The min-maxing of Runes and masteries for specific situations means that if you absolutely understand the intricacies of any given matchup you can gain a significant advantage over someone who doesn't.
That's why we have things like the Meta to tell us what 15 champions/runes/summoner skills/comps/items are useful this season! Thank you e-celebs, may Riot force rules based on your playstyles even more in the future.
>>253924664 Challenge Pro Mode. Just a mod for Quake III Arena that focuses on things like air control, jumping physics, instant weapon switching. Turns it in to a totally different game, still the gold standard for competitive play. Fuck gookclick and ASSFAGGOTS, CPM is where it's at.
A reasonable way to answer this is to compare what a TAS can achieve to the actual game then see how much of it is even viable. No sense calling games with 50 1 frame input shit high skill ceilings when no human is going to do that ever.
>>253923895 This must be a troll post. I play LoL (2k wins, plat elo) and would admit at the drop of a hat that its skill ceiling isnt that high. Dota is higher. Runes and masteries making it complex bullshit, you just setup like 6 rune pages and maybe 8 mastery pages (ad jungler, adc, tank jungler, ap carry, tanky ad, support) and they apply to almost all champions
To answer OP, fighting games, RTS games, and certain FPS like cs and quake
>>253925827 Chess is basically all of the bad elements of fighting games that no one likes put into one game.
You do something, the opponent now has to know exactly what your potential options are off that something and what options he is now denied, and if he doesn't he has now lost the game. Continue this over and over until one player misjudges his options and loses, or if both players play perfectly the player who got the first advantage wins.
It's basically just like shitty airdasher okizeme fighters but the bad shit is the whole game
>>253926583 Only bads say that anyway, the reason 3s isn't legit is BECAUSE of the parry system. It would be good if it was implemented well, but it isn't. It is mainly an option select tool that allows high level play to turn into ridiculous situations.
It is very easy, and good players do it all the time, to create a situation like
>if they dp/press a button, I will parry low and super them >if they block I will throw them >if they throw tech, I will also tech the throw and we are in a neutral position
That is a situation where there are only 3 outcomes and none of them end with the attacker losing. And that is very easy to do and happens all the time. Any 'omg what a read' parries you see top level players do are usually something like that and not a read at all.
And that is why people who can't play 3s think it's great, and most people good at it hate it.
Brood War for sure. Most people who started with SC2 would get fucking annihilated on competitive Brood War.
Just learning the matchups and what build counters what is a project in itself. Once you have that down you have to work on managing several different bases while constantly making units, scouting, poking your opponent's defense, reading their moves, and defending your own shit. All at the same time. Watching a pro Brood War player in first person will make you dizzy and sick.
Starcraft 2 cut out a lot of the bullshit technical limitations. Having your whole army on one hotkey is a lot easier than having to use 5-6 hotkeys like you did in Brood War. Also the ability to put all your production buildings on a single hotkey really changed the game.
>>253927905 Brood War is up there, but honestly a lot of it is game knowledge. Build orders, timing pushes, map knowledge. In terms of execution most of it is fairly easy - get your macro game locked down, learn how to get a good concave going, micro your siege tanks without leaving your entire line vulnerable.
I'm not shitting on it at all, JD makes my dick hard, but there's so much bullshit with map choice and cheesy build orders that I wouldn't put it on the top. Top three, definitely, but not number one.
I dont know any other game with the same parry system only some snk games use the just defend one but its not even close to be the same thing. And yes the parry system makes the mind games really exiting.
>>253928754 In a very abstract sense, that is what chess is, but that's not what I meant.
I rather mean it is sheer knowledge. You are required to recognise the opening and what it is good for and the appropriate response. If you cannot do this, you cannot play chess. This means, much like SC2, you need to memorise a huge number of openings and responses to be a viable player.
As the game goes on, one player will get an advantage and progressively deny the other player options, while the losing player will attempt to avoid losing them. This requires the player to recognise strategies and situations from memory, though this becomes less and less realistically possible as the game goes on and diverges from set play (Until the very end, when it becomes pure set play again).
Nonetheless, chess is very much a game of tightening the noose on the other player with the intent of them eventually hanging themselves. When two master players play however, they generally do not hang themselves as easily, which is why white advantage is a much more significant factor there.
FUCK :( I got home as fast as I could, looked at the clock, went to make some pasta and before you know it an hour has passed and I'll miss the match. And I won't be able to see the Grand finals because it's around the time I have to get up and go to work.
Was it any good? Don't tell me who won, please, I'll catch it on youtube or something.
>>253930501 Aaaaaah you fucker :) It wouldn't surprise me if Tox won, though. Guy was a fucking beast against Rapha, but mostly Rapha (and Evil) played really poorly, missed a lot of easy shots and weren't focused enough in the match.
If you get to watch them, I hope you'll be at the edge of your seat.
>>253923551 I would say games that have teams and teamwork are inherently going to have much higher skill caps. Working as part of a team, both during and outside matches, has a huge skillset that is pretty much impossible to fully 'master.'
I say this even though I really prefer to play competitive 1v1, and I enjoy spectating competitive 1v1 more than team based games. I mean, c'mon, head to head two people putting their very best effort forward is exciting, understandable and a true test of an isolated skillset. But your question is about skill ceilings, and I just don't think any game that doesn't have teamwork will be able to compare in that aspect.
>>253932130 >and almost nobody does competitive 2v2/3v3/5v5 RTS so what is there to compare to I would say you could compare it to objective based, team FPS games. Competitive CS they play Bomb Diffusional game mode, right? A game of that contains many rounds and because of the multiple rounds and money aspect to the game it has a lot of depth to it.
But I have no idea about team based RTS. But to reiterate on what I said, I think you could introduce team play into any sort of game, and the 'skill ceiling' could go up substantially. That does not make it more fun to play or watch or anything, it just introduces a teamwork skillset which is a huge and complicated skillset.
Maybe it's just me, but the moment you can shoot people because you know exactly where they spawn, how long it will take them to move to your point and being able to kill them before they can even do anything about it - that's a killing flaw in game design.
That's just me thinking out loud though. Maybe I don't get the idea behind competitive Q3, not saying I'm better than them. Just pointing out a pretty big flaw.
>>253933423 not entirely true in ARMA the skill comes from mass unit movement, placement, resource management ECT.
while this dose reduce individual "skill" requirements as far as shooting goes there is still a High degree of skill required for who ever is leading as they are basically playing an RTS with real people instead of AI units
>>253934220 Well, you don't know exactly where they will spawn, or which direction they will be going, but there are a finite number of places to spawn and finite number of places to go, so it makes sense to start lobbing rockets in that direction to punish that movement. This is a montage of clips, but even in these clips that made it into the video they lob a lot of ammunition that never hits because they could not perfectly predict enemy movement, choice and spawn. You could imagine if this was normal gameplay footage and not a series of clips this would be a less common occurrence.
>>253934220 They know exactly the same thing you do, though. And you're never forced to go in a specific direction, the maps are very open ended. Sure, if you could get the railgun it'd help, but so would the rocket lawnchair. It's really tactical, just fake them out and mix up your weapon choices.
>>253934591 It doesn't. Chivalry isn't hard either, it just takes a bit of forward thinking, prediction and composure, when in a duel with a good play. Otherwise, it's scrubs or "LOOK AT MY SIK TWIRLS OH WAIT WHY AM I DEAD I ALWAYS WIN WTF" faggots.
>>253934934 I bought chivalry on release day, and have always played duels, even before there was an actual duel mode
6:1 in my duel record, and I can safely say that high level dueling is complete bullshit
even after all of the nerfs, MaA is so ridiculously overpowered it's disusting, a defensive MaA is borderline impossible to kill if played correctly, the only class that can take them is either another MaA, or a vanguard with spear/greatsword
knights are incredibly disappointing in duels except against other knights, seeing as both van and MaA are able to dance
the new messer trend is pretty decent, because you will win every single trade, and is similar to when GM was the best 2h for knights, except messer is much better against van and maa
in teamplay knights reign supreme, but in duels the need some serious love
of course with the riposte 180's and shit it matters less, but it's not even worth the effort to play against a good MaA as a knight
MaA with a broad, norse, or quarter is fucking bullshit, straight up. actulaly almost every single weapon maa has is fucking bullshit, just due to the nature of their dodge
>teheee macepoke during your recovery because le balanced dodge faec >quarterstaff poking >norse strafedodging >buckler+hatchet cheesing
>>253935632 I love Chivalry. MAA VS Knight always ends the same way for me, with the cunts peasant head on the floor. Feinting is the way to go against them. Get them to low stamina, and you've won. They tend to reflex dodge instead of actually thinking, which is how I win. Against really good MaA's, go with fists, as dumb as it may seem.
>>253940229 They arent even getting 1 hit kills in the video. And probly because the map is so fucking small that not spawning with weapons would make whoever kills first pretty much take the whole thing
>>253939962 then you aren't playing against good MaA, I'm not talking about random pubbies in duel servers
>feinting is the way to go against them they will just dodge the feint, that's what it's there for
either dodging feints, or dodging combo's so they can land a free and safe hit
they are fast enough that sprinting away will let them regen stamina faster than you being able to catch up, and you either let them get full stam for 1 tick of health, or chase them and let them regen stamina while you sit at half
only way to beat good maa is by deceptive comboing and feint comboing, where they dodge in for a hit and you hit them before they can attack
>>253934829 This game and Jedi Academy actually have a very in-depth saber combat system. My only problem with the games was the "exploits" of saber combat involving manipulating your mouse with erratic movements.
I've never played it even though it did pique my interest awhile back when I was looking for a similar combat system as Jedi Academy.
Though I'm not if it can get anywhere near as bad as in JA with techniques such as wiggling, spinning, and poking. The first two being self-explanatory and the last being an exploit of the way damage was calculated in game by moving your mouse opposite of the cut's direction in order to make it remain in the target.
>>253942552 well before they implemented a vertical dragspeed cap, it had similar things to that
each swing has 3 sections, the first is an animation leading up to the damaging portion, then the part of the swing that does damage, then an animation of you winding down the swing
before the cap, you could stare at the ground and do an overhead attack, so your sword would be much closer to the enemy, then whip your mouse up so that the sword is now extremely far away, then slowly reign it back down so that the last few frames nick their hitbox
it was used force out a block from the enemy, then delay your attack so their block times out, hitting on the last few frames
it was also done in reverse
aim as far up as you can, do an overhead, then stare at your feet. your torso would physically bend over, so not only owuld your sword swing, but your entire body would swing. sometimes the speed would be so fast that your damage tracer would literally be stuck inside their hitbox, making the attack unblockable
and of course if you crouched and parried an attack into an overhead riposte, then stood up and looked down, it would have the greatest variance and thus the greatest shift in speed, leaidng to near instant hits that were only blockable by anticipation, reaction speed would be too slow since parrying took a few frames and by that time you would already be dead
it was much faster before that change
and now knight 2h is really shit since its so slow now, only swords survived
>>253943118 and it used to be that the handle of your weapon would do damage, which is why you would stand up on an overhead riposte, since the handle would be closer to them
it was hilariously broken since some animaitons didnt synch up with actual hitboxes and tracers
the most famous of these weapons was the halberd
2nd longest reach, huge damage, but pretty slow
the overhead animation was actually slower than the damaging tracers, AND the handle would do full damage
if you did a crouch overhead riposte, not only would the handle kill you, you would be hit before the damaging tracer portion of the animation played, so you would literally get killed before it was possible to react
it was pretty fucking bullshit, seeing as it was stupidly quick the closer you got to the vanguard with a halberd
recap: halberd has 2nd longest reach in the game halberd has one of the highest knockbacks in the game, if you parry an attack it will literally push you back halberd had really high stamina damage for parrying it, run out of stamina and you are stunned = free hit on you halberd had broken animations and could two shot knights with manipulated ripostes
balance has gotten much better, but it was the wild west of dueling during release, everything was so broken and overpowered that it was considered balanced since every class had some way to cheese the opponent
>>253943870 Hmm it definitely seems like it is difficult to make an fluid melee combat system involving the mouse without some sort of exploits that leak in. In that respect I think that JA and JK2 both actually benefit from the fact that they both have small dedicated communities that played (or are still playing) because one could find places where people were okay with exploits and places where they were prohibited. However, a small community has its own obvious drawbacks.
>>253944923 well when the vert dragspeed cap was implimented, that seriously changed the way the game was played
it went from a twitch melee fighter to a more technical game
it used to be that stamina wasn't used as much and wasnt as important, but they rebalanced the way stamina recovers and is depleted
now instead of mouse whipping and riposte dragging, we have 180's and more emphasis on matrixing
a 180 has the same principle of the vert drags, but instead of whipping it down, you simply turn around
so you look up and start an overhead, while at the same time rotating 180 degrees the overhead attack starts above your head, which is now slightly pointing towards them, so the exact frame it starts to do damage, the sword is right in their face
it's really risky, but is extremely fast and hard to counter you can impliment this with a riposte, and even 1h weapons if you are close enough
the drawback is obvious, since you cant see your opponent, and it's borderline impossible to parry an attack if they riposte off of it, sinc eyou will have to turn back around and parry while they are most likely attacking to the side to take advantage of the fact that you cannot see
now dancing is much more prevalent, which is playing footsies and trying to dance around the end range of your weapon, running away and turning to clip them with the edge of a swing
>>253945473 Ah you've actually manage to pique my interest in trying the game out. I used to play with non-exploiters on JA and those matches came down to timing, footwork, etc and they were very satisfying. I would love to have a similar experience again in a game with a larger community and a setting that I personally enjoy more.
>a 180 has the same principle of the vert drags, but instead of whipping it down, you simply turn around -reminds me of some of the more advance footwork possible in JA such as initiating a vertical slash and running at the opponent but you turn in a 360 during the cut animations in order to weave just out of range of your opponent's cut (by running away from them during the middle of the turn) and coming back in with your own cut.
vanguard has the most footwork of the 3 melee classes
Man at arms has a short dodge-hop thing, but are the hardest class to play since they have the lowest health
the knight had the most health, but is really slow. they rely on trading hits since they can tank through it, and fine mouse control and timing, especially with the maul or messer. the fucking messer is really lame to play against, since it's so slow. you might think you are hitting them during windup, which would cancel their attack by making them flinch, but jokes on you, it was already swinging, so you get your head chopped off while you stand there unable to do anything
>>253946296 Again, not a whole lot of skill. That would involve a lot of game knowledge to know where to farm bubbles and fireflies and a lot of luck to avoid shitty engagements. Gunfights and resource management would require skill, but not as much as other games listed in the thread.
>>253949463 >tips i just gave you the reasoning behind it, actually playing the game well is incredibly difficult
if you wants tips:
play team objective to learn the game play FFA to unlock weapons play duel once you have all the weapons unlock on all 4 classes feinting is incredibly bad mannered, especially in duels, people might say "its in the game" or "learn to read feints", but it is still super fucking scummy to do, especially when you are getting your ass whooped shield are balanced, just hold down kick and it stuns them dont rely on the claymore to prop up your skill
>>253950140 >feinting is incredibly bad mannered, especially in duels, people might say "its in the game" or "learn to read feints", but it is still super fucking scummy to do, especially when you are getting your ass whooped
>playing the game well is difficult >calls something out as 'scummy'
>>253951225 i dont think you understand how feinting works in chivalry
in real life feinting is changing how you strike, or the direction of the blow, to confuse the defender
in chivalry, feinting just stops the animation completely and instantly, allowing you to attack again. parrying only lasts 0.5s, so if you start an attack, feint, then attack again, you will hit them
when everything is super fast paced, throwing in a feint is basically unreadable and is considered bad manners because there is basically no counterplay. can you "read" a feint? no, because it looks exactly like a regular attack until the enemy hits Q and stops it suddenly. it is impossible to "read" a feint, you can only take a chance and predict them to be feinting
and of course you can throw in a feint and fuck them up, and then feint twice in a row, so they think "oh he feinting, now he will attack", just kidding faggot, he double feinted
you can feint like 8 times in a row and there isnt a fucking thing the enemy can do
it's even more fun when the enemy uses GM or something that does 2/3's of your health, so if you get epiklly trik'd by their sneaky bullshit, you will die
feinting is bad manners because: 1. hardly any counterplay 2. is a crutch 3. discourages you getting good without feinting 4. lowers quality and enjoyment of dueling overall
let me say again those who have not played the tribes series don't understand how high the skill ceiling is in that game, its not fucking dota 2 which is basically a big fucking cat and mouse game, its a fucking flowing symphony of three dimensional insanity. It is basically a sport without the physical requirements.
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