Serious question, from an indie dev to /v/.
I know that Kickstarter gets a lot of hate on /v/ because some projects don't deliver as promised or don't deliver at all, but what is a better alternative for an indie developer who needs funding to make his game?
Do you think games don't cost money to make? Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea? Do you think money grows on trees?
Please, if you think Kickstarter is "Jewish", suggest a better alternative.
The better alternative is to have something to show off.
Kickstarter gets a lot of hate for being a platform in which ideaguys try to swipe money from and then are never heard from again. If you've got a decent demo/prototype/alpha/whatever showing off that you're actually capable of completing the project to go along with your Kickstarter, there will be no problem.
Also /v/ hates Kickstarter because /v/ hates pre-ordering, which is what a video game kickstarter essentially is.
So if I already have a (free) playable demo prepared so you can tell exactly what the finished product will be like, then it's okay to make a Kickstarter so I can finish the rest of the game?
What do you mean "it's okay". You can make a Kickstarter whenever you want, some people are always going to hate it and some are always going to be fine with it. It's obviously a good idea to have something to show off though.
>but what is a better alternative for an indie developer who needs funding to make his game?
Get a job fucktard.
This. One million times this. Let's say I wanted to open a cafe, or start a band, or start manufacturing backpacks. It's my passion. I can't ask others for money, I need to either be loaded or go dick in hand to a bank and get a loan. This is no different.
Do be an ideas guy and actually have a demo. No deviant-tier work. Also it might be could to layout your game plan since most failures come from mismanagment of funds or unrealistic expectations. You'll never know how long a project will take until you complete a similar one yourself. Problems will definitely rise and need to be taken to account.
There is always the Patreon route where you get paid monthly or by what part you complete by people who support you.
I already have a job and it goes towards rent, groceries, gas money, student loans, and other costs of living.
Or do you think indie developers don't need to eat, sleep, or use money for anything other than development?
Kickstarter was fine when it was truly just indie people getting their games funded by asking for a relatively small amount. Tim Shafer ruined everything though. Double Fine is not an indie company, no matter what that fat shit said. Once people saw that it was acceptable to ask for an obscene amount of money for a flash game and then go further to ask for more money later and delay it repeatedly, that's when Kickstarter became Kikestarter. Now people will make one for literally anything and ask for obscene amounts, and they usually reach their goals.
/v/ still won't trust you because it's become common, even with a demo or years of beta play, for devs to change the core gameplay at the last minute and then run off with everyone's money when players throw a shitfit.
In the end, the only thing people will trust is a good final product.
>I already have a job and it goes towards rent, groceries, gas money, student loans, and other costs of living.
That's life for everyone else you fucking autist. You want better than that? Work more, save more, so you can start your money making side project.
Jesus christ, the shit you read in this fucking japanimation image board.
>Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea?
If you don't believe in your own capabilities and ideas why are you asking people to do so when you can only offer promises in exchange?
You don't sound like a developer but a producer anyway. You need the money to hire people to make the game for you.
Whatever. You would be stupid NOT to use kickstarter. It is free money and you don't really have to deliver anything.
I hate the prospect of KS on a conceptual and contractual level. If you really want to support my game development then download one my mobile games and click on the ads. You'll be funding my development for free and you'll get a free game in the process.
>Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea?
I mean if you're confident enough that your product is a success that you're willing to take other people's money, yes I do fucking expect you to risk your own savings as well.
At least it'd show you're serious about it.
With a vido game kickstarter, you're not taking investment money from an investor who expects to either lose their money entirely or get a cut of your profit. You're promising a complete product for the price of a complete product.
You can't invest on Kickstarter projects. You give them your money and they can do whatever they want with it and give you nothing in return. That's begging, not looking for investors.
Loans are retarded and would end up costing way more than whatever he asked from a Kickstarter.
Would be better for a couple hundred people to toss their weekly pizza fund in once than for him to take a loan.
I wonder why nobody made a kikstarter like spinoff which provides backers with profit cuts instead of handling it as donations?
Why shoud the devs alone profit from future pofits (since we live in the digital age and the created product will possibly be availible a lifetime and longer) while risking literally nothing at all?
There's this mythical thing called "a job". We here on /v/ don't have any, but I've heard they're a good source of income.
Live reddit AMA:
Freedom Planet just published game on Steam:
Many others pending.
Like most things /v/ complains about, Kickstarter isn't inherently a bad thing. People just often use it in either a stupid or exploitative manner. If you genuinely need help getting a project off the ground, go ahead and give it a shot.
>Do you think games don't cost money to make? Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea? Do you think money grows on trees?
Holy shit calm the fuck down.
Hey why don't you do what every other indie dev did before Kickstarter?
Man the fuck up, work your ass off, and make your fucking game. Jesus.
You're an entitled fuck, aren't you?
Kickstarter is fine, it's just a platform that allows someone with a product to meet potential investors. It's no different than investing in anything else, you either get a return on your investment or you don't.
>$35k a month living expenses
op why can't you live on $2k a month like a normal person?
I've got schizobucks
and hell yes I will enjoy my mediocre life.
Roboschizo for lyfe
Pic related. It's me up to 9 times a month.
Fuk yer job.
>You give them your money and they can do whatever they want with it and give you nothing in return
Except the game and whatever else you get for donating.
What do you get from investing in stocks? They can do whatever they want with that money and there's no guarantee you'll get anything in return.
Serious answer, from one indie game developer to another.
Get a real job, and make your games for free on your free time. Like Pixel did. If you're a good developer, you should be able to get a programming job elsewhere anyway, and you'll have free time to make your game.
> Do you think games don't cost money to make?
They don't. They cost time. They only cost money if you're hiring people or if you expect to survive off them, which really don't fit the purpose of indie development.
> Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea?
No, because if you're doing that, you aren't trying to be an "indie" developer. You're trying to start a business.
You fucking "indie" developers all jump in expecting to make the next Cave Story and get your goldmine, and completely forget the actual point of indie development. The point of indie development is that ANYBODY can make games, not that teams of people can be given piles of cash to do something that's supposed to be a hobby. You hammering in the idea that people need huge amounts of money to develop video games is retarded, and undermines the point of independent development entirely.
tl;dl: Shut the fuck up; stop bitching about money, and go make your goddamn game, you whiny bitch. I hate being associated with you whiners who are in it for perks, and who don't actually love programming (if you don't love programming, you have no place in game development).
>If you really want to support my game development then download one my mobile games and click on the ads
i was pretty upset when i finished writing my android tool and found out i needed to have an adwall to try selling it on google's appstore
Only use E-begging as a last resort. Gather your team, gain real experience in the game industry, get a full time job, build a resume, make a budget. It's a long and tedious process, but it'll create a better outcome than what sloth provides.
>it's become common, even with a demo or years of beta play, for devs to change the core gameplay at the last minute
What's become common is the developers releasing a "final game" with only the most minimal improvements from the earliest alpha demo they showed off.
They can't do whatever they want. There are tons of rules, and they mostly work because there aren't a hundred Enrons. Kickstarter is not any more of an investment than buying a dildo on ebay is an investment. At most you get what you paid for.
I think the selfishness concept people assume about Kickstarter is that it removes the concept of "investment" from production.
Yes, things cost money to make, but they also make money when you're done. Investing money into a product meant taking a risk for an eventual reward.
With Kickstarter you're getting investors to reduce your personal risk level, but keeping the rewards to yourself. And no, the privilege of buying your product as a consumer is not an investment reward.
What I'd consider a genuine Kickstarter success isn't a developer's project that's completed using it, but whether or not they're able to do a follow up project without using Kickstarter.
>Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea?
Yes, you fucking retard. If your idea isn't good enough to stake your own fucking money on maybe it's not that good an idea.
>Do you think games don't cost money to make?
Yes. What are your costs other than keeping yourself alive?
If you're hiring people to make parts of the game for you then you're not just making a game but starting a business (and aren't a truDev).
Keeping yourself alive and a computer powered up is really quite cheap. Leech off the government, your parents, get a job for a while, whatever. After a year of work you'll have something you can at least sell early access to. Or you'll have a pile of shit and will learn your place.
An investor gets a monetary return.
You know how some places, you make a donation and you get a cookie? That's exactly what this is.
Kickstarter is a donation platform, not an investment platform.
it's always common for people to try and scam money though
i've never felt confident enough in a kickstarter for vidya to actually donate. the few i've given money to have been established companies trying to shore up money for different versions (physical or english)
So kikestarter is like craigslist. Maybe you get that game you wanted, maybe you get raped by 60 niggers.
No, purchase implies that you give a certain amount of money for a pre-decided product return. A purchase implies nothing as to how the money is spent, only that you are getting back exactly what is promised for the set price.
An "investment" is you putting money into something because you expect it to get you back the money (or save you the equivalent value) plus a bit for profit on your end.
If there's no opportunity for profit, it's not an investment.
Another indie dev here,
I don't dislike Kickstarter. I just think it's been misused by a lot of devs. Unfortunately a lot of gamers are stupid and easily give their money away, so this is just a natural progression of pre-order DLC and season passes.
The problem is that instead of viewing a project as a way to support a project, many view it as the newest way to pre-order a game. Many project organizers recognize this and have deliberately advertised the product rather than the project, which is kind of dickish.
I'm someone who thinks that pre-ordering is bad consumer behaviour that doesn't select for quality, and that early access is damaging to a player's game experience, so I'll never do those things with my games. This is kind of why I think Kickstarter is unhealthy for games
>only that you are getting back exactly what is promised for the set price
But as we've seen with game development, you don't always get back what you put money towards.
It's almost as if there's an element of risk involved in putting money towards a kickstarter
That is a scam. Showing an early alpha, then harvesting tens of thousands of dollars, and then releasing the same demo minimally changed as the final game is certainly a scam.
The only kickstarters that have ever looked worth it to me are Shantae and Planetary Annihilation, and solely because they both involve full development teams that are familiar with working together, have a history of putting out working products, and can self-manage.
Mighty Number 9 would be a secure project if Inafune wasn't complete shit at time and money management.
Make a kickstarter when you have something to show for it.
Just don't make it like "Oh it's gonna be like this and that, and it's gonna be so cool just like the [old school genre] games of old! Plz give money."
if you want to make a donation system complete the game and then ask for soundtrack money, or sell it on greenlight finished.
early access is just as bad as kikestarter because devs use it for cocaine instead of developing the game.
Exactly. I said opportunity, as in potential.
If the project you put $100 into makes 20 million dollars and puts back a phenomenal game, it's still not an investment, because you never earned your money back.
Investment is defined as "the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value. "
Indie dev here, I'm doing it all on my own money. And I'll probably give away codes to /v/ for helping me with my ideas if it ever gets on steam.
I don't believe kickstarter is necessary 90% of the time, unless you are going for consoles and you need money for publishing (which is kinda stupid if you don't already have a fanbase). Indie game development should be a hobby first, and a way to make money second. I feel like you're just using people to fund a project that you have no idea will even end up selling well, but it's not your problem because it's not your money, right?
What would you even need money for? Can you buy time? Not really. If you're just going to pay people to do a better job, it's not truly ''indie'' anymore.
Fuck you, everything's a scam because I said so.
>used as ammo
I'd have to agree with you there. Kickstarter places a huge focus on just funnelling money away from consumers. A lot of the time, what is actually being sold isn't even clear. The game is wrapped in buzzwords and marketing terms. This is why consumers make terrible investors. A good investor can't be somebody who is being marketed a product. A good investor is somebody who can discern how successful a project will be, completely separate from what the finished product actually is.
Personally, I'm disgusted that indie game development and money are even being so tightly linked, outside of the final sale of the game. It's sad that these are considered "independently" developed despite being fully funded and supported by a plug-in for a publisher.
>An investment does not necessitate that your return is in the form of money
Yes, it does.
If you invest in a gold mine, you're getting money back. Even if it is initially in the form of lumps of gold, the point is you can readily convert it into money.
Good luck converting your Yogventures Steam code into more money than you pledged.
No, then it's a purchase. An investment is about money. You either make a monetary return, or a capital return which saves or makes at least as much money elsewhere as your investment.
All minutia aside, an investment is only successful if you have at least as much money or more as you did prior to the investment as a result of the funded project, which applies to none of kickstarter, unless you use the result of the project to directly make money.
Wait, you think kickstarter and investors are the same thing? Are you fucking daft? Investors have a stake in the company/developer. Kickstarter donators (MAY) get a reward for giving money and (MAYBE) the product.
If you backed a Kickstarter by someone with no credentials you're a fucking idiot and deserve everything bad that happens to you. The only return I expect and wanted is the game, and I've gotten that with all the Kickstarters I've backed.
It's the element of risk that makes it an investment.
If I were to go to the store and buy a game, I know exactly what I'm getting and it's guaranteed to be that thing
With Kickstarter there is no guarantee. The project might never get finished and I'll walk away with nothing
They don't have to. An investor's job is to make money.
AAA game development is dogshit, but one thing they've got over Kickstarter is the finished project actually gets released more than half the time.
A purchase is when you buy a product, kickstart is not buying a product it is investing in a company. You are not guaranteed any sort of return, like investing in anything there is a risk that you will simply lose your money.
even selling early access is better than kickstarter
but that would require you to have something partially made already
>not spending any possible free time you have on gamedev because you aren't actually that dedicated
If it's an investment, it's an investment for chumps.
An investment where there's absolutely no chance of you making a return. The only thing you get is the kind of freebies that a real investor would be given to butter them up.
Getting a job and funding it yourself
what? you think money grows on trees, do you except other people to spend their life savings on your game, don't you think people need money for themselves rather than spending on a lazy indie dev
Isn't that just a downgraded version of Bunny Must Die with Castlevania assets ?
By all means, go ahead and beg on the internet for money to fund your videogame equivalent of a unicorn farm that will never live up to the expectations you set for your backers. Anybody who gives you their money is an idiot.
>It's the element of risk that makes it an investment.
no. that alone just makes it a gamble.
investment means you invest in a project now and are given a share of the projects revenue later.
I think Kickstarter is okay but asking "how else to I fund my game" is a pretty dumb question.
Think about how people made games before Kickstarter for fuck's sake.
So, either get a job in the industry and be a slave to a AAA company like EA, climb the corporate ladder, and maybe break free years from now... or bite the bullet and make your game during the little free time you have after working your full-time job.
If you think that dedicating your entire life to this project is worth the return then take out a loan, maybe.
Or, like everyone else said, give the audience a little proof that this game of yours will grow into something instead of just being put on the back burner forever, and maybe crowd-funding will find you success
Well, now you're just getting into semantics.
What real-life investing is is giving money, hoping whoever I gave the money to can make it into more money, and getting more money back.
Your fairy-tale "investing" is "if it makes me happy then I got a profit :3"
Are you a cute trap? You could be my pet and I fund your game.
No, I'm saying that if I got $30 worth of value out of $15 spent, it's a good investment, whether or not that value is something I can turn into hard cash is irrelevant.
Investments are for future returns and expected to grow in some way. It's not something you buy now and use in the exact same form as it is bought.
>To be fair, simply enjoying the game is a fair bit of value return
True, but an investment of any sort is monetary, otherwise any purchase is an investment, because you never knowingly spend money on something that's not worth the money that it costs.
An investment is an investment because you end up making more money from it, directly or indirectly, than you spent on it.
Buying a lawnmower to mow your lawn is not an investment.
Buying a lawnmower to mow lawns for money--hoping to make at least the cost of the lawnmower back--is an investment, because you get returns. Specifically, that's an investment in capital.
>whether or not that value is something I can turn into hard cash is irrelevant.
No, it's entirely relevant. Value that can't be measured is not value in business terms.
It's not $30 worth of value if it doesn't either directly get you $30, save you $30 elsewhere, or give you the means to make $30 profit through other action. An investment involves capital return. If you get an object back that doesn't earn you money, it is not capital.
This is economics 101 shit, which is required for most any Associate degree. Did any of you faggots even go to community college?
>6 months later
Semantics could not be delivered.
We were busy arguing over SJWs and Internet Celebrities to get to the semantics.
We kind of lost our argument on the way to the semantics.
Here's a free irony to replace what you paid for.
We can even give you a free shitpost, no charge.
Why you are asking this question?
No seriously, why are you asking this board what their opinions are? You might think that because it's anonymous you're going to get an honest answer, and to be quite frank you will, but all this really does is reveal /v/ as the living embodiment of entitled gamers everywhere.
Most of the people on this board have never actually created anything more worthwhile than a 5-dollar-footlong and literally have no idea the ups and downs of video game development. They want you to be destitute while making the game and to do it as a hobby instead of a full time job. They want no affordances for the inevitable dead ends and redo's that come with the territory of creating stuff. They want the game done on their own schedule and don't understand why deadlines can slip, sometimes drastically. They want the game balanced to their precise expectations. They want the game to be at a specific price point. They want free updates in perpituity. They want free DLC. And they are fickle, they will abandon you at the first slight, either real or perceived, no matter if it was something in your control or not.
If you seriously think you have an idea worth creating, who the fuck cares what /v/ thinks and milk the fucking Kickstarter fad for all it's worth. For once people are using it to put their money where their mouth is and say "Yes, I am willing to pay to see this game come to fruition".
>living embodiment of entitled gamers
You do know the word "entitled" means "having ownership", right?
If I'm entitled, it means that I rightfully am the owner of what I have.
I hate how game journalism has somehow morphed the word "entitled" to mean "to have a false sense of entitlement".
Am I crazy for wanting to develop a indie game, but NOT wanting to devote my entire life and personal savings towards it?
Does that really make me an entitled indie dev?
Do you guys even listen to yourselves speak?
They've never created anything worthwhile in their entire lives. I told you, don't listen to these idiots. If you want realtalk, talk to other indie devs - people who know what it's like and can empathize and maybe even offer meaningful suggestions.
I would do that too. I already planned to have a playable demo prepared before I made a Kickstarter. In addition to that, I'll also lay out where every dollar in the budget is going, to explain why I need the funding and what it goes towards.
People use kickstarter for cafes and backpacks all the time.
The thing is they have a prototype for the backpack or goods to offer at the cafe in exchange. Not ideas.
And they're also not telling you the cafe is going to be floating in the sky and they'll just figure out how to make that happen along the way.
And they certainly don't turn around and sell the backpacks for pennies weeks after you backed them for $40 bucks.
If anything, your examples are exactly what kickstarter should be used for, not video games.
>Developers should have to live in destitution, because I want to play video games. Nobody deserves to live above the poverty line if they're an indie dev!
Do you read your messages before you send them?
If the donation model is so similar, why don't you do that instead of Kickstarter?
Answer: Toady actually has something people can play, and you have an idea you'll give up on in two months after blowing through your cash.
Why don't you try his model and set up a website just like his, but without a playable game, and see how many donations you get?
Isn't this a problem with the idiots who actually donated to problematic Kickstarters? If the game is being backed by recognizable gaming industry vets, I don't have a problem with donating. If the game is already half done and they need a little extra to push it to completion, same thing. If the game is just a couple of concept sketches done by nobodies, why on earth would you give them your money?
Don't throw the Elite Dangerous baby out with the Yogsventures bathwater.
I've yet to see a game from kickstarter that hasn't very quickly gone for cheaper than backers had to pay to get it.
Conversely almost every worthwhile kickstarter for tangible goods offers a portion off on the product. It shows that they just need money to get the gears going and have given you an incentive to help them out with that.
That's a shit ton more prevalent for video games and ones that are actually just donations to a cause of some sort. Most other ones just have donation tiers for people that want to throw in a couple bucks and track the progress but can't take advantage of the goods offered.
And however the fuck you want to word this shit, I fail to see what that has to do with me saying that kickstarter is better for tangible products over digital media.
>Do you expect all indie devs to stake their personal life savings on a game idea?
Yes, because then they'll actually be careful with the project and if they fuck up it's their own damn fault. If they aren't willing to put their own cash on the line then they probably aren't confident of their product.