is a jerk.
>>260720942 That's correct. You're only living because he's merciful and loves you. He has every right to instantly annihilate you just like you have the right to completely annihilate everything on your hard drive. >>260720879 Their souls are still in tact which is the only thing that really matters, also, how do you know their deaths didn't lead to other people surviving? How do you know millions wouldn't have died if they didn't die?
One of the most interesting things in SMT is basically how Lucifer and YHVH are completely swapped. In one Christian doctrine, I forget which, Lucifer's assumption that he is higher than God comes from the idea that he can assure that EVERYONE is saved by stripping away free will and making everyone obedient. God in response is basically "What the fuck is the matter with you?"
Lucifer then wages war and gets thrown out of Heaven for being a control freak.
>>260721804 No. And he never erases them fully. That's the point. their souls were still in heaven. The point is he can do whatever he wants but he chooses to love us despite our failures. Our "life" is nothing more than a little picture of eternity.
>>260724809 No. It's just a place where you're allowed to choose if you want to be with God for eternity or not with God for eternity. Hell is just a place where God does not exist which is why it's a cesspool of entropy.
>>260724809 Then how come it's not completely scrambled and randomized across a global map, but easily classified and contained by national borders and cultures? And that religious people end up being the poorest and those that suffer the most, while seculars and atheists are at the top of the quality of life charts? Sociology shouldn't exist then.
>Sign up as a lowly worker and get shipped to a powerful private company's research base >I'm actually a devote satanist who was granted limited favor by his great demonic lord >A few few brothers got in the same way, some are janitors, some are doctors, some are scientists >Begin our dark work drawing symbols in blood and invoking spells, away from prying eyes >Convert other members through dark magic rituals >Sacrifice monkeys and security personnel to our dark god for bits of power to better aid us in serving it >Finally get the numbers and strength to kidnap the Chaplain and present a living sacrifice to our lord, as an act of dominance over their false abrahamic religion >Demonic constructs are now patrolling the halls, wraiths are kidnapping remaining survivors, and the Cult has assembled enough members and gathered enough forbidden knowledge to summon our lord and master into this dimension NAR-SIE HAS RISEN
>>260722159 I always thought that natural occurences that happen in the world, so all catastrophes, floods etc. And the well being of humans have nothing to do with god. He just created some shit and let it sort out for itself. At least that's how I see it. I'm a deist.
>>260729148 It's a matter of not letting anxiety get the better of you, and learning the game.
Although getting others to do your work for you is always preferable (reprogramming cyborgs, injecting a lethal implant on a victim, subverting the AI), you can always just stun pen + c4 and fuck off. Fuck, you can even do it in the middle of the hall if you have a gas mask on you to cover your face.
>>260731082 Fuck off with your American memes. It's not like it wasn't an expected response to someone who said "that religious is bullshit unlike others". He's just putting it in perspective that one religion isn't above another and my god isn't better than your god.
>>260731685 However real or not real a rlegion might be, they do have positive values in places where extremists aren't the norm. Uniting smaller communities, instilling common values, helping people learn to deal with grief.
Religion can be not real and still help society. It can also hurt real bad if not kept in check though.
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