>>256038712 >An entire game set around traipsing through the Valley of Defilement and protecting Astraea from its residents and angry clerics sent to kill her alike, as your small party gets picked off along the way
>>256044438 Dark Souls was an incomplete game because it didn't get enough time/money/whatever. There's a reason the end-game segments are so much weaker than the rest of it.
The only difference between Dark Souls and Demon's Souls is that one has loading screens and teleporation, and the other has long corridors and elevators which serve to break the world up anyway, and which make way for loading screens and teleportation later on.
>>256045395 >What else is the MiB supposed to do exactly? She could have had more plot related dialogue to share. She could have appeared as a phantasm near the start or finish of each world, maybe just to spit out a blurb about the lore of the area.
>>256045635 MiB being a maguffin doesn't count for much.
>>256045751 What part of "cannot leave the Nexus" did you not understand? She tells you all she has to about the plot. "Go kill Demons so we can put the Old One to sleep." That is the fucking plot of the game. Sorry that she doesn't give vague, meaningless exposition all the time like EH does.
>>256046402 It's a game about killing demons. It's structured like a fucking medieval Megaman. MiB is your guide, and she tells you what she needs to tell you. >she can't leave the Nexus, and tends to it >she can level you up if you're interested >she needs you to kill Demons so she can put the Old One to sleep There, done. What the fuck else do you want her to say?
>>256046828 He said he wants her to give some lore on the areas, but that's stupid for two reasons because 1) the monumental already does that and 2) part of the appeal of the souls games has always been figuring that shit out on your own.
>>256047137 >the monumental already does that No he doesn't. >part of the appeal of the souls games has always been figuring that shit out on your own. Except that this wasn't ever true of DeS because you're outright told what happened in each area.
>>256046989 >instead of letting players read about the world if they're interested, force them to mash through a bunch of dialogue if they aren't >make MiB leave the Nexus (which she cannot do), or make the player wait for her to explain shit before they can leave The reason people hate EH is because she never shuts the fuck up about shit that we don't care about. People love MiB because she's not a fucking burden.
>before Dark Souls Demons Souls discussion used to be friendly and okay >after Dark Souls no new souls game could ever be considered good (DS2) >after Dark Souls PC port the thought of a similar-but-different game is the point of shit-console/pc wars (Bloodborne)
Demons was such a great game, I sort of wish Dark Souls 1 never happened. Considering it's the worst of the three Souls games it'd probably have been better that way too.
I fucking hate MiB's voice Jesus Christ it sounds like a god damn spic with that ugly as fuck accent The only good part of her is that animation in which she's sitting and moves her feet around, but the Herald does it better
>>256047259 >The reason people hate EH is because she never shuts the fuck up about shit that we don't care about. Are you so dumb/slow you can't mash X/A fast enough that she doesn't get a word in edgewise? >People love MiB because she's not a fucking burden. she's a burden on my ears. I'll take 4 lines I can skip by mashing A over a retarded prayer chant I can't shutup without muting my headset/television
>>256047404 >video explaining what happened to the world at large is the same as a couple detailed sentences about each world. Are you being stupid on purpose? You're allowed to disagree with me but don't flounder around like an idiot trying to win arguments with idiocy.
>>256047393 I was interested in the story, anon, but it all amounted to nothing in the end. "This bitch is part Manus and wants power." Everything the Emerald Herald tells you is of no consequence whatsoever. They could have made her entirely silent and very little would have changed.
>>256047393 Not that guy, but the fuck it is. Emerald Herald has nothing interesting to say, all she ever tells you is her own boring backstory, or vague bullshit that in the end is totally meaningless. The fucking talking cat should have followed you around instead, since she actually tells you relevant shit that you give a damn about.
>>256047416 Yeah, i still remember the good threads we had. As more people play them, we incorporated some retards on the fanbase and crows that just tries to stir shit up. We'll never have them again.
>>256047692 >Over the hill and past the forest is the King's castle. Where a man peered straight into the essence of the soul. But what ever came of it… Tells you where Castle Drangleic is aswell as a little bit about what Vendrick did over there >Those who come to Drangleic seeking salvation soon lose hope, and turn Hollow.It happens to them all, sooner or later. That blue knight at the base of the tower… His spirit is already broken. Although he does offer sound advice. Perhaps he is a foreshadowing of your own future? >That tiny thing inside the ruins…An ancient being that will mock your very existence. She imparts sound wisdom. Provided you find her on a good day… Hints about local important NPCs >Bearer of the curse.Long have I awaited one such as you, one who might shatter the shackles of fate. One who can set me free. Bearer of the curse, it was my own manifestation that led you here. The ancient dragon has watched over the world for aeons past. Take this. Do not resist. The dragon welcomes you. Explains that it's her presence that's responsible for luring undead to Majula/Drangleic while simultaneously telling you no to fear the Ancient Dragon
or compare that to
>Brave soul, who fears not death. Prithee, lull the Old One back to its ancient slumber. >This is the Nexus. It holds together the northern land of Boletaria. Thou can'st not exit the Nexus, but each of the five Archstones will connect thee to another node. Basic game premise shit
>>256048506 >Liking one of the worst fights in DeS more than most bosses in gaming at large I wish you would choke to death on your own blood as it froths up from your stomach because of all the horrible noxious acid I wish I could pour in there.
>>256048320 We can see exactly where Castle Drangleic is once we enter Majula. Also, there's more than one forest and hill, so that's not actually very helpful. As for the Crestfallen Warrior dialogue, that's about the same as what the Firekeepers tell you about the travelers. She's also needlessly vague when describing Shalquoir, who by the way is everything the Herald should have been as far as dialogue goes.
As for the Dragon stuff, that comes at the very end of the game and is still needlessly overwritten. Her "manifestation" brought people to Drangleic? Also, how are you shattering the shackles of fate if you're to link the Fire? Her dialogue and agenda don't even match up there. While she tells you not to fear the Ancient Dragon, she certainly doesn't tell you why you're even seeing him, and she neglects to mention that while the dragon welcomes you, everything else most certainly does not.
The Herald's dialogue is very wordy, vague, and written to be needlessly mysterious about some very basic things. She says a lot but ultimately tells you nothing. In contrast, the Maiden in Black could be clear and mysterious at the same time.
>>256048436 How is it more annoying? It doesn't impede anything. You can even instantly cut the entire thing off by leaving the menu. Depending on your actions, it can be shorter than skipping through the Herald's dialogue.
>>256048320 More dialogue is not better. Why can't people nowadays understand the concept of elegant design ? Maiden in Black told you what was necessary to move forward. Whatever little she told you was enough to make you keep going. Just because Herald talks almost in riddles about some lore that isn't even necessary to know doesn't mean she any more meaningful than the Maiden. It's just more brute exposition. Fuck man, no wonder movies and games have to shove text and objectives on our faces all the times, people go to far lengths to defend this shit.
>>256048105 >Bloodborne threads might be alright Not on NintendoGAF it won't, same thing happened to InFamous threads. Sad thing is, I'm not even a Sonydrone, I like a little from all sides except Xbox at this point, but I'm not about to call all Xbox games shit just because they aren't on my choice of console.
>>256049206 >so that's not actually very helpful good thing I wasn't claiming it was. >She's also needlessly vague when describing Shalquoir There's nothing vague at all about it. She's the only female non human in the game who also sorta laughs at you.
> that comes at the very end of the game and is still needlessly overwritten. It doesn't matter if this is your opinion. It exists and as a result serves to further justify her existence. Something MiB doesn't have. >Her dialogue and agenda don't even match up there. You being confused and or the story being vague isn't a contradiction you faggot.
>, she certainly doesn't tell you why you're even seeing him, and she neglects to mention that while the dragon welcomes you, everything else most certainly does not. Again, you spew a mountain of autistic complaints that serve to prove nothing. Having a MiB/EH style character means you need to justify her as more than a statue at the hub world. DaS2 did this well. DeS didn't.
> In contrast, the Maiden in Black could be clear and mysterious at the same time. No she couldn't. Get your biases in line faggot. There's nothing mysterious about tellin' you to get kill demons and lull the old one.
>>256049694 Be vewy vewy quiet I'm hunting demons >>256049784 >great series >DeS is great yes >DaS is a half finished mess >DaS2 is good Uh maybe GREAT series is overselling it I mean there have only been two games before DaS2
>>256049023 >walk down a boring hallway until you're too close to the spider to see anything >mash attacks until stamina runs out >guard a fire attack >eat grass >mash attacks until stamina runs out >win
Armored Spider is INCREDIBLY shit.
Fucking DeSfags, can't even judge a bossfight somewhat objectively.
>>256049451 > You can even instantly cut the entire thing off by leaving the menu So I should have to deliberate on my stat choices without looking at the menus just so I can avoid hearing her prayers for the 100 000 000th time?
>>256049451 >Depending on your actions, it can be shorter than skipping through the Herald's dialogue. Not possible. I shut the Herald up in less than 1.5 seconds. Mashing buttons to skip her words is easy and doesn't force me to compromise.
>>256049567 >More dialogue is not better sure >Maiden in Black told you what was necessary to move forward. Whatever little she told you was enough to make you keep going Exactly. She did almost Nothing of value while serving to make me frustrated and mad every time I had to hear her fucking chants again. >. Just because Herald talks almost in riddles about some lore that isn't even necessary to know doesn't mean she any more meaningful than the Maiden No, she's just better designed and implemented. She does more to justify herself. >Lore/Plot >Estus upgrades >Leveling up MiB only fits into one of those categories properly. She shares her lore role with the monumental.
>>256049603 Then why mention that dialogue? It doesn't really tell you anything then. As for Shalquoir, the Herald is extremely vague and dramatic about a dang cat that lives in a house 50 feet away. The point about the Herald's dialogue coming late is to emphasize that it takes forever before she finally tells you anything about herself, and even then it's structured oddly. Also, that line is indeed a contradiction. Linking the Fire is treated as an inevitable, fated option throughout the game, something that Vendrick and Aldia tried to avoid. The Herald speaks as if you'll break that cycle, but the ending reveals that she actually wants you to link the Fire, which just continues the shackled fate that the brothers sought to escape. As for justification in the game world, the Maiden in Black is the reason why slayers of demons can empower themselves with souls and is the key to sealing the Old One. The Herald exists in a series where Bonfires could level you up just fine before and she does nothing but try to point you somewhere, having no true relevance of her own. As for mystery, the Maiden's demonic nature and who she may have been in ancient times is left open to interpretation, as is her connection with the Old One, why she has the wax on her eyes, etc.
>There is a question I have long had in my mind It is whether we are right to banish the Old One >And I now have the answer, and it is a resounding no. >Listen closely. The Old One must not be cut off from us. If the candle maiden tries to entrap it, kill her.
>>256050023 If you already know what you want to level up, you can do so immediately and leave the screen whenever you want, instantly ending the entire chant. With the Herald you have to skip four lines no matter what, and said lines can cause a delay in the menu even appearing.
>She did almost Nothing of value while serving to make me frustrated and mad every time
>she's just better designed and implemented. She does more to justify herself.
You just have some terrible opinion. Really, there's nothing even to discuss anymore...you're simply someone who appreciate being over exposed with information. No matter what i say you'll never appreciate the Maiden because she's done inside a design you aren't fond for.
>>256050805 >Linking the Fire is treated as an inevitable No it isn't > The Herald speaks as if you'll break that cycle, but the ending reveals that she actually wants you to link the Fire, which just continues the shackled fate that the brothers sought to escape. Because she's a failure and the only answer is to link the fire to keep it away from Nashandra and her sisters. > the Maiden in Black is the reason why slayers of demons can empower themselves with souls and is the key to sealing the Old One. You haven't made a point.
>a series where Bonfires could level you up just fine before This complaint it retarded. It's like saying we don't need to level at bonfires because in the older games we didn't use archstones but an NPC to level up.
You're going on about ephemeral lore shit. Don't. You're stupid. It's way simpler than all this
>Emerald Heralds plays more important plot and game related roles >Emerald Herald's dialogue acknowledges game progress >Emerald Herald actually expands on lore and shows up to play that role >Emerald Herald's most annoying aspects can be skipped and ignored in under 1 second >Maiden in Black plays a minimal story and plot role >Maiden in Black repeats dialogue endlessly to the point of irritation
>>256051349 >someone who appreciate being over exposed It's got nothing to do with information and everything to do with not being EXTREMELY fucking annoying and having better justification for her existence from lore AND gameplay perspectives.
I've only ever beaten Flamelurker by cheesing him. It's easy to get him stuck around the huge bones. He'll keep attempting to dash at you against the bones, being stuck in place, and you can hit him there until he dies. Occasionally you just have to be aware of his jump attack that makes a big explosion that can hit you through the bones.
>>256051306 >, and said lines can cause a delay in the menu even appearing. No they don't. that was release day console version. >If you already know what you want to level up, you can do so immediately and leave the screen whenever you want Nope. You can't know the exact cost of each level without her menu.
>>256051349 I think the problem is either: a) He's absolutely in love with The Herald and will not listen to reason b) He hates the Maiden's voice/accent so much that he's willing to just project that hate onto every other part of her.
Either way, there's some serious psychological shit going on there. No sane man could think that Dragon fucker is better than the Maiden, let alone a good character.
>>256050946 The first half of the game was amazing, I will admit But the second half is so god awful that it ruins the game for me. In both DeS and DaS2, there was no point where I said "This is awful, I don't want to play this anymore." The state of Lost Izalith is the worst out of all of it, and is fucking unacceptable "The birthplace of demons" is reduced to annoyingly bright bloom, dragon butts, timpani demons that look ridiculous rather then scary, and THOSE STUPID FUCKING STATUES WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING SINCE THE DEMON RUINS WHERE'S THE CREATIVITY And it's not just LI It's ALL the lord soul areas And it really doesn't matter that it was rushed, it doesn't excuse the fact that playing through them is an awful experience All in all it ruined DaS for me.
>>256051471 >It's got nothing to do with information and everything to do with not being EXTREMELY fucking annoying and having better justification for her existence from lore AND gameplay perspectives.
Do you listen to yourself ? For you the Maiden is annoying and doesn't have a good existence justification from lore and gameplay perspective. How am i suppose to argue with this ? It's just plain factually wrong. What the hell.
>>256051868 Yeah, it's definitely something psychological. I'm done with you.
>>256051703 Right, they're all memorable encounters with some unique mechanic or situation (for the most part). I don't think that the combat system of the Souls games is conducive to interesting boss fights based solely on combat. There's only so much you can do with it. That's why everybody complains about Dark Souls II's bosses, and even a lot of Dark Souls' bosses were pretty lackluster. Demon's Souls avoids this by having something other than just combat involved.
Look at Dark Souls II. Most people agree that the Chariot is one of the better bosses. Is it hard? No. But it's different and memorable.
>going down the stairs to fight Dragon God >Get down to the bottom >Dragon God lets out a high pitched screech that's loud as fuck >mfw It was obviously a glitch, but holy shit it scared the fuck out of me. I wish I had recorded it. It was like his basic roar, but amplified x2 and raised in pitch x4.
>>256051687 >But the second half is so god awful that it ruins the game for me. I have never understood this. Lost Izalith still had great atmosphere and wasn't remotely tedious to get through unless you're retarded. The rest of the areas were perfectly fine, with New Londo and Dukes being almost as good as any earlier part of the game.
See, the problem is: FUCKING STATUES WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING SINCE THE DEMON RUINS WHERE'S THE CREATIVITY I felt this way through ALL of Dark Souls 2.
>All in all it ruined DaS for me. And that is absolutely, incredibly bizarre coming from somebody that has implied that Dark Souls 2 is the better game and doesn't suffer from bigger problems.
>>256051976 >it's not annoying to hear her autistic shitty little prayers on repeat a thousand times >having only 3 or 4 major dialogue lines makes up for how her dialogue doesn't acknowledge game progress or how she ONLY sits around the nexus being boring
>>256051703 All of Boletaria's bosses except Allant were shit. False Idol wasn't memorable and Old Monk is only remembered for the online gimmick. Honestly, the only memorable bosses were >Allant >Flamelurker >Dragon God for being a puzzle >Old Monk >Maneaters >Paladin guy and his lady
>>256051976 Probably just fucking with us, nobody could have those specific gripes about MiB and still somehow think EH is a good character when she's even more of an annoying useless cunt that ultimately says and does absolutely nothing of relevance or value to the game or story at large.
>>256052314 >MiB's biggest flaw is being an annoying bitch who never shuts up >Emerald Herald can be told to shut up It's that simple. Everything else is gravy, though it doesn't make that gravy any less valid to be secondary. Her plot roles and changing dialogue do a LOT to further solidify her as superior to MiB
>>256052032 The best souls bosses are the ones that combine combat with some sort of unique mechanic or situation.
The problem with most Demon's Souls bosses is that too many of them were too "mechanic", or more accurately, gimmick focused. With the exception of Penetrator/Allant, and Astraea (merely because of the narrative implications), I wouldn't say any of the end-world bosses were actually that good. Atmospheric, yes, but mechanically really lame.
I'm not going to claim that Dark Souls didn't have its share of lemons though, and that DaS2 wasn't bad for just going down the pure combat route.
>>256051471 Yes it is. Even the Ember you get mentions that the Flame being weak is a natural state that flares up at times, and there are "a new flame rises from the ashes" elements everywhere. Also, even if the Herald's a failure, isn't the point that she's looking for someone who won't fail? Hoping they link the Fire goes against her dialogue at the Dragon Aerie. Regarding the Maiden's Soul Arts, she is indeed crucial and important to the game; she's the reason the Monumental can even amass an army of demon slayers in the first place, she empowers people so they can stand a fighting chance (with the risk that they'll become power-hungry and turn into demons), and she has the most vital role of all, ultimately stopping the Old One and saving the world. The Herald does have more exposition, yes, but she needlessly complicates her explanations while ultimately saying nothing that's truly informative. She even clams up entirely in some places, effectively standing there doing nothing.
As for the Bonfire point, Dark Souls introduced the Bonfires, resting places and power wells that let you level up. Dark Souls 2 features the same Bonfires but removed the leveling option solely to give the Herald some justification. As such, her function isn't actually unique to the Dark Souls series, which led a lot of people to see her as a time-consuming inconvenience.
If you seriously find the Maiden's brief, easily skipped background chant extremely annoying compared to the Herald, then that's ultimately a subjective matter and it's doubtful this discussion will change that.
>>256052408 No, it's really not that, and that's a hypocritical claim to make after saying that you had to rage-quit in the middle of Dark Souls because it was apparently that bad. I've beaten all 3 games multiple times myself.
Dark Souls 2 suffers from poor design throughout almost the entire game. Holy shit, they even included fucking dragon butts in the DLC.
>>256052783 Not a single one of them looks as good as the tower knight or has a theme that comes even close to his. But I would've complained about DeS too if every boss was some unispired version of the tower knight.
>>256051612 It's not nearly as bad anymore, but occasionally there can still be a brief delay. Also, for leveling up you really just need to pour souls into the thing you want until it locks you out. The whole process is extremely fast.
>>256052271 What facts ? What logic ? MiB have lore and gameplay reasons to be there. You hate her for being annoying but she has less dialogue. The little dialogue she has is background noise and don't interrupt gameplay. The only dumb here is yourself who thinks your grips are logical and factual when they're entirely the opposite of that. You're biased over Herald. Just go and be happy with it.
>>256048332 Penetrator has to be my favourite boss. By chance alone, he turned into such a rollercoaster for me.
>Hunting fat fuck >Motherfucker trolls me through the entire level >Defeat all the knights and shit, walk through the fog >"Alright you little cunt, time to die." >MASSIVE FUCKING SWORD THROUGH THE CHEST >Get him down to half life before mis-timing a dodge and die >Fight my way back to him, a fucking bird flies straight into my window with a loud thud; when I look back at the screen he's penetrated me >Final attempt had the frustration get the better of me and I botched it again >Say fuck it and do some exploring instead, eventually finding both Yuria and Biorr >Go back to fighting the Penetrator >"YO DEMON SLAYER, I GOT YOUR BACK SON" >Stand unmoving and in shock for long enough for Biorr to take down half his life >"AIN'T NO PUNK ASS DEMON GONNA FUCK WITH MY HOME" >Sit back as Biorr solos the nigger and becomes my best friend
>NG+ >"Biorr's got this, I'ma chill." >Biorr gets his ass raped, half his health is gone and the Penetrator isn't sweating >"Shit, I've got to save him." >Pen has Biorr stuck in a corner >I charge in like a fucking retard swinging around the Dragon Bone Smasher >It hits Biorr through the Penetrator, killing him >I'm stunned and stare in horror at what I've just done, before Penetrator takes advantage and penetrates me further >Eventually go back wearing Biorr's armour and wielding his weapons and murder the shit out of the faggot
>>256052695 >Even the Ember you get mentions that the Flame being weak is a natural state that flares up at times, So? > "a new flame rises from the ashes" elements everywhere Yes because the game is about how the flame was lit a lot between DaS1 and DaS2. The cycel fo the chosen undead occurs lots. That's NOT the same as implying Fire Linking is inevitable. > isn't the point that she's looking for someone who won't fail? No. She's a failed experiment. She can't ask somebody to succeed at a role she was BORN to fulfill.
>she's the reason the Monumental can even amass an army of demon slayers in the first place, and she has the most vital role of all, ultimately stopping the Old One and saving the world Too bad she never talks about this much and hardly even acknowledges game progress
>The Herald does have more exposition, yes, but she needlessly complicates her explanations while ultimately saying nothing that's truly informative. She even clams up entirely in some places, effectively standing there doing nothing. Which is still FAR preferable to never doing anything at all.
>Dark Souls 2 features the same Bonfires but removed the leveling option solely to give the Herald some justification. Actually the bonfire leveling option removal is part of a several elements of DeS they worked into DaS2. It serves the horizontal world design to force a hub
>>256052919 Without seeing the cost per level, you won't be able to balance your spending.
>>256053089 > You hate her for being annoying but she has less dialogue. Less dialogue, but dialogue which I have no choice but to listen to on repeat. >The little dialogue she has is background noise and don't interrupt gameplay It's much worse than background noise. It's a flaw that makes me dread even choosing to level up.
Meanwhile you guys think Emerald Herald is inferior despite the following differences/improvements she's got to bring to the table >actually acknowledging your quest progress >shutting the fuck up when asked >does more than sit at the hub the whole game
>>256053260 She's not even human. Of course she's spouting riddles and shit.
>Dude, the Emerald Herald is an awful character. I don't think she's great, she's just WAY better than that trainwreck from Demon's Souls
>>256053356 It took me a while but I got it and I giggled.
>>256053296 This is literally the first time I've been outnumbered in regards to my opinion on the Tower Knight theme. It's usually just one guy saying he likes it while everybody else laughs.
Then again, tonight has been a weird night, with entire threads made up of almost positive discussion about The Last of Us, and a guy in this thread actually waifufagging the Emerald Herald. Is it a full moon?
>>256052093 >Great atmosphere What atmosphere There is barely any atmosphere, it's just a city in lava with demons inside it Hardly the "birthplace of demons" we were promised >New Londo Okay I can't really complain about that Was a little disappointing how short it was though >Dukes Starts out fine Then as soon as you get out of the prison you realize that it's really tiny and then you get to the crystal caves, which is also a huge disappointment
As to your second point, the difference is while yes they reused enemies, they were actually enjoyable to fight in DaS2 The demon statues were just boring and were annoying to fight. All they did was float around and breath fire.
>>256052826 I didn't rage quit, I beat the game. I'm just saying the game made me WANT to ragequit because it was so awful. And the dragon butts in the DLC were hella better then the dragon butts from DaS Mostly because they're easier to fight in the sense that you're not surrounded by annoying bloom and the screen shaking every time they moved Also, they're far enough apart that you won't aggro them all at once, unlike A CERTAIN ENEMY IN DaS 1
>>256053848 >There is barely any atmosphere, it's just a city in lava with demons inside it You're basically just a huge pleb who can't appreciate Dravidian Architecture.
>Hardly the "birthplace of demons" we were promised You're really just butthurt over some incredibly arbitrary thing. You're so buttblasted over Lost Izalith not being the Birthplace of Demon's that you dreamed of, that you're willing to project your disappointment onto almost the entire game, meanwhile ignoring the fact that DaS2 is an abject disappointment both in design and atmosphere from start to finish.
>>256054649 I shouldn't have to tell you why NPCs who acknowledge quest progress is good. I shouldn't have to explain why a major NPC playing a more involved role in the plot is good. I REALLY shouldn't have to explain why dialogue that plays on a loop is a bad thing.
>>256054616 Dude, I agree with you that Dark Souls II is shit, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think that Lost Izalith is worse than most of the areas in it. Overall Dark Souls is much better, but you're just talking out of your ass here.
>>256054648 I'm not him, but my personal refutation is that The Emerald Herald provides excessive exposition in a game which doesn't require it, and does so in meaningless, idiotic riddles which add almost nothing to the experience or to your understanding of the game. She's a far more pervasive and annoying presence than the Maiden in Black, whose only real fault is the fact that she repeats the same line too often, in the background.
>>256050006 >>great series >>DeS is great yes >>DaS is a half finished, but still great >>DaS2 is good
Yes there has only been two games before DaS2 and they were both amazing in their own way. DaS2 tried to mix the best aspects of both games and for the most part it did good job, but it still missed the mark in capturing the ethos of the Soul series.
>>256055101 Dark Souls has more of a focus on combat, and when they try to play Demon's Souls the same way it comes up short. Demon's Souls is more about progression through the level and exploration, the enemies only exist to serve that end.
>>256055153 Does it really change the game if you don't accept the Monumental's offer? I figured I'd just do it later. The whole "only you must save the world thing" is kinda boring so I wanted to wait a little before pretending to buy into it again.
>>256055107 >She's a far more pervasive and annoying presence than the Maiden in Black But half my point is that the Emerald Herald is something you can mitigate. You can choose to mash past all her dialogue. You can choose to never ever talk to her when she pops up at the Throne of Want and Dragon Aerie and Undead Crypt.
>meaningless, idiotic riddles which add almost nothing to the experience or to your understanding of the game I'm going to offend you with this but I can't avoid it: You're pretty fucking stupid if you think her dialogue is meaningless or "riddles"
>MiB has very little dialogue and never acknowledges your current gamestate Quality of dialogue > Quantity of Dialogue >EH has lots of dialogue and changes her statements based on your game progress She repeats herself like crazy which is fine for her incantation but not for the rest. Also her incantation is frontloaded which is beyond retarded. >MiB doesn't do anything for almost the whole game except sit around the Nexus She fulfills a purpose. Again the amount of time a character gets in a story has nothing to do with quality. >>EH turns up at major plot progression moments and talks to you and expands on the story All her appearances we're jarring and didn't amount to anything in the end. Nothing she said was NEEDED. >>MiB chants an annoying as fuck prayer nonstop when you're trying to choose your stat investments It's an incantation >>EH says a few canned lines you can skip past VERY quickly when you want to interact with her I guess if you deactivate your subtitles it isn't annoying. I always manage to read them every time I mash through it. But it isn't too bad. Also you're not really proving the character is well written by bringing up the ability to skip her dialogue as a good thing you idiot.
>>256053243 "So?" That and several other things portray linking the Fire as the fated cycle that Vendrick and Aldia were precisely trying to avoid. The cycle that the Herald implies she wants broken at Dragon Aerie, only to turn around and want it to continue at the Throne of Want. Also, it doesn't matter if the Herald was born to break the cycle; she couldn't do it, mostly because she was a botched experiment. Her whole goal is to find someone who'll succeed where she failed. The Maiden in Black doesn't need to talk about the soul army and powers much when they're clear and established early on, and also pointed out by other characters. Also, the Herald really does do nothing at all. She just stands around saying a lot but conveying nothing. As for the Bonfires, the point is that the DaS series established that Bonfires level you up just fine. In DaS 2 that feature's locked out for no reason, forcing you to have to warp back to Majula every time you want to level up, even though DaS 2's multiple Bonfires are better suited for staying in one area as you traverse it.
Looking at the cost per level takes a second-long glance. Just load up on souls to go over that number then return and spend them in the stat you want.
>>256055639 PvP is an element too, but Dark Souls plays differently enough to be jarring for people going to Demon's Souls. It's slower, weightier, and you have more attacks. Demon's Souls can feel limited and floaty by comparison. Dark Souls also has more enemy variety, and parrying is more useful too. The level design feels more like the enemies are spaced from one another, while in Demon's Souls they're placed in relation to the environment. That's not to say that one game doesn't have the elements that the other focuses on, but I definitely think that Demon's Souls is more about environment interaction, while Dark Souls is about enemy interaction.
>>256055727 >Quality of dialogue > Quantity of Dialogue So dialogue that directly acknowledges your ingame efforts and progress is of a low quality? My whole point is that the quality level goes up immensely when you start accounting for context sensitive lines. >Also her incantation is frontloaded which is beyond retarded. There's nothing wrong with it if I can mash past it without seeing or hearing it. >All her appearances we're jarring Nope >Didn't amount to anything in the end. Except for explaining what Vendrick and Aldia had attempted to do in order to answer the curse of the undead and shit. >It's an incantation Or a prayer chant. You can't know for sure, don't be a dumb cunt. > I always manage to read them every time I mash through it I literally don't believe you. I skip so fast she never even opens her mouth much less has time to activate subtitles >you're not really proving the character is well written Good thing that was never my goal and not a point I've tried to support.
>>256055904 Yeah, Dark Souls II definitely seems to be moving in the Hack and Slash direction. Still, I think that going into Dark Souls the devs definitely wanted to focus on improving the combat and creating interesting situations with that more than anything. That's just the feeling I get when playing the game.
>>256055465 >You're pretty fucking stupid if you think her dialogue is meaningless or "riddles" Okay >"This castle is isolated, but you must press on" "T-thanks, can I have some more information please?" >"...." Unless I am as stupid as you say, at least half of what she has to say is as vague as this, or at the very least is nothing more than unnecessarily vague foreshadowing that can be interpreted in a million ways, but still doesn't actually add to the story in any way.
>>256054616 >architecture What the fuck does that have to do with anything Were it Gothic architecture or Roman architecture I would still dislike the area for just being a city in lava with nothing interesting going for it >You're really just butthurt over some incredibly arbitrary thing. No, I'm "butthurt" because the area is absolute trash. Terrible enemies, awful bloom, wasted design, and the worst boss in the souls series. I'm also "butthurt" that the second half of the game is a gigantic disappointment compared to the first half.
But you know what, that's not the point of this thread So how bout that Demon's Souls
>>256054865 The Monumental was the NPC who acknowledged your quest progress and got new dialogue, and the Nexus itself acknowledged the progress with the changing music. Also, the dialogue plays because it's the dang spell that lets you level up in the first place.
>>256056230 >So dialogue that directly acknowledges your ingame efforts and progress is of a low quality? Not necessarily no. >My whole point is that the quality level goes up immensely when you start accounting for context sensitive lines. That is equally wrong though. >Nope Yes. Take the one before the castle for example. Were did she come from? YOU just opened the Shrine of winter and moved past a bunch of enemies. Why was she suddenly there? The information she gave you was useless. >Except for explaining what Vendrick and Aldia had attempted to do in order to answer the curse of the undead and shit. Please expand on that I'm curious if there is something I don't know about them that would make me like the EH more. >Or a prayer chant. You can't know for sure, don't be a dumb cunt. My point was that it wasn't annoying because that is how incantations or prayers or Poems work. You're supposed to remember them. >I literally don't believe you. I skip so fast she never even opens her mouth much less has time to activate subtitles Just tried it out again just to see if they changed it and mashing as fast as I can I can still read the first half of every sentence. >Good thing that was never my goal and not a point I've tried to support. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove then. We're comparing two characters here right? So if one of them isn't well written that one is worse.
>>256055465 You can mitigate the Maiden in Black too. The difference is that the Herald's dialogue is an obstacle to what you want to do, whereas the Maiden's dialogue is present while you do what you came there for and entirely ends when you're finished. Only the Herald presents an obstacle.
>>256057075 >Were did she come from? this question is irrelevant. >Why was she suddenly there? She wanted to talk to me > The information she gave you was useless. So? >Please expand on that I'm curious if there is something I don't know about them that would make me like the EH more. They made her as some sort of an attempt at curing the curse. that's all we can know. >My point was that it wasn't annoying because that is how incantations or prayers or Poems work. I shouldn't be forced to remember it because I've been forced to hear it 100 times. I should be remembering it because it had lyrical value >Just tried it out again just to see if they changed it and mashing as fast as I can I can still read the first half of every sentence. Are you on PC? >I'm not sure what you're trying to prove then. That Emerald Herald is better than MiB in almost every respect.
>>256057764 The demons from world 4 were so powerful, that they were destroying entire lands with nobody to stop them. If you were to be able to go to the land depicted in that concept art, you wouldn't stand a chance.
However, world 4 was in the works and you were supposed to be able to visit it as we all know. The finished models and textures make it seem like a snowy area, and some of the enemy models are straight out of DaS, with some one enemy looking almost identical to the man serpents from Sen's Fortress.
>>256057324 >the second half of the game is basically of the quality of Dark Souls 2 Are you being serious right now? I What Do you HONESTLY think the entirety of DaS2 is the same level of quality as the awful second half of DaS1? Sure it may not have been all as great as the first half, but to put it on the same level as the second half? Nothing in DaS2 is anywhere NEAR as bad as the second half of DaS1 I see now No point in arguing with you anymore, cause you clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about
>>256058423 Maybe it was going to part of the tower of latria Forbidden knowledge and all that crap
When you access the MiB to level up and what not, you can still do what you need to do while she's talking. When Herald talks, you have to sit there as she goes over her repetitive bullshit every time before she lets you do anything.
>>256056821 >do a mini challenge run of sorts for DeS >basically, I have to play the worlds in a rigid order (-1 worlds in order, then -2, then -3 starting with 5-3, ending with 1-3 and moving on to 1-4) and am not allowed to go back to the Nexus until I kill the area boss >get to 3-2 with only a longsword +4 >my lack of face when Maneaters It's a really good boss, but Jesus Christ, cut me some slack.
>>256058827 They kind of still did with the Old Hero's death animation.
The Land of the Giants was a victim of time constraints. Some assets were made, but the call was made early on. The enemies probably don't have all the attacks they were planned to get, and the attack speeds would have likely been altered for some of them. Also, just how giant they'd get would also be an issue. I mean, look at this picture. >>256057764
>>256058204 I didn't mind the voice OR her incantation until it was ruined for me by playing ad nauseam.
>>256058323 In the end? Yes. But EH has advantages other than that. I'm amazed how much /v/ whines that other games feature NPCs who never acknowledge game progress but can just ignore it when it flies against their shitty nostalgia. Incantations and such totally aside, it's important to have a central NPC like the MiB or EH behave like she's paying attention to your quest. Emerald Herald accomplishes this by verbally acknowledging your progress and growth and then physically following you afterwards to continue to solidify the sense that she cares about and follows your efforts.
Emerald Herald is more alive and more part of the world itself. MiB just sits in the Nexus and spews canned dialogue on repeat until the end of the game.
>>256058797 >When you access the MiB to level up and what not, you can still do what you need to do while she's talking Yes but is hearing her dialogue needlessly on repeat worth saving a quick moment of button mashing?
>not liking ginger hair I guess it's too exotic for you?
In DeS we've got >Lengthy detailed cutscenes full of clear explanations >Two NPCs in the first area who explain most of the rest of the plot >a sentence per archtstone that elaborates directly on the local happenings
Do you REALLY need plot thrown into your face like that? Part of the charm with DeS is that you had to actually study the items and the descriptions of areas at the archstones. I prefer to uncover the lore through these types of discoveries. I don't want to visit a Tourist Kiosk to have a tour guide explain shit to me.
>>256059376 I've already responded to this basic argument.
All you need to do is cut those little blurbs they have the warp menu about each archstone and give them to her as dialogue. They could even use it add exploration content or a small quest if they made finding her location in each level a little hard to reach via exploration or combat.
>>256058641 >Do you HONESTLY think the entirety of DaS2 is the same level of quality as the awful second half of DaS1? Yes, it really is. Duke's Archives, New Londo Ruins and maybe Tomb of the Giants are as good as anything in Dark Souls 2, which isn't hard. Lost Izalith brings it down a little I guess.
>No point in arguing with you anymore, cause you clearly don't know what the fuck you're talking about What? >Lack of enemy variety >Lack of boss variety >Most areas are just strings of linear corridors with the occasional open arena >The difficulty/challenge is almost always administered by placing several "guys with weapons" in the same area, with almost no variation >Little exploration >Enemies are much less subject to the rules of not only the player, but reality (Scantily clad lion men with infinite poise and stamina, fuckhuge Woolly Mammoths in heavy armor can get stunlocked by a dagger etc. etc.) >Much less loot hidden behind risk/reward scenarios >Most secrets are behind invisible walls rather than concealed by actual level design >Most bosses are just "armored guy with weapon" The difference here is that I know what I'm talking about, and I recognize trash video game design when I see it.
Okay, to be fair, I recognize sub-Dark/Demon's Souls design when I see it.
>>256059375 The voice and chant getting annoying is still a subjective thing. It personally never annoyed me, and unless I was intentionally farming I didn't have to level up very often. You can advance several levels at a time too, so it's not like the process was tedious.
>>256059612 >Lack of enemy variety Plagues all three games. >Lack of boss variety There's far more of them and they hardly ever get as blatantly bad as the worst offenders in other games >Most areas are just strings of linear corridors with the occasional open arena This is vast oversimplification and a sign that you're just looking to confirm your own biases. >The difficulty/challenge is almost always administered by placing several "guys with weapons" in the same area, with almost no variation The hardest parts of the previous games had been multi enemy moments too y'know. >Little exploration There's more content and more optional content than ever before. Factually wrong. >Enemies are much less subject to the rules Get gud you whiny little baby >Much less loot hidden behind risk/reward scenarios Outright wrong. The lockstone system is the definition of risk and reward and even without that there's lots of dangerous loot placements >Most secrets are behind invisible walls rather than concealed by actual level design I guess that's true >Most bosses are just "armored guy with weapon" and that's not actually a problem.
>>256060667 Just because I don't agree with him or think he has terrible taste does not mean I have to tell myself he isn't serious. This isn't a hugbox. I'm not on /v/ because I always want everyone to agree with me.
>>256060763 >>256060815 But this is a DEMON'S SOULS thread, not a DARK SOULS 2 thread. If you want to yell at each other over trivial shit, then go to /DSG/ or one of the many DaS2 thread on /v/. DeS threads are rare enough as it is on /v/ already, and we don't need people wasting away the bump limit over this shit.
>>256060893 >less than 2 seconds of button mashing >less than 2 seconds of a kneeling animation
I don't see that being as bad as forcing repeated dialogue you can't turn off. non optional repetitive dialogue is one of the biggest sins a game can commit
>>256060964 >ignoring what I said about finding items that describe lore But what you said has nothing to do with this. >Also, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort to find the EH either. this also has nothing to do with the debate at hand.
you tried to hate on my idea about giving maiden region specific dialgue she gives you if you find her in each level by saying it would make the game spoodfeed me the lore. I'm sorry you got all confused and mixed up because you're too stupid. It really wasn't too complex of an idea.
>>256059375 Demon's Souls did have a character who acknowledged your game progress: The Monumental, the Maiden's boss. He was quite clear too, and opened up a lot about the history of the world, the consequences of the Soul Arts, etc. Progress for the Herald was just a new direction to be pointed at followed by infinite ellipses.
Also, the Herald comes across as wasted potential, taking a lot of time to really say or do nothing for the plot in the end.
>>256062297 >He was quite clear too, and opened up a lot about the history of the world, the consequences of the Soul Arts, etc He wasn't directly acknowledging your progress though, THE GAME acknowledged your progress by unlocking more dialogue with him. Still it's a fair point to make.
I'd like to counter by pointing out how much of a chore it is to go talk to the monumental. It makes good sense from a game design standpoint to combine his role with that of the MiB.
>Progress for the Herald was just a new direction to be pointed at followed by infinite ellipses. > the Herald comes across as wasted potential Yes, but she's still a general step up from MiB. Can you imagine the potential of a Hub Waifu with the improvements of Emerald Herald but with a Solaire/Lucatiel style story you can get invested in or maybe even Kathe/Frampt levels of plot exposition?
>>256060317 >>The difficulty/challenge is almost always administered by placing several "guys with weapons" in the same area, with almost no variation >The hardest parts of the previous games had been multi enemy moments too y'know. I don't remember that in DeS, most of the hard things in DeS were quick fucks that hit for half your health and not being able to fucking roll..
>>256062931 DeS had plenty of that, it was just easier to handle because the enemies had no shields. Dark Souls had it too, but again it was mostly with torch hollows who have no shields and no poise. It's only in Dark Souls II that they make it tedious as hell.
>>256062931 >Multiple Giant Depraved Ones more then once >Plague Babies >Swamp Jellyfish >Hordes of knights just beyond the reach of dragon flames >All those manta-rays shooting you throughout SoS >All those rockworms in 2-2 >Necromancer Wraiths in SoS
>>256063229 The thing is, it wasn't perfect. There were plenty of obvious improvements they could have made, but instead they took a step backward. I'll never understand how Dark Souls II ended up the way it did.
>Estus doesn't heal all at once >Can't just kindle up to 20 at once >Drink speed be influenced by stat investment >Secondary healing choice to promote DeS-eque lack of major pressure when exploring as well as adding a moment of deliberation when you choose to eat a gem or drink some sunny D
Can't account for autists who complain all day but can't notice what's been done for the better though. You'll probably insist I've just proved WHY DaS2 is shit.
>>256063251 >Multiple Giant Depraved Ones more then once Avoid Giant depraved ones like the plague, it only took me one mace to the face to work that out. >Plague Babies Ran past. >Hordes of knights just beyond the reach of dragon flames After seeing the dragon kill them (and me) I just lured them out and got the dragon to smoke them. >All those manta-rays shooting you throughout SoS Run forest. >Necromancer Wraiths in SoS Keep running forest
Honestly, if something kills me once the next thing I do is try to run past it and it normally works.
>>256063723 >Drink speed be influenced by stat investment That's fucking retarded
Lifegems are terrible though, and they invalidate your second point. Remember in Dark Souls when you got hit for less damage than an Estus healed, so you had to decide whether to be wasteful and use the Estus, or wait? That's an interesting decision that you don't have to make anymore. When you don't limit the available healing then the game loses something.
>promote DeS-eque lack of major pressure when exploring The game isn't structured like DeS though. In Dark Souls and Dark Souls II you have bonfires, and you're given a limited amount of healing between them. Lifegems only interfere with that balance.
I'm not trying to pretend that Dark Souls II didn't make any improvements at all, but overall it's definitely a step backward.
>>256064134 Regardless. I proved that all the games use multi enemy encounters as their hardest battles. DaS2 does it more because they seem to have had a small focus on tripping up DeS/DaS vets with shit like
>backstab proof tanky knights >infinite poise enemies >multiple enemy battles that're harder to defuse with luring
>>256064331 >That's fucking retarded I suggest you play a different genre then.
>The game isn't structured like DeS though. That's not the point and yes it is. the Nexus features a connection to several linear paths that end with a major boss. Majula does the same.
Having only 5 estus for all your exploration wasn't very fun at times. Not only did it limit how much they could use harmful falls in level design, but it forced needless backtracking and repeated killing of enemies. Lower Blighttown is a good example of why DaS2 could have benefited from Lifegems.
>>256064537 >Then again I also like adp so my opinion is automatically shit. Pretty much. Part of what made Demon's Souls and Dark Souls great were their consistency in things like that. Anyway, required stats don't add depth to leveling.
>>256063723 >Drink speed be influenced by stat investment How the fuck is that a good thing? >Secondary healing choice to promote DeS-eque lack of major pressure when exploring as well as adding a moment of deliberation when you choose to eat a gem or drink some sunny D And that made health not a consideration anymore in DaS2. In DaS1 I had to consider if I should use an estus now and go into a new area with full health or wait until I could use it to its full effect in case the next bonfire is too far ahead. In DaS2 I just always popped a stone between fights because that was the best solution.
>>256064758 >How the fuck is that a good thing? IT'S AN RPG WITH STAT BUILDING. THE MORE THINGS YOUR STATS INFLUENCE THE DEEPER AND BETTER THE SYSTEM IS.
>And that made health not a consideration Just like in DeS. > In DaS1 I had to consider if I should use an estus now and go into a new area with full health or wait until I could use it to its full effect in case the next bonfire is too far ahead. And now every time you're hurt you have to consider if you want a faster stronger reusable but rarer healing choice or a slower riskier but faster and more costly heal over time.
>>256064710 >That's not the point and yes it is. That is my point, and no it isn't. Dark Souls II has bonfires, which removes the need for things like grass.
>Having only 5 estus for all your exploration wasn't very fun at times. It is for me. If it's not for you then kindle the bonfire, they gave you an option for that reason.
>Not only did it limit how much they could use harmful falls in level design This is a good thing. Dark Souls makes great use of verticality in places, but making you take a bunch of damage and then giving you lifegems to heal it wouldn't add anything at all to the game. In fact, it would only take away that tool since harmful falls become meaningless.
>but it forced needless backtracking and repeated killing of enemies You mean it made you make tough decisions? Like whether or not to push forward in hopes of finding a bonfire, or turn back and spend your souls but lose progress? I love that.
>Lower Blighttown is a good example of why DaS2 could have benefited from Lifegems. Not really. They space the islands so that you never need to get poisoned.
Lifegems completely invalidate the interesting resource management that the Estus system creates.
>>256062826 It's not really a pain to go see the Monumental. Visits to the Nexus are kind of a break from the world as is.
I think the Herald was an attempt to expand upon the Maiden in Black, but I don't think it was successful. The main thing about the Herald that stood out to me was how she could say so much yet impart so little at the same time. Also, if she was raised by dragons on a mountain or in a lab somewhere, why is she so wordy and prone to riddle-speak? It's almost like she's putting on airs to seem more important than she actually is.
>>256065075 >THE MORE THINGS YOUR STATS INFLUENCE THE DEEPER AND BETTER THE SYSTEM IS. nononononono. I hope you are exaggerating because fuck you if you actually believe an rpg with 500 different stats would be good. >Just like in DeS. Even worse actually. You know have healing items and the fucking estus and 4 ring slots. >>256065075 >And now every time you're hurt you have to consider if you want a faster stronger reusable but rarer healing choice or a slower riskier but faster and more costly heal over time. Did we play the same game? I never had to think about that at all. I always had several dozen lifegems at any point in the game. I never had to think about health at any point in the game.
>>256064452 Which I personally find to be DaS2 biggest problem for me. I will never be challenged by a souls game again without it feeling cheap. I am too good and patient at the genre to fall into noob-traps, I don't sweat it when I get low HP, I don't bite off more than I can chew. So the only way for the game to challenge me is to throw 6 royal knights at me, or multi-bosses cause the camera doesn't support it.
Everything else is fine about DaS2 but jesus was that realization a shitty one.
>>256065075 >THE MORE THINGS YOUR STATS INFLUENCE THE DEEPER AND BETTER THE SYSTEM IS. That's completely fucking retarded though. Arbitrary stats don't make something 'deep', stats should have interesting and meaningful effects. Making the game feel like shit to play unless you put points into a stat is not 'deep'.
>>256064976 That is depth. You can wear armor and try to tank the game, or you can wear light armor and use your mobility to your advantage.
>>256065332 >Dark Souls II has bonfires, which removes the need for things like grass. No it doesn't. I explained this already
>It is for me. Because you aren't being thorough or live in pretend land where you're not being damaged on your first time through a level.
> Dark Souls makes great use of verticality in places, but making you take a bunch of damage and then giving you lifegems to heal it wouldn't add anything at all to the game Actually it does add plenty because falling is a common "Souls" platforming element. The more they can use it without worrying about depleting all your estus, the more complex and dangerous falling sequences they can demand of you.
> Like whether or not to push forward in hopes of finding a bonfire, or turn back and spend your souls but lose progress? No that's not what I mean because I was never so bad at the game that I ran out of estus before reaching a bonfire. I'd either die early or arrive with 1-2 in reserve.
> They space the islands so that you never need to get poisoned. That all depends on your inherent poison resist and willingness to sit around for 30 minutes to reduce the poison buildup. With Lifegems I wouldn't have to reset the level 2-3 times to explore it thoroughly and find all the items and enemies.
>Lifegems completely invalidate the interesting resource management that the Estus system creates. And that's okay because they deepen your choices in combat and open up more options for level design.
How is tying a basic game mechanic like evading (in this case, dodging) to a stat level good or "more hardcore" (since I'm a casual turd)? Your stats should affect things that are specific to the character, not basic gameplay.
>>256063379 And i'll never understand the legion of people who defend DaSII. DeS and DaS aren't even that old and das2 fans already talk like people who prefer those games are some kind of hipsters oldfags who can't appreciate progress. It's like some bizzare cult.
>>256065579 >the more things your stats influence, the better >this means I think we need 500 individual stats
>>256065675 >Making the game feel like shit to play unless you put points into a stat is not 'deep'. No it's just how RPGs with character building work. Again, go fuck off and play Skyrim if you don't want stats to influence your abilities.
>>256065829 It's not inherently a flaw. >that makes up for the fact that you you now never have to worry about your health. It does because of all the tension it adds to COMBAT. If you choose to use a lifegem and still take damage before you've had your chance... you die.
>>256066121 I'm getting more and more mad the more I hear idiot teenagers saying this shit.
YOU BOUGHT AND PLAYED AN RPG. RPGS INFLUENCE YOUR PROFICIENCY IN VARIOUS TASKS WITH STAT SYSTEMS.
DAS2 DEEPENED THE STAT SYSTEMS AND ROLE PLAYING ELEMENTS WITH ADP AND THE VIG/VIT/END CHANGES
>>256066565 >all the tension it adds to COMBAT Which, if you actually think about your item usage for 3 seconds, will be zero, since you'll save all your estus for the fights and your lifegems for afterwards.
>>256066565 Adp is a shitty stat. Deal with that. It makes rolls inconsistent and that is never a good thing in an rpg. >>the more things your stats influence, the better >this means I think we need 500 individual stats YES. The more, the better means exactly that. There is no upper limit and it would always improve.
Honestly you're even worse than that fucking Emerald Herald fag.
>>256066081 >No it doesn't. I explained this already And you did a shitty and unconvincing job of it. It's go a vaguely similar general structure, but the individual levels are not structured similarly at all.
>Because you aren't being thorough or live in pretend land where you're not being damaged on your first time through a level. I'm a completionist when it comes to these games, I've always made sure to pick up every item and explore everywhere. Having limited healing makes it a lot more interesting. If you disagree then you can kindle the bonfire, like I said.
>Actually it does add plenty because falling is a common "Souls" platforming element. The more they can use it without worrying about depleting all your estus, the more complex and dangerous falling sequences they can demand of you. No, the more they use it without considering your healing, the more meaningless it becomes.
>No that's not what I mean because I was never so bad at the game that I ran out of estus before reaching a bonfire. I'd either die early or arrive with 1-2 in reserve. Well then what kind of backtracking do you mean? Please, enlighten me.
>That all depends on your inherent poison resist and willingness to sit around for 30 minutes to reduce the poison buildup. With Lifegems I wouldn't have to reset the level 2-3 times to explore it thoroughly and find all the items and enemies. It depends on how well you prepare. They give you poison resistant armor that pretty much takes care of it, as well as plenty of moss. Anyway, disliking Blighttown isn't a reason to add lifegems, there are much better solutions.
>And that's okay because they deepen your choices in combat and open up more options for level design. Which is fucking bullshit. Adding a healing item doesn't deepen anything, it just makes things simpler. You don't have to worry about conserving things anymore, you can just pop lifegems all the time.
>>256067062 He didn't misunderstood shit. The other anon said the more stats you have the better. And that's a stupid statement to make. More is not always better. Elegance lies in making less feels like more.
>>256067454 Alright. Again that it is wrong because the logical conclusion of that would be a single stat that influences everything. The more, the better is still wrong. It would create game in which everyone has the same build. Although I guess he likes that because he likes DaS2 which has that thanks to Soul Memory.
>>256067454 I just expressed my self poorly. I'm just tired from that EH fag. The conclusion is the same though. Just because you have more things influencing your character through stats does not always means better. It's easy to say otherwise but if you stop 5 minutes and think, you'll see the stupidity in that statement. In fact, you just need to play DaSII.
>>256066853 >e you'll save all your estus for the fights and your lifegems for afterwards. Lifegems are a viable option during combat though. they allow you to walk while you break them and sometimes can be squeezed into opening that would have gotten an estus drinker killed.
>It makes rolls inconsistent No it doesn't. you're just stupid and mad that you don't understand the underlying systems.
Slow characters don't need any agility and fast ones need to get around 90-100. That's all you need to know.
> that is never a good thing in an rpg. Oh are you trying to be a big boy and hold the game to RPG standards now?
> The more, the better means exactly that. No it doesn't. The more things my stats influence the better the game is means that having stats influence lots of things makes them good. That's one of the biggest strengths DaS has. the various stats have varied influences on many different things.
>>256067026 I didn't farm anything. You can't REALLY farm in DaS2
I just bought them in stacks from Melentia.
>>256066881 >No, the more they use it without considering your healing, the more meaningless it becomes. Are you retarded? It's a skill testing moment with a death penalty for failure. If you need to consider health you can't do that very often. >Well then what kind of backtracking do you mean? I mean in places like Lower Blighttown where I had to turn back and hit the bonfire merely because the poison buildup had depleted all my Estus. >disliking Blighttown isn't a reason to add lifegems, there are much better solutions. You're implying there's a problem to be fixed. There's not. Lifegems are just an expansion and addition just like all the changes to Estus >. Adding a healing item doesn't deepen anything Choices deepen things. Gems are consumed faster and don't force you to stand still. I've already explained how gems added a new layer of depth to the combat
>>256068015 >Taking something to the extreme doesnt automatically mean your right. Then "the more the better" is wrong. >Your way we would get a literal rehash of DaS1 since you dont want anything to change. No. I loved DeS and loved DaS1 and they are different. DaS2 is the only one I didn't like as much.
>>256068052 >Are you retarded? It's a skill testing moment with a death penalty for failure. If you need to consider health you can't do that very often. Why on Earth would they do that often? That's an awful thing to keep coming across. It's much more interesting when you need to risk a jump for an item or a shortcut once in a while at the cost of health.
>I mean in places like Lower Blighttown where I had to turn back and hit the bonfire merely because the poison buildup had depleted all my Estus. It seems like you just don't like Blighttown to me. Lifegems are not the solution to this.
>You're implying there's a problem to be fixed. There's not. Lifegems are just an expansion and addition just like all the changes to Estus What? You're the one who said there was a problem, and that lifegems were a good solution. They're not, that's what I said. Yes, lifegems are an addition, a shitty one.
>Choices deepen things. Gems are consumed faster and don't force you to stand still. I've already explained how gems added a new layer of depth to the combat Well you're wrong about it, arbitrary decisions that mean you don't have to make harder decisions or manage your resources carefully do not add depth.
You're really grasping at straws now, and you're not even addressing all of my points anymore.
>>256068332 It's all me. I refuse to back down to idiots. If people are rude or spew dumb things at me without reasoning or factual support I enjoy making myself feel smart by tearing their opinions and arguments down
You're allowed whatever opinions you want, but I'm allowed to attack them if you post them. I've been doing so because I enjoy forcing people to confront their opinions and assumptions. Sometimes it gets through to people and I have somebody admit he's seeing things in a new way now.
>>256068757 If you deliberately went all the way down to the TotG, and then climbed back up then you had that much before Sens, and you still had to kindle every bonfire. That's not something a first-time player is going to do. Dark Souls' system wasn't perfect, but it was the best of the three games.
>>256068661 >Why on Earth would they do that often? That's an awful thing to keep coming across. why don't you ask Fromsoft? It's been a major theme in all three games. >It seems like you just don't like Blighttown to me. Nah it's cool, it just highlights the weakness of being limited to having only so many healing tools carried at once. >You're the one who said there was a problem I guess that was a poor word choice. It's a weakness but not a problem. >manage your resources carefully time is a very important resource during combat. gems and estus are defined by differences they have in speed when looked at during combat.
>>256068780 Nope. I'd rather you just behave better on 4chan. Maybe being afraid that the petty autistic NEET who enjoys to argue for the sake of arguing will cause you to consider posting with a higher level of thought and reasoning.
>>256068325 It's alright. Just for the sake of explaining why i don't like it: dodging is a matter of pattern recognition and timing. When you put a stat related to i-frames you're essentially creating that inconsistency. So you'll need several characters with the same ADP to guarantee the dodging to be at some specific moment for each enemy.
That's terrible design to me. I understand why they put it, but the consequences are terrible.
>>256068757 >You had 20 estus before sens. If you bothered to take on pinwheel.
One of the biggest differences in DaS is that you couldn't passively get too much healing. I accidentally gathered up tons of grass in DeS and got 99 lifegems in DaSII before I even beat the Lost Sinner. In DaS, you had to kill a boss and constantly use humanity at every bonfire you came across.
>>256069221 I'm not that guy or any other guy but can you actually explain WHY that's terrible design, or why different characters having different timing is bad? Would an agile character not be better at dodging than a tank? It makes perfect sense to me.
>>256069163 That's nonsense, there's nothing to support that.
>>256069178 >why don't you ask Fromsoft? It's been a major theme in all three games. Except it hasn't.
>Nah it's cool, it just highlights the weakness of being limited to having only so many healing tools carried at once. Except you're talking about a mechanic that only exists in that one area. The solution to that isn't to add lifegems, which come with a bevy of problems themselves, it's to fix the damn mechanic. It's not really a problem anyway, as we've discussed.
>ime is a very important resource during combat. gems and estus are defined by differences they have in speed when looked at during combat. You lose so much more than you gain though. There's no more resource or HP management.
What this guy is arguing is a different kind of obtuseness. It's the kind that changes several things surreptitiously, as in you actually have to count frames to realize you're dodging is now more effective. He thinks it's better and we should "deal with it." I don't think more is better. I also don't think that tying basic and general game mechanics to a stat level is a good idea.
>>256069178 >who enjoys to argue for the sake of arguing You don't. Anyone who loves arguing is great at assuming the other point of view. You don't. You haven't moved a single inch argument wise on either argument. Arguing with you is as boring as arguing with a wall. > will cause you to consider posting with a higher level of thought and reasoning. You're not improving this thread. Most sane people have already given up to argue with you because you are incapable of empathy.
>>256069504 But i explained in my post. The timing to dodge is broke because of the relation to ADP. In DaS, doesn't matter if you're mage or tank, if you recognized the pattern and timed right, you would dodge. In DaS II, if you recognized and timed the attack, you would suffer if you didn't had the ADP stat at least equal to your last character. That's the issue it creates.
>>256070348 And they can't in Dark Souls thanks to the different classes of rolling. This is a much more natural way of solving that problem, and it creates three distinct classes of roll instead of a vague scale.
>>256070348 That's the main question that i thing why me and you and all this debate goes around with. I consider dodging as a skillshot. DaS is a realtime action rpg on top of things. So transform what was a matter of skill from the player to some stat related issue. This is bad design to me. DeS and DaS managed to make the classes different from eachother without creating this problem.
>>256069143 I've avoided Other M entirely based on critical reception. Metroid Prime is one of my favorite games of all time and Skyward Sword is almost unplayable because of how forced and annoying the motion controls are. Fuck flying, fuck stamina gauges and fucking aiming my sword.
>>256069602 >There aren't falling segments in Stonefang and Blighttown and Catacombs unless you forgot? It's more common than moving platforms in Souls games. >You lose so much more than you gain though. Well, you're given less Estus for the earlier parts of the game so at that point you're REALLY worrying about managing your 2-4 sips. There's still management but with a more concrete sense of growth over time. Having one slowly expanding main pool of estus is FAR superior to kindling. Don't forget how DaS2 wants you to manage your equipment durability more than the other games do.
>>256070063 >Anyone who loves arguing is great at assuming the other point of view. I can see the point of view of an idiot. That doesn't make it any less dumb. >You're not improving this thread. Ask me if I care
Armor changes how far you roll. With heavy armor you will not make it out of range of large attacks. With light armor you will roll much farther and be able to avoid more attacks.
ADP only effects how much of the roll actually works. Without ADP you roll has a smaller success window. No ADP and heavy armor means you have the smallest amount of time to roll away and also not go far enough to avoid the entire attack. No ADP and light armor means you still have a small success window but because your roll is almost twice as far you actually have twice as much of a dodge window. You travel farther in less frames.
Adding ADP to the previous two situations does nothing but give the player a larger window of escape. A heavy roll is STILL a tiny roll with no distance so you are STILL in more danger trying to roll as opposed to rolling large distances in light armor.
>>256071442 Yes but I'm saying they were able to use them MORE in Dark Souls 2 because of lifegems and that's a good thing. they're tense and skillbased moments. even the best Souls players still fuck up a falling jump or die trying to get the dull ember.
>>256071696 They don't do it more though. If anything they do it less. It's really just the well in Majula, where there's a bonfire at the top, halfway down, and at the bottom. You said the punishment for failure was death, so lifegems don't matter anyway.
>the Pit >Various parts of the Gutter >Brightstone Cove near all the white sorcerers and later with the Spiderweb room >All over the fucking place in Shulva/Dragon Sanctum
> You said the punishment for failure was death Yes that's right >so lifegems don't matter anyway. Are you 12? Is this the extent of your reasoning abilities? Lifegems matter because their inclusion allows the devs to send you off damaging falls much more often. When they can only count on you having 5 estus, they're not gonna send you off more than maybe 2 damaging falls in a row.
>>256072401 >Are you 12? Is this the extent of your reasoning abilities? Lifegems matter because their inclusion allows the devs to send you off damaging falls much more often. When they can only count on you having 5 estus, they're not gonna send you off more than maybe 2 damaging falls in a row. I meant that if you're going to do die if you miss a fall (like in Majula), then it doesn't matter how much healing you have. This whole thing is specious anyway, lifegems don't make these falls more interesting, and it's a ridiculous reason to include something like that.
>>256072762 >I meant that if you're going to do die if you miss a fall (like in Majula), then it doesn't matter how much healing you have. I know but I only mentioned dying because you tried to say falling wasn't skillfull or dangerous and it's both >, lifegems don't make these falls more interesting No, they just enable liberal usage of the concept of falling sequences.
>>256073246 >But look at what they were able to do in the other games without lifegems. So? >I really doubt that anybody felt limited when designing the levels in DeS and DaS. so you're saying the teams for those two games never ever stopped and considered the impact their level designs had on the resources they can assume the player has? You're calling them amateurs who just slapped "neat" stuff together haphazardly and drenched it in atmosphere and 10/10 voice acting?
Wait, now that I actually read that final bit that aloud.. that sorta sounds accurate.
>>256073695 In fact the more I think about it maybe that's why people hate on DaS2. It feels like a conscious effort to make a good souls game. DeS and DaS are good in a way that almost feels accidental or unintentional.
ADP is indeed kind of a dumb stat. You're pretty much forced to get at least 20 of it. It effects shield up speed (still way slower than DaS1 even with max speed), estus drinking speed, boosts AGL and does a ton of weird, undocumented things. AGL adds another layer to the stupidity where a level in ADP isn't always a gain in AGL. Since every 5 AGL is 1 invincibility frame on your dodge roll (except where it adds 2 at some arbitrary point, I think 100), it takes roughly 7-8 levels in ADP to give an invincibility on your dodge roll.
And since your dodge roll actually leaves your hurtbox behind until the roll is finished, you're basically forced to level ADP regardless of build. Because it goes a long way toward making your character functional and not clunky as shit. The hitboxes aren't all that bad in DaS2 (except when they are), your roll is just misleading and very unreliable until you level, because rolling is effectively just standing still until you have a lot of invinc frames. ADP is basically the "this makes your character not play like a clunky piece of shit" stat.
Man DaS2 isn't that bad but holy shit they messed like, every finer detail.
>>256074245 >You're pretty much forced to get at least 20 of it. No you aren't. >And since your dodge roll actually leaves your hurtbox behind until the roll is finished, you're basically forced to level ADP regardless of build. No you aren't. >it goes a long way toward making your character functional and not clunky as shit It's very viable and common to just stack Vig/End and just guard absolutely everything and RUN when you can't guard. >>256074245 >ADP is basically the "this makes your character not play like a clunky piece of shit" stat. Exactly. Shockingly enough, an RPG is asking you for some stat points to be a nimble footed and quick handed fighter.
I'll say it again and again, go play skyrim if you don't want stats.
>>256074032 > It feels like a conscious effort to make a good souls game. DeS and DaS are good in a way that almost feels accidental or unintentional. You're sort of right. Not the good part but the souls part.
DaS2 was bad because they focused on making a souls game while the other two tried to be good games first. All this "This is Dark Souls" "haha you will die and die over again" "let's make this boss harder instead of good that is what people expect in a souls game"
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