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I want to clear something up for you god...
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I want to clear something up for you god damn casual smash elitists. I know that you get wet by the thought of having your character randomly jump to 999% damage for no reason, just for the sake of being WHACKY AND RANDOM AND A PARTY GAME LELELELELEL.

But unlike what most of you have been brainwashed into believing by these stupid cunts, the competitive scene does NOT want Smash 4 to be just another Melee.

Literally no one asked to have "advanced techniques" in the new Smash game. No one. Not even Mew2King or Armada. Who are those guys? Two of the most successful competitive Melee players out there. Say what you will, they make money doing this, and they probably make more than you and me combined, so spare me the LE AUTISM comments. They make money and no amount of shitposting will change that.

The concerns are simple. We want MOVEMENT options, and better physics. Smash 4 has shown that it can be fast paced like Melee, without having to depend on "techniques" or "glitches" as some uneducated idiots call them.

Are we worse than Hitler for wanting our jumps to carry the momentum when we run? That has been in old retro games, why not now? Is it really that bad that we ask the landing lag on aerials be reduced for ALL characters? Or do most of you not want to use your favorite characters to their maximum potential?

>I don't want to do that because Sakurai said this is a party game, not a fighting game

And the law says street racing is illegal. Doesn't stop fast car fanatics from doing it. Never will. In the end, every round of Smash bros. must have a winner. It's naturally competitive in one way or another. The only time it isn't is when you're against a CPU or playing adventure modes.

The big bad wolves of the tournament scene just want simple fixes to the new Smash Bros. game.

Consider the following: Better movement and better flowing gameplay does nothing but help the game and the players, and it just feels right.

Now shitpost and tell me I'm wrong.
>>
tl;dr
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>>253490592
you're mostly right but since /v/ are a bunch of casual children they will probably just post a caucphony of contradictions
>>
You're wrong because project m is better.
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Not OP.

I just don't want a defensive metagame. It's not nearly as fun to watch, and not quite as fun to play.
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>>253490592
Chill out, it's just a game.
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>>253490592
>>
>>253490693
people want smash to have decent physics and somewhat balanced. it doesnt have to be melee

/v/ is retarded and thinks these people just want melee
>>
Competitive scene.

Bet you get laid hourly.
>>
I'm a professional competitive Mario Kart player and I'm disappointed with MK8.

>physics are too slow, even in 150cc, the whole game feels slow and floaty.
>tracks are all gimmicky and unbalanced with tons of stage hazards and random elements in them
>there is no option to turn off items since they're all luck based and unfair
>advanced techniques such as snaking and L-hopping were removed for no apparent reason

Honestly, MK8 feels like a MK Wii 2.0. I think I'll just stick with Double Dash
*sigh* it's a shame Nintendo doesn't catter to US the real professional players and instead just do whatever they want.
>>
Damn, if you actually struggled to read what OP said you must be a NEET for sure.
>>
>>253491006
he used the laid card
>>
>>253490592
>competitive scene doesnt want melee tech
so what? IM the one that wants it
i use that shit and i like it in melee
fuck you op
>>
Smash should have superior limb based combat.
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>>253490592
>hitler
>bad
>>
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>>253491012
>A racer and fighter are the same thing
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>>253491012
>tfw no competitive MK8 scene
Also you can turn off items in that game and there is that weird "advanced" technique thing in MK8 so your joke sucks.
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>>253490592
>the competitive scene does NOT want Smash 4 to be just another Melee.

i've literally seen people say they wanted Melee HD
>>
>>253491252
Whoa, hardcore.
I'm sure all your middle school friends are really impressed.
>>
>>253491012
>Double Dash
>Not MK7 or MKDS
What the fuck are you, some kinda casual?

The funny part is that half of your complaints are legitimate. I hated MK8.
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>>253490592
>waaah waah we want a Melee rehash with prettier graphics and more content!
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Everyone agrees OP. Except the people who can look back on Brawl today and say it was great.
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>>253490592
>make more money than me

Nice try faggot. I have a PhD in Mathematics and had a starting salary of 300k. I'm up to 700K a year now. Now fuck off autist. I hope your movement options in Smash are terrible.
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>>253490592
>And the law says street racing is illegal. Doesn't stop fast car fanatics from doing it.

I just stopped in to tell you this argument is absolutely retarded. Don't care about the rest of your post or Smash.
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Based OP, what's even more ironic is that casual elitists act like we're the nazis when they're outright saying that if you prefer melee or don't play with items than you're playing wrong and they're actually happy that movement and recovery techniques have been removed.
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>>253491017
You say NEET like it's a bad thing. Fuck off normie. Enjoy being a wage slave working at a fast food restaurant while I make just as much as you for doing nothing.
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>>253491762
>Lying on the internet
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>>253491251
Whatever happened to that guy?

He was the most iconic troll we've had in a long time.
>>
>>253490592
>casual
>elitist
how does that work. its more like people hating on faggot tournyfags
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So how much money do they actually make?
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>>253492025
>wanting the pointless chore of L-cancelling in the game

It slows down casuals while only providing more tedious work for good players. Only an absolute tourneyfaget Fuckhead would ever defend this.
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>>253492062
>im proud to be a waste of space!
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>>253491391
They're a loud minority.

It doesn't matter if SSB4 ends up being Melee 2.0, people will still shit on it for one reason or another. But it's still guaranteed to get one year free pass at EVO, it will still get a dedicated competitive base and unless it's fundamentally flawed like Brawl was, it has every chance to take the spotlight. It's the same shit like with MvC2, people refused to let go because they waited so long and couldn't get their groove going with MvC3. Look how different things are now.

Also, Brawl managed to actually have a lasting community despite tripping and defensive play. Hell we got a new tier list as early as last year. You just don't see it blown up to EVO proportions because last year the Smash players were given a choice to represent their game, and they chose the one that represents the series better.

SSB4 just needs to be a solid game with no fundamental missteps, many of which have already been remedied from Brawl, and it'll do good no matter how loud some little wannabe tourney shits are.
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>>253492538
It's your fault for allowing your taxpayer dollars to pay for an asspie's vidya games and parent house rent.
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>>253492247
But why are tourneyfags faggots in the first place? Seriously what did they do to deserve all the shit they get? Aside from dedicated smash forums I have NEVER seen anyone outright say brawl is shit and that every smash should be like melee. this seems to me like once again people are condemning an entire group of people for something that very few believe.
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>>253491608
Only the first one, about it being slow and floaty. None of the gimmicks and hazards are random and will be in the same position at the same time after the start of the race, you can not only turn items off but can set a few specific items or even make it more frantic, snaking was broken in DS and fixed when drifting was revamped in the very next game, and "L-hopping," which I can assume is L-cancelling but I'll liken it to firehopping, was INTRODUCED in 8 as a result of its "slow and floaty" physics that actually adds to the meta game: the normally broken inside drifting bikes cannot perform it, which levels the playing field for competent players.

And to be honest, I like it being slow and floaty. My major complaints are the lack of content and the shitty netcode.
>>
what the fuck is your point
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>>253492792
by making annoying threads like this, duh
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>>253492816
>Only the first one.
No, the last one is correct too.
>I like it being slow and floaty.
And you are the .01% who actually like brawl in comparison to everyone else.
>>
>wanting samurai to cater to a fraction of a percentage of people because those people happen to make money off of it

hes not gonna do that. hes gonna make what he thinks is best for the 99.999% of players who arent playing competitively

suck a dick
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>>253492727
>parent house rent

I have a single apartment actually
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>>253492727
its not my fault, its the system's fault.
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>>253491762
>PhD in Mathematics
>Uses autist as an insult
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>>253492457
So being able to recover more quickly if you're skilled enough is a bad thing?
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>>253490592
No one on this board actually prefers Brawl over Melee. They're all either shitposters looking to make people "le mad™" or people bitter at wannabe-tourneyfags that act as walking stereotypes during casual play despite having no actual experience with competitive smash.

The sooner everyone here learns to report and ignore, the sooner we can actually discuss video games on /v/.
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>>253492910
You didn't read it then since OP says he doesn't want melee 2.0 he just wants smash 4 to not be fundementally broken.
>>
I actually agree with no advanced techniques like l cancelling or wavedashing because they force a false skill divide based on unintuitive knowledge. I fucking love Melee, but I play Brawl more because it's more fun with casual friends. Heres hoping we get a good middle ground between Melee and Brawl as far as speed is concerned.
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>>253493021
>it is impossible to make a game fun for both casual and competitive play
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>>253490592
>better movement and better flowing gameplay
can you please define? only real thing you mention is momentum and reducing landing lag. is that all your crying about?
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>people wanting a slow, shitty, unresponsive game
Fuck you faggots I don't want Melee I just want something that's fast and fun
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>>253493497
it is.
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>>253493079
not that guy, but one thing you'll learn as you become an adult is that it doesnt matter what people do, how much money they make, or how "saintly" they are, they will always be a shitty human being to at least one person
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>>253493128
I prefer Brawl over Melee because I like the new characters, items, and stages, along with the OST and Stage Editor.
Feel free to say I'm trolling or a shitposter though. No skin off my nose.
>>
New playstyles, new balances, deal with it. You can't adapt then stick to the games you like, there's STILL a 64 competitive scene.
>>
I disagree OP. Video games in general need to slow down and create more random punishments.

>Mario should twist his ankle occasionally when landing from a jump
>Kirby should suffocate occasionally when eating an enemy
>Fox's Arwing should suffer a completely unexpected engine failure once in a while
>Samus's Morph Ball should malfunction and cripple her in rare instances

Such features would enhance video games as a medium. Tripping was ahead of its time.
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>>253492968
The last one is not correct, snaking was fixed two games ago and for good reason, and the only other thing like that is firehopping which is new to 8.
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>>253493875
That's fine, and Brawl beats Melee in that regard. Almost everyone agrees that Brawl has better content, it's the gameplay that people are up in arms about.
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>>253493707
Nope melee already did that, you can play at a sleepover with pizza and still have fun despite not knowing what the fuck wavedashing, shffling and edge-guarding is.
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>>253492631
Speaking of that Brawl community, where is it?

It's been dead for a long time, last I heard. After deciding that Melee was it's superior, most Brawl players never got the time of day. So, they either converted to Melee or vanished. Or went to Project M
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>>253494136
I still like Brawl's gameplay, even though I do like Melee's better. Which is why I don't care if 4 is Brawl 2.0, Melee 2.0, something inbetween or a whole nother beast entirely. I like the newcomers, the stages shown, Smash Run, more online options, customization options, and mobile gameplay via 3DS. Unless the game is literally broken on launch I'm sure I'll love the shit out of it.
So really I don't care if 4 caters to casuals or tourneyfags and it's why I don't understand why everyone is so worried. As far as I can tell every iteration of Smash has been fun as fuck to play at its core and has improved on the previous iteration in atleast a couple ways.
Personally I can't wait for launch.
>>
Here is the breakdown of the entire Melee vs Brawl vs Project M vs Smash 4 debacle

1) Every single one of you is wrong right off the bat for arguing that your personal preference trumps everyone else's, or that everyone should share your personal preference. Some people like Brawl's slower, more deliberate speed, others like Melee's fast pace, etc. Saying one is "objectively better" is fucking stupid.

2) The entire point of the series is to be something anyone can play. INSISTING on "advanced tactics" like wavedashing or L-Cancelling is fucking stupid and serves as a barrier of entry. This is even further exemplified in PM where characters start getting character-specific gimmicks on top of the "advanced tech" put into the mod.

3) It is entirely possible to make a game fun for both casual and tournament play, but you should not be shocked if tournament play isn't as heavily represented because, to be quite frank, the tourney scene doesn't bring in as much money. It will get SOME consideration as, as demonstrated with E3 and EVO, that it's basically free advertising. But showing the tourney scene some love is more a happy circumstance than something you should expect

4) Tourneyfags/Funfags are shitposters and douchebags. Actual tournament players and actual people who just play for fun generally don't care enough to argue because they like the games they like and will allow others to do the same

5) Fuck all of you who fall for constant baiting by people trying to stir up arguments.
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>>253493990
This guy.
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>>253492196
>>253493079
>not knowing PhD in math
>300k starting

i think ive been here too long
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>>253491012
What point are you trying to make here? Because you're not making one.
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>>253491012
>doesn't know that competitive Mario Kart is a thing
>doesn't know that there's a green shells only mode
>>
This question is directed to anyone that played the Wii U demos at best buy.

What's the lag like for roll dodging?
Someone told me that you couldn't dodge back and forth like in Brawl. Is that true?
>>
>>253493021
>not making simple change in order to cater to 100% of the audience
This is why Sakurai is a poor developer.
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>>253493979
You didn't read the OP at all.

64 and Melee still have competitive scenes because they are COMPETENTLY MADE GAMES. That's exactly what OP was saying.
>>
I don't understand the casual only mentality /v/ has towards smash.
You're not like that with any other game.
>>
>>253494858
>2) The entire point of the series is to be something anyone can play.
Not knowing how to wavedash doesn't keep anyone from playing the game at a casual level. If you want to git gud, you're going to be learning these techniques anyway.
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>>253493021
The thing is the changes aren't really all that big of a deal. Make it easier to get around, we don't need wavedashing. Lower landing lag, we don't need l-canceling. Stuff like that really
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>>253494858
>INSISTING on "advanced tactics" like wavedashing or L-Cancelling is fucking stupid and serves as a barrier of entry.
This is where your'e wrong.

If someone is just playing the game to have fun, they're not going to be doing so with people who use or even know of advanced techniques. Their existence simply allows you to elevate your game to another level if you so choose to. It doesn't hinder a casual's fun AT ALL.
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>>253494858
>3) It is entirely possible to make a game fun for both casual and tournament play
Hello Melee.
>>
It finally hit me. I know why guys like you hate tourneyfags or people who enjoy playing smash 1on1 and without items. It's simple, you SUCK at the game. You envy us who have mastered smash bros. . You see us having fun, getting into "the zone" when we have those fast paced as fuck matches, sweating and after the match shaking hands.
You will never feel this. Because you simply SUCK at the game. So instead of getin fucken gud you complain about tourneyfags. I'm so fucking happy that sakurai listened to US and made smash bros 4 fast again, removed tripping, removed the floating and added hit stun again for ma combos.


Melee is one of the very few games that can be played casualy (like you obviously play it) and competitive. Why is that such a bad thing? I have fun playing it my way and you have fun your way. Why do you want us to not have fun so badly? What do you gain from our loss? I don't understand you people.I'm sorry that you suck at games bro.
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>>253490592
Blah blah blah
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>>253490592

Those techniques are glitches, just like strafe jumping is.

It's why strafe jumping and wave dashing is hard as shit to learn while things like dodging and advanced movement in Unreal Tournament is easy as shit to learn.

I want techniques built into the game, not glitches.
>>
>>253496814
It's out of spite for tourney players because people who play Capcom fighting games (or one of the few pro fighting games not by them) often refuse to respect any head to head fighting game that doesn't fit the Capcom definition of a fighting game of being locked on a plane, using combos and high/low blocking. I love the FGC and also hate it. FGC tourneys have some of the more chill people I've ever played games with at them but their egos are unmatched especially with how highly they hold fighting games versus other games and mos tof them find it insulting or just don't like the idea of calling smash a fighting game because it doesn't fit what Capcom decided is one.Because of this they feel the need to argue over whether or not it's a fighting game on the grounds that it's a "party game" when in reality, like I said, it's so much more about the ego behind classic fighting games.

Some people genuinely like Brawl more simply because all they care about is characters and if you can actually have fun in Brawls slow ass system then by all means, play the game with more characters. Those people though usually recognize what people like more about Melee and if they don't or say that they don't it almost certainly all comes back to spiting tourneyfags for playing a way they don't like to play. I feel I can say that with certainty because Brawl is worse than Melee in every way besides roster, the changes to the game systems only served to make it worse for casual players as well and if anyone thinks otherwise I dare them to argue to me that they enjoy randomly tripping when the game decides they've done "too many" inputs.
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>>253490592
They wont understand OP
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>>253490592
>>253491012
Well I have a message for you.
Those games are supposed to be party games.
They arent made for some autistic people sitting 100 of hours in their basement theorycrafting.

git social and go 2 partys
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>>253490592
I like you.
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>>253496426
No, you don't understand.
"anyone can play" does not mean "any casual can beat any casual"
It means "anyone can beat anyone, even a casual beating a pro player"
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>>253494984
>STEMfags
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>>253491012
>no option to turn off items
There actually is one, you uneducated shitposter.
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>>253497064
Casuals play with casuals though. It doesn't matter.
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>>253497064
There is literally no game in existence like that, even Brawl.

Playing and practicing any multiplayer game often will elevate your game and allow you to routinely beat newbies. This is a matter of how high Sakurai allows that ceiling to be.
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>>253496565
>If someone is just playing the game to have fun, they're not going to be doing so with people who use or even know of advanced techniques.

No, actually that happens all the time.
So just removing them entirely makes that no longer possible.
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>>253493596

In 64 and Melee characters had decently long initial dash frames that were distinct from the normal running animation due to the fact that you could use them to pivot without going through the ultra laggy turnaround animation.

This allowed for all kinds of cool techniques, the most basic of which is called dash dancing. It's literally just running back and forth without losing speed, but it opens up your options and makes your opponents second guess your approaches. This isn't possible in the most recent version of Smash4. Dashing in the current build sucks because it just leaves you vulnerable.
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>>253497064
That's really stupid. Why even bother playing a game if anyone can beat literally everyone?
>>
>We want movement options
>That's why we want that atrocious air dodge mechanic that destroys all momentum in exchange for the ability to move a little bit in another direction

I just don't know how anyone could like that. It was so bad unless you wanted to use it as a ghetto down dodge
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>>253496814
You can play Brawl competitively too.
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>>253494858
>Some people like Brawl's slower, more deliberate speed

Who has ever said this besides you?
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>>253497064
And why would you want something like that in any game? A skilled person is going to beat a casual at a game no matter what obstacles you put in their way, gimping everything just to give lesser skilled players a chance ruins it for everyone.
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>>253496426
>>253496565

I'm not referring to casuals who want to just fuck around. I am saying that even as far as "high level play" is concerned, Nintendo has always considered the aim of Smash to be "what's there is there."

The point is that the things a casual learns in the "how to play" are identical to what the pros use in their tournaments. There's not meant to be anything hidden or obscured.

Also, with regards to L-Cancelling specifically, there is no reason not to use it and it'd be simpler to just have faster recovery on aerials all the time.
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>>253497240
>If someone is better than me at a game, the game itself should be changed to cater to my inability to get better at it.
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>>253497124
>insulting STEM
Enjoy your inferior jobs and inferior pay.
>>
>>253497064
Like hell that existed in Brawl.

Back when that shit was new, my friends and I all knew Meta Knight was broken as fuck. You couldn't play as anybody if somebody chose that fucker.
>>
I'm going to enjoy playing Smash 4 competitively AND casually, and none of you can stop me.

Why does /v/ have to make every conversation become so aggressive and argumentative?
>>
Sakurai doesn't care and he will never care because he hates your guts, for some reason.
It's a shame but it's true.
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>>253490592
>they make money and no amount of shitposting will change that

Stopped reading there. Here I thought /v/ was at least above respecting the likes of Pewdiepie and Kim Kardashian.
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>>253498047
Then why does he think Melee is the best Smash game he made?
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>>253498047
Sakurai has explained why the games are so different is because of how different the consoles fanbases are.

People that bought the Gamecube and people that bought the Wii were mostly not the same.
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>>253496908

Wavedashing is built into the game. It was added by the developers once they discovered that directional airdodging had the potential to clip characters through the stage and kill them. It even has it's own named designation in debug mode, landfall special.

L-canceling is also a deliberately programmed feature. It was in 64 as well (where it was even more powerful) and was publicly acknowledged on the 64 Japanese site.
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>>253498136
Please tell me you didn't just equate tournament players with let's players and reality TV. You couldn't possibly be that stupid, right?
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>>253497608
I do, since I am doing something with my life that I actually enjoy.

>muh starting sallery of a million dollars
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>>253498136
I actually do respect Pewdiepie. I don't like his videos but i respect him,
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>>253498335
Sakurai also stated in a Melee inteview that wavedashing was put in the game on purpose, mainly to appeal to the Gamecube fanbase, cause he considered them to be mostly advanced players.
The player base of a console has a lot of control on how the smash game gets made.
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>>253498335

There is no tutorial for the technique and is designed as a bug fix more than an advanced movement technique.

L cancelling should just be automatic, there's no reason ever that a fast wakeup is not beneficial in this game.

It's not the same thing in the slightest.
>>
>>253498335
>>253498902
L-cancel is back.

Just look right after Lucina hits Samus and Greninja
>>
>>253498902
I don't think anyone is saying there should be an L cancelling system, just that recovery should be faster.
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>>253499308
looks more like auto cancelling
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>>253498902

This. Wavedashing (or "Landfall Special") is more of a "In the event of airdodging into the ground, this is what will happen because the alternative is far worse"

As for L-Cancelling, while I think that it's stupid, I guess it's best to just think of it as similar to just frames in Tekken/Soul Calibur.

>>253499308
I wonder if it's something they added recently. You'd think someone who played at E3 would have mentioned it otherwise.
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>>253490592
For anyone not willing to read what op type he's essentially crying because Smash 4 isn't melee
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>>253499605
Auto cancel is better than L-cancelling. It's not like there is any situation where you wouldn't use it.
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>>253499308
Could just be how she looks when she hits the ground, hard to tell because she didn't follow up.

Would be neat though.
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>>253499308
it isn't, the move has the same ending lag as marth's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ej06eP_uY
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>>253499721
It's possible, people who played the E3 demo said landing after attacks was super laggy and there would be an issue trying to approach by air.
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>>253498902

There's no tutorial for shorthopping, but it's in every game.
There's no tutorial for fastfalling, but it's in every game.
There's no tutorial for angled smash attacks, but...
>>
>>253497064
If the game is pure randomness i might just play throwing dice.
>>
>>253498902
I agree with you about L-canceling though.
>>
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>>253490592
Way to go OP, you made the comp Smash fans look EVEN MORE like autists.
You are right though everyone wants the new smash to be good, and sloppy phics and shit ruins the game for everyone.
>>
>>253499924
it is not better than l-cancelling because it can only be done either at the very beginning or the very end of your attack animation
l-cancelling is nice because it lets you land in the middle of your animation
>>
>>253490947
>/v/ is retarded
everyone on /vg/ or /v/ will shitposting if they don't fucking know what they're talking about
>>
>>253500789
>Way to go OP, you made the comp Smash fans look EVEN MORE like detailed cunts
and that is bad because? wait no, you'd never said it was bad
>>
>>253501735
I did say it was bad, OP getting all made and typing up a paragraph as an OP for /v/ will get nothing done,
>>
>>253502317
*mad
>>
>>253491762
damn 700k a year

you can afford a ps3
>>
>>253502317
What do you mean "get nothing done"?
>>
>>253502483
*You can almost afford a PS3
ftfy
>>
>>253500325

Short hopping needs no tutorial because it's in every Mario game and platformer since the dawn of time. It's nothing new.

Fast falling should be explained, but at least that's just a single input and hardly an "advanced" technique.

All those other mechanics were simple enough and should have been explained, they were not implemented as bug fixes.

The correct argument is that there's no simpler way to keep the movement options in the game, this way it's complex and not needlessly complex. I don't know if it's true or not, but I fully believe they could have made the technique easier to perform if they wanted it as a core mechanic.
>>
>>253490592
>And the law says street racing is illegal. Doesn't stop fast car fanatics from doing it. Never will.

So what you're saying is... Meleefags are criminals and should be jailed?
>>
>>253492538
I doubt you're productive, mate.
>>
>>253501005
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that anon's idea of autocanceling is having aerial landing lag being half of what it currently is across the board no matter when you land in the aerial animation. No, this is not what is traditionally thought of as autocanceling in Smash (there are certain autocancel frames of the aerial animations that upon landing cancel ALL lag), but if the two systems were combined and manual l-canceling eliminated all together, it would be better for Smash.

L-canceling is an input tax. Sure, there's a lot of skill involved with doing it consistently, especially when you get into shield angling to mix people's timing up, but at the end of the day there is literally no situation where you wouldn't want to do it. To be able to act sooner is always preferable to being unable. Good games, competitive games are a series of interesting choices, and the l-cancel option is a very uninteresting choice. Removing it wouldn't fundamentally change the metagame either. In fact, by removing the extreme danger of missing an l-cancel on block, hit, or whiff (all different timings) you increase the level of aggression.

In Melee I could see this change not working out well because Fox players would no longer need years of practice to fucking wreck, but it's a change I would LOVE to see implemented in P:M.
>>
>>253490592
>wanting our jumps to carry the momentum when we run?

Could someone please explain why this is an issue. I have no problem controlling the jump physics.
>>
>>253503227
>but it's a change I would LOVE to see implemented in P:M.
I mean, I agree with you, but then we would get even more shitposting about P:M being too easy.
>>
>>253503624
It keeps the flow in the game going better.
>>
>>253503968
I don't know what you mean by flow.
>>
>>253502947
Goddammit moot, make quick reply not remember this shit.
>>
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>>253490592
Cry some more meleenigger.
>>
>>253503014

I see where you're coming from but it's important to remember that in addition to being a game, Smash is also a complex physics engine with many, many more exploits than the three I've listed. This is why it is often referred to as a sandbox fighter, even though it's a terrible name. The line between glitch and intended feature is not just blurred, the competitive scene has actually erased it. Developer intention is a swell idea, but we play the games we get and we got a good one, intended or not.

>I fully believe they could have made the technique easier to perform if they wanted it as a core mechanic

I agree. They should figure that out, or an analogous mechanic that allows for quick positional adjustments.
>>
>>253504596
Good post.
>>
you guy are always complaining

everyone complains about something but then they move on to complain about other things. but no, you complained about brawl and now you're complaining about smash 4. I expect to see it all over again with smash 5.
>>
its a party game.

if there was a competitive mario party community, they would actually be less of a joke then the smash competitive community, because at least they dont have to ban 80% of the game.
>>
>>253504890
4chan was more fun when people weren't so afraid of looking like reddit.
>>
>>253505212
This
Stop getting "competitive" over a funny random game, duds
>>
>>253505212
>>253505329
What is with this attitude? If i game has an option for both playstyles that's a bad thing?
>>
>>253505435
The game isn't at fault.
But the community, OHOHOHOHO, now that's bad.
>>
>>253490592
Too bad Sakurai doesn't give a shit about tourneyfags.

You still have Melee :^).
>>
>>253505647
How so? What tournament did you go to?
>>
>>253505212
What do people even mean by party game? Are they basically saying it's better off with crazy amounts of RNG to even the playing field?
>>
>>253505435
its a casual game. this will NEVER change. its not meant to be hardcore, nor taken seriously. its for friends to sit down and fuck around with each other.

you have so many other options for other competitive games, like sf, tekken, etc. actual competitive games meant to be taken seriously.

melee is the biggest joke of a fighter out there. the combos that exist are extremely easy and base compared to other fighters, the balance is so abysmal 80% of the game has to be fucking banned. the fighting is so shallow its not even funny.

fuck off and go play an actual competitive game. oh, but you wont do that because its to hard and you will get your ass beat.

>>253506246
it means its not meant, or designed, to be taken seriously. how fucking stupid are you competitive smash faggots? its so simple, but you idiots cant seem to get it in your head.

kill yourselves.
>>
>>253506686
The better player wins. You can't stop that no matter how much you try to stack the deck.
sounds like you need to git gud
>>
>>253506686
I don't understand this level of hate, what drives it?
>>
>>253490592
>casual smash elitists
What does this even mean?
>>
>>253496941
But the creator of smash agrees with the FGC that the series is not a fighter and doesn't belong at evo.

Melee autists have bitched and whined and threw so many fits and petitioned so many times that they have effectively been able to get Hungry Hungry Hippos into the Chess Championships by sheer force of tantrum.
>>
>>253507165
This guy>>253506686

Play the game the way i want you to or kill yourself.
>>
>>253490592

>HEY GUYS, CAN WE COMPLETELY CHANGE THE MAIN MECHANIC OF SMASH GAMES SO THAT THEY ARE MORE COMPETITIVE?

No sorr-

>KOLPJNDHFNNGAOEJNHRNJGPDJNUGRP;OWHJPDUGHWPSUHTERYPUWEHRTPOUWDHGPQWHGPWHRGIHUTWITTERLKJBHAIUHDOIUAHIUFTUMBLROIUdszJFIUHNIUFJhcasuaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAL
>>
>>253507463
What part of what OP is suggesting would ruin smash for you?
>>
>>253507661
People being better than him.
>>
>>253507661

It would not ruin anything for me. But it'd be completely different from the slow, dream-like floating characters do in every other Smash game.

And OP is talking like it's an improvement. it's not. The floating air combat is a design choice. Part of Sakurai's vision of what Smash Bros is SUPPOSED to be.

The competitive audience wants the game changed so it can be MORE competitive, but Sakurai has already come out saying that what the competitive audience wants is not his vision of Smash.

And whenever you telll any shitty elitist hardcore smash player this, you're immediately labelled a casual or dismissed.

Like I already stated, I could play either and be happy, but OP is one entitled motherfucker.
>>
lol@ all the butthurt in this thread
What's wrong with a game being casual and competitive at the same time anyway?
>>
>>253490592

I don't want to see broken physics like wavedashing in any game

ever again

thank you lord Samurai for your gift of getting rid of people that think toggling their sticks the fastest is equivalent to skill
>>
>>253490592
Faster movement and less ending lag is fine.

Not tell all that to the faggots on this board who moan daily about not having their chain-grabbing, l-cancelling, wavedashing, DACUS, etc.
>>
>>253505824
Only one, here is how things went
>Go to local game shop for small self-organized Brawl tournament something like 1-2 years ago
>Full of kids and and an handful of teens/20s yolds, the people you would expect
>Then there's this guy who stands among the others
>It's a really smelly nigger with strange glasses with a flamed T-shirt
>While I'm looking some kids playing the first matches he ends up near me
>Starts mumbling something about casuals and kiddie games and swearing
>Employee overhears and asks him to refrain, he shuts his mouth reluctantly
>It's his turn, against a really young, like 10-12, little kid
>He picks Fox, kid picks Luigi
>He starts sperging for picking Battlefield over the randomly selected stage, they consent, then he asks to turn off items, they refuse, after much sperging he's forced to deal with it or he gets the boot
>Match starts, he plays ok, defeats the kid by small advantage
>After the match he starts flaunting in a really dickish and umpolite manner, saying to the kid he is a born loser and that he won because he have played a better game
>Kids as expected starts crying
>Staff have to ask him to stop behaving this way or he'll be disqualified, thing I'd have done right away
>He grudgingly shuts up
>Tourney goes on
>Semifinals
>He is against a pretty chill dude I got to knew that day, later
>Niggo picks Fox as usual, he picks Wario
>He destroys him so easily I still laugh at the memory
>Nigger throws a tantrum, saying that he deserved to win because he is better at melee and only that matters, things like that
>Staff have to send him away
>On his way out he makes merchandise in the shop fall on purpose and for some reason he slaps a kid who was just standing there, all while shouting in full rage something like "GET COMPETITIVE BITCH" "PLAY REAL GAMES" "CASUAL" and things like that
>Kid's dad and Wario bro restrain him while police arrives
>He gets arrested
>Turns out he used drugs and had illegal pornography at his place
>>
You know, if Smashers didn't have such a fucking chip on their shoulder then they wouldn't get baited so easily and the hate would dissipate because it wouldn't be as fun.

By the same token though, people who deride others for the games they play are fucking stupid too. Whether it's Smash or Street Fighter or whatever it's all fucking staring at a screen and inputing commands. People who choose to make more of that particular hobby should be applauded for their ingenuity.
>>
>>253508341
People who aren't good at the game want it dumbed down to their level.

People who are good at the game want more options for movement.
>>
>>253508159
>wanting to play a game is have fun is entitlement
>wanting the game to be shit for a certain group of players isn't entitlement
>>
>>253508159
Okay? But i wasn't asking Sakurai, i was asking you. More importantly then, to casual players, how would what OP is suggesting ruin the game for them?
Because i have never heard anyone defend the floaty gameplay, or talk about it as one of the good parts of the game.
>>
>>253508478
things that never happened: the post
>>
>>253508545
And people who are good enough want both sides to shut up and be glad with what they've got.
>>
>>253508478
>One retard is representative of an entire community
>>
>>253508601
Competitive players are a peripheral audience, like bronies. Melee was good for them entirely by accident. One which is not likely to happen a second time, as the game was not meant to be made for them in the first place. It's literally designed as baby's first fighter.
>>
>>253508690
>Tourneyfags defending other tourneyfags' crimes
This is what Smash community has come to
Sakurai knew it all along, that's why he wants people like you out
>>
>>253508965
>Melee is to MLP what tourneyfags are to bronies
Holy shit, it makes so much sense
>>
>>253508625

It wouldn't ruin anything for me so I can't say, but clearly some people don't want it. One of those people being Sakurai.

>>253508601

I'm glad you think smash is shit. Your opinion really has some weight in this discussion.
>>
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You will never convince autistic elitists that it's okay to have fun in a way they don't approve of. Why even make this thread?
>>
>>253508965
Unlike bronies, catering a game to the competitive audience has literally 0 effect on anyone that doesn't play competitively.
It's more selfish to want a casualized game that can't be played competitively.
>>
>>253508975
I've seen posts like this all the time. Always some random tournament or gathering, always pick Fox, always some autistic retard throwing a fit when they lose to a "bro" playing lower tier character or whatnot, then trying to make them look like villains (knocking over merchandise and slapping a kid, really?). Then cue a bunch of anons replying with sweeping generalizations of every tournament player ever.
>>
>>253509254
Nobody gives a shit if you play Poke Floats with all Bomb Ombs on high.
Competitive players want something that they themselves can enjoy, not at the cost of other players' fun.

Why are casual elitists so autistic to the point where they literally don't want people having fun?
>>
>>253498582

>stem people don't enjoy being stem
nice lies, enjoy your failure and plebianship
>>
>ITT: anti-tourneytards that don't understand what tourneytards want
>>
>>253509480

That's what i'm talking about. People go fucking crazy if you try to play smash the "wrong way".
>>
>>253509550
Oh they understand alright. They just really really dislike them for whatever reason.
I think they took the memes seriously after hearing them repeated over and over. Pretty sad.
>>
>>253509610
Just like the casual elitists ITT.
But it's okay, because those dumb tourneyfags just like having skill.
>>
>>253490592
>Mew2King

I'm sorry but autistic babies who shit on the floor aren't people I generally agree with.
>>
>Casual Elitists

Is this the beginning of a new epic meme?
>>
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>Wanting competitive e-sport
>From a party game
Wow you seriously are all little dumb fucking cunts aren't you. I will be having fun meanwhile while you cry about glitches being removed
>>
>>253491097
Next he'll pull out the "fun at parties" card
>>
>>253510047
Sure, just like how "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION" was a meme.
>>
>>253490592
Nah, commit suicide.
>>
>>253510047
It is!
Praise the competitive party game, brother! XD
>>
>>253510136
>glitches
ayy lmao
>>
>>253509290
It's equally selfish to assume your desires come before the developers' own intentions for the game. If he wants to cut out every character that isn't from the Mario series, that's his choice. It would be extremely stupid, but it's still his game and he can do what he wants with it.
>>
>>253490592
>spare me the LE AUTISM comments

When autism is a problem resulting in thrown matches and a general lack of caring about the game it's gonna be brought up
>>
>>253510047
It's what we call the Western competitive scene.
>>
>>253510359
Going that extra mile to make the game competitive increases its longevity for a lot of players, without affecting the game for anyone else in the slightest.
>>
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>Walking down my school's hall
>Suddenly slip on the wet floor and get hurt
>Complain to the janitor there wasn't any sign
>Janitor throws a fit saying that's how the corridor was supposed to be walked through
>A bunch of strange nerdy niggers come and start bad-mouthing me, telling me to get gud at walking, while sliding on their bellies like penguins down the hall, tripping and running over the other students
>mfw
>>
>>253490592
>"glitches" as some uneducated idiots call them.
But they are glitches. Most of them, at least.
Things like Edge-Guarding are legitimate strategies that formed based on the rules of the game.
L-Cancelling is clearly a developer intended technique.
But when you get into things like Wavedashing? Those are clearly bugs in the physics systems. Don't give me your bullshit about that interview in which the developers said they knew about it. Fine. They knew about it, but if you honestly think they intentionally programmed it in the game, for a character like Luigi to be able to legitimately slide across the map at high speeds like that, you're fucking delusional. Not all bugs need to be removed. Wavedashing doesn't cause the game to have a stroke. It's fairly difficult to pull off (being lenient here) and isn't something that could just end up "happening" in a normal round of play.
It's more likely that the devs didn't think it would be found, so they didn't remove it. The fact that it was removed later in Brawl means that they didn't intend for it to become such a big thing.

Fucking logic. How does it work?
>>
I saw this nice little interview about the game with a few people who play melee a lot. For the most part they said they really like the game, but all they wish is for the game to be less floaty. They say it's not as floaty as brawl though.

But I'm sure samurai listened to what they had to say, even a little bit. So that's good

Reminder the M2K has autism and went to japan with almost no money thinking he could win tons of money in melee games, found out it's illegal and threw up on a guy's couch while he was there. He also jerked it on someone else's couch
>>
>>253491012
The funny fucking thing is that competitive players preferred MK game is MKWii.
>>
>>253509610
Which is what tourneyfags do every time they open their mouths. They tell everyone else that they play Smash wrong.
>>
>>253511020
No they don't.
>>
>>253510814
Wavedashing was intended.
>>
>>253511020
On /v/ the opposite is pretty much the only thing you'll ever come across.
>>
>>253510784

I'm not even sure how how that applies as a metaphor but it's pretty funny.
>>
>>253511298
I think it's wavedashing.
>>
>>253511298
fucking slippery floor fags telling me how to walk through hallways
im sorry some of us just wanna have fun walking through hallways and don't wanna be tryhard hallway athletes
fuck off penguin sliding fags
>>
>>253511374
>>253511463
b-but tripping was a brawl thing
>>
>>253510602
You overestimate the number of people who play the game competitively. From a business standpoint, it's a lot of extra work for a negligible return. The results would be similar no matter what they do, so why bother going the extra mile when you don't get enough out of it to justify using all those extra resources?

Face it, it's a casual game because it was made for the sole purpose of appealing to casual audiences. Don't blame them for pandering to the largest number of people.

>But Melee did it!

Melee was lightning in a bottle- the features that endeared it to the competitive scene were little more than boring by-products of various physics quirks interacting with a playerbase that was already fairly hardcore to start with (relatively speaking- the Gamecube wasn't meant to have the mass appeal that the Wii did). The chances of a future Smash game being like Melee are near zero unless the competitive scene quadruples in size overnight to the point that ignoring it would cause a severe dent in the game's profits. Right now it's too late for that, but perhaps it'll turn around by the time Smash 5 is out.
>>
>live in Casual City, USA
>one of the teachers at my high school lets us set up some games during lunch during senior year
>someone brings brawl
>we play a couple days, nobody really shows up
>bring in melee one day
>everyone is suddenly having a lot more fun
>more people start showing up, bringing their own controllers
>get a crowd of ~40 each time
If Melee is so unwelcoming to casuals and Brawl was designed specifically for them then why did that happen
also the retards came up with the idea that last place player gives up their controller so me and the only other competent player there never had to stop playing
>>
>>253496941
That persecution complex.

The FGC is caught up in that classic definition of a 2d fighting game because that IS the definition of a 2d fighting game.

I couldn't care less how much the smash community wants to obsess or how many tournaments they want to have. But, smash does not nor will it ever fit with the type of game that's usually at EVO, and expecting the creator AND the community to change when both have outright stated they wont is just autistic.
>>
>>253490592
Can someone actually explain how "better physics", and 'good movement options" would work in layman's terms? Or do we have to learn all of the dumb competitive scene lingo to understand?

Honestly, half of the player probably haven't noticed what you're talking about, let alone, able to look at it critically.

But if you can explain it in a way that makes sense to someone who just plays without studying the game, then I'm all ears.
>>
>all this drama over a shitty party game that will rarely move systems.
>SSB competitive scene
The cod competitive scene holds a better reputation than you faggots.
>>
>>253511625
Maybe your school just has more people familiar with Melee than Brawl. Besides, how do you know how much fun they were having?
>>
>>253511780
They want the game to be faster paced.
>>
>>253511151
You dumb fuck
>>
>>253511912
Playing Brawl there weren't that many people and nobody had much to say, there was actually a bit of complaining about the Nunchuk setup because we didn't have 4 gamecube controllers at the time. Playing Melee, there were a lot more people, some came just to watch and were cheering a bit, I remember one guy yelling 'Wu-Tang Clan ain't nothin to fuck with' after I swept a match with Marth.
>>
>>253511151
it was unintentional, but they discovered it and left it in because they thought no one would figure it out
>>
>>253505212
>>253505329
>>253506246
"It's a party game" is one of the only defenses I hear for Brawl.

It's slow? It's a party game, speed doesn't matter.
Tripping? It's a party game, it's supposed to be random.
Input lag? It's a party game, timing doesn't matter.
Lack of momentum? It's a party game, a solid physics engine doesn't matter.

Whenever I hear "It's a party game" I take that to mean "Party games are supposed to be poorly made."
>>
>>253511958
So that's the general concept. But I'm sure they have their own idea how to achieve that. I would like to hear what those are. Those that don't require any advance techniques.
>>
>>253497410
Not him, but a lot of people.
>>
>>253491012
Have you made a game?
>>
>>253511780
This. If you want the casuals to agree with you, make your argument in a form they can care about. They don't give a shit about tripping, and they have no clue what things like momentum or input lag even are. Quite simply, your complaints are utterly irrelevant to their own experience as far as they can tell.

>>253511958
You need to elaborate on that. I've played both Melee and Brawl quite a bit (more than most casuals but less than anyone who would call themselves competitive players, or so I would think), and I can distinguish no difference in pace between the two games. Perhaps you could try showing a side-by-side comparison so it doesn't look like just buzzwords?

>>253512319
How should I know? In another school the results could be exactly the opposite.

>>253512517
I take it to mean "I have no clue what the fuck those terms are or why I should have to be upset over them."
>>
>>253512517
Smash is a party in general, no matter how many times you cry and bitch about muh FGC, smash will never ever be a fighting game. Only reason the damn thing is at EVO is because of all the autists that show up.
>>
>>253508735
>Giving constructive input to try is make a game better is bad mmkay

Granted with all the shitflinging going on in /v/ and this thread it's kind of a lost cause
>>
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>>253512895
>and I can distinguish no difference in pace between the two games
Congratulations on being retarded i guess.
>>
>>253513168
Show me a comparison, then. As far as I can tell they play at exactly the same speed.
>>
>>253512895
>This. If you want the casuals to agree with you, make your argument in a form they can care about. They don't give a shit about tripping
I'm the guy you're quoting, and I care about tripping. I don't play Smash on any advance level, but even I realize things like tripping is pure bullshit.

But you're right about the other things. I don't know what momentum lag means. It kind of sounds like when you jump, and your character's jump speed is slower than their run speed. Can't even imagine what input lag is.
>>
>>253510047
I really don't understand what is so difficult to understand this term. It's been around for years when it comes to Smash.

If you don't have to basic skills in the english language to put 2 and 2 together and figure out what it means I pity you


Ironically this post itself is a case of elitism, lol
>>
>>253493128
>No one on this board actually prefers Brawl over Melee.
I do. I like the floatyness more than Melee's "everybody's got lead shoes" gameplay. Plus, it's got more characters, and is generally more fun to play in a 4 player FFA, which is what I play most of the time.
>>
>>253513342
Look at some videos on youtube. It's all there.
But if you played both games and still can't tell there's nothing that would help you.
>>
>>253491012

If everything you said were true and you being serious, that would be legitimate. You're not making a point
>>
>>253511020
Did you not go through this thread at all? Literally the exact opposite is happening in this thread.
>>
>>253491391

The only people I've heard say that is under the assumption Smash 4 is very similar to its demo.
>>
>>253513575
>4 player FFA
I hope you don't mean with CPUs, because Brawl's AI is so fucking badly designed that if you get somewhere they can't follow, they will just walk back and forth underneath you, absolutely refusing to fight each other, and then jump on you immediately when you come back down
>>
>>253513906
No, of course not. With 3 of my human, real-life friends.
>>
>>253510486
You're not wrong.

If I recall don't the japs wipe the floor every time they do a match against some western kiddie?
>>
>>253514035
Not really.
>>
>>253510047

It's a spreading term yes. That's like saying that calling things that unlock doors "keys" is a meme.
>>
>>253491267
Sakurai doesn't even consider it a fighter
>>
>>253514035
The US is better at Fighting Games than Japan in any game that isn't SF or Anime.
>>
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>>253510136
>>
>>253508159

>entitled
>for wanting something

Why is /v/ full of children
>>
>>253514247
So that leaves..
>>
>>253493707

Melee
>>
>>253514035
Any time that a Japanese player comes over it's in most people's contracts not to film any Exhibition game as they lose every time
>>
>>253497410
most of the 12.5 million sales agree with him
>>
Partygamefags, would you honestly play a party if it had shit like certain characters being able to manipulate their dice rolls or starting out with bonus stars or the like?


Even Party games have to have competent game design, the only difference is there's a much greater influence of luck, which you accept on the fact of it being a party game (And even then, stuff like Mario Party minigames most definitely have optimal ways to play)
>>
>>253514607

Marvel
Injustice
Smash
Killer Instinct
>>
>>253490592
the market these games has always been aimed for is the casual player. not some pimply freak that tries to make a sport out of it. sakurai is taking zero input from the minority.
>>
>>253514750
>certain characters being able to manipulate their dice rolls or starting out with bonus stars or the like?

Wii Part U is great actually thanks for asking.
>>
>>253514848
That's not much at all, but I think it evens out though
>>
>>253513612
I have played both, as I have said earlier- AND looked at videos of gameplay from both games. I can only assume that the supposed game speed is completely subjective and entirely dependent on the observer. If what you mean is factors like gravity or falling speed, I can see from the data that the differences are there but when I actually play the game the differences seem much smaller than the data suggests it would be. Even when I play with other people (who have also played both games at a better-than-casual-but-not-competitive level, mind you), it feels equally hectic in both games.

>>253514750
Handicaps have always been in the Mario Party series, though. Most people just don't give enough of a shit to notice that.
>>
>>253514731

Most just like that there's more characters, stages, item, and an adventure mode. If Brawl came out and it had melee's physics it would sell at least as much.
>>
>>253514731
The Majority of those 12.5 Million wouldn't give a shit if the game played like fucking Clay fighter. They're in it for the fanservice and the idea of Nintendo's biggest mascots beating the shit out of each other in a game that's very easy to pick up at face value.

You're ALWAYS gonna have that part of the fanbase regardless of what you do, so that isn't an excuse for the extensive casualization Brawl underwent
>>
>>253515030
Then why did it sell more than Melee or Smash 64?
>>
>>253514893

Really? Thank you for your contribution, I did not know this. I fully expected a deep, well-thought out competitive game.
>>
>>253515142
because the wii had a massive fucking install base you dumbass
>>
>>253515142

The Majority of those 12.5 Million wouldn't give a shit if the game played like fucking Clay fighter. They're in it for the fanservice and the idea of Nintendo's biggest mascots beating the shit out of each other in a game that's very easy to pick up at face value.
>>
>>253513342

If you yourself played Melee slowly, then Brawl is no different. If you got just a little faster in Melee and then played Brawl, then you would notice. And besides, the difference is actually there if you just LOOK at it.

If not, then never mind. Maybe this whole fuckery isn't for you. Just keep doing what you're doing and don't mind anyone else, but don't expect people to take your opinions seriously when it comes to talking about the speed and physics of the game.
>>
>>253490592
Instead of bitching that this game isn't similar enough to Melee, how about you:
a) Play Melee instead
b) Get good at playing Smash 4
>>
>>253515190
And most of those people only care for shovelware shit like wii sports. so I doubt they care about Smash
>>
>>253515142
Because the Wii had a fuckhuge install base dude. Did you know Melee had a 1 to 3 attach rate for the GC? Brawl's was about 1 to 10 or something.
>>
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>>253515398
>>
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>>253490592
>having your character randomly jump to 999% damage for no reason
When does this happen?
Is this a real thing, or is OP just speaking in retarded hyperbole for a strawman argument?
>>
>>253508478
Hey dude, can you tell me the date (even just an estimate) and city/state of that tournament? It would make searching for police reports of arrests occurring in a GameStop that involved an unwarranted search of a personal living space easier for me. There's a lot of things wrong with your story, but I'm not calling you a liar.

I'll wait.
>>
>>253516227
He's strawmanning to the extreme.
>>
But what if I just want to have fun?
>>
>>253490592
ITT: Autism, and not the high functioning kind.
>>
>>253516374
Then you wouldn't mind if the game was mechanically better.
>>
>>253515896
*teleports behind you*

"nothing personnel" i say, as i run my Vorpal Katana, folded over 5000000 times, through you

You begin to cry as you realize you have been defeated.

"heh what a coward you turned out to be" I scoff, walking away from your corpse.

"indeed" my blade howls in agreement.
>>
>>253515352
I have no clue of what you mean by "slowly" or "quickly", because I just focus on actually playing the game. "Getting good" doesn't matter much when you play for yourself first and foremost. While I do see differences in videos (albeit small ones), in practice I've found them to be irrelevant in all but the most situational of circumstances.

I'm saying all this because I like to think I represent the kind of person who's in the middle of the two extremes- they don't understand the grievances the tourneyfags have and question the claim that fixing those grievances would improve their own enjoyment of the game. Sure, a faster pace (whatever that means- do all the characters just move faster or something? If so, why not just make everyone faster instead of adding complex gimmicks like wavedashing or whatever) might be good for them, but what about everyone else? How do we stand to benefit from a faster-paced game if we don't notice what pace the game is going at anyway? If changes that big are going to be made, they have to benefit everyone equally, regardless of skill level.

And I don't know why Sakurai made the design choices that he did, but ast he hasn't done anything blatantly stupid (like making it that any damage beyond the 200% threshold is an instant KO with no exceptions) I am willing to accept them.
>>
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>>253491012

>I'm a professional competitive Mario Kart player
>>
>>253514731
I'll never get this argument
>Smash is relatively new and the Gamecube doesn't have a huge install base
"Melee sold like shit nobody likes that style of game"
>Melee makes a name for itself and tons of people buy Brawl on the system with a huge install base
"Look at all these SALES god damn everyone loved Brawl more and they definitely knew how the game played on release"

A higher percentage of Gamecube owners had Melee than Wii owners had Brawl
>>
>>253506686
> y-you guys are p-playing wrong
>you n-need to have fun m-my way
> b-but the d-developer said so
>>
>>253516697
You are not the average player. It is well fucking known that brawl is a slugfest compared with melee, and that's not some tourneyfag talk.
Everybody can see it, you can't apparently, but that's your problem.
>>
>>253508159
>But it'd be completely different from the slow, dream-like floating characters do in every other Smash game.

Besides the first 2?
>>
>>253514750

Party game isn't even a genre, so I don't understand why people use that excuse.
>>
>>253516906
>I-If I s-s-s-studder t-that will m-make the o-other's guy o-o-opinion seem s-s-silly!
>>
>>253516374

Do you mind if other people have different fun?
>>
>>253506686
> pls hav fun the right way
>>
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>>253508478
Hey bro, could you answer
>>253516295
for me? I feel what happened was highly illegal by the PD of that city.

Or you could have just remembered things incorrectly. Which is strange since everything else is recalled so vividly.

But please reply.
>>
>>253506686
>All dis casual elitism

The sheer fact alone that Sakurai has acknowledged that he dumbed down Brawl far too much and that Smash 4 has actively been made to be closer to Melee to become a balance of the two automatically makes your argument retarded
>>
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>anything can happen in this action-packed fighting game
>>
>>253516697

OP has argued that the changes would be good for everyone, characters and players and the game in genera. That we DON'T need any glitches or techniques to make it better, just simple changes. Did you even read it, man? And how do you not know what pace you're going at?

You're either fucking with us or you actually just can't see a difference. If you're fucking with us, then 10/10 full bait master, would read again.

If you STILL can't tell the difference, then never mind any of this and just play it how you want. It clearly doesn't concern you and in the end it won't matter to you one way or the other if you can't notice any sort of change, whether it's there or not.
>>
>tfw casual elitists are worse than tourneyfags
>>
>Sakurai watching smash at EVO
>Reggie making a video wishing the players good luck
>But nintendo doesn't want people to play it like that!

Smash 4 is gonna be way less floaty and faster, Nintendo knows that the casuals don't give a fuck so they might as well make whatever changes to get tourneyfags to buy it.
>>
>>253517954
I hope they still allow Melee in EVO.
>>
>>253517835
Funny how on /v/ where casualization is usually met with such vitriol, it's the exact opposite when it comes to Smash.
>>
>>253511554
>The chances of a future Smash game being like Melee are near zero unless the competitive scene quadruples in size overnight to the point that ignoring it would cause a severe dent in the game's profits.

lol that's funny, because that's happened recently. Maybe not overnight, but the comp scene just got fucking huge again.

Go talk to your family or friends that don't know anything about video games. They don't know what a Wii U is. They think it's the next addition to the Gameboy. Why should this game be marketed to casuals, when most of them don't know what the fuck a Wii U is?

If smash 4 has a good competitive environment, i'm buying it. That's as simple as it gets. And I don't own a Wii U, so that's dropping $300+ on something.
>>
>>253517954
I wish NoA had more input into the games, they clearly love the Melee scene and want to do so much with it
>>
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>>253517596
>the craziest four-player fighting game of all time
>>
>>253518386

I honestly think that Sakurai will listen to some of the feedback from the e3 tournament.
>>
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>>253510136

I'll just keep playing Melee and P:M and not spend on a new system and game that will have no replay value 18 months from now :]
>>
>>253518504
Will he listen to balance feedback after the 3DS version comes out?

I bet he screwed up C. Falcon again.
>>
>>253518436
Oh man, i forgot the coin mode even existed.
Did anyone actually like that shit?
>>
>>253518246
This.


And to top it off, what's innately wrong with a game being able to be enjoyed at all levels of play? I know that wavedashing and other techniques never hurt my enjoyment of Melee even though I couldn't do them myself.
>>
>>253518436
> Nintendo's biggest stars are all here! Mario, Link Donkey Kong, the Ice Climbers
>>
>>253493990
>yoshi accidentally swallows his tongue
>peach breaks a heel and falls over
>sonic trips over and breaks his face
>Snake accidentally blows himself up
I could get behind this
>>
>>253490592
It's a kids fighting game.
If you wanna compete, play
>street fighter
>king of fighters
>tekken
>soul calibur
>skull girls
>capcom vs _______

all of these are fighters with skill, no items, flat stages, and all the tech options you could wish for.
Smash is a fighter, but it's meant to have fun.
All the dumb fucks who want this cutesy fighter to have real life physics, cancels, wave dashing and all the other shit you can get from the greentexted games....should just play those games.

Fuck...I enjoy throwing exploding pills
I enjoy a stage that moves and forces you to keep up.

I even enjoy the fact that I can play this game with little kids, and they can pick up and win with literally NO TALENT

the fun of the game is that you can play it with ANYBODY!!!

ESPECIALLY SMASH BRAWL.

Tourny fags act so faggy when it comes to this game.
If you want better features, better moves and more depth, play an actual fucking FIGHTING GAME
>>
>>253491012
Have I been on this shit board long enough to know your pasta?
>>
>>253518874
Don't you see that smash is a very very different fighting game experience than what you would usually get?
Like, the whole recovery system, platforms, and the way DI works. That makes it worth playing to me.
>>
>>253517004
I never said I was average- that's the casualfags you're talking about. I said that I see myself as having a stance in between casuals and competitive players and want to understand how making the game better for competitive play would improve the game for all players and not just competitive ones.

>Everybody can see it, you can't apparently, but that's your problem.

I question that both on the claim that everybody can see it and that it's a problem. But since I can only viably dispute the latter, what's so bad about being a slugfest, exactly? From what I've heard here, a faster paced game would just mean matches would end more quickly.

>>253517694
I understand the not needing glitches or techniques part, and as for the pace perhaps I've just gotten so used to the pace of both games that I'm just not able to tell them apart as well as you might be able to. I don't know why those changes haven't been implemented already if they'd have no objective drawbacks to them, but I am in no position to question the developers and would like to think an omission that big would have some kind of rational explanation for it, even if it's something as inane as "it's too expensive to put in physics that advanced". Sakurai may have a reputation for being a master ruseman, but he's not the kind of guy to make the physics what they are now just to spite a small group of players.

>>253518343
I suppose it's the same reason why MK8 would be marketed to casuals- to get them to buy the Wii U. Whether it'll work or not is something we'll have to find out soon enough.
>>
>>253491012
nigga.....learn to play gran turismo.

You really just got butthurt of a cart racer.

Or is it the one game that you're good at and want there to be a tourney scene so you can dominate casuals that just came to play for a good time?
>>
>>253511554
You are absolutely correct, except...

>the Gamecube wasn't meant to have the mass appeal that the Wii did

but muh carrying handle!
>>
>>253518874
>this is MY game
>you can go play one of THOSE games
besides you can still enjoy throwing exploding pills in melee you fucking retard
>>
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>>253493990
>there are people who actually believe this
>>
>>253518874
>Tourny

I notice a strong correlation between people who can spell tourney right and their ability to know what the fuck they're talking about. But anyways, none of those fighters offers the unique fighting experience that Smash does. It's what garners such a huge crowd for the game along with the fanservice
>>
>>253518874
>flat stages
Confirmed for knowing nothing about competitive smash, opinion can be safely ignored
>>
>>253519128
I never got the reasoning behind the handle either. It's not like it was heavy enough to justify a handle anyway.
>>
>>253518692
wario
>>
>>253518504
Not a chance. This is a guy so self assurred that he has mouthed off and refused to follow decisions his bosses dolled out. He rrfused to follow even Miyamoto on at least two occasions and we all know no one doubts Miyamoto. He's seen as the word of god over there. Samurai doesn't take outside input. He's a madman.
>>
What you can complain about in order

King of Fighters
Street Fighter
Tekken
Soul Caliber
Marvel vs Capcom
Skull Girls
Smash Bros
anything else

find your favorite game and you can complain about the below without real backlash
>>
>>253519495
>(citation needed)
>>
>>253519495

>He's a madman.

I bet he even lays down on the floor while playing smash.
>>
The biggest change in 4 seems to be that is becoming a lot more based aroung zoning and projectiles. Just look at all the newcomers with insane zoning potential: Palutena, Robin, Rosalina, Megaman, Gunner Mii, Pacman.
>>
>>253519657
Soo its gonna be brawl 2.0 electric boogaloo with more projectile spawn. OH JOY.
>>
>>253518874
I see you're too dumb to understand the difference between a skill ceiling and the skill floor.

Smash by nature (it's basic inputs and items/etc) has a very low skill floor and like you said. That makes it accessible to those new to it and fun for everyone. Nobody wants the skill floor to increase, that's fine and part of what sets Smash apart from other games.

All "tourny fags" want is just a decently high skill ceiling, where they can have fun and enjoy the game further at a higher level past mindless button mashing. There's objectively nothing wrong with having a higher skill ceiling.
>>
>>253493048
>The system
>Where votes control shit
It's 0.000000001% your fault

The blame lies with the whole country
>>
>>253519885
i thought it was said that projectiles were nerfed
>>
>>253519657
I played as Megaman, his projectiles are shitty. I hope he gets buffed.
>>
>>253519885
Input lag is a per-character thing and not a globlal constant; watch the Lucina video, she moves like a Melee character.
>>
>>253519063
Smash is different.
That's why i like it on a more fun and relaxed level.
If i wanna get serious, and cut loose, I play actual fighters.
Shit, I even like playing Coin Battle.
I like having people come over and play with me and my bro. Even when they don't know how to play.
Not to dominate them, but to teach, and everyone having fun not constantly having "advanced tech" being used against them.
I appreciate what it was made to be.
But when people take the game Waaaay to seriously, it kills the fun

I bet some faggots even want a full on parry system in play.

>>253519139
but i like brawl, you bitch.

>>253519254
>>253519898
This is why I complain.
Because of faggots. I have to share this game with faggots.
I've even played with gay people before.
I hate playing with faggots

>no hazards
>stock only

Dude....some stages i like playing just because of the music.
>>
>>253518874
>real life physics
you fucking what
in real life I can't flop my body towards the ground and skid against any surface I wish, nor can I punch somebody and have them rocket out of my sight, resulting in them exploding
>>
>>253520017
Damage nerfs don't mean much when you have characters like Robin or Palutena who can throw any kind of projectile in the game.
>>
>>253491426
They fucking are, man.
>>
>>253490947
Yeah that's just no true, the endess bitching that it's not melee 2.0 is all the proof anyone could ever need.
>>
>>253520201
You honestly think competitive players don't go a few rounds on Big Blue once in a while? Just because they don't do it in a tourney doesn't mean they never play other stages. Flat stages aren't even the popular ones
>>
>>253520201
Then we're just talking opinions here.
"it kills the fun" for you, so that means there's no competition to be had for anyone?
>>
>>253520201
Want to hear a funny idea? It's a MULTIPLAYER game, you're not required to play with those you don't want to.

Instead of being a faggot yourself, why not properly respond and answer why (even from a sales standpoint) having more ways to enjoy a game in the form of a higher skill cap?
>>
>>253520017
Then why Robin can get kills by spamming downward projectiles?
>>
>>253520428
Who are you quoting?
>>
>>253520201
>have fun MY WAY
>>
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>>253518436
Why doesn't Nintendo have Smash listed as a party game on their website?
>>
>Casual elitist

This fucking term is so stupid, there is nothing elite about playing a game casually.
>>
>>253520603
I thought the strength of his/her magic was compensated by the fact that it can only be used a limited number of times before it stops working. Imagine (for example) Samus running out of ammo for her Missiles, or Fox's Blaster being disabled because he forgot to bring more power cells.
>>
>>253520201
>I've even played with gay people before.
Holy fuck, that's rough.
>>
>>253520201
Nigga why are you typing like you're making a poem.
>>
>>253520858
He/she is going to be really OP in 1 versus 1 matches.
>>
>>253520201
Oh shit, you called them faggots, they're points meann nothing now,
>>
>>253520858
His tome runs out after a while and his sword runs out of strength and is replaced by a Bronze Sword. He plays like a glass cannon that peters out if you play recklessly.
>>
>>253520809
There is when you lord it over those with a competitive mindset and say it's the only way the game is meant to be played. Why can no one understand this simple term?
>>
>>253520809
Of course not, playing casually is fine. Casual elitism is when you claim that casually is the right way to play, that those who don't play casually are tourneyfags who suck the fun out of the game.
>>
>>253521097
Or absolutely terrible depending on how many charges he gets and how he regains said charges. If he loses it till his next life that's awful game design IMO
>>
>>253520809
You are correct, except the casual elistists force others to play it in their way only.

Pretty ironic, huh?
>>
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>>253490592
Yeah, but why are you posting this? You said yourself that Smash 4 seemed fast-paced. It has already been officially said that the physics have been put between Melee and Brawl, jumping has been made less floaty, gravity is higher, the pace is faster, and they removed tripping. 4 has the capability of surpassing Melee.
>>
>>253520201
>I hate playing with faggots
Then you must really hate when you play solo, because you're the biggest faggot in this thread.
>I CAN'T ENJOY THE GAME UNDER THESE CONDITIONS
I'm a tourneytard, and the only time I don't enjoy Smash is when people either spam moves or sandbag.
>>
>>253519119
>learn to play gran turismo
There is a big gran turismo tourney scene, right?
>>
>>253518874

You play metroid to fast. That's not the right way to play; play Sonic instead.
>>
>>253511780

I'll give it a shot.

Before I explain what better physics would entail let's just focus on movement. Better movement options just means giving players more control over their character's ability to be where they want to be when they want to be there. The reason this is important at all is because the most basic winning strategy in Smash and in Fighting Games in general is positioning yourself on screen so that you dodge your opponent's attacks while hitting them with yours, i.e. you want to be outside of their range while they are attacking and inside of your range while you are attacking. This is called spacing or "footsies."

In Melee this spacing game takes place at higher speeds and over a much larger area than most 2d fighters, which usually have characters duke it out in a plain hallway, and that's one of its big draws. Spacing is a very unique experience in Smash. Melee in particular is the tournament darling because it has tons of movement options that let you position yourself all over a stage against an opponent who is also trying to outmaneuver you to get that spacing advantage.

Some of the good movement options in Melee without getting too technical:
Dash Dancing - Being able to change directions after dashing without doing a slow turnaround.
Wavedashing - Doing a quick, controlled slide along the ground.
Wavelanding - Same mechanic as wavedashing, allows you to do a controlled slide across a platform.
Crouch Canceling - More of an anti-movement technique, allows you to tank a hit in place and react quickly.
In Melee jumping out of a run also allowed you to retain your running momentum so that you could move much faster through the air than in 64, Brawl, or Smash4.
L-canceling isn't really a movement option but it speeds up your recovery after landing while doing an aerial move, allowing you to act sooner and drastically speeding up the whole game.

(1/2?)
>>
>/v/ on normal games
FUCKING CASUALS ARE KILLING THE INDUSTRY DUMBING DOWN GAMES
>/v/ on smash/fighting games
FUCKING TOURNEYFAGS TRYING TO MAKE THE GAMES TOO HARD, IT SHOULD BE MORE DUMBED DOWN
>>
>>253524302

Better movement options in Smash4 would either replicate or replace the above options as tools for spacing. The brilliant thing about wavedashing is that you can control exactly how long your slide is with the analog stick. Smash4 could have some kind of analogous repositioning mechanic that serves the same purpose using fewer inputs. Another example might be a more precise way to traverse platforms than jumping and landing on and then running across them.
>>
>>253524630
>FUCKING TOURNEYFAGS NOT STAYING IN /VG/
Fixed that for ya.
Now fuck off.
>>
>>253519639
It's common knowledge that Sakurai wanted melee adventure mode to be like subspace but miyamoto said no one plays smash for single player and only caved to it in brawl because they needed sakurai to pull another melee success. He also wanted kirby to be yellow to stand out from the background while remaining andro colored. Pink was a girl color abroad and didnt want to push away young boys by making it a girly game. Sakurai insisted on a flying clitorus though.
>>
>>253525256
so basically sakurai doesn't know what the fuck he is doing and miyamoto was the mastermind?
>>
>>253524767
Wouldn't it be easier to just have more control over regular dashes instead of creating an entirely new form of movement? Maybe not "stop on a dime" control, but perhaps some kind of skid to a stop sort of thing.
>>
>>253525256
He asked for a source.
>>
>>253525256
It's not like Miyamoto always makes sound decisions always. His interference with Paper Mario Sticker Star contributed to that game's problems.
>>
>>253495953
Leave my Husbando alone
>>
>>253511656
>The FGC is caught up in that classic definition of a 2d fighting game because that IS the definition of a 2d fighting game

By who's authority? Then what are we supposed to call the assortment of games that are about martial arts but which don't follow Capcom's model to a T? Why does an entire genre have to cater to a specific, narrow subset of it so much.
>>
>>253524767

When tourneyfags complain about the physics of the new Smash games they're usually referring to hitstun (how longer attacks stun characters for), hitlag (how long the game freezes after someone gets hit), fall speed, airspeed, ledge mechanics (not getting into it), and some other tangible intangibles. Most of these complaints are that the game is slower and following up a successful hit with another hit before hitstun ends is impossible, thereby negating combos.
>>
>>253513342
>i believe in something so i must be right
>>
>>253525426

That existed in Melee, you could crouch to end your run and then perform any action, but was removed in Brawl and Smash4.
>>
>>253525597
>By who's authority?
The FGC.
>>
>weyou
has no games
>>
>>253525660
I still don't understand why a slow game must necessarily be bad. Wouldn't a fast game have its own flaws?

>>253525839
If that was true, then why bother eavedashing or whatever in the first place? Regular dash-cancelling that way could be done faster and with fewer inputs, and if dash controls were changed so the dash stopped the moment you took your finger off the control stick then it would be perfect- at least, unless I'm misunderstanding you.
>>
>>253526452
You're right, it's a possible solution, especially since Sakurai has stated the technical prowess needed to play at high level melee was one of the reasons he cut that stuff off. Most competitive minded players would definitely be alright with that compromise.
>>
>>253526452
It's not necessarily the slowness that is the problem, it's the defensiveness. When the game's mechanics favor defense too much, the game just becomes a boring campfest where there is no incentive to actually attack, like Brawl.
>>
>>253525447
On phone at work. Use google. Everyone else knows this.
>>
>>253490592
>movement options
You just want every character to glide around on the floor like each has a rocket up their ass even though some characters are meant to be slow for balance reasons.
>>
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>>253528956
>"balance" reasons
That's why 90% of the slow characters suck fucking ass in Brawl, right? Nice balance.
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>>253529243
>tierfag

Fuck tiers. I never used anyone past C on that chart and was fine.
>>
>>253526452

You aren't misunderstanding me, but I should clarify something. The kind of dash movement you are describing was actually the precursor de facto movement system of the first dominant player, Ken. He rarely wavedashed and just dash danced around, pivoting, dash canceling, etc to get where he want to go to throw out strong, inescapable moves. However, when you dash you commit to facing the direction you are dashing in. You can wavedash backwards and forwards without changing direction, which is a small but important advantage in many situations.

Wavedashing would not be necessary with the system you are describing in place, but that system was removed from Brawl and currently does not exist in Smash4.

As for why the speed is an issue, the hit stun and shield stun already very low, so you can act after being hit fairly quickly allowing you to punish many attacks. The slower speed means that you can basically react to any head on attack, so head on attacks are basically made pointless by the combination of slow speed, low shield stun, and low hitstun. In Brawl pretty much all aggression is pointless. In the finals of the Invitational we saw just how dominant campy play could be. It's a direct result of the game's speed.
>>
>>253529523
Oh come on, I figured even the biggest casualfags could grasp the concept of characters better objectively better than others. Let's not revert to 2008 Tiers don't exist bullshit.
>>
>>253529523
Play for money some time :]
>>
>>253529523
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Apex_2014#Brawl_singles
you think its just chance that 5 of the top 8 players used metaknight?
>>
>>253528102
That sounds exaggerated. If everyone is defending then it'll just be a draw all the time. And how exactly do you camp in Smash? It's not exactly like you can hide by the sniper rifle spawn point or something like that.
>>
>>253525926
Why started around Capcom games. Amazing coincidence don't ya think?
>>
>>253530376
>That sounds exaggerated. If everyone is defending then it'll just be a draw

That's the point, that is BORING. Having the game devolve into getting a kill and stalling the match out as much as possible via ledgestalling and because the game is so biased towards a defensive playstyle is not fun for anyone
>>
>>253529243
Then the slow heavy characters need to be balanced better. Unless you're saying Bowser should be zipping around the areas like Sonic the goddamn Hedgehog?
>>
>>253530376

Here's an example from Melee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

This stage is now banned because you can use this tactic against a lot of characters with no risk.

In Brawl this is basically the norm rather than a banworthy exception. Brawl is played 3 stocks 8 minutes and it's not uncommon for matches to go to time.
>>
>>253529743
Wouldn't people compensate by more cunning methods then? Perhaps by feigning a retreat at high damage and perform a surprise attack as the opponent for close, for example. And I'm sure it could go both ways- if the speed was too fast it would be almost impossible to avoid attacks at all and every match would boil down to who got the first hit in. If anything that would be even less fun than a slugfest.

As for the invitational, I figure they still have time to refine things, and players camped mostly because it was what they were used to doing in Brawl. I would bet if they chose players not from the competitive scene there would be little to no camping whatsoever.
>>
>>253530376
compare and contrast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmGKl84HYt0
with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUSwaCv7mm8
>>
>>253525449
Right but point remainss that sakurai doesn't heed any ones opiniond. If he'll ignore miyamoto whose suggestions are more dictating then no chance he cares what fans think
>>
>>253531020
Having movement options isn't the same as being fast.
>>
>>253531020
I wonder why Sakurai doesn't give heavy characters armor. Like letting them not flinch on every weak jab.
>>
>>253490592
chill brah
>>
>>253531172
The tournament wasn't serious to begin with.

If items are allowed, it always degnerates to a camp fest.
>>
>>253531236
Some do I believe.
>>
>>253531236
He actually did that for Bowser, he has several super armor moves now. Which is awesome because P;M did the same thing.
>>
>>253531236
I don't know, but one consideration might be that it makes them overpowered in 4-player free-for-all.

If you ever played Brawl- with a bunch of people, you'd know how dumb it can be. Granted, that's an extreme example, but the point is that 1v1 balance probably isn't the only consideration.
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>>253531172
I would watch the two grand finals sets in >>253531193 for a much more informative visual aid as to the differences in a fast offensively oriented game versus a slow defensively oriented game. Keep in mind that these guys are some of the best and they do what they do because there's 6 and 12 respective years of competitive metagame telling them to on top of their years of personal experience.
>>
>>253531996
It'd be a fair trade off for being bigger tradeoffs and slower moves in general.
>>
>>253531996
How can it be overpowered if everyone is hitting on each other anyway? Bowser has a big-enough hitbox to get hit by everything, so the armor may as well be useless and just a small adventage in free-for-all.
>>
>>253530376

Since you seem interested, here's a brawl match and a melee match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwGAk_hbFc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo7cCKasVmo
>>
>>253532046
Yes let's intentionally let people glide across the floor at mach 12 even if they're meant to be slow.
>>
>>253532702
Wavedashing is only faster than dashing for literally 4 out of Melee's 26 characters, none of them being bigger characters like Bowser or Ganondorf. Stop with these ignorant comments.
>>
>>253532918
So it's a move that people want in to make broken characters even more broken? Wow.
>>
>>253531086
>>253531193
>>253532072
My flash player is acting up again, so can someone basically sum up what you mean by "camping"? From what I could make out in the video at >>253531086 it seemed like just staying in the top of the level where Ganondorf couldn't get to, which to me seems more like the Peach player was just exploiting Ganondorf's heavy weight and poor jumping skills more than anything else. I don't see how simply exploiting the weaknesses of a character is banworthy. Same for the first vid in >>253531193- the excessive defensive factor seemed mostly derived from Meta Knight's admittedly overpowered ability to perform multiple midair jumps and glide (and I know that the latter has been removed).

I think I see what you mean about speed, though- Melee's speed makes all the character movement look halting and jerky, while Brawl's is slower but looks more smooth and the animations flow into each other better. Mind you, that's just my opinion and looking nice doesn't win anything (plus, it could just be the difference in technology between the Wii and the GCN showing.) I never seemed to notice when I was actually playing though- and still don't. Could I have just gotten too used to the difference to notice it or am I just dense?
Maybe it's because my playstyle is more of a simple brute force approach dedicated to KOing the opponent before I get KO'd myself, but I never seemed to encounter anyone using that strategy, myself included.
>>
>>253533004
See>>253529743
>>
Would Smash 4 become unplayable to them if there were elements that appealed to the competitive player included?

Or I should ask do casuals hate Melee now because it was tainted by tournyfags and Sakurai declared it to be a failure? There were some things I preferred in Melee over Brawl that weren't even game mechanic related.
>>
>>253533952
*unplayable to casuals/non comp crowd
>>
>>253533064

Camping is maintaining an advantage by not moving from a key point, often high ground. In the case of Ganon-Peach your strategic assessment is correct and the same strategy can be used to even greater effect with Jigglypuff. The problem is that this dynamic can cause some matchups to be 100-0, which is garbage for competitive play. Jigglypuff can hit a slow character on DK64 once and then run away for 8 minutes. It's expected to play to your character's strengths but extreme situations like this actually ruin the game. Nobody likes to watch or play it. That's why the legal stage list in Melee is fairly small.

You probably don't notice the difference when you play because, and I truly do not mean this as an insult, in Melee you've never taken full advantage of all that movement has to offer whereas Brawl offers nothing to begin with. Try going to a local tournament, some of them have both Brawl and Melee so you can play pro Brawl players and pro Melee players and feel the difference yourself.
>>
>>253533064
A quick look at the wiki told me as much. Still, it seems like the biggest problem with the Brawl matches was the fact that Meta Knight was just plain badly balanced in every concievable way, between the attacks all having top priority, multiple jumps, and the speed he performs all his attacks- even a casual can take a quick look at those matches and see that balance was not the first thing on anyone's mind there (which is understandable since Sakurai and his people seem more interested in how fun the character would be to play over any other considerations).My opinion is that it would have been wiser to just ban Meta Knight completely and be done with it, since the balance team was apparently asleep when he was implemented.

I've never gone to any tournaments, partly because no such tournaments exist anywhere near me and partly because I just don't find myself interested in them. I play mostly to have fun and relax, and the pressure that being in a tournament playing for money suggests just doesn't seem right to me. Besides, since I'm not a pro at either game in any sense of the word I already know I'd lose almost immediately.

Tourneyfags, I'd like to ask something- what makes the competitive scene of smash appealing to you?
>>
>>253535407
meant to reply to >>253534615
>>
That brawl gameplay almost put me to sleep, Christ. I truly see the light when people say they need it less floaty
>>
>>253535407

As a melee fan, it's fast. Fast gameplay is fun to watch. And it's full of action, watching some one get knocked into the air and then comboed and spiked is awesome. Kills are fun to watch, especially jigglypuffs wall of pain, marth's ken combo, and shine spikes. Combos by them selves are entertaining. Also an intensely high level skill is fun to watch and you can disect the players decisions and thought process. New tech being developed and then put to use in ways that advance the game is awesome.
>>
>>253534615
Or you can watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqYesA_SAI
which is is like a perfect example of someone who's probably like the best among his friends against someone who actually knows the ins and outs of the mechanics.
>>
>>253535407
Meta Knight was banned for a little while, and it did lead to an improvement in the metagame, but the guys who enforced that rule disbanded and the whole thing sort of fell apart. Not to mention the opposition from MK mains. Ultimately I feel as though banning Meta Knight would have been the smart choice, but competitive Brawl is pretty much dead now so it's a moot point.
>>
>>253535407
The combo game is fun
When you're playing friendlies styling on people results in some of the zaniest things you can imagine and its hilarious.
>>
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>implying The World Warrior was already catering to the FGC and "muh traditional fighting game legitimacy" the instant it was created

>implying The World Warrior wasn't just a fun quarter-pusher for playing *casually* with friends with *casual* balance and *casual* mechanics

>implying combos weren't an accidental mechanic that happened to be discovered by players, became embedded in the culture, and happened to gain acceptance

>implying Melee should somehow not deserve the same legitimacy that traditional fighting games receive by virtue of seniority and the FGC being conservative
>>
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>>253490592
>>
>>253497064
>>It means "anyone can beat anyone, even a casual beating a pro player"
hahaha wow good bait you fuckin had me going until this, I'm serious
>>
>>253497064
There is no game like that

Someone who spend more time grinding that thing will always be better than that casual.

Trying to argue this is fucking ridiculous.
>>
>>253535407
I don't play legit tournaments where there is prize money, but I did take time to understand how to do some of the techniques or just understanding of things such as DI and just stuck to playing friendlies or locals.

When it all comes down, at the end I just find it fun. I liked the thrill of how fast paced and the "it's just you and me" feel with stage hazards and items out of the way. The combo mechanic was neat, the objective was unique and how it was but also was not a fighter at the same time. There's really nothing like Smash.

That said I love playing the game free-for-all with items too. If we factored content, Brawl wins for me by the large margin. But I just didn't have as much fun as it's predecessor when it came to controlling the actual character.

Tournyfags as in the kid who read a tier list online and thinks he knows shit and forcing everyone to go "no items fox only" is the worst. But casual elitist are just as bad.
>>
>>253537423
Call me a casual, but without items and stage hazards it just doesn't feel quite as thrilling- I like the way that random element keeps me on my toes. But I suppose that if Sakurai didn't intend people to play without items there wouldn't be an option to set their frequency or turn them off. (I'm pretty sure there was already a term for casual elitists- "scrubs", if memory serves. Has that taken on a different connotation or something?)
>>
>>253538023
Scrub just means a bad player, competitive or casual.
>>
>>253538023
2 different kinds of thrills. I enjoy both. I don't see how some folks find it difficult, or why some feel pressured they have to like the other.

If Smashboards taught you that definition of Scrubs than I am not surprised. (Or here i guess...)

A "scrub" is not referring to a bad specifically, but a bad player who refuses to improve but still complains about it.

Using it to describe a casual is completely incorrect.
>>
>>253531193
God PeePee's dash dancing with Marth is so amazing
>>
>>253538730
No, TVTropes did. Maybe the same people who frequent those boards made the page for "Scrub" over there. I think it's because most people only like one kind or another- although I may be one of those people, I'm at least trying to get an intellectual understanding of why they play the way they do even if I personally find it unappealing.
>>
>>253535407
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSf2mgkRm7Q&list=PLoUHkRwnRH-IXbZfwlgiEN8eXmoj6DtKM

I know you said your flash player was acting up and you might not have time to watch all of it but check out this documentary series, it's a pretty good example of how tourneyfags aren't anti-fun people and is great insight into how Melee has constantly evolved over 13 years
>>
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Can we just get down to brass tax and just add Trish Stratus to smash already?

It's long overdue
>>
>>253540548
>muh greatest women's champion of all time
>>
>>253539487
I'll have to try and do that sometime- I swear, it's like Adobe deliberately made it to be as laggy and uncooperative as possible.

While my main questions have been answered to my satisfaction, there's a few more things I want to know your opinion on.

1. What's your take on how the customized movesets could impact the tournament scene? In theory, it could cause two people with the same character to have moves that function in entirely different manners, whether it's variations of the same move or completely different ones (like with Palutena or the Miis). I guess the same question could also be asked about those equippable items, but I don't know how extensive their effects might be.
2. What would the tournament viability of a "cage-match" style of stage be? To clarify, I'm imagining a stage that is entirely boxed in and played in Stamina mode, which would discourage some forms of camping and edge-hogging. Would this work for a tournament or would it go too far against the standard format?
3. Given that the AI characters generated from Amiibos appear to be capable of learning new strategies and can reach a far higher level than normal AI players, could they be used as a form of training to prepare for more skilled opponents?
>>
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>>253541019
>this entire post
>>
>>I don't want to do that because Sakurai said this is a party game, not a fighting game
>And the law says street racing is illegal. Doesn't stop fast car fanatics from doing it. Never will

But that doesn't mean the government has to support street racing.
>>
>>253541246
What's wrong with it? Is it just too early to get concrete answers for them, or did I just say something stupid?
>>
>>253539487
>>253541019
Why not just use the HTML5 player option? Flash is old and busted.

Also:
>Palutena gets actual moves
>Mario's Down+B is just FLUDD for all 3.
>>
>>253541019
I think custom movesets will make up a big part of the Smash 4 meta, as long as it's not blatantly unbalanced or tedious to set up at tournaments.

A stamina mode match on a boxed in stage just wouldn't be very fun to watch. It takes away the most unique aspect of Smash (the knockback and recovery) and it just boils down to which player can deal the most damage first.

Even with the learning that the Amiibos do, AI will probably still be too limited to do anything more than grinding tech skill on. I could potentially see some Amiibo side tournaments where players pit their Amiibos against each other though.
>>
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>>253535407

Smash is like a window into someone's mind. You can see their hopes, their fears, their habits, and in their adaptation you can see yourself. It's a mental race, like freeform blitz chess or some shit. Plus me and my pic related have basically the best time ever making each other better and better at the game.
>>
>>253490592
So another thread about self proclaimed pros taking Smash Bros far too serious.
>>
>>253541838
I see. It could be interesting to see how the different moveset variants stack up against each other if nothing else. Seeing that none of them appear to be flat upgrades over the basic versions, they could have some potential for keeping opponents guessing over what moves you actually have.

I should have guessed that the cage match idea sounded better in my head. Worth a try sharing here, I guess. As for the Amiibos, an amiibo-only tournament could be good as a side-event or something- or even a doubles match with one human and one amiibo on each team.
>>
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>>253491012
Two words: F-Zero.
>>
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>>253511020
Someone, apparently, was not taught to read threads before posting. Lurk moar is the only thing constructive that I can say that may affect your posting habits.
>>
>>253491012
>Double Dash
Mario Kart Wii was the most competitive.
>>
Really, who the fuck actually plays games at parties? What are you guys who do this, 7?
>>
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>>253490592
>god damn casual smash elitists

head, fuck, etc.
>>
>>253490592
>And the law says street racing is illegal. Doesn't stop fast car fanatics from doing it.
What kind of argument is this?
>Law says killing is wrong, but I like it so you can't stop me, I'm right
Holy fucking shit
>>
>another Smash Bros. whining thread

Simply epic, OP.
>>
>>253544939
>slowfags just mad because they can't go fast
>>
>>253507225
>sheer force of tantrum
>people donated to a fundraiser for cancer of almost $100,000, and get accepted to get to evo
>Smash is valued as a spectator sport, enjoyed by the viewers, and players
>smash stays at evo
>somehow this is throwing a tantrum
ok, the only one throwing a tantrum is the vocal minority of the anti-tourneyfags. It just so happens to be that Sakurai is one too. So you feel justified.
>>
>>253546189
And at least Sakurai can express himself in a non-retarded way. And I've never even seen a tourney in my life. Both extremes are retarded anyhow.
>>
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>>253547709
>And at least Sakurai can express himself in a non-retarded way.
what does that even mean
>>
Friendly reminder that tourneyfags:

>Wanted a refund on their cancer research donations if Melee didn't make it into Evo 2013.
>Asked if the winner of the E3 Smash 4 tournament would be alone and vulnerable because he won with a ruleset that consenting adults agreed to.
>Got infuriated when the tournament settings of the host did not match the ruleset of their favorites.
>Consider Melee better than Brawl just because it's better competitively or say Brawl is shit because it's bad competitively when there are many beneficial tweaks to the game such as clone diversification.
>Sometimes are so ironically casual they cannot locate every stage on Melee or Brawl.
>Will go to tournaments where the host selects items on and do something akin to picketing so that the 12 people that signed up to having items on now have to conform to the will of four people.
>Will verbally attack you if you do not match them in how you play Smash (different control scheme, using Mr. G&W, preferring Brawl or N64 over Melee).
>In the end, value money over unbridled fun.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt to know this does not mean all of them, but it contains most of them, just like how Christians are expected not to steal, but some do.
>>
>>253549742
>haha this is sure to get them riled up
>>
>>253550086
That story about tournaments, 12 people, and 5 people is a personal experience. Just find people that were a part of the (now closed) website of Brawlsnapshots. One was named Whipedcream. He hosted it and made the change.
>>
>>253550332
Why should we care about this one website nobody here has ever heard of?
>>
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>>253490837

And so they did.
>>
>>253549742
Friendly reminder that to everyone with taste, tourneyfag or not, Brawl is a vastly inferior game
>>
>>253497064

I think you got Smash Bros confused with Mario Party m8
>>
>>253491391
I want a Melee HD port with online (and buffs for shitty characters like Kirby and Roy) too but I also want Smash 4. Problem?
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